How does Paiste do it?

[randomhero243]

We all know that B8 bronze is typically referred to as "sheet bronze" or just a a lower grade metal for cymbals. companies like sabian and zildjian use it for their entry level cymbals.

how is it possible that professional cymbals like 2002's are made from b8? especially since 2002s are one of the nicest sounding cymbals made?

[Guz2]

Because Paiste are amazing.

[TenPastTen]

Because Paiste are amazing.

I don't know how many posts this thread will end up with, but that's about as succint as it gets.

However, to expand a little, there is a difference between cheap material and cheap manufacturing. Sabian B8 is cheap material made cheaply. 2oo2s are cheap material made expensively i.e. hammering techniques and whatnot. Another scenario is what you have with Sabian Xs20 which is an example of "expensive" material (B20) made cheaply i.e. sheet metal, machine hammering.

Admittedly, I am not a cymbal historian, so I may have a little of this wrong, but that's my understanding.

[Guz2]

So would 2oo2s sound better if they were made out of more expensive metal?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

So would 2oo2s sound better if they were made out of more expensive metal?

Not at all. The inherent properties of B8 actually make them what they are. B8 is only cheaper because there is less tin content, it's not inherently a lower quality alloy. It's just that the companies use it in that context because it happens to be cheaper. It's not actually inferior at all - just different.

[KzSgDrummer]

So would 2oo2s sound better if they were made out of more expensive metal?


Perhaps, but that's entirely up to one's ear to decide. The one absolute is that it'd sound radically different.

The 2002s' bright and crystally personality comes from the B8 metal, and is what separates them from other rock lines like A's or AAX's or whatever. Using the higher grade B20 stuff would give them a much darker tonality, and they'd probably end up sounding more like something from the Signature line than a 2002. In other words, you'd lose the classic 2002 character.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

It has to do with hammering, lathing, etc..No magic is involved.

[trkdrmr]

There is a video or two on youtube showing (most of) the Paiste process. From what I have seen *all* Paiste cymbals are sheet bronze, none are cast.

If you like Paiste, then it's more important to pay attention to craftsmanship,vs the process of cast or sheet.

Paiste cymbals may have beaten Zildjian to the punch in terms of consistent sound. (Referring to using a reference) The cymbals are compared to a reference (Klangmuster) and they guarantee a Paiste will sound the same no matter where it was purchased.

I don't look at B8 as a "lesser" metal, except in terms of complexity of sound vs B20, not quality.

[DamoSyzygy]

Paiste have successfully been able to make a great cymbal with what is inherently a difficult alloy to work with. According to cymbalsmiths Ive talked with, B8 has a 'grain', much like a piece of wood, which makes it difficult to manipulate without damaging. Therefore, most companies tend to use B20 alloy for their higher-end cymbals, which accomodate higher levels of workmanship without risk.

[Ainulindale]

However, to expand a little, there is a difference between cheap material and cheap manufacturing. Sabian B8 is cheap material made cheaply. 2oo2s are cheap material made expensively i.e. hammering techniques and whatnot. Another scenario is what you have with Sabian Xs20 which is an example of "expensive" material (B20) made cheaply i.e. sheet metal, machine hammering.

nicely put, quality manufacturing is key, me i like to simplify - cymbals sound or they don't - it just seems Paiste has a lot of cymbals that sound good, regardless of what they are made of!

[trkdrmr]

Paiste have successfully been able to make a great cymbal with what is inherently a difficult alloy to work with. According to cymbalsmiths Ive talked with, B8 has a 'grain', much like a piece of wood, which makes it difficult to manipulate without damaging. Therefore, most companies tend to use B20 alloy for their higher-end cymbals, which accommodate higher levels of workmanship without risk.

I forgot to add: physical issues making a cymbal.

Heat, pressure, and alloy. Each company creates the metal or blanks using different melting/cooling techniques. They also use rollers to compress the sheets. And B8 is not always equal to B8.

Paiste B8 (referring to the ratio of tin/copper) might also have other metals/ingredients in the alloy. You can't really compare for example, Sabian b8 (like b8/b8 pro) to Paiste b8. There is a huge difference in hardness and consistency.

[Strangelove]

There are basically two different production techniques used at Paiste, as well as Sabian and Zildjan. For their lower cost cymbals, like PST's, Alphas, etc, they are machine made cymbals from sheet alloy. The 2002's, 20 series, Giant beats, Rudes, and Signatures are hand made from castings that get hammered, shaped and lathed. Here is their website:

http://www.paiste.com/e/about_tour.php?menuid=313

The alloy they use varies, but the 2002, Rudes, Giant Beats, PST's and Alphas use the CuSn8 alloy, which many people call B8, and was pioneered by them back in the 1960's. It is essentially 92 percent copper and 8% tin, versus the 80 percent copper and 20 percent tin alloy described as traditional turkish alloy. B8 has a brighter sound with a livelier decay than does the B20 traditional cymbal alloy. Signatures use an alloy that Paiste will not disclose, but is not B8.

http://www.paiste.com/e/about_alloys.php?menuid=314

The difference between Sabian's B8 and Paiste's 2002's, Giant Beats and Rudes? Primarily quality of manufacture. The latter are all hand crafted from castings, while S B8's are sheet rolled cymbals, like Paiste's Alphas and PST's. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare the B8's to PST's and Alphas. To my knowledge, there are no professional line of B8's other than those made by Paiste.

