I can't do double stroke roll! >=[

[BrutalKid]

I have been playing drums for more than one year AND a half and I still don't know how to do a double stroke roll! I used to play in a marching band and they didn't teach me how. I found a drum teacher but he didn't teach me about how to do it either ( I guess he can't play it)

Now I'm self teaching, I find troubles on doing double stroke roll, I got few rudiment books and did a research online. But the second stroke is too small, it sounds like a ghost, what can I do?

Do I need to use the open close technique while playing? It doesn't work on me when I'm doing faster!

Do you have any method to get the rebound (second stroke)?

[joshisaces]

I used to be this way, and all I can tell you is that you have to practice it every day. I started about 3 months ago, and I'm already improving a lot on it.

good luck.

[Abhishek]

Try this

Start very slowly, around 80 bpm (8th notes double strokes). Play doubles slowly, but accent the second stroke of every double. Do this for 10 minutes everyday. You'll start seeing improvement in your doubles.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I have been playing drums for more than one year AND a half and I still don't know how to do a double stroke roll! I used to play in a marching band and they didn't teach me how. I found a drum teacher but he didn't teach me about how to do it either ( I guess he can't play it)

Now I'm self teaching, I find troubles on doing double stroke roll, I got few rudiment books and did a research online. But the second stroke is too small, it sounds like a ghost, what can I do?

Do I need to use the open close technique while playing? It doesn't work on me when I'm doing faster!

Do you have any method to get the rebound (second stroke)?

As always, when a relative beginner asks about relatively advanced technique issues, I play my broken record:

1) Learn the free stroke. Really. You need strong wrists and relaxed hands to do the double stroke. This means learn the technique from an instructor...a qualified instructor (I recommend Dom Famularo, you will never regret a moment or penny spent with him), then do the 2-50 a couple of hundred times. Yes, the whole thing, just like designed.

2) Learn pullouts. Fortunately, these are easy to do after you have endlessly practiced the free stroke. If you try to take a shortcut, you are cheating yourself...anyway, pullouts can be practiced using p.16-23 of Accents and Rebounds. And this only after going through Stick Control. It's just a progression with each step laying the foundation for the next.

3) It's implied in the above, but just to be certain: don't be self taught. I realize money may come up, but this is your future you are skimping on. Take a frigging loan and learn from a real teacher. It will save you SO much time it's not even funny.

It all comes down to how bad you want good doubles. I found they came by themselves after I did the above.

I realize the tone may come off harsh, and that is not my intention. I find it great that you come on here and ask. If you take the coaching and really go for it, you will have so much fun and satisfaction learning drums it will give you a new life!

Casper

[Big_Philly]

3) It's implied in the above, but just to be certain: don't be self taught. I realize money may come up, but this is your future you are skimping on. Take a frigging loan and learn from a real teacher. It will save you SO much time it's not even funny.



I absolutely agree that a teacher will help a lot if you want to learn to play drums. But taking a loan to be able to afford lessons? I wouldn't do that unless you really want to make drumming your career. But even then: the chances of a loan for drum lessons paying itself back in time are very, very small.
So yeah, take lessons if you can, but don't take any financial risks for it. Save up for lessons if you have to, but don't take loans for them.

[Ian Ballard]

I have been playing drums for more than one year AND a half and I still don't know how to do a double stroke roll! I used to play in a marching band and they didn't teach me how. I found a drum teacher but he didn't teach me about how to do it either ( I guess he can't play it)

Now I'm self teaching, I find troubles on doing double stroke roll, I got few rudiment books and did a research online. But the second stroke is too small, it sounds like a ghost, what can I do?

Do I need to use the open close technique while playing? It doesn't work on me when I'm doing faster!

Do you have any method to get the rebound (second stroke)?

I don't treat it like a "rebound", since a certain degree of energy is diminished in the form of sound and vibration into the drum, and therefore cannot be as strong as the first stroke. Rolls like this, to me, sound like "PA-da-PA-da-PA-da..." Some drum-corps kids are taught "rebound", but they are playing on VEEEERY tight drums and the loss of kinetic energy is minimal, since the degree of stored potential energy is very high in such a tight drum.

