Religious Discussions on Drummerworld

[bobdadruma]

There are visitors to this forum of all religious backgrounds and beliefs. I have noticed that the main forums on this site are being frequently used to discuss Christian religious topics. I think that the people who are using the main forums for Christian discussions are offending others who don't share the same interest in their threads. I think that the answer lies in respect for all that use this forum. I also think that a possible solution to this issue would be the establishment of a Christian Social Group for the Christians to hold their discussions. I don't see people of other religious orientations discussing their beliefs in the main forums. Ofending people and imposing religious agendas isn't what Drummerworld is about. I am tolerant and respectful of all peaceful people of all religious denominations. I wish love, peace and understanding to all people of the world.

[Leadfoot]

There are plenty of forums on the web for religious discussions, politics too. Those discussions don't belong here, they only breed arguments and insults.

[aydee]

I think the rules of drummerworld explicitly state that no religious or political discussions are permitted for the reasons already mentioned. They inevitably deteriorate into a slanging match that gets abusive & personal.

Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians.


...If wishes were horses ..and Aydee had Tony's flams....

[bobdadruma]

There are plenty of forums on the web for religious discussions, politics too. Those discussions don't belong here, they only breed arguments and insults.I agree. That is the main problem that I have seen from this activity.

[jamndrummer]

Seems to me now that you brought up the religious topic by starting this thread and then pointing out only Christians are doing the offending. Well, maybe if you and others feel like this it might be better to take it offline with the Mods and Bernard, state your feelings and then let them decide. Then they should be the ones who decide who can say what on this forum. After all there is an off topic section on this forum?

[mrchattr]

I actually thought that the mods made a good decision in keeping the one thread open. It became, at first, a focal point for all religious discussion that happened on this board. It was one thread, and you can put it on ignore if you don't like it, that kind of thing.

But I agree with you. It's gotten out of hand. It seems like every thread I read has someone saying something Christ-oriented.

Most of it seemed to stem from one guy, RhythmJunkie. He promised he would stop. Hopefully, it goes away after that. If not, well, the rules do forbid it...and I would support the enforcement of those rules, even if it led to me getting in trouble for the one thread I did participate in.

[stasz]

...If wishes were horses ..and Aydee had Tony's flams....

We can dream, can't we?

[bobdadruma]

"Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians." Quote from aydee

Yes,. That is why I suggested a Social Group for the purpose of the spiritual connection between music and religion

[jamndrummer]

bobdadruma
Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Southbury Ct.
Posts: 122

Re: Religious Discussions on Drummerworld

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians."

Yes,. That is why I suggested a Social Group for the purpose of the spiritual connection between music and religion
__________________
One persons jazz is another persons rock and roll. I find jazz in all that I see and hear.

Very well put. Stated like this will open up great doors for all religions and how they feel it relates to music with their beliefs.

[aydee]

We can dream, can't we?


LOL! I've been having the same dream for a while now ( or a recurring nightmare.... I flam when I'm not supposed to, : )

[stasz]

LOL! I've been having the same dream for a while now ( or a recurring nightmare.... I flam when I'm not supposed to, : )

Well, all I've been practicing lately is my high school's marching show. 5 high school snare drummers trying to play together?? Every note might as well be a flam. lol

[bobdadruma]

It would be nice to hear Bernard's thoughts on this issue. I think that it would also be interesting to see the views on the spiritual links between religion and music expressed in a forum that is dedicated to that purpose.

[bobdadruma]

I actually thought that the mods made a good decision in keeping the one thread open. It became, at first, a focal point for all religious discussion that happened on this board. It was one thread, and you can put it on ignore if you don't like it, that kind of thing.

But I agree with you. It's gotten out of hand. It seems like every thread I read has someone saying something Christ-oriented.

Most of it seemed to stem from one guy, RhythmJunkie. He promised he would stop. Hopefully, it goes away after that. If not, well, the rules do forbid it...and I would support the enforcement of those rules, even if it led to me getting in trouble for the one thread I did participate in. I don't feel that anyone should "Get in Trouble" For what has happened. I would just like to see a resolution to this issue. I also was taken in and I posted to one of the threads. It was after I posted that I realised that I was offending some people.

[Jon Cable]

Yeah great thoughts guys BUT...religion and politics breed resentment and cause rows and nastiness etc I think the 'christian drummer' thread was left alone as it was more about the drummers who are devout and the amount of work they get.
The rules on here have always been no religion, no politics and be nice, I personally don't see any need to change them; Im sure there must be the sort of socio-religious group that you suggest somewhere else on the web. Just my 5 cents [thats me burning in hell again!!]

[Deltadrummer]

Yeah great thoughts guys BUT...religion and politics breed resentment and cause rows and nastiness etc I think the 'christian drummer' thread was left alone as it was more about the drummers who are devout and the amount of work they get.
The rules on here have always been no religion, no politics and be nice, I personally don't see any need to change them; Im sure there must be the sort of socio-religious group that you suggest somewhere else on the web. Just my 5 cents [thats me burning in hell again!!]


I agree 100% Jon. It does seem to me that when there are happening religious or political discussion on one thread, the nastiness starts to leak over to the others.

[Bernhard]

It would be nice to hear Bernard's thoughts on this issue. I think that it would also be interesting to see the views on the spiritual links between religion and music expressed in a forum that is dedicated to that purpose.

My thought is, that i feel uncomfortable with religious topics her at DW. I always must have an eye at them to make sure, they don't get out of hands..and they tend to go so sooner or later.....

We don't delete them at first...in fact the rules say we should.

Anyway:
Threads in the off topic lounge are deleted and brushed off from time to time without further notice. So be sure to backup meaningful thoughts all the time, before they're gone.

Yes, is great for some to have a forum dedicated to religious questions.
Not at Drummerworld of course, but there are so many out there already - good Links?

Bernhard

[aboylikedave]

Agree with Bernhard about being uncomfortable with purely religious topics for threads (as opposed to just religious references).

But for the record I actually also get a bit peeved by lots of references as well - it can be annoying for drummers of other faiths or of no faith or angostics or atheists to see Christian stuff pop up all over the place spoken as if it is a normal world view, when it is not normal in many parts of the drumming community both globally and locally.

However I also understand that they are not trying to wind anyone up and I actually find the discussions about drumming in Churches very interesting.

Censorship is a rocky road so I would vote for a) a reiteration of the 'no religion rule' and be b) really just ignore it. As someone once said 'They know not what they do!'

Peace.

[bobdadruma]

It is obvious from reading Bernhard's response that he has to make some difficult decisions in this area. I don't envy him for that. Thank you Bernhard for sharing your wisdom with us on this issue.

