Stupid Drum sizes?

[randomhero243]

why is that standard drum kit sized with 12 13 and 16 toms. to me it makes no sense. if a fusion set goes 10 12 14 why wouldn't they go 12 14 16. i cant stand that its a 13 and now that i have bought a 14in tom its a pain in the ass to buy new heads individually


any reason why they would a 13 instead of a 14 or is it just a weird pet peeve for me?

[Deltadrummer]

The standard kit was a twelve inch tom or thirteen inch tom and one or two sixteen inch tom until the sixties. I actually think the smaller 12-14 toms came into the game with bop drummers in the late 40's. But don't know this for sure, and it may be that the 14 x14 was not available until the 60's on the Ludwig club kit. . Guys would have wanted to have the configuration of the idols; guys like Rich and Bellson. In the 60's, manufacturers started to offer two 12" or two 13" toms on a a kit. As that was impractical, drummers started to exchange drums with each other so that they would have a 12" and 13' rather than two of the same sizes. It seems kind of funny but drummers used two 16's rather than a 14 and 16, which like you say would have made more sense, 12" 14" 16". Then in the 70's the fusion sizes became more popular because drummers started to move away from the lower end toms. They found the higher pitched toms better for recording. Drummers also liked the tuning options that toms sizes separated by 2" gave them.

I have a 10-12-13-14 inch set up and really don't know what to do with the thirteen Since I have my toms tuned a forth and sixth above the floor tom. So I tune the 13 a minor third. Doesn't really give me what I want. I think the 12-13-14-16 is a new standard size and is becoming popular' but the he manufacturers may not have caught up yet.

[jjmason777]

I too am not a fan of the 13" tom. I use 14, 16, 18 toms on my 1 up 2 down rock kit. (14" snare, and 24" kick) Works for me.

[mrchattr]

I would guess, and that's all it is, that it has to do with drum placement. Smaller drums are easier to place, especially when you are thinking about the standard set up, with the toms above, and often mounted on, the bass drum. Especially since the tom that you are talking about tends to push the ride cymbal further away.

[randomhero243]

exactly what im saying. 2 inch increments are the best. i do a much by 2's pr even numbers. i prefer my toms 2 inches shallower than the diameter. and i prefer them to go by 12x10. 14x12 and 16x14


individual heads are just downright annoying and more expensive.

[Deathmetalconga]

There's probably some obscure historical reason why odd sizes like 13 and 15 persist.

Personally, I think it would be great if drums were made in even and odd sizes all the way from 5 to 30 inches and beyond. It's only for the convenience of manufacturers that drums are made mostly in even sizes. DW has a 23-inch bass drum and I think that's neat.

[mrchattr]

There's probably some obscure historical reason why odd sizes like 13 and 15 persist.

Personally, I think it would be great if drums were made in even and odd sizes all the way from 5 to 30 inches and beyond. It's only for the convenience of manufacturers that drums are made mostly in even sizes. DW has a 23-inch bass drum and I think that's neat.

I always thought it was overkill. Even when the greats do it. Neil Peart is using a 23" bass drum right now. Why? Could he (and by that I mean his tech) REALLY not get the sound he wanted from a 22" or 24" drum? Really? I find that hard to believe. I mean, I can understand a few inches in difference, but a one inch difference tends to have tuning overlaps. You can get most of the same sounds on a 22" and a 23", and the little low end that you can get out of a 23" that you can't out of a 22" is already available on a 24". But that's just me.

[drumguyfromWI]

what I don't like is how pretty much all batter head pre-packs are for kits that have two rack toms and one floor tom.

what about drummers like me that use a kit with only one rack tom and one floor tom? or drummers that use one rack tom and two floor toms?

it's like making us buy a head that we aren't going to use.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I read an interview in one of my magazines, I think Drumhead, where Peart was touring the DW factory and asked if they could make him a 23 to see how it sounded. They are not about to tell him no.

[Deathmetalconga]

I always thought it was overkill. Even when the greats do it. Neil Peart is using a 23" bass drum right now. Why? Could he (and by that I mean his tech) REALLY not get the sound he wanted from a 22" or 24" drum? Really? I find that hard to believe. I mean, I can understand a few inches in difference, but a one inch difference tends to have tuning overlaps. You can get most of the same sounds on a 22" and a 23", and the little low end that you can get out of a 23" that you can't out of a 22" is already available on a 24". But that's just me.

You might be right, but other factors come into play, like tuning and head type.

The only way to know for use is to build drums in inch sizes. There wouldn't be a huge difference in sound, but many people would buy them, for whatever reasons, and I think the drum companies are missing out on a large market by only offering mostly even sizes exclusively

[Deltadrummer]

The same thing for cymbals. I don't know when they started manufacturing odd sizes; but I know a lot of guys prefer them. I don't, but I love my 15" fast crash. It's my favorite cymbal. The 21" rides can be very nice as well.

As far as toms go. I have a 15" tom and really do not like it. I always had a 13" but it is only over the last couple of years that I have come to not have a use for it.

[what the funk of it]

I always thought it was overkill. Even when the greats do it. Neil Peart is using a 23" bass drum right now. Why? Could he (and by that I mean his tech) REALLY not get the sound he wanted from a 22" or 24" drum? Really? I find that hard to believe. I mean, I can understand a few inches in difference, but a one inch difference tends to have tuning overlaps. You can get most of the same sounds on a 22" and a 23", and the little low end that you can get out of a 23" that you can't out of a 22" is already available on a 24". But that's just me.

I think big Neil can do what he pleases...

