Studio Concerns

[SOGdrummer]

We are currently in the studio to record our 2nd CD, only the 2nd time I have been involved in recording in this manner (other than live performances in the past). The first time I was limited to one or two runs of each track cutting the "scratch" tracks...later wished I had more time to clean up or add to the tracks.

This time we cut each tracks basics paying particular attention to time (using a click) and now I find myself listening to the rough cuts and wishing I could add some additional fills. I am also not entirely happy with some of the sounds (cymbals, etc.)

Question, for those of you more experienced in the studios, how many run through do you normally take to get you parts solid? Is it too much to ask to go back and overdub again.
How much improvement can I expect from the mixing?

Your input is greatly appreciated!

Jack

[IneptDrummer]

It really depends on the genre. My old band was a very technical, orchestrated metal project with tons of piano and string loops, etc. Getting the drum tracks for a 7 minute song usually required a full 8 hour day in the studio, and lots of punch-ins. That however, was for our first actual full length album that was intended to be a professional, commercial release. If you're playing a less technical genre of music, or if its just intended to be a demo, I would try to burn through a few songs per day. Don't make too many compromises, just understand that an absolutely perfect take will require a lot of time, and probably 25+ takes (again, depending on how technical/difficult the music is). There's always editing too, I guess. I mean, you have to be carefull not to go crazy with it, but if there are just little things here and there that you didn't think were solid enough its an option. Especially if you can't afford more studio time to do punch-ins.

As far as going back to re-do things, if you've got the money than no one is going to say no. I will warn you though, if you are unhappy with the cymbal sound, you're going to be redoing the whole thing with new cymbals. There's no way to really "overdub" one part of the kit because of bleed from all the other mics. I've been there before (damn you, K Customs!).

Condensed version because I'm a talkative guy:

Recording takes a long time, and drums take longest of anything. Time is money. If you've got the money, spend the time. Editing is not necessarily the Devil. The mixing and mastering process may help your cymbal sound a bit, especially if you make it clear to the engineer exactly what you don't like about them. And again, this all depends on what you intend your final result to be. If its just a demo, don't worry about the little things a whole lot, just get the feeling and the emotion down. If its a record, you're in for a long ride. Aim for perfection, take your time, and remember that there is absolutely nothing wrong with spending 8 or 10 hours on one or two songs depending on the technicality and difficulty of it.

[caddywumpus]

When it's a band that I'm a member of, I'll have all of my parts nailed down before we go into the studio (the beats, the groove, the fills, the sound that I want--snares, cymbals, tuning, etc...). That way I have all of the variables dialed in and I can focus on the performance. I'll bring along a couple extra pieces of gear in case I get a different inspiration (the room, the engineer's miking techniques, what the producer envisions...).

When I go in to the studio to record for a group I've never even heard before, I'll bring a few more options, not knowing exactly what I'm getting myself into. As far as the performance in these instances, I just go by the word of the producer/engineer. They don't need to deal with a finicky drummer who lays down a great take, and then says, "Can I do that again? I have a better idea for a fill at this one spot in the chart..." It's a waste of their time and somebody else's money for me to do so.

As for how many takes...sometimes just one. Sometimes as many as 5. If it takes more than that, then they usually go on to the next song and get on the phone to a back up musician to come in and do the job right in a couple of takes. I've been in a studio where it happened to a guitar-playing friend of mine. We finished a song, and when the light went off, a new guitar player walked in and started setting up his gear. The engineer then said over the cans, "You can go home now."

If you don't like the particular sound of your drums that the engineer captured, you can ask him to reposition the mics, after you explain what kind of sound you're looking for. You might have to re-tune your drums or switch cymbals, or even move your kit to a different part of the room. Open and clear communication with a good engineer will make it possible to get a good sound, as long as your gear sounds good on its own.

Don't expect an engineer to be able to "fix it in the mix". An engineer can only add more of or take away from the recorded signal (volume and EQing), unless they plan on using a sound-replacing software. If the drum sound on tape sounds bad, don't hold your breath hoping that compression, reverb, and EQing will make it sound better. Make it sound right in the first place so that very little will have to be done to the recorded sound of your drums.

Okay, I've gone on long enough. Hope this helps...

[jonescrusher]

You should have all your parts worked out and arranged to your satisfaction before you go in to the studio, messing around or trying to invent on the spot is likely to waste time and money. Getting a useable take in 2 or 3 attempts is a skill which requires experience, so certain and rehearsed parts are essential in your early attempts.

[SOGdrummer]

I had the parts nailed down prior to beginning recording. My concerns are in trying to lay down tracks that "perfect" timed for the rest of the musicians (at the request of the engineer) that some of the sounds (cymbals and snare) are not what I would prefer.

[caddywumpus]

I had the parts nailed down prior to beginning recording. My concerns are in trying to lay down tracks that "perfect" timed for the rest of the musicians (at the request of the engineer) that some of the sounds (cymbals and snare) are not what I would prefer.

