Total noob about speed and rebound

[Sepp]

First of all, hi fellow drummers. This is my first post and I'm sorry for it's length, but you know how noobs are. ;)

How should I start,...
I just bought the game "rock band" a couple of weeks ago and got addicted to the rhythm. So before I begin playing real drums, I have a few questions.

As some of you may know, the toy drums of rock band have absolutely no rebound. (The "bouncing test" from the video "How to hold the drum sticks" showed me that my mouse pad had more rebound than these drums :P ). Therefore with my zero knowledge I developed a drum stick holding, that made the sticks rebound in my hands, which gave me a little more speed. After seeing the video about drum stick holding, I tried the matched grip on the toy drums, but it just slowed me down.

So here are my questions:

1) Is rebound in general the key to fast drumming?

2) Does the rebound of the snare/toms satisfy this factor, or are there some other secret drumming techniques involved?

3) I've heard that the drum sticks have to be held with a lose grip. Ok, thats obvious, but...
Is this because of another rebound in the hands, or is it just for a better sound when hitting the drums? Seems like I can't get any rebound out of the matched grip.

4) This one is essential to me: I'm planning to buy e-drums from Roland. There is a gap of 500€ between the TD-9S (plastic toms) and the TD-9SX (meshed heads). So, speaking about rebound, do the meshed heads have more of it, or do they just "feel better"?

Thanks again for the patience when reading through this post. These questions are really bothering me for some time now.

[chrisev94]

1.Actually no, but is a factor when playing, an experienced drummer can play almost as fast on a pillow for a example (which has no rebound) as on a regular drum set with regular rebound.

2.If you are talking about speed the drums dont really help, what helps is practising your wrist motion and moving the stick with your wrist and not your arm.

3.Loose grip helps the wrists move more freely and obviously faster than holding a stick tightly, try that yourself and you 'll see.

4.The rubber pads have more rebound and feel just like practice pads, the mesh heads have a soft and more realistic feeling i would say.

[Sepp]

Thanks a lot.
That definitely helped me understanding some concepts.

[tomgrosset]

Hey Sepp, welcome to the Drummerworld forum.

You should check out this link so you can educate yourself on the fundamental aspect of drumming.

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html

Dom Famularo is a great teacher and can really get you started.

I noticed that you're talking a lot about rebound as well. I suggest you check out the free stroke to get a better understanding of it.

And just so you know, if you're playing on a "Rock Band" drum set and/or electronic drum set, you're gonna notice that there is a totally different feel on a real acoustic set.

[Ian Ballard]

This is my addendum to the previous good advice:


1) Is rebound in general the key to fast drumming?

2) Does the rebound of the snare/toms satisfy this factor, or are there some other secret drumming techniques involved?

3) I've heard that the drum sticks have to be held with a lose grip. Ok, thats obvious, but...
Is this because of another rebound in the hands, or is it just for a better sound when hitting the drums? Seems like I can't get any rebound out of the matched grip.

4) This one is essential to me: I'm planning to buy e-drums from Roland. There is a gap of 500€ between the TD-9S (plastic toms) and the TD-9SX (meshed heads). So, speaking about rebound, do the meshed heads have more of it, or do they just "feel better"?

Thanks again for the patience when reading through this post. These questions are really bothering me for some time now.

1) The key is your mind. I don't think Buddy Rich was muscularly superior to anybody else, and he was not known as a "practicer". He did, however, possess superhuman ego and more importantly the ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE AND CERTAINTY the he could play that fast and his body had no choice but to obey.

2) The snare and toms usually exhibit vastly different levels of rebound, unless you play a slack snare and tight toms. A tight snare gives you a high degree of "stored potential energy". This added PE to your energy = an excess and is partially dissipated in sound and physical vibrations through the head--->drum and from the stick--->hand. If the stick is allowed to rebound or deflect off the head---with controlled guidance from the hand/fingers---it should actually have gained some PE, since the stick should go higher than it was initiated. Starting at the 90 degree fortississimo (LOUD!) position, if you add momentum to the stick (not just letting it drop), the excess of energy is even more. However with toms, they are generally much looser than the snare and that means less stored PE. This means, in order to equal the relative volume and attack, you have to put more momentum into the stroke. Simply allowing the stick to fall on the tom will actually produce a deficit of rebound energy, producing a smaller rebound than the stick originated.

