next step on Jazz drumming

[coopa]

Hi,

Just wondering how to play jazz from the basic pattern to Elvin style or even modern NY style?

I mean, now i can play basic things, can do the "art of bop drumming" book, but even then, I still cannot figure out what and how Elvin played on the recordings. What's the idea behind his playing? and how do i learn it ? any book or dvd that i should check out? or is it just a totally different mind set to approach jazz?

Thanks for your experiences!

[jay norem]

Not sure what you mean by the NY style, but here's what I think. Forget about what Elvin Jones played. You say you can do the basics, right? So do those. Keep working on your basics all the time, make them swing, make them sound pretty, make them sound musical and hip.
Above all, find some people to play jazz with. Bring your basics to playing sessions and don't try to go too far afield. It takes time to get to the point where you're ready to tackle the kind of stuff Elvin Jones played.
And much more importantly, while you're applying those basics and getting the playing experience you'll be finding new things on your own, getting closer to arriving at your own style, your own voice.
Then in awhile you'll hear Elvin again and say "Oh, of course." And you know what? You'll probably already be playing some of that!
Takes time, though.
Congratulations on joining the jazz world. It's a great place to be coopa!
(By the way, don't neglect to learn some music theory and some basic piano skills. Trust me on that one.)

[blade123]

What you need to do is to get into 3-way comping and changing the ride pattern, which is covered in Beyond Bop Drumming. Sadly, this area is an area that is discussed VERY little. I'm getting into this area and it's hard finding help. I was working through Beyond, and still will, but now I'm starting to get out of books to listen more and to simply sit down to PLAY!

I have a teacher who is teaching me the "tricks" that no one ever tells anyone, and it's helping me play much better. Honestly, all of the GOOD information out there is just assumed that you know it. One thing that he has beaten into my head is BASS DRUM BASS DRUM BASS DRUM. He has helped me develop my right foot into a third hand, and it makes my playing sound SO much fuller. Before, I would ALWAYS fill with just hands and rarely use the bass drum. Now that I use a bass drum to fill in the gaps, I sound so much fuller. This is one thing that NO ONE tells anyone. He has explained that you should always try to play a pick up into a fill, and that too has made my playing fuller. Try getting a good teacher who will explain these things to you. I'm not saying that these things are closely guarded secrets or anything, but they are just assumed.

So have you developed your right foot to the point where it can act as a third hand? If not, get on that. Do you pick up into fills, or just "throw them out there"? If the latter, work on picking up into fills. How often do you use ghost notes and accents? My teacher has been showing me how to incorporate rimshots and ghost notes into everything I play.

Another thing that he indirectly taught me (and I figured out myself) is that no matter what dynamic, ALWAYS play with authority. Don't half-ass anything you play. That doesn't mean BASH, though. There's a difference between playing with authority and playing loud. If the situation calls for it, play quietly, but still play with authority. Remember, you are the heartbeat of the band, everyone looks to you for the pulse. If your playing is unsure, the rest of the band will be unsure and everything will crumble. Do you play with authority? Do you play like you mean it?

Do you want to know the REAL best way to get to the "next level"? Just PLAY! I've been getting to the "next level" by playing. I start to comp with my left foot naturally, I start to vary my ride pattern naturally. If you try to FORCE these things, people can tell and it will sound awkward.

My main advice is to play like you mean it, and to PLAY. Sit down at your kit and play either by yourself, with other musicians, or with records. It doesn't matter who you're playing with, just play. A ton of drummers get wrapped up into technique, independence, chops, and all that garbage. It doesn't matter how fast you can play if you can't play.

[jay norem]

So have you developed your right foot to the point where it can act as a third hand? If not, get on that. Do you pick up into fills, or just "throw them out there"? If the latter, work on picking up into fills.

Fills are the last thing a beginning jazz drummer wants to think about. It's about playing time; that's got to be the first and only thing. In my opinion. And playing time is what the basics of jazz drumming are about. It is the basic element of jazz drumming. In my opinion.

[blade123]

Fills are the last thing a beginning jazz drummer wants to think about. It's about playing time; that's got to be the first and only thing. In my opinion. And playing time is what the basics of jazz drumming are about. It is the basic element of jazz drumming. In my opinion.

I don't think you're giving him enough credit. If he can play through the Art, he should be at least decent.

[jay norem]

I don't think you're giving him enough credit. If he can play through the Art, he should be at least decent.

That, of course, remains to be seen. He's decent when he's playing jazz on the drums with jazz musicians and making it happen, and not until then.
Going through a book doesn't mean a damn thing. In my opinion.

[blade123]

That, of course, remains to be seen. He's decent when he's playing jazz on the drums with jazz musicians and making it happen, and not until then.
Going through a book doesn't mean a damn thing. In my opinion.

We're just arguing over how good someone is that we haven't heard play, so I choose not to go any further.

To the OP, do you have any clips of your playing?

[jay norem]

We're just arguing over how good someone is that we haven't heard play, so I choose not to go any further.

Well I sure don't wish to argue.

[coopa]

Thanks guys!

I appreciate all the information. I'll try to put your suggestion into my playing.

For NY style, i mean like Jeff Tain Watts, or Brian Blade, or drummers who plays with Mike Stern, John Scofield, Kenny Garrett...etc. They seldom play traditional jazz pattern, but something mixed with hip hop, funk elements...but you can tell they still have those jazz vocabulary in there.

Their playing sound like totally outside of the box to me but yet fit in the music quite well. And I have no idea how to reach that level, maybe it's just about experiences and time.

