Coated Ambassador drum head

[wbb25]

Would this be a sufficient drum head for switching from Jazz to Rock, and vise versa, if tuned properly?

[genericdrummingusername]

YES






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[Steady Freddy]

Would this be a sufficient drum head for switching from Jazz to Rock, and vise versa, if tuned properly?

The Remo coated Ambassador is one of the most recorded heads of all time.

The industry standard for single ply mylar heads.

Can't go wrong.

[Nodiggie]

Would this be a sufficient drum head for switching from Jazz to Rock, and vise versa, if tuned properly?

I agree with the posts here. It is the most recorded head of all time. Well, it is also the oldest head of all time. If you wish to dish out some punishing back beats with this head it will be great for a little while then the coating will start to come off rather quickly. Other than the coating being short lived, they sound great. A little too open for my taste.

[remoking]

I agree with the posts here. It is the most recorded head of all time. Well, it is also the oldest head of all time. If you wish to dish out some punishing back beats with this head it will be great for a little while then the coating will start to come off rather quickly. Other than the coating being short lived, they sound great. A little too open for my taste.

I agree with the other posts as well.

[Ainulindale]

the Ambassador Coated can really hold any tone on a snare - a good choice... of course nothing wrong with Evans Genera Coated either... or Aquarian Focus X...
good hunting ;-)

[Aggressivec]

No. Go with Aquarian.

[TheArchitect]

Would this be a sufficient drum head for switching from Jazz to Rock, and vise versa, if tuned properly?

Yes, its would be fine

[dkerwood]

I love the coated Ambs... I have them on every single drum except my brass snare (too ringy) and my kick, of course. Every other snare I own has a Remo Amb on it. I also like Evans Genera Dry on snares, but I often get the Remo Ambs in the pre-packs for a little cheaper, so the price makes my decision between equally good heads. I should note that I've never had any problem with the coating coming off... ever. I did, however, try an Aquarian single ply coated head once, and that bad boy started flaking in about three days.

As far as retuning, well, I don't even retune my toms between jazz and rock- higher toms sing out better anyway.

I auditioned for a band a few months ago and they had 10, 12, 14" toms... tuned just past wrinkles. Yuck; I had to pound the snot out of them to cut through. My 10, 12, 16 toms, however? They can cut if I tap 'em, and roar when I hit a little harder.

[KarlCrafton]

Would this be a sufficient drum head for switching from Jazz to Rock, and vise versa, if tuned properly?

IMO/E, Yes, they are great heads, with a very wide tuning range. High, low, & everything in between.
For a single ply, they can get surprisingly deep tones too if you want that sound.

Coated Ambassadors are my favorite head for every drum batter (even the bass drum)--Coated Emp, or Coated Emp top dot for more durability on the snare for Rock or heavier playing, but the Ambassador sounds great on the snare if you don't need to worry about durability, or having to change it out more frequently.

[DrewTheShoe]

To avoid restating anything previously said:

Yes. Just yes.

[caddywumpus]

Why, don't you like switching out your heads? I do. I get this huge rush from getting new sounds from the same drums.

I typically use coated ambs for jazz and coated emps for rock. Clear versions for studio sessions (engineers seem to love articulation for some reason...???). Oh, and when it comes to "Ambassador vs. G1" and "Emperor vs. G2", I don't hear that much of a difference. Just in case THAT silly argument comes up...

[bobdadruma]

I played Coated Ambassador's for about twenty years. I still use them from time to time. You can play any type of music with them.

[caddywumpus]

I played Coated Ambassador's for about twenty years. I still use them from time to time. You can play any type of music with them.

I'm just curious (not trying to be confrontational or anything)...can you, or anyone, give an example of a commonly-found drumhead and a style of music that simply aren't compatible?

I hear people say, "it's so versatile" and "can be used with any style" so often, I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Can somebody PLEASE fill in this equation for me...???...

(A) heads can NOT be used in (B) style of music. Solve for A and B. Go.

[dkerwood]

I'm just curious (not trying to be confrontational or anything)...can you, or anyone, give an example of a commonly-found drumhead and a style of music that simply aren't compatible?

I hear people say, "it's so versatile" and "can be used with any style" so often, I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Can somebody PLEASE fill in this equation for me...???...

(A) heads can NOT be used in (B) style of music. Solve for A and B. Go.

Hydraulics or even Pinstripes (at times) for jazz. Too dead for my ear. Fiberskyn for rock.

Quite honestly, you can tune ALMOST any head to get almost any style. A Renaissance head can be treated with moongel to work for rock studio gigs (if you want), but it's easier to use heads tailored more closely for specific sounds rather than trying to force a head out of its specific design.

[caddywumpus]

Hydraulics or even Pinstripes (at times) for jazz. Too dead for my ear. Fiberskyn for rock.

Quite honestly, you can tune ALMOST any head to get almost any style.

What gig can I show up at and the bandleader is going to not hire me back because of the heads on my kit? For that matter, the cymbals on my kit? For that matter, the brand on my drums? It's mostly personal choice (with some outside influences thrown in to boot). So what if I show up to a jazz gig with hydraulic heads? "This Tony Williams guy showed up and started playing with center-dot heads---he'll never work on my bandstand again!!!"

