Tom Grosset's Jazz combo / Holiday Inn gig

[tomgrosset]

Hey guys,

I dug up some old material and decided to put it up on YouTube. Hope you guys check it out. The first tune is Watermelon Man and the second tune is All of Me. The Jazz combo consists of me on drums, Bob Howey on saxaphone / clarinet, Scott Thompson on piano, Dennis Moore on guitar, and Darcy Zelko on bass. This performance took place on March 29th, 2008 at the Holiday Inn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEYKNYPmzvc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFvQYM3JyUI

-Tom

[aydee]

Good stuff, Tom. All of Me swung like a monkey. Watermelon man seemed a little top-of-the-beat for me ( maybe a youtube quirk ? ), though the playing was good- I loved the reversing/variations of the ride cymbal pattern.

[The Colonel]

Hi Tom.

I'll try to be as constructive and honest as I can.

I'm not sure of where you live and if it's possible but one of the first things I thought was "This guy needs to play with people better than him" because you're not. I can't really say much about your interplay with the other musicians because I didn't think there was much for you to work with. I mean, if they're good friends and all, I hope I'm not offending you, but that's what I thought.

As for your stuff - and please take this the best way possible, because I hope it helps: For all of your hand speed, it felt like at times - on both pieces that you weren't sure what to do with it. On Watermelon Man, on the breaks at the end of the form, a lot of your rolls/fills leading back towards the top of the head were a little sloppy/unsure and the time seemed to hiccup/falter a bit. Not to glaze over anything but I'd say "Listen to lots of Billy Higgins" - that came to mind a few times. Maybe his Charles Lloyd stuff on ECM like "The Water is Wide". Going back to what I was saying in the previous paragraph about the rest of the band, I'd say that all those uptempo ride patterns didn't work musically with what the band was able to produce. Lots of busy work from you (nice chops, obviously) but not enhancing what was going on around you. Seemed almost like a distraction to make up for the slack from the others. Might be hard for them to play phrases within the beats/rhythms/etc while you're occupying every possible space.

On All of Me, to go along with what I said about your hand speed, and I know it's just one track, but it seemed like your feet are underdeveloped. I thought playing "four on the floor" was stupid and basic, until I saw Yoron Israel at a jazz camp playing all sorts of Tony-ish stuff *while playing "4 on the floor"* unless he was breaking up the rhythms - and the band - all top-level players from NYC/etc - couldn't talk enough about how great it was to play with him. He gave such a foundation - even when taking it out - that you couldn't help but be inspired. You went with the bass drum on 1 & 3 which is cool, but after hearing some of your broken-triplet stuff between the snare/bass, I really think you should concentrate on that 4/Floor stuff and get those feet a little closer to your ridiculously fast hands. In bebop, they say the drummer "drops bombs" and all - but those bombs are in relation to something - either with, or to exclamate [is that a word? my computer is saying "no"] what the other players are doing. Probably more to do with the recording, but some of those bombs you're dropping seemed to be more out of just doing them for their sake rather than to compliment/enhance something.

Also, you took off when you brought the rim clicks in later in the solos. You seemed aware of it, 'cause you tried bringing it back a little later on. So that's good. Sometimes I would hear something I thought was gonna be great and thought "OMG! I just took it up about 20 clicks!" and had no idea at the time. Oddly enough, as I've always been considered a "jazz drummer" - my time didn't solidify until I'd played some "dumbed-down" rock stuff (my quotations, as I thought I was above it at the time) for more than 4 times through the Carmine Apice book I'd started out with!

I say all this with the best intentions, because you actually remind me of me and my playing at your age. I was going 200 MPH whenever I could, and sometimes my time would falter (speed up/slow down) and I thought I could roll/fill my way through that stuff.

The only other thing that would maybe concern me is that your ride might be the reason for your articulation and not with how you're playing it. It's a very ping-y ride and I wonder what you would sound like on a much "wetter" sounding cymbal. Your grip looks so relaxed/loose [on Watermelon Man's uptempo stuff] almost to a fault. I guess I'm just trying to say Make sure your articulation is mostly on YOU and not mostly on your ride.

