Knowing the history of the drums

[mrchattr]

I feel compelled to start this thread. Feel free to comment, disagree, whatever, but yeah...

I think it's SO important that, as drummers, we spend a lot of time reading about, watching, and understanding the history of our instrument, as well as interviews with drummers, both past and present. It seems to me that a lot of younger drummers now (and I'm probably preaching to the choir, since people on this site are probably those who want to find more information, etc) don't care about the history of the instrument. A lot of people only care about the main style they play, and think that if someone does something differently than they do, that it's wrong, or just plain stupid. This really bothers me. To be the best drummer that you can be, I think it's important to know the history of the instrument, to know what the people who have carved a living for themselves with it have contributed, how they think, etc. I spend countless hours reading interviews, biographies, autobiographies, etc. I even love reading books by other instrumentalists, and reading how they talk about the drummers they played with. Miles Davis' autobiography has a WEALTH of stuff that can help you understand Philly Joe, Tony Williams, and many others.

- How many heavy metal guys don't realize that double bass started in big band drumming?
- How many guys use their ride to keep time in most songs, but don't know that was part of the bebop revolution?
- How many guys play matched grip and say Ringo sucked, when he's really the drummer you can credit for making it mainstream? The same is true with open hats/straight 8th rock patterns. (Again, not saying Ringo was the first to do these things, just the first to make them mainstream)
- How many drummers say you are doing something wrong if you break sticks, when Art Blakey broke more sticks than most of us can imagine?
- How many drummers say you suck if you drop sticks a lot, when Stewart Copeland says he drops a few times a night?

I have heard discussion or read threads on here that say "____________ is a stupid idea," or "If you do ______________, you suck." And so often, I think, "Really? Because that's what Carter Beauford does." Or, "That's what Buddy Rich did."

I guess I'm writing this just to encourage everyone who hasn't already taken the time to do it, to really start to understand the history of this awesome instrument...the mindsets and thoughts of the guys who have advanced it...how the best players today are thinking about it...and how drums are used in other cultures around the world. It's really helped my playing, and given me a fresh perspective on stuff. Who knows? Maybe your next awesome death-metal double bass solo can be partly inspired by Louie Bellson!?!?!?!

[stasz]

Amen, brother. There's so much information out there even though the trap set is such a young instrument. The good thing is even a young drummer (like myself) can find a wealth of information on drum set playing and like you said the great players in history. Like on this site for example, probably my biggest source. I know too many young drummers who don't know much at all about the history of the drums. (Official disclaimer: not that I know everything about the entire history of the drums!) And it does wonders for your playing when you do.

[ericmiles]

I basically agree with the points you are making, except I have a different take on young drummers.

It's not like back in the day, young drummers were well schooled in the history of drumming, but only now in the 21st century with all our crazy technology and ADD lifestyle young drummers don't know the history.

Young people almost NEVER care about history (always exceptions . . . ). Not just drumming, but in anything. It's just the nature of being young. I'll take myself as an example. Though I was always into music history, geo-political history used to be about the most boring topic ever. Only now that I'm a little older do I realize that truth is stranger than fiction, and that history is basically all violence, intrigue and sex.

My biggest pet peeve when people talk about music, is when people use the word "wrong." IMO, when making music, there is different, and there is opinion on what someone prefers or doesn't prefer. Knowing history is great, because you learn that for every time someone thinks something is wrong, that exact thing was probably done to marvelous effect in the past.

Oh, and for the record, music can never be wrong, but it can most definitely suck!

[Ironcobra]

I agree as well, I drop sticks all the time, not really anything wrong with it. I also break sticks, but not from hitting to hard, from gradually chewing through them with my cymbal edges, that's what's supposed to happen. I'm also guilty of using a grip that I doubt anyone has ever seen before, I invented it, but I guarantee many people would say it's wrong.

[Michael G]

Pfft, who needs to learn history, all I need are my double pedals and some speed metal.

[caddywumpus]

- How many drummers say you are doing something wrong if you break sticks, when Art Blakey broke more sticks than most of us can imagine?
- How many drummers say you suck if you drop sticks a lot, when Stewart Copeland says he drops a few times a night?