For real-world, drumset applications, I'd highly recommend accentuating the second stroke. A poster below called it, "pull off". This, you would start with the stick approx. 1 inch from the head and you, in effect, pull the stick off the head upward... bring the stick back to 1" and repeat. The idea is to strengthen the the upstroke, so your second stroke in the double is as strong as the first REGARDLESS of how tight the head is you are playing on and also gives you good doubles on cymbals/hi-hats.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I absolutely agree that a teacher will help a lot if you want to learn to play drums. But taking a loan to be able to afford lessons? I wouldn't do that unless you really want to make drumming your career. But even then: the chances of a loan for drum lessons paying itself back in time are very, very small.
So yeah, take lessons if you can, but don't take any financial risks for it. Save up for lessons if you have to, but don't take loans for them.

That would of course be up to the individual to decide, but what I meant to communicate was this:

Do anything you have to do in order to get lessons from a great teacher.

Casper

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I don't treat it like a "rebound", since a certain degree of energy is diminished in the form of sound and vibration into the drum, and therefore cannot be as strong as the first stroke. Rolls like this, to me, sound like "PA-da-PA-da-PA-da..." Some drum-corps kids are taught "rebound", but they are playing on VEEEERY tight drums and the loss of kinetic energy is minimal, since the degree of stored potential energy is very high in such a tight drum.

For real-world, drumset applications, I'd highly recommend accentuating the second stroke. A poster below called it, "pull off". This, you would start with the stick approx. 1 inch from the head and you, in effect, pull the stick off the head upward... bring the stick back to 1" and repeat. The idea is to strengthen the the upstroke, so your second stroke in the double is as strong as the first REGARDLESS of how tight the head is you are playing on and also gives you good doubles on cymbals/hi-hats.

That's why I like to call it rebound control, with Lawrence Stone: there is obviously rebound, and we should use it to its fullest. When we need more than the rebound, we supply extra energy.

Casper

[aydee]

Think basketball.

Think bouncing the ball lower & lower till you are really low to the ground.

Slowly start pretending the ball is a drumstick.

Recreate the same feeling with a real drumstick.

* ( From Aydee's secret weapons for the different drummer )

[Therma lobsterdore]

My advice would be to get JoJo Mayer's DVD, it will clear up most of the hand technique questions that you have, then start practicing push/pull doubles for 20-30 mins a day at a slow tempo. I never liked the rebound only double stroke technique, it always felt wrong to me.

[Ian Ballard]

That's why I like to call it rebound control, with Lawrence Stone: there is obviously rebound, and we should use it to its fullest. When we need more than the rebound, we supply extra energy.

Casper

It's not a rebound, if you supply any additional energy. And Larry Stone was not playing loud rock and roll on slack-tuned toms either. Sometimes we have to evolve our thinking, when the paradigm of music changes. I love Stone's books and such, but it's 2009 and things have changed.

Again, I'm not going to steer somebody wrong, by making them think rebound is "enough" or mis-defining what a rebound truly is. I also understand that some drummers think "PA-da-PA-da-PA-da" sounds good.

But I really am remiss to give any real advice to anybody, unless I am examining their abilities in person. He should get a good teacher, and if no GOOD teachers are available, then we can utilize DVDs and other such sources to help.

We can go on and on and on and on about "rebounds vs. pull-ups", but at the end of the day, we are playing music and we do what is necessary to make that music sound good.

[Big_Philly]

Do anything you have to do in order to get lessons from a great teacher.


With that I can completely agree :)

[what the funk of it]

For me, the second stroke is all in the fingers (I use a matched grip btw). After the initial stoke, the rebound will be sending the stick back into it's original position. This is when you catch the butt end with your fingers and close them towards your palm. When I'm without sticks, I practice clapping with one hand (it is possible) to strengthen my fingers for this very purpose.

Stay loose, make sure you've got a good functioning fulcrum and of coarse, find a qualified teacher. Try practicing your doubles on the floor tom too. Its loose surface makes doubles very tough, but once you're back on the snare, you're flying.

Good luck and always keep practicing!