Sorry I don't have clips of my playing. I do play with people sometimes, and I agree playing with others helps alot.

[foursticks]

Nah, Jay was right when he said if you just keep working on basics then slowly start studying various concepts, you'll eventually hear Elvin again and go 'Oh right'.

These things take practise and patience. One thing I continually find is how my ear develops as my playing does. I can listen to an album and then come back to it a while later and discover new things in the music that I'd never heard before. As you progress you'll start exploring new concepts more and more, and from all the woodshedding you'll have the chops to pull it off.

Just keep practising!

[aboylikedave]

Hi,

Just wondering how to play jazz from the basic pattern to Elvin style or even modern NY style?

I mean, now i can play basic things, can do the "art of bop drumming" book, but even then, I still cannot figure out what and how Elvin played on the recordings. What's the idea behind his playing? and how do i learn it ? any book or dvd that i should check out? or is it just a totally different mind set to approach jazz?

Thanks for your experiences!

I think I know exactly what you mean. If I get you correctly I asked a similar thing here:

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40507

One good tip I heard is start by trying to play bits of the melody of the song on the snare.

[The Colonel]

Well...From a stylistic standpoint, you might want to check out some of Greg Osby's/Steve Coleman's 80's output (M-base Collective). A lot of that "modern" sound comes from that period. Some of it might seem a tad "dated" now, but I'd say about 99% of that "NY sound" comes from a combination of trad jazz mixed with some of that hip-hop-influenced stuff. I never really constructed that thought until perhaps just now, reading this thread.

But if you go ask Eric Harland, Nasheet Waits, Eric McPherson, Rodney Greene, etc - I'm 100% positive they checked that stuff out. Nasheet said he listened to mostly hip-hop growing up.



Oh - and practice jazz too.

[wy yung]

Have you got a good teacher? That can help.

[paramac]

If you can,try to take a lesson from Ian Froman. This guy studied extensively with Elvin and is an authority on his style. Ian teaches at the Drummers Collective in NYC and at his house in New Jersey near NYC and I think he still does some teaching in Boston at Berklee though I'm not sure about that. I have been playing a while and I'm 42 now and have a hard time getting out of the Bop style of drumming so I went to him about 4 months ago and have seen him like 4 times so far and he is helping me a lot with understanding the concept of playing in an Elvin, Jack, sort of way. It is a different kind of thinking playing this way and there is a lot to the simplicity of it. You know, simple, but not easy.It is kicking my ass but it is helping a lot and I know it will take some time to get it together but I don't plan on stopping any time soon..I don't regret studying with any of the guys I went to in the past but I wish I went to see Ian 12 yrs ago when I first started to seriously get into playing Jazz...

[jonescrusher]

Just to get you started, remember that Elvin's usual ride pattern involved placing the accent on the skip note, the 'lang' of spang-a-lang. That was part of what set apart his time feel from others. You can get going by practicing the comping from Art using that new ride pattern./

[bballdrummer34]

Listen, Listen and do some more listening when you get done listening. Elvin is the first drummer I was into when I began jazz drums. As you begin to "start with the basics" or whatever level of playing you are at, continue to listen to Elvin. It's important to hear those basic rhythms the way he played them. As you grow as a player you'll begin to hear how HE phrases things compared to the way say someone like Max Roach or Philly Jo Jones phrases things. Also, listen to other drummers of the time like Max, Philly, Roy Haynes and other drummers you think are worth checking out. Listen as much as you practice or more, then you will get a real feel for how to approach what you are looking for as a player yourself.

[Wavelength]

Just to get you started, remember that Elvin's usual ride pattern involved placing the accent on the skip note, the 'lang' of spang-a-lang.

Erratum: the skip note is the "a" of the spang-a-lang; the "lang" refers to 1 and 3, and the "spang" refers to 2 and 4.

[jonescrusher]

Erratum indeed!!!


.....

[Deltadrummer]

I would say start working through the Syncopation book, a la Ramsay, The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary. If you search under Syncopation here, will find several threads related to sharing exercises for the book. Once you start to practice these comping ideas, you will better hear what is going on. The Mike Clark Funk Drumming and Frank Walabe Afro-Cuban Drumming books also have short sections devoted to Elvin's playing, not to forget Riley's Beyond Bop Drumming. Elvin also plays a lot of repeated three beat phrases playing through the bar line 3+3+2, and mixes up the phrasing along those lines. Riley's book goes into that. I think looking into African rhythms would also be a good idea to better understand what Elvin was hearing in his head. You could probably start with Baba Olatunji's Drums of Passion, if you don't own it. Good luck!!!

[The Colonel]

I would say start working through the Syncopation book, a la Ramsay, The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary. If you search under Syncopation here, will find several threads related to sharing exercises for the book. Once you start to practice these comping ideas, you will better hear what is going on. The Mike Clark Funk Drumming and Frank Walabe Afro-Cuban Drumming books also have short sections devoted to Elvin's playing, not to forget Riley's Beyond Bop Drumming. Elvin also plays a lot of repeated three beat phrases playing through the bar line 3+3+2, and mixes up the phrasing along those lines. Riley's book goes into that. I think looking into African rhythms would also be a good idea to better understand what Elvin was hearing in his head. You could probably start with Baba Olatunji's Drums of Passion, if you don't own it. Good luck!!!

Yeah!

Also - besides Froman - Robert Kaufman has a book out that is basically a styles-class for Elvin - They were very good friends...Umm...the title is....(all my books are in boxes as I'm moving soon) uh...I forget. Look up Kaufman... Great books though - even though I can't think of their names.