[Deathmetalconga]

There are visitors to this forum of all religious backgrounds and beliefs. I have noticed that the main forums on this site are being frequently used to discuss Christian religious topics. I think that the people who are using the main forums for Christian discussions are offending others who don't share the same interest in their threads. I think that the answer lies in respect for all that use this forum. I also think that a possible solution to this issue would be the establishment of a Christian Social Group for the Christians to hold their discussions. I don't see people of other religious orientations discussing their beliefs in the main forums. Ofending people and imposing religious agendas isn't what Drummerworld is about. I am tolerant and respectful of all peaceful people of all religious denominations. I wish love, peace and understanding to all people of the world.

The thing is, everyone wants to talk about Christianity. In some of the other threads about religion and drumming, some people would try to move the conversation into the realm of spirituality and music, but people on all sides of the issue kept dragging it back to Christianity. That may reflect the largely Western makeup of the board.

There is a deep historical connection between religion, spirituality and music. Some religions believe that music is one of the ways to attain higher spiritual levels, or to more closely approach the divine. In many societies, music does not exist outside of worship. In the West, we are more secular and music can serve completely different purposes, recreational, marketing, etc. Yet the close relationship between music and the divine (as some people choose to believe/call it) persists for many musicians and audience members.

There are many, many other religions and they all have a fascinating relationship with music and their larger culture. This is getting more into anthropology and that may be a safer place to discuss the connection between faith and music - as long as believers and nonbelievers alike are willing to acknowledge the existence of non-Christian religions.

I do not favor a strict, uneducated approach that says, "No discussion of religion of any kind." Music has been with humankind for tens of thousands of years and there is much to learn from that rich history.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Offending you? If you're offended by people explaining what they believe in, then that's ignorant and narrow minded of you. I agree, don't talk about religion on here, but to be offended, unless they're attacking you personally, is ignorant. I guess you're offended by Christmas and Easter then eh?

[bobdadruma]

Agree with Bernhard about being uncomfortable with purely religious topics for threads (as opposed to just religious references).

But for the record I actually also get a bit peeved by lots of references as well - it can be annoying for drummers of other faiths or of no faith or angostics or atheists to see Christian stuff pop up all over the place spoken as if it is a normal world view, when it is not normal in many parts of the drumming community both globally and locally.

However I also understand that they are not trying to wind anyone up and I actually find the discussions about drumming in Churches very interesting.

Censorship is a rocky road so I would vote for a) a reiteration of the 'no religion rule' and be b) really just ignore it. As someone once said 'They know not what they do!'

Peace. Good Point! My fundamental belief is that censorship is wrong. I agree that we also have the freedom to ignore what we don't want to read or talk about. I saw many people who couldn't ignore it. They were lashing out at the people who they disagreed with and that was causing problems. I also agree that the Christians were not trying to "Wind anyone up".

[gmrakich]

It's very simple really. Bernhard does not like it or want it so don't do it. Respect the mans wishes.

[bobdadruma]

Offending you? If you're offended by people explaining what they believe in, then that's ignorant and narrow minded of you. I agree, don't talk about religion on here, but to be offended, unless they're attacking you personally, is ignorant. I guess you're offended by Christmas and Easter then eh? I wasn't ofended. I was pointing out that other people were ofended. I found the treads interesting. My main question was do they belong in the main forums?

[mrchattr]

Offending you? If you're offended by people explaining what they believe in, then that's ignorant and narrow minded of you. I agree, don't talk about religion on here, but to be offended, unless they're attacking you personally, is ignorant. I guess you're offended by Christmas and Easter then eh?

The problem is that often, on both sides, people come across as offensive. There's a big difference between stating an opinion, and coming across as thinking you're (the person posting, not you personally) better than another person. It's the difference between: "Well, I believe that God gave us all gifts, some more than others," and "Look, God gives us gifts, that's where they come from, not from us, and you're stupid for thinking differently."

Or the difference between: "I have a question about Christianity. Why would you believe that God blesses people that don't believe in him?" and "See, this is why Christians are stupid. You believe that God blesses people that don't even believe in him. What the heck would the point of that be? There isn't one."

Also, the other thing I found offensive in some of the posts was the lack of actual conversation. A few of the people I engaged actually discussed my responses, I discussed theirs, etc. But other people just threw out the standard dogma that they use to "prove" their beliefs (either pro-God or anti-God) and if you argued against them, or showed another possible way to look at it, just ignored that post and attacked someone else's.

I think that is the kind of stuff that people find offensive.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I like the unwritten bar rule: "No religion and no politics".

[bobdadruma]

The problem is that often, on both sides, people come across as offensive. There's a big difference between stating an opinion, and coming across as thinking you're (the person posting, not you personally) better than another person. It's the difference between: "Well, I believe that God gave us all gifts, some more than others," and "Look, God gives us gifts, that's where they come from, not from us, and you're stupid for thinking differently."

Or the difference between: "I have a question about Christianity. Why would you believe that God blesses people that don't believe in him?" and "See, this is why Christians are stupid. You believe that God blesses people that don't even believe in him. What the heck would the point of that be? There isn't one."

Also, the other thing I found offensive in some of the posts was the lack of actual conversation. A few of the people I engaged actually discussed my responses, I discussed theirs, etc. But other people just threw out the standard dogma that they use to "prove" their beliefs (either pro-God or anti-God) and if you argued against them, or showed another possible way to look at it, just ignored that post and attacked someone else's.

I think that is the kind of stuff that people find offensive. Thank you, those are examples of the type of offensive behavior that I was speaking of. People didn't like or want to see someone's religious view so they responded with a post that was deliberatly ment to offend the other posters.

[zambizzi]

I have Tony's flams...on video...

[bobdadruma]

I would like to point out that this forum is viewed by young children from all around the world. What we say here is read by them. We must always keep this in mind before we post material that could be seen as sensitive. As Bernhard has implied, we should limit our comments to the craft of percussion. There is no place here for controversial topics. They will only serve to discredit this forum.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

...and I only have flims.

I have been accused many times, not on here, of being very black and white. On this subject, I admit to it, No Religion or Politics. No one is hurt, nor offended.

[aydee]

I have Tony's flams...on video...

..or Elvin's spangalang,
Gadd's paradiddles,
Billy Higgin's left hand,
Colauita's soul,
Steve Jordan's heart
Copeland's or Lenny White's hi-hat,
Mike Clark's right foot,
Horacio's or Antonio Sanchez's left foot,
Mangini's or Donati's brain...

[kwolf68]

I have some SERIOUS issues with religious people, but them speaking freely isn't one of them.

[Dystisis]

I think the rules of drummerworld explicitly state that no religious or political discussions are permitted for the reasons already mentioned. They inevitably deteriorate into a slanging match that gets abusive & personal.

Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians.

Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)

[bobdadruma]

Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;) With certain ground rules that would be Interesting, Educational and Appropriate.

[burnthehero]

As a devout athiest, I find religious discussions to be more irrelevant and pointless than offensive. And, therefore not needed on this forum.