[Boomka]

It's not a rebound, if you supply any additional energy. And Larry Stone was not playing loud rock and roll on slack-tuned toms either. Sometimes we have to evolve our thinking, when the paradigm of music changes. I love Stone's books and such, but it's 2009 and things have changed.

The Laws of Physics and human physiology have changed? By the way, back in Stone's day, they were playing on calfskin heads that tuned themselves up and down with any mild change in the weather. Furthermore, adding energy to the stick doesn't negate the fact that there was energy (rebound) there in the first place. What we're talking about is control of the rebound. Unless we develop a (highly inefficient) technique whereby we completely stop all momentum in the stick before playing the second stroke of a double-stroke roll, we will always be utilising "rebound".

Most importantly, however, before we go dismissing Stone as a relic, we should recall what he actually had to say on the matter:

That age old cliche A chain is only as strong as its weakest link could be paraphrased thus: The drummer's roll is only as smooth as its secondary beat.

It is impossible to produce a "perfect" roll on a drum because, while the initial roll-beat of either stick is struck by hand (or finger) action, the following (the secondary) beat must be produced by rebounding - by bounce.

The bouncing of a drumstick may be compared with that of a rubber ball. In bouncing the ball to the floor, its initial impact produces a blow of given power, but the rebounds which follow strike with correspondingly less power, one by one, until the ball finally comes to rest.

The same principle applies to the rebounding of the sticks. Indeed, if the with either sticks or ball we could make rebounds (one or more) as strong in power as the initial impact, the sticks would rebound to perfection, the ball would bounce forever, and we would have discovered the secret of perpetual motion.

Hence we find there must ever be a certain degree of irregularity in power between our initial roll-beat and its rebound.

The following routines, in which rebounds often appear and are accented on the beat, are desgined to develop maximum control of rebounds to the extent that our rolls will, at least to the ear, most approximate "perfection"

-- G. L. Stone, REBOUND CONTROL (For the Two-beat Roll) in Accents and Rebounds pg. 16.

So, it seems that not only did ol' Larry Stone not suggest that we should simply live with uneven rolls played with rebound alone, he designed his exercises with the express purpose of alleviating this condition. Indeed, the technique that Stone taught (which I was also taught by one of his students) involved using the fingers to even out the sound of the double stroke roll.

[SEVNT7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAibGfOLXOw&feature=channel_page
.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSiiyJnuRK4&feature=channel_page....
http://www.youtube.....com/watch?v=0p5cy8tfe0E&feature=channel_page
From Metro Drum
Hope these help.......T

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

The Laws of Physics and human physiology have changed? By the way, back in Stone's day, they were playing on calfskin heads that tuned themselves up and down with any mild change in the weather. Furthermore, adding energy to the stick doesn't negate the fact that there was energy (rebound) there in the first place. What we're talking about is control of the rebound. Unless we develop a (highly inefficient) technique whereby we completely stop all momentum in the stick before playing the second stroke of a double-stroke roll, we will always be utilising "rebound".

Most importantly, however, before we go dismissing Stone as a relic, we should recall what he actually had to say on the matter:



-- G. L. Stone, REBOUND CONTROL (For the Two-beat Roll) in Accents and Rebounds pg. 16.

So, it seems that not only did ol' Larry Stone not suggest that we should simply live with uneven rolls played with rebound alone, he designed his exercises with the express purpose of alleviating this condition. Indeed, the technique that Stone taught (which I was also taught by one of his students) involved using the fingers to even out the sound of the double stroke roll.

Thanks, Boomka! good post. To paraphrase, rebound is not a choice, rebound just is.
Casper

[Ian Ballard]

The Laws of Physics and human physiology have changed?

I don't think so. But, the National Institute for Standards and Technology sure does...

By the way, back in Stone's day, they were playing on calfskin heads that tuned themselves up and down with any mild change in the weather.

Yes, they weren't spoiled by the amenities of today. However, we also are not graced with very good recordings of what drummers really sounded like back then, so it's hard to say for sure how good their technique was. Early Buddy recordings certainly showed he was miles ahead of any drummer before him.

Furthermore, adding energy to the stick doesn't negate the fact that there was energy (rebound) there in the first place.