This means practice needs to be versatile. Still do a majority of practice dealing with rebounds and tensioned heads. But also practice on pillows or gel pads to get your wrists, forearms and finger muscle groups in shape. Varying your practice between rebound techniques and upstroke/forced rebound techniques will help you develop continuity between your snare and tom playing. No secrets, just common sense.

3) I'll quote you a passage from the Tao Te Ching:

"Under Heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.

Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy compliment each other.
Long and short depend on each other.
High and Low rest upon each other.
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow on another.

Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease;
Creating, yet not possessing,
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever."

That's how I approach tight versus loose. ;)

4) They are cool drums. They feel OK and you can make them as tight or loose as you want.

[Gyrefalcon]

2) The snare and toms usually exhibit vastly different levels of rebound, unless you play a slack snare and tight toms. A tight snare gives you a high degree of "stored potential energy". This added PE to your energy = an excess and is partially dissipated in sound and physical vibrations through the head--->drum and from the stick--->hand. If the stick is allowed to rebound or deflect off the head---with controlled guidance from the hand/fingers---it should actually have gained some PE, since the stick should go higher than it was initiated. Starting at the 90 degree fortississimo (LOUD!) position, if you add momentum to the stick (not just letting it drop), the excess of energy is even more. However with toms, they are generally much looser than the snare and that means less stored PE. This means, in order to equal the relative volume and attack, you have to put more momentum into the stroke. Simply allowing the stick to fall on the tom will actually produce a deficit of rebound energy, producing a smaller rebound than the stick originated.


The only potential energy stored in a drumhead before being hit is the tension, which can only be released through loosening the head. Following Hooke's law, the amount of force that will be returned just after the hit is the elasticity constant multiplied by the degree of deflection. The reason a taught head will give a larger rebound (assuming a perfect system, otherwise efficiency comes into play) is because the elasticity constant increases giving a larger force opposite to the original deflection. The potential energy of the head would be given by PE=1/2*k*x^2, where k is the elasticity constant, and x is the amount of deflection. Given this, a head with 0 deflection, would have 0 stored energy (no matter what k is), it isn't until the energy of the stick hitting it transfered (through deflection) that the head acquires PE.
The only variable for the amount energy that you get out of the process is the energy you put in to it (excepting loss as entropy and sound as per the second law of thermodynamics). The reason you will get greater height through rebound than the starting height, is because you put greater energy into the stick then gravity exerts against it on the way back up.

[Ian Ballard]

The only potential energy stored in a drumhead before being hit is the tension, which can only be released through loosening the head. Following Hooke's law, the amount of force that will be returned just after the hit is the elasticity constant multiplied by the degree of deflection. The reason a taught head will give a larger rebound (assuming a perfect system, otherwise efficiency comes into play) is because the elasticity constant increases giving a larger force opposite to the original deflection. The potential energy of the head would be given by PE=1/2*k*x^2, where k is the elasticity constant, and x is the amount of deflection. Given this, a head with 0 deflection, would have 0 stored energy (no matter what k is), it isn't until the energy of the stick hitting it transfered (through deflection) that the head acquires PE.
The only variable for the amount energy that you get out of the process is the energy you put in to it (excepting loss as entropy and sound as per the second law of thermodynamics). The reason you will get greater height through rebound than the starting height, is because you put greater energy into the stick then gravity exerts against it on the way back up.

Actually, you would place a distance variant in the summation of the upper bound: [Sigma]--- v1/MG

-----------------(change in direction)v2/dissipated KE

Divide this summation by the Newtons squared (N^2)of the tensioned head.

If you apply an upper bound calculation of distance, initial velocity with the reciprocated (Hooke's spring constant) release of KE, there will be no homogenized way to calculate the energy sink. You have to account for sound dissipation, direct KE transfer from the tip to the point of impact, as well as the head's reconciliation from the impact---they become a multi-dimensional velocity/dissipated KE argument.