[aydee]

Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)

This issue of religion & music is really like a lot of the"What is jazz" threads. It's a subject so wide open to interpretation that often its blows a gasket midway and really interesting conversations come to a grinding halt.

If somehow the discussion stays connected to music, it makes it meaningful.
I've played the drums off and on for over 20 years. And to this day the real reason I play is mainly this. In all this time, there may have been 1 or 2 or maximum 3 times, when I think I might have seen the light. It is an explosion in my head, an illuminating, yet fleeting moment.
An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.

I also happen to believe that most 'real' musicians follow this God.

Airto once said that musicians are the transmitters of whatever it is that out there .. or up there. We, as musicians connect to it, convert it to sound and transmit to others. How else could you create a sound and the vibe & energy of that be felt by so many at the same time, in the same powerful way.

Something to think about, imo.

[aydee]

Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)

This issue of religion & music is really like a lot of the"What is jazz" threads. It's a subject so wide open to interpretation that often its blows a gasket midway and really interesting conversations come to a grinding halt.

If somehow the discussion stays connected to music, it makes it meaningful.
I've played the drums off and on for over 20 years. And to this day the real reason I play is mainly this. In all this time, there may have been 1 or 2 or maximum 3 times, when I think I might have seen the light. It is an explosion in my head, an illuminating, yet fleeting moment.
An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.

I also happen to believe that most 'real' musicians follow this God.

Airto once said that musicians are the transmitters of whatever it is that out there .. or up there. We, as musicians connect to it, convert it to sound and transmit to others. How else could you create a sound and the vibe & energy of that be felt by so many at the same time, in the same powerful way.

Something to think about, and debate imo.

[zambizzi]

..or Elvin's spangalang,
Gadd's paradiddles,
Billy Higgin's left hand,
Colauita's soul,
Steve Jordan's heart
Copeland's or Lenny White's hi-hat,
Mike Clark's right foot,
Horacio's or Antonio Sanchez's left foot,
Mangini's or Donati's brain...

I have Buddy's sour, constipated drumming face.

[kwolf68]

An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.



You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.

[aydee]

You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.


Well, we all believe in different things don't we ? It would all be rather predictable and boring otherwise.

And yes, being on an acid trip ( without the acid ) is kinda what I'm after. To each his own.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' tripe., you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers

The best musicians believe music is sacred.

Also I think you missed my point completely. The God I was taking about was a metaphor for music.

If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.

Not its not. Religion constrains some people and releases and empowers others.

There are no FACTS on this thread, only opinions and feelings. And I'm interested in sharing mine and reading about others ( till Bernhard shuts this thread down )

[zambizzi]

And yes, being on an acid trip ( without the acid ) is kinda what I'm after. To each his own.

Oh man, that's good to hear. I've been a sweating, babbling, crazy-eyed insomniac for years....I'm obviously knee-deep in nirvana!

[bobdadruma]

You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT. This is an example of what I was speaking about when I spoke off offending people. I also said that we should think before we post. Does this type of post have a place here. Would many parents want their young children to be reading this post?

[Ironcobra]

I don't think we should be discussing this. Nobody is going to say "OK you're right, I'm wrong".

Personally, I think if you want to believe in something, go for it, but keep it far away from people who don't want to hear it.

[aydee]

Oh man, that's good to hear. I've been a sweating, babbling, crazy-eyed insomniac for years....I'm obviously knee-deep in nirvana!

Vin, take it easy, its too early for a new Luddie fix ; )

[zambizzi]

Vin, take it easy, its too early for a new Luddie fix ; )

Uh oh...

1234567891011121314151617181920

[Deathmetalconga]

You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.

I believe you use all caps too much, that is my belief.

In any case, music, religion and spirituality go back a long way, tens of thousands of years, long before upstart religions like Christianity. Whether God exists or not, billions of people the world over, throughout history and today, view music as a way of expressing cosmic forces, glorifying God, attaining spiritual peace, etc. At the same time, people use music to sell deodorant and NASCAR shows.

None of this is good or bad - just simply some of the uses to which people put music. Odd-time ratamacues and cymbals felts are important topics, to be sure, but some of us here also want to respectfully discuss the intersection of music, religion and spirituality.

To paraphrase you without the caps: "It is my belief that understanding can be produced when no constraints are placed on respectful discussion."

[bobdadruma]

I just welcomed a new young drummer to this site. I gave him advice on lessons and kit buying. Should I have given him religious advice also? Perhaps I should have told him that God doesn't exist.

[zambizzi]

Why? Why is this discussion happening on a drum forum? Why is there a thread about a thread...about religious discussions?

I don't understand the need. I can see why topics like this are taboo here. It's the old adage that politics and religion are the two things you don't talk about in polite company.

Geeze folks, lighten up a bit.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I'm more than happy to discuss religion or politics with anyone, any time - but here is not the place.

[Deathmetalconga]

I just welcomed a new young drummer to this site. I gave him advice on lessons and kit buying. Should I have given him religious advice also? Perhaps I should have told him that God doesn't exist.

This adds to my suspicion that your original post on this thread was somewhat antagonistic. There are rational, respectful and useful ways to discuss the intersection between music, religion and spirituality, for those who are open to those kinds of discussions and wish to go there. If they don't want to go there, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss, is there now?

[bobdadruma]

I think that it is time to end this thread. The point needed to be made and Bernhard and all the posters in this thread have made the point. There is no place on Drummerworld for religious and political statements. I wish to thank Bernhard and all who contributed. I'm going to stop posting to it now and slowly let it fade away. I didn't start this thread to antagonize, as has been suggested. I started this thread because I saw statements on other threads that offended people for their beliefs. I read the rules of this forum and I realised why they were there. That was my reason.

[Bernhard]

You all see now what happens....all the time????!!!!!

Bernhard

[zambizzi]

I can entirely respect your distaste for topics like this here on DW now, Bernhard. I am guilty of starting politically-charged threads myself, in the past, and they usually end on a bad note.

I still think things like this can be discussed calmly, rationally, and respectfully but this thread wasn't started with those intentions.

I go back to the polite company comment - we're polite company here and some things just don't belong here, IMHO.

[Jeff Almeyda]

You all see now what happens....all the time????!!!!!

Bernhard

Please lock this thread. Look what's happened in just a few hours.

[Michael G]

I'm not touching this topic with a 20 foot pole.

[Ironcobra]

I'm not touching this topic with a 20 foot pole.

Make that 39 1/2 foot pole.

[Deathmetalconga]

I can entirely respect your distaste for topics like this here on DW now, Bernhard. I am guilty of starting politically-charged threads myself, in the past, and they usually end on a bad note.

I still think things like this can be discussed calmly, rationally, and respectfully but this thread wasn't started with those intentions.

I go back to the polite company comment - we're polite company here and some things just don't belong here, IMHO.

