What would you change about a drum brand?

[trkdrmr]

I thought about how much I like some kits, but can't get past some features found on some kits. If I could, I'd change the following:

DW: Downsize the lugs, by about 1/2. They are (IMO) too huge

Pearl: Downsize the tom arms. Again, huge...Downsize the square rack, and make it with a smoother surface. (lower visual profile)

Ludwig: better double tom stands. They don't hold large toms well at all.

Tama: more finishes for bubinga drums (Including b/b), maybe an affordable wrap

Trick: offer machined pedal beater with more weight than the small beater they offer.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I love the look of Sonor drums and the lugs especially but the tom mounting hardware is even heavier looking, more massive than my Gretsch mounts.

[king fail]

Downsize the DW lugs?
I love them! they add so much character to the drums.

I think pearl should redesign their lugs, i just can't stand the look of them

And with every company that produces beginner kits; REDESIGN THE MOUNTING SYSTEM! it is simply impossible to comfortably position toms on a 22 12 13 16 rock entry level setup, I swear.

also as a general mounting thought for every company, bring the tom bracket closer to the batter head!

[trkdrmr]

I love the look of Sonor drums and the lugs especially but the tom mounting hardware is even heavier looking, more massive than my Gretsch mounts.

I LOL'd when I saw a demo of the designer tom mount. As functional as it is: it's a hunk o'metal. It's like a sailing mast on a kick drum.

The DW lugs: in addition to being too big for me visually, they take up so much space on the shell, they act like a series of wood clamps. Smaller lugs = more resonance.
I'd have the option to see who wanted smaller lugs. If they outsold the larger lugs significantly, I'd consider discontinuing the bigger lugs.

[rockinrider]

...Ludwig: better double tom stands. They don't hold large toms well at all. ...

It's interesting that Ludwig's heavy duty Modular tom mount was discontinued because folks thought they were too heavy. Go figure!

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w302/rockinrider_photos/Drums/toms_and_cymbals_front_flash.jpg


They hold my mounted '80s power toms just fine....

.

[trkdrmr]

It's interesting that Ludwig's heavy duty Modular tom mount was discontinued because folks thought they were too heavy. Go figure!

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w302/rockinrider_photos/Drums/toms_and_cymbals_front_flash.jpg


They hold my mounted '80s power toms just fine....

.

I understand the modular were discontinued originally due to cost (and the heavy complaints). Those...were perfect! They were indeed as solid as stands get. The crappy "elite" series has a weak clamp system for the l-rod ball. Any tom larger than 14" will easily slip on it's own. The stands are also unstable with a 13/14 or 14/16.

Heavy, I can handle. Drums slipping and falling over, I can't.
IIRC, you can buy new modular stands, provided you can use them.

[stasz]

Ditto on the DW lugs. I like everything about their drums minus those things. Half the time you can't even see the finish because of all the real estate they take up.

[Drummer Karl]

Honesty.

Too much marketing regarding some brands on the market. They sell drums even more expencive because it`s connected with a popular drummer or because it`s a so-called "special edition" with a blue wrap instead of a black one.

Other than that I think it`s hard for a brand to please every individual person with some options. Though I`d like to see some lines in the mid-class budget area to come with a small bass drum option (18" or even 16").

Karl

[2bsticks]

Not a big fan of the Yamaha nouveau lugs

[Guz2]

DW:Downsize the prices

[timmdrum]

I LOL'd when I saw a demo of the designer tom mount. As functional as it is: it's a hunk o'metal. It's like a sailing mast on a kick drum.

The DW lugs: in addition to being too big for me visually, they take up so much space on the shell, they act like a series of wood clamps. Smaller lugs = more resonance.
I'd have the option to see who wanted smaller lugs. If they outsold the larger lugs significantly, I'd consider discontinuing the bigger lugs.

I've posted in another thread here somewhere that I've seen Travis McNabb's (Better Than Ezra) DW kit, and it's outfitted with the smaller round lugs that are found on their tymp-toms. (I think that's what they're called.) The toms have the same style suspension mount, but with smaller black rubber rings surrounding the lugs. (Small tom is mounted on a snare stand, though...?)

[trkdrmr]

Honesty.

Too much marketing regarding some brands on the market. They sell drums even more expencive because it`s connected with a popular drummer or because it`s a so-called "special edition" with a blue wrap instead of a black one.

Other than that I think it`s hard for a brand to please every individual person with some options. Though I`d like to see some lines in the mid-class budget area to come with a small bass drum option (18" or even 16").

Karl

It hurt me to see the price of the anniversary Steve Gadd and Steve Smith kit. Hmm... a kit that neither actually played, kits that can be ordered normally anyway. Add a name plate and triple or quadruple the price. Ouch.

[trkdrmr]

I've posted in another thread here somewhere that I've seen Travis McNabb's (Better Than Ezra) DW kit, and it's outfitted with the smaller round lugs that are found on their tymp-toms. (I think that's what they're called.) The toms have the same style suspension mount, but with smaller black rubber rings surrounding the lugs. (Small tom is mounted on a snare stand, though...?)

That looks better! IMO, hardware should be like earrings: complimentary but not overbearing. Those smaller lugs are like my Trick lugs. You get to see more of the nice shell, and there is less weight/clamping force on the shell.

Much better than huge lugs.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

That looks better! IMO, hardware should be like earrings: complimentary but not overbearing. Those smaller lugs are like my Trick lugs. You get to see more of the nice shell, and there is less weight/clamping force on the shell.

Much better than huge lugs.
Another reason I like the Sonor Lugs. The small round tympani mallet type and the Gretsch New Classic type. Love 'em both.

[trkdrmr]

Another reason I like the Sonor Lugs. The small round tympani mallet type and the Gretsch New Classic type. Love 'em both.

I know you remember the big, "bold" look of the signatures back in the day. Those lugs were monsterous!

Then: heavy metal:
http://www.alfgrau.de/images/drums/snare_sonorsignature.jpg

But....

I know what sonor was thinking, and they achieved it. I'd like to hear a signature style shell (they are again available under SQ2/13 mm) with the new lugs and suspension mounts. I know they'd look better, and I'd bet they'd sing better as well. Sonor does a great job of continual improvement.

Now: very little contact:
http://www.sonor.com/temp_FE/PBAS29134/tmp5c254.jpg

[diosdude]

I thought about how much I like some kits, but can't get past some features found on some kits. If I could, I'd change the following:

DW: Downsize the lugs, by about 1/2. They are (IMO) too huge

Pearl: Downsize the tom arms. Again, huge...Downsize the square rack, and make it with a smoother surface. (lower visual profile)

Ludwig: better double tom stands. They don't hold large toms well at all.

Tama: more finishes for bubinga drums (Including b/b), maybe an affordable wrap

Trick: offer machined pedal beater with more weight than the small beater they offer.


DW, agreed, they're massive round lugs are just too much for this drummer.

Pearl: actually makes a smaller rack, the DR 80, sturdy as a rock much lighter than icon. My big regret is selling mine when i got the big ol' honkin icon monstrosity.

Ludwig/ Gretsch: modernize the hardware. To me it seems they've been 15 years behind the industry in a lot of hardware aspects. Redesign the damn speed king. My all time favorite pedal has finally been knocked off by the pro-1v detonator. Someone from ludwig needs to go and reverse engineer the trick pedal and copy it. Trick is using their compressed spring action. It's like the speed king and the axis pedal had a bastard child.