I have heard discussion or read threads on here that say "____________ is a stupid idea," or "If you do ______________, you suck." And so often, I think, "Really? Because that's what Carter Beauford does." Or, "That's what Buddy Rich did."


...So, are you saying that it's proper to break and drop sticks? Should we all aspire to do these things in our playing? Just because Mr. Blakey and Mr. Stewart did these things doesn't mean that those things are "okay", no matter how incredible of musicians they are (and they are two of my favorites, BTW).

I'm sure if you ask any professional or influential drummer, "Is there something about your playing or technique you'd like to get better at or wish you didn't do?", I'll bet that they wouldn't respond with, "No, actually, I've got it all figured out." I think that it just shows that none of us are "perfect"--whatever that would mean in this subjective art. Even the greats can have bad nights or have bad habits, just like the rest of us. People that would put anyone down are being pompous. However, we shouldn't use the rationale that "it's okay" for the rest of us, just because "so-and-so" did it.

We are all where we are on our musical journey. It's comforting to know that even those drummers who, in our eyes, have "made it", are still exploring and growing.

[Deltadrummer]

It's good to know the history of your instrument; but I don't know how imperative it is. As a teacher, for my student's first lesson, I spend 10 minutes just gong over the basic history of how the drums came to be a drum set. If I am really in a mood I will bring up names like Baby Dodds, Papa Jo Jones and Louis Bellson.

I think it's a little problematic when you start saying things like, this drummer did this or didn't do this and look how influential he was anyway. I'm sure, for example, Art Blakey, being the hard hitter he was, broke drum sticks. But in todays' world, so much more is readily known about hand technique; so you can learn how not to break sticks. I'm sure Stewart Copeland drops a lot of sticks; but he also played too fast, which was one of the issues of contention when the Police first broke up. Yes, it is good to know history. But it is also good to put that history in perspective and bring in a little bit of criticism.

The pianist Anton Rubenstein was known for playing a lot of wrong notes. When asked he answered, "how can I make music when there are so many notes in the way." He was a great pianist and a great interpreter of the romantic piano; but I am sure many other wrong note players didn't get a way with it.

[Tutin]

I feel I should probably point out, though I'm sure a lot of people know, that drummers used to be some of the highest paid people in the army, because they used to direct the soldiers.

Basically, each rudiment meant a different command like turn left, or right. For this reason the drummers would always be a big target. When I learned that I gained a whole new respect for the rudiments. So there we go!

T

[byronand]

We are all where we are on our musical journey. It's comforting to know that even those drummers who, in our eyes, have "made it", are still exploring and growing.

Amen to that! No one is ever completely satisfied. Below is an excerpt from an interview with Jeff Porcaro in 1991, when he was 37 years old, a year before his death:

Jeff: "I get real critical of myself. I can honestly say that, out of all the sessions I've done, there's probably only one where I was satisfied with the way it felt."

DRUM!: "Which record are you talking about?"

Jeff: "The Steely Dan tune "FM," which was just an overdub to a click track. That tune, for whatever reason, just felt the best to me. But I've never been happy, man. It's just so hard for me to listen to stuff I've played on. It just frustrates me."

http://www.effingham.net/bishop/JeffPorcaroInterview.htm

[mead50]

wow...so much to learn...where to start :|

[byronand]

wow...so much to learn...where to start :|

The place to start is by having fun and appreciate the journey! :)

No one good ever got there if he or she didn't enjoy the process.

[mead50]

The place to start is by having fun and appreciate the journey! :)

No one good ever got there if he or she didn't enjoy the process.

yea i was first taught that when i started.....10 months ago, enjoyed drums ever since

[Class A Drummer]

I feel compelled to start this thread. Feel free to comment, disagree, whatever, but yeah...