[dkerwood]

What gig can I show up at and the bandleader is going to not hire me back because of the heads on my kit? For that matter, the cymbals on my kit? For that matter, the brand on my drums? It's mostly personal choice (with some outside influences thrown in to boot). So what if I show up to a jazz gig with hydraulic heads? "This Tony Williams guy showed up and started playing with center-dot heads---he'll never work on my bandstand again!!!"

Ah, but if you show up to that jazz gig with a Bonham-sized kick, wood beater, hydraulic heads tuned down as low as possible, a marching snare with a kevlar head, a couple of electronic trigger pads, and all Z Custom cymbals... I'd say that even the best jazz player in the world wouldn't be able to keep the gig.

You have to go to extreme and specific ends, but there are certainly pieces of gear that are better suited to specific genres. You wouldn't show up to a metal audition with a bop kit, a set of vintage Ks, a Slingerland snare, and a Speedking pedal. You COULD, of course, but it wouldn't exactly sound "right". In this case, "right" really only means "what we're used to," so there's no RULE to say that you have to have a certain type of sound... but that rhetoric won't change the fact that it won't get you the gig.

[dkerwood]

What gig can I show up at and the bandleader is going to not hire me back because of the heads on my kit? For that matter, the cymbals on my kit? For that matter, the brand on my drums? It's mostly personal choice (with some outside influences thrown in to boot). So what if I show up to a jazz gig with hydraulic heads? "This Tony Williams guy showed up and started playing with center-dot heads---he'll never work on my bandstand again!!!"

Further, sometimes it's just a tiebreaker. Sure, you might be just as good of a jazz player on your Tama drums with Ebony heads, brass 14x8 snare, and Metal AAX cymbals... but the equivalent player with a vintage Ludwig and HH pies gets the "expected" sound a bit more easily.

I guess it's similar to the question some of my coworkers would ask when I worked selling shoes on commission. "Why should I have to dress up?" they'd ask. "Our society is so much more casual," they'd complain. I would never answer, but on "jeans day" or "t-shirt day" or whatever, I made FAR more commission wearing suit and tie because people were more comfortable spending money with a professional looking sales person. I could have tried to buck the system, pointing out that people should look at me and the product without pre-judging me by my clothing... or I could be making more money.

Same way, I could go around trying to prove that I can play any genre on gear specifically tailored for another genre (how about jazz on an electric kit) and that it's far more about the musician than about the gear... OR I could actually get the gig instead. Rhetoric or reality.

[caddywumpus]

Ah, but if you show up to that jazz gig with a Bonham-sized kick, wood beater, hydraulic heads tuned down as low as possible, a marching snare with a kevlar head, a couple of electronic trigger pads, and all Z Custom cymbals...

That WOULD be an interesting set up for a jazz gig. I'd like to see that!


I'd say that even the best jazz player in the world wouldn't be able to keep the gig.


With this kind of non-forward thinking, how is music ever going to change? If we just do things the same-old same-ol', how is music going to progress? It takes at least somebody to step out of the mold and attempt something completely new for there to be change.

Also, what about the argument for, "it's not the drums, but the player?" I guess that's tossed out the window now, too...

[dkerwood]

That WOULD be an interesting set up for a jazz gig. I'd like to see that!



With this kind of non-forward thinking, how is music ever going to change? If we just do things the same-old same-ol', how is music going to progress? It takes at least somebody to step out of the mold and attempt something completely new for there to be change.

Also, what about the argument for, "it's not the drums, but the player?" I guess that's tossed out the window now, too...

Well, Caddy, I totally agree with you, but the question is this- do you want to change things, or do you want to get work? The simple fact is that most of the people who hire musicians (including other musicians) want to hear what they are used to hearing. They don't want new. That's not to say that you can't do it. It's just to say that it'll be a much harder road.

I like to play. I've been playing long enough to be decent at the stuff people expect to hear, and yet short enough that it's not boring to me yet. So for right now, I'm a realist. I like to play as often as I can, and part of that is making others happy.

[caddywumpus]

Oh, I totally want to continue working, don't get me wrong. I was playing the role of the idealist for a sec...

[bobdadruma]

I'm just curious (not trying to be confrontational or anything)...can you, or anyone, give an example of a commonly-found drumhead and a style of music that simply aren't compatible?

I hear people say, "it's so versatile" and "can be used with any style" so often, I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Can somebody PLEASE fill in this equation for me...???...

(A) heads can NOT be used in (B) style of music. Solve for A and B. Go.You know, You're right! Why can't you use any type of head that you want. I am currently using Aquarian Performance IIs with Power Dot. They are supposed to be tuned loose but I am tuning them tight and I like them better that way. I have been switching them back and forth with my Remo's for about a year now! I also use Evans hydraulic from time to time. It depends on my mood. I am like you, I like change every now and then. Why not change things from time to time. Variety is the spice of life! Why can't you play a Jazz ride with a Paiste 2002? If you like it then use it! No one has ever said to me that my playing was good but you have to change your heads or your cymbals! I get compliments on my sound all the time. I frequently use different combinations of heads and cymbals.

