heel up or heel down double bass? what to do

[drummingman]

i have been playing heel up for years (meaning using all legs, thats what i mean when saying heels up) but have been working on heels down a lot over the last few months. i can see the potential when it comes to speed when playing heels down for sure. as is im pretty slow when doing it. i can play much faster playing heels up as is but it seems to me that in order to hit extreme speeds over time that a person has to switch to an all ankle motion. do you all think this is true? also it seems that doing heels up is a lot of work at high speeds. does this get easier with time?
im really trying to decide which way to go when it come to my double bass technique right now. if going heels down and just putting in the work to get that really great is the way to go then i will do that. but if i should just keep working on heels up instead and just put in the work on that then that is what i will do. to be honest im really not sure which way is the right way to go, thats why im posting this thread.
Also, if a person is playing heels up double bass can they keep that up into old age? i ask this because of the whole thing of heel up double bass seeming like a lot of work and im just wondering if someone can keep that up as they get older?
this is very important to me in my development as a drummer? what do you all think?
also, does anyone know what double bass technique Raymond Herrera is using in that fear factoy stuff that is just crazy fast and that is all stop and go? just wondering.

[Shedboyxx]

I'm sort of in and out of double bass drumming. I have a DW5002 on my home set for practicing but seldom take it out live. So read this with that in mind.

From everything I read, the progress of double bass playing whether heel up or down is based on:

1) A healthy approach: i.e. relaxed and deliberate.
2) Consistent practice. Every day.
3) Time. I keep hearing this mantra over and over again from the marquee DB guys. Consistent practice over LONG periods of time. I really haven't listened to Chris Adler except for Modern Drummer videos but in the recent issue of Drum! he speaks of increasing his single strokes 5 bpm - over 3 hours. I also hear stuff like this from Jason Bittner. And it doesn't 'happen' in a month or even months for 99.9% of the players out there.

Hearing Chris A. and some others talk it sounds like they play heels up - but ever so slightly. It's not like a 30 degree ankle angle. I've read that the heel is maybe an inch above the footplate. Chris also will move around on the pedal based on the speed he's trying to achieve.

After watching the Steve Smith 'History of the US Beat', I believe it is healthy to practice both heel up and heel down. For me (like the you) I've played heel up most of my life and revert to that usually when playing. However, I am trying to consciously use heel down to develop that technique more. I believe that the best way to build up heel up playing is to be relaxed, with the heel at a small height above the plate and using a metronome, gradually work up - but be prepared for a long haul. Especially if you can only practice a small amount everyday.

The above is just my conclusion after reading and experimenting a bit. I'm still far from where I want to be but will work at it a bit everyday. As Chris A. says as well, there are all kinds of other things to be working on besides speed. He's younger than me but that sounds like wisdom.

HTH

Jim

[drummingman]

a lot of guys will use just ankles while holding the heels just a little off the pedals like you said jim. i cant reall do this because it makes my back hurt to just hold the heels up and stay in that position for a long period of time. thats why i do heels down and when i do heels up i use all leg and intersperse ankles in there when needing more notes. im not sure if that is what you were talk about though.
im kinda suprised that not more people have responded to this thread to be honest. double bass playing and the best way to do it always seems like a big topic.

[drummingman]

no more takers? i am interested in what you all have to say

[stabmasterarson]

I would check out the george kollias forums or the derek roddy forums for some more info on the best way to double bass. I got the gk dvd and am using it's exercises religiously, and on it he says that below 120, it's all leg, between 120-180, it's leg and ankle combined, from 180-220 its mostly ankle and toes, and from 220+ its a leg twitch with ankle and toes. I have seen my top speeds go up to 165 from 145 using his system so far.

I'm finding that rebound on the head is huge as far as getting a faster stroke...I'm using loose springs and tight skins (80 on the drum dial batter and reso) and I find when doing a relaxed beat like 16th triplets you really notice the rebound and it helps you relax because you aren't putting much energy into the stroke, you're just controlling the rebound and giving it a little push back toward the head

get that George Kollias dvd, I highly recommend it...it's got everything for metal drumming in it, exercises, techniques, concepts, and a method of applying it all. best 55$ I ever spent.