I think it's SO important that, as drummers, we spend a lot of time reading about, watching, and understanding the history of our instrument, as well as interviews with drummers, both past and present. It seems to me that a lot of younger drummers now (and I'm probably preaching to the choir, since people on this site are probably those who want to find more information, etc) don't care about the history of the instrument. A lot of people only care about the main style they play, and think that if someone does something differently than they do, that it's wrong, or just plain stupid. This really bothers me. To be the best drummer that you can be, I think it's important to know the history of the instrument, to know what the people who have carved a living for themselves with it have contributed, how they think, etc. I spend countless hours reading interviews, biographies, autobiographies, etc. I even love reading books by other instrumentalists, and reading how they talk about the drummers they played with. Miles Davis' autobiography has a WEALTH of stuff that can help you understand Philly Joe, Tony Williams, and many others.

- How many heavy metal guys don't realize that double bass started in big band drumming?
- How many guys use their ride to keep time in most songs, but don't know that was part of the bebop revolution?
- How many guys play matched grip and say Ringo sucked, when he's really the drummer you can credit for making it mainstream? The same is true with open hats/straight 8th rock patterns. (Again, not saying Ringo was the first to do these things, just the first to make them mainstream)
- How many drummers say you are doing something wrong if you break sticks, when Art Blakey broke more sticks than most of us can imagine?
- How many drummers say you suck if you drop sticks a lot, when Stewart Copeland says he drops a few times a night?

I have heard discussion or read threads on here that say "____________ is a stupid idea," or "If you do ______________, you suck." And so often, I think, "Really? Because that's what Carter Beauford does." Or, "That's what Buddy Rich did."

I guess I'm writing this just to encourage everyone who hasn't already taken the time to do it, to really start to understand the history of this awesome instrument...the mindsets and thoughts of the guys who have advanced it...how the best players today are thinking about it...and how drums are used in other cultures around the world. It's really helped my playing, and given me a fresh perspective on stuff. Who knows? Maybe your next awesome death-metal double bass solo can be partly inspired by Louie Bellson!?!?!?!
I dont think ive ever heard someone tell me or anyone that they are doing something wrong for being a "stick breaker" or dropping sticks.

Im just wondering about that thing you said about using a ride to keep time... How does that relate to bebop drumming? I use my left foot (on the hi hat), right foot (bass), and right hand (hi hat and ride) all to keep time. I would assume everyone else does.
Isn't a ride meant to be played generally in good time? Or to crash i guess.

Good thread though.

[Bart Hodge]

This is a really broad assumption.

How many guys play matched grip and say Ringo sucked, when he's really the drummer you can credit for making it mainstream? The same is true with open hats/straight 8th rock patterns. (Again, not saying Ringo was the first to do these things, just the first to make them mainstream)

[Deltadrummer]

This is a really broad assumption.

Well, the Beatles mainstreamed just about everything: the idea of being a musicians and being in a band. It's not really a broad assumption; it's just reality.

[mrchattr]

...So, are you saying that it's proper to break and drop sticks? Should we all aspire to do these things in our playing? Just because Mr. Blakey and Mr. Stewart did these things doesn't mean that those things are "okay", no matter how incredible of musicians they are (and they are two of my favorites, BTW).

I'm sure if you ask any professional or influential drummer, "Is there something about your playing or technique you'd like to get better at or wish you didn't do?", I'll bet that they wouldn't respond with, "No, actually, I've got it all figured out." I think that it just shows that none of us are "perfect"--whatever that would mean in this subjective art. Even the greats can have bad nights or have bad habits, just like the rest of us. People that would put anyone down are being pompous. However, we shouldn't use the rationale that "it's okay" for the rest of us, just because "so-and-so" did it.

We are all where we are on our musical journey. It's comforting to know that even those drummers who, in our eyes, have "made it", are still exploring and growing.

I never said that people shouldn't aspire to get better. I was very careful in my quote to say that I have heard/read people saying "If you break too many sticks, you are doing something wrong," (meaning like a major technique flaw, which people claim on here all the time) or "If you drop sticks, you suck." Which isn't true at all. Copeland doesn't suck. That's all I'm saying!

[mrchattr]

I dont think ive ever heard someone tell me or anyone that they are doing something wrong for being a "stick breaker" or dropping sticks.

Im just wondering about that thing you said about using a ride to keep time... How does that relate to bebop drumming? I use my left foot (on the hi hat), right foot (bass), and right hand (hi hat and ride) all to keep time. I would assume everyone else does.
Isn't a ride meant to be played generally in good time? Or to crash i guess.