You could also take the specific variants in wave propagation with various head tensions, drum stick types, etc.

Hooke's Law applies to the pendulum-like movement that can be achieved by a single-stroke roll, but since equilibrium is reached, when the stick rests on the head, theoretically the movement UP, must be observed first. The tension argument arises from Newtons, as well as elastic strain energy in the head itself. Dents would be "plastic deformation" of the head, which is more common on low-tensioned drums, since tension creates "work-hardening" in a quasi-elastic material like Mylar. You also have to observe rotational velocity, which is another argument altogether.
Bottom line: Less tension, less rebound.

[byronand]

Bottom line: Less tension, less rebound.

I like bottom lines! :)

[tomgrosset]

This is getting way too technical...

[drumhead61]

LOL this is hilarious, but interesting, to think we are all drummers and smarter ones NOW!!! Thanks GUYS

This is getting way too technical...

[Sepp]

Well, thanks again for all the information.

@tomgrosset:
Thanks for the link.
I would really love to buy an acoustic kit, but I'm living in a flat with pretty fin walls. I think it would be better to buy some e-drums, than to stuff the whole base drum with my laundry.

@Ian Ballard:
I guess some of you drummers out there must have a "mind power" that can drill through walls. :P

@Gyrefalcon:
Sounds good...

@Ian Ballard (2nd post):
That's the way it goes, although I wouldn't quote any physical laws or coherences when talking about drumming. I'll agree with the bottom line, even without description.

p.s.: There is no interference by "sound dissipation", only by it's air pressure. It would also not make any sens of calculating the final height of the tip after a bounce, with any more than PE, KE, aerodynamic drag of the stick and the spring coefficient of the drum head. Calculating the drag of the drum head or even thermodynamic energy loss would be like adding the drag of the antenna to a cars total aerodynamic friction. If any of you gets a loss of more than 1e-3 [J] by the entropy released at a drum sticks impact, I'd reconsider my assumptions. Until then, stop thinking, keep drumming.

[Ian Ballard]

stop thinking, keep drumming.

I'll do both, but thanks!

[Ian Ballard]

@Ian Ballard:
I guess some of you drummers out there must have a "mind power" that can drill through walls. :P

Well, it isn't "belief", so much as an absolutely certainty of something. If you were as certain, as the wall is "solid", as it is "non-solid", passing through a wall would be possible. However, do to the programming of our "education" in this 3D realm, there is no "absolute certainty" that you can pass through the wall. However, merely seeing Buddy Rich play as fast as he does, allows you absolute certainty a human like yourself is capable of it.

@Ian Ballard (2nd post):
That's the way it goes, although I wouldn't quote any physical laws or coherences when talking about drumming. I'll agree with the bottom line, even without description.

p.s.: There is no interference by "sound dissipation", only by it's air pressure. It would also not make any sens of calculating the final height of the tip after a bounce, with any more than PE, KE, aerodynamic drag of the stick and the spring coefficient of the drum head. Calculating the drag of the drum head or even thermodynamic energy loss would be like adding the drag of the antenna to a cars total aerodynamic friction. If any of you gets a loss of more than 1e-3 [J] by the entropy released at a drum sticks impact, I'd reconsider my assumptions.

Any of the energy dissipated that does not translate into "unloading" of the "spring"---that is the drumhead---cannot be used as rebound energy. That is the point. The sound you make is a consequence of one form of energy that does not "help" you raise the stick back up. But as you know, that is a welcome consequence. ;)

[Big_Philly]

This is getting way too technical...

This is nothing. Try mathematically modelling a drum head using a Bessel function.

[Ben Tormey]

This is nothing. Try mathematically modelling a drum head using a Bessel function.

Interestingly you can't hear the shape of a drum (although you can hear the area, the length of the boundary, and the number of holes if it has any!).

[bobdadruma]

The relationship between physics and percussion has long fascinated me. I will openly admit that I struggle with the understanding of physics. This thread has been helpful to me. A few days ago I looked at the bass Drum pedal and I spent hours studying the relationship that it has to physics. I was surprised at what I realized from my research.

