John Bonham tuning

[warrier1]

I was just listening to the John Bonham site here, the guy talked about the way he tuned his drums, the batter heads were tuned high, but the reso heads were higher, same thing with the bass drum, does anyone know how they were tuned, and if you were using a drum dial, what would the settings be, i really like his sound, any help would be appreciated thks.

[rhythmjunkie]

I was just listening to the John Bonham site here, the guy talked about the way he tuned his drums, the batter heads were tuned high, but the reso heads were higher, same thing with the bass drum, does anyone know how they were tuned, and if you were using a drum dial, what would the settings be, i really like his sound, any help would be appreciated thks.

You might need to buy an acrylic drumset, slap some clear, Remo, CS (sound control) black dot heads and tune your drums in the above fashion, to get that sound. Just the other day my buddy explained to me; Mr Bonham used a 6 1/2 x 14 steal Ludwig snare drum witch he tuned high and kept the snares loose. Now all you'll have to do is grow a mustache and long hair.

[harryconway]

You might need to buy an acrylic drumset ......
Cheaper, would be buy the DVD, "Trust Your Ears", by Jeff Ocheltree. It'll save you the cost of buying a drum dial AND a Ludwig Vistalite drum kit. Plus, the Vistalite would "only" give you the JB stage sound. He used his Ludwig 3 ply maple kits in the studio. The "big" drum sound is simply that. Big drums. You have to get into the "sweet spot", and that's gonna be different in a 20, 22, 24, 26, 28 (I've had all those sizes). Right now I've a 22x14 Rogers and a 26x14 Ludwig. The "not so secret secret" JB used was tuning his reso. head higher than the batter. Very "old school". You have to remember, or realize, the Remo pinstripe head was invented sometime around 1973. That's the year Led Zepps. 5th album came out. There were no SuperkickEMADyaddayadda heads back then. Emperor/Ambassador or Controlled Sound/Ambassador and a felt strip...and a good ear. As Mr. Ocheltree says, "drum tuning is an art, not a science".

[trkdrmr]

Cheaper, would be buy the DVD, "Trust Your Ears", by Jeff Ocheltree. It'll save you the cost of buying a drum dial AND a Ludwig Vistalite drum kit. Plus, the Vistalite would "only" give you the JB stage sound. He used his Ludwig 3 ply maple kits in the studio. The "big" drum sound is simply that. Big drums. You have to get into the "sweet spot", and that's gonna be different in a 20, 22, 24, 26, 28 (I've had all those sizes). Right now I've a 22x14 Rogers and a 26x14 Ludwig. The "not so secret secret" JB used was tuning his reso. head higher than the batter. Very "old school". You have to remember, or realize, the Remo pinstripe head was invented sometime around 1973. That's the year Led Zepps. 5th album came out. There were no SuperkickEMADyaddayadda heads back then. Emperor/Ambassador or Controlled Sound/Ambassador and a felt strip...and a good ear. As Mr. Ocheltree says, "drum tuning is an art, not a science".

I love that DVD! The demo of his green sparkle kit and the methods of tuning the 26" kick. Tight coated ambs on bottom, kind of tight coated emperors on top. It was nice to see Mark Craney before he passed away, and Danny on that Paiste bronze kit. Pure drum porn.

IMO, that vistalite kit sounded very dry and hollow compared to the maple.

[Ashton Drum's]

This might help youtube has everything well nearly everything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMqHqADnREY

[harryconway]

I love that DVD! Without a doubt, anyone who plays drums should watch it and/or own it. The demo of his green sparkle kit and the methods of tuning the 26" kick. Tight coated ambs on bottom, kind of tight coated emperors on top. Jeff's approach, I love it. You need to put the head on the drum and tune it. His "just do it attitude". Tighten the rods clockwise, counterclockwise, star pattern, randomly, burn incense, sprinkle with holy water, it's all good...whatever works.
IMO, that vistalite kit sounded very dry and hollow compared to the maple. Acrylic drums are a different beast, for sure. I played Luddie Vista's for 25+ years.Very "live" drums. Really bright. Mostly, I ran clear Pins. batter and clear Ambs. reso., that "tamed" them quite a bit. Great stage drums. Now I'm in a rut with Rogers XP-8 shells and Luddie 6 ply. Not a bad place to be, if you have to be somewhere.

[jjmason777]

Ok, here's the deal. I have Ocheltree's DVD. He never REALLY reveals Bonhams "secret". Instead, he says thinks like; "he tuned the bottom head WAY up", and "the bottom head would be tuned the way you would hear a snare drum being tuned". Not very technical. However with those clues, and some experimentation, I have come very close.

First, for all wood drums, you gotta go coated Emperors over coated Ambassadors. Tune the top head to just a little up from where the drum makes a nice clear resonant tone, but not enough to start choking it. Then tune the bottom head a perfect fourth higher than the top head. Do not use any muffling or dampening. The tuning takes care of the dampening. The snare tuning is high and tight, the bottom head higher but not a fourth, just until it sounds right. Snares somewhat loose, so you can hear the snares even with the lightest tap. But for the bass, I prefer Aquarian Superkick 1s. This tuning is neither original or secret, but has been used by jazz drummers for decades. Bonham was very jazz influenced, and he liked that sound. Combine that with large drums, his unique feel, and boom, classic rock god. Oh, I have a drum dial too. Sell it. They are worthless, and will drive you mad.

I must warn you that they will sound weird to you at first from behind the kit because you will hear a lot of the bottom head, and it will sound high and choked, but out in the room (where his room mikes were) they sound open and beautiful.

[Nickkk]

Ok, here's the deal. I have Ocheltree's DVD. He never REALLY reveals Bonhams "secret". Instead, he says thinks like; "he tuned the bottom head WAY up", and "the bottom head would be tuned the way you would hear a snare drum being tuned". Not very technical. However with those clues, and some experimentation, I have come very close.