I don't mean to sound so negative, because obviously you have a ton of positives. I just hope some of this is constructive for you. I find most of these threads to delve into "Sounds great!" and nothing much is accomplished for the thread-starter other than a feeling of "Sweet, they like me!...and I need to fix this one thing here"

Sorry...I'm going through a personal loss, and I love to analyze stuff and it's helping me get my mind off it. Again - hope it helps.

[tomgrosset]

Thanks aydee and Colonel.

-Colonel
I've been told before that I need to work with better musicians, but it is because of where I'm located and these are the professionals here so there's not much I can do about it - it's a little frustrating at times.

And I was playing "4 on the floor" and I do it often (I don't think the camera picked it up), because it really makes the band sound nice. I do it with the big band all the time too. I always like to bring those clicks in and lock the band in tight and keep it simple. That's how I roll.

I agree about the tone of the cymbal. It sounds very pingy. I'm considering getting some new cymbals. A Bosphorus cymbal would be nice.

By the way, it looks like my posture is uncomfortable and my technique looks tight but it's only because I like to mimic the movements of some of my favorite drummers. I'm not in any uncomfortable position whatsoever. I just feel like I can get a nice sound out of the cymbals/drums when I approach it with the way I'm positioned. It's hard to describe. I just think that your technique should be your own thing and that you should train it to make the sound you want and not worry about how it looks.

I appreciate your criticism. I always like to take it into consideration and I like having things to work on. My ears don't hear everything =)

[The Colonel]

Thanks aydee and Colonel.

-Colonel
I've been told before that I need to work with better musicians, but it is because of where I'm located and these are the professionals here so there's not much I can do about it - it's a little frustrating at times.

And I was playing "4 on the floor" and I do it often (I don't think the camera picked it up), because it really makes the band sound nice. I do it with the big band all the time too. I always like to bring those clicks in and lock the band in tight and keep it simple. That's how I roll.

I agree about the tone of the cymbal. It sounds very pingy. I'm considering getting some new cymbals. A Bosphorus cymbal would be nice.

By the way, it looks like my posture is uncomfortable and my technique looks tight but it's only because I like to mimic the movements of some of my favorite drummers. I'm not in any uncomfortable position whatsoever. I just feel like I can get a nice sound out of the cymbals/drums when I approach it with the way I'm positioned. It's hard to describe. I just think that your technique should be your own thing and that you should train it to make the sound you want and not worry about how it looks.

I appreciate your criticism. I always like to take it into consideration and I like having things to work on. My ears don't hear everything =)

Hey Tom,

Yeah, I think I've read somewhere on here about you saying "not too many people to play with here". In that case, I strongly suggest playing along to albums. And when you do - you can go about it a few different ways: I like to first just "play along" with a disc - sometimes doing it before having heard it at all - just throw yourself in there and see what happens. Afterwards, listen to it for a bit, get the songs/structures down and then really get into it. Also - after playing your own thing - try to "mimic" the drummer's style. Is it Roy Haynes' "snap crackle pop" style (listen to him on Trane's "Newport '63" album and hear the difference between his style and Elvin's - totally night and day! - or is it Joe Chambers' drum-centric aplomb? Maybe it's Philly Joe's rudimentary snare approach with that slick style of his... I always liked listening to their licks, listening to what's happening there and ask myself WHY did they play that there? One of my favorite tracks to play along to is Miles' "So What" on the Complete Conert '64 or "Four & More" album (same thing - if you don't have it pick up The Complete Concert. They're playing So What uptempo and Tony drops all sorts of bombs in there and some really great snare/cymbal work. Another great track to play along with is Art Blakey's "Free For All" (by Wayne Shorter). His playing is so intense throughout the entire track! He never lets up, so playing along to it I would tell myself exactly that: "Don't let up, but still be musical. Don't play the same things because he sure isn't!" It's almost like a constant solo but it's not - and it's 100% amazing and a total blast to play along to.