[timmdrum]

Deltadrummer's version is a more detailed one that what I recall hearing, which is that the early 4-piece kits were either 12/14/20 or 13/16/22, so when they finally started configuring 5-piece kits, they just combined the rack toms they were already using. Seems I recall from somewhere that some companies also offered 6-piece kits with 12/13/14/16...?

[PQleyR]

It is true that it's harder to fit a 14 in, unless you've got a rack I suppose. I've just got a battered 80s ludwig kit with 10", 12", 13", 14", and 16" toms (plus a 26x16" kick!), and while I initially though 'ooh, perfect opportunity to have 2" gaps between toms!', I'm now wondering whether it would be easier to fit the 13" in than the 14" (I've got a sort of strange 2-up, 2-down setup with the top two on one stand, the 14" on another and then the 16's the floor tom). Would mean essentially having a 13" as a 'floor' tom. Who knows, might work! Then it would make getting heads slightly easier I suppose, although 14" heads are easy enough to find. Oh well, at least I have the option to experiment now! My old kit was a rock size Pearl Forum, so this is far more exciting.

[bobdadruma]

I use 12, 14 and 16 inch toms. I own a 13 and a 15, but I no longer use them. The 15 is hard to tune and I don't like the sound of the 13 in between my 12 and 16. I have noted that drum head packs don't come in the 12, 14 and 16 configuration. I don't know why that is. I agree that they should offer head packs in the 12, 14 and 16 inch sizes. Also drum case sets don't come in the 12, 14 and 16 inch sizes. Manufactures, If you read this thread please make notes.

[Deltadrummer]

Deltadrummer's version is a more detailed one that what I recall hearing, which is that the early 4-piece kits were either 12/14/20 or 13/16/22, so when they finally started configuring 5-piece kits, they just combined the rack toms they were already using. Seems I recall from somewhere that some companies also offered 6-piece kits with 12/13/14/16...?

That seems like a plausible explanation. It would be interesting to research when the first 14" were made, and more specifically the first 14 x14. The 14 x 14 tom is one of the nicest sounding drums to my ear. I would assume that the 16" tom was a portable version of the tympani. So you would have two little timpani. A lot of guys never used the second one or only rarely.

[bobdadruma]

That seems like a plausible explanation. It would be interesting to research when the first 14" were made, and more specifically the first 14 x14. The 14 x 14 tom is one of the nicest sounding drums to my ear. I would assume that the 16" tom was a portable version of the tympani. So you would have two little timpani. A lot of guys never used the second one or only rarely. Thats true DD. I have always noticed that drummers with 14 and 16 inch floor toms rarely use the 16 in. That is why I use a 14 inch rack tom instead of a 13. I still like my 16 inch floor tom a great deal but the 14 inch rack tom is my favorite. I don't like having two toms on the floor for some reason. Does anyone know why a 15 inch drum is so hard to tune?

[Mikecore]

I'm not sure about historical reasons, but the odd sizes might still persist partly because of the personal preferences of some (Peart also is a big fan of his 13" rack tom, and hasn't used a 14" tom in forever, just 15" floors), and as good "in between" sizes for setups that don't follow the traditional mold, like a 12, 15, 18" or a 10, 13, 16" (both 3" differences). It's also worth noting that Peart, as well as Steve Gadd, tend to follow a 13" with a 15" instead of a 14". This helps "gap" the sizes a little better and spread the natural tuning ranges a bit.

I agree with DMC. Make 1" increments and we can go from there as our hearts and wallets desire.

[Mikecore]

Does anyone know why a 15 inch drum is so hard to tune?

I think we might have some expectation of the drum's sound that doesn't match with the 15's natural range. I've never tried since nobody makes the damn things below their premium line. Many also complain about tuning a 13", but it's usually planted next to a 12", so naturally there will be trouble.

[Deltadrummer]

I think we might have some expectation of the drum's sound that doesn't match with the 15's natural range. I've never tried since nobody makes the damn things below their premium line. Many also complain about tuning a 13", but it's usually planted next to a 12", so naturally there will be trouble.


I agree. To my ear, the 15" is an in between tom between the mid range and the lower floor toms. And for that reason alone its "natural resonance" seems a bit odd. I don't know that this is the reason why is is difficult to tune; but it certainly wouldn't help any.

[bobdadruma]

Ken and Mikecore, I think that you are correct. I don't mind my thirteen inch drum so much even though I don't play it anymore. I have been trying to like my 15 inch drum on and off since 1974. I tried every type of head and muffler configuration on it and I never liked it. My 13 and 15 in drums have been packed away for years now. Its 12 14 and 16 for me. I am thinking of trading my 14 x 6 in snare for a 13 x4. I like the tone and response of a 13 in chrome snare.

[Mikecore]

Remember, Tama used to make 11" toms as well, so there was at least a wizened little shove towards odd sizes as a mainstream fetish/object. The main problem is that MOST drummers could give a rat's ass about the subtle nuances offered by odd drum sizes.

Consider this...
You already have some pre-conceived ideas about how a 10" tom SHOULD sound, as well as a 12" a 14" and so forth. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 22" bass drum in ANY drumshop, so THAT has become ubiquitous as well. Now...let's say you're a Bozzio drumdork like me, you are going to flout all of the conventional wisdom about what a drumkit should be, and have a go at it your own way (now we get to the root of MY drummer dogma). I'm trying to explore melodic textures using drums, so I go out and slap together a bunch of piccolo toms and make a diatonic scale of drums from "C" to the next lower "A". OK, they work, but the tones are garbage after I get beyond the mid ranges in either direction. The 7x8" that's pulling the low "A" is a bit too small to handle the note, but a 10" would be getting too "timbale-like" at that note. Likewise, the 3x8" handling the high "G" through "C" is making more of a "bongo-pop" than a smooth actual note, and even THAT little bastard wouldn't be able to pull that note without the six lugs that DW decided to put on the thing (personal experience; there's no way in hell you will get to those high notes with four lugs unless you are willing to RUIN your hoops, and even then, you are asking for trouble).