First, for all wood drums, you gotta go coated Emperors over coated Ambassadors. Tune the top head to just a little up from where the drum makes a nice clear resonant tone, but not enough to start choking it. Then tune the bottom head a perfect fourth higher than the top head. Do not use any muffling or dampening. The tuning takes care of the dampening. The snare tuning is high and tight, the bottom head higher but not a fourth, just until it sounds right. Snares somewhat loose, so you can hear the snares even with the lightest tap. But for the bass, I prefer Aquarian Superkick 1s. This tuning is neither original or secret, but has been used by jazz drummers for decades. Bonham was very jazz influenced, and he liked that sound. Combine that with large drums, his unique feel, and boom, classic rock god. Oh, I have a drum dial too. Sell it. They are worthless, and will drive you mad.

I must warn you that they will sound weird to you at first from behind the kit because you will hear a lot of the bottom head, and it will sound high and choked, but out in the room (where his room mikes were) they sound open and beautiful.

that pretty much says it all, ive had alot of fun tuning up my luddies along these principles.
but one thing bothered me in this months Modern Drummer magazine (december2008)...someone asked the same JB tuning question which was answerd by Mr Ochletree himself.
Jeff's advice was to make sure the batter was tuned higher than the reso. this conflicts with what i had previously heard. According to the article: "Remember, the batter head needs to be pitched higher than the resonant to avoid a flapping, clicking sound. bass drums must have the lowest but clearest sound possible in order to give your kit the "bottom you're looking for "please correct me if im missing something here but it seemed at odds with his own advice even on the DVD.

maybe i should experiment some more, but my 22 x 14 3ply Ludwig kick sounds great with the reso pitched higher and the felt strips on batter and reso sides.

[harryconway]

...... in this months Modern Drummer magazine (december2008)...someone asked the same JB tuning question which was answerd by Mr Ochletree himself.
Jeff's advice was to make sure the batter was tuned higher than the reso. this conflicts with what i had previously heard.
Could be just a MD typo....I'd wait to see what the "fall out" is from that.

[Vipercussionist]

You have all forgotten the MOST important and CRUCIAL part of this "Tone" equation.

John Bonham the man.

His TOUCH was what made the tone happen, he had his own way of playing that some can emulate, but no one can really duplicate as they are not HIM!!!

It took his special magical way of playing to bring out what you heard, not JUST the drums, not JUST the tuning, not JUST the heads used, not JUST any one thing!! It was ALL of those things and one more . . . HIM!!

John Henry Bonham.

Unless he comes back re-incarnate, you will never hear exactly that again. Some things will be close, but not exactly John Bonham.
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__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

[Nickkk]

Could be just a MD typo....I'd wait to see what the "fall out" is from that.


i wondered about that. for a typo with such a fundamental flaw its pretty hillarious given the context of this thread.
i had to re-read it a few times, and i know the article was specifically adressing the ''Big Bass Drum Tone'' issue but it still seemed contradictory.

[Nickkk]

You have all forgotten the MOST important and CRUCIAL part of this "Tone" equation.

John Bonham the man.

His TOUCH was what made the tone happen, he had his own way of playing that some can emulate, but no one can really duplicate as they are not HIM!!!

It took his special magical way of playing to bring out what you heard, not JUST the drums, not JUST the tuning, not JUST the heads used, not JUST any one thing!! It was ALL of those things and one more . . . HIM!!

John Henry Bonham.

Unless he comes back re-incarnate, you will never hear exactly that again. Some things will be close, but not exactly John Bonham.
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

great point well made imo

[The Keith Moon]

You have all forgotten the MOST important and CRUCIAL part of this "Tone" equation.

John Bonham the man.

His TOUCH was what made the tone happen, he had his own way of playing that some can emulate, but no one can really duplicate as they are not HIM!!!

It took his special magical way of playing to bring out what you heard, not JUST the drums, not JUST the tuning, not JUST the heads used, not JUST any one thing!! It was ALL of those things and one more . . . HIM!!

John Henry Bonham.

Unless he comes back re-incarnate, you will never hear exactly that again. Some things will be close, but not exactly John Bonham.
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

I dont think I can play like John Bonham but the drum sound.... any qualified recording engineer can achieve.

[jjmason777]

You have all forgotten the MOST important and CRUCIAL part of this "Tone" equation.


His TOUCH was what made the tone happen...not JUST the drums, not JUST the tuning, not JUST the heads used, not JUST any one thing!! It was ALL of those things and one more . . . HIM!!

.

That is true to some extent, as far as his playing is concerned, but don't forget Jimmy Page's engineering skills, mic placement, etc.
Remember this, the drums don't know who's playing them. Bonhams only technique for hitting a drum (I'm not talking playing here) was to make sure that with this tuning, he hit the drum right in the center of the head. The sweet spot. That is very important. If you don't believe me, just look at his drum heads (he liked them well used). All the wear is dead center. That in itself takes practice.

[bermuda]

I dont think I can play like John Bonham but the drum sound.... any qualified recording engineer can achieve.

The sound certainly had as much to do with engineering, as did tuning, head type, shell size and material, and the player... combined. And while the sound is not hard to achieve (we got it easily for a snippet of Black Dog on our latest album,) remember that it was fairly groundbreaking when Led Zep hit, and is so closely identified with Bonham and the band, you wouldn't want to use it for anything anyway (unless you're Kingdom Clone... er, Kingdom Come, and ready to be labeled copycats!)

Bermuda

[Der Februar]

His TOUCH was what made the tone happen, he had his own way of playing that some can emulate, but no one can really duplicate as they are not HIM!!!
Maybe more importantly though is that you've only heard his drums on a recording, not in real life. I know that the tuning wouldn't sound too much different, but their would be more overtones and ambiance than in real life.

[Blue/Olive Badge]

One thing to remember about John's sound was the type of drums and heads he was using. Obviously there is a crucial element in how they were tuned but, if you don't have the right drums you are not going to get that sound.