Good thread though.

Basically, a real quick answer: If you listen to old big band records, drummers didn't use their ride cymbal to keep time...heck, a lot of them didn't even have ride cymbals (as we think of them today)...you couldn't get a 20" or 22" cymbal made, it just didn't happen. Time was kept with four on the floor bass drum hits, snare on two and four, and if the drummer played a pattern with his right hand, it was usually on the closed hi hats. When bebop musicians started playing really fast tempos (to exclude a lot of the "other" jazz guys), this switched. Max Roach was the first one to get known for riding on the ride to keep the tempo, because of how fast it was. He would play some variation of the spang-a-lang ride pattern we all know as the major jazz pattern, and that was the only real steady thing he played. He wouldn't play quarter notes on the bass drum, because it was so fast it wouldn't sound right...so he would use the bass drum for accents, known as "dropping bombs" in bebop. He would often keep the hi hat going on 2 and 4, but guys like Art Blakey started using the hi hat pedal to play accents and fast, almost roll-type parts with their right feet, instead of always keeping a 2 and 4 going. The snare would be used for accents and ghost notes. The only truly steady part was the ride cymbal, so that's where the tempo was coming from.

Miles talks in his autobiography about how when he played with Tony Williams, he had to pay attention to that ride, or Tony would leave him behind.

This is a really broad assumption.

Not really...find me famous drummers before him who did that stuff. Heck, if you listen to a lot of early rock 'n' roll records (the original Johnny B. Goode comes to mind), even though the guitar and bass were playing straight 8ths (or was the bass quarters? I forget, it's been a while...either way, there was a straight 8th pulse from the band), the hi hats were being played with a swing beat, meaning that every eighth note didn't line up. It's really hard to listen to, for me at least.

[caddywumpus]

I never said that people shouldn't aspire to get better. I was very careful in my quote to say that I have heard/read people saying "If you break too many sticks, you are doing something wrong," (meaning like a major technique flaw, which people claim on here all the time) or "If you drop sticks, you suck." Which isn't true at all. Copeland doesn't suck. That's all I'm saying!

Just because Art Blakey was a monster of a good player, it doesn't mean his technique wasn't "flawed" by today's standards.

One more piece of historical info. Back in the day, there wasn't a big frenzy about technique on the cymbals and kick drum. Most of the technique work was done on the snare. When you played a cymbal, you either did it with the tip of the stick (ride) or didn't (crash). When you played the kick drum, there wasn't a heated debate about "heel up" versus "heel down". Also, there was a time when shell construction of a drum kit just didn't matter at all. There was also a time when we didn't have many options for cymbals, or the alloy they were made of. We've come a long way in the sense that we're thinking and analyzing what we're doing more. There's so much information out there nowadays (videos, internet, mountains of books) and so many choices and paths to take that we're looking deeper into all aspects of drumming, trying to carve our own.

However, if there's a metal player that chooses to hit his cymbals at a 90 degree angle with the shoulder of the stick straight on and he posts a thread wondering why he's breaking so many sticks and cymbals, I am not going to post an answer to his thread in the vein of, "It's okay, Art Blakey did it all the time. Just keep doing what you're doing." It will be more like, "Hmm...your technique isn't serving you well, is it?"

[mrchattr]

Just because Art Blakey was a monster of a good player, it doesn't mean his technique wasn't "flawed" by today's standards.

One more piece of historical info. Back in the day, there wasn't a big frenzy about technique on the cymbals and kick drum. Most of the technique work was done on the snare. When you played a cymbal, you either did it with the tip of the stick (ride) or didn't (crash). When you played the kick drum, there wasn't a heated debate about "heel up" versus "heel down". Also, there was a time when shell construction of a drum kit just didn't matter at all. There was also a time when we didn't have many options for cymbals, or the alloy they were made of. We've come a long way in the sense that we're thinking and analyzing what we're doing more. There's so much information out there nowadays (videos, internet, mountains of books) and so many choices and paths to take that we're looking deeper into all aspects of drumming, trying to carve our own.

