New vs Classic Supraphonic

[synergy]

I tried to find another thread about this but my search came up with no matches,

Does anyone know the difference between the classic Bonham era snares to the modern ones?

Does anything see the modern ones as even the same type of drum?

I see alot on ebay etc drums flaking and looking in pretty poor shape- It looks like there were issues during the 80's- I dont really have a lot of knowledge with these.

Should I be trying to find a good classic or just go for a new one without any 'aging' problems

[ermghoti]

Chrome does not adhere to aluminum properly. Just can't, it's inherent to the properties of the metals. A chromed aluminum snare will pit, given time. Good care can delay it, that's all. Fortunately, some pitting/peeling won't affect anything but the resale value, which is why I have an early-mid '70's Supra that GC sold me for $140.

[Royal]

I think the older ones had a built in adjustable damper.....?
Who's got one? Tell us.

[caddywumpus]

The aluminum shells don't sound "aged" like wood shells do. If you can find a used one for cheaper than new, then there's your answer. Watch out for cosmetic as well as functional flaws (pitting, warping, etc...)

[fusssion]

OR ...
Get a 6.5x14 Acrolite!

It's got 10 lugs, and it's the same shell!

[PacifRick]

I have a '68 supra and it does have an adjustable internal muffler. It shell is also pitting, but doesn't effect the sound whatsoever, to me it actually adds character!

[KarlCrafton]

There's no significant difference in the shell other than some things that don't affect the sound (lugs are not a exact to the size of the bead--and haven't been for a long time--as the real old ones).

The really old ones may have had a slightly different bead size, but if you can really tell the difference in sound.....

I had heard that the Brass hoops that were on some older Supras gave the drum a slightly sweeter sound to the drum (compared to drums that didn't have them) so I got some (Tama Brass for $70).
After I put the hoops on, it did sound a little different, and nice, but really different? enough that I should have bothered? Not so much, but the hoops are nice anyway, and not a waste of money.

There have been several pro drummers that have talked about old and new Supra 402's and they say there's no difference in the sound. Frankie Banali is one of the drummers to talk about the Supra, and he has several of them, and is a HUGE Ludwig fanatic.

These days, you can order a Supra with the B/O badge and an internal muffler if you want something that looks like the "vintage" 70's drums, because a new one is going to sound like a 70's drum anyway...and you'll probably spend less on a new one and have a shell that's not pitted or have any blemishes on it.

Here's a 1979 that's on eBay right now. Bid on it fast if you want it, but it's probably gonna end up being about what you'd pay new.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250372622280

I'd go for a "vintage" 402 if I could get it cheap and in great shape, other than that, I'd buy a new one. And as for a 70's drum with brass hoops on something like eBay, you'd never know if it really had them until you got the drum, then it's too late if you paid extra $$$ for one with brass hoops.

I'm a pretty big Ludwig fanatic, and personally, IMO, all the hoopla over the B/O badged 70's drums, and the money people are willing to spend on them is a waste of money and effort in the search--unless the search is most of your fun, and you don't care abut the extra money on a really good condition drum.

Just my 2 cents on it.

[trkdrmr]

Chrome does not adhere to aluminum properly. Just can't, it's inherent to the properties of the metals. A chromed aluminum snare will pit, given time. Good care can delay it, that's all. Fortunately, some pitting/peeling won't affect anything but the resale value, which is why I have an early-mid '70's Supra that GC sold me for $140.

I don't think it was so much the adherance, but it was the chemical reaction.

Galvanic Corrosion:
This is an aggressive and localized form of corrosion due to the electrochemical reaction often found between two or more dissimilar metals in an electrically conductive environment. It occurs because the more electronegative material (the anode) is attacked by the more electropositive material (the cathode).

[ermghoti]

That's what I was getting at, I figured the under-200 words version would suffice. :D

[elcid]

I think the older ones had a built in adjustable damper.....?
Who's got one? Tell us.

