Time keepers or creative drummers [Archive] - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

rockitman

12-14-2008, 04:35 PM

The Keith Moon,

The time keeping on the Rolling Stones and AC DC records are pretty creative in thier own respect. Keeping in mind that the phrasing of these simple rhythms are not likely to be duplicated without some work. Staying in the pocket is usually the hardest thing for many young drummers. That being said, there is alot that can be learned from these recordings.

If your looking for creativity, I would point you in the direction of Gavin Harrison or Vinnie Coulaiuta, Tony Williams and Jo Jo Mayer come to mind as well. But really. Are you going to actually try to comp these guys, or just steal an idea or two. If you're a novice drummer and are looking for ways to keep your playing fresh the PAS 40 is a wonderful resource.

The Keith Moon

12-14-2008, 07:04 PM

The Keith Moon,

The time keeping on the Rolling Stones and AC DC records are pretty creative in thier own respect. Keeping in mind that the phrasing of these simple rhythms are not likely to be duplicated without some work. .

honestly I find it very easy to play along the stones/AC/dc records and find it hard to copy Nicko McBrain or Keith Moon.

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 01:25 AM

You do have a strange way of looking at music & drumming, Mr. Moon.

Would you really prefer that Nicko McBrain play Honky Tonk Women over Charlie Watts?

By creative drummers if you mean guys who can do drumming gymnastics and have chops coming out of their ears, look up the drummerworld list of drummers/videos/sound samples.

In my honest opinion, Time keeping can be done by a machine or a phantom drummer. Its all about how creative you can get around with that time keeping , go out or in of that time keeping line every now and then, frequently, and come back to that time keeping, along with the vocals and Bass and guitar. Steady snare beats is all I could hear in 95% of the rock songs. How came no one comes up with some kind of a double steady snare beats or some kind of steady snare and tom tom beats or such??
I am just thinking out of the box. I know most of the drum teachers may get furious but honestly this is just a thought from a guy who gets bored with the same old steady snare beats. I think Keith moon was one of the folks who came out of that rut.

Jojo Mayer and folks like him in the drummerworld videos are playing solos!
I want to hear some one who plays like they are playing solos , along with the MUSIC!
If you listen to the first Five songs in "Piece of Mind- Iron Maiden" you know what I am talkng about. Nicko doesnt seem to sit still!!

(You folks may dis agree, this is how I think, "If my drumming can be duplicated by a drum machine, I dont think I have a future in drumming", they can fire me and buy a drum machine!.-- I am talking about Hard Rock, Hard Rock is not all about guitars licks but with frequent drum chops as well )

geeza

12-15-2008, 02:29 AM

jonescrusher

12-15-2008, 03:00 AM

I want to hear some one who plays like they are playing solos , along with the MUSIC!

God help us all if you go into record producing.....

larryace

12-15-2008, 03:09 AM

The thing you don't mention about "just keeping time" is making the time "feel" good and groove, an important nuance. I hear you though. The stages I went through with blues were similar, at first I thought it was "boring". I just didn't "get it" After many unsuccessful attempts at making it "not boring" I realized that the steady pulse was the only thing that really moves this music along, and then I embraced it. There is plenty of room to get creative with a "boring" beat, by using dynamics, build ups, great changes from intros/verses/choruses/bridges/leads/tags/hooks etc. Restraint can be very teasing. It's not what you play so much as how you play it. Playing lead drums doesn't work most of the time. (Keith Moon excepted). But don't listen to us, follow your natural instincts, and do what you think is best, there's room for all.

Deathmetalconga

12-15-2008, 03:44 AM

I know plenty of drummers with lots of chops who get fired from gigs because of their attitude towards "simple boring drummers". I always play for the song and no matter how simple it seems, i drive that damn song with nothing but true passion and attitude. It maybe boring to you , but no ones ever accused me of looking bored when i'm pounding four on the floor. Give me a triangle or a tamborine and i'll work that damn thing.

Drummers are at the bottom of the musicians' pecking order. If everyone above says to play simply and have no chops or fills, then if you want to have a job, that's how you'll play.

If you look at the few drummers who have had their own bands, they call the shots and play the drums in a very flashy fashion, which is what I prefer as well. I have never cared much for drummers who play very simply. If I drummer is free to play with a lot of flash, it says something not only about their technical abilities, but also about their status as a musician in the group.

aydee

12-15-2008, 05:48 AM

In my honest opinion, Time keeping can be done by a machine or a phantom drummer.... this is just a thought from a guy who gets bored with the same old steady snare beats.

...I want to hear some one who plays like they are playing solos , along with the MUSIC!

I understand what you are saying, even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

By the way, drum machines can also create a lot of chops 'artificially'. Not a problem for drum machines... Is that something you might enjoy?

I think what you are saying is you want to hear a drummer play more notes than just a straight- up 4/4 rock beat? But what is a straight up 4/4 rock beat? Bonham, Paice, Watts, Densmore? Lars? Baker? That's a whole world within itself, right there.

Doesn't the music, song, tune dictate what EVERYBODY plays? The space each musician takes? Not just the drummer..

What about the chops that you feel but don't hear? The best kind of chops,imo...

What about those musical moments when the chop was there for the taking but the drummer chose not to play it, or just play part of it? The beauty and power of suggestion?... do you really want to hear 32nd note triplets flying all over the kit, again & again & again?

That is AS boring to me as a straight 4/4.

You are letting the tail wag the dog, my friend. Don't listen to the musician, listen to the music.

...................

geeza

12-15-2008, 06:10 AM

I understand what you are saying, even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

By the way, drum machines can also create a lot of chops 'artificially'. Not a problem for drum machines... Is that something you might enjoy?

I think what you are saying is you want to hear a drummer play more notes than just a straight- up 4/4 rock beat? But what is a straight up 4/4 rock beat? Bonham, Paice, Watts, Densmore? Lars? Baker? That's a whole world within itself, right there.

Doesn't the music, song, tune dictate what EVERYBODY plays? The space each musician takes? Not just the drummer..

What about the chops that you feel but don't hear? The best kind of chops,imo...

What about those musical moments when the chop was there for the taking but the drummer chose not to play it, or just play part of it? The beauty and power of suggestion?... do you really want to hear 32nd note triplets flying all over the kit, again & again & again?

That is AS boring to me as a straight 4/4.

You are letting the tail wag the dog, my friend. Don't listen to the musician, listen to the music.

...................You are absolutely right my friend.

geeza

12-15-2008, 06:15 AM

Drummers are at the bottom of the musicians' pecking order. If everyone above says to play simply and have no chops or fills, then if you want to have a job, that's how you'll play.

If you look at the few drummers who have had their own bands, they call the shots and play the drums in a very flashy fashion, which is what I prefer as well. I have never cared much for drummers who play very simply. If I drummer is free to play with a lot of flash, it says something not only about their technical abilities, but also about their status musician in the group.So what you're saying is ,if i play simple then i have no real status as a musician. Hmmm? can you teach me some blast beats to play along with my Tom Petty records.