[dkerwood]

You know, You're right! Why can't you use any type of head that you want. I am currently using Aquarian Performance IIs with Power Dot. They are supposed to be tuned loose but I am tuning them tight and I like them better that way. I have been switching them back and forth with my Remo's for about a year now! I also use Evans hydraulic from time to time. It depends on my mood. I am like you, I like change every now and then. Why not change things from time to time. Variety is the spice of life! Why can't you play a Jazz ride with a Paiste 2002? If you like it then use it! No one has ever said to me that my playing was good but you have to change your heads or your cymbals! I get compliments on my sound all the time. I frequently use different combinations of heads and cymbals.

Personally, I'm lucky when I can replace heads at all. Heads are EXPENSIVE. My heads have to last me 2-3 years. Thus, if I make a bad choice (and by "bad," I just mean "I like it less"), I'm stuck with it for a while. Now, I will buy different types of heads when they're on sale just to try them. I'm always digging through the bargain bin at my local drum shop (slightly used drumheads usually for $1-3)... but I always come back to coated single ply. They do the best job of doing everything that I need.

As for cymbals... well... I haven't really gotten to the point where I have enough for that many "options." Still working on that. I have a quiet ride and a full range ride. I have a set of 2 modern crash cymbals, 2 vintage crash cymbals, and 2 hand hammered crashes. I've only got one set of hats (not much can improve over vintage New Beats, IMHO), and my splash and china.

[bobdadruma]

Personally, I'm lucky when I can replace heads at all. Heads are EXPENSIVE. My heads have to last me 2-3 years. Thus, if I make a bad choice (and by "bad," I just mean "I like it less"), I'm stuck with it for a while. Now, I will buy different types of heads when they're on sale just to try them. I'm always digging through the bargain bin at my local drum shop (slightly used drumheads usually for $1-3)... but I always come back to coated single ply. They do the best job of doing everything that I need.

As for cymbals... well... I haven't really gotten to the point where I have enough for that many "options." Still working on that. I have a quiet ride and a full range ride. I have a set of 2 modern crash cymbals, 2 vintage crash cymbals, and 2 hand hammered crashes. I've only got one set of hats (not much can improve over vintage New Beats, IMHO), and my splash and china. I would like to mention this. In spite of what many people say, you can reuse drum heads! I have been doing this for over thirty years! If the head is good, you can mount it and re-torque it. Don't be afraid to recycle drum heads! I have traded heads with other drummers also in the past and they worked fine. If you mount the head and it will tune, it is OK! As far as cymbals go, I am like Jay Lenno with cars! Cymbals just seem to find me! I buy them new and used, I trade them, I borrow them. When I don't want them anymore I sell them or donate them to schools. They are the Saffron of drumming, By this I mean that they are the color base for many spices! A drummer cannot have enough cymbals! Try all of them that you can, whenever you can!

[caddywumpus]

I would like to mention this. In spite of what many people say, you can reuse drum heads!

Who says you can't reuse heads? Fools!

If you couldn't reuse heads, I would spend so much money on them. For example, when I'm in the studio, engineers (typically) want the attack of a clear head, then they ask me to try putting coated heads on to see what it sounds like, then they say, "no, that's not it--go back to the clear heads." That would get spendy pretty darned quick! I guess it's my fault for bringing extra heads with me, which might encourage that kind of curiosity, but it's not so bad when I'm getting paid by the hour...

I have several sets of heads. Clear 1-ply, clear 2-ply, coated 1-ply, and coated 2-ply...and a few for each individual drum in most cases. The heads with less use get used in the studio and the more heavily used ones I use live.

[bobdadruma]

Who says you can't reuse heads? Fools!

If you couldn't reuse heads, I would spend so much money on them. For example, when I'm in the studio, engineers (typically) want the attack of a clear head, then they ask me to try putting coated heads on to see what it sounds like, then they say, "no, that's not it--go back to the clear heads." That would get spendy pretty darned quick! I guess it's my fault for bringing extra heads with me, which might encourage that kind of curiosity, but it's not so bad when I'm getting paid by the hour...

I have several sets of heads. Clear 1-ply, clear 2-ply, coated 1-ply, and coated 2-ply...and a few for each individual drum in most cases. The heads with less use get used in the studio and the more heavily used ones I use live. I have read many times and in many different places over the years that you shouldn't reuse heads and you should replace them frequently. Propaganda from head manufactures I suppose! I never bought into it.

[Cymbalrider]

I think about half the drumheads on the market don't need to be there. There's all these super thick multiple ply heads with internal dampening, dry vents, rings, power dots and such. The heads that I've seen to always be best for any situation are regular single ply heads. Two-ply heads I can understand as long as they are wide open, if you are one of those people who beat drums instead of play them. Coated, Clear, Etched, Laminated--that's your choice but just don't muffle the things. External dampening like moon gels or internal (the old mufflers they used to put in drums) are fine if say you are in a super small place with say wood floors or something like that. Too many people now have drums that sound like cardboard being hit with a broomstick. Evans heads seem to have a thicker more dead center sound btw. The best sounding drums I've ever heard were kits like Louie Bellson and Buddy Rich who had all coated Ambassadors (Dave Weckl does too but he's got a lot of electronic assistance with his kit) Coated Ambassadors will work great for whatever you can fit them on. Evans G1 Coated heads are fine too, but just have a stiffer feel and thicker sound I personally don't care for, but you might. I've only tried Aquarians once and the coated heads flaked everywhere, but I heard they had issues for a while with their new factory.

