Teaching Advice - Beginner Hand Technique. French, German, or both?

[Isaac Lee]

I have a beginner student who naturally hold his sticks in the french grip position. During our first session I told him that it was ok.

But now I'm thinking about the moeller method and how its best done from the german/american grip position.

My question is, do you think I should get him going on the german for his bread and butter grip and encourage his french development as a secondary?

[Boomka]

I teach German/American Grip to beginners for a couple of reasons. One is that such a grip uses the primary motion of the wrist to make strokes. Not only is the development of the use of the wrists fundamental in the long-term, it is also a safer method for avoiding injury in a beginner. French Grip, when properly done, uses the rotation of the forearm and the fingers to produce strokes. And while when correctly executed it is a highly useful grip/stroke, it is also VERY easy for beginners to get into bad habits and end up with a dangerous "Karate Chop" hybrid with the forearms in the German/American "V" shape but with the thumb on top of the stick. The "Karate Chop" is both technically inefficient for most playing, and can lead to injury to the thumbs and wrists.

If you are very experienced with the French Grip and feel that you can keep a beginner away from the potential pitfalls, I'm sure it's a fine place to start. However, you are going to have to do a lot of work on wrist turns and control when you do finally get around to using a palms-down grip. In my experience, it is easier to move from German/American to French once a solid foundation is set than the other way around.

[jeffwj]

I agree with Bookma. The German grip is usually accepted as the fundamental grip for snare drum. It allows for wrist control as well as execution of doubles and buzzes.

I would not teach him that French grip is bad. In fact, most of us use German on the snare and French on the RH for ride cymbal.

Jeff

[Deltadrummer]

Truthfully, I try to develop the student from where the student is at.

I agree what what has been said. I go through this all the time. It is not unusual for a student to show up using the French grip. And even if we change the group for snare work, as soon as they get to the set, they go back to French grip.

I lost a student last year for this fundamental reason. I couldn't get him to realize that using the German/ American grip for wrist development was an important step in technique. He really wasn't interested in wrist development. So if he is comfortable with his grip, I would go slow, develop his French grip and then add to it as time goes on.

[Boomka]

That's a fair point, Deltadrummer. Though I find that very rarely - almost never, in fact - are the students that I run into using a correct French Grip technique.

[DamoSyzygy]

You should get him to practise all three because in reality, he's going to use all three.

[Boomka]

You should get him to practise all three because in reality, he's going to use all three.

I find it confuses most beginners to try to deal with several types of stroke at once. It's hard enough to get many novice students into good technical habits without there being more than one grip to worry about. More advanced students: no problem. But with young students or absolute beginners I try to keep the message about grip as simple as possible.

[gusty]

there are some drummers at my school who use frnech grip for drumset playing, it just doesnt really allow for a 'confident' stroke, atleast what ive seen of it. though i find for ride/hi hat french usually works great.

[Boomka]

It can be fine when executed properly. Recall that it is widely used by timpani players who play with plenty of confidence.

[jeffwj]

Truthfully, I try to develop the student from where the student is at.

I agree what what has been said. I go through this all the time. It is not unusual for a student to show up using the French grip. And even if we change the grip for snare work, as soon as they get to the set, they go back to French grip.

I lost a student last year for this fundamental reason. I couldn't get him to realize that using the German/ American grip for wrist development was an important step in technique. He really wasn't interested in wrist development. So if he is comfortable with his grip, I would go slow, develop his French grip and then add to it as time goes on.

I can see where you are coming from. I had a student who was really into the J. Burns Moore (playing around the barrel) type of stroke. I am more of a Morello, straight up and down player. Since the student was already at an intermediate/advanced level, I did not feel the need to change it - it worked for him. I did explain my technique so he could experiment with it and make the decision himself.

However, from Isaac's description, this student is a beginner. As Bookma stated, chances are that even the student's French grip needs work. I would have him play German grip, but would explain why. Play some closed rolls or other passages in French and then in German, so he can see the benefits of the grip.

Most likely this student is not clinging to French grip since he's a beginner. He will most likely be up for whatever the teaches requires. But I can see Ken's point in regard to intermediate and advanced students. Sometimes their technique works for them. Other times, it takes a stumbling block for them to realize that they need to change their technique. By taking Ken's advice and treading lightly, you will keep the student and gain their trust. After that they will be more responsive to your suggestions.