However, if there's a metal player that chooses to hit his cymbals at a 90 degree angle with the shoulder of the stick straight on and he posts a thread wondering why he's breaking so many sticks and cymbals, I am not going to post an answer to his thread in the vein of, "It's okay, Art Blakey did it all the time. Just keep doing what you're doing." It will be more like, "Hmm...your technique isn't serving you well, is it?"

That is true that Art's playing may have been flawed by todays standards...but I also talk with a lot of professional drummers. Derrico Watson, Steve Smith, Brendan Hill, Carter Beauford...the list goes on and on, of guys I have talked to who break a lot of sticks.

I'm not saying that breaks can't happen BECAUSE of bad technique...of course they can. But my point is that plenty of great drummers did, and do, break sticks. I love when a smooth jazz drummer who plays once or twice a month says something like, "Dude, you break sticks? You must not know what you're doing!" when I play mostly rock, frequently (20 hours or more a week spent drumming), and love the sound of rim shots, so use them as my main "2 and 4" hit a lot.

You seem to be approaching this from the perspective of me saying that anything you do is ok if someone did it and made it work for them. I'm not. But I am saying that people who speak in sweeping generalities (ie, you suck if you break sticks) often not only show a level of intolerance and a "holier-than-thou" attitude, but also show a glaring lack of knowledge of the history of their own instrument.

[Deathmetalconga]

Just because Art Blakey was a monster of a good player, it doesn't mean his technique wasn't "flawed" by today's standards.

One more piece of historical info. Back in the day, there wasn't a big frenzy about technique on the cymbals and kick drum. Most of the technique work was done on the snare. When you played a cymbal, you either did it with the tip of the stick (ride) or didn't (crash). When you played the kick drum, there wasn't a heated debate about "heel up" versus "heel down". Also, there was a time when shell construction of a drum kit just didn't matter at all. There was also a time when we didn't have many options for cymbals, or the alloy they were made of. We've come a long way in the sense that we're thinking and analyzing what we're doing more. There's so much information out there nowadays (videos, internet, mountains of books) and so many choices and paths to take that we're looking deeper into all aspects of drumming, trying to carve our own.

However, if there's a metal player that chooses to hit his cymbals at a 90 degree angle with the shoulder of the stick straight on and he posts a thread wondering why he's breaking so many sticks and cymbals, I am not going to post an answer to his thread in the vein of, "It's okay, Art Blakey did it all the time. Just keep doing what you're doing." It will be more like, "Hmm...your technique isn't serving you well, is it?"

Some very good observations and context here. I hadn't considered how things were, or the attitudes players had, in the first 50 years of the trap set. Makes sense.

[Michael G]

Basically, a real quick answer: If you listen to old big band records, drummers didn't use their ride cymbal to keep time...heck, a lot of them didn't even have ride cymbals (as we think of them today)...you couldn't get a 20" or 22" cymbal made, it just didn't happen. Time was kept with four on the floor bass drum hits, snare on two and four, and if the drummer played a pattern with his right hand, it was usually on the closed hi hats.

They played press rolls on the snare drum, the right hand hit on all 4 beats, and the left hand dragged across on 2 and 4. There were also a variety of other ways to keep time and add colors, but for the most part, that was the essential. Ride cymbals became popular in the late 30s irregardless and what became the standard of time keeping along with the hi-hat.

[Bart Hodge]

I was questioning more of the "Ringo influenced the use of matched grip" statement. You need to show me examples of people switching to matched grip because of Ringo. You've simply shown that Ringo was the first "famous" drummer playing matched. Ginger Baker also played matched grip, as did John Bonham.

Give me some examples of Ringo being the innovator of the straight 8th rock groove. I think that some of the surf music coming from groups like the Beach Boys utilized the straight 8th beat long before the Beatles.

To me, Johnny B Goode sounds straight 8th as well.

Not really...find me famous drummers before him who did that stuff. Heck, if you listen to a lot of early rock 'n' roll records (the original Johnny B. Goode comes to mind), even though the guitar and bass were playing straight 8ths (or was the bass quarters? I forget, it's been a while...either way, there was a straight 8th pulse from the band), the hi hats were being played with a swing beat, meaning that every eighth note didn't line up. It's really hard to listen to, for me at least.