[byronand]

A few days ago I looked at the bass Drum pedal and I spent hours studying the relationship that it has to physics. I was surprised at what I realized from my research.

Would you care to share?

[bobdadruma]

Would you care to share?I learned that the foot pedal is a complicated machine. A bit like a catapult but not quite. I also learned that the rebound from the drum head plays an important roll in the way that the pedal works. I disconnected the spring and I played my pedal. I learned that you didn't need the spring at all when playing fast. The rebound alone was enough to return the beater for the next stroke. The spring is only needed for playing slowly and hitting lightly. I learned through experimentation about the importance of adjusting the beater length and weight. The heaver the beater is the more energy is needed to propel it into the head but when its hits the head it hits it harder. The longer the shaft is the more time it will take the beater to reach the head. I adjusted the spring at different lengths and I learned that as long as the spring was tight enough to return the pedal it would work just as well as it would if you tightened the spring all the way. It just had to be pushed down harder. I could go on but I'm getting tired. I encourage all to experiment with your pedal. It uses almost all the rules of physics.

[Gyrefalcon]

I learned that the foot pedal is a complicated machine. A bit like a catapult but not quite. I also learned that the rebound from the drum head plays an important roll in the way that the pedal works. I disconnected the spring and I played my pedal. I learned that you didn't need the spring at all when playing fast. The rebound alone was enough to return the beater for the next stroke. The spring is only needed for playing slowly and hitting lightly. I learned through experimentation about the importance of adjusting the beater length and weight. The heaver the beater is the more energy is needed to propel it into the head but when its hits the head it hits it harder. The longer the shaft is the more time it will take the beater to reach the head. I adjusted the spring at different lengths and I learned that as long as the spring was tight enough to return the pedal it would work just as well as it would if you tightened the spring all the way. It just had to be pushed down harder. I could go on but I'm getting tired. I encourage all to experiment with your pedal. It uses almost all the rules of physics.

A pedal is an excellent example of a complex machine (it is changing both magnitude and direction of force through the use of multiple simple machines). If I am not mistaken (been a while since I learning about machines) most pedals consist of a second class lever (the footboard) and a first class lever (beater and linkage). If you really wanted to have some fun you could figure out the ratios of force based on a force applied to the "sweet spot" of the pedal.

[byronand]

...I encourage all to experiment with your pedal. It uses almost all the rules of physics.

Hey man, interesting... thanks for posting some of your observations and comments!

[Big_Philly]

Interestingly you can't hear the shape of a drum (although you can hear the area, the length of the boundary, and the number of holes if it has any!).

well if you know what to look for you can hear approximately which modes of vibration are most prominent. Though I can only distinguish between a fundamental note and harmonics.

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/MembraneCircle/Circle.html

If you see these animations, I think you'll realize why you get the most power out of a drum when you strike it in the middle, and why you seem to get a higher note when you strike it off centre.

But this is completely off topic...

[Ian Ballard]

well if you know what to look for you can hear approximately which modes of vibration are most prominent. Though I can only distinguish between a fundamental note and harmonics.

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/MembraneCircle/Circle.html

If you see these animations, I think you'll realize why you get the most power out of a drum when you strike it in the middle, and why you seem to get a higher note when you strike it off centre.

But this is completely off topic...

You can model a drumhead in Mathmatica and see how exactly it deals with various wave inputs.

[bobdadruma]

A pedal is an excellent example of a complex machine (it is changing both magnitude and direction of force through the use of multiple simple machines). If I am not mistaken (been a while since I learning about machines) most pedals consist of a second class lever (the footboard) and a first class lever (beater and linkage). If you really wanted to have some fun you could figure out the ratios of force based on a force applied to the "sweet spot" of the pedal. My math skills aren't the greatest. I was hopping to find a website where someone had calculated the ratios with a pedal and explained it. I haven't found one yet. I do understand basic physical concepts of leverage. It seems to me that there will be many variables to consider.

