Accessing the floor tom?

[sciomako]

Hi,

Which is the proper way to access the floor tom:

(1) minimize the upper torso movement and move the arms mainly; or,

(2) turn the upper torso to the right

I tried the former approach. I noticed I need to pull back my right elbow a lot. After practicing full bar 16th fills/rolls across the kit (i.e. snare -> tom1 -> tom2 -> floor tom) for a while, I found my upper back muscle tensed up. The next morning I had upper back pain...

[larryace]

Never really considered it, but common sense dictates economy of motion, however that is achieved. I probably twist my torso slightly, but it's mainly my arms.

[MattRitter]

There's a motion that many of us use when reaching for the floor tom. It's basically for the right hand only (assuming the floor tom is to the right). I'll try to explain it in writing, which might be a bit difficult. I'm sure most of the guys on here will know what I'm talking about so you're sure to get further descriptions.

You start with your right stick above the snare drum and your right hand in German position (palm facing down). From there, you rotate your forearm to the right and bend your wrist back so that you end up in French position (thumb on top) with the stick over the floor tom. While doing this, the elbow moves further in against the side of your body. The stick almost makes a windshield wiper movement as it goes from the snare to the floor tom very effectively without requiring any twist of the body. Now...if you need to move BOTH hands to the floor tom, it's a bit more complicated. The right hand does exactly as I described, but the left hand stays in German. In this case, the body does twist to the right a bit. What I'm describing here is just one of numerous ways to efficiently reach the floor tom. Try it out. If you find it helpful, add it to your bag of tricks.

Best of luck!

[oops]

That's an interesting point. Watching Jojo's DVD I noticed he changes grip constantly, depending on what surface he's playing (snare, ride etc) and where it's located.

[Ian Ballard]

Sitting on your throne and doing some nice, relaxed, natural air drumming is a good way to find ergonomic areas of movement for your body. You can't always put the drums exactly where your natural movements dictate, but you can get them close.

I like to use Buddy Rich as a drum placement example. All of his drums were positioned in such a way, to reduce his body movement. His arms and hands did the work and the drums were exactly where his hands naturally ended up, so he was not working against the laws of physics at all.

You should be able to do tom crossovers and all kinds of wild stuff without moving your body too much. Lots of drummers have suffered back problems because of "twisting" whilst playing.

[sciomako]

You start with your right stick above the snare drum and your right hand in German position (palm facing down). From there, you rotate your forearm to the right and bend your wrist back so that you end up in French position (thumb on top) with the stick over the floor tom. While doing this, the elbow moves further in against the side of your body. The stick almost makes a windshield wiper movement as it goes from the snare to the floor tom very effectively without requiring any twist of the body.

Hi Matt,

I think I understanding what you're describing. So, basically, I don't pull my elbow back beyond my body. Instead, I tug the elbow closer to my hip (and switch to French grip). Is that right? If so, doesn't it mean I can't use my upper arm at all on the floor tom? e.g. I can't do a full moeller on tom floor in this position.

[MattRitter]

Hi Matt,

I think I understanding what you're describing. So, basically, I don't pull my elbow back beyond my body. Instead, I tug the elbow closer to my hip (and switch to French grip). Is that right? If so, doesn't it mean I can't use my upper arm at all on the floor tom? e.g. I can't do a full moeller on tom floor in this position.

Hi, Sciomako

Yes, I think you understood my description...and yes, I think it probably would be difficult to do a full Moeller on the floor tom from this position. On the other hand, Moeller CAN be done from the French position, so it might still be possible. In any case, remember that what I described is not the only way to get to the floor tom. You could also just stay in German grip and move your arm over there. I don't find this to be as fast or as comfortable, but it's an option as well. By the way, the motion I described also works well for getting to the ride cymbal...which is often on the right side of the kit near the floor tom.

I hope this helps.