So, with 1" increment drums, I would be able to better dial in the tom notes I want for diatonic or even chromatic scales, without compromising the tone of the drums them selves. Yes, existing sizes could get the job done, but like Zappa said, 'Timbre rules", and there's no excuse for sacrificing good tone when the technology exists to solve this problem in some marginal way. The main reason this has not happened is (insert scary music) MARKETING.

The fact is, fruitcakes like me don't happen very often, so there just isn't the market for odd sized drums beyond what already exists, and even THAT is threatened by a lack of interest in these sizes. Unless we start getting more into specific notes and the desired tonality for each, we are probably stuck with the stupid sizes we have.

Thank God we have them, by the way. I would hate to enter that world of "This-or-that drumco. (LLC), will tell you what sizes you want---or else", but the time has come to reach deeper into the sound of a given drum, and see what music we can make, without an electric guitar in sight, and a wider range of drum configs will be neccessary to make this work.

[bilkay]

I have 10", 12", 13", 15", and 18" toms. Love 'em all.

[The Keith Moon]

I admit I am just a basement drummer, correct me if i am wrong, I dont think there is anything "stupid" in drumming (or in selecting sizes) other than playing in a fashion that hurts ourselves physically.

[Mr. Dyck]

I think everyone is WAY over thinking this. I've got odd and even sized drums, odd and even sized cymbals and with the drums I just tune them to what pleases my ear. You don't need to get all technical. I think it sucks all the fun out of being a drummer when you start making too much out of nothing. I agree with the fact that all sizes should be made easily available. Try them out in the store and if you don't like it don't buy it. Do what pleases you and don't make it needlessly complicated.

[kwolf68]

Mr Dyck hit the nail on the head. The great thing about music is there is no protocol that you HAVE to follow. Just grab what you like. I have (wasn't my choice) a 10, 12, 13 racks and a 16 floor. I don't use the floor much, because I don't like the jump from the 13 to the 16 (or the 12 to the 16). I'd rather have a 14 and then I could move out the 13. Skipping two inches does sound better, but it doesn't mean skipping one inch won't work.

I also would like to go with smaller toms than larger toms for two reasons...spacing/setup and the fact I believe you can tune a smaller head lower easier than you can tune a larger head higher. I don't know if that's just my experience or if it's common to all, but its what I've found and what works for me is what I should go with.

[bobdadruma]

Mr Dyck hit the nail on the head. The great thing about music is there is no protocol that you HAVE to follow. Just grab what you like. I have (wasn't my choice) a 10, 12, 13 racks and a 16 floor. I don't use the floor much, because I don't like the jump from the 13 to the 16 (or the 12 to the 16). I'd rather have a 14 and then I could move out the 13. Skipping two inches does sound better, but it doesn't mean skipping one inch won't work.


I also would like to go with smaller toms than larger toms for two reasons...spacing/setup and the fact I believe you can tune a smaller head lower easier than you can tune a larger head higher. I don't know if that's just my experience or if it's common to all, but its what I've found and what works for me is what I should go with.I actually tune my 14 inch drum slightly tighter than my 12 inch drum. The size of the 14 inch drum still makes it sound lower even though the head is tighter than the 12 inch drum. I tune the bottom heads to the same tension on each drum. I get better "Ring" and "Response" from the 14 inch when it's a bit tighter. There is an example that reinforces what was meant by Stupid Drum Sizes. When you bought your kit you weren't given the choice of a 14 in drum instead of a 13. The manufacturer told you what sizes you wanted.

[Zumba_Zumba]

I skimmed through most of these posts, but did all of you know that Tama made an 11" tom? It was in a late 80s early 90s product catalog. Dave Lombardo's kit had one (in the catalog, not sure if in real life). Pretty "odd".

I like the two different bass drum sizes in double bass set-ups.

[bojangleman]

They are not about to tell him no.

they told me no..

whats going on here...Neil is getting bigger than me?

Alex

[Trip McNealy]

I have two kits - a fusion-like setup with 10/12/14/16 and a "standard" 12/13/16.

The fusion is real easy to tune where I'd like and in intervals I like. The standard kit not so much and like others, that 13 has practically no use anymore.

HOWEVER, if I was using a 4-pc kit (and do so often), and a 12" tom was just a little underkill, I would go for something like 13x9 to pair with a 16x16 floor.

In addition, anything larger like 13x10 or 13x11 is too "power rock tom" for my tastes and certainly wouldn't be mounted alongside a 12".

[PQleyR]

Well, if we're talking about REALLY stupid drum sizes, I have to say that a 300" by 400" kick is just too big. I mean, it's just stupid.

[dkerwood]

what I don't like is how pretty much all batter head pre-packs are for kits that have two rack toms and one floor tom.

what about drummers like me that use a kit with only one rack tom and one floor tom? or drummers that use one rack tom and two floor toms?

it's like making us buy a head that we aren't going to use.

Or what about guys like me that play a 5 piece that's 10, 12, 16? That seems to be becoming a popular configuration, and my only options are to find a nice drum store that will let me swap a 13" head out of the pack for a 10"... or get a fusion pack and see if they'll swap the 14" for a 16". Luckily, I use coated Ambassadors, so I can usually find a use for the extra head on my 13" piccolo snare or one of my 14" snares.