The farther we get from Western music, the more we will stumble into the religious and spiritual aspects of music. From that perspecitve, limiting discussion of religion would limit discussion of music.

For example, there are recognized genres of Christian, Klezmer, Indian, Chinese, Afro-Cuban, Indonesian, Middle Eastern music, etc, that all have strong religious underpinnings. If you had a thread about "Playing in church" or "How to best play 'Shnirele Perle'" (klezmer classic song about the Jewish longing for the messianic age) you could not help but refer to the religious context and there have been such threads around here already. The Chinese concept of chi permeates their music, martial arts, medicine, architecture and religion, among other things.

Respect, understanding and avoiding pushing beliefs on anyone is key in any conversation, whether you're talking religion, politics or Beanie Baby collecting.

[Steamer]

Having watched the tone of this latest related topic like the last one that got vaporized from view and seeing where this is going yet again time to get back to drummers and drums,cymbals etc.. and send this puppy to never never land once and for all IMO.

[wy yung]

I have noted of late that Christianity is being spoken about alot in drumming circles. Modern Drummer is beginning to look like the Christian science monitor. There is even a photo of Thomas Pridgen pointing to religious graffiti. I have no idea why this is happening. I feel the site does not need it. But I see people mentioning their god in posts that have nothing to do with the opening topic. Personally I feel that this is arrogance on the part of the poster who imposes his or her beliefs on others. And it is insulting to those who did not ask for it and who do not share the same beliefs.

Something I have never done here is speak about religion. And I'm a minister. But I wont impose it upon anyone. It does not belong.

(By the way, I don't practice.)

I feel if religious threads are not allowed, the same should be applied to people imposing religious beliefs in individual posts. But how to police it?

[Deltadrummer]

This adds to my suspicion that your original post on this thread was somewhat antagonistic. There are rational, respectful and useful ways to discuss the intersection between music, religion and spirituality, for those who are open to those kinds of discussions and wish to go there. If they don't want to go there, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss, is there now?

it is kind of a quandry isn't it? You read guys like Chris Coleman, Brian Blade and the host of drummers for whom their religions background is an important aspect of their drumming because they've come up through the church. In American music, you cannot detach popular music from Pentacostal music (or Hebrew music, or Latin music from Voodoo religions.) The church is where the 'rock' comes from that put the rhythm in Rhythm and Blues. You read the lyrics of all the old blues guys, and all they talk about is "The end."

Lead belly's Ol' Hannah

Why don't you go down, ol' Hannah
Don't you rise no more
If you come up in the mornin'
Bring judgment sure

Stan warned me against discussing certain topics on the internet was just not a good idea. But I didn't believe him. It is a rough ride.

[TheGroceryman]

I, too think talking about religion in this forum is pointless and shouldnt be allowed. I mean the only provable fact about Christianity is that hundreds of millions of people believe in it. And talking about it on a drum forum and a couple people discrediting it by saying you cant prove any of it is not going keep people from practicing it. It is hard (really!) to make someone believe differently about a view they have been practicing since they were born

[Steamer]

I agree 100% Jon. It does seem to me that when there are happening religious or political discussion on one thread, the nastiness starts to leak over to the others.

Yes and this is one of my big concerns Ken that I have noticed when political or religous differences are brought up and people see where each other stands and don't see eye to eye on the subjects and the once happy flow of information on drum related topics till then between certain individual members takes on a different less open tone dividing the membership up.

Keep open discussions of POLITICS and RELIGION off Drummerworld Forum for the sake of our whole online community and for keeping it one.

[dot_Anthem]

I am tolerant and respectful of all peaceful people of all religious denominations.

If you were then you wouldn't have made this topic XD.

[Steamer]

...and I only have flims.

I have been accused many times, not on here, of being very black and white. On this subject, I admit to it, No Religion or Politics. No one is hurt, nor offended.

Exact to the point Gruntersdad I was trying to put in my own words. Music to me trancends these boundaries and differences which is one thing i've always loved about it.

United {in drumming} we stand divided {in politics and religion} we fall....

[crdirtRider856]

Ehhhhhhhhh, I dont want to say this, but I will. I remember when the "Christian Drummers Get ALLLLLL the work" thread came out. I said it should be deleted, B. said he wouldnt delete it. No one else said anything, except for things like - (deleted) So look at us now, C'mon friends, I hate seeing any kind of personal "mud-slinging"(you might not see it, but I do) here, but when these things are let to go on... well, here we are,and there we be!

I have absolutely no problem with anyone's religious orientation, but when I see a post that not only suggests, but clearly states "God IS Everywhere", I cant help but be offended, I have no grudge against the poster of this statement, but I happen to feel the way I feel. Blame ME? Sure, if you want to, its cool, I ve been through worse....just know fellow drummers, I am here to gain advice, give what advice I can, and talk about DRUMS!

As already stated, our cyberspace has plenty of stops for those who want to voice their personal opinions on things like- Religion. Politics, Racism, Sexism,....Etc. I m here for one thing- DRUMS, and music as a side dish. So, can we keep it elsewhere and just be cool?

I dont think there should be any type of forum dedicated to religion of any type, no matter what it may consist of.... It will only create more havoc, and attract more argument. Sad as it may be, this is the way the normal "human" works, When one is offended, one will react. When all are insulted, all will insult back..Its the way we work....sucks but true.

I consider every one here a friend in a way, I dont wanna lose a friend. Especially one I ve never met! You may be Satan himself, but as far as I know, you re just a fellow drummer. Is it hurtin me? Nah, I m just glad to have people to talk to that share my interests. And what might that be?.... By the way.... anyone know how to fix a vintage strainer on my '64 Ludwig Supraphonic? OOOORRRR, help me identify this crazy-ass cymbal? How about the specific thread spacing on the lugnuts of an '82 Rogers' bass drum?

[caddywumpus]

I'm more than happy to discuss religion or politics with anyone, any time - but here is not the place.

Couldn't have said it any better myself...

[aydee]

I am here to gain advice, give what advice I can, and talk about DRUMS!


You're heck of a nice guy CDR, and I totally appreciate everything you just said. My view personal view on religion is exactly the same as yours - to impose is to insult and to talk of mine is to disrespect yours.

Having said that, where I'm really coming from is DMC's point about the proximity of spirituality to music. Here I would also amend DMC's point and include Western music. Much of the western classical symphonic works were borne of the Church diktats and the belief systems of the time, and jazz's roots, as we know, are in African tribal ritual music.

If we say we are a drum forum, will we stop at drum technique & cymbal felts ? I wonder if we are short changing ourselves?

Billy Ward discussed this at great length on a thread a while back. Practicing drums v/s practicing music, reaching for your inner self and putting it out there in our music - and whether we, as drummers spend enough time doing/thinking of that.

I'm not putting forth a point of view here, but merely spelling out a distinction between " My beliefs are superior to yours" mindset v/s " The spirituality of music".