[mrchattr]

I was questioning more of the "Ringo influenced the use of matched grip" statement. You need to show me examples of people switching to matched grip because of Ringo. You've simply shown that Ringo was the first "famous" drummer playing matched. Ginger Baker also played matched grip, as did John Bonham.

Give me some examples of Ringo being the innovator of the straight 8th rock groove. I think that some of the surf music coming from groups like the Beach Boys utilized the straight 8th beat long before the Beatles.

To me, Johnny B Goode sounds straight 8th as well.

I didn't mean that people switched to matched grip because of Ringo...I am sure there are people who did, but I can't say I've ever read or heard of any examples of that. However, Ringo was the first drummer to get famous who did it, and inspired a lot of other people to play that way.

Don't forget...Ringo was one of the most famous, and considered one of the best, drummers in all of England before he joined the Beatles (I want to say he was with Rory Storm and the Hurricanes, but I'm not at home, so can't check my books to be certain). He was already famous in England and Germany as early as 1958 or so...well before Ginger Baker (who's first fame came with the Graham Bond Organization in 1966, the same year he started working with Cream, and almost a decade after Ringo had made the grip famous in Europe, 5 years after Ringo had made it famous in America), John Bonham (who joined his FIRST band in 1964, the year the Beatles hit in America, and, again, years after Ringo was famous...and who also started playing matched grip, based off his idols Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich). Even the Beach Boys weren't formed until 1961, when the Beatles were already famous around the world (though not yet huge in America), and Ringo had been making the straight 8th rock groove famous around the world for quite some time.

As far as Johnny B Goode, if you are listening to the original recording, I don't know what to say. It's a shuffle beat, with 1 2+ 3 4+ being played and shuffled. I mean, it's really obvious, and not buried in the mix or anything. Later versions that Berry (and other artists) did switched to the straight beat...but his original recording is shuffle hi hats, straight other instruments. I hear it when I listen, I have read about it in numerous articles, etc. It's one of those pretty famous bits of drum trivia.

[caddywumpus]

That is true that Art's playing may have been flawed by todays standards...but I also talk with a lot of professional drummers. Derrico Watson, Steve Smith, Brendan Hill, Carter Beauford...the list goes on and on, of guys I have talked to who break a lot of sticks.

I'm not saying that breaks can't happen BECAUSE of bad technique...of course they can. But my point is that plenty of great drummers did, and do, break sticks. I love when a smooth jazz drummer who plays once or twice a month says something like, "Dude, you break sticks? You must not know what you're doing!" when I play mostly rock, frequently (20 hours or more a week spent drumming), and love the sound of rim shots, so use them as my main "2 and 4" hit a lot.

You seem to be approaching this from the perspective of me saying that anything you do is ok if someone did it and made it work for them. I'm not. But I am saying that people who speak in sweeping generalities (ie, you suck if you break sticks) often not only show a level of intolerance and a "holier-than-thou" attitude, but also show a glaring lack of knowledge of the history of their own instrument.

Exactly! Well said.

If I break a stick more than once every 2-3 weeks, I think I'm breaking a lot of sticks. It usually means I've been putting in a ton of hours, though. I don't find myself playing gigs where loud rimshots are required, as of late...

I didn't know you played mostly rock. From your avatar name, I pictured you as a jazz cat. My mistake...

[mrchattr]

Exactly! Well said.

If I break a stick more than once every 2-3 weeks, I think I'm breaking a lot of sticks. It usually means I've been putting in a ton of hours, though. I don't find myself playing gigs where loud rimshots are required, as of late...

I didn't know you played mostly rock. From your avatar name, I pictured you as a jazz cat. My mistake...

Hahaha...I'm a jazz cat who sold out. A bass player I was working with talked to me one day, and convinced me that drumming professionally, even if it's not my favorite style of music, is still better than sitting in an office, not drumming. So, I still play a TON of jazz on the side, and work with jazz artists when I can. But my bread and butter is rock. The rock pays the bills (and the drum tech) which gives me the freedom to play jazz! But I bet I'm one of only a few drummers who ends a show with "Crazy Bitch" and then goes out to the car and pops in "Birth of the Cool" for the ride home!