i want to start jazz or swing drumming

[XdrugfreeX]

where do i start, im a big fan of swing and i even like tiger army, but im really looking to start drumming more jazz/swing, i started out drumming hardcore and it kinda got old fast. so im really looking to start somewhere else. but where do i start? any good song's or band i should listen to or play along to?

[Michael G]

http://drummerworld.com/drummers/Gene_Krupa.html

[blade123]

Main thing you can do it listen. Listen to jazz all the time. Start at Art Blakey-Moanin' GREAT song to learn the swing feel. Play along to it, really easy. Go buy a copy of The Art of Bop Drumming, work through that, then go to beyond bop drumming (I'm still on Art, but almost on Beyond). Find some people to jam with, get a good teacher.

The "standard" pattern is quarters on ride, with a "skip" note on 2 and four. It is impossible to write it out correctly. The closest way to write it is using triplets.
ONE trip let TWO trip LET THREE trip let FOUR trip LET
With hats with foot on 2 and 4.

Any questions, just ask.

[XdrugfreeX]

wow thanks i just ordered the book it should be in next Tuesday, i'm pumped

[KLittle123]

Tiger Army is psychobilly man. That's punk and rockabilly mixed...that's kinda far from jazz... it's like 5th generation away from jazz, ha, good band though.

are you sXe, judging by your name?

[Victor_se]

I bought "Progressive Independence" by Ron Spagnardi

It really help me out to learn some Jazz patterns

[Spence]

I don't think you can go wrong with Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer by Jim Chapin.

When I first started with this book it improved my playing really quickly. Highly recommended.

[XdrugfreeX]

Sweet thanks a lot guys, ya I'm straight edge always have been always will be :)

[dea]

I still think, "Creative Timekeeping", by Rick Mattingly is my favorite jazz book. This book starts with a focus on the ride cymbal only ( accents, broken time ), and with ample detail to carry the skills forward without holes. Neither of the other mentioned books have this. However, as with all books, there is no single source. In order to acquire all of the facets necessary to play jazz, you will have to purchase more than one book. This is just how it works.

[XdrugfreeX]

the books are deff the best way to go tho?

[blade123]

the books are deff the best way to go tho?

Be careful with books. They can give you the CHOPS but not necessarily the feel or the whys/whens/hows.

"Jazz cannot be learned in the practice room"

Work out of the books, LISTEN like crazy. Listen every chance you get. Listen to jazz radio on the way to work/school. Save up $150, go to Rasputin's and buy a ton of jazz to listen to daily.
Once you think you have an idea, look for other players. If you don't think you're good enough to hang with the "big boys", hire some musicians and make sure that they know that you're just learning. Have them play some standards with you, and help you out.

[foursticks]

There are plenty of threads similar to this already. Nonetheless I will give you the same advice I always give to people wanting to start out jazz:

Get Kind of Blue by Miles Davis.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Get Kind of Blue. Get everything you can. A Love Supreme is another absolute essential first-buy of just fantastic music in general. One of the Brian Blade albums wouldn't go amiss either for something more modern. Listen to everything, listen to the nuances, listen to the swing and listen to the feel more than the notes played. The feel is far more important.

[jay norem]

im really looking to start drumming more jazz/swing

I don't mean to come across as sarcastic by asking this question because I am quite sincere in asking it. Why do you want to take up jazz? Have you heard any of it, and if so, what have you heard that you liked?
If you tell us what's caused you to want to learn jazz drumming, we'll be in a better position to help you in that endeavor.
And by the way, good for you! Nothing is better than playing jazz on the drums. You're going to love it, and you'll be a better drummer for it.

[Class A Drummer]

Advanced Technique for the Modern Drummer by Jim Chapin is the perfect book for swing drumming. I was almost a complete beginner with swing jazz when i started with that book and it is the main reason i was able to make my schools jazz band.

[Clayton_C]

Listen a ton, learn to read big band charts and set up punches (The Art of Bop Drumming is an instructional book that helped me build these kind of quick 1-measure phrases and licks, and also string them together for bop-style soloing... it's by John Riley and an absolute essential for jazz drummers of all skill levels). Also be sure to work on time, because I can tell you from experience, when you finally sit down with some jazzers and they're like "ok, bud, 12-bar Blues, about 180, ABAA, stop time for the last A... good? good. a1,2,3,4...", you NEED to keep time. All to say: practice with a metronome!!!