DrummerDavid

12-15-2008, 07:48 AM

I have respect for all drummers who either play live..and/or were able to record. Pro..amature...ETC.

Whether they be some one like Neil oe someone like Charlie...If they play for the music, then they are good drummers in my book.

But, for some reasone-The only drummer I can't stand is Rikki Rocket.

For some reason.. I really don't know..I thinks it's his feel...

VedranS

12-15-2008, 08:14 AM

Here are some drummers that come to mind who complex or dense rhythms as parts to their songs and (to me) make them feel like they belong there:
Danny Carey of Tool
Gavin Harrison of Porcupine Tree
Bill Bruford of King Crimson
Thomas Pridgen with The Mars Volta (yeah, it's a chops-fest, but so's what the rest of the band is playing...)
Mike Portnoy (again, it fits 'cause it's all chops all around)
Carter Beauford with Dave Mathews Band

That's pretty much all rock stuff, but if technical/complex/busy drumming is your thing, maybe you should check out some fusion for guys like Billy Cobham, Dave Weckl or Tony Williams... All great players who can play just about anything, including "steady boring snare beats". Or you could go and listen to some jazz music, while the drumming isn't (hopefully) a chops fest outside a solo context, you'll probably have a hard time finding too many "steady snare beats" unless it's Art Blakey :)

Or how about you listen to some Indian Tabla music, crazy technical complex beats, and not a snare to be heard ;-P

jjmason777

12-15-2008, 08:43 AM

But, for some reasone-The only drummer I can't stand is Rikki Rocket.

For some reason.. I really don't know..I thinks it's his feel...

That's funny, I actually think Rikki does a good job at what he does. But then again, the only drummer I can't stand is Keith Moon!

Daphfz

12-15-2008, 03:04 PM

Listen to some songs by Nirvana, their drummer kept time, but also let creativity show in some of his fills/grooves and such. :)

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 03:44 PM

at least I feel I have two folks who kind of agree with me and give encouragement, Thanks DeathmetalConga and Larryace.

I just want to be hated by drum teachers (Its not a sin) and regular drummers, thats all..... I mean Keith Moon made it though.

(Almost all drummers except Keith Moon seems the same to me)

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 03:47 PM

... do you really want to hear 32nd note triplets flying all over the kit, again & again & again?

...................

there you go... I may be one of the few who just made this a style! and got out of that steady 4/4 rut!

Please dont mis understand me, I dont want 10,000 tom toms either (Who tunes them, for gods sake!). All I want is one tom Tom and one floor tom and great cymbals(at least 6), again I dont want the spot light on me either. All I want is , when folks here the song, they should say, the drumming is different or the drumming stands out of all other regular 4/4 style.

I am kind of proud of the way Vinnie Appice did during the song Heaven and Hell Live, classic chops during the Iommi lead., however he had 100001 tom toms which was tuned by his drum technician)

rockitman

12-15-2008, 04:36 PM

honestly I find it very easy to play along the stones/AC/dc records and find it hard to copy Nicko McBrain or Keith Moon.

That's odd to me because I have often regarded Keith Moon and Nicko as motiff players. They have an arsenal of riffage in abundance. But they repeat alot of the same stuff over the years. Yes there are some exceptions which are obvious.

AC DC and Stones maybe easy to play along to. But that's not saying that your getting the feel correct. I'm not here to argue with anyone.
But if what I am saying is not striking a chord than there is some learning you need to do before you start expressing all over a piece of music.

larryace

12-15-2008, 05:43 PM

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 06:09 PM

I think the main thing is to play what YOU think the music needs. That's the great thing about drums, you can inject whatever you want into it. It will go probably one of 2 ways, either it will work or it won't. If you can make it work, as Keith most certainly did, then you will have a style that is uniquely you, which is a beautiful thing. I like that you have the conviction to do as you feel, confidence is essential, and don't let anyone squash your own personal style. I'd say follow your heart, but record yourself, and then decide if what you did works or not, as determined by you. Great thread.

thanks again, friend.

(I think most folks think I have a bad attitude which I dont think I have, I am just thinking differently because I am tired and bored of seeing and hearing the same stuff, again I do have my utmost respect to all drummers here who stick to their own heart)
again.. I know I opened a can of worms.

... listen to Deep Purple The Battle Rages on , Paice was just a Time Keeper, none of the songs stick in my head.
listen to "The Rain Fell Down" the stones-- is that a machine???

m1ck

12-15-2008, 06:29 PM

... Give me a triangle or a tamborine and i'll work that damn thing.

Love your attitude, brother. That's the spirit of a real drummer, imo. I've clapped my hands, played my beer glass with a key and even clicked billiard balls at jam sessions. And my contributions were appreciated.

I recall reading somewhere - probably right here at DW - that Stewart Copeland boasted at some clinic that he could do something that very few modern drummers seem to be able to do, then proceeded to play a straight rock beat for 2 minutes. (Someone correct me if I have it wrong.)

He's a perfect example of a creative time-keeper. One of my all time favorite drummers.

larryace

12-15-2008, 06:29 PM

Yea man, we need different thinkers. Hey, look at it like this...if Keith had listened to anyone telling him to "reign it in", we'd all be the poorer for it. I can see that you're getting resistance to your way of thinking, I will admit that it is a little left of center, but that's the point isn't it? Everyone here isn't against you, they are just relaying universal truths that are generally accepted, and are trying to help. But that isn't saying that there cannot be any "new" truths. Have at it man, you've got my support. Hey, maybe do a You Tube video where you could take a strait backbeat song of your choice and do it with your interpretation. Ruffling feathers is at the very core of rock and roll, and if you're ruffling feathers, you're getting reactions, and that's usually a good sign. It's never easy to be controversial. Everyone tends to want you to color inside the lines. You sound like you want to move the lines a little. I think it's cool. Of course you'd better be able to pull it off.

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 06:44 PM

some of the minor creative chops that I can think of is the following, especially from Charley Watts (Stones)
1. the begining of Start me UP, it is reverse!
2. She is so cold-- when Mick sings "Pekenise"
3. The whole song u cant always get-- (drums by Jimmy Miller though)
4. Get off my cloud

because of these, as a "drum nut" , these songs do stick to my mind.

Bell Bottom Blues-- Eric Clapton on vocal, the whole song is backward drumming!
One world-- Stewart copeland doesnt seem to sit still, playing the octobans in a wild steady style!

when Kenny Jones played with The who , he was playing steady beats for "My Generation" which surprises me cause he was a creative chopper during his time in Faces. I think Keith would have felt sorry while playing along Jimi in heavens above!!

Deathmetalconga

12-15-2008, 07:39 PM

So what you're saying is ,if i play simple then i have no real status as a musician. Hmmm? can you teach me some blast beats to play along with my Tom Petty records.

That's one way of interpreting what I said. Another way is: Among other musicians and the public, drummers are the least respected musicians in Western music genres. And most of them play to meet that expectation. In other words, your status in the band and playing styles are linked to some degree.