[hateplow]

From what I have seen *all* Paiste cymbals are sheet bronze, none are cast.



The "professional" lines are cast, not sheet.

Paiste cymbals are top notch. Love 'em!

[trkdrmr]

The "professional" lines are cast, not sheet.

Paiste cymbals are top notch. Love 'em!

Like the sigs? Ok... I know a Paiste mavin that insisted they were all sheet. I was impressed because of the hardness of the cymbals. "They punched THAT out of a sheet???" They do have a distinctive sound. He has a set of UFIP that were roto cast, and some paiste sig hats. Those have a crispness and "chick" that make his Saluda hats sound like a joke.

Stewart Copeland's Paiste's sounded super-crisp to me. I can't even remember (without looking them up) what he played then vs now. But, they remain some of my favorite Paiste based recordings.

[Strangelove]

If Zildjan would make something like A's or K's (or Sabian's with their cast, hand made cymbals) out of B8 then we would possibly have some true competition to the patented Paiste sound.

[Fiery]

The "professional" lines are cast, not sheet.
Nope, they too are sheet. Check the Paiste factory video with Nico McBrain, it's available on YouTube. There's just more human touch and love involved in high-end lines. PST and lower are made completely by machines with no human intervention.

The main reason why all B20 bronze cymbals are cast is because B20 bronze cannot be produced in sheets.

[Strangelove]

Here is a breakdown of Paiste's cast cymbals versus their sheet cymbals:

http://www.drumjunction.com/paiste.html

[hateplow]

Stewart Copeland's Paiste's sounded super-crisp to me. I can't even remember (without looking them up) what he played then vs now. But, they remain some of my favorite Paiste based recordings.

I believe he played exclusively RUDE cymbals during the early years.

[hateplow]

OK. In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOWafDm-vNs
at the Paiste factory, Nicko says "After casting and rolling, you get this..."
And holds up the Signature Alloy disc that will soon become a cymbal.

It looks like it was punched from a rolled sheet, though.

Now I'm a bit confused.

[guidrummer]

Paiste does more with the B8 bronze in the form of lathing and hammering to make them sound better. More labor, more machining = More expensive better sounding cymbal

Zildjian and Sabian are mainly stamping out B8 discs and sending them right out the door.
Less machining and hammering = Cheaper Cymbal to Make and Cheap Sounding Cymbal.

Paiste Signature Alloy is sheet bronze but these often get machine hammered and hand hammered and lathed.

Paiste Twenty cymbals are cast bronze. The blanks come from Turkey (same place as Meinl Byzance) and then are hammered and lathed at Paiste in Switzerland.

[Fiery]

After some research, I'd say that there isn't actually that much difference between cast and sheet per se (except in the case of Ufip cast cymbals). All bronze has to be melted and cast into some shape before further processing. "Cast" cymbals are made from smaller ingots rolled into cymbal-sized sheets. "Sheet" cymbals are cut out of much larger sheets made from bigger ingots. This is what it looks like to me, if someone has more knowledge on the subject, please correct me.

I believe companies such as Zildjian and Sabian are responsible for making "sheet" synonimous with "cheap" or "low-end" and "cast" with "quality" or "high-end". For this reasons, most people use the terms to relate to quality and/or price, instead of the actual production process.

[kgrubb]

Signatures use an alloy that Paiste will not disclose, but is not B8..
If i'm not mistaken isn't the signature alloy like B15?

[dkerwood]

What I want to know is this:

Why is it that Paiste cymbals sound so good on recordings, but so terrible live?

I've never met a Paiste that I've really liked, and I've owned almost a dozen over the years, and played on dozens more.

I know I'm coming across as a anti-fanboy, but I really can't find a single Paiste pie that produces a usable sound- especially if I'm trying to use it in conjunction with non-Paiste cymbals.

[Fiery]

It's a type of phosphor bronze, which typically have 3.5% - 10% tin and up to 1% phosphor. Could be that their alloy has more tin though.

[guidrummer]

What I want to know is this:

Why is it that Paiste cymbals sound so good on recordings, but so terrible live?

I've never met a Paiste that I've really liked, and I've owned almost a dozen over the years, and played on dozens more.

I know I'm coming across as a anti-fanboy, but I really can't find a single Paiste pie that produces a usable sound- especially if I'm trying to use it in conjunction with non-Paiste cymbals.

Do you think John Bonham's cymbals ever sounded good live?

Paiste definitely has a unique sound and flavor to their cymbals that is just plain different than Sabian and Zildjian. Not better, but just different.

It is hard to blend other brands of crash cymbals with Paiste because they have a different attack and sustain.

Also Paiste Signature Alloy doesn't always blend well with B20. 2002 B8 bronze definitely doesn't blend well with B20.

[Khaine88]

if im not mistaken meinl Mb 8's are also b8 bronze and ive seen a few professional drummers using them, including barry kerch from shinedown

[DamoSyzygy]

To my knowledge, there are no professional line of B8's other than those made by Paiste.
I think Meinl market the MB8 to be intermediate/high line.