Tama: drop a certain endorsee who i personally can't stand (i won't name him, but he's got a signature bell brass snare-hehe)

Trick: put some weight behind those beaters! seriously! I took mine out and replaced them with some meaty DW 7002 beaters to get some power to go with the speed. I also e-mailed them with an idea to improve the detonator pedal: put an integral clip on the top of the footplate to attach that "L" shaped drum key that's crucial for adjustments. The PR guy emailed back with a kind of non-chaulant indifferent response.

[timmdrum]

Only thing that bugs me about the Sonor Artist snare above: they could cut the contact and the number of lugs & holes in half, plus show more of the gorgeous shell & finish, by using a double-sided lug. Sonor is great but those inverted pairs of single-sided lugs are overkill.

[georgeman]

I think they did that cuz it matches their logo, but I agree with you there it is kinda overbearing

[trkdrmr]

Only thing that bugs me about the Sonor Artist snare above: they could cut the contact and the number of lugs & holes in half, plus show more of the gorgeous shell & finish, by using a double-sided lug. Sonor is great but those inverted pairs of single-sided lugs are overkill.

1. I e-mailed trick, same deal. They are good guys. They are brilliant engineers. But they get highly upset if you suggest changes. It's gotta be a pride thing.

2. The sonor lugs bother me for the reason you mentioned, and IMO, those added portions aren't needed. Single contact point, and make that "extension" much smaller.

[aydee]

Yamaha is perfect just the way it is....( cough..)....almost.

Everyone thinks Yamaha has hardware is great too .Except me.( please don't tell anyone I said this )..

Given the expertise Yamaha has in machining metal parts ( music instrument divisions have total access to their motorcycle parts divisions ), there's no excuse that TAMA/ DWshould be the best hardware manufacturers in the biz.

[trkdrmr]

Yamaha is perfect just the way it is....( cough..)....almost.

Everyone thinks Yamaha has hardware is great too .Except me.( please don't tell anyone I said this )..

Given the expertise Yamaha has in machining metal parts ( music instrument divisions have total access to their motorcycle parts divisions ), there's no excuse that TAMA/ DWshould be the best hardware manufacturers in the biz.

I saw a comment about the nouveau lugs, but that's it. I mean what do you say about a company that produces a world-class product like the RC, and it's hardly changed at all in decades?

Yamaha's hex-hardware is tops (at least it's what pearl should be). The sound is tops. Finish and Quality are tops. Not even Sonor has taken all the refinements that yamaha has because they paid attention to the lugs and minimal shell contact years ago. YESS>TAR IMO.

I can't think of anything to change about yamaha. Except maybe offer the RC kits in more colors than just red or black.

[Ozzy Biz]

I would give the idiots at Pearl some moral fibre.... let them come up with their own ideas for once rather then ripping them of all the little guys.

[trkdrmr]

I would give the idiots at Pearl some moral fibre.... let them come up with their own ideas for once rather then ripping them of all the little guys.

The ripped off Rogers memriloc. They ripped off Tama for hardware. I'd say they are not the most original company.

[LeeLovesSabian]

How about adding their top of the line boom stands.
I wish Tama did everytime.

[Ironcobra]

I think Tama should redesign their website, it's much to flashy. DW should offer a wider variety of lug designs. Yamaha should rename the MCAN and BCAN to something shorter and catchier (wait, is there even a BCAN? or just a BCA?).

OCDP should drop the spike lug and the offset lug position. Noble & Cooley should drop their prices so I can buy a snare. Gretsch should make their Renown mounting system only stretch across 2-3 lugs, instead of almost all the way around the drum. GMS needs to drop that UGLY silver to blue sparkle fade.

[The Parasprinter]

Mapex should make a tom mount that fits their 24'' bass drums. And there should be non-custom 6'' toms out there that us poor people can afford.

[larryace]

Every hardware manufacturer should add an inch to each wing of any wingnut
Bass drum trees should be mounted closer to the batter head (Are you listening Pearl?)
Wingnuts on top of cymbal stands should be substituted with something faster to install/remove, that is as small as humanly possible
All lugs should lock around the tension rods somehow but without tools
All screws should be drumkey operated
All Lugs should be as small as possible
Drum head metal collars should come in black and other colors instead of unfinished aluminum they look bad with my black hardware
Drum makers badges should come in different colors to better match different finishes of drums. My DW gold badges don't really match my drums color
All snares units should be able to be tensioned like a Rogers Dynasonic
All drumshells should be machined with a groove on top that you could insert different bearing edge "rings" cut at different angles, and made of different materials (brass or aluminum for instance) for different sound choices from the same shell

[baz]

...have to disagree about the DW lugs.

I like them just the way they are. They may be big, but they are solid, and I have never had an issue with them. My drums sound just fine with all of that mass. If I wanted more resonance, I would have bought different drums.

My only complaint about DW is in regards to their hardware. I don't know if they use lock tite on their pedal screws, but the older DW stuff was way easier to change. Some of this newer stuff feels like it is welded together. I have changed from standard hinge to the delta bearing hinge on a few pedals and hi hat stands, but on others I have stripped screws because the damn things won't budge. Same with the set screws on the top spring swivel.

I am not a fan of their STM mounts either. With the exception of my Tiger ash kit, I have drilled and mounted the tom mount directly on to the shell for all of my rack toms. Gretsch, Slingerland, Ludwig, Rogers, etc mounted thgeir toms this way for decades, and it did not hurt their sound. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

Some things that I love about other drums include.

Pearl Masters bass drum spurs, and their Mahogany Masters kits.

Ludwig classic lugs and bass drum claws.

Yamaha wing screws and cymbal nuts.

Premier die cast hoops.

Tama rock star kits, or whatever they are called these days.

Fibes lugs.

Barry

[Man From The Past]

YAMAHA HAS MADE A KILLING OFF ME FOR THEIR DRUM ARMS!!!!!

The ball inside is made of some sort of plastic and the arms only last a few years. At $35 a pop I have replaced all four. Congrats to the exec's at Yamaha Drum Corp - you managed to drain another $140 out of me.

Other than that I love my drums (but this really pisses me off!!!).

jason

[aydee]

YAMAHA HAS MADE A KILLING OFF ME FOR THEIR DRUM ARMS!!!!!

The ball inside is made of some sort of plastic and the arms only last a few years. At $35 a pop I have replaced all four. Congrats to the exec's at Yamaha Drum Corp - you managed to drain another $140 out of me.

Other than that I love my drums (but this really pisses me off!!!).

jason

Aaaah! I'm not alone!

[intooder]

Aaaah! I'm not alone!
I've found this as well but it happened to the YD kit I own (bought it about 7 years ago) within the last year - so I'm not too unhappy.

As far as the nouveau lugs go, it's a trade-off between the convenience of quickly changing heads and occasional detuning (however I've gotten around this by switching some of them around).

[georgeman]

when the ball joints give out on me its time to bring in the welder and fix it for good, but then its not adjustable

[trkdrmr]

YAMAHA HAS MADE A KILLING OFF ME FOR THEIR DRUM ARMS!!!!!

The ball inside is made of some sort of plastic and the arms only last a few years. At $35 a pop I have replaced all four. Congrats to the exec's at Yamaha Drum Corp - you managed to drain another $140 out of me.

Other than that I love my drums (but this really pisses me off!!!).

jason

Ah ha! There is a quality weakness at Yamaha!!! Good point!

Funny, tama (ball) holders from the 70's still work fine....