I found this to be true with my vintage Tama Superstars. No matter what heads I used or how I tuned these drums they just always sounded dead to me. I was very frustrated for many years until I purchased my amber vistalites a just like that I had that Bonham sound.

[dwsabianguy]

I dont think I can play like John Bonham but the drum sound.... any qualified recording engineer can achieve.

Not necessarily. It helps to have a good engineer, but if the initial sound's not there, you're not going to get the end result without doing something drastic, like sampling or triggers. You can get pretty close, but not without some similar drums.

And as has been said, big drums make a big sound.

[Strangelove]

One thing to remember about John's sound was the type of drums and heads he was using. Obviously there is a crucial element in how they were tuned but, if you don't have the right drums you are not going to get that sound.

I found this to be true with my vintage Tama Superstars. No matter what heads I used or how I tuned these drums they just always sounded dead to me. I was very frustrated for many years until I purchased my amber vistalites a just like that I had that Bonham sound.


Maybe, but his studio set was wooden throughout every Zeppelin recording. His Vistas were only for concerts and only during the early to mid 1970's.

[Strangelove]

This tuning is neither original or secret, but has been used by jazz drummers for decades. Bonham was very jazz influenced, and he liked that sound. Combine that with large drums, his unique feel, and boom, classic rock god. .



Yes. I have also read interviews with Page and Plant where they mentioned that Bonzo (long before Ochletree) was particular of his drum tuning, and had Ludwig come in and tune his set for him. This was probably late 60's and early 70's. For those of you that were not playing back then, we pretty much tuned our kits the way of the big band drummers back then, which was a jazz tuning. They liked their toms and bass tuned higher so you could get faster stick/beater response on those blinding fast fills. So my bet is that Ludwig tuned his kit early on in the fashion of the big band drummers, and he kept that method throughout the rest of his life. I have always been hoping that some old Ludwig employee would jump up and tell us exactly how Bonzo tuned, since Ochletree seems so elusive on the subject. But my bet is that if you can find out about Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, or Louie Belson's tunings, you will probably get close enough to Bonzo's.

I personally never liked the sound of Bonzo's drums (his toms always sounded somewhat dead to me), while I idolized him as a drummer. I along with alot of other rock drummers of the 1970's eventually tuned my toms much lower, for more of that resonant thump and thud sound that studio engineers love so much these days.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

A few months ago Drum Magazine had an article on just this very thing, The Bonham sound.
I mailed it to one of our Forum members in Belgium because he was interested or I would quote the page, etc. It's out there for the taking.

[Strangelove]

Yes, I read it. He offered that he thought Bonham's tom resonants were tuned about 1/4 to 1/2 a turn tighter than his batters and his snare was tuned high with loose snares, but that was about all he went into tuning wise, besides citing it as a perpetual mystery that even Ochletree doesn't really address.

[Bonzology]

Hey all, I'm resurrecting an old unanswered.

Can anyone answer the original posters question on Bonzo's tuning?
No tech, or engineer got the Bonham sound. As a matter of fact no one has gotten the Bonham sound xcept Bonzo:) If you disagree, prove it with a link or mp3, words mean nothing:)

[thims]

...No tech, or engineer got the Bonham sound. As a matter of fact no one has gotten the Bonham sound xcept Bonzo:) If you disagree, prove it with a link or mp3, words mean nothing:)

I totally agree with this! I have never heard the sound Bonzo produced from anyone, but Bonzo. I will further add, it wasn't only the way the drums were tuned, there was some heavy sound engineering going on!

[toddbishop]

There's something kind of silver dot-y about his sound- I don't know if he ever actually recorded with Ludwig silver dot heads, but I'd fool around with those- particularly on the bass drum. The attack is a little harder than with the cs black dots.

[harryconway]

If you disagree, prove it with a link or mp3 .....

A mp3 ... or a sound bite .... please ... No, I disagree ... If you own the drums .... then you probably know how to tune them .... If you don't own the drums, then you're probably just here to argue .... words mean nothing:) ..... And they say "a picture is worth a thousand words" ...

[larryace]

I'm not buying into the notion that he had some secret tuning. It's not rocket science. That sound can be recreated easily enough, it's not mystical or anything. Big Ludwig drums, with coated emps over coated ambs, reso tuned higher than batter. Yes the tuning is critical but easy enough to duplicate. Hit the drums dead center with authority. There's your formula.

C'mon people he was just a guy like you and me.

[Bull]

I am a huge Bonham fan. His sound isn't magic. It's big drums tuned the way people used to tune big drums. To say that the engineering/production had nothing to do with it is like saying the 3rd and 4th albums have the same drum sound.

[thims]

What astounds me the most about Bonzo's sound was how uniquely engineered it was!
Everything was BIG! Big room, big high ceilings...dynamic range was huge. You couldn't possibly have produced it more PHAT!

[PQleyR]

This is a peculiar question. Being a big Bonham fan myself, I've worked long and hard on understanding how that sound worked. Remember that there was not one universal Bonham sound on every record. The tuning and micing on Led Zeppelin I is totally different to In Through The Out Door, or Led Zeppelin IV even. On later albums the tuning is overall much lower. As a general rule, tune quite high, and tune the resonant heads higher than the batter heads. Coated heads on wooden drums, or clear heads on a vistalite (there's another one...two radically different sounds that are still thought of as 'the Bonham sound'.

Simply put...tune higher than the lowest note the drum produces, and have the resonant head higher than the batter. The relationship between the two heads should be the point at which it sounds good to you. An LM402 will sound a lot more like Bonham than any other snare, because that's what he used. Again, the tuning varies wildly...listen to the snare on 'Good Times Bad Times' and then compare it with the snare on 'No Quarter' from Houses of the Holy...the 'No Quarter' snare is tuned considerably lower.

An unported bass drum is quite important for the bass drum sound but it can be approximated if the mic port isn't too big.