If Zildjan would make something like A's or K's (or Sabian's with their cast, hand made cymbals) out of B8 then we would possibly have some true competition to the patented Paiste sound.
Sabian APX would be the closest competitor here.

2002 B8 bronze definitely doesn't blend well with B20.
It can, depending on the needs of the drummer.

[dkerwood]

Do you think John Bonham's cymbals ever sounded good live?


I don't know. I've never heard them live. :-)

[LM201]

What I want to know is this:

Why is it that Paiste cymbals sound so good on recordings, but so terrible live?


Are you serious!!?!?!?!?!

I can tell you my Paiste cymbals sound exactly the same as on the Paiste website. It freaks me out sometimes too

[hateplow]

What I want to know is this:

Why is it that Paiste cymbals sound so good on recordings, but so terrible live?



Yeah. Phil Rudd sucks live. And Danny Carey. Don't forget Dave Lombardo!

[Ruok]

I've shared this before, but I don't care for the sound of Paiste cymbals in general when heard alone or by themselves. When I first started purchasing pro quality cymbals in the mid 1980s, I stayed away from Paiste because I thought they were too gongy or had some weird overtones in them when I tested them in a store. But, I soon realized what many other Paiste players already knew....they sound much better when heard mixed in with other instruments and when heard on recordings. (I must confess though...I don't care much for the Signature line, either live or on recordings...sorry Sig lovers).

So now I'm a full blown Paiste fanatic because of this mysterious quality. My tip to those who don't care for Paiste's is to not judge them until you've heard them mixed in with the sound of other instruments or on recordings. Then, you may be pleasantly surprised how a "not-so-pleasing" sound turns into one of the best sounds you may have ever heard.

[Strangelove]

OK. In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOWafDm-vNs
at the Paiste factory, Nicko says "After casting and rolling, you get this..."
And holds up the Signature Alloy disc that will soon become a cymbal.

It looks like it was punched from a rolled sheet, though.

Now I'm a bit confused.

All cast cymbals get rolled and cut. Paiste's professional grade cymbals are no different from Zildjan and Sabian in this regard. This is a totally different process than cutting from stamped sheets, though.

[Strangelove]

I fell for the shimmering sustain of Paiste's crashes. But I admit, the sigs don't seem to have the same effect on me as 2002's, Giant Beats, and Rudes. I guess I am sold on B8 professional series.

[razorx]

Like the sigs? Ok... I know a Paiste mavin that insisted they were all sheet. I was impressed because of the hardness of the cymbals. "They punched THAT out of a sheet???" They do have a distinctive sound. He has a set of UFIP that were roto cast, and some paiste sig hats. Those have a crispness and "chick" that make his Saluda hats sound like a joke.

Stewart Copeland's Paiste's sounded super-crisp to me. I can't even remember (without looking them up) what he played then vs now. But, they remain some of my favorite Paiste based recordings.

He played all RUDE. He uses sigs now

[Skitch]

I believe he played exclusively RUDE cymbals during the early years.

Actually,

He was using the RUDE series allotment after the Synchronicity album came out, not before. The RUDE line wasn't available until 1984, so this leaves the early years, and recordings out of the mix for those cymbals.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[hateplow]

Actually,

He was using the RUDE series allotment after the Synchronicity album came out, not before. The RUDE line wasn't available until 1984, so this leaves the early years, and recordings out of the mix for those cymbals.


Mike



OK. BEFORE 1984 he used

Formula 602 13" Medium Hi-Hats
2-14, 16, 22" 2002 crash/ride
8 and 11" 2002 bells, splashes

I guess I was thinking of this picture, and considered it "early".

[dkerwood]

Yeah. Phil Rudd sucks live. And Danny Carey. Don't forget Dave Lombardo!

Don't know. Never heard them live.

I'm just saying that when I've had a Paiste in my hands, they've just sounded unpleasant. I used to own a Paiste 2002 crash/ride and a full set of Paiste 400 series. I loved them in high school (before I had any discrimination), but everything but the hats was stolen about ten years ago. I finally sold the hats about six months ago. I tried them out again before they went, and they sounded heavy and cheap- better than any beginning line perhaps, but not as good as any intermediate line I've played.

Then I got to play on a set equipped with Rudes... ick... I honestly thought that Rudes were Paiste's beginner line. So much trash and nothing musical about them (to my ear)...

Now I'm stuck with a Paiste Sound Formula Power Ride. The SF series is much lauded, so I was expecting this ride to be far superior to my Avedis ride. Well... no. The Zildjian has great ping, great wash, great overtones... and the Paiste has great... well, nothing. I hate everything about it. I've tried to pass it off to students and drummer friends alike, but nobody likes it. Heck, even the local drum store would only give me $80 for it because Paiste doesn't sell. So I've still got it in my hands until someone bites on the Craigslist ad.

I thought that maybe the Signature line would sound significantly better, but I finally played a crash, and it was the same thing as the SF- trashy, biting, unpleasant.

Since I have the tie to Paiste in my youth, I really want to like them, but I just haven't found any Paiste cymbals that measure up.

[gibeachhead]

Paiste is amazing, even their 201 bronze crashes. WOW the best sounding cymbals in that price range!