Wavelength

12-15-2008, 07:39 PM

Listen to Deep Purple The Battle Rages on , Paice was just a Time Keeper, none of the songs stick in my head.

You should really develop an ear for melodies. Trust me, you'll start enjoying music a lot more.

jonescrusher

12-15-2008, 08:04 PM

Got to call you out on your signature - how is jazz drumming about steady snare beats?

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 08:32 PM

You should really develop an ear for melodies. Trust me, you'll start enjoying music a lot more.

I got over the melodies long time back, my friend. I am thinking the song may sound "less dead" if the drummer chops every now and then.
Listen to Stones "Rough Justice" and "Let me down real slow" the first two songs on Stones Bigger Bang album, the drummer Mr. Watts changed tempo, thats it... the same old style.... simple.

I am starting to think, the bands should release hard rock albums with two drum versions, just simple steady beats, and with Keith moon type drumming for nuts like me......just a wild thought.

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 09:08 PM

Can you teach me some blast beats to play along with my Tom Petty records.

Stan Lynch is creative in "dont come around here anymore",thats it. ...but it sounds like electronic kit though.

We listeners have a right to listen to Tom Petty records with a different drum style....dont u think?

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 09:10 PM

Always somewhere- Scorpions
They re mixed this track with new drums. At least Rudy Lenners did some chops in the original 70's version but the remixed version is so dead!, no chops at all and it sounds horrible.

the same problem with the remixed version of "Blind Man" by David Coverdale. and the remixed version of The Police- Dont Stnad so close to me!!!

geeza

12-15-2008, 10:06 PM

That's one way of interpreting what I said. Another way is: Among other musicians and the public, drummers are the least respected musicians in Western music genres. And most of them play to meet that expectation. In other words, your status in the band and playing styles are linked to some degree.With all due respect i can see somewhat where you're coming from. But wheather you're playing polyrythmic patterns or four on the floor without a single fill, i believe you will gain much respect from any true musician if you approach that song in the right manner. There's a time and a place for it all , and some of the best fills i ever heard were the ones that were'nt played at all. I have respect for all drummers as long as they play from the heart including you.

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 10:27 PM

Even Keith Moon used programmable steady hi hats so that he could be creative on the drums. I like that ! I am not into playing steady hi hats either. They should all be programmed!!...again just a wild thought. ...

did i just open a can of worms?

kwolf68

12-15-2008, 11:29 PM

So what you're saying is ,if i play simple then i have no real status as a musician. Hmmm? can you teach me some blast beats to play along with my Tom Petty records.

LOL, this is actually funny.

My most hated drummer is Charlie Watts...he is simply awful to listen to and to watch. The Stones knew what they were doing though...Mick and Keith were the show and they didn't need someone with the chops of a Ginger Baker showing them up. So they got Watts, they knew NO ONE would care about him.

The Keith Moon

12-15-2008, 11:50 PM

LOL, this is actually funny.

My most hated drummer is Charlie Watts...he is simply awful to listen to and to watch. The Stones knew what they were doing though...Mick and Keith were the show and they didn't need someone with the chops of a Ginger Baker showing them up. So they got Watts, they knew NO ONE would care about him.

I agree 99%, (even though I dont hate anyone, ) just being in the stones made him famous. I do like his playing because it is damn easy to play along. Of Course he is a very respected guy. I dont think he can do chops like some of the folks in Drummerworld forum, and he does admit that. I dont see any special type of drumming in him, in fact watching him drum is not a good thing to watch, the way he strikes on the snare at the end of songs is like he is killing a snake with a stick! The stones became famous just because of the creative writing of Jagger and Richards and their bad boy image, (They were the first who did that, nowadays almost all the bands pose as bad boys, which is so boring... all second hand news news to me.).
Whenever Stones play "u cant always get live, charley plays simple beats, because the original was done by Jimmy Miller who is "up there" jamming with Brian Jones and John Lennon. Charley doesnt even play the way Sympathy for the devil, the way it was recorded.
After all, the stones themselves know whatever crap they do , there are millions of stones fanatics everywhere.

There is room for lot of chops in the song Wild Horses , memory Motel etc...... so it is damn easy to play along these songs and play some unpredictable rolls or chops.

I like the way Charley thinks of drum solos too.... boring.

If a non famous guy plays like Charley Watts, no one gives any credit.

gcarlet

12-15-2008, 11:58 PM

Love your attitude, brother. That's the spirit of a real drummer, imo. I've clapped my hands, played my beer glass with a key and even clicked billiard balls at jam sessions. And my contributions were appreciated.

I recall reading somewhere - probably right here at DW - that Stewart Copeland boasted at some clinic that he could do something that very few modern drummers seem to be able to do, then proceeded to play a straight rock beat for 2 minutes. (Someone correct me if I have it wrong.)

He's a perfect example of a creative time-keeper. One of my all time favorite drummers.

Agreed. Copeland is one of the best.

Guz2

12-15-2008, 11:59 PM

Phill Rudd is extremely solid but his drumming is SO uncreative it makes me sad. He could be a much better drummer than he is if he TRIED SOMETHING NEW!

The Keith Moon

12-16-2008, 12:05 AM

I read somewhere like AC/DC sound is all because of Phil Rud hitting the snare in the middle. I kind of disagree, cause watching AC/DC live at Donington.... Chris Slade on Drums, same solid sound.... its all beacuse of the tuning and miking....I think.

yes, all AC/.DC songs sound the same!

...very easy to play along.

Strangelove

12-16-2008, 01:34 AM

Interesting topic. I have often felt both ways in this conversation. Sometimes true drumming seems like a departure from straight beats, then again we are the heartbeat of the band, too, and we can't forget we are the foundation where it all should start from. I like the way The Doors' John Denmore puts it: "I play the drums.....The drum was the first f'ing instrument. The reason people move and dance is that they're trying to get back to that heartbeat. It's the heartbeat you hear in the womb that started the whole deal. An orchestra, a four-piece rock band, whatever it is, they're trying to get back to that heartbeat." I think those are some of the wisest words to ever justify playing the drums.

But I agree, listening to guys like Watts can be boring as a drummer. OTOH, listening to modern groups like Dragonforce can very appealing to our ears, but maybe not to others. As drummers can you imagine a lead guitar player soloing throughout every song and never playing chords? Even Hendrix never did that, and if he had, nobody would have particularly liked it except the guitar players. Or Louis Johnson beating his Bass into oblivion from intro to extro? Only bass players could probably appreciate that, too. Also, as far as the Stones are concerned, I don't think that Richards or Wyman share any more respect from the guitar and bass crowd than we give ole Watts around here. But they all come up with catchy rythms with nice melodies that sell records, even with the void of musical talent that the Stones are collectively notorious for.

Sometimes I think the modern drumset has gotten stale. Think about it. Has the set really changed much since the 1930's? And where did the idea of the snare come from? Does everybody really like the snare? Maybe we ought to think of coming up with a new sound and a new rythm as drummers. I used to love the sound of one of Neal Peart's drums on his solos - it sounded like a crack of thunder. I'm sure it was an electric trigger, but imagine an acoustic drum that could sound like that!