As far as micing goes...again, for the first album or two I think the kit was miced from above...one overhead, or a stereo mic. No spot mics usually (although live there were). Compression is an important part of the sound (but again, are we going for 'Whole Lotta Love', 'When The Levee Breaks' or 'All My Love'? A different amount would be required for each one). The drums for 'In Through The Out Door' were played back through a speaker in a stone room to add more reverb to the sound. That'll have had quite a big effect.

The only common factors throughout all of this are the size of the drums (14" or 15" mounted tom, 16" and 18" floor toms, 26" kick), and using overheads to get the main drum sound rather than spot mics. That's it.

[larryace]

I am amused with all the fanboy idolization of a drum tuning. IDK I think it's a fools journey to try and cop another's sound. In the end it all comes down to how you play your drums not the tuning. Let JB's sound RIP with him. Your emotion and energy is what you were given, don't throw that away in favor for what someone else was given. That's ungrateful.

[Bertram]

Im sure the right sizes will help ALOT. It wouldn't be physically possible to get the exact sound from his 14'' tom with a 10/12''. Im sure you can get pretty near, with some heavy tuning, with alot of precision and drum head selection.
I might have even got one of these Bonzo sounds out of my toms without noticing, and i maybe didn't like it at all, so i retuned. I tune my heads like said in here. Bottom tighter than top. I tune the bass drum until it feels and sounds good to me. I tune the snare until i can make ghostnotes without even touching the head (almost). I tune the snare until it sounds good to ME. That's is what i'd say the best method to tune. Tune until it sounds and feels good, to YOU. - Not Bonham..

[Bonzology]

I am amused with all the fanboy idolization of a drum tuning. IDK I think it's a fools journey to try and cop another's sound. In the end it all comes down to how you play your drums not the tuning. Let JB's sound RIP with him. Your emotion and energy is what you were given, don't throw that away in favor for what someone else was given. That's ungrateful.

With all due respect

Thanx for the condescending sermon. Here's a reply from a "fanboy" Drums are either tuned or not tuned. Bonham tuned his drums extremely well and to try to emulate that is simply smart and a good learning experience. I guess by your standard, we should never play along with our favorite records, and put down the books cause we'd be "coping" another. To dismiss, and not learn and evolve from what our predecessors accomplished, would be "ungrateful" That was a foolish insulting post to say the least. Post up your sound and playing, see if it stands up to Bonzo's. Until then, don't judge people working on their craft the way they see fit

[Bonzology]

A mp3 ... or a sound bite .... please ... No, I disagree ... If you own the drums .... then you probably know how to tune them .... If you don't own the drums, then you're probably just here to argue .... And they say "a picture is worth a thousand words" ...

I love that quote at the bottom, I've been saying that for years " I feel more like i do now than i did when i first got here" also try "It's colder in the summer than it is in the country":)

Nice kit, I built my own drums to extremely exacting specs. But a picture is worth nothing. A sound clip or some form of media with proof of "sound" is what i'm saying. A million guys have Bonzo sizes and not much more:)

[Bonzology]

Im sure the right sizes will help ALOT. It wouldn't be physically possible to get the exact sound from his 14'' tom with a 10/12''. Im sure you can get pretty near, with some heavy tuning, with alot of precision and drum head selection.
I might have even got one of these Bonzo sounds out of my toms without noticing, and i maybe didn't like it at all, so i retuned. I tune my heads like said in here. Bottom tighter than top. I tune the bass drum until it feels and sounds good to me. I tune the snare until i can make ghostnotes without even touching the head (almost). I tune the snare until it sounds good to ME. That's is what i'd say the best method to tune. Tune until it sounds and feels good, to YOU. - Not Bonham..

Does it matter to you that that wasn't the question? Why do people feel the need to talk people out of what they're interested in????? Geeezzz

[Bonzology]

I am a huge Bonham fan. His sound isn't magic. It's big drums tuned the way people used to tune big drums. To say that the engineering/production had nothing to do with it is like saying the 3rd and 4th albums have the same drum sound.

What you speak of is nuance. Bonzo sounds like Bonzo on every album. Once again no specifics on tuning??? what is it with you guys?

[cdrums21]

I have a 1970 Ludwig green sparkle kit identical to the one in Jeff Ocheltree's video.
I tune it like I tune all my drums, which is resonant side higher than batter side, but.... this particular kit is a different animal and requires a slightly different approach. Because they are big drums and the shell construction is 3 ply maple/poplar/maple, the drums sound better tuned a bit higher in pitch than modern drums. They don't sound good at JAW tuning, they need to be tensioned up to resonate and create that big sound. It's big and boomy, but with the bottom head higher in pitch, which is about a third higher on my kit, it is a controlled boom. The kick drum isn't thuddy..it's boomy too, but it sounds awesome, big and powerful. The whole kit has that vintage bonzo big boomy vibe, and is totally different than my DW's. I think if you want that Bonham type of sound from your kit, you gotta have larger drums tuned up a little higher, the correct heads and expect it to be a different animal that may not be appropriate for today's music.

[Bertram]

Does it matter to you that that wasn't the question? Why do people feel the need to talk people out of what they're interested in????? Geeezzz

I read the whole thread, so I know that what I wrote was not an answer to the given question. Im not trying to talk him away from Bonham or the style he likes or anything like that. I just think it's important to find the sound YOU want and not your friend or Bonham in this case. Besides, everything i could give the guy for an answer was already posted in here a thousand times. So I really just wrote what i felt about this whole subject of an idol and everything.

[Bertram]

With all due respect

With all my respect sir. I'd suggest you stop writing these offensive posts. We didn't harm, Insult or threaten you in any way, and still you enter this defensive stance where you keep tell us that we're wrong, and write this posts. I scrolled down a little, and then I see you did this three times? And you ask what's wrong with us! May I ask what the heck that's wrong with you?

[Bonzology]

With all my respect sir. I'd suggest you stop writing these offensive posts. We didn't harm, Insult or threaten you in any way, and still you enter this defensive stance where you keep tell us that we're wrong, and write this posts. I scrolled down a little, and then I see you did this three times? And you ask what's wrong with us! May I ask what the heck that's wrong with you?