[dkerwood]

I would like to mention this. In spite of what many people say, you can reuse drum heads! I have been doing this for over thirty years! If the head is good, you can mount it and re-torque it. Don't be afraid to recycle drum heads! I have traded heads with other drummers also in the past and they worked fine. If you mount the head and it will tune, it is OK!

Definitely! I used to be lucky enough to have a friend who provided backline drums for touring bands. He'd buy a set of heads for a specific drummer and then give them to me when he didn't want/need them (which was often). I've since moved, and he's gotten a "real" job, so I now have to find my own heads.

I think in my life I've bought maybe 2 new snare heads, 3 new tom heads, and one new bass drum reso. All the other heads I've procured have been used purchases, re-used stuff from friends, off-shoots from schools, wrong sizes that other people bought, or heads that were originally on drums that I had before (funny how that beat up Ambassador is the first thing to come off of a snare, but then is the first thing to go ON the next snare that comes through my hands).

Even the beat-up 15 year old clear Ambassadors that were on my old Ludwig got a new life on some of my older gear later in life...

[Birdman]

Uhh, don't think heads wear out, and shouldn't be sent to the trash heap (shoes and tires do wear out)

Check this out -- at about the 4:19 marker, look at what that drum head is doing, in actuallity. Unbelievable, and proof that old heads are that, old and no good anymore, in relative terms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gxut0odyc

[KarlCrafton]

Oh man, that looked awesome! Wow.
The cymbal too, that's incredible....whowodathunkit?

As for the thread...coated Ambassadors for me on toms and kick, coated Emp, or coated Emp w/top dot on the snare.

They just work great, and never sound bad or out of place--and they last for me.

[remoking]

Oh man, that looked awesome! Wow.
The cymbal too, that's incredible....whowodathunkit?

As for the thread...coated Ambassadors for me on toms and kick, coated Emp, or coated Emp w/top dot on the snare.

They just work great, and never sound bad or out of place--and they last for me.

I actually saw that clip on Time Warp the other day hah....I couldn't believe it either...

[Funky Crêpe]

what is the actual difference between ambassadors and vintage a's???
im a jazz player and am wondering if the vintage a's are good?

[dkerwood]

what is the actual difference between ambassadors and vintage a's???
im a jazz player and am wondering if the vintage a's are good?

I don't understand what you're asking. To my knowledge, "Vintage A's" always refers to older Zildjian Avedis cymbals. I could be wrong, of course, but that's the only "Vintage A" I'm aware of.

Ambassadors work great for jazz. If you want a slightly more vintage sound, there's always the fiberskyn heads...

[Michael G]

By Vintage A, he means the line of Remo heads that come out not too long ago called Vintage A heads.

what is the actual difference between ambassadors and vintage a's???
im a jazz player and am wondering if the vintage a's are good?

They are essentially the same thing as Ambassadors, same thickness, just instead of 1 ply of 10mm it has 2 of 7mm and 3mm (around those lines). It was to model the first Remo heads that were invented in the late 50s. It never made sense to me, as the first plastic heads were not popular at all. It wasn't until years later they caught on and drummers started switching from calfskin.

As far as sound goes, I never personally heard one, but I really don't see it as anything to jump through hoops for. They'll sound a little different sure, so if you want to go for it and see if you like it better then go for it.

[wolfmoon]

what is the actual difference between ambassadors and vintage a's???
im a jazz player and am wondering if the vintage a's are good?

from Remo's site: http://www.remo.com/portal/products/3/8/50/ds_coated.html

Vintage A the head that changed the world in 1957! Constructed of 2-ply 7.5- and 3-mil polyester film, this drumhead changed the art of drumming around the world as the first successful alternative to calf heads.

The Coated Ambassador® heads are medium-weight heads made with a coated single-ply 10-mil Mylar® film to produce a warm open, bright, and resonant sound with a warm attack. Coated Ambassador® heads are the standard of the industry for both live and recording situations.

[Skitch]

Ah, but if you show up to that jazz gig with a Bonham-sized kick, wood beater, hydraulic heads tuned down as low as possible, a marching snare with a kevlar head, a couple of electronic trigger pads, and all Z Custom cymbals... I'd say that even the best jazz player in the world wouldn't be able to keep the gig.

I'm going to have to disagree with on this as will history as there were plenty of jazz players who used 22" and 24" bass drums, a couple of which were/are Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson. The ONLY reason that 18" bass drums have become the accepted bop kit is that this was the biggest size bass drum which would fit into a taxi cab in New York City. Yes, the 18" became part of the sound, but not the only acceptable sound. It wasn't the tone, as some claim, and this is coming from a chat with a guy who was there! You couldn't get a 20" bass drum through the door of a taxi.