I used to own an 80s Ludwig set with 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16" toms. Every few years, I'd get the idea that I could use them all... tuning was a NIGHTMARE! Not only was it hard to tune the individual toms differently enough to make an inpact, but when I'd cut back to a 5 piece, the 12 and 13 that would fit comfortably above my kick were tuned WAY too close together. I finally just gave it up and retired the 14 and 15.

[Mikecore]

Trip McNealy makes a good point. Sometimes there is a certain magic in a setup that only happens with those very specific sizes. My first kit was a 9x13, 16x16, 14x22, and the natural tendencies of those sizes yielded a very diverse range of tones with very few drums. Probably why Buddy described that config as a complete set of drums. Reading more of these posts now, I tend to think the smaller kits would benefit more from a wider range of sizes than larger ones would, like my first four piece or the fairly common jungle/jazz 10, 13 toms and 16/18" bass. Pairing toms too close in size to each other is pretty risky unless you are doing some kind of Billy Cobham/Terry Bozzio kind of thing. The natural tones are just too close for traditional rhythm-based drumming.

[MattRitter]

Check out this page from the DW website.

http://www.dwdrums.com/drums/drumchart.htm

It lists all of their available sizes, grouped in specific categories. They are calling the following toms "Standard Sizes":

8x8, 9x10, 10x12, 11x13, 12x14, 13x15, 14x16, 16x18

I'm confused. I actually have a few drums in some of the above sizes, and they sound very good, but "standard"? In what way are these sizes "standard"? Anyone know what they're basing this label on?

[randomhero243]

Check out this page from the DW website.

http://www.dwdrums.com/drums/drumchart.htm

It lists all of their available sizes, grouped in specific categories. They are calling the following toms "Standard Sizes":

8x8, 9x10, 10x12, 11x13, 12x14, 13x15, 14x16, 16x18

I'm confused. I actually have a few drums in some of the above sizes, and they sound very good, but "standard"? In what way are these sizes "standard"? Anyone know what they're basing this label on?

excluding the first 2. the rest have the pattern of the depth being 2 inches shorter than the diameter. s'all i got lol

[bobdadruma]

I used to own an 80s Ludwig set with 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16" toms. Every few years, I'd get the idea that I could use them all... tuning was a NIGHTMARE! Not only was it hard to tune the individual toms differently enough to make an inpact, but when I'd cut back to a 5 piece, the 12 and 13 that would fit comfortably above my kick were tuned WAY too close together. I finally just gave it up and retired the 14 and 15. My Gretsch kit from the mid Seventies came in the same sizes. That is why my 13 and 15 are in indefinite storage at the moment.

[dkerwood]

My Gretsch kit from the mid Seventies came in the same sizes. That is why my 13 and 15 are in indefinite storage at the moment.

I don't remember why I decided on the 13 rather than the 14. Maybe I could only find a decent 13" head, and that made the decision for me...

Or maybe I just found the "extra" two toms superfluous and just used the first two and the last one. Maybe I could only get the first double tom stand to work properly and abandoned the second set. Or maybe I did know what "standard" sizes were and went with that. I honestly don't recall.

[RogerLudwig]

Deltadrummer's version is a more detailed one that what I recall hearing, which is that the early 4-piece kits were either 12/14/20 or 13/16/22, so when they finally started configuring 5-piece kits, they just combined the rack toms they were already using. Seems I recall from somewhere that some companies also offered 6-piece kits with 12/13/14/16...?

I heard this story, but with a slight embelishment. I heard that Dave Clark, drummer of the Dave Clark Five, was one of the first rock drummers to mount two rack toms, and it was marketed by Rogers as the Dave Clark Londoner. This was the very first shell pre-pack ever sold with two rack toms mounted to the kick drum. The name was shortened to Londoner around 1966, when my old kit was made: a Rogers "Londoner" (see attached). The standard sizes to choose from were a 8 x 12 or 9 x 13 rack and a 14 x 14 or 16 x 16 floor, and it was Clark who picked the 12/13/16.

If you check out this video of the DC5, you will see that Clark sets his kit up as a 13/12/16...go figure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sehYnUVAcZM

When I bought this kit more than 35 years ago (used) I actually thought it was a 12/14/16 and when I went to buy new heads for the first time, I was blown away that the sizes were 12/13/16....this question has been perplexing drummers since at least 1973!

I sure would be interested to hear what the real story is. Otherwise, blame Dave Clark!

[Zumba_Zumba]

Absolutely beautiful set of rogers. Can't wait to fully restore mine.....a wood dyna sold for around 3200 last week on eBay; good news....

When I played jazz band in high school, I was lucky enough to play a red sparkle ludwig with TWO 12s, 14, 20. Came with vintage A Zildjians. I wonder if I can buy that set........I'll be right back.....

[mrchattr]

Check out this page from the DW website.

http://www.dwdrums.com/drums/drumchart.htm

It lists all of their available sizes, grouped in specific categories. They are calling the following toms "Standard Sizes":

8x8, 9x10, 10x12, 11x13, 12x14, 13x15, 14x16, 16x18

I'm confused. I actually have a few drums in some of the above sizes, and they sound very good, but "standard"? In what way are these sizes "standard"? Anyone know what they're basing this label on?

Yeah, the "standard" refers to the combination of depth/width. Generally, anything over 10" is "standard" when the drum is two inches shorter than it is wide. For smaller toms, in order to have the same type of sound as those larger toms, it is a one inch difference for a 10" tom, and no difference for an 8" tom. Most shell packs that you can buy, especially mass market ones, will have a combination of those drum sizes. It won't be all of them, obviously, but if you get a standard shell pack from most any company, if you get a 13" tom, it's going to be 11" deep. If you get a 14" tom, it'll be 12" deep, etc.