Deathmetalconga

12-16-2008, 02:25 AM

With all due respect i can see somewhat where you're coming from. But wheather you're playing polyrythmic patterns or four on the floor without a single fill, i believe you will gain much respect from any true musician if you approach that song in the right manner. There's a time and a place for it all , and some of the best fills i ever heard were the ones that were'nt played at all. I have respect for all drummers as long as they play from the heart including you.

I agree that what matters most is that the playing fit the song. It's bad to overplay or underplay if it goes counter to what the song requires. I often have to play simple beats, and sometimes complex ones. I just like listening to drummers who are at the edge, playing the complex stuff, at least when the music and their bandmates give them permission. I get the most intense fulfillment musically when I am pushing the technical limits of what I am able to accomplish. If I can play like that in one out of ten songs then I'm happy.

Also, I notice a lot of people dissing Charlie Watts. I'm not arguing with any of that, but in my opinion, Ringo Starr is in the same league: Someone who just played minimally, unimaginatively and kept a low profile in every way possible, reinforcing the lower status of the drummer. Yet everyone who has gotten within three feet of a drum set cites Ringo as an influence and he gets heaps of respect, while Watts is called out as a slacker.

One can't argue with the success of the most successful rock band in history, but I have to wonder what the Beatles could have sounded like with a truly over-the-top drummer who, of course, played tastefully to fit the music, that's a given.

AlexM

12-16-2008, 03:57 AM

Vinnie Colaiuta (http://drummerworld.com/drummers/Vinnie_Colaiuta.html)

Be warned....

Ian Williams

12-16-2008, 04:17 AM

Might Dave Lombardo or Kenny Clarke, fulfil your wishes?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/DaveLombardo.html

or

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/kennyclarkehudson.html

All the Best,

shuffle

12-16-2008, 04:27 AM

IOne can't argue with the success of the most successful rock band in history, but I have to wonder what the Beatles could have sounded like with a truly over-the-top drummer who, of course, played tastefully to fit the music, that's a given.

But then, on the other hand, listen to these songs, and ask yourself : what can be added to these drum parts that would really improve the songs ? Try and record it, and listen back afterwards...

awesometastic

12-16-2008, 09:47 AM

I'm sorry, but I think The Keith Moon's attitude is terrible.

I agree that just straight time keeping can be boring, but when you advocate the drummer effectively soloing along to the music, and just letting lose with chops the whole time, I think you're going about the solution in the wrong direction. Especially when you said you didn't care about melody.

I used to think that way, back when I was in high school. I ate up the fills of Keith Moon, Mitch Mitchell, and Rush (or tried to anyway) and would throw them in all the time. My bass drum and snare would run all over the measure. But when I went to play with people, no one wanted to play with me. And that's because your chops do not matter at all if you lack feel. Because without feel, even the coolest fill will sound like crap.

But then, I went to college, and I started playing with musicians more regularly. I joined a jazz band. I started taking music theory classes. And most importantly I started REALLY listening to music. When I was younger I would tune out the other instruments to focus on the drums, but now, began to listen to the drums as just one splash of color making up the whole canvas. And when I was playing, of course I listened to myself, but I only listened to myself in relationship to others: how could I best compliment the melody, does the soloist want me to lay back or drive ahead, . Nothing has improved my playing more.

I think you need to be creative in your playing. But that doesn't mean every song should be a chops fest. Look at "Billy Jean" by Michael Jackson. The beat is INCREDIBLY simple, but it fits the song absolutely perfectly. And every once in a while the drummer throws in these little splashes of color. They're rarely more than a flam here or a displaced bass drum there, but each of them adds immeasurably to the song. That's because the drummer recognized that the song didn't need much more than a simple beat to really groove (And it's one of the grooviest songs out there). He also realized that he was making a musical statement just by playing so simply and repetitively, and because of this statement, it made his rare augmentations stand out much more and say so much more about the music than they would have if he had been playing it all the time.

For me, it's the little things like that that make a song great. Anyone can make a big sextuplet roll around the toms. But only the greats know when to lay back, when that ghost note will be most effective, when to add that open hi-hat or extra kick, and even when to lay out completely. That is the mark of a great drummer.

Even Keith Moon himself knew when to lay back. Look at "Baba O'Reilly." 90% of the time he's playing quite a simple pattern. It's no solo all over the place here. And that's because Townshend's keyboards were taking up so much rhythmic space there was little need for the wild man stuff he was known for. And so, when he comes in at 2:31 with his fill, it really grabs your attention like nothing else has in the entire song. It's a simple fill, but it absolutely nails the song perfectly. Even Keith knew when to lay back and listen.

DrummerDavid

12-16-2008, 11:25 AM

When I hear a song...I listen to the WHOLE thing...the beats...the music..the melody...the voice if there is one..and how well they all go to gether...

I just don't drown out everything and listen to only the drums...that to me is BORING...

The Keith Moon

12-16-2008, 02:17 PM

And where did the idea of the snare come from? Does everybody really like the snare? Maybe we ought to think of coming up with a new sound and a new rythm as drummers. I used to love the sound of one of Neal Peart's drums on his solos - it sounded like a crack of thunder. I'm sure it was an electric trigger, but imagine an acoustic drum that could sound like that!

My thoughts as well, I think Van Halen 1984 has a different sound which I dig.

awesometastic, ur posting makes sense as well though, thanks friend... however, regarding Billy Jaen, we heard only one version and we think it is the best. If the drummer had some chops and did something creative , and if that was the only version available (or produced) our point of view might have been different.
Thats why i would think... a wild idea..... some songs should be produced with two drum versions...... we listeners have to right to hear different snare versions , dont u think?
I know we should listen to the whole song, however.... imagine the whole song with a diff. snare pattern! (Guitarists may say with a diff. guitar riff)

The Keith Moon

12-16-2008, 04:18 PM

awesometastic

12-16-2008, 05:21 PM

geeza

12-16-2008, 05:46 PM

My thoughts as well, I think Van Halen 1984 has a different sound which I dig.

awesometastic, ur posting makes sense as well though, thanks friend... however, regarding Billy Jaen, we heard only one version and we think it is the best. If the drummer had some chops and did something creative , and if that was the only version available (or produced) our point of view might have been different.
Thats why i would think... a wild idea..... some songs should be produced with two drum versions...... we listeners have to right to hear different snare versions , dont u think?
I know we should listen to the whole song, however.... imagine the whole song with a diff. snare pattern! (Guitarists may say with a diff. guitar riff)I really think you should work as a studio intern, that way you can hear all the songs you want with different tracks and different drum or snare sounds. We as listeners only have the right to either like or dislike a song, to buy or not to buy. I would love to see some posted tracks of your playing because in all honesty , to me , you seem a little out of touch. Your logic is not rational at times and is borderline absurd. If you post something we can listen to and understand then i'll eat my words.