[Strangelove]

I used to play nothing but Zildjans. As far as I was concerned there was no other manufacturer that came close to their sound. But after owning a few 2002's and playing on Rudes and Giant Beats, I don't know what I was thinking. I attribute it to the stupidity of inexperience. I know Z's like to claim that dark sound, but to me, dark equates to dead. Their crashes fade too fast for my tastes. I suppose the B20 alloy they use is responsible for this effect. All that tin just doesn't have the musical tone that 92 percent copper can produce.

[kgrubb]

[QUOTE=Skitch;533721]Actually,

He was using the RUDE series allotment after the Synchronicity album came out, not before. The RUDE line wasn't available until 1984, so this leaves the early years, and recordings out of the mix for those cymbals.


Mike[QUOTE]
Actually the rude line came out in 1980.

[Big_Philly]

[B8]'s not actually inferior at all - just different.

Brighter and more cutting, to be precise.

[Strangelove]

I don't know who on this thread stated that B8 was inferior to or cheaper than B20. It is not either. B8 is actually more expensive to make as it has a higher copper content. Copper is more expensive than tin. Yes, Sabian's line of B8's are considered economy or cheap cymbals as they are machine made sheet cymbals. But they are nowhere near the same class as Paiste's professional B8's.

[guidrummer]

I don't know who on this thread stated that B8 was inferior to or cheaper than B20. It is not either. B8 is actually more expensive to make as it has a higher copper content. Copper is more expensive than tin. Yes, Sabian's line of B8's are considered economy or cheap cymbals as they are machine made sheet cymbals. But they are nowhere near the same class as Paiste's professional B8's.

As a raw material B8 would be higher than B20 bronze because it does have more copper. However, B20 bronze are cast bronze and require more labor to make. B8 bronze cymbals can be made pretty much entirely by machine from large sheets of bronze. The labor that goes into each B20 cymbal is what makes most B20 cymbals cost more than B8.

[Strangelove]

As a raw material B8 would be higher than B20 bronze because it does have more copper. However, B20 bronze are cast bronze and require more labor to make. B8 bronze cymbals can be made pretty much entirely by machine from large sheets of bronze. The labor that goes into each B20 cymbal is what makes most B20 cymbals cost more than B8.

I thought we already discussed this invalid rumor that Paiste cuts all their cymbals from sheets. Paiste's professional B8's are cast just like their Twenty series are. The alloy itself costs more than B20, so exactly how is B8 cheaper or lesser than B20?

[shoedaddy]

[QUOTE=Skitch;533721]Actually,

He was using the RUDE series allotment after the Synchronicity album came out, not before. The RUDE line wasn't available until 1984, so this leaves the early years, and recordings out of the mix for those cymbals.


Mike[QUOTE]
Actually the rude line came out in 1980.

I don't know where I saw this interview with Copeland, so I don't have the source, but I recall him saying that he used RUDEs live but not in the studio because they were too loud for recording. Talk about hearsay from me, though...

Anyway, I love the Paiste sound for its crispness and brightness. I've been confused before about whether they're cast or sheet and how you define those (and, honestly, still am). To me, Paiste does have a unique sound, but I like the sounds of Zildjians and Sabians, too (haven't had a chance to play many of the others out there). They're just different--a little more warmth, a little less crispness.

[trkdrmr]

Speaking of crispness... can anyone comment on the reflector series?

The sig's and 2002 seemed a bit clangy to me, although they did cut and sound decent inside music or a recording.

[KzSgDrummer]

I've shared this before, but I don't care for the sound of Paiste cymbals in general when heard alone or by themselves. When I first started purchasing pro quality cymbals in the mid 1980s, I stayed away from Paiste because I thought they were too gongy or had some weird overtones in them when I tested them in a store. But, I soon realized what many other Paiste players already knew....they sound much better when heard mixed in with other instruments and when heard on recordings. (I must confess though...I don't care much for the Signature line, either live or on recordings...sorry Sig lovers).

So now I'm a full blown Paiste fanatic because of this mysterious quality. My tip to those who don't care for Paiste's is to not judge them until you've heard them mixed in with the sound of other instruments or on recordings. Then, you may be pleasantly surprised how a "not-so-pleasing" sound turns into one of the best sounds you may have ever heard.

I started out as a Paiste nut (Bonham sold me on the 2002s when I was an impressionable teenager), but now I haven't bought any in the past seven years. Mostly Zildjians now, I've come to prefer the Z's shape-shifting decay to the uncompromisingly consistent tone and decay of a Paiste (more on that in a bit). I learned a decade ago of how Paistes sound best in the mix by way of a 2002 16" Medium that sounded utterly awful up close, and yet pretty darn good when playing with the band. However, I never got over how gongy and unmusical it was to the naked ear, so I sold it off after having it for no more than two years.

Back to the difference between Paistes and Zildjians (or Sabians), Paistes are very clear and consistent, very much "of one mind", whereas Zildjians seem to take random overtones, stick 'em together on a metal plate and make 'em work in some organic way. When you hear a Zildjian's decay, it sounds like you're physically moving around the cymbal, a la the Doppler Effect (http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~efortin/thesis/html/Doppler.shtml), and to my architecture-loving mind it creates a sinuous spatial atmosphere within the mix that's quite mysterious. A Paiste, by constrast, decays in a steady manner that seems more like an explosion that's spectacularly happening right in front of you.