That one post was offensive to anyone who asks a question. No offense intended to you or any other, I'm not looking for a fight. Sometimes the written word can imply emotion not intended. I appreciate advise from u and others, it's just frustrating to read through an entire thread to find IMO little pertinent or thoughtful input, mostly just detractors and nay sayers. why bother responding if you have nothing constructive to add? It's not good for anyone. The questions are about Bonzo's tuning...Period. And I may have missed it, but i found no good answers.

Thanx and (water boy voice) "lets be friends"

[Bonzology]

I just read through my posts, i kinda sound like a dick:( Sorry, that was not my intention, just quick writing and sarcasm gone wrong. That 1st reply was dead on though, dude was thumbing the nose big time

[Bertram]

It's no problem :) (20 characters)

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

What you speak of is nuance. Bonzo sounds like Bonzo on every album. Once again no specifics on tuning??? what is it with you guys?

Man....what a prick!!

Yes Bonzo sounds like Bonzo on every album. That much I agree with. Bonzo sounded like Bonzo everytime he played his drums.....purely because he WAS Bonzo.

That aside....his "nuance" has very little to do with the fact that you can't also achieve the same head tensions (or at least extrememly close) as he did. Using coated Emps over coated Ambs on drums of the same size you're going to be as close as you're ever gonna get. Why not play around with the information you already have? Aim to get close enough to the recordings and then run your own drum dial over the things and come back and tell US the numbers?

Of course there's no specifics on tuning. The man is dead.....he curled the toes up back in 1980 and his "ear" for tuning was buried in the box with him. All we've got is a couple of references of how he liked his drums tuned. Specific drum dial numbers weren't available then....and clearly they are not available now. Why not get off your lazy arse and try to figure this one out yourself, instead of sitting there in an ivory tower taking pot shots at everyone?

Your attitude stinks! You can't figure something out, so you'll insult everyone who can't figure it out either. If you really wanna invoke the spirit of JHB, then do it the same way he did......trial and error!

Whatever you end up doing, adjust your friggen' attitude while you're there.

[Bonzology]

Man....what a prick!!

Yes Bonzo sounds like Bonzo on every album. That much I agree with. Bonzo sounded like Bonzo everytime he played his drums.....purely because he WAS Bonzo.

That aside....his "nuance" has very little to do with the fact that you can't also achieve the same head tensions (or at least extrememly close) as he did. Using coated Emps over coated Ambs on drums of the same size you're going to be as close as you're ever gonna get. Why not play around with the information you already have? Aim to get close enough to the recordings and then run your own drum dial over the things and come back and tell US the numbers?

Of course there's no specifics on tuning. The man is dead.....he curled the toes up back in 1980 and his "ear" for tuning was buried in the box with him. All we've got is a couple of references of how he liked his drums tuned. Specific drum dial numbers weren't available then....and clearly they are not available now. Why not get off your lazy arse and try to figure this one out yourself, instead of sitting there in an ivory tower taking pot shots at everyone?

Your attitude stinks! You can't figure something out, so you'll insult everyone who can't figure it out either. If you really wanna invoke the spirit of JHB, then do it the same way he did......trial and error!

Whatever you end up doing, adjust your friggen' attitude while you're there.

Dude, read post #41 and relax. I wasn't paying attention as I was writing, I came off as a prick and i apologized for it. K

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Dude, read post #41 and relax. I wasn't paying attention as I was writing, I came off as a prick and i apologized for it. K

So you did....wow, who knew?

My apologies...that little skerrick must have been lost amongst the other half a dozen posts of insults and diatribe.

[Bonzology]

So you did....wow, who knew?

My apologies...that little skerrick must have been lost amongst the other half a dozen posts of insults and diatribe.

Yeah i had a bad run, once again my apologies to anyone offended as that wasnt' my intention. I know i'm not goning to play as great as Bonzo, but I have been working really hard on getting that sound on some recordings, it is really bizare the way the drums need to sound at the kit versus the way they sound out front. They boing like hell and kinda choke off when ur in the seat, but through the mics they sound big, toney and close to right. I'm using 4 mics, I tried the glyn johns thing without much success. Now I'm still using 4 mics, 1 overhead high, 1 room, both through tube pre's, a kick, and snare for back up. It seems that I only need the over and room though??? tiny bit of eq, then send it through an 1176 and.......your still not close! Ha! just kidding, sounds real good, but not great.....yet:) I believe it's in the tuning, plus the cymbs, hats to drum balance is a pain. I am sooooo burned on tuning and moving mics. Thats probably why i wrote like such an ass on previous posts.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Ok...let's start again then.

There are no specific drum dial numbers available from the man himself, purely because he didn't use one. Even if they were available back then it's unlikely he would have known his own numbers any way. I certainly don't and I'm sure many of us who tune by ear/feel wouldn't either. What we do have though, is 9 studio albums, numerous youtube clips and the Ocheltree vid. Referring back to all these sources and employing a bit of old fashioned trial and error, you should be able to get a sound exceptionally close to the way Bonham's kit sounded....assuming you're using 3 ply shells in the same specs. with Emps over Ambs.

All you can do is aim to replicate the tunings you hear and then run a dial over it yourself. Until someone who has already done this shows up, it's all that can be done. It's worth noting someone may just do that....the revived thread is only a couple of days old. Give 'em time.

As for the recorded sound. No-one has mentioned the most important factor. Who produced all Zepp albums? Page is the key here. He was a studio veteran prior to forming the band and was right at home in this environment. The room micing techniques were as much Page's doing as Glynn Johns. They swapped and changed studio engineers often. This was a calculated move on Page's behalf to prove to himself that "he" captured the Zepp sound....not an engineer. He's openly stated this. He's also spoken about many of these techniques at length. It's out there if you search for it. But knowing Jimmy's method will be a hell of a lot more viable to you than any of the engineers.