Yes, and it is always diminished, no matter what you believe.

What we're talking about is control of the rebound. Unless we develop a (highly inefficient) technique whereby we completely stop all momentum in the stick before playing the second stroke of a double-stroke roll, we will always be utilising "rebound".

That is your opinion and not a law of nature... and you are entitled to it. If you are going to use words like "rebound", I feel they should be used in accurate context. I don't care how somebody "controls a rebound"... a rebound is a rebound. As soon as you purposefully alter the vector of the stick to do anything but 'bounce', it is no longer a rebound. It is something else. Of course, that is my opinion and not a law of nature.

Most importantly, however, before we go dismissing Stone as a relic, we should recall what he actually had to say on the matter:

Nice strawman. Never did I say he was a relic. I did say, if indeed he believe as such, that if he is implying a double-stroke roll requires a "rebound" to be smooth and correct, I respectfully disagree and attribute that to an archaic method. But since that's NOT what he believed (thanks for refreshing me on his opinion, by the way), the idea that his method is archaic is not true. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth and I'll refrain from assuming G.L. Stone was teaching "PA-da-PA-da" rolls... OK?

[Boomka]

That is your opinion and not a law of nature... and you are entitled to it.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. It patently is a matter of physics that even if I redirect the movement of the stick after it bounces off the head, a proportion of the energy moving the stick is an effect of the rebound. It's measurable.

It is, futhermore, measurable that the act of stopping the stick entirely and restarting it to produce a second stroke requires more force than redirecting the energy already contained in the stick. Hence "controlling the rebound" is a more efficient manner of playing a double stroke roll.

Argue the semantics of "rebound" all you like - ANY technique that creates the second stroke without first stopping the stick entirely is utilising inertia from the initial strike of the stick on the drumhead to some degree.

Nice strawman. Never did I say he was a relic. I did say, if indeed he believe as such, that if he is implying a double-stroke roll requires a "rebound" to be smooth and correct, I respectfully disagree and attribute that to an archaic method...

You're dissembling and making qualifications here that you didn't make before. You very clearly implied that Stone's methods are out of date in 2009.

But forget all that; I'm not interested in this turning into a pissing match. I'm sure we have more common ground than differences.

Here's where I'm coming from: There is more than enough evidence in favour of Stone's methods having continuing relevance in the number of serious players who currently implement them with great success. I'd say that rather than being irrelevant, the work of people like Stone, Moeller, Gladstone, Adler, Spivak, Morello, Roach, Dawson, Tony Williams, etc. is only just starting to be accepted and utilised by the wider percussion community. Twenty years ago, your average drummer would have stared blankly at the mention of "Moeller Technique". Today - for better or worse - the terminology (if not the precise technique) is used by everyone from top professionals to beginning novices. That simply wasn't true almost 30 years ago when I started playing. I got very lucky and had some early contact with a student of both Stone and Gladstone. And while you may be skeptical of my opinion, I can say without a hint of doubt that what I learned of their methods is put into good use every time I sit at the drums. And yes, I play rock on slack tuned toms some of the time.

The paradigm of playing drums hasn't shifted. They're round, you hit them with sticks. We continue to be constrained by the same physics and physiology as when the "multi-percussion instrument" (as Max used to call it) was first conceived. In my opinion - one you seem to partially share, judging by your posts - we would all be better served to dive as deeply into study of the aforementioned masters as we can manage and get every last nuance out of their contributions before declaring "a new paradigm". In my efforts to do the same, I've found time and again that they've already hit on the questions and problems that are being discussed in this thread (and many others) and set out to answer those challenges. In most cases, they produced impressive and pragmatic results, as the example of Stone's work we've discussed indicates.

[Unevil]

didn't read all of the posts, so not sure if I am just restating htis and you already got help so =P

I actually started learning doubles last year and am already fairly good at them--once you nail the general gist they get much easier.

First off, let your stick bounce on your pad/snare (also a tight drum head HELPS but technically you can double on a slice of cheese, even a desk works fine as long as you do not mind potentially wrecking it.) you notice that you get multiple bounces off of just dropping it. Now try using the free stroke-like technique in which you apply force to the drum stick, then let up on the stick once you get the stick moving towards the head.