You have to go to extreme and specific ends, but there are certainly pieces of gear that are better suited to specific genres. You wouldn't show up to a metal audition with a bop kit, a set of vintage Ks, a Slingerland snare, and a Speedking pedal. You COULD, of course, but it wouldn't exactly sound "right". In this case, "right" really only means "what we're used to," so there's no RULE to say that you have to have a certain type of sound... but that rhetoric won't change the fact that it won't get you the gig.

Actually, I saw a drummer using a Manu Katche kit on a rock gig the other night. He uses it on this gig regularly because he is tired of lugging a bunch of crap around. The bass drum, by the way s a 16" and not even an 18". With the drum head options available, he has made this work. And he works six nights a week and can be loaded up and on the road in about 15 minutes! Another drummer I know of uses a Gretsch Catalina bop kit - 18" bass drum with an EMAD on it. Another rock drummer. Yes, in both instances, the drums are miked, but when was the last time the kick drum wasn't miked on a rock gig?

In all honesty, it is the touch that the drummer possesses and not the gear. I played a house gig on kit that wasn't mine including the cymbals which were Sabian XS20s. I thought they sounded great and I didn't have to bring a bunch of my stuff. As I write this, I remember a clinic with Bermuda Schwartz stating that "How the most expensive cymbals aren't always what records the best." If I recall correctly, he said something about how many drummers would be suprised at how many cheap cymbals were actually used in the studio because the mics pick them up better.

Is there a certain snob appeal to seeing what we expect? You bet! But it isn't the only factor. While I respect your argument about dressing professional - which is true, this a case of apples to oranges as I have seen many drummers play in a jazz band with pinstripe heads on a Tama 5 piece Rockstar kit with less than "jazz" cymbals and sound absolutley brilliant! And guess what - he doesn't care! One guy even a had a Taz caricature sticker on the front of his bass drum. It is the hand which wields the sword which makes the sword potentially lethal.




So now that I have had my say, Yes, the Coated Ambassador is the best drum head I can think of for the original question. I use a coated Ambassador on the snare and clear Ambassadors on my toms (both sides).


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[wolfmoon]

Some interesting points... I may try these or Evans G1's on my 14, 16 and 18 sometime.

[dkerwood]

I'm going to have to disagree with on this as will history as there were plenty of jazz players who used 22" and 24" bass drums, a couple of which were/are Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson. The ONLY reason that 18" bass drums have become the accepted bop kit is that this was the biggest size bass drum which would fit into a taxi cab in New York City. Yes, the 18" became part of the sound, but not the only acceptable sound. It wasn't the tone, as some claim, and this is coming from a chat with a guy who was there! You couldn't get a 20" bass drum through the door of a taxi.

Actually, I saw a drummer using a Manu Katche kit on a rock gig the other night. He uses it on this gig regularly because he is tired of lugging a bunch of crap around. The bass drum, by the way s a 16" and not even an 18". With the drum head options available, he has made this work. And he works six nights a week and can be loaded up and on the road in about 15 minutes! Another drummer I know of uses a Gretsch Catalina bop kit - 18" bass drum with an EMAD on it. Another rock drummer. Yes, in both instances, the drums are miked, but when was the last time the kick drum wasn't miked on a rock gig?


I was just talking about the extremes. You wouldn't reasonably show up to play jazz with a marching snare or popcorn snare. You probably wouldn't show up to play that same gig with a 22" china and a 10" splash. How about an electronic kick? You could play, sure, but unless you're playing some crazy progressive jazz, the bandleader would probably not ask you back (if he's interested in a traditional sound).

I'm not talking about using "abnormal" gear and miking or tuning to make it sound "normal"- I'm totally in favor of that. I'm simply saying that there are some sonic expectations of certain genres. I've lost jazz bass gigs to other guys just because I play electric instead of upright bass. I could have played those gigs as well (if not better) as those other guys, but the bandleader wanted that SOUND.

If you want to be progressive, you can do whatever you want. If your interest is working a lot, though, you need to embrace some "standards" and try to do what you can to sound "normal" for the genre.

[TheArchitect]

I'm going to have to disagree with on this as will history as there were plenty of jazz players who used 22" and 24" bass drums, a couple of which were/are Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson. The ONLY reason that 18" bass drums have become the accepted bop kit is that this was the biggest size bass drum which would fit into a taxi cab in New York City. Yes, the 18" became part of the sound, but not the only acceptable sound. It wasn't the tone, as some claim, and this is coming from a chat with a guy who was there! You couldn't get a 20" bass drum through the door of a taxi.

Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson were playing big band music. While technically part of the jazz family the needs are very different than small group jazz. You would be very hard pressed to use anything bigger than a 20" and still get authentic, stylistically appropriate sounds.

As for the rock dudes, using the small drums, I have tried the EMAD and other similar heads and they just don't sound right. It can be done but there is a lot of compromise to do it.

[KarlCrafton]

You would be very hard pressed to use anything bigger than a 20" and still get authentic, stylistically appropriate sounds.

Say's who?
A smaller or larger bass drum could be played at a level that is appropriate for the setting, but the size and sound of the actual instrument is up to the player.
If the player can make it work, then it's appropriate.