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Quote....I mean what do you say about a company that produces a world-class product like the RC, and it's hardly changed at all in decades

Quote...Ludwig/ Gretsch: modernize the hardware. To me it seems they've been 15 years behind the industry in a lot of hardware aspects

Come on guys.. you can't have it both ways.

[trkdrmr]

Quote....I mean what do you say about a company that produces a world-class product like the RC, and it's hardly changed at all in decades

Quote...Ludwig/ Gretsch: modernize the hardware. To me it seems they've been 15 years behind the industry in a lot of hardware aspects

Come on guys.. you can't have it both ways.

HMM.. IIRC (and that's hard to do before coffee) My point about the RC was that since introduction, they found a formula that works. Where the industry is changing shells, woods, paint etc... the Rc's have had little change. They have improved the suspension system since the early years, but they have not gone nuts and made as many variations in shells like other companies fighting the never ending wood-wars.

Modern or old style appearance is fine with me, so long as it works and holds the stuff in place.

I don't want gretsch to go berserk and start looking space-age.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Well Taken..................Roger

[metal overlord]

Sonor, Yamaha, Tama (B/B) & Pearl have to make AVAILABLE virgin bass drums on their higher end kits. I cannot stand the look of them mounted kits. And im not spending an extra $1000 on a "custom made" kit where all they do is not put on a mount, which techically should be less money.

[trkdrmr]

Sonor, Yamaha, Tama (B/B) & Pearl have to make AVAILABLE virgin bass drums on their higher end kits. I cannot stand the look of them mounted kits. And im not spending an extra $1000 on a "custom made" kit where all they do is not put on a mount, which techically should be less money.

That falls right into place with DW's huge lugs. One of the facets that drum companies like to tout is resonance. It makes no sense to me to say that, and add pounds of hardware and holes onto a kick drum and not offer something hardware-free.

Not to mention some people dislike kick mounts for cosmetic reasons.

[dkerwood]

How's this for small lugs?
http://www.gmsdrums.com/img/jpg/lugsse.jpg

All drum adjustments (and drum accessories) should be adjustable with a drum key. I shouldn't have to carry screwdrivers and wrenches in my stick bag.

Everyone should take cues from Yamaha and offer beginner-level drum kits with hardware compatible, if not on par, with their pro-level kits.

Pearl- your tube tom mounts are ugly.

Mapex- many of your finishes look like novelties, and as such, come across as cheesy and cheap, which is a shame on such a high quality kit.

Ludwig- Everything you do looks bulky and old-fashioned. Some may like it, but I don't. Modernize. Also, you'd think the biggest drum company in the world could put out a quality entry-level drumkit.

Yamaha- "New" lugs are rather ugly, especially with a lighter finish shell.

Tama- The 80's called; they want their lugs back.

GMS- Seriously. Do people BUY all of the finishes that you offer? Come on.

Pacific- You're not DW, no matter how much you try to be them. You'll never be more than the "cheap" version.

DW- You're great, but I'm not sure you're all you're cracked up to be. I've heard gross sounding DWs, and Pearl Exports that sound as good as the best DWs. So what makes you worth the extra thousand bucks?

Ddrum- Marketing an entire drum series to a specific genre of music? How silly. Oh, wait. That's Tama's philosophy, too.

OCDP- Unless you make your kits out of pure gold and liquid awesome, you're not worth it. It's wood and plastic bits that you hit with wooden bits. Get off the high horse.

Sonor- Hum. Well, I've never actually SEEN a Sonor believe it or not. So I guess I'd have them add some more dealers.

Gretsch- Hardware designs are pretty hokey, not to mention bulky. Not very hip. Also, the suspension mounts are too bouncy for my taste, IIRC.

[trkdrmr]

How's this for small lugs?
http://www.gmsdrums.com/img/jpg/lugsse.jpg



Those are utilitarian looking, but I like them better than DW's. They are as big as lug needs to get.

The Ayotte lugs have a rounded version along those lines, which I like better than DW's.

I better quite saying DW before I am accused of bashing those fine drums. ;)

[Der Februar]

DW- You're great, but I'm not sure you're all you're cracked up to be. I've heard gross sounding DWs, and Pearl Exports that sound as good as the best DWs. So what makes you worth the extra thousand bucks?

What about heads, tuning, sticks, room acoustics, PLAYER?

[dkerwood]

What about heads, tuning, sticks, room acoustics, PLAYER?

Exactly my point. I posit that the only reason DWs generally sound better than, say, a Pearl Export is that the player on the DW GENERALLY has been playing longer and thus is more willing to make the larger investment. This more experienced player will generally have a better idea of the sound he wants and how to achieve that sound. His expensive kit will also generally be surrounded by high end accessories (how many D-Dubs do you see surrounded by B8Pro cymbals?), which serve to further enhance the sound.

I know a DW player who changes his batter heads once a month, and his resos almost as often. Of COURSE his set will sound better than the guy who's been beating on the same heads for 3 years, regardless of the make of the shells.

DW drums sound different, no question, but I'm not convinced that they're worth the extra ca$h... which is why I play GMS instead.

[trkdrmr]

Exactly my point. I posit that the only reason DWs generally sound better than, say, a Pearl Export is that the player on the DW GENERALLY has been playing longer and thus is more willing to make the larger investment. This more experienced player will generally have a better idea of the sound he wants and how to achieve that sound. His expensive kit will also generally be surrounded by high end accessories (how many D-Dubs do you see surrounded by B8Pro cymbals?), which serve to further enhance the sound.

I know a DW player who changes his batter heads once a month, and his resos almost as often. Of COURSE his set will sound better than the guy who's been beating on the same heads for 3 years, regardless of the make of the shells.

DW drums sound different, no question, but I'm not convinced that they're worth the extra ca$h... which is why I play GMS instead.

I like GMS lugs better, and those white ash drums.

[Vipercussionist]

I thought about how much I like some kits, but can't get past some features found on some kits. If I could, I'd change the following:

DW: Downsize the lugs, by about 1/2. They are (IMO) too huge

Pearl: Downsize the tom arms. Again, huge...Downsize the square rack, and make it with a smoother surface. (lower visual profile)

Ludwig: better double tom stands. They don't hold large toms well at all.

Tama: more finishes for bubinga drums (Including b/b), maybe an affordable wrap

Trick: offer machined pedal beater with more weight than the small beater they offer.

Ludwig: PERMANENT wraps, like they did in the 1970's, ever try to remove black cortex from the 1970's?? Yeah, it should be THAT well glued!! When I buy a kit I want it to STAY together and not have to be re-wrapped because the wrap fell off or split. That's BUSH league man!! That stuff is WAY too expensive for the wrap to fall off in a few years.

Check the attachment~ made in 1999, they should last 30 years before a HINT of the wrap having a problem shows up!!!! HACKERS!!

Damn shame!!
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

[baz]

Ludwig: PERMANENT wraps, like they did in the 1970's, ever try to remove black cortex from the 1970's?? Yeah, it should be THAT well glued!! When I buy a kit I want it to STAY together and not have to be re-wrapped because the wrap fell off or split. That's BUSH league man!! That stuff is WAY too expensive for the wrap to fall off in a few years.

Check the attachment~ made in 1999, they should last 30 years before a HINT of the wrap having a problem shows up!!!! HACKERS!!

Damn shame!!
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

...OUCH!!!

What happened to your tom ? Was that shrinkage or some other type of road rash ?

Barry

[LeeLovesSabian]

How about upgrading the stock heads?
They never give you the top-of-the-line drum heads.