The latter is intrinsic to what we do on the drums, is my only point.

Maybe it just cant be done on a forum as Jeff, Stan and our resident sage, MFB suggest. Maybe its all just too personal, and shouldn't be discussed on an open forum.

Like I said in my 1st post, if wishes were horses and I had Tony's........spirituality.... I'd be a monkey's jazzy uncle.

[jay norem]

For myself, I don't like being told what can't be talked about. Talking about things is okay, right? After all, it's only talking, discussing, the old back-and-forth. Call it debating, call it dialectics, but I don't see why there should be anything to fear or be offended by, considering the vast amount of rubbish that we all get exposed to during to course of any day.
As to the argument that young people view these discussions, I say only this. So what? Are we supposed to provide young people with a sanitized view of what actually happens in life?
Also, I can see that there are some people here, who could well be very fine drummers indeed, who wish to put forward their religious ideas as motivations for their approach to the instrument, and I have no problem with that as long as they're ready for comments or even criticisms that may come from the other side.
It's life, yeah? I'm pretty sure we're all big enough to take it.
Having said that, rules are rules and we're all priviledged to have this site, so we're all in the position of having to respect the guide-lines set down by those who have provided this site for us to use.
Still, it's fun to see just how much you can get away with...

[deltadrummer1]

You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.

Your post is a perfect example of why this thread was started in the first place. Congratulations!

[aydee]

Am loving your new Avatar, Ken!

[deltadrummer1]

Stan warned me against discussing certain topics on the internet was just not a good idea. But I didn't believe him. It is a rough ride.

You are correct, sir. After all.. the book does mention that the world despises Christians.

[Steamer]

On a side note:

Who's deltadrummer1. I know who Deltadrummer is. Seems we have 2 deltadrummers here correct?

The recently used quote is from Ken {Deltadrummer} right?

[deltadrummer1]

On a side note:

Who's deltadrummer1. I know who Deltadrummer is. Seems we have 2 deltadrummers here correct?

The recently used quote is from Ken {Deltadrummer} right?

Yes, there are two different Deltadrummers on the forum located in two different parts of the world. You're correct in assuming that I quoted Ken.

[Old Doc Yak]

First, let me say that religious, political, and other difficult subjects should, in my opinion, be limited on any music forum. However, I do believe that censorship must be avoided. What disturbs me about this thread, no offense to Bob, is that it starts with the concept of "Oh oh, what if we say something that offends ____ ____ (fill in the blanks)" I'm a 71 year-old dude and I've seen this attitude proliferate over my life time. We are sometimes so afraid to say or do something that will offend someone that our freedom of speech has suffered. Granted, religion, politics, and many other subjects are controversial. But if everyone starts thinking "oh, oh, who might be offended?" before they say or do anything; we have a problem. No one on this earth is quaranteed immunity from offending or being offended. No one has the right to put a gag in someone's mouth because they feel offended.

[Steamer]

Yes, there are two different Deltadrummers on the forum located in two different parts of the world. You're correct in assuming that I quoted Ken.


Thanks for clearing that up. Just want to be clear who is quoting what and for whatever reasons in doing so.

I'm not interested in taking sides in this debate publically and have been perfectly clear in this thread today a few times with the important reasons I mentioned for the sake and health of the forum in that regard so I don't want to be quoted out of context pushing anyones personal agenda on the subject matter starting the flames going all over again. Understood?

We should all put the to rest and get back to the discussion of other drumming related topics as the forum was intended.

[crdirtRider856]

I'm a 71 year-old dude No one has the right to put a gag in someone's mouth because they feel offended.

Anyone that can say they re a 71 yr old dude is welcome to my "party"....While I agree with you about being "silenced" for stating a(n) believe/opinion, I respectfully add that as long as it s not so blatant, and more of an observasion,or personal experience opposed to say something like- :"_ _ _ IS everywhere, and thats all I have to say, and I wont say no more" Then we ll be just fine. Unfortunately, this will happen from time to time, and I think said guy should look outside of his own * box* and think about what they re saying, rather than just sayin it and then dissapearing into the fog, leaving anyone or everyone to decipher what has been said... We re all drummers, and we are all here(i hope) for the same basic reason---DRUMS., I dont even remember exactly where I was aiming this arrow, but it ll come back soon. And the "acid" trip, well it is what it is, how can someone categorize something like this...It is quite an "eye-opener" and can be a literally "life-changing" experience, Believe it or not....

[aydee]

people.. don't see eye to eye on the subjects and the once happy flow of information on drum related topics till then between certain individual members takes on a different less open tone dividing the membership up.


Wise words, worth reading again. A good enough reason to cork it. I'll shut up now, Stan : )

[Deltadrummer]

For myself, I don't like being told what can't be talked about. Talking about things is okay, right? After all, it's only talking, discussing, the old back-and-forth. Call it debating, call it dialectics, but I don't see why there should be anything to fear or be offended by, considering the vast amount of rubbish that we all get exposed to during to course of any day.
As to the argument that young people view these discussions, I say only this. So what? Are we supposed to provide young people with a sanitized view of what actually happens in life?
Also, I can see that there are some people here, who could well be very fine drummers indeed, who wish to put forward their religious ideas as motivations for their approach to the instrument, and I have no problem with that as long as they're ready for comments or even criticisms that may come from the other side.
It's life, yeah? I'm pretty sure we're all big enough to take it.
Having said that, rules are rules and we're all priviledged to have this site, so we're all in the position of having to respect the guide-lines set down by those who have provided this site for us to use.
Still, it's fun to see just how much you can get away with...

Well, said. It is a shame that their are certain taboo subjects, and that is a reality of life beyond this forum.

As far as religion and politics, they are so vast a subject to discuss, with so many complications and subtleties; but they often become couched as believer v. non-believer, liberal v conservative. Are most people's belief systems that simplified? I would hope not.

If we talk about Christianity, whose Christianity are we talking about? Catholics, Pentacostals, Unitarians, Jews for Jesus, United Church of Christ? They all have their own belief system, and they do not agree, even about the most fundamental theological concepts.

The on-line forum is a sound bite (word-bite) world. I think that that limits the scope of what it can actually do. But I personally would rather suffer through the perils of free open discussion, than to read through the endless list of favorite albums, favorite tunes or favorite drummers that forum posts on the internet can become.

[Muckster]

That's it!!!!!!!

I'm going over to a religious forum and shake things up by talking drums.

[Bonzo]

There are visitors to this forum of all religious backgrounds and beliefs. I have noticed that the main forums on this site are being frequently used to discuss Christian religious topics. I think that the people who are using the main forums for Christian discussions are offending others who don't share the same interest in their threads.

Why are you reading threads that offend you? We all have the ability to choose which threads are pertinent to us. I don't read every DW thread in it's entirety. I scan the topics and determine whether or not a thread is worth my attention. If you choose to read through something that is sensitive to you then you are choosing to be offended.