As for the Vintage A Remo head. (Vintage Emp's are coming out too).

I only have one (a 14) and to be honest I didn't like it.

It was not as crisp as the regular Ambassador, kind of dull sounding, and even though it is thinner than a coated Emperor, the Emp sounded more full and not at all flat.
I was told by a couple guys at the shop that they sound better after they are played in a little, but who wants to put up with a sound they don't really like until that happens?

The Vintage Emp is 2 plies of 7.5 white film. The white film makes a difference in the sound and action.
I remember being kinda torqued when Remo changed to the clear film a few years ago, but I actually like the clear film a little better. The sound is more open and crisp with a coated clear film.
But, if you need a thicker attack, and real solid tone for your music, the 'Vintage Emp" will be good to try out.
Actually, you could always order the Emps with White film, but it was one of those things that stores didn't stock and it wasn't the "standard" Emp Remo was selling anymore (for whatever reason).

[Skitch]

Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson were playing big band music. While technically part of the jazz family the needs are very different than small group jazz. You would be very hard pressed to use anything bigger than a 20" and still get authentic, stylistically appropriate sounds.

As for the rock dudes, using the small drums, I have tried the EMAD and other similar heads and they just don't sound right. It can be done but there is a lot of compromise to do it.

What about Tony Williams? I don't think he used anything other than a 24" for quite sometime. Max Roach when he was with Ludwig? Mickey Roker? These guys didn't use 18" bass drums exclusively. Neither did Art Blakey! Yeah, he automatically sucks for not having an 18" bass drum!

Yes, if you are purist, then an 18" bass drum is all you will ever use. And it will say Gretsch on it and be a round badge and cost you a fortune. The hardware will be crap by today's standards.

And if you are purist, then your eighties drum kit will be mamoth have blankets in the kick drum(s) and pinstripes with deadringers on the toms (both sides) and some unknown snare drum head with gobbs of duct tape on the snare. You will also spend more money on makeup than any supermodel and spend more time setting up at a gig than you did in the car actually getting there! Am I being ridiculous -SURE just as is this argument that in order to be a proper jazz player, a drummer MUST have a Gretsch round badge kit consisting of an 18" Bass Drum, a 12" tom, a 14" Floor tom with no more than three cymbals or they aren't really a jazz drummer! I was in a band in college with another drummer by the name of Trevon who played a Tama Rockstar kit and 30 minutes of listening to him play would make your head swim. And he didn't care about having the 18" bass drum!

I will agree with you about the EMAD as they tend to have a click sound and not much else. And that was my impression form the sound board - lots of high end and no meat to the drum - and this was on a 22" bass drum!


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

I was just talking about the extremes. You wouldn't reasonably show up to play jazz with a marching snare or popcorn snare. You probably wouldn't show up to play that same gig with a 22" china and a 10" splash. How about an electronic kick? You could play, sure, but unless you're playing some crazy progressive jazz, the bandleader would probably not ask you back (if he's interested in a traditional sound).

Actually the 22" China works well as I saw drummer in a lounge act in Vegas at the Gold Coast while I was on tour with a Country act. It was a cheap Wuhan and the drummer used it tastefully as an alternate ride cymbal sound, as did my teacher, Paul Bowman on some of his gigs. Bandleaders aren't always right; some are just interested in playing out their little-league football coach fantasy on everyone who is willing to take it. I would give you an example in my life from last month, but that is peripheral to this discussion.




I'm not talking about using "abnormal" gear and miking or tuning to make it sound "normal"- I'm totally in favor of that. I'm simply saying that there are some sonic expectations of certain genres.



Certainly....and I have also seen great drummers go into a situation with the "socially unacceptable gear" and sound like a million bucks!




I've lost jazz bass gigs to other guys just because I play electric instead of upright bass. I could have played those gigs as well (if not better) as those other guys, but the bandleader wanted that SOUND.

It more than likely was their loss.


Is one thing to tell a bandleader that you play upright bass but show up with an electric and I am not saying that you, personally did that. In my little world, there isn't enough good paying jazz work to justify having the "proper" equipment; I make do with what I have - they say DW on them. And I don't think that they audience is savy enough to care. They see drums and hear drums which is good enough for them.



If you want to be progressive, you can do whatever you want. If your interest is working a lot, though, you need to embrace some "standards" and try to do what you can to sound "normal" for the genre.

Actually, I do work a lot mainly because I am plyable, play dynamics appropriately and have a good skill set to draw from. However, some bandleaders believe that if a drummer shows up with more than two toms and three cymbals, that the drummer is being a jerk. And this a band which plays songs like Separate Ways, Don't Stop Believing and other songs on which more than a four piece drum kit was used. Some bandleaders have aneed to make certain that everyone around "knows" that the bandleader is the only smart person in the whole wide world - believe me, i have had to work with too many of these jerks. These guys, by the way, spend a lot of time complaining how the world isn't fair, can't play anything that isn't in the real book and fall flat on their face when trying to play Mustang Sally.