For starters (I might get yelled at for teachin gyou bad habits, also I am not sure how to teach double stroke traditional as I only play matched) try performing the double strokes with your back three fingers off of the sticks. This, although bad technique (you SHOULD keep all fingers on your sticks) will help you to get the general motion of it down, and allows less tension on the stick so that more rebound is attained. After you get more used to playing like this you can get your fingers to rest on the stick to give your sticks more control over your stroke (once again, it IS bad technique but it is how I basically learned how to do it, without it I was basically practicing buzz rolls)

Just practice getting the rebound off of the stroke and then you can practice attaining control over the stick.

P.S. Don't feel bad about not being able to play doubles after 1 1/2 years, I have been drumming for 4 1/2 years and learned how to play doubles last year (more because before last year I didn't know they existed)

Good Luck

[BrutalKid]

First off, let your stick bounce on your pad/snare (also a tight drum head HELPS but technically you can double on a slice of cheese, even a desk works fine as long as you do not mind potentially wrecking it.) you notice that you get multiple bounces off of just dropping it. Now try using the free stroke-like technique in which you apply force to the drum stick, then let up on the stick once you get the stick moving towards the head.

For starters (I might get yelled at for teachin gyou bad habits, also I am not sure how to teach double stroke traditional as I only play matched) try performing the double strokes with your back three fingers off of the sticks. This, although bad technique (you SHOULD keep all fingers on your sticks) will help you to get the general motion of it down, and allows less tension on the stick so that more rebound is attained. After you get more used to playing like this you can get your fingers to rest on the stick to give your sticks more control over your stroke (once again, it IS bad technique but it is how I basically learned how to do it, without it I was basically practicing buzz rolls)




I should keep all my fingers on the stick? So how about the open close technique? Is it a technique for doing double stroke roll? The open close technique is to grab the stick for the second stroke, so, am I grabing the stick after the rebound for pull off?


And also, what sticks and practice pads make it easier for beginners? I find it it's quite hard to grab the stick for rebound, the stick is 5A , but it seems heavy. I use a plastic practice pad, is it better to use a rubber one?


Thank you all for helping me!

By the way I'm struggling to find a drum teacher, my old drum teacher couldn't play jazz and latin, so I stopped my lesson. It's really hard to find a GOOD drum teacher who understands different musical styles, and knowing how to teach a student.

[Boomka]

I recommend that you stop thinking about "open-closed", "push-pull", "you-name-it" technique for the moment.

Here is a simple exercise that can help get you started.

1. Simply drop (not throw, bash, or pound) the stick using your wrist from around 6 inches off the drumhead. Allow the stick to bounce off the drumhead until it runs out of energy. Keep your hand relaxed, don't squeeze at the fulcrum and don't close tightly at the back. You will need to allow the back three fingers to come away from the stick slightly, otherwise they will stop the stick from bouncing. However, do not splay your pinky and ring finger out to the side, keep them as close to the stick as you can without impeding the motion of the stick see-sawing around your fulcrum. Experiment until you get - at least - 3-4 well-spaced bounces before the stick starts to "buzz". Try to get the space between the first and second bounces as long as you can muster without throwing the stick any harder.Work one hand at a time. Keep at this until you can get the same sound consistently with each stroke.

2. Once you can get a consistent bounce out of the stick, try stopping the stick after 4 bounces. Don't squeeze hard, or use the wrist to lift the stick, simply use your back three fingers to pick up the stick. Your middle finger will play a huge part in this process. Concentrate so you can feel it pulling upward on the stick. Work until you are consistent with both hands.

3. Now stop the stick after 3 bounces. Work until you are consistent with both hands.

4. Now stop the stick after 2 bounces (a double stroke). Work until you are consistent with both hands.

5. Continue to work your hands seperately. Don't worry about putting them into time or rhythm just yet. You need to train your fingers to control the bounce.

6. Experiment with shortening and lengthening the space between the first and second bounces. This will be achieved by altering - ever-so-slightly - the pressure exerted upward on the stick by the back fingers - largely by the middle finger. Concentrate so that you can feel your middle finger doing this work.