The Keith Moon

12-16-2008, 06:02 PM

awesometastic

12-16-2008, 06:22 PM

Honestly I am just an entry level guy with a awkward attitude towards drumming. I own a crappy set as well. I salute all of you, honestly.... while getting out some wild ideas that been brewing in my mind.

thanks folks.

I would love to work as a studio intern to be exposed to different drum patterns or to see who is really in charge in terms of the drums....., the band leader or the producer or the drummer himself.

thanks again.

I believe who is in charge of the drumming creativity depends a lot on the artist recording, the drummer in question, and the producer in question. For example, drummers like Gavin Harrison of Porcupine Tree have incredible creative freedom. Steve Gadd may be given a lot of freedom when recording with Paul Simon, but perhaps would be more reigned in when recording with say James Taylor. The drummer for the latest pop phenomenon is probably told most of what to do by a producer.

So your answer is it depends.

Deathmetalconga

12-16-2008, 07:13 PM

Phil Rudd (AC/DC) says himself, Cliff Williams and Malcolm are locked in the rhythm section to get a perfect Rhythm section. This is the case for all AC/DC songs. Can they think beyond that? they should try to let it loose every now and then to make it somewhat different. He says he never use a click trck. well... he is the click track... almost every AC/DC drummer is a click track drummer.

I think the universal thinking of the rhythm section should change.

Not universally. For some groups, like AC/DC, the drummer plays exactly what is called for. He's just a human metronome. If he played any more, it would be out of place. I'm sure they can think and play beyond that, but for certain genres, they shouldn't. Ringo Starr isn't much beyond this level and the music of the Beatles called for something more.

It is very, very rare to hear a drummer overplay but fairly common for them to underplay. I think that's because the producer and band leaders dictate how the drummer should sound. That's just our lot in life as drummers. Most people like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer.

Steamer

12-16-2008, 07:18 PM

I think the universal thinking of the rhythm section should change.

I did a very LONG time ago trust me already but i'm not talking drum/rhythm section concepts related to pop music in particular but in another form of music that took place that changed the overall shape of the music based on creative conceptual ideas within the rhythm section forever.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/tonywilliamsdavis5.html

deltadrummer1

12-16-2008, 09:55 PM

In what way? How would you improve upon these tracks? What creative beat would you use? Where would you put your fills? It would be cool if you could make a recording so we know what you mean.

I agree. The Keith Moon should post his rendition of these songs since the versions done by the original artists obviously are not good enough. hahahaha

awesometastic

12-16-2008, 11:02 PM

Not universally. For some groups, like AC/DC, the drummer plays exactly what is called for. He's just a human metronome. If he played any more, it would be out of place. I'm sure they can think and play beyond that, but for certain genres, they shouldn't. Ringo Starr isn't much beyond this level and the music of the Beatles called for something more.

It is very, very rare to hear a drummer overplay but fairly common for them to underplay. I think that's because the producer and band leaders dictate how the drummer should sound. That's just our lot in life as drummers. Most people like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer.

Wait really? The Beatles required more complicated playing than Ringo delivered? Where? I think you are profoundly mistaken. Ringo played simply, but also had a lot of subtle complexities. Listen to the fills on "A Day in the Life" or "Strawberry Fields." He was also particularly adept at coming up with creative and unusual rock beats like "Come Together," "You Won't See Me," or "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that always fit the song perfectly.

I am really tired of Ringo hate. He is criminally underrated. I would love to be as good a drummer as Ringo.

How would you improve the drumming on Beatles tracks?

Deathmetalconga

12-16-2008, 11:34 PM

Wait really? The Beatles required more complicated playing than Ringo delivered? Where? I think you are profoundly mistaken. Ringo played simply, but also had a lot of subtle complexities. Listen to the fills on "A Day in the Life" or "Strawberry Fields." He was also particularly adept at coming up with creative and unusual rock beats like "Come Together," "You Won't See Me," or "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that always fit the song perfectly.

I am really tired of Ringo hate. He is criminally underrated. I would love to be as good a drummer as Ringo.

How would you improve the drumming on Beatles tracks?

I dare to make a peep that he really isn't one of the greatest drummers the world has ever known, and some people think Ringo is "criminally underrated."

I don't hate Ringo, but I think he is habitually overrated. Back in the real world, everybody who has tapped a drum, including my cat, names him as an influence, so he's held in very very high esteem among drummers. In my opinion, for what it's worth, he's held in higher esteem that what he deserves among drummers. Google the phrase "the Ringo Starr of" to see what everyone else thinks about him.

I think the drumming on the Beatles tracks could have been improved with someone playing with more bang, sizzle and pop. Most of the time, Ringo just seems to play the bare minimum and not very imaginatively, much like Charlie Watts, who also had a very subsidiary role in his band. That's just the impression I get from listening to Beatles music played year-round in public places, much like Christmas music is played during the holidays. I don't have the time or inclination to justify my opinion to you by citing albums, songs, verses and measures, along with transcripted and recorded outtakes.

Like I've said before, it's hard to argue with the most successful group in Western rock music, but you did ask for what I'd do to improve things in my view. More verve, more jump and - I say this at risk to my personal safety - more display of chops. Even a little tiny bit.

The Keith Moon

12-16-2008, 11:36 PM

rock beats like "Come Together," "You Won't See Me," or "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that always fit the song perfectly.

I agree but.......... i never get to hear any other version though! I could change my mind.

jay norem

12-16-2008, 11:49 PM

Let's face it, though: nine times out of ten you're going to get hired to keep time, not to dazzle anyone with innovative over-the-top drumming. It's fine to talk about a few famous rock bands, but how many of you are going to be in the next-big-thing band? Maybe one out of all the members of this forum. The rest are either going to have to do exactly what the gig calls for, and do it very well, or play however you want to play and work in an office.
Edit: that is not to say that there's anything at all wrong with working in an office.

deltadrummer1

12-17-2008, 01:19 AM

m1ck

12-17-2008, 03:08 AM

... Sometimes true drumming seems like a departure from straight beats, then again we are the heartbeat of the band, too, and we can't forget we are the foundation where it all should start from. I like the way The Doors' John Denmore puts it: "I play the drums.....The drum was the first f'ing instrument. The reason people move and dance is that they're trying to get back to that heartbeat. It's the heartbeat you hear in the womb that started the whole deal. An orchestra, a four-piece rock band, whatever it is, they're trying to get back to that heartbeat." I think those are some of the wisest words to ever justify playing the drums. ...

In rock music, it's the rhythm section that moves the audience while the frontmen and other musicians entertain them.

That's the way I see it.

$0.02

stasz

12-17-2008, 04:02 AM

I believe the first thing that you must do-- and I mean MUST do-- if you're going to judge whether you like a song or not is to separate the "technical" aspect of what is being played. What I mean is that I don't believe you should judge a piece of music by the means used to create that music. Whether the drummer was playing things that are not very difficult for him or her to play or the drummer is playing things that are difficult. Whether there is a human being playing the drums or there is a drum machine playing programmed drums doesn't matter to me.