[dkerwood]

How about upgrading the stock heads?
They never give you the top-of-the-line drum heads.

The school where I teach just bought a Pearl Vision kit. I was impressed at how good the stock heads were. Clear pinstripe-esque batter heads, great kick heads with muffling, and everything tunes up very well.

I've also been pretty impressed with DW's stock heads.

[Drummer Karl]

It hurt me to see the price of the anniversary Steve Gadd and Steve Smith kit. Hmm... a kit that neither actually played, kits that can be ordered normally anyway. Add a name plate and triple or quadruple the price. Ouch.

Yep, exactly. It made a perfect climax for me when they released all those new signature kits. The prices are so high even though those kits don`t really differ in material...more in cosmetics.

Karl

[trkdrmr]

Ludwig: PERMANENT wraps, like they did in the 1970's, ever try to remove black cortex from the 1970's?? Yeah, it should be THAT well glued!! When I buy a kit I want it to STAY together and not have to be re-wrapped because the wrap fell off or split. That's BUSH league man!! That stuff is WAY too expensive for the wrap to fall off in a few years.

Check the attachment~ made in 1999, they should last 30 years before a HINT of the wrap having a problem shows up!!!! HACKERS!!

Damn shame!!
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

=O 30 years! One of those cost cutting/time saving methods are to ttach the wrap at one point with hi-bond tape. Easy to remove, but not nearly the durability.

Ludwig's process was so bad at one point in the 80's, the wrap had rivits!!!

I see wraps from the 50's and 60's intact all the time. Yellowed a bit maybe...

[Der Februar]

Exactly my point.
Oh, I see your point. What does GMS stand for? I don't know much about the different brands.

[Ozzy Biz]

Oh, what a suprise... some of my comments got deleted.

For the record, they were that Pearl are the dodgiest guys in the business who make a living on stealing ideas from the small guys. Golden Ratio concept? Stolen. Putting a patent in for the stave method of construction? Dodgy as.

[trkdrmr]

Oh, what a suprise... some of my comments got deleted.

For the record, they were that Pearl are the dodgiest guys in the business who make a living on stealing ideas from the small guys. Golden Ratio concept? Stolen. Putting a patent in for the stave method of construction? Dodgy as.

MY friend (who still has a small drum shop) had the first year (76?) Rogers kit with memriloc. It was *obviously* different from any existing hardware. According to him, they failed to patent it. Pearl had a very similar system not long afterwards.

Maybe I can't use the "S" word, perhaps "Borrow/inspired the concept via lateral examination of pre-existing corporate product" would be more correct. I saw your original post and even though it was removed, I agreed with what you said.

[Ozzy Biz]

Said patent: http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7446250.html

It's so ridiculous that a company that's relatively young (compared to Ludwig, Gretsch, etc) has the balls to pay to have a patent put through on arguably the oldest method of manufacturing drums.

[trkdrmr]

Said patent: http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7446250.html

It's so ridiculous that a company that's relatively young (compared to Ludwig, Gretsch, etc) has the balls to pay to have a patent put through on arguably the oldest method of manufacturing drums.

That's insane!

Not to mention, I have never seen a stave pearl drum. Didn't know they ever made any.

[Ozzy Biz]

That's insane!

Not to mention, I have never seen a stave pearl drum. Didn't know they ever made any.

They don't make any. They rebadge the drums made by a small european company, whose product doesn't appear anywhere near the quality of most small/boutique builders like Unix, Metro, Brady, and JTP (plus a heap of others). They don't seem to be all that well made; not even lathed on the inside.

[Vipercussionist]

...OUCH!!!

What happened to your tom ? Was that shrinkage or some other type of road rash ?

BarryThat's not a tom, that's a 14x26 inch kick drum the wrap shrunk so bad that it pulled itself apart. The 18inch floor tom's wrap fell off completely after removing the lugs, just fell off the shell like it wasn't ever part of the drum.

Needless to say I was NOT impressed!!

=O 30 years! One of those cost cutting/time saving methods are to ttach the wrap at one point with hi-bond tape. Easy to remove, but not nearly the durability.

Ludwig's process was so bad at one point in the 80's, the wrap had rivits!!!

I see wraps from the 50's and 60's intact all the time. Yellowed a bit maybe...That wrap WAS fully glued, not taped, the shell was still slightly tacky, but not NEARLY enough to hold the wrap in place.

And as for the RIVETS?? I have a Rivet kit, that wrap is as nice as the day it was bought, practically INDESTRUCTIBLE!! and they sound GREAT!!!
And my 1960's kits, they have stayed together MORE than the 30 years I mentioned and look great and sound great too!!
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

[trkdrmr]

That wrap WAS fully glued, not taped, the shell was still slightly tacky, but not NEARLY enough to hold the wrap in place.

And as for the RIVETS?? I have a Rivet kit, that wrap is as nice as the day it was bought, practically INDESTRUCTIBLE!! and they sound GREAT!!!
And my 1960's kits, they have stayed together MORE than the 30 years I mentioned and look great and sound great too!!


I am glad the rivits didn't turn out to be a bad thing. I have read a lot of jabs at Ludwig for doing that.

[timmdrum]

Tama- The 80's called; they want their lugs back.

Ddrum- Marketing an entire drum series to a specific genre of music? How silly. Oh, wait. That's Tama's philosophy, too.

What's 80's about the Starclassic lugs? And Tama doesn't strictly market to hard rock & metal. OCDP does. (or at least every endorser I've ever seen in any ad is rock/metal/punk.)

[dkerwood]

What's 80's about the Starclassic lugs? And Tama doesn't strictly market to hard rock & metal. OCDP does. (or at least every endorser I've ever seen in any ad is rock/metal/punk.)

Ok, so the Starclassics are gorgeous. I'll give you that (and I love my SC snare)... but every set lower than that has and has had the same lugs that scream "hair metal" to me every time I see them.

I don't see a lot of jazzers or pop players endorsing or even PLAYING Tama. IME, if I see Tama drums, it's due to one of two reasons:

1) The drummer is a metalhead or a hard rocker, and eventually wants a huge double bass kit with power toms and gong drums and at least 14 chinas stacked around the set...

2) The drummer doesn't have much money and is playing on a Tama kit FROM the 80's. Usually accompanied by B8 and ZXT cymbals and with a big blanket jammed in the bass drum. :-)

[Vipercussionist]

I am glad the rivits didn't turn out to be a bad thing. I have read a lot of jabs at Ludwig for doing that.The rivets most certainly LOOK stupid, but they do the job that's the bottom line. Ludwig's 6 ply maple shells were heavy, but they sound great, I'm saying thet from first hand experience.
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

[timmdrum]

Ok, so the Starclassics are gorgeous. I'll give you that (and I love my SC snare)... but every set lower than that has and has had the same lugs that scream "hair metal" to me every time I see them.

if you're referring to the long double-sided lugs, yeah, I hate those too. They only have them on the Superstar series. (And the now GC-exclusive Rockstar series.)

I don't see a lot of jazzers or pop players endorsing or even PLAYING Tama. IME, if I see Tama drums, it's due to one of two reasons:

1) The drummer is a metalhead or a hard rocker, and eventually wants a huge double bass kit with power toms and gong drums and at least 14 chinas stacked around the set...

A quick rundown of about half of Tama's artist list included these guys- some rock, yeah, but not the kind of meathead rock you're referring to:

John Blackwell
Kenny Arnoff
Bill Bruford
Ronald Bruner Jr.
Stewart Copeland
Alan Evans
Brian Frasier-Moore
Rodney Holmes
Barrett Martin (check him out!)