7. As you gain more control over the second stroke, aim to make it the same volume - or even louder - than the initial stroke using a snap of the back fingers.

[Bryan77]

My advice would be to get JoJo Mayer's DVD,

That is my favorite dvd. It really dose help. It will teach you stuff that no teacher could teach you. I've been playing for 1 and a half years and I was ranked the number one drummer in rhold island. this movie helped a lot

[Daphfz]

just do 1 stroke and let it rebound, dont use any force wat-so-ever for the rebound, your hand should be totally still for the rebound stroke. i taught myself to do it also, dont practice on a drum to start off, use a practice pad, because it will take a long time to develop it. Just do your best to do a double stroke with your master/lead hand until you get it, then practice it over and over with that hand, then swtich to your secondary hand and do the same, once you've got a firm grasp of it with both hands then SLOWLY try and do it, double with lead, double with second, double with lead, double with second, in my case LlRrLlRr, (small case letter represents rebound). then build your speed, this will take a fair while, so go slowly.

[BrutalKid]

I recommend that you stop thinking about "open-closed", "push-pull", "you-name-it" technique for the moment.

Here is a simple exercise that can help get you started.

1. Simply drop (not throw, bash, or pound) the stick using your wrist from around 6 inches off the drumhead. Allow the stick to bounce off the drumhead until it runs out of energy. Keep your hand relaxed, don't squeeze at the fulcrum and don't close tightly at the back. You will need to allow the back three fingers to come away from the stick slightly, otherwise they will stop the stick from bouncing. However, do not splay your pinky and ring finger out to the side, keep them as close to the stick as you can without impeding the motion of the stick see-sawing around your fulcrum. Experiment until you get - at least - 3-4 well-spaced bounces before the stick starts to "buzz". Try to get the space between the first and second bounces as long as you can muster without throwing the stick any harder.Work one hand at a time. Keep at this until you can get the same sound consistently with each stroke.

2. Once you can get a consistent bounce out of the stick, try stopping the stick after 4 bounces. Don't squeeze hard, or use the wrist to lift the stick, simply use your back three fingers to pick up the stick. Your middle finger will play a huge part in this process. Concentrate so you can feel it pulling upward on the stick. Work until you are consistent with both hands.

3. Now stop the stick after 3 bounces. Work until you are consistent with both hands.

4. Now stop the stick after 2 bounces (a double stroke). Work until you are consistent with both hands.

5. Continue to work your hands seperately. Don't worry about putting them into time or rhythm just yet. You need to train your fingers to control the bounce.

6. Experiment with shortening and lengthening the space between the first and second bounces. This will be achieved by altering - ever-so-slightly - the pressure exerted upward on the stick by the back fingers - largely by the middle finger. Concentrate so that you can feel your middle finger doing this work.

7. As you gain more control over the second stroke, aim to make it the same volume - or even louder - than the initial stroke using a snap of the back fingers.

Thanks for helping, I will experiment this.

What rudiment should I practice apart from double stroke roll? Does ruff count?


Also, do you have any song that includes the double stroke roll?

[Boomka]

What rudiment should I practice apart from double stroke roll? Does ruff count?

If you're working on your double-strokes, just keep doing double-strokes. Ruffs can be played as combinations of interlaced doubles; e.g. the 4-stroke Ruff is just such a beast. But don't worry about that, yet. Stay focused. Learn to control the sticks one hand at a time and create a consistent secondary beat at approximately the same volume as your initial beat.

Once you have that together, then you can start to put them in time using the following method:

Practice each one many times before moving on.The key is to have your wrist strokes remain constant and indentical and use the rebound/fingers to achieve the secondary stroke.

RLRll RLRll RLRll RLRll
RLrrL RLrrL RLrrL RLrrL
RllRL RllRL RllRL RllRL
rrLRL rrLRL rrLRL rrLRL

When you can get a single set of doubles in time, evenly and consistently with either hand, then you can try combining them into short rolls:

RLRL RLrrll
RLRL RllrrL
RLRL rrllRL
etc.