[mrchattr]

I think, in the end, that the Christian Drummers Get All The Work thread is the only one that really offended people, be they atheists, of another religion, Christians who disagreed, or Christians who got insulted by other people in that thread. This happened because that thread became a full-blown religious discussion, with nothing about drumming after the first few posts. Not good, and I don't think we should have that again.

With that said, a lot of religious drummers, and it seems that especially Christian drummers, believe that their drumming comes from God, should be used for God, etc. There is no reason to say they can't express that. In a thread about "what motivates you to drum," if the answer is "God," then that person should be allowed to express that. And should have the ability to express that without getting banned, or without having every atheist drummer jump down his throat and call him an idiot.

So I think that purely religious discussions should be banned from here, and those posts that are purely religious, without relating to drumming, should be deleted. That way, when the conversation goes:

Person 1: All this bad stuff has happened lately, I feel like God might be telling me to quit drumming.
Person 2: Nah, stick with it, man, we all have hard times.
Person 3: God doesn't exist, so no.
Person 4: Person 3 is an idiot, and will burn in hell
Person 5: Hey man, no worries, if you love drumming, you'll stay with it.

Person 3 and 4 would have their posts deleted, and be given warnings (which can lead to bannings), but the actual discussion, about what the drummer is feeling, related to drumming, can stay.

This allows for stuff like, "Question about drumming in church," "Here are pics of the new kit at my church," "I play Christian rock," and stuff like that, but leave out, "If you don't know Jesus, you will burn in flames for all eternity, loser," or "If you believe in God you're an idiot and when worms are eating you, you will have wasted your pitiful life, loser."

[mikei]

That's it!!!!!!!

I'm going over to a religious forum and shake things up by talking drums.LMAO

That is great. I will join you!

[jonescrusher]

Not good, and I don't think we should have that again.




Then why did you persist in posting in that thread?

Any thread in which there's a sniff of religion will envitably 'flourish', because there will always be handful of posters who can't resist saying their piece. As has been said below, it's your responsibility to stop yourself from posting. And i'm not convinced by those claiming to be offended by the subject matter, as they seem to be first in the queue to get involved. Aside from all of that, the subject is incredibly boring, as the same banal arguments are regurgitated. It's more interesting reading threads about drum racks.

[iwilliams]

Colleagues,

Come on, give an inch and let us go back in drums!

Greetings to all,

[jay norem]

Come on, give an inch and let us go back in drums!


You'd think that someone has suggested that the whole site be re-dedicated to religious discussions. I don't see anything wrong with the occasional thread about the subject popping up from time to time. One little thread isn't going to force people to stop talking about ride-cymbal technique or double-bass-drum speed or whatever.

[stasz]

That's it!!!!!!!

I'm going over to a religious forum and shake things up by talking drums.

Tell me which forum and I'm there with you. Drumming pastors get all the work!!

[bobdadruma]

I think, in the end, that the Christian Drummers Get All The Work thread is the only one that really offended people, be they atheists, of another religion, Christians who disagreed, or Christians who got insulted by other people in that thread. This happened because that thread became a full-blown religious discussion, with nothing about drumming after the first few posts. Not good, and I don't think we should have that again.

With that said, a lot of religious drummers, and it seems that especially Christian drummers, believe that their drumming comes from God, should be used for God, etc. There is no reason to say they can't express that. In a thread about "what motivates you to drum," if the answer is "God," then that person should be allowed to express that. And should have the ability to express that without getting banned, or without having every atheist drummer jump down his throat and call him an idiot.

So I think that purely religious discussions should be banned from here, and those posts that are purely religious, without relating to drumming, should be deleted. That way, when the conversation goes:

Person 1: All this bad stuff has happened lately, I feel like God might be telling me to quit drumming.
Person 2: Nah, stick with it, man, we all have hard times.
Person 3: God doesn't exist, so no.
Person 4: Person 3 is an idiot, and will burn in hell
Person 5: Hey man, no worries, if you love drumming, you'll stay with it.

Person 3 and 4 would have their posts deleted, and be given warnings (which can lead to bannings), but the actual discussion, about what the drummer is feeling, related to drumming, can stay.

This allows for stuff like, "Question about drumming in church," "Here are pics of the new kit at my church," "I play Christian rock," and stuff like that, but leave out, "If you don't know Jesus, you will burn in flames for all eternity, loser," or "If you believe in God you're an idiot and when worms are eating you, you will have wasted your pitiful life, loser." Thank you very much. You nailed it. That was the meaning for my posting this thread. I just wish that I was as literate as you.

[Deltadrummer]

There are somethings that people don't want others discussing. The whole thing speaks (doublespeaks) of Orwell. Banning discussions. What's next banning books? That Drum Wisdom book, people are starting to talk about it and I don't like that book. I think I'll go on and make some comments that are snide and sarcastic, you know that take cheap shots at people. Then I'll leave.

I said what I wanted on the religious thread and then went back from time to time to see if it had gone anywhere. One of the posters was Bernard, and he made several interesting points. Ultimately, it is up to Bernard anyway. I think people just need to grow up and realize that open and free discussion means hearing things you don't like. And if you don't like it, don't post and go to another thread to start your own discussion.

What do you call a priest who sleeps walks?

A roamin' Catholic.

What do you call a rabbi who gets stuck accidentally at a monastery?

A shmunk.

What was the name of your German audiologist?

Herr Bettah.

Where's Mel Brooks when you need him?

[toddy]

I don't understand why there is an issue?
People who want to discuss religion can do so, people who don't want to discuss religion don't have to. In the end the people throwing random rude remarks will be policed and belittled by those who are actually interested in the discussion.

[jay norem]

Then why did you persist in posting in that thread?

Any thread in which there's a sniff of religion will envitably 'flourish', because there will always be handful of posters who can't resist saying their piece. As has been said below, it's your responsibility to stop yourself from posting. And i'm not convinced by those claiming to be offended by the subject matter, as they seem to be first in the queue to get involved. Aside from all of that, the subject is incredibly boring, as the same banal arguments are regurgitated. It's more interesting reading threads about drum racks.

Ah, I see. Then why are you posting in this thread, pray tell?

[jonescrusher]

Ah, I see. Then why are you posting in this thread, pray tell?

To say my piece, as with any other post. Remember that this is less a thread on religion as it is a thread concerning the forum.