And there were also a lot of names that I didn't recognize, but were playing with r&b/jazz artists. Yes, the majority of Tama's roster is hard rock, metal, & punk. Same with most companies, and OCDP still dominate this trend.

2) The drummer doesn't have much money and is playing on a Tama kit FROM the 80's. Usually accompanied by B8 and ZXT cymbals and with a big blanket jammed in the bass drum. :-)

DW & Pearl do the same thing. We all know their name artists aren't playing the low end stuff, they do it to sell kits.

[dkerwood]

A quick rundown of about half of Tama's artist list included these guys- some rock, yeah, but not the kind of meathead rock you're referring to:

John Blackwell
Kenny Arnoff
Bill Bruford
Ronald Bruner Jr.
Stewart Copeland
Alan Evans
Brian Frasier-Moore
Rodney Holmes
Barrett Martin (check him out!)

And there were also a lot of names that I didn't recognize, but were playing with r&b/jazz artists. Yes, the majority of Tama's roster is hard rock, metal, & punk. Same with most companies, and OCDP still dominate this trend.

But in the real world, I've never seen a jazz player with a Tama kit. Of course, they could play jazz on a Tama kit, much in the same way you COULD play jazz guitar on a flying v. I submit that marketing causes this. And yes, OCDP does market in a similar way, but they put out a fraction of the number of sets Tama produces, and for a much shorter timeframe.


DW & Pearl do the same thing. We all know their name artists aren't playing the low end stuff, they do it to sell kits.

First of all, there's no such thing as a "low end" DW kit. Everything they sell is marketed to the pro.

All I meant by my quoted comment was that Pearl and Yamaha seem to have better representation by quality musicians across genres and levels. I see a lot of second and third tier touring bands playing on (and sounding great with) mid-level Pearl and Yammie sets. Lots of Exports and Stage Customs out there. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't see a lot of Rockstars come through, even though they're a fine kit.

[timmdrum]

But in the real world, I've never seen a jazz player with a Tama kit. Of course, they could play jazz on a Tama kit, much in the same way you COULD play jazz guitar on a flying v. I submit that marketing causes this. And yes, OCDP does market in a similar way, but they put out a fraction of the number of sets Tama produces, and for a much shorter timeframe.

There are some jazz artists listed in their roster, but no one whose name I recognized instantly, so I didn't list them. Tama's gear is just as suited for jazz as anyone else's, so it's not like playing jazz guitar on a V. Playing jazz on Portnoy's kit, maybe yeah, haha! They just don't have as many jazz artists as endorsers. (Bruford's the only one I'm aware of unless I'm looking at their list.)


First of all, there's no such thing as a "low end" DW kit. Everything they sell is marketed to the pro.

All I meant by my quoted comment was that Pearl and Yamaha seem to have better representation by quality musicians across genres and levels. I see a lot of second and third tier touring bands playing on (and sounding great with) mid-level Pearl and Yammie sets. Lots of Exports and Stage Customs out there. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't see a lot of Rockstars come through, even though they're a fine kit.

Yes, DW does, it's the Pacific line, and just like Pearl, they put a bunch of (mostly punk & metal) DW endorsers in ads for the Pacific stuff. Lame marketing. I used to see as many Rockstar drums on stages as Exports & SC's, but since they've been discontinued (except at GC), not so much anymore. And I agree that Pearl & Yamaha's artist roster seems more diverse that Tama's.

[dkerwood]

There are some jazz artists listed in their roster, but no one whose name I recognized instantly, so I didn't list them. Tama's gear is just as suited for jazz as anyone else's, so it's not like playing jazz guitar on a V. Playing jazz on Portnoy's kit, maybe yeah, haha! They just don't have as many jazz artists as endorsers. (Bruford's the only one I'm aware of unless I'm looking at their list.)

You can play jazz guitar on a V. Heck, I knew a college professor who played fantastic jazz guitar on a 7 string Schecter. Looked a little odd, but sounded great. With the exception of the SC, Tamas just look a little too hardcore for jazz, but they could still certainly be used.


Yes, DW does, it's the Pacific line, and just like Pearl, they put a bunch of (mostly punk & metal) DW endorsers in ads for the Pacific stuff. Lame marketing. I used to see as many Rockstar drums on stages as Exports & SC's, but since they've been discontinued (except at GC), not so much anymore. And I agree that Pearl & Yamaha's artist roster seems more diverse that Tama's.

I don't count Pacific to be the same thing as a Pearl Forum. There are still high end Pacific kits in addition to their entry kits. The DW brand only goes on pro quality gear.

[caddywumpus]

I'm waiting for someone to mention;

Spaun
Ayotte
Unix

[drummerchick435]

Mapex: More hardware options. racks especially. make apparel! cheap advertisement if you ask me.

Zildjian: quit the ZBT line. just quit it. horrible cymbals.

Pearl: company is way too big. quality not quantity.

[secondXheartbeat]

I would like to see more packaged kits with 20" bass drums.


Also, Yamaha's slight variation of the Pearl rack system doesn't warrant doubling the price.

[805Drummer]

Mapex: More hardware options. racks especially. make apparel! cheap advertisement if you ask me.

Zildjian: quit the ZBT line. just quit it. horrible cymbals.

Pearl: company is way too big. quality not quantity.

I don't necessarily think that Zildjian should QUIT the ZBT line, but I do think they should revamp it. I'm no expert on how a cymbal's shape affects it's sound, but the ZBTs seem to be basically just sheets of metal that make a cymbal-like sound. The PST 3s, for the same price, are still cheap-sounding cymbals, but they have a slightly more complex sound, because the undersides of the cymbals are hammered in various patterns. In an ideal world, everyone's starter cymbals would be PST 3s, because I've tried the B8s and the ZBTs and they are the plainest cymbals you could imagine. Plus, Sabian and Zildjian should pick up on the whole "cymbal coating" thing so they don't get fingerprints, like Paiste does.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

PST 3's are brass. PST 5's are B8 bronze. I know which I'd prefer...

[805Drummer]

PST 3's are brass. PST 5's are B8 bronze. I know which I'd prefer...

I wasn't talking about the PST 5's, or the ZXTs, or the B8 Pros. Those are all midrange, one step up, a bit more expensive. But the PST 3s are for people just starting out, who want the cheapest cymbals possible. Unfortunately, most people go with B8s and ZBTs.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I wasn't talking about the PST 5's, or the ZXTs, or the B8 Pros. Those are all midrange, one step up, a bit more expensive. But the PST 3s are for people just starting out, who want the cheapest cymbals possible. Unfortunately, most people go with B8s and ZBTs.

PST5's are the equivalent of B8's. The Paiste equivalent of B8 Pros and ZXT's/ZHT's (arguably) are the Alpha series and they're good, nay great, midrange cymbals. PST3'd are actually more comparable to Planet Z and Sabian Solar - the 'sub beginner' market as it were. Of those, the PST3's win outright, no question, but the PST5's ARE the Paiste equivalent of B8's and ZBT's.

[805Drummer]

PST5's are the equivalent of B8's. The Paiste equivalent of B8 Pros and ZXT's/ZHT's (arguably) are the Alpha series and they're good, nay great, midrange cymbals. PST3'd are actually more comparable to Planet Z and Sabian Solar - the 'sub beginner' market as it were. Of those, the PST3's win outright, no question, but the PST5's ARE the Paiste equivalent of B8's and ZBT's.