[jay norem]

"ok, bud, 12-bar Blues, about 180, ABAA, stop time for the last A... good? good. a1,2,3,4..."

A 12-bar blues with an ABAA structure?
I'm pretty sure you mean an AABA structure, but that's not a 12-bar blues either. "Stop time for the last A." What does that mean?
And nobody ever calls out how many beats-per-minute the tempo is. I mean never.
Really, you guys with all your jazz advice need to actually play some jazz in the real world before you start throwing out this sort of stuff. You're not helping the guy at all. What you're doing is giving him bad information, wrong information, which is no information at all.
ABAA. Name one song that you know of with that structure.

[Garvin]

My 2c on swing is you're better off approaching it in an oblique fashion: listen to and play a lot of triplet-feel reggae.

!! Wha???

What do you mean by oblique?

Reggae??? Huh?

[KLittle123]

Why do people always advice to listen to Miles Davis and Coltrane? they're total soloists, and many people who enjoy jazz do not love them at all. If this guy enjoys the cohesiveness and group feel of swing, he won't enjoy Kind of Blue or Love Supreme at all.
Art Blakey is very good. True swing, nobody ever disagrees about him.
My 2c on swing is you're better off approaching it in an oblique fashion: listen to and play a lot of triplet-feel reggae.

That's what Jazz largely is, is improv, i.e. soloists. You gotta learn to work with a soloist instead of just being on a set path. Listening to Davis and Coltrane can help you to sort of look ahead and know what to do. Gotta learn to play and comp with a solo since improv is a large part in jazz.

[caddywumpus]

I would ditto Art Blakey's Moanin' album. Also his Live At Birdland volume 1 is among my favorites. Philly Jo Jones' album Showcase is great for drummers, as is Buddy Rich's Giant Steps. Lots of ideas, and the tunes have "pop appeal"...they're easy to listen to for someone not "into" jazz yet.

[foursticks]

Why do people always advice to listen to Miles Davis and Coltrane? they're total soloists, and many people who enjoy jazz do not love them at all. If this guy enjoys the cohesiveness and group feel of swing, he won't enjoy Kind of Blue or Love Supreme at all.
Art Blakey is very good. True swing, nobody ever disagrees about him.
My 2c on swing is you're better off approaching it in an oblique fashion: listen to and play a lot of triplet-feel reggae.

Talk about missing the point.
Jazz is about soloists. And many people who enjoy jazz DO love them. Miles is widely considered THE innovator of jazz of the 20th century along with Coltrane (though there are many others, these two are the popular ones). These cats were major contributors to the progression of jazz and Kind of Blue is also considered as the epitome of what jazz is about. Just because Miles and Davis are soloists does not mean it's simply about them. You fail to consider the rest of the bands who take solos themselves - Miles and Trane were simply leaders. Also, each of their bands had a rhythm section which made them a group. Those albums, especially Kind of Blue, emphasize a typical 'group feel swing' which in turns supports the soloist, by creating a blanket for which the soloist to work off - thus making a collabrated effort.

Lastly - REGGAE!?!

[jay norem]

Well the guy said he was interested in taking up jazz/swing. I don't think Kind of Blue or A Love Supreme are at all good examples of jazz/swing drumming. For one thing, forget about using Elvin Jones as an example to get someone familiar with how jazz drummming sounds. It's an absurd idea; the man was an innovator with a very unique style and outlandish chops. Not for beginers! As for Kind of Blue, that's not at all the best representation of Jimmy Cobb's drumming and, again, it's a very innovative record with its own unique melodic/harmonic agenda that doesn't best represent the basic function of a jazz drummer in a swing sense.
Everyone always says Kind of Blue and A Love Supreme, because usually those are the only jazz records they have. Everyone has those.
What I would suggest, to get the real idea of what jazz drums sound like on a basic and identifiable, and easier to digest level, would be some Jimmy Smith trio recordings, that sort of thing. The drumming is basic, the music is swinging and bluesy and it's a great way to get into your head what sort of things a jazz drummer does, on a meat-and-potatoes sort of level. Nothing fancy, nothing innovative, just good solidly swung jazz drummming.
Oh, and "ABAA 12-bar blues?" Sorry, I just can't get over that. Who's teaching you guys jazz anyway?
The reggae thing, that's just total jive.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