Have a 5x14 Supra that dates back to 1964...the year I bought a Ludwig Down Beat kit.
The Supra was equipped with the so-called "baseball bat" muffler, but round knob types can also be found on both vintage Keystone and O/B badge models.
Also have a '66 Super Sensitive snare drum (6.5" deep) that also has the KS badge and BB muffler...as does a pre-serial 3x13 silver sparkle piccolo (on this one the felt is red rather than white as in latter models).
In fact, all of my Ludwig drums were outfitted with BB mufflers, except the bass drum, of course; but it does have the distinctive brass Keystone badge that am so fond of.

By the way...both the Supra and SS snares exhibit the typical bane of such drums' finish: pitting, and in the case of the '64 dish have to say that it was well treated, and yet as is par for the course pitting still occurred. The SS snare was bought last December so have no real idea how its was treated through the years, but pitting isn't much worse than my Supra, for which am deeply thankful...

-elcid

[trkdrmr]

That's what I was getting at, I figured the under-200 words version would suffice. :D

I work with aircraft, and we have to deal with galvanic, pitting, exfoliation and other types of corrosion all the time. I knew one of them applied to the snare. I was sure that it wasn't hydrogen embrittlement.

[elcid]

I had heard that the Brass hoops that were on some older Supras gave the drum a slightly sweeter sound to the drum (compared to drums that didn't have them) so I got some (Tama Brass for $70).
After I put the hoops on, it did sound a little different, and nice, but really different? enough that I should have bothered? Not so much, but the hoops are nice anyway, and not a waste of money.

Similar sonic results can be obtained--and is cheaper too--by using die cast rather than brass hoops; have tried them on Supra and Super Sensitive snares and the resultant sound is quite pleasing (if that can construed to be "sweet"), taming some of the familiar "ping" produced by the thin steel rims that Ludwig used to put on their snare drums as well.
I recently purchased couple of Ludwig die cast rims from Amazon.com for $31 a pop...

-elcid

[fusssion]

Karl is right...

Why waste it?

You can get a brand new 402 from Massmusic.net SHIPPED for $369. If it sounds the same, then who cares?! Why waste your money on something that YOU KNOW will have some sort of pitting? It's only a matter of time!

And again....REMEMBER folks ....the 6.5 x 14 Acrolite is the SAME shell, different badge and lugs, but it's also a 10 lug snare for much cheaper!

Also, as LVDC says, .... IF IT SOUNDS GOOD,....IT IS GOOD!!!!

[gmrakich]

Bonham played a steel supra....

[fusssion]

Bonham played a steel supra....

you mean an aluminum Supra :)

[gmrakich]

you mean an aluminum Supra :)

I have ALWAYS heard it was metal, not aluminum.
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/johnbonhamocheltree.html.

[elcid]

I have ALWAYS heard it was metal, not aluminum.
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/johnbonhamocheltree.html.

Supras and Acrolites shells are made out of aluminum...but then aluminum is a type of metal too!... :)

-elcid

[fusssion]

Guys,...first of all, I was just funnin' around ...but ...isn't the ludaloy shell an aluminum base?

Isn't the Acrolite aluminum? They are the same shell, yes?

Ocheltree's video is saying metal, based on him differentiating between any brass or bronze model Supras

[gmrakich]

Aluminum is a VERY stable liquid. : ^ P
I have a METAL supra....a magnet will stick to it. A magnet will not stick to aluminum.

[KarlCrafton]

From the Ludwig web site:
............................
400 Series Supra-Phonic Snare Drums

Performance proven to be the sound that fueled the most hit recordings in history, the Ludwig LM400 and LM402 are the snare drum choice of the pros.

From Jazz to Metal Ludwig 400 Series Snare Drums provide the perfect sound in the studio or on stage. The USA made chrome plated seamless aluminum shells produce a bright crisp cutting sound, with the perfect balance of full resonant tone and snare crack.

The LM400 and LM402 are available with Imperial lugs or tube lugs and smooth or hammered shells.
.....................

Acrolite Snare Drums

Once perceived as a student level snare drum, the sound of the Ludwig Acrolite Snare leaves no question that it should simply be considered a tremendous all-around snare drum at any level.

The seamless aluminum shell reflects Ludwig excellence in quality. The signature “Black Galaxy” finish and Classic Lugs gives this drum an appearance all its own.