[Sah]

I've been interested in the physics of drums for a while (being a physicist and a drummer!). Its interesting that if you compare the harmonics of a drum compared to a say a piano string or guitar you see that the drums harmonics are much more complex and that is primarily due to the fact that the drum is two-dimensional whereas a piano string oscillated like a 1D oscillator. The link big philly posted is quite interesting, it shows some of the modes (harmonics) of drum heads. Interestingly the modes of cymbals look very different primarily because the boundary conditions of cymbals and drums are different (drums have a fixed boundary while cymbals have a fixed center).

In response to the discussion about Hooke's Law on the drums head. You can set the potential energy of the drum head, while not being hit, to zero (potential energy is determined upto a constant) since you aren't worried about the potential energy stored by it being stretched (unlesss it were to snap!).

The real difference in the cases of the rebounded stroke and say a stroke where you were to dig the stick into the drum head is the change in kinetic energy of the stick. When the stick rebounds only a small amount of energy goes into the drum head (its essentially an elastic collision where kinetic energy is conserved) and the stick goes back up at about the same rate it came down, so you need to put in very little energy to keep playing (so its much better for long term playing). In the case of digging the stick into the head alot of energy of the stick goes into the drum head and you get a loud sound, however there is a drawback here, by digging the stick into the head you also increase the collision time of the stick and the drum head, so the drum head cannot resonate freely and essentially becomes damped and the sound isn't as nice.

[TheGroceryman]

Wow this is very interesting reading. but theres one thing you guys didnt discuss, which im pretty interested in as well. what about rimshots? how do they make such BIIIIG sounds? and why doesnt the stick rebound as in a regular stroke?

[Sah]

Hmm rimshots are quite interesting... I'm not too sure as to why they're so much louder than regular hits, it probably has to do with the resonances you excite when you hit the shell and the head at the same time, but I'm no expert on acoustic physics and can't really say more.

Another interesting thing is the physics of large cymbals and gongs when you strike them hard. Especially with gongs you can hear the low frequencies at the start and then the harmonics kind of shift to the higher frequencies (you can sometimes hear this if you strike a ride cymbal hard as well). The interesting thing here is that the wave velocity on the gong is related to the amplitude of the wave (so how hard you strike the gong). This leads to what is known in physics as "non-linear" behaviour of waves (wave speed depends on wave amplitude) and causes some very interesting phenomona such as the change in the harmonics of the instrument (frequency conversion). You can test this by hitting a gong softly and you realise that no such change in the harmonics occurs as the wave produced is predominantly "linear" (since the amplitude is small the wave velocity is constant and not proportional to the wave amplitude anymore). The non-linear regime becomes more and more predominant when you strike the gong harder and harder.

As an aside... this non-linear phenomena of waves doesn't only occur in instruments but occurs in all sorts of waves including water waves and light waves! (although in these cases its usually more difficult to realise)

Sorry for my rants, I'm just interested in physics :D

[ermghoti]

So here are my questions:

Best answer: take lessons from a good instructor. Otherwise, buy the JoJo Mayer DVD. He explains in great detail a number of hand techniques, which will both maximize rebound, and allow one to play on a surface with no rebound at all.

Mesh heads rebound a lot more than acoustic heads, which can be a handicap if you spend any time on "real" drums.

[hateplow]

If you purchase the Roland kit with mesh heads, you will notice that they have much more rebound than real drumheads.

[Ian Ballard]

I've been interested in the physics of drums for a while (being a physicist and a drummer!). Its interesting that if you compare the harmonics of a drum compared to a say a piano string or guitar you see that the drums harmonics are much more complex and that is primarily due to the fact that the drum is two-dimensional whereas a piano string oscillated like a 1D oscillator. The link big philly posted is quite interesting, it shows some of the modes (harmonics) of drum heads. Interestingly the modes of cymbals look very different primarily because the boundary conditions of cymbals and drums are different (drums have a fixed boundary while cymbals have a fixed center).

In response to the discussion about Hooke's Law on the drums head. You can set the potential energy of the drum head, while not being hit, to zero (potential energy is determined upto a constant) since you aren't worried about the potential energy stored by it being stretched (unlesss it were to snap!).