There are other terms, such as "box toms" meaning that the width and depth are the same (12x12, 14x14, etc.), "F.A.S.T. toms" which are shorter (I forget the details), etc.

[MattRitter]

Yeah, the "standard" refers to the combination of depth/width. Generally, anything over 10" is "standard" when the drum is two inches shorter than it is wide. For smaller toms, in order to have the same type of sound as those larger toms, it is a one inch difference for a 10" tom, and no difference for an 8" tom. Most shell packs that you can buy, especially mass market ones, will have a combination of those drum sizes. It won't be all of them, obviously, but if you get a standard shell pack from most any company, if you get a 13" tom, it's going to be 11" deep. If you get a 14" tom, it'll be 12" deep, etc.

There are other terms, such as "box toms" meaning that the width and depth are the same (12x12, 14x14, etc.), "F.A.S.T. toms" which are shorter (I forget the details), etc.

Interesting. I think the term "standard" is an odd choice considering that these sizes are not what most drummers think of as "standard." I think, for most drummers, "standard" sizes would include 8x12, 9x13, 14x14, 16x16, 14x22. I see that DW calls these sizes "traditional." I guess that works too.

[RogerLudwig]

Absolutely beautiful set of rogers. Can't wait to fully restore mine.....a wood dyna sold for around 3200 last week on eBay; good news....

When I played jazz band in high school, I was lucky enough to play a red sparkle ludwig with TWO 12s, 14, 20. Came with vintage A Zildjians. I wonder if I can buy that set........I'll be right back.....

Good new is right! The guy that bought my kit last May paid a whopping $7200 for the entire kit minus cymbals. I only saw $4700, 'cause he paid $1500 to have it shipped to Italy and another $1200 in custom duties and taxes.

His desire to get a Rogers kit made it possible for me to buy a custom ordered Ludwig maple 6-piece kit with an extra Supraphonic snare and a 7 Armand Zildjian cymbals... If you could only see the grin on my face when it sold on eBay. Which is interesting, 'cause I had Harry Cangany appraise the set before I sold it...he appraised it for $7500 with the cymbals. Then I sent the Cangany appraisal to Steve Maxwell and he had a chance to put in his two cents. ADVICE: Get Harry to appraise your Rogers kit before selling it; it only cost $20 for a letter appraisal

The kicker is that I paid $425 for the shells in 1973...and it was a fortune at the time.

The bigger kicker is when I asked my wife if I could sell my Rogers and use the money to buy a new set, she said "yes", because she couldn't imagine that a 45 year old drum set was worth more than $500. Lucky for me she stuck to her word.

[mrchattr]

Interesting. I think the term "standard" is an odd choice considering that these sizes are not what most drummers think of as "standard." I think, for most drummers, "standard" sizes would include 8x12, 9x13, 14x14, 16x16, 14x22. I see that DW calls these sizes "traditional." I guess that works too.

Yeah, people have been moving more and more away from the "box toms" for floor toms, so that's probably why they differentiate.

[gmrakich]

Fourteen racks were not popular because of the fourteen inch snare. People worried about sympathetic overtones etc.
If you don't like what they offer off the rack, so to speak, have a custom kit built to your specs.
I have never had an issue with 13 inch toms. High end drums with good heads have a wide tuning range.

[bobdadruma]

Fourteen racks were not popular because of the fourteen inch snare. People worried about sympathetic overtones etc.
If you don't like what they offer off the rack, so to speak, have a custom kit built to your specs.
I have never had an issue with 13 inch toms. High end drums with good heads have a wide tuning range.Oddly enough my 12" rack tom buzzes my 14" snare a great deal more that my 14" rack tom. I think that it is because I tune my 12" tom closer to the same tension as my snare. Also the 12" tom is closer in proximity to my snare.

[Mikecore]

In what way are these sizes "standard"? Anyone know what they're basing this label on?

When DW first started making drumkits in the early 80's, the "power" tom sizes were more or less becoming the standard for a lot of makers. Pearl had these as the only sizes you could get for the longest time until DW came out with "Fundamentally Accurate Sized Toms (F.A.S.T.)". The rest of the mass-market business followed suit offering these sizes as "alternative" or some such thing. The traditional sizes were a holdover from the Jazz era, hence the name.

Anyhoo, as a result of all this the "power" tom sizes, having been around for years, were relegated to "standard" sizes in DW's mind, since their F.A.S.T. sizes are a trademark name (even though just about everybody has gone to these sizes as their default standard).

[votard]

I've always found that the 13 in. tom sounds a lot more like a timpani than my other toms. And its an oddball as far as pitch on my drumset.

[Vipercussionist]

Open your minds, it's ALL good!!
try:

10, 13, 16, Compliments a 22 quite well.
3 inches between (medium)

or
10, 12, 14, Compliments a 20 quite well.
2 inches between (small)

or
12, 14, 16, Compliments a 22 or 24 quite well.
2 inches between (large)

or
10, 14, 18, Compliments a 24 or 26 quite well.
4 inches between (small to large)

Like I said, it's ALL good!! It's DRUMS!!

[Elvis]

why is that standard drum kit sized with 12 13 and 16 toms. to me it makes no sense. if a fusion set goes 10 12 14 why wouldn't they go 12 14 16. i cant stand that its a 13 and now that i have bought a 14in tom its a pain in the ass to buy new heads individually


any reason why they would a 13 instead of a 14 or is it just a weird pet peeve for me?
Play more, think less.