Another way to look at it: a Zildjian's decay loses its high frequencies early, leaving a fat low-midrange body to ring out, whereas a Paiste loses more and more low frequencies the longer it vibrates, leaving nothing but a crystally shimmer hanging in the air.

did that make any sense?

[Big_Philly]

Speaking of crispness... can anyone comment on the reflector series?

They have glassy bright overtones, the same richness in sound but more emphasis on the overtones. I have a reflector power crash, it's really loud and cutting (that's probably not just because of the finish but also it's weight and design). Sabian APX has got nothing on them ;)

It's still pretty dynamic and musical. But I am thinking about replacing it with a Sabian AA or AAX cymbal of similar properties but with more warmth. It's a little harsh for me.

[guidrummer]

I thought we already discussed this invalid rumor that Paiste cuts all their cymbals from sheets. Paiste's professional B8's are cast just like their Twenty series are. The alloy itself costs more than B20, so exactly how is B8 cheaper or lesser than B20?


Not True. Paiste's B8 and Signature (B15) alloy are made from sheets of bronze.

[Strangelove]

[QUOTE=kgrubb;533981][QUOTE=Skitch;533721]Actually,

I've been confused before about whether they're cast or sheet and how you define those (and, honestly, still am).

In those youtube videos of the Paiste factory in Switzerland, they do not show the casting process - all you see is a finished blank. I suspect that may be because their casting, rolling, and cutting process is in Eastern Europe somewhere, maybe even in Estonia, where labor is more on foot with Turkey, where the Twenty series are cast, rolled and cut. This is probably where all the confusion arises. If you have never seen the cymbal making process, Sabian has an excellent description of it on their website, called "factory tour":

http://www.sabian.com/EN/aboutus/factory_tour.cfm

Professional cymbals get cast from ingots of alloy in small molds and then are rolled out, annealed, cut, etc into blanks. They are individually made. I am not sure how sheets are made, but I know that all of Paiste's sheet rolls go to their German Manufacturing facilities, and not their Swiss facilities. They explain that on their website. The Swiss facility only handles hand made, professional cymbals.

[Strangelove]

Not True. Paiste's B8 and Signature (B15) alloy are made from sheets of bronze.

OK, I called Paiste and asked them. They told me the only cymbals they cut from sheets are Alphas and PSTs. All the rest are cast. That would include all their professional B8 cymbals, Sigs and Twentys.

Where are you getting your information?

BTW, here is a pictoral tour of Paiste's Swiss production facilities:

http://www.dunnett.com/paiste/index.html

Looks like they're working with cast blanks to me.

[Ruok]

I started out as a Paiste nut (Bonham sold me on the 2002s when I was an impressionable teenager), but now I haven't bought any in the past seven years. Mostly Zildjians now, I've come to prefer the Z's shape-shifting decay to the uncompromisingly consistent tone and decay of a Paiste (more on that in a bit). I learned a decade ago of how Paistes sound best in the mix by way of a 2002 16" Medium that sounded utterly awful up close, and yet pretty darn good when playing with the band. However, I never got over how gongy and unmusical it was to the naked ear, so I sold it off after having it for no more than two years.

Back to the difference between Paistes and Zildjians (or Sabians), Paistes are very clear and consistent, very much "of one mind", whereas Zildjians seem to take random overtones, stick 'em together on a metal plate and make 'em work in some organic way. When you hear a Zildjian's decay, it sounds like you're physically moving around the cymbal, a la the Doppler Effect (http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~efortin/thesis/html/Doppler.shtml), and to my architecture-loving mind it creates a sinuous spatial atmosphere within the mix that's quite mysterious. A Paiste, by constrast, decays in a steady manner that seems more like an explosion that's spectacularly happening right in front of you.

Another way to look at it: a Zildjian's decay loses its high frequencies early, leaving a fat low-midrange body to ring out, whereas a Paiste loses more and more low frequencies the longer it vibrates, leaving nothing but a crystally shimmer hanging in the air.

did that make any sense?

Yeah. I think you stated that very well.

[Strangelove]

I have to agree. That is about the best use of language I have ever seen to describe the difference between Zildjans and Paistes.All I would add is that sometimes you get variations within a class of Zildjans that you don't get with Paistes. Paiste lovers will of course tout their consistency, but IMO it adds a bit of mystery to Z's and is why it is best to hear each one before you buy.

[trkdrmr]

I have to agree. That is about the best use of language I have ever seen to describe the difference between Zildjans and Paistes.All I would add is that sometimes you get variations within a class of Zildjans that you don't get with Paistes. Paiste lovers will of course tout their consistency, but IMO it adds a bit of mystery to Z's and is why it is best to hear each one before you buy.

I think that if you mic a cymbal and look at an x/y/z axis representation on an oscilloscope it would bear out those characteristics.

The Paiste's (for fans or non fans) do have a cleaner and more uniform waveform, at least the ones I have heard do.

I also think that why they are reported to record cleaner.