To get these sounds on tape, you've gotta combine both. Tune as close to Bonham as you can get....not difficult, trial and error will get you close to the way his kit sounded. And for studio techniques.....read up on the way Page did it....he's the key. After getting these two elements duplicated....any discrepancy in sound you're getting will come down to the fact that you don't have John Bonham playing them. And unfortunately, there ain't a hell of a lot that can be done to fix that problem. :-)

[harryconway]

Nice kitThanks ... I built my own drums to extremely exacting specs. But a picture is worth nothing. So along those lines of thinking, you've brought "nothing to the table ... A sound clip or some form of media with proof of "sound" is what i'm saying. A million guys have Bonzo sizes and not much more:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03mGRXHbn_M Here's a cat who seems to have the "Bonzo" sound dialed in, pretty fair ....

[aydee]

...


The larger point is that the answer lies in Bonzo sizes/ big drums with slighly higher tuning. ( I think CDrums and PFG covered that ).

But isnt the sound in the fingers, guys?


Havent we all seen great players pick up a beat up old no name instrument and when they play it sounds fantastic?..

I occassionally play in a little bar that officially has the crappiest house gear that exists on the planet. Its from the neolithic age. One night, a touring Aussie band ( Aurora Jane ) drop in and decide to jam and it felt like someone had magically changed the kit, the amps, the PA etc...

Conversely, I've picked up and noodled on Anthony Jackson's 6 string bass and it sounded like a mandolin - utterly horrible in my hands..

I think that is the point Larry was trying to make. You could tune a drum exactly like JB does, but when you strike it with a stick, it will sound nothing like Bonham because you cant cop his velocity, his angle of attack, the torque of his wrist, the timing of the hit, or the feeling that he played with.

...or for that matter hire the sound engineer he used to record his drums.


...

[tamadrm]

This is true of any drummer,its not just tuning.Its how you hit the drums,where you hit them,the sticks you use also have a huge impact(pun intended)on your drums sound.If it makes anyone feel any better...why not just tune to the way you like,and imagine Bonzo or anybody else trying to cop your sound?

The only guy that really came so close that I actually thought it was Bonham,was Mike Dolbear who played with Heart in the 70's.Really close to that Bonzo sound.Listen to" Barracuda",and you'll see what I mean.

We all approach our instrument differently,we are all individuals and therefore will sound just a little,if not a lot different,from everybody else.......and thank the universe for that.

Steve B

[Bonzology]

Thanks ... So along those lines of thinking, you've brought "nothing to the table ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03mGRXHbn_M Here's a cat who seems to have the "Bonzo" sound dialed in, pretty fair ....

Hey conway, You're correct sir, i've brought nothing to the table, xcept getting some peeps mad at me.:0 I'm trying to dial that sound now, i will post up a clip when i'm as close as i'm gonna get, that link is quite "roomy" sounding. Thanx for that

[Bonzology]

...


The larger point is that the answer lies in Bonzo sizes/ big drums with slighly higher tuning. ( I think CDrums and PFG covered that ).

But isnt the sound in the fingers, guys?


Havent we all seen great players pick up a beat up old no name instrument and when they play it sounds fantastic?..

I occassionally play in a little bar that officially has the crappiest house gear that exists on the planet. Its from the neolithic age. One night, a touring Aussie band ( Aurora Jane ) drop in and decide to jam and it felt like someone had magically changed the kit, the amps, the PA etc...

Conversely, I've picked up and noodled on Anthony Jackson's 6 string bass and it sounded like a mandolin - utterly horrible in my hands..

I think that is the point Larry was trying to make. You could tune a drum exactly like JB does, but when you strike it with a stick, it will sound nothing like Bonham because you cant cop his velocity, his angle of attack, the torque of his wrist, the timing of the hit, or the feeling that he played with.

...or for that matter hire the sound engineer he used to record his drums.


...

I witnessed the mighty Jeff Beck pic up a guitar in a music store and proceed to kill it! Then after he left someone else picked it up and it was wildly out of tune! didn't matter in the hands of a master. your point is a good one. well played sir

[Bonzology]

This is true of any drummer,its not just tuning.Its how you hit the drums,where you hit them,the sticks you use also have a huge impact(pun intended)on your drums sound.If it makes anyone feel any better...why not just tune to the way you like,and imagine Bonzo or anybody else trying to cop your sound?

The only guy that really came so close that I actually thought it was Bonham,was Mike Dolbear who played with Heart in the 70's.Really close to that Bonzo sound.Listen to" Barracuda",and you'll see what I mean.

We all approach our instrument differently,we are all individuals and therefore will sound just a little,if not a lot different,from everybody else.......and thank the universe for that.

Steve B

Hey Steve, On my current project, the goal is to get as close to that "Bonzo" vibe as possible, that's why i've been such a pain in the ass;) I'll post up a mp3 when i'm done so you guys can Sllllllllllllllllayyyyyyy me!!

[Bertram]

I saw this "Joedrummer" on youtube, who played different songs from Bonham, check him out, he did a tuning video too. My net is too crappy too see it, but they sound a little like his drums. Especially the snare, and toms. Bass is a little too crappy ....

[harryconway]

Hey conway, You're correct sir, i've brought nothing to the table, xcept getting some peeps mad at me.:0 I'm trying to dial that sound now, i will post up a clip when i'm as close as i'm gonna get, that link is quite "roomy" sounding. Thanx for that
Without "posting" anything .... no picture of your kit, not to mention, no brand name ... or sizes ... and asking one of the most "generic" questions found on any drum forum .... you get what you get ... The link I posted, a song from Detective ... a band from 1977 ... Jon Hyde played a Bonzo kit. The band was signed to Swan Song ... Led Zeppelin's record label after their contract with Atlantic ended, in 1973 ... I went to the Troubadour show/showcase that Detective played when Page/Plant were "upstairs" ... behind the tinted glass ...
So, this band, on Zeppelin's record label, under the watchful eye of Page/Plant and Peter Grant ... as far as sound goes ... the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. As far as your project goes ... good luck with that .... if you're close, that's probably as good as your gonna get. Chasing someone else's sound is kinda like chasing ghosts ... especially "recorded" sound .... with Zep putting out 9 studio albums, it also becomes a matter of which Bonzo drum sound off of which album ... and what song ... But first, and foremost, I'd say, is ya gotta have the "big drums". I have 4 acoustic kits. My Gretsch round badge (20, 13. 16) I wouldn't ask them to sound like a "Bonham" kit. Neither would I ask my Yamaha RC's to (22, 12, 13, 14) .... or my Brazilian RMV kit. But my Luddies, more than up for the task .... because they're the "right drums for the job".