Acrolite Snare Drums are available in 8 lug, 5x14 and 10 lug, 6.5x14 sizes.
.............................
My guess is, since a 400 is chrome plated, that's why a magnet will stick to it.

Now that you said Aluminum is a stable liquid, I just hope my aluminum shell drums don't morph into one of those crazy Terminators if I do a bad flam tap or something. Sheeesh....thanks for freaking me out man!

[gmrakich]

Ludalloy........he he.

[Fweep]

I got a new supra 6 1/2 x 14 a few years ago. It was around $325.

I just didn't want to deal with the pitting and I wanted something new.
No internal muffler on the current (2005) ones.

I did have a stripped lug from the factory and was sent a complete new drum.

I never got compliments on specific drums before, but everyone makes a point to say how much they like the sound of the Ludwig supra snare.

New or used you can't go wrong with the sound!

Good luck!

[KarlCrafton]

That 1979 Supra went for $430 plus, almost $22 in shipping.

$452 is too much to pay for a snare you can get new, cheaper, is the same drum, and isn't going to have any plating issues for a very long time if ever.
Besides the fact that you could order one with tubes if you wanted, and the B/O badge if you liked that badge better for whatever reason.

Back in the day, people didn't take care of stuff like they do now, so if kept up and wiped down or cleaned once in a while, I doubt that a Supra would get any pitting as long as the person owned it.

I have a hammered Supra (a '93) and there's not one speck of anything going bad on the finish.
It's as pretty as the day I got it, and sounds just as good.

....$430 bucks.....sheesh....

[GCG199]

Aluminum is a VERY stable liquid. : ^ P
I have a METAL supra....a magnet will stick to it. A magnet will not stick to aluminum.

I believe that you have one of the extremely rare (carbon) steel shells. I have read a lot of talk about them. But until now no one has ever confirmed that they really exist.

Ludwig went with the cheapest metal materials available in order to save money. They strated out with brass, then went to aluminum then a aluminum/zinc alloy.

[synergy]

Hey guys, I may be being a little dense- I have read your responses and now I am just trying to figure out the real difference between the Black beauty and an acrolite- Well apart from about $300!


They are both metal (of some sort or construction) and it looks as though the BB is hand-hammered? Other then that- what puts the BB $300 over the acrolite?

Can anyone describe the sound difference?

thanks

Oh, and does anyone know if the classic lugs on the acrolite can be switched out for tube lugs? I just like the look of them- but the Acrolite does not come with them as a option- As far as I have found anyway

[Alex M]

I tried to find another thread about this but my search came up with no matches,

Does anyone know the difference between the classic Bonham era snares to the modern ones?

Does anything see the modern ones as even the same type of drum?

I see alot on ebay etc drums flaking and looking in pretty poor shape- It looks like there were issues during the 80's- I dont really have a lot of knowledge with these.

Should I be trying to find a good classic or just go for a new one without any 'aging' problems


Hi, i was in the same boat as you, i'd been looking through ebay for a vintage 400 or 402 but never quite closed the deal so left it for about a year. A friend of mine, who's a professional drummer in a well known UK rock band recommended wholeheartedly i get a vintage model as they 'do sound better', so respecting his opinion i'd decided that was the way to go, until i visited one of my local drum shops last thursday. I got one of the assistants to play a new 400, first tuned high, and secondly tuned low. It screamed absolute quality, and i was blown away by it's sound, they really are versatile snares with the most beautiful sound imo. So that made my mind up for me, it'll be a NEW model for me and i'll hopefully be picking it up next friday. £399 is it's price, the 402 (which i didn't hear) slightly more.

In a nutshell, i'd be seriously surprised if you were anything less than very happy with a new model (and they look so much nicer without the pitting etc).

[KarlCrafton]

Hey guys, I may be being a little dense- I have read your responses and now I am just trying to figure out the real difference between the Black beauty and an acrolite- Well apart from about $300!


They are both metal (of some sort or construction) and it looks as though the BB is hand-hammered? Other then that- what puts the BB $300 over the acrolite?