Sorry - I missed the 4-on-the-floor I guess. I was referring towards the beginning of the piece (All of Me) - where you're picking up your leg for the 1 & 3 and then later not seeing/hearing the bass drum much except for the snare/bass interplay. If you're doing it, great!

I didn't say anything about your posture because of exactly what you said yourself: I have some friends who seem very awkward behind the kit, but that's how they move which translates into what their sound is. But having said that, and you bringing up your posture/movement-style:

Listening to them again, and closing my eyes the entirety of the piece[s], your sound is on the "stiff" side which could come from your posture. Jeff Ballard (perhaps one of your favorites?) looks very stiff (VERY stiff) when he's playing, but he translates that into a very loose/relaxed sound. Obviously it takes time, but I would say your sound hasn't been able to get past the qualities of your movements yet. When I was 17 I studied with a great teacher who told me I was "rigid". "Your arm is too stiff - it needs to move - needs to breathe!" But also - told me to pretend that a string was coming off the top of my head being pulled straight up - and I noticed how much I was slouched. And after he told me to play what I was playing and try *breathing* deeply/relaxed (in the nose out the mouth) I noticed how much I was holding my breat (which tightens you up)

Buddy Rich said he tried holding his breath and phrasing how a sax player would phrase. I read that as a boy of 10 or so and thought "that's the way *I'm* gonna do it too!" Years later I realized, or came to find out that I don't really like his playing style and that maybe he didn't really do that at all anyway and here I was holding my breath for no reason, blocking my flow - tightening me up... He'd have me play a complex pattern and when I got it he'd say "Okay - now keep playing that and think about only your breathing." Of course when my concentration left my limbs and went to my lungs, the pattern would collapse. But over time, I was able to do it, and it makes everything I do now more relaxed - maybe not just in a "looks relaxed/looks stiff" kind of way - but more in a "not getting caught up in my breathing patterns" relaxed.

There's no "one way" or "right way" - but I thought I'd offer up something that has helped me. Of course, when I got to study with Nasheet Waits - after working a few years on being "super-relaxed" he had me play up-tempo stuff and told me "you're too relaxed"!!! LOL - He said my right hand was so loose that there was no articulation on the cymbal - then he sat down - looking as loose as can be and articulated the hell out of the cymbal at 400 bpm. Told me to tighten my grip a little and experiment with how to pull sounds out of the cymbal with different tightness in the hands.

Okay - I've blathered enough...

[tomgrosset]

Hey Tom,

Yeah, I think I've read somewhere on here about you saying "not too many people to play with here". In that case, I strongly suggest playing along to albums. And when you do - you can go about it a few different ways: I like to first just "play along" with a disc - sometimes doing it before having heard it at all - just throw yourself in there and see what happens. Afterwards, listen to it for a bit, get the songs/structures down and then really get into it. Also - after playing your own thing - try to "mimic" the drummer's style. Is it Roy Haynes' "snap crackle pop" style (listen to him on Trane's "Newport '63" album and hear the difference between his style and Elvin's - totally night and day! - or is it Joe Chambers' drum-centric aplomb? Maybe it's Philly Joe's rudimentary snare approach with that slick style of his... I always liked listening to their licks, listening to what's happening there and ask myself WHY did they play that there? One of my favorite tracks to play along to is Miles' "So What" on the Complete Conert '64 or "Four & More" album (same thing - if you don't have it pick up The Complete Concert. They're playing So What uptempo and Tony drops all sorts of bombs in there and some really great snare/cymbal work. Another great track to play along with is Art Blakey's "Free For All" (by Wayne Shorter). His playing is so intense throughout the entire track! He never lets up, so playing along to it I would tell myself exactly that: "Don't let up, but still be musical. Don't play the same things because he sure isn't!" It's almost like a constant solo but it's not - and it's 100% amazing and a total blast to play along to.

Sorry - I missed the 4-on-the-floor I guess. I was referring towards the beginning of the piece (All of Me) - where you're picking up your leg for the 1 & 3 and then later not seeing/hearing the bass drum much except for the snare/bass interplay. If you're doing it, great!