[drummingman]

I would check out the george kollias forums or the derek roddy forums for some more info on the best way to double bass. I got the gk dvd and am using it's exercises religiously, and on it he says that below 120, it's all leg, between 120-180, it's leg and ankle combined, from 180-220 its mostly ankle and toes, and from 220+ its a leg twitch with ankle and toes. I have seen my top speeds go up to 165 from 145 using his system so far.

I'm finding that rebound on the head is huge as far as getting a faster stroke...I'm using loose springs and tight skins (80 on the drum dial batter and reso) and I find when doing a relaxed beat like 16th triplets you really notice the rebound and it helps you relax because you aren't putting much energy into the stroke, you're just controlling the rebound and giving it a little push back toward the head

get that George Kollias dvd, I highly recommend it...it's got everything for metal drumming in it, exercises, techniques, concepts, and a method of applying it all. best 55$ I ever spent.
i post on the roddy fourm all the time. from what i know derek uses the flatfoot technique which is just running on the pedals. he can go crazy fast that way but i feel like im kiiling myself when im running on the pedals like that at high speeds.
i also have the kollias dvd. when he is going real fast he just lifts his heels a little off the pedals and just uses all ankles. i cant hold the heels up like that when using just ankles because it makes my back hurt, thats one of the reasons why i started really working on my heels down playing.
tiger bill has a foot tech dvd coming out soon and he has told me that it is going to address the questions that i have very well. i look forward to checking that out when it is released.

[dairyairman]

i'm not really an expert at double bass, but i've gotten a lot better at over the past year or two. one thing i've learned to do is not raise my heel very high off the pedal board. i used to have balance/fatigue problems until i learned that. to play faster i keep my heels low (but not on the pedal), move my legs very little, and play mostly from my ankles. i've seen the really good players do that too, so i think i'm on the right track.

[drummingman]

anyone else have any thoughts?

[Big_Philly]

I have been struggling for a long time with double bass, not really making any progress, as if my practise time / max bpm curve has an asymptote somewhere around 150 bpm. In non-geek that means that my bass drum speed will approach 150bpm (playing 16ths) as my practise time approaches infinity. But I recently started working with heel up technique and this seems to help... I can do 150bpm and probably more. It's a little loud though.

[bongo]

I play both heel up and heel down and find them useful in different ways.

Heel up is all about speed, volume ... power! If I'm wailing both barrels with single strokes, or double stroke heel toe, then using leg and ankle with heel up is the way.

If I want precision and control then I play heel down. For putting a left foot wood block clave part against a right foot cow bell cascara, or playing right foot surdo against a left foot samba pattern, I need the control of heel down. I can still do single stroke rolls heel down, and double strokes and shuffles, but it isn't as powerful, which really is not a problem because I adjust the volume of the rest of the set to balance it out.

As a matter of fact I've had to reduce volume heel down when playing hand percussion with foot pedal cow bell and wood block. Heel down can still over-power my bare hands on conga drum. I use muffling and special beater heads to mellow out the cow bell, and have gotten rid of the plastic jam blocks in favor of real wood to match the overall kit sound.

If you are curious how I play heel down, check out www.youtube.com/bongodoggie. I use reverse horizontal action beaters with a short throw on the wood block and cow bell, which are articulate and can be played with dynamics. The djun djun has a standard DW 5002 double pedal. This Indigenous Roots stuff I'm sure is not what you are aspiring for with double bass, but it illustrates how heel down can be advantagous.


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[drummingman]

im sure that i can get good power heels down. as is im getting good power. as is i feel that for fast double bass heels down is where its at.

[bongo]

im sure that i can get good power heels down. as is im getting good power. as is i feel that for fast double bass heels down is where its at.

Sure you can get good power heel down, but no doubt, you'll get more heel up. It's physics. But I agree, heel down is powerful and enough for most cases. Hey, we got microphones, right?