What? No they aren't. If the PST 3s are the equivalent of the B8s and ZBTs, then what about the Paiste 101s and 201s? THOSE are the equivalent of Planet Zs and Solars.

[drumguyfromWI]

How about upgrading the stock heads?
They never give you the top-of-the-line drum heads.

my new Gretsch Catalina Club Mod 4-piece shell pack came with coated Evans G1's on the snare and tom batters, and came with pre-muffled bass drum heads.

I'm normally a Remo guy, but I'm not complaining. Yeah, Evans aren't my favorite brand of head, but it's a heck of a lot better than getting the crappy stock heads that you get with most drums. my drums actually sound pretty good, and I didn't even have to go out and buy new heads right away.

anyway, my changes for Sabian:

Combine the B8 line with the B8 Pro line and just call it B8 (seriously, what the difference between the two lines besides B8 Pro's cost a tiny bit more and have a brilliant finish?), and start making APX's out of the B20 Xs20 alloy, then combine the APX line into the Xs20 line and just call it Xs20. (why anyone would buy APX cymbals that are B8 bronze when they could get Xs20 cymbals that are B20 bronze for about the same price is beyond me.)

that way there's three levels of cymbals: entry-level (B8), intermediate-level (Xs20), and pro-level (AA, AAX, HH, HHX, and Vault/Signature/Paragon).

also, drop the Solar line altogether. I wouldn't wish brass cymbals upon anyone.

[805Drummer]

also, drop the Solar line altogether. I wouldn't wish brass cymbals upon anyone.

Except for people who can't afford B8s.

[drumguyfromWI]

Except for people who can't afford B8s.

nope, not even those people.

the only people who usually would buy brass cymbals are people who are just getting into drumming. the brass cymbals come with entry-level kits. but my opinion is, entry-level drumsets, if they're going to come with cymbals at all, should come with B8 bronze cymbals instead of brass. sure, it would probably make the price of entry-level kits go up a bit, but in the long run, the customers are going to be happier because the cymbals will actually sound like cymbals and be a bit more durable. most people are willing to pay a little more for something that is a quality product and will last.

if you're at all serious about really getting into drumming, you usually just end up replacing the brass cymbals with bronze cymbals almost immediately anyway. having bronze cymbals from the get-go would save people more of their precious time and money.

so attention all drumset manufacturers: if you're going to give people cymbals with their entry-level kits, either give them B8 bronze cymbals or no cymbals at all. brass cymbals are almost worthless.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

What? No they aren't. If the PST 3s are the equivalent of the B8s and ZBTs, then what about the Paiste 101s and 201s? THOSE are the equivalent of Planet Zs and Solars.

Yes they are. That's why the PST3's are brass and the PST5's are B8 bronze. The 101 and 201 series use a different hammering and lathing method to the PST5's, so essentially Paiste have three sub-lines. Do your research and you'd know this. The PST5's are priced to compete with ZBT's and B8's - at least they are over here. The Alpha series competes with the ZXT/ZHT (and has been around longer) and arguably competes with the B8 Pro line from Sabian. The 101's and 201's compete with the Solars and Planet Z's ALONG WITH the PST3's. The PST5's are Paiste's entry-level B8 bronze cymbals.

[DrewTheShoe]

What? No they aren't. If the PST 3s are the equivalent of the B8s and ZBTs, then what about the Paiste 101s and 201s? THOSE are the equivalent of Planet Zs and Solars.

Yes they are. That's why the PST3's are brass and the PST5's are B8 bronze. The 101 and 201 series use a different hammering and lathing method to the PST5's, so essentially Paiste have three sub-lines. Do your research and you'd know this. The PST5's are priced to compete with ZBT's and B8's - at least they are over here. The Alpha series competes with the ZXT/ZHT (and has been around longer) and arguably competes with the B8 Pro line from Sabian. The 101's and 201's compete with the Solars and Planet Z's ALONG WITH the PST3's. The PST5's are Paiste's entry-level B8 bronze cymbals.

Gotta agree with MFB on this one. 101's, 201's, and PST3's are all brass. While they are different, I really would like to see much of a significant quality difference in all brass cymbals. That said, the PST5's being B8 makes them the competition for B8s and ZBT's. No way a brass cymbal can stand up to bronze, even if it isn't the best quality.

[Mikecore]

Make smaller bass drums available for lower end lines. A floor tom lying about on its side does not a bass drum make. I'm talking 16's and 18's here.

Learn that there is nothing wrong with 6, 13, 15 and 18" toms. Nothing. EVER!

Pearl: read the above.

DW: Bring back the mini-lug for Collectors/Jazz/Classics Series drums; 6" toms. Not "tube toms" or "ratatoullie" drums or whatever. 5x6" toms.

Gretsch/Sonor: Five lugs on 10 and 12" toms? Really? Also, I might be willing to look into the Renowns if I thought I could get something more than just a four or five-piece kit.

Pacific: Tube lugs=FAIL; expand the birch lines, they actually sound pretty good.

Ludwig: I stopped paying attention to you when I couldn't afford anything you make. Bye.

OCDP: Don't insult me with this whole Newport/Avalon stuff. Y'know, "Here's an OCDP kit, now quit bugging us for affordable drums." Even DW did better with PDP at the outset.

Tama: Lose the long lugs. You should know better.

Yamaha: A little less depth on the toms.

Sabian: What happened to the other ten sizes of cup chimes and bell discs when the RADIAs got axed?

Remo: You're going to have to work very hard to make a better bass drum head than the EMAD.

Evans: Your EMAD collar keeps splitting on me. I think they are too brittle and can't take the vibration after a fashion. Also, EMADs for 16" bass drums.

[dkerwood]

Combine the B8 line with the B8 Pro line and just call it B8 (seriously, what the difference between the two lines besides B8 Pro's cost a tiny bit more and have a brilliant finish?).

Seriously? You can't tell the difference between B8 and B8 Pro? Man, for me, it's the difference between "dull and lifeless" and "bare minimum requirements as an instrument". In fact, there are some B8 Pro hats and rides that have sounded brighter and more responsive to me than some MUCH more expensive pies. Are they GREAT cymbals? No, they're cymbals that have an acceptable sound. But the B8s? Dead. Clangy. They sound "like" cymbals, but are not REALLY cymbals.

A lot of schools I work with have to use B8 or B8Pro because of their limited budgets. I get to hear all sorts of variants of the two lines in all levels of dirtiness, age, and disarray... and the Pros seem to outshine the B8s every single time.

[kgrubb]

Gotta agree with MFB on this one. 101's, 201's, and PST3's are all brass. While they are different, I really would like to see much of a significant quality difference in all brass cymbals. That said, the PST5's being B8 makes them the competition for B8s and ZBT's. No way a brass cymbal can stand up to bronze, even if it isn't the best quality.
Actually the 201's are B8 bronze.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Actually the 201's are B8 bronze.

Are they? Even so, they function as a sub-line. I have a suspicion Paiste may very well remove them from their product line as doubling up in a market is inefficient. They're not old stock left over from the previous numbering system, are they?

[DrewTheShoe]

Actually the 201's are B8 bronze.

Oh jeez, they are aren't they?
Hm. Should've done my homework. Sorry about that, I've never really been able to get much into Paiste... ):

[805Drummer]

Actually the 201's are B8 bronze.