Are you saying that the actual sound quality of the recording your drums and cymbals is what you dislike, or is it your performance, which sounds too stiff because you're trying to have "perfect" timing for the other musicians to track over? I still don't quite understand what you're asking...

If your drums don't sound great when you hear the playback, either they don't sound good in the first place (and upon hearing the playback, you hear what they actually sound like, which is different than what you hear from the drum throne, and you don't like it...), OR something in the signal chain of recording wasn't ideal (bad mic placement, cheap mic, cheap cable, cheap preamp, cheap mixer, used tape or low digital bit rate). If there's a problem, it's a good idea to troubleshoot that kind of stuff before the first actual take.

If your performance is what you don't like the sound of, then you should either get used to playing with a click track REALLY QUICKLY (it takes years, usually, to get really comfortable with one) or track without one, and let the natural ebb and flow that you're used to having with the other musicians come out. Often times, when recording, people try to make the song have a uniform tempo throughout, but they don't realize that they typically speed up the chorus (or have some tempo flux), and so playing it straight sounds really weird to them, and it never sounds like they're used to.

Hope THIS helps! :) Good luck, man! Recording can be a pain sometimes...

[IneptDrummer]

Caddy is right about the click track. Practice with it constantly. It sucks at first but it will make you and your band sound 324379138 times tighter. My personal rule of thumb is that if you can really hear the click clearly in your headphones/earbuds, you're probably off of it a little bit. You'll know what I mean when you hear it - it sort of disappears into your drums when you're really nailing it down.

I know, its annoying as hell to practice with at first, but you get used to it. I use a Tama metronome live with my band, and I've gotten so used to it that sometimes I forget to turn it on before counting in the song. : )

[Nodiggie]

We are currently in the studio to record our 2nd CD, only the 2nd time I have been involved in recording in this manner (other than live performances in the past). The first time I was limited to one or two runs of each track cutting the "scratch" tracks...later wished I had more time to clean up or add to the tracks.

cleaning up, no problem. Adding, totally different story

This time we cut each tracks basics paying particular attention to time (using a click) and now I find myself listening to the rough cuts and wishing I could add some additional fills. I am also not entirely happy with some of the sounds (cymbals, etc.)

I think you were so concern with timing issues that you may have played very conservative. There is nothing wrong with clean and simple if it is acceptable overall. 99% of the time no one is happy with what they do and keep hearing different things that "could have" or "should have" been tracked. You have to learn to let go sometimes and let your producer call it "good" or your band members.

The "sounds & cymbal sounds" can or should be editable by your producer with not too much fuss. It is surprising what can be done to fix sounds.

Question, for those of you more experienced in the studios, how many run through do you normally take to get you parts solid? Is it too much to ask to go back and overdub again.
How much improvement can I expect from the mixing?

My last two albums I played some tracks twice and some as many as 6 or more. Just depends on a whole lot of variables.

Going back and punching can be done but big $$ will be spent. The signed artists get to spend way more time in the studio than Joe Garage Band does on their own dime. But I was assured by more than one producer that even the Pro's they have recorded never tracked perfect the first time either. The mixing can be a magical affair or a disaster, it all depends on your producer. Your producer will either make or break the overall sound of your album.

Your input is greatly appreciated!

Jack

Congrats on getting back in the studio doing what you love to do. It is a challenge but in the end it's a great feeling of accomplishment.

[jer]

As for you going back and doing overdubs, if you have the time and money to correct something you aren't happy with, DO IT!

There is nothing worse than spending a lifetime being unhappy with something that could have been fixed in a day.

Good luck!

[drummingdunc]

Caddy is right about the click track. Practice with it constantly. It sucks at first but it will make you and your band sound 324379138 times tighter.)

That is much tighter! ;)

I'm due in the studio this week and have never played with a click before. I have sequenced click tracks for the songs we are recording, which involve quite a few tempo and time signature changes, and have practiced playing to them, but I lose all my expression and feel for the music cos I'm concentrating on the click. Guess it's just another of those things that takes time. But if it was easy, everyone would play the drums and we wouldn't feel so cool and smug for playing the best instrument ever!!!

Keep groovin'!

[dairyairman]

oh man! i was just in the studio last night trying to clean up my drum tracks. the studio didn't really want to do it because we paid a flat rate per song. time is money! if you pay per hour like my old band did on the last project i was involved with, then the studio will be happy to take all the time in the world to fix your tracks.

did you say you were unhappy with the rough tracks? that's no big deal. i assume you're going to record everything over again while listening to the rough tracks. that's the usual way of doing things.

when it comes time to do your drum tracks again, don't be afraid to ask to punch in and redo certain sections of your performance. it's possible to fix things in the mix, but if you can fix them in the tracking process, that's a lot better. once the drums and mics are set up, it's easy to punch in fixes, but once your drums are all taken apart and all the mics are put away, you probably won't get another chance. it's possible to fix things in the mix, but if you can fix them in the tracking process, that's a lot better.

in the editing/mixing process you can raise and lower the level of each drum, add effects (e.g. reverb), move around notes that are out of time, add equalization, etc.