[GetAgrippa]

I was an atheist till 47. Being a scientist makes it difficult to be a person of faith. I did note however that Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. have been one of the few venues that have systematically encourage peace, love, and tried to help people find their humanity. Oddly enough a "sprititual" and "prophetic" experience got me pondering my own spiritual nature. Something I had a difficult time dealing with to be honest because being a scientist I am skeptical by nature. I explored many faiths, and perhaps due to my culture and in particular my wife's beliefs I did settle into Christianity of sorts. As a biologist I also believe there is a biological aspect to spirituality. The ancestors to modern man practiced ritual burials-a hint towards spirituality. I tend to think it serves both a biological and evolutionary role in our growth just as much as science. The same ability of logic and reason of modern man gave rise to both religion and science to address different domains of life an different issues. Almost all cultures throughout history have powerful spiritual aspects. I always liked Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth, because spirituality has driven music, art, science, culture, and our society. 98% of the people of this planet are peoples of faith. It would also make biological sense that there will be those who lack or don't need this spirituality. Much as many believe homosexuality is biological and another variant of human sexuality-religions probably are similar. Having spent a greater part of my life as an atheist I appreciate this mentality (and to be honest I was jaded in this regard), but now I truly appreciate spirituality and how it can help people cope and inspires many. Further there are many parallels in most religions and perhaps there is a cosmic force, cosmic consciousness, and something other than a simple biological understanding. In any case I respect others beliefs as I would hope other respect mine. I am not saying I'm right but being "right" isn't what it is about-is it. Peace and love and being human and not just another animal on this planet is what I aspire. We are the only animal to try to understand life, our planet, and the universe. I am always struck how insignificant we are in this huge expanse of the universe, and what lies beyond the universe (the universe is expanding into what??). I do believe music is very spiritual and it is a universal language that needs no translators. I think it best to leave poltics and religion at the door and lets talk about our universal language-music.

[harryconway]

..... this is less a thread on religion as it is a thread concerning the forum.
Indeed, it is. My outlook on it is, this is Bernhard's house. He has house rules. He and the mods, NJ and DB do a terrific job of hosting. If they want to be lenient with those rules, from time to time, enjoy their hospitality. Don't abuse it. I hear the terms "freedom of speech", "censorship", etc., being thrown around. Funny, I don't recall Drummerworld being a democracy. Don't recall it having a "Constitution" guaranteeing us anything. It's Bernhard's dime. So I don't think we are protected by "freedom of speech". People who want a really, really, really long leash can (for $5 a month) start up a typepad blog and rant morning, noon, and night about any and all the taboo subjects (religion, gun control, abortion, politics, etc). On your dime, do whatever you want to do. On Bernhard's time, please respect the man. He's payin' something like $3.5K a month to throw this party.

[Deltadrummer]

To say my piece, as with any other post. Remember that this is less a thread on religion as it is a thread concerning the forum.


That is the subtle distinction, isn't it? Religion is the example of the free and open exchange of ideas. I think that bringing in extra-drumming ideas is good. Drumming is often about these things, and we can all see that it is certainly about politics. Behind this discussion is more of the same political maneuvering that the thread is about.

Who gets to say what is appropriate? What happens if I don't like what you're saying? One thing for sure is that the forum does not police itself. You could ask someone "why is your head is up your ass," and the other posters won't say anything. In the words of Neil Peart, "even if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." If you decide not to bring in the ideas or to banish them, you are making a choice about these ideas based on your own personal feelings. If you decide to advocate against their inclusion are you not doing the same?

[GetAgrippa]

Many good posits made, but since it is highly likely we will never exhaust the subject of music and drumming, then why clutter the topic with diversions that are neither here nor there. I don't think it is about freedom of speech, blah,blah, blah, but about being on topic. This is Drummerworld-the topic-drums, drumming, and perscussion. I think this topic alone can be volatile enough without adding extracurricular topics. I love Drummerworld. What a resource and wealth of info and super nice folks-like Bernhard. He has made a wonderful contribution to the world of music and drumming. Very inspirational.

[Deltadrummer]

Yes, talking about most anything with a wide range of personalities from all over the world is certainly volatile. Let's remember that the thread that was most volatile thread this week was not the Christianity thread, but the one on jazz.

[jjmason777]

Yes, talking about most anything with a wide range of personalities from all over the world is certainly volatile. Let's remember that the thread that was most volatile thread this week was not the Christianity thread, but the one on jazz.

That's because God hates jazz. (Easy, I am WAY kidding here!!)
But seriously folks, I don't think God cares about drumming any more than he cares about athletes winning games, etc. (My opinion). So maybe this is not the place to discuss anything irrelevant to DRUMS and DRUMMING?

[blastface]

Satan...................

[Deltadrummer]

That's because God hates jazz. (Easy, I am WAY kidding here!!)
But seriously folks, I don't think God cares about drumming any more than he cares about athletes winning games, etc. (My opinion). So maybe this is not the place to discuss anything irrelevant to DRUMS and DRUMMING?

I don't mean to over belabor a point; but can you see that your post exemplifies what I have been saying? You don't think that God is involved with drumming or running a race for that matter, so you don't think this is the place to discuss it. It is a decision (your opinion) that you have made based on personal feelings and beliefs. And I am happy that you have made that decision. It is a great decision.

But what about somebody who has not made that decision or come to that conclusion? What about somebody who differs and believes that God is the reason why they drum or run? Is not their decision just as great for them as yours is for you? Is not excluding those ideas discriminatory against that person?

[jay norem]

Let's remember that the thread that was most volatile thread this week was not the Christianity thread, but the one on jazz.

That was because (as is always the case when the discussion turns to jazz) there were so many adamant posts made by people who don't know what they're talking about, people who somehow think that it's a sort of birthright they have as drummers to have some "knowledge," something relevant to say about a kind of music they've obviously never really played.
You don't know jazz unless you play it. Period. It's not in books. It's not in magazine articles.
Anyway, why would anybody want to play jazz anymore? There's no money in it, no fame. You want to kill your career? Call yourself a jazz drummer.
I don't participate in any of the metal threads because I don't know anything about that, but as soon as a jazz thread comes up everybody walks in acting as though they're seasoned pros, talking about "Elvin" and "Tony." Oh yeah, Buddy Rich gets mentioned a lot too.
Between jazz and religion I'd rather talk about religion. At least the Christians know what they're talking about where their religion is concerned!

[aydee]

Where's Mel Brooks when you need him?

The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know youre wishing that we'd go away
So come on all you ----s and you -----s
We got some good news for all of yous
You'd better change your point of views today
Cause the inquisitions here and its here to say.

[blade123]

There are plenty of religious forums online. Go there if you want to discuss religion. I like www.mindusion.com
I come here to discuss drums. I don't know why this topic isn't locked yet. Everyone should just ignore this thread and go on to discuss drums. I am an atheist and very interested in religion and discuss it all the time, but I don't want to get into it while I'm discussing drums. Actually, my drum teacher is a devout christian and is a gospel drummer. He doesn't preach and just teaches drums. If he started preaching, I would leave. I'm sure EVERYONE on here feels the same way. Atheists, agnostics, and theists all come here to discuss DRUMS, not the afterlife. The only reason why these threads stay alive is because religion is a hot subject and everyone needs to put their 2 cents in. If there's a mod online, please delete this...