[Bonzology]

[QUOTE=harryconway;873506][INDENT]Without "posting" anything .... no picture of your kit, not to mention, no brand name ... or sizes ... and asking one of the most "generic" questions found on any drum forum .... you get what you get ...

I'm using emperor over ambass coated on all cept snare bottom isn't 12x14 rack, 16x16 floor, 16x18 floor, 26x14 kick, Custom built 5ply maple with round over outside/30 degree inside bearing edges, surpraphonic 6.5x14, giant beat 15" HH, gb 24"ride, gb 18,20 crashes and 2002 17,19 crashes that i'm layin off of. Kick and toms are there, the snare(new to me) has been the biggest pain, It was dropping tension rods out of the lugs, so went to the nylon locks. I hit hard, but with solid technique(not a basher, but rimshots all day long) It's a converted super sensitive....I wonder if the extra holes from removed center rod are giving me too much venting? or maybe when the lugs dropped out, my bottom head got weird....I think i'm gonna switch out the heads tmrw? anyway, let me know if you got any ideas...and thanx

[con struct]

I know this isn't in any way helpful or even relevant to the topic of this thread, really, but it strikes me, Bonzology, that you might give some thought to changing your user name. I mean, for a "Bonzologist" you're rather lacking.

Or as Monty Python said, "It isn't much of a cheese shop, is it?"

[harryconway]

I'm using emperor over ambass coated on all cept snare bottom isn't 12x14 rack, 16x16 floor, 16x18 floor, 26x14 kick, Custom built 5ply maple with round over outside/30 degree inside bearing edges... Well, of course, Bonham played Ludwig 3 ply shells (for studio drums) ... but you say you're happy with the sound of your kick and toms .... so .... I'm happy that you're happy .... surpraphonic 6.5x14, giant beat 15" HH, gb 24"ride, gb 18,20 crashes and 2002 17,19 crashes that i'm layin off of. Kick and toms are there, the snare(new to me) has been the biggest pain.... So ... all this angst stems from the fact that you're unhappy with your snare sound. 'fraid I can't help you there, I've never owned a Supra ... I've got 6 snares right now ... and I've never tried to copy "anyone's" particular snare sound ... but Youtube has quite a few video's on how to tune a snare, for a Bonham sound.
Then, recording .... Eddie Kramer refers to using Shure SM57s, Neumann U67s and U87s, AKG C12s and ElectroVoice RE20s .... are you using any of those mics? Anyhow, back to your original post .... Hey all, I'm resurrecting an old unanswered.

Can anyone answer the original posters question on Bonzo's tuning?
No tech, or engineer got the Bonham sound. As a matter of fact no one has gotten the Bonham sound xcept Bonzo:) If you disagree, prove it with a link or mp3, words mean nothing:)The OP refers to kick and toms (not snare) .... you seem happy with your kick and tom sound ... and so, in essence, contradict yourself. " As a matter of fact no one has gotten the Bonham sound xcept Bonzo" .... well, you say you do, except the snare .... so, is it one, or the other? Or maybe you're just here to troll about the forum, which is fine too, I guess ... we've had our share of those, too ...

[Bonzology]

I know this isn't in any way helpful or even relevant to the topic of this thread, really, but it strikes me, Bonzology, that you might give some thought to changing your user name. I mean, for a "Bonzologist" you're rather lacking.

Or as Monty Python said, "It isn't much of a cheese shop, is it?"

Thanx :/, just a huge fan and trying to collect as much info as possible.

[Bonzology]

Well, of course, Bonham played Ludwig 3 ply shells (for studio drums) ... but you say you're happy with the sound of your kick and toms .... so .... I'm happy that you're happy .... So ... all this angst stems from the fact that you're unhappy with your snare sound. 'fraid I can't help you there, I've never owned a Supra ... I've got 6 snares right now ... and I've never tried to copy "anyone's" particular snare sound ... but Youtube has quite a few video's on how to tune a snare, for a Bonham sound.
Then, recording .... Eddie Kramer refers to using Shure SM57s, Neumann U67s and U87s, AKG C12s and ElectroVoice RE20s .... are you using any of those mics? Anyhow, back to your original post .... The OP refers to kick and toms (not snare) .... you seem happy with your kick and tom sound ... and so, in essence, contradict yourself. " As a matter of fact no one has gotten the Bonham sound xcept Bonzo" .... well, you say you do, except the snare .... so, is it one, or the other? Or maybe you're just here to troll about the forum, which is fine too, I guess ... we've had our share of those, too ...

I though we were done with that?
I am using great mics on the kit, Ev re20 on the kick, a single neumann overhead(yes 1 over) 414 and 57 on the snare(so far unused)and a telefunken in the room along with (so far unused)various safety mics. And what i meant in the last post was, after infinite tune tinkering and mic selection/ placement over a few days, I'm now happy with the kick and toms, the snare is hassling me, I think the reso is giving out. I'm not here to bicker, I have 1 week, and I'm trying to get it done the best i can. I stand by the statement no one has gotten his sound, that includes myself. I periodically check back here to see if anyone has thrown me a gem and all I get is pop shots and an inquisition? I mean, posting #57....Really? I don't know how many posts, and no one has mentioned the C# pitch that bonhams snare seems to emit? I'll check back again on the outside chance someone may have a helpful thought

[PQleyR]

Hmm. In the words of the Famous Eccles...there's something funny going on here folks.