That being said, I believe that there are reasons why things are the way they are. If you hear a lot of "simple" drumming on the radio it's probably because people like to hear music that sounds like that. The number one criterion as to whether you should listen to a piece of music is that you enjoy listening to it, right? Are you saying that you would like to hear more songs with "Kieth Moon drumming" because it's more fun to play in that style or because you really do enjoy hearing playing like that? It is more important than anything else that it sounds good to you. I don't have any problem with that style of drumming. I think it sounds great when it is called for in music. I'm not putting you down because I believe that you really do want to hear that style of drumming in music because you think it sounds good. Like larryace said, you should go for it. Make some music with the drums that you think make the music sound good.

So to answer your signature... "why follow the crowd?" Because I agree with the crowd. I like the way a hi-hat sounds in music. So it's conventional... does that matter? Hi-hats are groovy.

I really have enjoying thinking about this, though. I totally relate to your sentiment. There's a drummer whose name is Kris Myers who plays with a band called Umphrey's McGee. The first time I head Kris, I enjoyed his playing so much because I think he comes up with some of the most creative things on the drums, and sometimes you don't hear that type of playing in lots of music. He doesn't necessarily play "solos with the music" but his playing was almost a realization for me that made me realize how great drumming can sound.

Wavelength

12-17-2008, 10:43 AM

I think the drumming on the Beatles tracks could have been improved with someone playing with more bang, sizzle and pop. Most of the time, Ringo just seems to play the bare minimum and not very imaginatively, much like Charlie Watts, who also had a very subsidiary role in his band.

Are you sure you're not talking about Bernard Purdie (http://www.beatlesagain.com/breflib/purdie.html)?

Strangelove

12-17-2008, 10:35 PM

Not universally. I think that's because the producer and band leaders dictate how the drummer should sound. That's just our lot in life as drummers. Most people like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer.

Exactly. This is why we have The Beatles, whose predominance has always revolved around vocals and vocal harmonies, as well as bands like Rush, whose main focus was on intricate, syncopated rythms. In the former, the rythm section took the background as it should have. Even Paul did little more than pluck single note chord parallels. In the latter, the drummer and bass player were more in the forefront than anybody else. It all depends on the band and their style of playing.

LeeLovesSabian

12-18-2008, 04:22 PM

Time Keeping is okay, but it doesn't add a whole lot to the song.
Creative drummers amp up the songs temp, and volume.

For example: Neil Peart v.s. Phil Rudd?
Neil Peart.

The Keith Moon

12-18-2008, 04:45 PM

It all depends on the band and their style of playing.

makes sense to me , after all from all this discussion.
However.. I dont know why there are any Keith Moon type drummers now, who doesnt somewhat follow the crowd (besides me, even though I am just entry level :))

Drifter in the Dark

12-18-2008, 05:20 PM

This discussion has relevance to a song I'm currently working on, "Lover You Should Have Come Over" by Jeff Buckley. It's one of the more difficult songs I've played because it has a very sparse 6/8 feel. The first minute or so is nothing but kick, side-stick, and hi-hat played with the foot. Getting the hats and the side-stick to line up while playing that slowly is no easy task. Later on in the song, drummer Matt Johnson amps it up with offbeat fills and tricky syncopations. Why? becuase it's what the song called for. He's not just a pocket player and he's not just a chops monster. It's that kind of versatility that's hard to come by in musicians, but when you find it in others or yourself, it can be the most inspiring thing in the world.

The Keith Moon

12-18-2008, 06:15 PM

I will definitely listen to that song by Jeff Buckley. Thanks friend.

Drumsword

12-18-2008, 06:56 PM

I gotta weigh in... lol.

I support your ideas of taking drums in a new direction, and making them do what your hearing in your head. That's what happens in music, people get tired of the "Norm" and take things in different directions, outside the box. More power to you, and keep us informed on what your doing, and we'd love to hear sound bytes of your ideas.

On the other hand, Guys Like Charlie watts, Ringo, Phil, etc. At the time they were making hits (And still do) Were playing a new genre of music at the time, and what they were playing is what the music and or the bands were calling for. I don't think Keith would have been appropriate for the Stones any more then Charlie would have been for the Who. Etc.

When I was 18 or 19 I had different ideals about music then I do today. I was listening to recordings, and video of me with a couple bands way back then and I am a completely different player today, As I shouyld be with 25 years experience..lol. Back then I was big on over the top fills, double bass and Rolls. I still utilize everything but in different ways and when I play covers of some of the songs you mentioned, I often give it my own feel, or added expression but try to maintain the integrity of the song.

When I started writing my own music and songs I had every intention of making it a bombastic killer drum album........ But as the songs took life I realised that I wanted the melody to support the lyrics, and then I wanted the drums to frame the songs, then I wanted an over the top rhythmic guitar feel over the drum feel, and so on. And I did write a couple solo drum compositions that more expressed the creative drummer in me but all in all, as my songs took life I was more concerned with everything supporting and uplifting everything else.

That I feel is partly, or largely why a lot of bands have "Boring" drum patterns, or rhythms as the artist becomes a part of the big picture, and where do they want the emphasis placed, etc.

So I applaud your creative ideas, just don't dis the rest of us for being simple at times.

The Keith Moon

12-18-2008, 07:10 PM

I know I am in a Keith Moon rut who thinks all songs should be played that way which is stupid. Please do understand I am just an entry level guy and I do have high respect to all of the folks here, never want to offend any. I was just thinking differently. The reason I said simple beats is it seems simple to me, thats why but I do understand there are more than that, and I realize more now from all of your posts.

for time being I am just a basement drummer who got blown away by seeing the Who videos and is thinking differently, again by not offending anyone)
Thanks again .

jonescrusher

12-18-2008, 07:23 PM

makes sense to me , after all from all this discussion.
However.. I dont know why there are any Keith Moon type drummers now, who doesnt somewhat follow the crowd (besides me, even though I am just entry level :))

If you mean 'why aren't there Keith Moon style drummers', well, there aren't any Keith Moon style bands around. Keith Moon and the Who are part and parcel, you couldn't have one without the other. In terms of the art of drumming, the discipline of the instrument, Moon doesn't rank highly - he was technically lacking, prone to sloppiness and lacked versatility. Frankly, he makes for a bad role model to aspiring drummers. Put him with the Who and he cooks.

Drumsword

12-18-2008, 07:26 PM

I understand man, and i'm not offended. and good luck with everything man. welcome to the drumming community.

jimtyler

12-19-2008, 02:25 AM

When I was younger, I often felt the same as you. I was listening to Billy Cobham and Mahavishnu Orchestra, Carl Palmer with ELP, Bruford with King Crimson, and I thought "Why would anyone settle for a 2 and 4?".
But then I heard Bruford do exactly that. He played an entire song doing nothing but hitting the 2 and 4. As I listened I thought,,perfection! He could have done anything, all his chops are there, but he chose not to use them. He played the SONG perfectly.
Then I made my living playing drums. It is different where just playing simple beats for the dance crowd puts gas in the car, pays the rent, and feeds the family
I'm lucky now, all I do is clinics and solo concerts. I can do whatever I want and I've developed something unheard of in drumming, actually playing songs on a tuned drum set! It is a real challenge, and even though it may not be blazing fast, the difficulty is there.
Set your own style, don't be afraid of creativity, but also recognise the time and place for it.