The real difference in the cases of the rebounded stroke and say a stroke where you were to dig the stick into the drum head is the change in kinetic energy of the stick. When the stick rebounds only a small amount of energy goes into the drum head (its essentially an elastic collision where kinetic energy is conserved) and the stick goes back up at about the same rate it came down, so you need to put in very little energy to keep playing (so its much better for long term playing). In the case of digging the stick into the head alot of energy of the stick goes into the drum head and you get a loud sound, however there is a drawback here, by digging the stick into the head you also increase the collision time of the stick and the drum head, so the drum head cannot resonate freely and essentially becomes damped and the sound isn't as nice.

Actually, the PE needs to be more than 0, for a tensioned head. The reason is simple. Strike a drumhead that is out-of-the-box and untensioned and then strike the same head (exactly the same way) with it under tension. Clearly, the kinetic energy is absorbed as sound/vibrational energy with minor wavelets traveling into the stick, etc. However, because the head further stretches when it is struck, the unload when the "critical" stretch is achieved after the change of velocity (mv1-mv2), will produce a larger release of energy than the untensioned head. So, the PE is a critical consideration in an analysis of the energy sink involved in the loading and unloading of the "head spring".

[Ben Tormey]

well if you know what to look for you can hear approximately which modes of vibration are most prominent. Though I can only distinguish between a fundamental note and harmonics.

Well, that's certainly true, but in general you cannot hear the shape of the drum. In mathematical terms there exist isospectral manifolds: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/IsospectralManifolds.html

Sorry for going off topic again, but I found the physics discussion here quite interesting and I wanted to add something that some of the users here may appreciate.

[Ian Ballard]

Well, that's certainly true, but in general you cannot hear the shape of the drum. In mathematical terms there exist isospectral manifolds: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/IsospectralManifolds.html

Sorry for going off topic again, but I found the physics discussion here quite interesting and I wanted to add something that some of the users here may appreciate.

I personally don't believe this is "off-topic". The physics involved in drumming should be taught and understood. I think such physics discussions are part and parcel of a fundamental understanding of concepts such as "speed" and "rebound".

[Sah]

Actually, the PE needs to be more than 0, for a tensioned head. The reason is simple. Strike a drumhead that is out-of-the-box and untensioned and then strike the same head (exactly the same way) with it under tension. Clearly, the kinetic energy is absorbed as sound/vibrational energy with minor wavelets traveling into the stick, etc. However, because the head further stretches when it is struck, the unload when the "critical" stretch is achieved after the change of velocity (mv1-mv2), will produce a larger release of energy than the untensioned head. So, the PE is a critical consideration in an analysis of the energy sink involved in the loading and unloading of the "head spring".


Ummm thats not really what I meant (sorry if I misled). I meant to say that its more convenient to set the potential energy of the drum head when not being struck as zero. PE=0.5*k*(x-x_0)^2, where x_0 here corresponds to the position of the head when its on your tuned drum and is not being struck. Tightening the head changes the k which is important in determining how the stick reacts when the head is it. I think someone mentioned this previously.

It doesn't matter how tight you make the head PE is still zero when the drum isnt being struck.



Oh by the way that stuff on isospectral manifolds is pretty nice. I bet lots of mathematicians did alot of work to prove that for us :)

[PQleyR]

The key is your mind. I don't think Buddy Rich was muscularly superior to anybody else, and he was not known as a "practicer". He did, however, possess superhuman ego and more importantly the ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE AND CERTAINTY the he could play that fast and his body had no choice but to obey.


Never a truer word was spoken! The mind is the most important thing of all.

[Ian Ballard]

It doesn't matter how tight you make the head PE is still zero when the drum isnt being struck.

Sure, not striking your drum. But this thread is about "speed and rebound"... two concepts that involved striking the drum. Besides, much like the argument of "if no conscious being existed, but a tree fell, would it make a sound?", the head still possesses PE, stored in the form of tension, regardless if it's struck or not. So, when attaining "speed and rebound", one is under the constraints of said stored energy when playing. When playing a slack-tuned tom-tom, the concept still applies, but YOU have to produce the energy that is missing.

That was my point.

;)