[Deltadrummer]

I am more of a Morello, straight up and down player.


Oh, so you play the right way. :)

A description would best indicate my perspective.

I had a kid come in and his sticks were all over the place. He was a beginner with aboslutely no rebound control. Very typical; but in the case it was a bit extreme. I didn't fuss with it the first few weeks for other reasons namely the kid had just had major surgery for cancer. Because of his chemo, he was so out of it that sometimes he would walk into the walls. I didn't want to do anything to discourage him. He always played as though his life depended on it. It was all he had. After a few weeks I realized what an idiot I had been. This kid was using a perfect full free rebound stroke. So I had him work to perfect his Freestroke. That's when I learned to take students where they're at and perfect what they bring to you before moving on to anything new.

Of course, once you show the kids a fulcrum, assuming here your student is a kid, and that they can dribble the stick like a basketball, they're going to be hooked on proper technique. But you have to build trust first. :)

[Isaac Lee]

Most likely this student is not clinging to French grip since he's a beginner. He will most likely be up for whatever the teacher requires.

Precisely! In fact when I asked him to play for me so that I could evaluate his technique I stated, "interesting, you use the french grip" to which he replied, "oh, is that ok? I don't know what I'm doing really, how do you think I should hold the sticks".

I think he will benefit from the german/american grip more at this time. I will have to let him know why I'm changing my tune this week. =) I'm sure he will be gracious.

[jeffwj]

Precisely! In fact when I asked him to play for me so that I could evaluate his technique I stated, "interesting, you use the french grip" to which he replied, "oh, is that ok? I don't know what I'm doing really, how do you think I should hold the sticks".

I think he will benefit from the german/american grip more at this time. I will have to let him know why I'm changing my tune this week. =) I'm sure he will be gracious.

I always like to tell students why I am teaching something in a certain way or changing their technique. It allows the student to feel he/she is part of the learning experience as opposed to saying "do it this way because I said so." They usually will be more responsive to the change as well.

Best wishes for you and your student. I see that you are new to Drummerworld, so let me welcome you to the forum. What country/state are you from?

Jeff

[Deltadrummer]

Precisely! In fact when I asked him to play for me so that I could evaluate his technique I stated, "interesting, you use the french grip" to which he replied, "oh, is that ok? I don't know what I'm doing really, how do you think I should hold the sticks".




By stating that he was using a specific grip, you were validating what he was doing, which is the key in my boat. Your student was open for change so it may not have really been an issue. Even beginners are sometimes not eager for change. And when you have someone who has come from a beloved teacher, approaching change can also be somewhat tenuous in the beginning.

I remember after I went to Joe Morello, I went to someone who told me I was playing wrong. Uhh, huh ???. .. : P I went to learn reading and he wanted to change my technique. Actually, I learned sosmething from that; but needless to say, I didn't change my technique.

With my student, the next week he came in and I said, "Now that is a free stroke, no upstroke and downstroke. Let's see what happens when you hold your stick down and use an upstroke and downstroke." And he was ready for it. What I saw as a major hassle was no longer an issue. He never felt like he had done anything wrong and it was never an issue again.

[Isaac Lee]

Best wishes for you and your student. I see that you are new to Drummerworld, so let me welcome you to the forum. What country/state are you from?
Jeff

Thanks for the great insight and the warm welcome Jeff. I'm way over here in Montana at the moment. Those Richmond Spiders sure stomped my Grizzlies at the championship football game this last season! Ouch...

By stating that he was using a specific grip, you were validating what he was doing, which is the key in my boat. Your student was open for change so it may not have really been an issue. Even beginners are sometimes not eager for change. And when you have someone who has come from a beloved teacher, approaching change can also be somewhat tenuous in the beginning.

I remember after I went to Joe Morello, I went to someone who told me I was playing wrong. Uhh, huh ???. .. : P I went to learn reading and he wanted to change my technique. Actually, I learned sosmething from that; but needless to say, I didn't change my technique.

With my student, the next week he came in and I said, "Now that is a free stroke, no upstroke and downstroke. Let's see what happens when you hold your stick down and use an upstroke and downstroke." And he was ready for it. What I saw as a major hassle was no longer an issue. He never felt like he had done anything wrong and it was never an issue again.