JanoHatesDrumming

12-19-2008, 02:48 AM

time keeping is important but lately ive been listening to a lot of gorgoroth and cannibal corpe and think that even thoght the have NOOOOOOO rhythm it is still epic and orgazimisticy amazing

The Keith Moon

12-19-2008, 03:25 AM

Thanks Jimtyler.
Yes, I do recognize the beauty of simple beats.
Honestly I look up on all of you folks here who really play in gigs.
I know I need to learn a lot from here.... again following what my heart wants me to do by developing my own style .
thanks again.

awesometastic

12-19-2008, 05:10 AM

The Keith Moon, I think it's impressive how you've opened your mind quite a bit in this thread alone.

How long have you been playing drums and how old are you?

Matty G.

12-19-2008, 08:37 AM

Great discussion on this thread. I think that you need to account for musical depth, when talking about simple patterns. I quote Steve Jordan, "Simplicity is not stupidity." A simple pattern, like an eighth note groove, can sound overwhelming powerful in the hands of a master like Porcaro, Gadd, Purdie, Bonham, etc. Why? Because those guys have a depth to their playing. It's not just solid time-keeping, it's the personal sound, feel, and tone that they pull out of the groove. And conversely, a chops-blazing fill can sound powerful, and can elevate a band if it is musical, and if it is rooted in the authenticity of the players voice, like Buddy, for example.

There is also the whole concept of 'rightness.' I'll do my best to explain by giving an analogy in the world of composers - Beethoven. Leonard Bernstein, in one of his books, The Joy of Music, set out in a humorous dialogue to find out why Beethoven is regarded the best composer in classical music. He and his friends first analyze all the technical aspects of his music - rhythm. It turns out that he was pretty good at rhythm, but never really invented anything gound-breaking in that dept., and his music was certainly not as rhythmically interesting as later composers. OK, so how about melody - he could write a decent melody, but most of his pieces, frankly, do not have much melody, nothing as masterful as the melodies of say Tchaikovsky, or Gershwin, or Paul McCartney. They contain melodic fragments, but very few show-stoppers. What about harmony? - some innovation, but not much, definitely not as much the next generation of composers, like Berlioz, Wagner, and Debussy. Orchestration - totally conventional, and became more and more problematic as he became more and more deaf. OK then, if it's not rhythm, melody, harmony, or orchestration, what makes him the best? Answer - rightness! Every piece that he wrote seems impossible to improve upon. The succession of notes seems totally perfect. The 2nd note follows the 1st in just the RIGHT way. And that is the most important question the composer can ask - What is the next note? Not the most complicated, or the prettiest note, or the hippest note, or the most creative note - what is the RIGHT note? And he possessed that gift to a higher degree than any other composer, and leaves all the rest in the dust.

As drummers we compose our own drum part, and so we are ourselves asking 'what should the next note be", and our experience gives us our answer. Some people just have it. You hear their playing and think, "that was the perfect fill, or groove, or feel, for the moment." Whether it is simple or not, doesn't determine the rightness. Music is a product of the musician and the listener. That magic X factor.

juan2many

12-19-2008, 02:30 PM

I watched Vinnie play A Day In The Life with Jeff Beck. Didn't like it at all...far too much.

Give me the sound of Ringo on "Hello Goodbye" any day and ..I Am The Walrus..... just beautiful.

The Keith Moon

12-19-2008, 03:44 PM

The Keith Moon, I think it's impressive how you've opened your mind quite a bit in this thread alone.

How long have you been playing drums and how old are you?

thanks , well... I am in my forties, I know u folks might have thought like me long time ago and got over this frustrtation. I have been playing drums only for the last 3
years! just because i could afford to buy one only3 years ago. I am playing drums just for my enjoyment, honestly.

When I listen to some blues songs, some rolls just plays in my head , which is not really there, for eg: Stevie Ray Vaugahn (Chris Layton)

rockitman

12-19-2008, 04:18 PM

The Keith Moon.

As long as you realize that there is difference between musical expression and just tossing off on drumset. After reading this entire thread I do believe you are a little more enamored with the persona of Keith Moon, than the drummer.

There is time keeping and creative expression. They work really well together, it's not black and white, one or the other. Drummers like Rudd and Watts may be playing from the heart, you'll never really know until you understand what's going on.

The Keith Moon

12-19-2008, 04:50 PM

thanks Rockit.

I find it hard to play along "Dark Star"- Crosby Still and Nash---- Joe Vitale! classic steady beat, might have been a challenge to Keith Moon, I guess!

Deathmetalconga

12-19-2008, 08:02 PM

thanks , well... I am in my forties, I know u folks might have thought like me long time ago and got over this frustrtation. I have been playing drums only for the last 3
years! just because i could afford to buy one only3 years ago. I am playing drums just for my enjoyment, honestly.

When I listen to some blues songs, some rolls just plays in my head , which is not really there, for eg: Stevie Ray Vaugahn (Chris Layton)

If you are just starting out, you are in an exciting time in your journey. I'm 43 and I've been playing 25 years, but there is something about the way I approached the drums in the first five years that I wish I could recapture.

Keep listening and playing and aspiring to your musical idols. It is good that you are asking these kinds of questions as it makes all of us reassess what we do and why.

It is the mark of a master, I think, to make a complex thing sound simple and to make a simple thing sound complex, and to put those things in their proper places in the music.

rockitman

12-19-2008, 08:08 PM

Speaking to the Keith Moon point specifically. He likely would not have had his way with the music so much if he didn't have Entwistle and Townsend with him. Those guys are/were awesome rhythm players.

The Keith Moon

12-19-2008, 08:45 PM

If you are just starting out, you are in an exciting time in your journey. I'm 43 and I've been playing 25 years, but there is something about the way I approached the drums in the first five years that I wish I could recapture.

Keep listening and playing and aspiring to your musical idols. It is good that you are asking these kinds of questions as it makes all of us reassess what we do and why.

It is the mark of a master, I think, to make a complex thing sound simple and to make a simple thing sound complex, and to put those things in their proper places in the music.

thanks friend.

yes, u r right Rockitman. It all depends on how the others cope with what drummer wants to do. Otherwise, the drummer will have to play all the instruments by himself and mix them all together.
I heard one Michael Sckenker album, where he played all the instruments by himself.
no vocals though, it is just a instrumental album. It is called "The Odd Trio", released in 2000.

The Keith Moon

12-20-2008, 06:00 PM

So here is the million dollar question, whether it is dumb or wise, I am going ask anyways.