[Strangelove]

There is one Paiste recording that I have yet to ever hear from a real cymbal of theirs and it's Bonham's crash on Zep III. It has the most beautiful sparkling fallout. I know he used Giant Beats and the Traps Magazine inventory of his equipment says they were medium crashes. But I have never found a GB that sounds that majestic. Maybe it was the manner in which Page miked it, because no other album of theirs produces such a wonderful sounding crash.

[trkdrmr]

There is one Paiste recording that I have yet to ever hear from a real cymbal of theirs and it's Bonham's crash on Zep III. It has the most beautiful sparkling fallout. I know he used Giant Beats and the Traps Magazine inventory of his equipment says they were medium crashes. But I have never found a GB that sounds that majestic. Maybe it was the manner in which Page miked it, because no other album of theirs produces such a wonderful sounding crash.

..Another testament and cautionary tale of recordings. Like drums, cymbal sounds get electronically shaped. That's why the only time I trust the sound, is when it's in front of me without microphones.

[Fiery]

OK, I called Paiste and asked them. They told me the only cymbals they cut from sheets are Alphas and PSTs. All the rest are cast. That would include all their professional B8 cymbals, Sigs and Twentys.
Ok, this clears some stuff up. But I've yet to find an explanation of the difference in metal quality between blanks cut from large B8 sheets and blanks cut from individual B8 castings. I mean, even the big sheets have to start with a cast ingot, that gets rolled and stamped into a sheet.
Anyone?

[Strangelove]

Ok, this clears some stuff up. But I've yet to find an explanation of the difference in metal quality between blanks cut from large B8 sheets and blanks cut from individual B8 castings. I mean, even the big sheets have to start with a cast ingot, that gets rolled and stamped into a sheet.
Anyone?


Actually, I don't believe there is any. I have to admit, when I first heard of sheet cymbals, I thought they were forged, like sheet steel. But if you see this explanation from Paiste (under Paiste Cymbal Alloys), it is quite apparent that their large sheets are cast and rolled, just like individual castings are. The only difference is the size of the blank.

http://www.paiste.com/e/about_alloys.php?menuid=314

Now, if we could just get some metalurgical specialists to tell us if there is a difference, perhaps in atom structure, whether the cymbal is rolled from a single casting, or rolled in a sheet from a lrge casting, and cut into multiple blanks. Either way, they are both cast and rolled in the same manner.

[Steamer]

Actually, I don't believe there is any. I have to admit, when I first heard of sheet cymbals, I thought they were forged, like sheet steel. But if you see this explanation from Paiste (under Paiste Cymbal Alloys), it is quite apparent that their large sheets are cast and rolled, just like individual castings are. The only difference is the size of the blank.

http://www.paiste.com/e/about_alloys.php?menuid=314

Now, if we could just get some metalurgical specialists to tell us if there is a difference, perhaps in atom structure, whether the cymbal is rolled from a single casting, or rolled in a sheet from a lrge casting, and cut into multiple blanks. Either way, they are both cast and rolled in the same manner.

Cast B20 cymbals from hot metal in pots to individual ingots go through a VERY DIFFERENT process before finally in the hands of a artisan or machine for the next step hammering depending who is making them.

Research the complex process of the traditional cast ingot annealing method involving several trips back and forth from an oven to cymbal press including baths in a special cold water mix along the way to create a specific internal cross grain structure makeup to the metal and you will see the sheet process has very little if any similarity at all.

[Fiery]

I've seen a video from the Istanbul Agop factory, which is as traditional as it gets, and there is no cold water bathing between heating and rolling.
Anyway, B20 is different from B8, it's a lot less malleable so annealing between rollings is necessary in order for it not to become too hard and brittle. But I asked about the difference between "cast" and "sheet" B8 round blanks of sheet metal. Again, anyone? There must be someone with some knowledge of metalurgy.

[Steamer]

I've seen a video from the Istanbul Agop factory, which is as traditional as it gets, and there is no cold water bathing between heating and rolling.
Anyway, B20 is different from B8, it's a lot less malleable so annealing between rollings is necessary in order for it not to become too hard and brittle. But I asked about the difference between "cast" and "sheet" B8 round blanks of sheet metal. Again, anyone? There must be someone with some knowledge of metalurgy.

The bath portion{s} is not shown in the condensed factory video but is an important step in the traditional annealing process of the B20 metal. They also don't show the bell press in that video as another example but it's part of the process.

Cast undergo a very different method than sheet as I clearly indicated so this probably applies to the other B8 pies in question in this thread.

[Fiery]

You can clearly see castings go into the oven, then through the rolling machine, be left to cool, then back into the oven. The only point at which they could be dipped in water is after they cool down and before they go into the oven again, but this would make no sense.
I do believe water cooling is used at one point, but that would probably be at the end, after bell stamping but before hammering, and this would be called tempering, not annealing. I can't be sure though, because I haven't actually seen the whole process.

But, again, B20 is different than B8, and the only reason this is done with B20 cymbals is because it couldn't've been done any other way. The verdict is still hanging for "cast" B8 cymbals.