[jay norem]

There are plenty of religious forums online. Go there if you want to discuss religion. I like www.mindusion.com
I come here to discuss drums. I don't know why this topic isn't locked yet. Everyone should just ignore this thread and go on to discuss drums. I am an atheist and very interested in religion and discuss it all the time, but I don't want to get into it while I'm discussing drums. Actually, my drum teacher is a devout christian and is a gospel drummer. He doesn't preach and just teaches drums. If he started preaching, I would leave. I'm sure EVERYONE on here feels the same way. Atheists, agnostics, and theists all come here to discuss DRUMS, not the afterlife. The only reason why these threads stay alive is because religion is a hot subject and everyone needs to put their 2 cents in. If there's a mod online, please delete this...

If religion is, as you say, a "hot subject" then why can't it be discussed among drummers? I find the idea that all drummers have to talk about is what kind of heads they like to use to be a little insulting. You mean that as a drummer all I'm supposed to think about is what my next ride cymbal will be?
None of the the musicians I hang out with ever talk about music. We talk about politics, religion, philosophy, electric bills, you name it. Why can't us drummers do the same here?

[Steamer]

That was because (as is always the case when the discussion turns to jazz) there were so many adamant posts made by people who don't know what they're talking about, people who somehow think that it's a sort of birthright they have as drummers to have some "knowledge," something relevant to say about a kind of music they've obviously never really played.
You don't know jazz unless you play it. Period. It's not in books. It's not in magazine articles.
Anyway, why would anybody want to play jazz anymore? There's no money in it, no fame. You want to kill your career? Call yourself a jazz drummer.
I don't participate in any of the metal threads because I don't know anything about that, but as soon as a jazz thread comes up everybody walks in acting as though they're seasoned pros, talking about "Elvin" and "Tony." Oh yeah, Buddy Rich gets mentioned a lot too.
Between jazz and religion I'd rather talk about religion. At least the Christians know what they're talking about where their religion is concerned!


Easy solution. Simply cut all the talk and just get out and play the actual music called jazz with people who love it just as much like i've done going on 37 years now and forget the huge headache of words the subject of jazz has become on the internet. Let the music in a real context in life speak for itself for those who actually play and enjoy the performing of jazz as their life's blood. That's all that matters really in my view to each individual involved since actions speak louder than words in my view.

Work's for me and has far more long lasting satisfying end results based on my personal and professional experience on the subject. Less stressful and draining on your creative energy.

Now back to the topic of religious discussions if you wish....

[blade123]

If religion is, as you say, a "hot subject" then why can't it be discussed among drummers? I find the idea that all drummers have to talk about is what kind of heads they like to use to be a little insulting. You mean that as a drummer all I'm supposed to think about is what my next ride cymbal will be?
None of the the musicians I hang out with ever talk about music. We talk about politics, religion, philosophy, electric bills, you name it. Why can't us drummers do the same here?
True, we CAN discuss other things, but discuss them at the proper places. I (and I'm sure there's plenty more out there) don't want to have to sift through religious debate to get to the drumming. Like I don't want to sift through drumming talk to get to the religious debate on the religious forums I go to. There's some people on here that may be religious or that may not be religious but they all come here to discuss drumming, not religion or politics. My friends I discuss religion, but at the proper times. You ever have that one annoying friend/person who always needs to talk about unrelated things while you're having a conversation? You're talking about one thing, and he always brings up something new for no reason other than the fact that he was bored? That's what it feels like. I know I can just skip over this thread, but once they allow religious talk on here it's going to seep through into everything.

Jay, I would love to discuss religion with you, PM me(or go to that forum I posted) if you want to talk religion. I have nothing against religious debate, I just want it in the proper places.

EDIT:Maybe not now, it's late and I'm going to bed, but I'll get back to you tomorrow or sometime this weekend.

[murphinelli]

That was because (as is always the case when the discussion turns to jazz) there were so many adamant posts made by people who don't know what they're talking about, people who somehow think that it's a sort of birthright they have as drummers to have some "knowledge," something relevant to say about a kind of music they've obviously never really played.
You don't know jazz unless you play it. Period. It's not in books. It's not in magazine articles.
Anyway, why would anybody want to play jazz anymore? There's no money in it, no fame. You want to kill your career? Call yourself a jazz drummer.
I don't participate in any of the metal threads because I don't know anything about that, but as soon as a jazz thread comes up everybody walks in acting as though they're seasoned pros, talking about "Elvin" and "Tony." Oh yeah, Buddy Rich gets mentioned a lot too.
Between jazz and religion I'd rather talk about religion. At least the Christians know what they're talking about where their religion is concerned!

trying to talk jazz on this forum is a lot like trying to talk politics or religion.

bernhard, please update your rules:
1. no religion
2. no politics
3. no jazz

this will make dw a much more peaceful place...and boring...

[harryconway]

It is, really, so simple. Straight from the forum rules..."First and foremost please keep in mind that this is a moderated forum. There are plenty of places on the Internet where you can pretty much do and say whatever you want. This is not one of them."......."Using the Off Topic Lounge
The original purpose of the Off Topic forum was to discuss subjects that were musical in nature but not necessarily drum-related. We have allowed a bit of leeway with this definition, but we have discovered through trial and error what fits here and what doesn't. Please do not discuss extremely trivial matters. Do not post jokes or poetry. Do not discuss politics or religion. Do not post links to “hilarious” videos of stupid people doing stupid things. If you, in your best judgment, create a post or thread that is deleted from this or any other forum topic, understand that we have the final say regarding what is appropriate and what is not. Unfortunately more posts are deleted from this topic than all others combined, and more members are banned based on their actions in this sub-forum. For these reasons, please do not abuse this area of the forum, and save us all the hassle involved in settling disputes that could easily have been avoided in the first place."

[bobdadruma]

What if someone had said," I have been trying to play jazz and I just don't get it. I don't think that God wants me to play jazz." Should the response to that person be "There is no God and you're a fool for believing in God" or "Why don't you try playing jazz for Satan"? I Think that a more appropriate response would be "I play jazz and perhaps I can help you. Please describe the problems that you are having." Isn't that last type of response more in tune with the spirt of Drummerworld? Keep in mind that the first two responses were generated as a direct result of religious topics that were being discussed in another thread.

[DogBreath]

Try joining a religious or automotive or political or knitting forum and see how receptive they are when you keep wanting to talk about flamacues or debate the virtues of birch versus maple.

Really, I'm surprised that this discussion is still going on. The rules are posted, they've been quoted here, and Bernhard has reiterated his feelings on the matter. Discussion closed. No religion, no politics, and play nice. Talk about drummers and drumming on every subforum except the Off-Topic Lounge, discuss pretty much anything marginally related to music there (and some things not), and save anything that you like to your own hard drive as server space may be opened up at any time by deletion of material. Everyone knows the rules. Please be respectful of our host. Thank you.