[Ian Williams]

It's all about ears and feel...

[tamadrm]

[QUOTE=harryconway;873506][INDENT]Without "posting" anything .... no picture of your kit, not to mention, no brand name ... or sizes ... and asking one of the most "generic" questions found on any drum forum .... you get what you get ...

I'm using emperor over ambass coated on all cept snare bottom isn't 12x14 rack, 16x16 floor, 16x18 floor, 26x14 kick, Custom built 5ply maple with round over outside/30 degree inside bearing edges, surpraphonic 6.5x14, giant beat 15" HH, gb 24"ride, gb 18,20 crashes and 2002 17,19 crashes that i'm layin off of. Kick and toms are there, the snare(new to me) has been the biggest pain, It was dropping tension rods out of the lugs, so went to the nylon locks. I hit hard, but with solid technique(not a basher, but rimshots all day long) It's a converted super sensitive....I wonder if the extra holes from removed center rod are giving me too much venting? or maybe when the lugs dropped out, my bottom head got weird....I think i'm gonna switch out the heads tmrw? anyway, let me know if you got any ideas...and thanx
I don't know if you know but all of Bonzo's wood shelled Ludwigs were 3 ply with rerings.Pretty thin shells.His Maple kit was probably maple/mahogany/maple,and his green sparkle was all maple....but again...3 thin plys.And if your trying for the first Zep drum sound....better get some Slingerlands,because thats what he used till mid 69 when he got his maple Ludwig double bass set a la Carmine Appice.There is a photo of Bonzo behind his Slingys on the DFO forum.

Steve B

[Spectron]

IMHO - it's cool to go for a "bozo-ish" sound but to try to duplicate
every nuance as heard on Zep albums all the way down to 3ply this or that
c# snare sound etc....

well, it's just not that fruitful in the big picture....if you know what I mean.

in fact..unless you're music , gtr tone, style, arrangment etc...is total Zepplin knock-off
then it is a waste of time IMO.

I can get bonzo-ish tones from my entry level 5pc kit:
Coated emperors, wide open kick sound, similar tuning etc....
and with some of the mentioned recording techniques I can even get recorded sounds that resemble that tone
and with my giant beat cymbals - it's good enough for me

in my mind there's no need to get THAT obsessive it unless you're putting out a drum sample library intended to cop the "zep kit"

which, by the way Steven slate has done "SSD" Steven Slate drums" has a "zep kit"

he went all out in capturing those tones like renting a stone castle in the hollywood hills so he could place his room mics way up a stairwell, auditioning and finding a drummer that plays like Bonham all the way down to recording to 2" tape....

SSD - "Zep kit" look it up

with drum replacement software those tones could be yours!

[audiotech]

I though we were done with that?
I am using great mics on the kit, Ev re20 on the kick, a single neumann overhead(yes 1 over) 414 and 57 on the snare(so far unused)and a telefunken in the room along with (so far unused)various safety mics. And what i meant in the last post was, after infinite tune tinkering and mic selection/ placement over a few days, I'm now happy with the kick and toms, the snare is hassling me, I think the reso is giving out. I'm not here to bicker, I have 1 week, and I'm trying to get it done the best i can. I stand by the statement no one has gotten his sound, that includes myself. I periodically check back here to see if anyone has thrown me a gem and all I get is pop shots and an inquisition? I mean, posting #57....Really? I don't know how many posts, and no one has mentioned the C# pitch that bonhams snare seems to emit? I'll check back again on the outside chance someone may have a helpful thought

This is very interesting, to say the least.

Dennis

[Ethan01]

I always find it hilarious when drummers come in critiquing "oh, why would you try to sound like Bonham, be original!" all the while they try to play, sound, and tune like Gavin Harrison, Purdie, Weckl, Vinnie, or any number of professional drummers out there! Learn who your paying audience is, here's a hint, it's not those close-minded drummers harping about originality. And if anyone ever gives you s--- about playing a "Bonham" kit, let them know that Jimmy Page wasn't the only legend who played a Les Paul (Sunburst either!)

As to the OP, like millions have already stated, only Bonham sounded like Bonham. Want proof? Listen to his playing using a wood kit, then his acrylic one. It's the same feel, groove, and fills he leaned towards. So, using two different kits with different heads and different tuning (only snare was the same), you get one guy who sounds the same. It really goes beyond what kit you use, your heads, your cymbals, etc. Bonham sounded like Bonham in SPITE of what kit he played! Recording techniques count even less in my book. He played in all sorts of different sized studios with different mic arrangements. In Led Zeppelin I he used a 13-16-24 kit, and what I honestly believe was a 14x5 supraphonic (not the 6.5" he's known for), and it's still sounded big! My favorite Zep song btw is the first track off the first record, "Good Times, Bad Times."

For the guys and gals who claimed to capture his sound on recordings, I'd love to hear those examples. Bonham was the sloppiest tight-player I've ever heard, and I'd love to hear / understand how you captured that.

[Ian Williams]

The question is: What Would John Bonham Do? Can you match that Bonham Feel?

In terms of "technique" you might play like Bonham but in terms of "feel" - I doubt it!
His ringing true and heavy in addition of his swinging right arm on the ride, are awesome and something else...

[harryconway]

I don't know if you know but all of Bonzo's wood shelled Ludwigs were 3 ply with rerings.Pretty thin shells.His Maple kit was probably maple/mahogany/maple,and his green sparkle was all maple...

Ludwig, from 63-68, shells were mahogany, poplar, maple .... Ludwig, from 68-75 (thereabouts), shells were, maple, poplar, maple... 76 was when Ludwig switched to the 6 ply shell (but still maple-poplar mix)The first "all maple" shell, was the Rogers XP-8 shell, which came out in 1978. The Appice/Bonham hook-up happened during Zepps 1st tour, where they supported Vanilla Fudge. All the wood kits, were 3 ply, maple, poplar, maple shells.