[harryconway]

Paiste invented CuSn8 somewhere back around 1965, as far as I know. First with the Stambul 65 series, and later used with the Giant Beat and 2002 series. I don't know who on this thread stated that B8 was inferior to or cheaper than B20.
That would be the OP of this thread. I think Sabian did everyone a great dis-service in calling their "affordable" line B8. And then B8 Pro. Being that Sabian was founded in 1981, some 16 years after Paiste came up with the CuSn8 formula (B8).

[Steamer]

You can clearly see castings go into the oven, then through the rolling machine, be left to cool, then back into the oven. The only point at which they could be dipped in water is after they cool down and before they go into the oven again, but this would make no sense.
I do believe water cooling is used at one point, but that would probably be at the end, after bell stamping but before hammering, and this would be called tempering, not annealing. I can't be sure though, because I haven't actually seen the whole process.

But, again, B20 is different than B8, and the only reason this is done with B20 cymbals is because it couldn't've been done any other way. The verdict is still hanging for "cast" B8 cymbals.

The tempering as you call it which also considered a wash for the cymbals with a special mixture is towards the end of the final initial annealing process before heading to the bell press so you are quite correct. Still it's an important stage and element in the traditional process involved in individually cast B20 cymbals. Neither the tempering/wash or bell press is included in the Istanbul Agop production video footage. Again this is for B20 pies.

Can't help with the particulars of B8 castings i'm afraid.

[Ian Ballard]

Not at all. The inherent properties of B8 actually make them what they are. B8 is only cheaper because there is less tin content, it's not inherently a lower quality alloy. It's just that the companies use it in that context because it happens to be cheaper. It's not actually inferior at all - just different.

Actually, I'm not too sure if the price point, has anything to do with the tin content. To my understanding, copper commands a much higher price than tin, on the market. The primary cost that goes into any product is labor. The more people it takes to take a raw material and turn it into a product, the more the product is going to cost. Humans always seem to be the best judge and creator of, musical instruments so it's not surprising that more humans involved with cymbal making, creates a better instrument. Paiste uses people to test and examine the cymbals in every process, as well as a modicum of hand-hammering to get a cymbal as close to the reference model as possible.

The fact B8 bronze cymbals typically sound bad and are cheap, has nothing to do with more copper content. It has everything to do with the method and manufacture of the thing, and the attention to detail that goes into it. B8 has an inherently higher pitch and a less complex character, so it requires some work to give it a more complex and deep sound. But to it's advantage, it projects better than B20, with all other factors being even.

I think companies like Zildjian and Sabian, avoid using B8 for pro cymbals, because they used the old formula that was used in antiquity and also was used for weapons and hunting tools. It's more a tradition thing, than a "superior" thing, to me. We heard the tradition of B20 cymbals, and it sits a certain way with us. On the other hand, some drummer want non-traditional sounds.

[Strangelove]

Actually, I'm not too sure if the price point, has anything to do with the tin content. To my understanding, copper commands a much higher price than tin, on the market. The primary cost that goes into any product is labor. The more people it takes to take a raw material and turn it into a product, the more the product is going to cost. Humans always seem to be the best judge and creator of, musical instruments so it's not surprising that more humans involved with cymbal making, creates a better instrument. Paiste uses people to test and examine the cymbals in every process, as well as a modicum of hand-hammering to get a cymbal as close to the reference model as possible.

The fact B8 bronze cymbals typically sound bad and are cheap, has nothing to do with more copper content. It has everything to do with the method and manufacture of the thing, and the attention to detail that goes into it. B8 has an inherently higher pitch and a less complex character, so it requires some work to give it a more complex and deep sound. But to it's advantage, it projects better than B20, with all other factors being even.

I think companies like Zildjian and Sabian, avoid using B8 for pro cymbals, because they used the old formula that was used in antiquity and also was used for weapons and hunting tools. It's more a tradition thing, than a "superior" thing, to me. We heard the tradition of B20 cymbals, and it sits a certain way with us. On the other hand, some drummer want non-traditional sounds.


You are correct, B20 is actually cheaper than B8 as an alloy. Tin is less expensive than copper.

My own personal experiences with both B20 and B8 date me, but I was playing when Paiste kind of took drummers by storm in the 1970's. I played nothing but Avedis Zildjans back then, and never went with the wave, as I tend to avoid fads like the plague. Other drummers (particularly rock drummers) liked the way Paistes could cut through the stacks of 100 and 200 watt Marshalls and Ampeg on either side of them, their explosiveness, higer pitch and longer sustain or decay - they were a sound that was totally new, and before you knew it, many, if not most of the name drummers of the era went Paiste (Police, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, ZZ Top, Eagles, etc). Which Paiste's? Giant Beats, 2002's and Rudes, of course, all B8's. Zildjans had that old traditional sound, and Paiste's were on the cutting edge. Today, there seems to be a real resurgance in B20 cymbals, and as far as I can tell more drummers seem to be looking for a "dark" sound and sometimes trashier sound in cymbals. I never remember even hearing that term back in the 70's and 80's. Plus there seems to be more attraction to retro or traditional things today than there were back then. Then adding on all of the marketing ploys by manufacturers today, and one can get real confused.