Is CuSn8 the same thing as B8? Because it says it's CuSn8 on Paiste's website:

http://www.paiste.com/e/cymbalsoverv.php?family=13&action=family&menuid=292

Gotta agree with MFB on this one. 101's, 201's, and PST3's are all brass. While they are different, I really would like to see much of a significant quality difference in all brass cymbals. That said, the PST5's being B8 makes them the competition for B8s and ZBT's. No way a brass cymbal can stand up to bronze, even if it isn't the best quality.

Wow, I never realized this. Thanks for the enlightenment. If the ZXTs/ZHTs are competition to the Alphas, does that mean that they are all pro cymbals?

And also, if Alphas are pro, then does Paiste even HAVE any intermediate lines? I always thought that's what the PST 5s were for.

Oh jeez, they are aren't they?
Hm. Should've done my homework. Sorry about that, I've never really been able to get much into Paiste... ):

[LM201]

Is CuSn8 the same thing as B8? Because it says it's CuSn8 on Paiste's website:


They say it's different than the conventional B8 alloy, but I don't think there's much magic behind it.

[RogerLudwig]

Sn is the symbol for tin and Cu is the symbol for copper on the periodic table of elements; CuSn8 is bronze with 8% tin. So the short answer is that B8 bronze would appear to be the same as CuSn8, since bronze is an alloy of copper/tin..

[wy yung]

I would like Ludwig to update their snare action. The thing is old fashioned and unreliable.

I would like DW to improve quality control, especially in the bearing edge and paint departments. To my mind these areas are exceedingly poor and well below the industry standard.

I would like Yamaha to improve the interior finish on their Musashi snare line. I would also recommend that Yamaha places more care in quality control and avoids problems such as odd angle snare actions on high end expensive drums.

I look forward to Brady drums improving now that Chris is back at the helm. I had many issues with Brady while he was away. Now I await to see.

That's about it.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Is CuSn8 the same thing as B8? Because it says it's CuSn8 on Paiste's website:

http://www.paiste.com/e/cymbalsoverv.php?family=13&action=family&menuid=292



Wow, I never realized this. Thanks for the enlightenment. If the ZXTs/ZHTs are competition to the Alphas, does that mean that they are all pro cymbals?

And also, if Alphas are pro, then does Paiste even HAVE any intermediate lines? I always thought that's what the PST 5s were for.

No. Alphas are intermediate. Paiste are a bit different in that most of their cymbals are made from B8 alloy, the 2oo2 line (pro level), Alphas (intermediate), PST5's (beginner) and 201's (so it transpires (sub-beginner)) are all made from the same alloy.

ZXT's and ZHT's are the Alpha series' direct competition, but the Alphas are often used as professional cymbals, such is their quality. They are actually incredibly good cymbals in their own right - so some people don't feel the need to pay more for the more expensive equivalent, the 2oo2.

[DrewTheShoe]

Is CuSn8 the same thing as B8? Because it says it's CuSn8 on Paiste's website:

http://www.paiste.com/e/cymbalsoverv.php?family=13&action=family&menuid=292



Wow, I never realized this. Thanks for the enlightenment. If the ZXTs/ZHTs are competition to the Alphas, does that mean that they are all pro cymbals?

And also, if Alphas are pro, then does Paiste even HAVE any intermediate lines? I always thought that's what the PST 5s were for.

Alright, this has gone WAAAY off topic. Let's end it now.

201 - B8, but still not very great. No direct competition.
PST3 - Brass, what do you expect.
PST5 - B8, actually has some work done on it. Competes with B8/ZBT
Alpha - B8, but very well made. Competes with ZHT, but still used by pros because of quality.

And 805, don't get all sarcastic and [excuse me] bitchy on me. Honestly, your sarcasm is not funny, condescending, and immature. Plus, don't be a hypocrite, mocking me when you too are ignorant of the facts.
Now APPARENTLY, I just learned that PST 3s are BRASS CYMBALS

[RogerLudwig]

I would like Ludwig to update their snare action. The thing is old fashioned and unreliable.

I would like DW to improve quality control, especially in the bearing edge and paint departments. To my mind these areas are exceedingly poor and well below the industry standard.

I would like Yamaha to improve the interior finish on their Musashi snare line. I would also recommend that Yamaha places more care in quality control and avoids problems such as odd angle snare actions on high end expensive drums.

I look forward to Brady drums improving now that Chris is back at the helm. I had many issues with Brady while he was away. Now I await to see.

That's about it.

Check out the Millenium P-86 strainer from Ludwig. When paired with the P-33 butt plate it is a vast improvement over the P-85 throw off. And it has the same hole placement as the P-85, so your old one can easily be replaced.

[805Drummer]

Alright, this has gone WAAAY off topic. Let's end it now.

201 - B8, but still not very great. No direct competition.
PST3 - Brass, what do you expect.
PST5 - B8, actually has some work done on it. Competes with B8/ZBT
Alpha - B8, but very well made. Competes with ZHT, but still used by pros because of quality.

And 805, don't get all sarcastic and [excuse me] bitchy on me. Honestly, your sarcasm is not funny, condescending, and immature. Plus, don't be a hypocrite, mocking me when you too are ignorant of the facts.

None of my posts on this thread contain any hint of implied or obvious sarcasm. I learned a lot, and I was thanking you for it, because I didn't realize what these cymbal lines were made from.

[LM201]

If a cymbal is yellow... it's brass

[drumguyfromWI]

Remo: You're going to have to work very hard to make a better bass drum head than the EMAD.

um... ever heard of the Remo PowerSonic?
http://www.americanmusical.com/ProductImages/Large/41125.jpg

amazing drumhead. just as good as, if not better than, the Evans EMAD.


also, all this talk of cymbals gave me some ideas for Paiste and Meinl:

lower your prices on your professional-quality cymbals, and simplify your selection of products! you're confusing me!

for example, Paiste: I see no good reason why you need to have both the 2002 series AND the Giant Beat series! Just combine them!

at least with Sabian and Zildjian the basic pro-quality cymbal lines are easy to follow. You have the AA and A Zildjian traditional bright, the Hand Hammered and K Zildjian traditional dark, the AAX and A Custom modern bright, and the HHX and K Custom modern dark.

then they both have their various entry-level lines, and Sabian has the Vault/Signature/Paragon line, but the basic 4 cymbal lines for both companies are easy to follow. And, with the exception of a few models in the Sabian Vault/Signature line, all of Sabian's and Zildjian's pro-quality cymbals are B20 bronze alloy.

but Paiste and Meinl are all over the place, with different alloys and different, often overlapping cymbal lines. And, their cymbals (at least here in the USA) cost a substantial amount more than Zildjians and Sabians.

[zambizzi]

From my experiences so far:

Ludwig - GREAT sounding shells but poor quality control. Strainers and other hardware is not so great. Both of my brand new kits had flaws on the edges (albeit minor). The wraps could have been more durable. Quit using crappy Weathermaster heads and pick a big-brand like other builders have.

Pearl - Make those Masters MCX shells just a ply or two thinner and you're as close to perfection as you can get!

DW - Get real with your prices...they're just drums (apply this to Sonor and other mega-bucks drum makers)

Yamaha - Quit drilling big holes into the bass drums and holes into toms for the YESS mounts. Get with the times!

Vic Firth - Be consistent...signature models change over time making it very hard to pick just one stick and stay with it.

All stick-makers - Offer sticks of all models with non-slip surfaces like VF signature models have.

Remo - White coated heads have improved but could *still* be much more durable.

[805Drummer]

um... ever heard of the Remo PowerSonic?
http://www.americanmusical.com/ProductImages/Large/41125.jpg

but Paiste and Meinl are all over the place, with different alloys and different, often overlapping cymbal lines. And, their cymbals (at least here in the USA) cost a substantial amount more than Zildjians and Sabians.