Honestly, why is this SUCH a concern of drummers?
I've played 12-13-16 kits for years and never thought it was "weird".
All the sizes work together fine, so what's "weird" about it?

Anyway, you did ask a question, so here's my.........hypothesis...

There was a time, when the "standard" drumkit had a 26" or 28" BD with a single 13" rack tom and one or two 16" floor toms (tenor drums set in their own stands, until after WWII).
After WWII, the smaller "NY" kits started becoming all the rage, with the popularization of "Be-Bop".
Swing, for which the larger kit was more fitting of, was still popular though, and during the 1950's the drum company's thought a "compromise" was worth putting out, so they took the "small" 22" BD from the swing kits (yes, it was the little one!) and combined them with the 13/16 tom setup, but then (to add some colour) added the 12" tom from the bop kits, along with the 14x5 snare drum (itself, coming from the orchestra, and being a sort of "middle ground" between the boppers 14x4 and the swingers 14x7) and....voila!, the NEW "Standard" kit came to be - the 22/12/13/16/14x5 arrangement.

So, there you go. History in a nutshell and probably completely wrong, but like I said, that's MY theory...now I'm sure 27 people will post afterwards telling me I'm full of crap, citing countless pieces of litrature, most of which can be linked to on the internet (because, if its on the net, its GOTTA be true.....right?)




Elvis

[Elvis]

Interesting. I think the term "standard" is an odd choice considering that these sizes are not what most drummers think of as "standard." I think, for most drummers, "standard" sizes would include 8x12, 9x13, 14x14, 16x16, 14x22. I see that DW calls these sizes "traditional." I guess that works too.
That's my old kit!
I had a 22/12/13/16/14x5 CB-700 kit back in the 80's. For a short time, I picked up a cheap little bop kit (Rogers Twister) that I'd use for jams and auditions (because 18/12/14 is MUCH easier to lug around).
Well, that kit was pretty rough and I remember I ended up leaving it in the practice room of an old Church that the street kids used to hang at....but I kep the 14" floor tom.
Around the same time, one of the tom arms stripped and couldn't be repaired, so I had a 22/12/13/14/16 kit, but treated it like two 4-piece setups - 22/12/14 and 22/13/16.
The smaller tom arrangement took over the role of the bop kit (its amazing how much easier those small toms made life!).
Those toms were 12x8 and 13x9, which was the only way you could get them back then...unless you wanted to get a "top end" kit, then you could get the ultra cool DEEP toms (12x10/13x11).
Personally, I like the shorter depths.
I called them "standard" depths for a while when I first got on the net, but I got so flamed for using that term, that I went to "traditional"....just to shut all those annoying little 12 year-olds up.
14" deep BD's, 12x8 and 13x9 are STANDARD depth's, as far as I'm concerned, though.




Elvis

[KarlCrafton]

I read an interview in one of my magazines, I think Drumhead, where Peart was touring the DW factory and asked if they could make him a 23 to see how it sounded. They are not about to tell him no.

Sure they could tell him no.
Make a weird, out of the norm drum with no head availability, just because he's "Neil Peart"?

I like NP a lot, but they could have said no, and he's not the only one selling DW kits.

BUT, since John Good is a maniac, no one had done a 23" drum, he could do it, and, with the relationship with Remo who said they'd make the heads it was probably a cool & interesting project.

If it didn't turn out, no biggie.

But it did turn out.

I played the 23, and it's a cool drum. Very comfortable, not as loose as a 24, and ballsier than a 22.
If people think it's stupid, then they wouldn't go for it anyway, but I for one don't like 22" bass drums, and if I needed a smaller kick, and I didn't want a 24, I'd get a 23.
I'd also buy a few spare heads along with the drum to avoid having to scramble getting a head should one break.


I think "standard" sizes become "standards" after people start buying those sizes and they become what the companies make the most of.

If people started buying the shorter drums, then those could be come "standard".

A 14x16 floor tom is becoming more common on shell packs in the last couple years, so that might become a "standard" size in the future.

A 14" deep bass drum was a "standard" size until the 16" deep came along, and no one bought the 14 anymore.
The 16 was a "power" drum, and now a lot of companies offer up to 20" deep.

Now, it seems like the 18x22 is the "standard" bass drum size.

When I started playing 12-13-16 was "standard", but face it, no one was tuning in 3rd's or anything like that, so it didn't matter.
Kit's probably came with a 13 originally, and when people started asking for 2 toms on the bass drum, they just threw up a 12" tom, didn't think anything of it, and then it just became "normal".

Not really until multiple toms, Octaplus kits, Hal Blaine with his fiberglass toms, & that stuff came out did anyone really think about "notes" and "tuning" on a kit.

Before that, it was "does it go boom and bap in time"? and, "is there any extra ring we need to duct tape out?"

[Elvis]

A 14" deep bass drum was a "standard" size until the 16" deep came along, and no one bought the 14 anymore.
The 16 was a "power" drum, and now a lot of companies offer up to 20" deep
I bet, if you correllated the depths of all of the BDs that are on all of the kits in the world, right now, I bet you'd find that there are still more 14" deep BDs out there than any other depth.
Why? Because most of those "generic" kits still come outfitted that way and at the prices they sell for, both new and used, they're far more affordable, and thus more numerous, than anything "nicer".
Simple mathematics, as it relates to simple economics. Fewer bucks to get the same thing..
...and 16" was a DEEP depth BD. It was never considered a "power" depth BD.
Power sizes were deeper.
AVH and BE played what would be considered "power depth" BDs, but we all called them "Cannons", back in the 80's.