Are Townshend and Enwhistle the only musicians in the entire rock world to create music which is compatable to Keith Moon type drumming, (of course sloppy for some folks),?
When Kenney Joined, he had a chance to play like moon but he ddnt. Could be the only reason he was asked to leave.(I liked his drumming in u better u bet, slightly like Moon but not in all other songs) Drumming in "eminence front"-- if Keith were alive, it would have been something different.

Matty G.

12-20-2008, 09:35 PM

I watched Vinnie play A Day In The Life with Jeff Beck. Didn't like it at all...far too much.

Give me the sound of Ringo on "Hello Goodbye" any day and ..I Am The Walrus..... just beautiful.

Ringo does have a wonderful sound. And the space he left allowed Paul to play some AMAZING bass lines. That kind of give and take is so crucial for creating a grooving rhythm section, something the James Brown drummers understood also.

larryace

12-21-2008, 07:21 PM

Drumming is like a recipe, too much of any one ingredient will ruin the delicate balance of flavors.
Drumming is also like conversation, it's rude to interrupt someone or redirect attention to yourself when they are trying to make a statement. I try to anticipate the natural pauses in the solo, and that's where I will make my little supportive contribution to the soloists statement.
Drumming is also like life, if you can look beyond yourself and see others, well, that makes for fulfilling relationships.
Maybe a little esoteric, but the philosophy behind the way you approach the drumkit really defines to a large extent, your particular style.
I try to find ways to be creative without violating these "rules" that are part of my own personal philosophy.
Sometimes it's not the right time to get "creative" and the song is best served by taking strictly a supportive role. (Looking past yourself) A tender ballad where the singer is telling a great story is a good example.

wy yung

12-22-2008, 02:46 AM

AC/DC, Rolling stones, etc..... seem to have Time Keeping drummers. I know they dont use click track but the drumming seems so simple and it feels like they are there just for the time keeping, which seems boring to me.
Can you suggest any other drummers (or albums) other than Keith Moon, Ian Paice (Old purple albums) who plays more than just time keeping or who go out of the way and being creative every now and then?

You seem to be suggesting that creativity and timekeeping are separate and that one cannot have one without the other. Tony Williams was one of the most creative drummers of history and his time was wonderful. The same could be said for any other top flight drummer. Charlie Watts plays for the song in the Stones. In that band that is his job. I have heard Gadd play the simplest drumming and then on another project go all out.

I think perhaps what you need to do is some serious research and listening practice. Try other musical styles. Samba, jazz, Afro Cuban etc. There are many creative drummers making ground every day. Your list is pretty old hat and out of date. Moon is decades dead and Paice hasn't done anything of note in years. I saw Deep Purple at Montreax and it was a shabby performance to say the least.

Get current and you will find a great abundance of creative drumming.

Retrovertigo

12-22-2008, 10:53 AM

this thread really seems all set but ill add to it anyway. in the case of AC/DC take away the obscenely pedestrian groove in Back in Black if all it is is just a way to mark the time. without it we're lost. its a vision of perfection. this groove and that tune make me want to bang my head straight off my shoulders.

Ringo was very creative as a writer. not just at the drums but also as someone who contributed to the song writing process with the band. that's why he didn't bury the music in a drum fog. he could see past his own ego.

also the argument that because a drum part is easy to play that is must not be creative is really short sighted. after enough practice a lot of things become easy. would vinnie have any trouble playin DMB or Tool stuff? Im sayin no. it doesnt have to be that exaggerated. i used to have trouble playing to RATM stuff. i played to it a lot and eventually it became easy. Same with Tool and Jimi . just cause i can play like them says nothing of my actual ability. I could never write any parts like them. they are just too creative for me. and thats all that matters. if people want to hear that stuff then they will put a CD on. they could care less about the fact that i can do it too.

but in the end you should do whatever you want. you will get some gigs and not others. who cares. at least you will be able to look at yourself in the mirror. and you'll learn a ton about yourself in the process.

Big_Philly

12-22-2008, 12:29 PM

My take on time-keeping is that I (try to) play whatever sounds good for the music. Sometimes that means not playing, sometimes that means very intensive and technical playing. And if I happen to keep time for the rest of the band while I'm at it, so be it. I do keep time for myself, obviously, but expect the other band member to have that same ability in order to keep things running smooth in those songs / sections where I am not playing.

LeeLovesSabian

12-23-2008, 04:13 AM

time keeping is important but lately ive been listening to a lot of gorgoroth and cannibal corpe and think that even thoght the have NOOOOOOO rhythm it is still epic and orgazimisticy amazing

Are you Daft?
There is nothing good about Gorgoroth and Cannibal Corpse.

ddamm27913

12-23-2008, 04:33 AM

Mr. Beard from ZZ Top sure knows how to have painfully steady time. His style isn't that bland though...

The drummer from George Thorogood and the Destroyers keeps great time but never does much other than the occasional few 16th notes on teh snare followed by a crash

Pachikara-Tharakan

02-02-2009, 03:34 PM

The Keith Moon:

yes.... there is something beyond time keeping, time keeping seems boring whoever plays.
You should listen to Elton John Drummer Nigel Ollson . He doesnt play steady but it is hard to play along, very neat and synchronizes with the songs
Eg: Rocket Man, Your song, Daniel etcc...

I love to hear Today's drummers play rock songs like this creatively.

The Colonel

02-02-2009, 11:45 PM

Interesting read.

Nothing wrong with wanting more from any musical standpoint: the drums or guitar or maybe you thought the song would be better with a choir going nuts during the chorus. I guess the problem for you, The Keith Moon, is you say you are entry level so you might not [yet] be able to do much about it.

I didn't have a problem with anything you said in the beginning of the thread and was going to jump in I'm defense but you seem to have taken some of what's been said to you and absorbed it. That's fine too. There's nothing wrong with thinking differently about convention - just know that the language you use might sometimes bring a call to arms for people who don't agree.

I think people actually underrate Keith Moon still. Sure, Jonescrusher, you say he "cooks" with The Who but not before slagging him about his technical prowess. Well thank goodness he had those technical shortcomings. I wouldn't want Thomas Lang anywhere near my Who records. Moon played like no other and I always find myself shaking my head when I check out a band that supposedly has a "Keith Moon" drummer and it's just a guy playing a lot... I have watched The Who's Isle of Wight DVD a thousand times and watching Moon I am always blown away and thinking "who else would have done that?" answer: no one. And people don't think like him today. They think "play like Moon" which I've yet to hear convincingly... I'll take Moon over Mitchell, Bonham, or Baker (if I had to - love them all) because of that genuinely original approach he had. I don't give a rat's ass if his clave-foot ostinatos weren't up to snuff...

I thought it a little funny when we found out The Keith Moon's age and the thread's tone suddenly changed. Had he been 14 I think we'd still be at it with him, no? (be honest)

As for something you'd be into, TKM, have you heard Dungen? Great band - well actually the first two albums are all one guy(!), now he's got a band together - and the drumming is really great and I think a lot if the songs have something you're looking for. Pick up the first two albums - I can't vouch for the third one yet - still need to pick that one up...(man I have to get to a record store - it's been months!)