Me - I prefer to copy the drum part note for note myself; it comes in handy ocassionally like when you play it that way and then happen to see Steve Smith standing next to the stage, not mention it makes for a good reference point for the rest of the band and lets them relax and do their job.

And sometimes, your statement of being interested in working a lot, means being a really good drinking buddy, which I am not. I like to spend my money on the best gear I can afford or something really stupid like keeping a roof over my head, not on placating some guy who's mad at the world because he didn't get breastfed at birth.


As much as you think that I am arguing with you, I actually agree with what you are saying. My point is though, that it is supposed to be about the music and not a brand or an appearance or what the bandleader thinks is best. We can thank MTV for all of this crap!

Yes, I have diareaha of the mouth right now and I am venting just a little right now.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[TheArchitect]

What about Tony Williams? I don't think he used anything other than a 24" for quite sometime. Max Roach when he was with Ludwig? Mickey Roker? These guys didn't use 18" bass drums exclusively. Neither did Art Blakey! Yeah, he automatically sucks for not having an 18" bass drum!

Yes, if you are purist, then an 18" bass drum is all you will ever use. And it will say Gretsch on it and be a round badge and cost you a fortune. The hardware will be crap by today's standards.

And if you are purist, then your eighties drum kit will be mamoth have blankets in the kick drum(s) and pinstripes with deadringers on the toms (both sides) and some unknown snare drum head with gobbs of duct tape on the snare. You will also spend more money on makeup than any supermodel and spend more time setting up at a gig than you did in the car actually getting there! Am I being ridiculous -SURE just as is this argument that in order to be a proper jazz player, a drummer MUST have a Gretsch round badge kit consisting of an 18" Bass Drum, a 12" tom, a 14" Floor tom with no more than three cymbals or they aren't really a jazz drummer! I was in a band in college with another drummer by the name of Trevon who played a Tama Rockstar kit and 30 minutes of listening to him play would make your head swim. And he didn't care about having the 18" bass drum!

I will agree with you about the EMAD as they tend to have a click sound and not much else. And that was my impression form the sound board - lots of high end and no meat to the drum - and this was on a 22" bass drum!


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

Whatever man. If you can't find the point I ain't drawing you a map.

[dkerwood]

Actually the 22" China works well as I saw drummer in a lounge act in Vegas at the Gold Coast while I was on tour with a Country act. It was a cheap Wuhan and the drummer used it tastefully as an alternate ride cymbal sound, as did my teacher, Paul Bowman on some of his gigs.
Hmm... extract foot from mouth here. Not sure why I typed 22" china... Actually, the first time I ever properly heard a china (aside from the $5 12" ones that everybody bought and then stored in their closet ever since) was in college jazz band. It was a 22" Wuhan with rivets. Man, for some reason, that sucker sounded CHOICE. I've been searching for that sound ever since, and the only thing that has come close is a 20" K Custom hybrid... ah, but I digress.


Is one thing to tell a bandleader that you play upright bass but show up with an electric and I am not saying that you, personally did that. In my little world, there isn't enough good paying jazz work to justify having the "proper" equipment; I make do with what I have - they say DW on them. And I don't think that they audience is savy enough to care. They see drums and hear drums which is good enough for them.
And 90% of the time, I think that's absolutely true. The audience doesn't know anything about 4- versus 5-, 6-, or 7-piece. I think they might notice if someone set up a double bass hair metal kit with matching chinas up above and a gong behind... :-) They'd also notice if you came out wearing the leather, spandex, and eyeshadow to match.

I'm just saying there's an aesthetic to consider, both in sound and visually. You can usually make anything you own work in the music if you're flexible and adaptable. I'm simply pointing out that in some extreme ends of genres, there is a serious expectation of how things should sound and how things should look. Right or wrong, that's just reality.



Actually, I do work a lot mainly because I am plyable, play dynamics appropriately and have a good skill set to draw from. However, some bandleaders believe that if a drummer shows up with more than two toms and three cymbals, that the drummer is being a jerk. And this a band which plays songs like Separate Ways, Don't Stop Believing and other songs on which more than a four piece drum kit was used. Some bandleaders have aneed to make certain that everyone around "knows" that the bandleader is the only smart person in the whole wide world - believe me, i have had to work with too many of these jerks. These guys, by the way, spend a lot of time complaining how the world isn't fair, can't play anything that isn't in the real book and fall flat on their face when trying to play Mustang Sally.

If you come out and do things appropriately, you'll generally be ok (as you obviously know). From a guitar standpoint, I totally understand. You show up to a church worship gig with a Flying V guitar, an Iceman, or even an SG, and some people will find it inappropriate. Show up to a metal gig with a Gibson 335 hollowbody, and people will scoff. Bring a board full of effect pedals to a jazz gig, and people will think that guitarist is being a jerk. Trust me, I know.

I sometimes look at it, though, and discover that maybe I am being a bit of a jerk... or at the very least, a gear nerd. If I'm playing a jazz drum gig, do I really need seven cymbals splayed out around me? Probably not. If I'm playing a jazz guitar gig, do I really need that heavy distortion pedal? Almost unequivocally NO. Sometimes I bring out the full rig, which arguably contains a lot of overkill, but I do it because I want to have as many creative tools at my disposal as possible. Sometimes, though, I know that I won't be able to use those tools appropriately, no matter how creative I want to try being.