Elvis

[KarlCrafton]

I bet, if you correllated the depths of all of the BDs that are on all of the kits in the world, right now, I bet you'd find that there are still more 14" deep BDs out there than any other depth.
Why? Because most of those "generic" kits still come outfitted that way and at the prices they sell for, both new and used, they're far more affordable, and thus more numerous, than anything "nicer".
Simple mathematics, as it relates to simple economics. Fewer bucks to get the same thing..
...and 16" was a DEEP depth BD. It was never considered a "power" depth BD.
Power sizes were deeper.
AVH and BE played what would be considered "power depth" BDs, but we all called them "Cannons", back in the 80's.


Elvis

Dude, you are so full of crap.....hahaha! (in keeping with post #49 hahahaha!)

There's probably more 14" bd's because they have been around forever, and still offered.
16, and now 18 have become extremely popular, and they are what are being sold in most shell packs these days. Ddrum even offers a couple lower end kits with 20" deep kicks.
I haven't seen anything with 14" kick (NOW, or for a few years) unless it was an extremely low end model. MOST are 18, but some still have 16 deep kicks.

Once the 16" deep bass drums started being sold/used by more people in the 80's than the 14, the companies just moved the lower end kits to have a 16" deep kick, so they were more attractive to people that couldn't afford a "real" (higher end) kit, or didn't want to spend the money on one.

That doesn't mean that people buying kits didn't still buy kicks with a 14" depth.
To a lot of people buying a kit, they could probably care less what the kick depth was if they just want a drum set, or are using it for a specific purpose, like a smaller Jazz kit.
You probably wouldn't want a 16 or 18" deep kick for that application......

Ludwig called their (3" deeper than standard) deeper shells POWER TOMS, maybe the BD's weren't listed as "Power", I'd have to dig out my catalogs to be sure.
I'll look, and I promise that if they were listed as Power, I won't rub it in :-)...and if they aren't, I'll say they weren't too how 'bout that?

Power toms from a lot of the companies were only 2" deeper than "traditional" sizes.
Didn't Tama offer the 3" longer depth as well? I know later they had the several depths on all toms in 1" increments, but I'm taking in the 80's-90's.

Yamaha had some of the first longer bass drums back in the mid 80's with the Turbo Tour kits, and the toms were square sized.

AVH's bass drums back when were two kicks connected, and were not available to the "general public" (how we wished eh?!?). Yes, they were cannons. I saw VH back then a few times. The Stainless Steel kit with the clear Octos is STILL one of my favorite kits...
Call me crazy, but I never cared as much for the B/W striped kit (but I did have the poster)....

Seems like by the time super deep one piece shells were "available", he went back to "regular" 16" depth kicks.
He did have the 20x22 chrome kicks that can be seen on the Right Here, Right Now DVD. From what I read (from a story by Todd Trent) he was offered 20x22 and 20x24 and he picked the 22.

I remember those first ads from Resurrection drums in FL. with the super long kicks back in the 80's. Even contacted them for prices on 2 24x24's, then decided on a different kit config (with a 28).
Eric Carr of Kiss used the real long kicks back in the 80's too..... he had a few cool looking kits.
All those shells were probably constructed by Keller, and, as I have been told by a couple Ludwig endorsers that the deepest Ludwig's molds could handle was 18" deep on kicks.
That may have changed in recent years, but I was told that (the depth) about 5-6 years ago.
I know that the 20" deep kicks Ludwig offer these days are made of the same wood as the CM, but they are constructed overseas.

BTW, I got AVH, but who is BE?

[Naigewron]

Not a fan of the 13" size either, but having 12" and 14" up front would just be far too combersome. 12, 14, 16 is great for a one up, two down setup, but for a two up, one down I prefer the 10, 12, 16 setup.

[joshisaces]

I hate 13" toms :(

[fusssion]

I've said it a million times on this site!

I'm very surprised that major mfg's don't offer DIFFERENT shell packs:

10-13-16-22 (two up one down

or (one up two down)

12-15-18-24 (or 22)

Ever heard a 3" increment kit ?!? It's 'ear porn' !! :)

[trkdrmr]

It's all a matter of time until the DW marketing machine spools up more sizes.

F.A.C.T. "Fundamentally Accurate Circumference Tuning"

12-1/4", 13-1/3" 14-3/4 16-7/8.

People will wonder how they ever managed survive with standard sizes.

"My 12-1/4" tom has the depth of a 13" tom, but the response of a 12!"

[Naigewron]

I've said it a million times on this site!

I'm very surprised that major mfg's don't offer DIFFERENT shell packs:

10-13-16-22 (two up one down

or (one up two down)

12-15-18-24 (or 22)

Ever heard a 3" increment kit ?!? It's 'ear porn' !! :)

A 3" increment kit might sound awseome, but even increments in diameter doesn't make mathematic sense either. A 2" increment between two smaller toms is percentage-wise a much larger increment than a 2" increment between two larger toms. A 12" tom has a 20% bigger diameter than a 10" tom, while an 18" tom has a 12% larger diameter than a 16" tom. In addition to this, an 18" drum has a 26% larger surface than a 16" tom, while a 12" tom has a 44% larger surface than a 10" tom.

Regardless of what affects the sound more, diameter or surface area (my guess is that surface area is what really matters), there's little actual sense in the even diameter increment, this means that for an "even" increment, you would need a small gap between the smaller toms and a bigger gap between the larger toms.

[kengolfnut]

I've said it a million times on this site!