Google "Jack's Music Store." For some reason, their prices are much cheaper than any other major retailer of Paiste cymbals. I've had Guitar Center price match there at least twice.

[LM201]

Google "Jack's Music Store." For some reason, their prices are much cheaper than any other major retailer of Paiste cymbals. I've had Guitar Center price match there at least twice.

The prices are lower at Massmusic.net and the guys who run it are real friendly. You get free shipping too.

[Mikecore]

um... ever heard of the Remo PowerSonic?
*snip*

amazing drumhead. just as good as, if not better than, the Evans EMAD.

Yes, I've heard of it and tried it. Even though I was a lifelong Remo die hard, so I was already biased towards the Remo, I was not as impressed with the sound difference as I was with EMAD. Just personal preference I suppose, much like this here thread.=)

[Pass.of.E.r.a.]

How 'bout tama's prices come down say......alot.

(sorry if this was already posted, i hope you'll understand i didnt feel like reading 96 friggen posts.....)

-Jonathan

[LM201]

How 'bout tama's prices come down say......alot.

(sorry if this was already posted, i hope you'll understand i didnt feel like reading 96 friggen posts.....)

-Jonathan

You could always become friends with the employees at your favorite mom and pop store. That way you can get huge discounts

[DrewTheShoe]

um... ever heard of the Remo PowerSonic?
http://www.americanmusical.com/ProductImages/Large/41125.jpg

amazing drumhead. just as good as, if not better than, the Evans EMAD.


I really would love to try that one. Some say it's great, others [most, in fact... sorry DG :( ] say it's terrible. I think I'd like an experience with it, see how it is...

[G123]

The era is here where nearly everything low-to-mid level in overseas manufactured shell packs can be made with suspended toms and, thus, virgin kick drums. I can't think of any feature which may improve overall sound of drumshells than this. I hope all major manufacturers jump on board. Once they are tooled for this, all drummers will benefit. Yeah, I know, set up for gigging is more of a pain, but, I think worth the payoff in sound.

[bobdadruma]

The era is here where nearly everything low-to-mid level in overseas manufactured shell packs can be made with suspended toms and, thus, virgin kick drums. I can't think of any feature which may improve overall sound of drumshells than this. I hope all major manufacturers jump on board. Once they are tooled for this, all drummers will benefit. Yeah, I know, set up for gigging is more of a pain, but, I think worth the payoff in sound.I have sampled virgin kicks and suspended tom mounts and I have to admit that I can hear a slight difference. I can't justify the trade off that exists in setting them up to justify buying a kit with these features. I mount everything to my bass drum. My toms and my crash cymbals are all mounted to my bass with custom hardware that I designed. I mike my bass and my toms anyway. When I EQ the mikes it doesn't matter. It is so easy to set up and move if I have to with this mounting system. I simply pull the whole bass drum and my cymbals and my toms all follow. I tried rack systems and I couldn't stand them either. I guess that I like things the old fashioned way.

[drumguyfromWI]

The era is here where nearly everything low-to-mid level in overseas manufactured shell packs can be made with suspended toms and, thus, virgin kick drums. I can't think of any feature which may improve overall sound of drumshells than this. I hope all major manufacturers jump on board. Once they are tooled for this, all drummers will benefit. Yeah, I know, set up for gigging is more of a pain, but, I think worth the payoff in sound.

I love virgin kicks too! My new Gretsch Catalina Club Mod 4-piece shell pack has a suspended tom and a virgin kick. They sound great, and I actually like suspended toms better, as I feel that it gives you more options for tom placement instead of being stuck to the kick drum.

but I don't agree that it makes setup and tear down more of a pain, well, maybe a little bit, but it's not so bad for me as I only have a 4-piece kit and only have to worry about one suspended tom.


the next step for manufacturers would be to have air suspention feet on their floor tom legs, like most Pearl kits do.

[Celereon]

To those talking about the EMAD vs the Powersonic, I still think the EMAD beats the powersonic by a mile. There were two bass drums set up in my local drum store, one Pearl Export, and one very old Pearl Sessions. Same size. One had a relatively old EMAD, and one had what I would guess to be a relatively new Powersonic (this was barely a couple of months after they came out).

Unless the difference between a Export and a Sessions is so great, I guess it had to be the tuning and the heads themselves. The EMAD was DEEP and when you hit it (it was up against a wall) it just blew you away. Eq'd type sound, as if through a woofer. Powersonic...sounded flat and dead. Like what I'd imagine a Hydraulic to sound like. Pap...pap...pap...

So my vote goes to the EMAD.

And to whoever was talking about the cymbal coatings, yes I do agree. Sabian brilliant cymbals in particular, I think are the biggest culprit. Fingerprints everywhere...and I'm completely obsessed about keeping my cymbals clean. Gloves, cloths, and a drumstick thrown around at whoever comes up and starts spinning my cymbals on their stands...

But really I guess I'm pretty content with what's on the market today. And actually, I'd have to say that I'm GLAD that some companies offer less than par drumkits. It makes MY CHOICE EASIER! Too many kits to consider otherwise :p.
Celereon.

[dkerwood]

I have sampled virgin kicks and suspended tom mounts and I have to admit that I can hear a slight difference. I can't justify the trade off that exists in setting them up to justify buying a kit with these features. I mount everything to my bass drum. My toms and my crash cymbals are all mounted to my bass with custom hardware that I designed. I mike my bass and my toms anyway. When I EQ the mikes it doesn't matter. It is so easy to set up and move if I have to with this mounting system. I simply pull the whole bass drum and my cymbals and my toms all follow. I tried rack systems and I couldn't stand them either. I guess that I like things the old fashioned way.

I think the sound difference is huge. In fact, I've never owned a kick with mounted toms because I like the virgin kick sound so much.

As far as more "complicated" setup, I disagree. I have a cymbal mounted on each of my two tom stands, so I'm not really bringing any more stands than normal. If you break the set all the way down for cases, you still have to set up the bass drum mount and the two mounted toms. I just put together a tom stand with the cymbal boom and mount the toms.

Of course, I also completely detest toms mounted on bass drums. I can never get them into the positions I want...

[Mikecore]

I think DW should use the Pacific/Workshop oval lugs across the board. They are much more elegant than the porkpie hats that they use currently.

[trkdrmr]

I guess my preferences boil down to common sense things that have been mentioned. Good solid hardware. Small or moderate lugs. Well made shells. Finishes that don't look like a paint store exploded.

Of course I say this while watching the Police synchronicity dvd. There is Stewart Copeland on his nice blue 1980's Tama imperialstars (not even the high end drums of the day) and they sound great.

Most drum companies offer most features I am after and some changes are nit picking preference.

But I still think they'd reap performance benefit from changes in many cases.

[tard]

Start making the Peavey Radial pro again..

[timmdrum]

I really dug those Peavey drums. I can see why they failed in the market, though- funny lookin', heavy, and expensive. But, they sounded great.

I wish someone would incorporate the Arbiter system on a regular drum shell again; one that wouldn't be as fragile as wood, since I think that's the reason only the Flats survive... Maybe one of the synthetic shell companies? Trick? Tempus? Anyone? I'm not so sure about the DTS thing...

[tard]

i bought mine new and they were priced in the upper middle compaired to the other high end maple kits available at the time, and from what i understand Steven Volpp is in talks with another company and may be re releasing them under another name.