Haha. Great story. That is so cool that you studied with Mr. Morello. He is incredible!

Thanks for the perspective. It made me think about how hard it was for me when I first got to college and in my first private lessons my teacher told me that I was using french grip in one hand and german in the other. I didn't realize at the time I was doing that and it took quite some time to get out of the habit. I wasn't particularly happy about the whole situation either! Now I understand the importance of what he was teaching me. You want things working together very similarly for those blazing single strokes. And thats just one example.

[Boomka]

The issue of trust has been brought up several times in this thread. It's an important thing and not always the easiest to establish. I've learned (am a learning) a lot about that over the past few months. I inherited -- in one lump sum -- over 50 students. Anyway, it seems that a good number of the young students I inherited have been playing a couple of years, and were allowed to hold the sticks just about any old way they liked as long as they were pinching (squeezing/throttling...) them between their index finger and thumb. Though in many cases I was looking at "Caveman Grip" with the thumb extended out ahead of the index finger. Rebound? Ha! Isolate the wrist? Double Ha! Stick heights? HAHAHAHAHAAAAA! Relax my grip? Why when I can hold these things like clubs and beat the hell out of stuff? Make both hands look the same? Why bother?!?!!?!?!!!

Anyway, in a few cases, I made the mistake of trying to make grip/stroke changes right away - simply because I thought the problem was that bad. However, without first getting a good read on some of the kids, a few of them gave me the ol' "well, So-n-So didn't make us hold the sticks like that...." routine. Then I realised I was in a tooth-and-nail battle for the kids' trust before I could go any further.

After several months of pleading, prodding and cajoling, most of them are coming around. It's taken a lot of careful demonstration of the benefits, the reasoning, and the potential result to get them onside. Unfortunately, it seems that with many young English kids today, they default to "screw you" and it's proved much harder than I thought.

[Isaac Lee]

Wow 50 students over night? Thats quite a nice work load. May I ask how that came to be?

I agree with you about trust. As long as I teach drumming, I will practice and take lessons myself. There may be times in my life where I'm too busy to practice every single day or even a few times a week, but I want to always be able to develop new and exciting ideas. That is important to me and I think that type of attitude will earn respect and trust from younger players in short order. I consider it to be leading by example.

[Boomka]

Wow 50 students over night? Thats quite a nice work load. May I ask how that came to be?

I began working for my County Music Service. Essentially, the local government funds and subsidises teachers to travel to various schools and provide lessons along with ensembles, masterclasses, etc. It's all extracurricular music outside of the music classes the kids take in school.

[Dan Lane]

The issue of trust has been brought up several times in this thread. It's an important thing and not always the easiest to establish. I've learned (am a learning) a lot about that over the past few months. I inherited -- in one lump sum -- over 50 students. Anyway, it seems that a good number of the young students I inherited have been playing a couple of years, and were allowed to hold the sticks just about any old way they liked as long as they were pinching (squeezing/throttling...) them between their index finger and thumb. Though in many cases I was looking at "Caveman Grip" with the thumb extended out ahead of the index finger. Rebound? Ha! Isolate the wrist? Double Ha! Stick heights? HAHAHAHAHAAAAA! Relax my grip? Why when I can hold these things like clubs and beat the hell out of stuff? Make both hands look the same? Why bother?!?!!?!?!!!

Anyway, in a few cases, I made the mistake of trying to make grip/stroke changes right away - simply because I thought the problem was that bad. However, without first getting a good read on some of the kids, a few of them gave me the ol' "well, So-n-So didn't make us hold the sticks like that...." routine. Then I realised I was in a tooth-and-nail battle for the kids' trust before I could go any further.

After several months of pleading, prodding and cajoling, most of them are coming around. It's taken a lot of careful demonstration of the benefits, the reasoning, and the potential result to get them onside. Unfortunately, it seems that with many young English kids today, they default to "screw you" and it's proved much harder than I thought.

If only I'd known about the whole trust thing when a few people asked me for a couple lessons, (free, of course,). In retrospect my efforts were definetly conterproductive, due to the fact that if you just lay things out as if you're a drumming dvd, people won't respond, because, as Boomka pointed out, you have to START with positive reinforcement, before they've really accomplished anything. Then they'll be willing to listen to you, becasue they'll think you're on their side. Is this a correct observation?