I'm very surprised that major mfg's don't offer DIFFERENT shell packs:

10-13-16-22 (two up one down

or (one up two down)

12-15-18-24 (or 22)

Ever heard a 3" increment kit ?!? It's 'ear porn' !! :)

NO LIE...... It really is "ear porn".
I just set up my kit 10/12/15/18 w/ 22 bass (2up/2down)...... WOW!!!! Unbelievable!!! Sounds awesome..... I had an ear orgasm!!! HA HA HA!!!

[Skulmoski]

Could he (and by that I mean his tech) REALLY not get the sound he wanted from a 22" or 24" drum? Really? I find that hard to believe.

My thoughts exactly when I read the article. I think it is just an attempt to sell more drums.

GJS

[Elvis]

BTW, I got AVH, but who is BE?
BE = Blais Elias...used to play in a little band called SLAUGHTER.

Elias was noted for the usage of unusually deep bass drums. I believe they were 20-22 inches deep. INSANELY deep, for the time.
He used to be featured in a famous Ludwig ad which ran in Modern Drummer magazine for a number of years, showing Elias posing with his COW Ludwig kit and those trademark bass drums of his.


Elvis

[Mathew 7:21]

Fourteen racks were not popular because of the fourteen inch snare. People worried about sympathetic overtones etc.
If you don't like what they offer off the rack, so to speak, have a custom kit built to your specs.
I have never had an issue with 13 inch toms. High end drums with good heads have a wide tuning range.

I agree with you. Its kinda funny reading all these post. Im going to go ahead and say it....I dont and never have liked the 12 inch tom tom. I love 10s and 13s but never have met a 12inch I liked.

[Skulmoski]

Personally, I did not like the 126" x 40" bass drums. (Photo from Planet Drum, Mickey Hart) ;-)

GJS

[JSdrums]

The kicker is that I paid $425 for the shells in 1973...and it was a fortune at the time.

The bigger kicker is when I asked my wife if I could sell my Rogers and use the money to buy a new set, she said "yes", because she couldn't imagine that a 45 year old drum set was worth more than $500. Lucky for me she stuck to her word.

I acquired a '73 Rogers Londoner in Black Strata almost a year ago. I (and everyone who's heard them) absoultely love these drums! I use it mainly as a 12, 16, 22 configuration with a Gibraltar L-rod mounting the 12" since the Swivo mounts have cracks.

I'm curious as to why you got rid of them??? Mounting issues??

[Mathew 7:21]

Personally, I did not like the 126" x 40" bass drums. (Photo from Planet Drum, Mickey Hart) ;-)

GJS

Tommy Lee ripped this guy off.

[Skulmoski]

Tommy Lee ripped this guy off.

You know, I could see Tommy Lee doing something like this! Instead, he would be sitting above the bass drum with some sort of inverted bass pedal. With triggers and electronics, the sound of this big drum would not be an issue.

Tommy, are you reading this??

GJS

[BassDriver]

I like the two different bass drum sizes in double bass set-ups.
How would that be for your kit?

The set-up would be slightly awkward without a rack for toms...

...and I'm thinking would both of the feet have a different impact feel when you strike the kick drums? To me both feet should feel equal, but I understand the idea of two different sounds...has a throbbing effect with single stroke rolls, and different sounds with rudiments depending on which foot you lead with.

To me 20x18 and 20x20 kick drums seem more logical, depth is used to change the sound of the drum instead (kind of like octobans).

...and I have a 14x11 low tom (suspended actually) and you just tune it to the right pitch and you got a low tom sound, but it doesn't have as much rumble as a 14x14 but that rumble tends to put out quite a few frequencies that irritate me, just not my taste.

[BassDriver]

You know, what really irritates me are those power toms.

The major drum companies came about with power tom sizes in the 80s and claimed that they were louder because they were bigger, ridiculous, those Tama hyperdrive toms are freaking shallow and louder than power toms will ever be...I look in the tom angles thread and all those toms are huge, can't even set them up comfortably.

[Elvis]

How would that be for your kit?

The set-up would be slightly awkward without a rack for toms...

...and I'm thinking would both of the feet have a different impact feel when you strike the kick drums? To me both feet should feel equal, but I understand the idea of two different sounds...has a throbbing effect with single stroke rolls, and different sounds with rudiments depending on which foot you lead with.

To me 20x18 and 20x20 kick drums seem more logical, depth is used to change the sound of the drum instead (kind of like octobans).

...and I have a 14x11 low tom (suspended actually) and you just tune it to the right pitch and you got a low tom sound, but it doesn't have as much rumble as a 14x14 but that rumble tends to put out quite a few frequencies that irritate me, just not my taste.
I think you might want to vary the depth of your bass drums a little more drastically.
I'd say 20x14 and 20x20 would give more "difference effect" than what you proposed.
Of course, if you're looking for only a very slight difference, then that 18 and 20 inch deep setup would work fine.
...just saying.


Elvis

[Elvis]

Interesting. I think the term "standard" is an odd choice considering that these sizes are not what most drummers think of as "standard." I think, for most drummers, "standard" sizes would include 8x12, 9x13, 14x14, 16x16, 14x22. I see that DW calls these sizes "traditional." I guess that works too.
Matt,

You'd be surprised by how many people now think 22x16 (maybe even ...x18, these days) is "standard" and the old ...x14 measurement is just an older size.
...they'll fight you tooth and nail on that, too.
Personally, I consider the sizes you mentioned to be "standard" and still tend to refer to them that way, but I've been known to call them "traditional" sizes, too.
...and hey, 22/12/13/14/16/14x5 is my old kit! =)


Elvis