I didn't say anything about your posture because of exactly what you said yourself: I have some friends who seem very awkward behind the kit, but that's how they move which translates into what their sound is. But having said that, and you bringing up your posture/movement-style:

Listening to them again, and closing my eyes the entirety of the piece[s], your sound is on the "stiff" side which could come from your posture. Jeff Ballard (perhaps one of your favorites?) looks very stiff (VERY stiff) when he's playing, but he translates that into a very loose/relaxed sound. Obviously it takes time, but I would say your sound hasn't been able to get past the qualities of your movements yet. When I was 17 I studied with a great teacher who told me I was "rigid". "Your arm is too stiff - it needs to move - needs to breathe!" But also - told me to pretend that a string was coming off the top of my head being pulled straight up - and I noticed how much I was slouched. And after he told me to play what I was playing and try *breathing* deeply/relaxed (in the nose out the mouth) I noticed how much I was holding my breat (which tightens you up)

Buddy Rich said he tried holding his breath and phrasing how a sax player would phrase. I read that as a boy of 10 or so and thought "that's the way *I'm* gonna do it too!" Years later I realized, or came to find out that I don't really like his playing style and that maybe he didn't really do that at all anyway and here I was holding my breath for no reason, blocking my flow - tightening me up... He'd have me play a complex pattern and when I got it he'd say "Okay - now keep playing that and think about only your breathing." Of course when my concentration left my limbs and went to my lungs, the pattern would collapse. But over time, I was able to do it, and it makes everything I do now more relaxed - maybe not just in a "looks relaxed/looks stiff" kind of way - but more in a "not getting caught up in my breathing patterns" relaxed.

There's no "one way" or "right way" - but I thought I'd offer up something that has helped me. Of course, when I got to study with Nasheet Waits - after working a few years on being "super-relaxed" he had me play up-tempo stuff and told me "you're too relaxed"!!! LOL - He said my right hand was so loose that there was no articulation on the cymbal - then he sat down - looking as loose as can be and articulated the hell out of the cymbal at 400 bpm. Told me to tighten my grip a little and experiment with how to pull sounds out of the cymbal with different tightness in the hands.

Okay - I've blathered enough...

Thanks for the constructive criticism Colonel. The breathing part of it sounds very interesting.

[tomgrosset]

anyone else going to comment?

[stasz]

And they say speed isn't practical. Sorry I don't have much criticism to offer, nice playing. I enjoyed listening to your combo.

[tomgrosset]

And they say speed isn't practical. Sorry I don't have much criticism to offer, nice playing. I enjoyed listening to your combo.

Thanks. It doesn't matter if you don't have any criticism to offer. Dropping by and saying nice playing and saying you liked it is better than nothing man. Thanks again.

[Tutin]

Hey Tom, sorry I didn't comment sooner.

I really liked your videos. Particularly Watermelon man, it had a really nice feel to it. Your cymbal work is great and I don't agree with what the others have said about the cymbal tone. It highlights it, and I think the sound itself works. Mind you, I use a relatively Jazzy ride to play metal, that's just something I do so maybe I'm hearing it differently. From 4:40 I love the tune, you really shine there. You've got a great grasp on the dynamics which I respect because I'm working on them a lot right now. I'd say your footwork needs a little bit of brushing up, because it's not so tight the whole way through.

Plus, total respect for the blast beat at 6:40 haha!

The All of me video too was good. I agree with the timekeeping issue, but let's face it, nobody's ever perfect and it's usually only musicians who'll notice, unless it's really bad, which it wasn't. See that little left hand bit at 2:43? That kills me inside. Really impressive and it sounds great.

I could highlight a lot of points from these videos that I really liked and only a few that I could criticise you for, so well done! Really great stuff, glad to see your improving.

T

[NUTHA JASON]

good camera angle. watching your right hand is hypnotic. no critiscism just pleasure from me.
j

[tomgrosset]

good camera angle. watching your right hand is hypnotic. no critiscism just pleasure from me.
j

Thanks Jason! I'm glad you liked it. I've watched your videos as well and you also have similar camera angles when you're playing. You're a very solid drummer by the way.