[larryace]

I think Matt's suggestion is best utilized when you have a few quick hits on the floor tom, but if you need to camp out there awhile, and play say Sing Sing Sing or something, then a torso twist is probably necessary so you can do those Moellers. But for a few quick whacks on the floors, his suggestion is a perfect example of economy of motion.

[MattRitter]

I think Matt's suggestion is best utilized when you have a few quick hits on the floor tom, but if you need to camp out there awhile, and play say Sing Sing Sing or something, then a torso twist is probably necessary so you can do those Moellers. But for a few quick whacks on the floors, his suggestion is a perfect example of economy of motion.

I absolutely agree. For something like "Sing Sing Sing," I would NOT use the motion I previously described. Thanks, Larryace!

[Jeff Almeyda]

I agree with what has been said here both about the occassional hit and for the "sing,sing, sing" motion.

Key to any motion on the kit is maintaining balance and proper posture. Remember to keep both feet on the floor and keep your connection to the ground (through your feet and your butt on the seat) strong.

Also, remember that most people overdo their motions and use much more tension and many more muscle groups than necessary. Be fluid in your motions and minimize the use of brute force to get things done.

[sciomako]

By the way, the motion I described also works well for getting to the ride cymbal...which is often on the right side of the kit near the floor tom.


I do use French grip on ride but had never thought of using it on the floor tom. I gave it a try last night. Yes! It worked well. The strokes felt more natural. Now I need to see if I can get used to German grip on left and French grip on right and do the grip switch smoothly. :-)

Also, remember that most people overdo their motions and use much more tension and many more muscle groups than necessary.

Yeah, I am aware of this issue too. I noticed when I get excited in the fills, I would start using my upper arms and shoulders in places where I could've used just my wrists and lower arms. Apparently the arms are not as agile as the wrists and I got inconsistent sticking.

play say Sing Sing Sing or something

Sorry, what's "Sing Sing Sing"?

[caddywumpus]

Sorry, what's "Sing Sing Sing"?

...only the first of two very important songs that pushed the drums into the forefront of pop culture, the second being Ringo playing on TV and that whole "Beatles" phenomenon that followed. Here's a video of Sing Sing Sing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJ4dpNal_k

Also, when if you want to use big motions of your arms to be more visually stunning as a drummer, try setting your floor tom a little bit further to the right so that your right elbow doesn't have to go behind your back during your stroke...

[TheMarkV]

yeah its always best to suit your drum set to yourself. it should be totally customized to be as comfortable as possible for you to play it with little to no problem. so maybe move it out a little bit to the right, or find a way to have it a little more in front of you than where it is now. also just try not to think about how you are turning necessarily unless it continues to be a problem. by this i mean, don't think about what you are doing at all, instead just let it all happen naturally. drums are supposed to be totally natural when all is said and done for the most part.
im sure something will fall into place eventually and you will find your sweet spot for everything.

[zambizzi]

Yes, I think you understood my description...and yes, I think it probably would be difficult to do a full Moeller on the floor tom from this position. On the other hand, Moeller CAN be done from the French position

ha HA! CAUGHT you!

What you described is how I hit my floor tom. Basically, I transition to French Grip for anything that far on the right side of my kit, including my ride. My right hand goes back to German Grip when coming back to the snare or anything else in front or to the left of me.

So, +1 for French Grip here.

[British Boy]

Billy Ward says there's nothing at all wrong with swivelling your hips.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Because of the circumference of my waist I have to turn my stool or hips a bit. God forbid I would try to use two floor toms. That would require injury producing gyrations that would be quite ugly to explain. Like most other things we do here, whatever feels comfortable and allows you to keep your balance.

[sciomako]

Billy Ward says there's nothing at all wrong with swivelling your hips.

I actually watched Billy Ward's DVD carefully last night. I noticed he also switched to French grip and swiveled the body a bit, although he didn't explain explicitly what he was doing.

[trkdrmr]

I use a 14/16 floor tom.