Can anyone describe the sound difference?

thanks

Oh, and does anyone know if the classic lugs on the acrolite can be switched out for tube lugs? I just like the look of them- but the Acrolite does not come with them as a option- As far as I have found anyway


The Acrolite and the 400 series drums have the same shell material.
The Acrolite is (now) powder coated in the black sparkly finish, the 400's are chrome plated.
Black Beauties are a brass shell. It sounds totally different, and is a heavier shell by quite a noticeable difference.

The Acro has a warmer, slightly lower pitched bark than the Supra, and it's a drier sounding drum. It is NOT a low budget "student" model snare.

The BB is a brighter, solid, sweet sound that has more cut because of the brass shell.
IMO this drum is worth every penny, and has never let me down in any way. It's expensive, but not out of reach if you really wanted one and saved for it.

The Supra sounds like a Supra--nothing else sounds like it, no matter how many companies try and copy it, they don't sound the same as Ludwig's snare.
God crack, solid throaty bark, pleasant ring, records great, doesn't weigh a million pounds but sounds like a million dollars...

The BB and 400 (supra) snares are offered in Hammered versions. The Bronze shell drums are also available in a Hammered version.
Same basic sound drum to drum (depending on the shell), but the hammering makes it a little drier.

The hole patterns are the same for all the lugs on a 5 or 6.5, so you can switch out to tube lugs--and I'd recommend Ludwig's tube lugs over the generic type because they are nicer if you can afford it.
They are a few bucks more each than standard generic tubes the various suppliers offer.

The generic tubes work fine, and would probably never give you a problem, but Ludwig's tube lugs are nicer, heftier, and have a beefier screw holding them on.

They probably run about 4 bucks each more, but, in the long run for my piece of mind, it'd be worth the 40 or so extra bucks if you can swing it.

Now, if it's a drum you'd have and put tubes on just because you dig them, and you would sell the drum in a year or so, then I would use the regular tubes and they'd be just fine, but if it was a "keeper", then go with the good stuff.

The hole pattern on the P-85 throw off is the same as the (nicer & cooler looking) P-86 Millennium strainer, as well as the newer butt plate (which is stupid cheap-I couldn't believe it was that low of a price).

A Black Galaxy Acrolite with tubes would look and sound sweet. It's actually a snare on my short list (with tube lugs too!).

[hwy145]

That 1979 Supra went for $430 plus, almost $22 in shipping.

$452 is too much to pay for a snare you can get new, cheaper, is the same drum, and isn't going to have any plating issues for a very long time if ever.
Besides the fact that you could order one with tubes if you wanted, and the B/O badge if you liked that badge better for whatever reason.

Back in the day, people didn't take care of stuff like they do now, so if kept up and wiped down or cleaned once in a while, I doubt that a Supra would get any pitting as long as the person owned it.

I have a hammered Supra (a '93) and there's not one speck of anything going bad on the finish.
It's as pretty as the day I got it, and sounds just as good.

....$430 bucks.....sheesh....


Karl, it is not too often that I disagree with you, but by your logic, a 1966 Fender Stratocaster should not cost more than an new one. Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but If one can find a 1970's 402 in great shape, I would think it is safe to assume that if taken good care of, it should stay about the same. And yes, you can buy them new, but collecting/ nostalgia is found in the drum world too. Call me a sucker, but I would pay (and have) a little more for a vintage one than a new one as well. Probably in the minority, but I'm a big fan of the 1970's vibe, and I really don't think the new ones are as attractive with mismatched lugs/ shell beads. That reaks of cheap import.

[KONA]

Aluminum is a VERY stable liquid. : ^ P
I have a METAL supra....a magnet will stick to it. A magnet will not stick to aluminum.