The way I see it, there is no "cheaper than" involved here, except those who are brand loyal trying to trash other brands. Yes, Sabian's B8's are less expensive than Zildjan A's and K's, or Sabian's handmade B20's. But they are also less expensive than GB's, 2002's and Rudes, so we're not really comparing B8 to B20 there, only manufacturing techniques which have nothing to do with the alloy. Paiste, Zildjan, Sabian, Meinl, Bosphorus, TRX, Agop, all offer well made professional cymbals. Some handmade cymbals may cost more to produce than others, but that doesn't make them better. It all boils down to your ears, and what is important to you as a drummer. 9 out of 10 listeners could not tell you the difference between any of the major manufacturers, so it's only you that must be pleased.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Looks like I stand corrected on the front of material cost.

In that case, the cymbal prices are certainly rather inflated - particularly with regards to Zildjian's higher end lines who don't actually use any human processes at all!

[Fiery]

The way I see it, there is no "cheaper than" involved here, except those who are brand loyal trying to trash other brands. Yes, Sabian's B8's are less expensive than Zildjan A's and K's, or Sabian's handmade B20's. But they are also less expensive than GB's, 2002's and Rudes, so we're not really comparing B8 to B20 there, only manufacturing techniques which have nothing to do with the alloy. Paiste, Zildjan, Sabian, Meinl, Bosphorus, TRX, Agop, all offer well made professional cymbals. Some handmade cymbals may cost more to produce than others, but that doesn't make them better. It all boils down to your ears, and what is important to you as a drummer. 9 out of 10 listeners could not tell you the difference between any of the major manufacturers, so it's only you that must be pleased.
The whole deal with Sabian/Zildjian and B8 is that you cannot produce cheap B20 cymbals, but you can produce cheap B8 cymbals. B20 can't be produced in large sheets like B8, for example, and a lot more labor has to go into an average B20 cymbal than into an average B8 cymbal. There is also the whole "B20 is the most musical cymbal alloy" deal, but that's another story.

[RMS]

Yeah, but the automatic hammering machines and computers probably cost quite a bit...not to say they haven't re-couped that a long time ago...but it still takes electricity (probably lots of it) to run it. But, yes, it's cheaper than manpower or else Zildjian wouldn't do it.

Also, Zildjian still lathes every professional series cymbal individually by hand, as far as I'm aware. Besides the Earth Ride and other unlathed cymbals, obviously.

I think Paiste may look at their machines a bit differently, more as a means of getting every cymbal in a particular series/model to sound more or less the same, rather than a cost-cutting measure.

[Strangelove]

. There is also the whole "B20 is the most musical cymbal alloy" deal, but that's another story.

Yes and here is where we delve into the ridiculous. Let me guess where this rumor started - some marketing department no doubt. The only difference is in the ears and minds of those playing them. One is not superior to the other by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure Paiste could lay a ridiculous claim that B8 is a more musical alloy because of it's rich overtones and lively decay and that B20 sounds dead in comparison. This whole debate between the two is about opinion, not reality. As for B20 being more labor intensive than B8, Zildjans are less labor intensive than 2002s, Rudes, and Giant Beats, so that claim cannot be made about B20 in general.

[Steamer]

Yes and here is where we delve into the ridiculous. Let me guess where this rumor started - some marketing department no doubt. The only difference is in the ears and minds of those playing them. One is not superior to the other by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure Paiste could lay a ridiculous claim that B8 is a more musical alloy because of it's rich overtones and lively decay and that B20 sounds dead in comparison. This whole debate between the two is about opinion, not reality.

Personally and professionally speaking i'll stick with B20 alloy, Turkish individually cast and hand shaped B20 alloy cymbals that is :}

B20 is just far more warmer, complex and richer in tonal character to my ear over any B8 pie i've ever heard.

Paiste makes great cymbals don't get me wrong but they all are to bright, high pitched, brittle and cutting sounding for me ears for mixing in for acoustic jazz situations with other acoustic instruments where B20 "feels" just right within the music, Opinion yes understood with due respect but based on a "sound choice" within the music where it counts for me. Other acoustic jazz players may prefer the sound of B8 Paiste cymbals but not for me. I'll stick with the richer, warmer, more complex sound of B20 to my ears.

[Fiery]

As for B20 being more labor intensive than B8, Zildjans are less labor intensive than 2002s, Rudes, and Giant Beats, so that claim cannot be made about B20 in general.
This is true, but it is so by choice, not necessity. You cannot get B20 cymbals with much less labor then Zildjian does now, while you can get B8 with much less then 2002s and others get.
The important thing is not to forget that not all B8 cymbals are made as cheaply as possible.


Also, Zildjian still lathes every professional series cymbal individually by hand, as far as I'm aware. Besides the Earth Ride and other unlathed cymbals, obviously.

I think Paiste may look at their machines a bit differently, more as a means of getting every cymbal in a particular series/model to sound more or less the same, rather than a cost-cutting measure.
Yes, lathing is pretty much the only thing that's still done by hand at Zildjian.

Zildjian machine-powered hammering and Paiste machine-powered hammering is quite different, because at Zildjian it's computer controled, while at Paiste it's human controlled (Paiste cymbalsmiths control the position and angle of each hammer blow by hand and the strength by feet). Though it's still not pure hand-hammering, there is a lot of difference between the two.