There are three ways to position them (at least)

1. Tandem: One next to kick, one right behind it.
-- This makes the circumferal distance around the kit longest, needing the most turning to reach.

2. Parallel: Side to side Steve Smith and Todd Sucharman do this
-- This alleviates the turn, but may place the 2nd tom too far away for some people

3. Left and Right. One tom gives the left hand a low voice.
-- This places toms in proximity, the least reaching required. The downside is that some people may have to adjust where they are used to linear arrangement.

I use a slightly parallel setup. It conserves motion.

[MattRitter]

ha HA! CAUGHT you!

What you described is how I hit my floor tom. Basically, I transition to French Grip for anything that far on the right side of my kit, including my ride. My right hand goes back to German Grip when coming back to the snare or anything else in front or to the left of me.

So, +1 for French Grip here.

Zambizzi! Every time I post something, you end up revealing that you use a similar approach. I'm beginning to feel like you must be stalking me to steal my drumming secrets. From now on, I'm gonna be looking over my shoulder a bit more! hahaha

Good to hear from you as always!

[MattRitter]

On the topic of "Sing Sing Sing"...

After we talked about sticking with German for something like that song, I had a memory flash of seeing Gene himself use French when playing it! I just checked YouTube, and sure enough, it looks like Gene is playing French or very close to it. Pretty ironic! hahaha

[zambizzi]

Zambizzi! Every time I post something, you end up revealing that you use a similar approach. I'm beginning to feel like you must be stalking me to steal my drumming secrets. From now on, I'm gonna be looking over my shoulder a bit more! hahaha

Good to hear from you as always!

Heh...by "caught you" I was referring to the whole argument we had going a while back over Moeller. If you'll remember, I mentioned that I used a Moeller motion on the ride in French Grip and you (and others) pimp-slapped me over calling it "Moeller", since it was French Grip.

Anyhow, old news...I just wanted to rub your nose in it a bit :P

I learned this by watching the greats...it sounds like we're both emulating the same great drummers! Someone mentioned Jojo earlier - he definitely contributed to my Frenchiness.

sciomako - I saw that video too but I'm pretty sure at some point he actually points out that he swivels his lower-back to reach his toms. I don't like that approach, personally.

[MattRitter]

Heh...by "caught you" I was referring to the whole argument we had going a while back over Moeller. If you'll remember, I mentioned that I used a Moeller motion on the ride in French Grip and you (and others) pimp-slapped me over calling it "Moeller", since it was French Grip.

Anyhow, old news...I just wanted to rub your nose in it a bit :P


Good memory! I had forgotten about that. You're totally right! hahaha

For those who didn't see the previous thread mentioned by Zambizzi...
I pointed out that Jim Chapin was Sanford Moeller's best student, and yet Jim states in his video that French grip is somewhat new to him. So, I take that to mean that Moeller never actually taught French grip. With this in mind, I'm not sure it's respectful to use Moeller's name in relation to something with French grip. After all, "Moeller" is not just a technique name like "paradiddle" - it's actually the name of a human being! Anyway...that's what I stated, and sure enough, Zambizzi caught me going against my own philosophy. hahaha! Ooops!

[The Parasprinter]

Sorry if I'm repeating here.....

I try to combine a few very minimal movements to reach the extremities of the kit: slight spin on the throne, slight body twist, slight arm adjustment. Ideally all three are about equal and minimized, with none extending beyond the natural comfort zone. I never changed grip much, but if it helps do that too.

That's for moving both hands to the floor tom. If you're doing just the right and you can't move your body much, the French grip & windshield wiper motion will do the trick.

[Ian Ballard]

http://a684.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/29/l_a40cf64b33bb280ea9f547ca8c1af6b3.jpg

http://a363.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/13/l_f0216bfddb3b315cd1f06a2513bc655a.jpg

This is how I position my floor tom. I never have to twist or do anything unnatural.