Ya - forget the aluminum shell - a person won't be able to put those cool little magnetic flashing Christmas lights on the drum ! - just having fun guys - good read regarding luddy stuff - thanks

[Vipercussionist]

Chrome does not adhere to aluminum properly. Just can't, it's inherent to the properties of the metals. A chromed aluminum snare will pit, given time. Good care can delay it, that's all. Fortunately, some pitting/peeling won't affect anything but the resale value, which is why I have an early-mid '70's Supra that GC sold me for $140.
Keep a good coat of wax on that snare and it won't pit. The wax will prevent the moisture from getting in and it'll make that baby shine like you just bought it. BUT if you let it go because you're lazy, it WILL pit sooner or later.
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I'd rather simmer for life than be a flash in the pan.
-Bermuda

[Vipercussionist]

Aluminum is a VERY stable liquid. : ^ P
I have a METAL supra....a magnet will stick to it. A magnet will not stick to aluminum. I don't know if you're trying to joke but, Aluminum is a METAL as is Steel and many other METALS.
Don't take MY word on it, read this: ALUMINUM (http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/aluminum/aluminum.html)
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__________________
I'd rather simmer for life than be a flash in the pan.
-Bermuda

[KarlCrafton]

Karl, it is not too often that I disagree with you, but by your logic, a 1966 Fender Stratocaster should not cost more than an new one. Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but If one can find a 1970's 402 in great shape, I would think it is safe to assume that if taken good care of, it should stay about the same. And yes, you can buy them new, but collecting/ nostalgia is found in the drum world too. Call me a sucker, but I would pay (and have) a little more for a vintage one than a new one as well. Probably in the minority, but I'm a big fan of the 1970's vibe, and I really don't think the new ones are as attractive with mismatched lugs/ shell beads. That reaks of cheap import.

I think we agree a bit, and I have said in the past (but not in that post or this thread) that the OLD Supras are nicer than the new stuff because yes, the bead matches and all that.

AND I agree on the nostalgia factor on a GOOD ONE, like the old stuff that matches up perfect and is in nice shape.
In that case, even 100 + bucks more than new wouldn't be out of line to me, if I really wanted one.

But, paying more on a relatively new drum? 1979 is not that long ago, and I'd think anyone would be hard pressed to tell the difference in sound between a 1979 drum and a 1993 drum like the one I have.

I'd say the only difference is the badge, and you could get a new one with a B/O badge direct from the factory with a warantee.

I always said before "If it makes someone happy, and they get 'that feeling' when they play the drum, it's worth it".

I probably wouldn't do it on a Supra...but, if I found a Bronze BB like my '89.....

Maybe it seems "cheap" to you because the lugs and stuff aren't USA made anymore (besides the not matching up)?
Yeah, it'd be nice if they were, but they aren't, and haven't been for a long time, so what can ya do?

There's things that bug me about fittings, and things that make you go "eww" like the bead and lug deal with you, so I get where you are coming from.

To me, as a non-connoisseur of the 400 series (I only have the 1 1993), the sound is "the same" (read: it sounds like a Supra 402) and that's what a lot of people say too, but if I heard an older one, like a 60's 402, and it didsound better to my ears, I'd change my opinion.

Maybe the parts and the metal used in making the fitting and screws and all that might make a difference, but the newer Supras I have heard do sound great.

If the older ones sound better than great, then I'm all for it, and the extra cost is acceptable.
And come on dude, a '66 WOOD Strat is going to sound better than a new Strat..we ALL know that!

Wood isn't the same as metal, but I'll concede that the "cheap-o" mixed LudALoy used now may be a little more "cheap-o" :-)
And I use the term "Cheap-o" affectionately, but if it sounds great, who gives a crap if it's scrapings off the shoe of the Toxic Avenger....

I will keep an eye out for any Supras that have a B/O badge and look like the bead and lugs match up (yeah, that would be a great thing to fix) and test them out myself.

I do know that the '66 400 my boss has sounds really great, so you might just be right, and I'm the dope who's missing out...I'd freely admit it if that's the case.

[Alex M]

Out of interest, has anyone on here actually put a vintage and new 400 side by side and played them, and if so, was there any noticeable difference in the sound?

Cheers
Al

[Vipercussionist]

Out of interest, has anyone on here actually put a vintage and new 400 side by side and played them, and if so, was there any noticeable difference in the sound?

Cheers
Al
Well, I've got 2 1970's ones and a 1990's one and they're damned identical as can be sound wise. The 1990's one LOOKS a damn sight better though. My 70's ones are pitted with dented rims and other aesthetic flaws but they sure SOUND wonderful!!

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I'd rather simmer for life than be a flash in the pan.
-Bermuda