Now, of course some guys who write out the checks for musicians will be jerks. That's their prerogative since they're writing out the checks. If we as hired guns don't care for it, we just don't take the gig next time. Because I just moved to a new city and am trying to build a new reputation, I tend to play it safe and bring out the gear that is generally appropriate. Then as I learn the specific situation, I'll expand as I find it appropriate. If some leader wants to tell me that my 22" bass drum isn't appropriate because jazz uses 18", or that my Ambassador heads are wrong because I need authentic calfskin... Well, I guess I just won't answer that call the next time, because I'm certainly not going to buy a new kick or bother with changing heads between every gig.

And sometimes, your statement of being interested in working a lot, means being a really good drinking buddy, which I am not. I like to spend my money on the best gear I can afford or something really stupid like keeping a roof over my head, not on placating some guy who's mad at the world because he didn't get breastfed at birth.

As much as you think that I am arguing with you, I actually agree with what you are saying. My point is though, that it is supposed to be about the music and not a brand or an appearance or what the bandleader thinks is best. We can thank MTV for all of this crap!

Nah, it was around wayyy before MTV. MTV just packaged the whole thing and presented it in one bite-sized portion at a time.

My simple point is this: You can make the guy who writes the checks happy, or you can make yourself happy with your personal philosophy. If you can do both though, then EVERYBODY is happy.

[Skitch]

Whatever man. If you can't find the point I ain't drawing you a map.


Geez...I was think the same thing about you simply because you have close-minded, identity-foreclosed, myopic view which isn't open to any possibilities other than what some marketing department tells you to believe! I show up and do my job with the gear I have; if that isn't good enough for the Grestch or jazz snobs in the crowd - so be it!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

Hmm... extract foot from mouth here. Not sure why I typed 22" china... Actually, the first time I ever properly heard a china (aside from the $5 12" ones that everybody bought and then stored in their closet ever since) was in college jazz band. It was a 22" Wuhan with rivets. Man, for some reason, that sucker sounded CHOICE. I've been searching for that sound ever since, and the only thing that has come close is a 20" K Custom hybrid... ah, but I digress.


And 90% of the time, I think that's absolutely true. The audience doesn't know anything about 4- versus 5-, 6-, or 7-piece. I think they might notice if someone set up a double bass hair metal kit with matching chinas up above and a gong behind... :-) They'd also notice if you came out wearing the leather, spandex, and eyeshadow to match.

I'm just saying there's an aesthetic to consider, both in sound and visually. You can usually make anything you own work in the music if you're flexible and adaptable. I'm simply pointing out that in some extreme ends of genres, there is a serious expectation of how things should sound and how things should look. Right or wrong, that's just reality.




If you come out and do things appropriately, you'll generally be ok (as you obviously know). From a guitar standpoint, I totally understand. You show up to a church worship gig with a Flying V guitar, an Iceman, or even an SG, and some people will find it inappropriate. Show up to a metal gig with a Gibson 335 hollowbody, and people will scoff. Bring a board full of effect pedals to a jazz gig, and people will think that guitarist is being a jerk. Trust me, I know.

I sometimes look at it, though, and discover that maybe I am being a bit of a jerk... or at the very least, a gear nerd. If I'm playing a jazz drum gig, do I really need seven cymbals splayed out around me? Probably not. If I'm playing a jazz guitar gig, do I really need that heavy distortion pedal? Almost unequivocally NO. Sometimes I bring out the full rig, which arguably contains a lot of overkill, but I do it because I want to have as many creative tools at my disposal as possible. Sometimes, though, I know that I won't be able to use those tools appropriately, no matter how creative I want to try being.

Now, of course some guys who write out the checks for musicians will be jerks. That's their prerogative since they're writing out the checks. If we as hired guns don't care for it, we just don't take the gig next time. Because I just moved to a new city and am trying to build a new reputation, I tend to play it safe and bring out the gear that is generally appropriate. Then as I learn the specific situation, I'll expand as I find it appropriate. If some leader wants to tell me that my 22" bass drum isn't appropriate because jazz uses 18", or that my Ambassador heads are wrong because I need authentic calfskin... Well, I guess I just won't answer that call the next time, because I'm certainly not going to buy a new kick or bother with changing heads between every gig.

Nah, it was around wayyy before MTV. MTV just packaged the whole thing and presented it in one bite-sized portion at a time.

My simple point is this: You can make the guy who writes the checks happy, or you can make yourself happy with your personal philosophy. If you can do both though, then EVERYBODY is happy.


Like I said, I really am on your side on this; it is just good to think outside the box every once in a while. After all, there once was a philosophy which said that a drummer would never be able to use a Trick throw-off on a Ludwig snare. Certainly, I believe in keeping the guy who writes the checks happy - that's why I work so much! And I will do that until I am the guy who writes the checks! Then I will fire myself!


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[lewisn27]

Why, don't you like switching out your heads? I do. I get this huge rush from getting new sounds from the same drums.
Yeah, I get excited when I take a new head out the box, it's kind of weird.