If you want to get into jazz music that is what I'll recommend: 'Kind of Blue' or 'A Love Supreme' as examples of music they are some of the shining examples. In terms of jazz drumming which is far less important of course I would recommend other albums for that specific purpose - but I don't see the point into getting someone purely into jazz drumming, the music is what needs to appeal to those interested. I have far, far more jazz than just that on my computer - a very small random sample will show something like this:

'Expansions' by McCoy Tyner
'Black Hope' by Kenny Garrett
'Inside Out' by Keith Jarrett
'Sketches of Spain' by Miles Davis
'One Time Out' by Paul Motian
'East Broadway Run Down' by Sonny Rollins
'The Complete Riverside Recordings' by Thelonious Monk - (that's a LOT just there)
'Juju' by Wayne Shorter.

So no, I'm not just recommending those two albums because they're all I have - not by any means. I just think they're probably the two best examples of music that a new listener can learn to appreciate. And that to me is far more interesting than just buying an album because the drummer is good.

[blade123]

Jay and Foursticks, thanks for setting a lot of people straight.
All I can recommend to the poster is that you listen like crazy and get The Art of Bop Drumming. Listening is the best thing that you can do. Art Blakey, Buddy Rich, Philly Joe Jones. Just solid drummers that give the jazz feel. Elvin and Tony are great and innovative, but think about it this way: Mike Portnoy is a great and innovative rock drummer, but if you wanted to show someone what rock drumming is like, he would be the last person you would want to show. AC/DC's Phil Rudd would be a MUCH better example. Is he as good or as innovative as Portnoy? No, but he does offer a solid feel that much better shows rock drumming as a whole.
Start off with Kind of Blue or Moanin'. Either one is a great choice.

[jay norem]

In terms of jazz drumming which is far less important of course I would recommend other albums for that specific purpose

Far less important? But that's what the guy is asking, how do I learn jazz drumming? And it amazes me to hear anyone on this or any drummer's site say that jazz drumming, or any other style of drumming, is far less important. Less important to who? To you? It's pretty bloody important to me, being a jazz drummer.
So what other albums, pray tell, would you recommend to a drummer who wants to learn how to play jazz?
I very much doubt that John Riley, for example, would recommend either of those records as a starting-off point.
Hey, can you play an ABAA 12-bar blues?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Sorry for your aggressive attitude. I really don't think that what I said warrants a reactionary response.

Sorry, but I'm not a drummer - I play more than just the drums and this whole 'drums' mentality is ridiculous; selecting yourself as 'just' a drummer doesn't help anyone, least of all yourself . If you want to learn a style, go to the pinnacles of that style and assimilate it for yourself. Music is what you make of it, for the better or worse and trying to imitate blindly is just a sterile attitude that happens far too much in any music. As they said in Alice in Wonderland 'Start at the beginning, carry on until you reach the end, and then stop.' As a good place to find the 'middle ground' during what really was a very progressive time in jazz (as the whole idiom was and still is) is indeed those records - which demonstrate the beginnings of where the genre was going in the 60's - arguably one of the biggest melting pots of music in any idiom. I'm not talking about drumming, I'm talking about music as a whole.

Get them into the music first and then maybe focus on the specifics. I certainly wouldn't recommend 'Interstellar Space' to a new jazz musician - let alone drummer - that's far too 'out there' but there are melodic elements that as a general listener 'Kind of Blue' and 'A Love Supreme' can latch on to and appreciate regardless of your interest in the genre. I hate this 'drummer' mentality. I absolutely do. Sure, great, you play the drums, so do I - but that doesn't mean that's all you've got to be interested in is the drums. Why not appreciate a clever chord substitution? Or an interesting pentatonic lick? Why not appreciate serialist composing or self-parodying quips? All of these things were happening in early jazz, jazz during its heyday, and now. These things are always relevant and the style of 'just' drumming used during a ten year period that people somehow consider the stylistic norms is just ridiculous. There are conventions, but no rules. And why even bother with conventions when all it does is form sterility? Sorry. If you like the music, buy the records for the music. Don't turn into Buddy and play the same solo again and again and again regardless of the context. Getting an idea of what is needed is only formed within the context of a whole record, so no; the drumming is not important. The overall result is.

[jay norem]

I hate this 'drummer' mentality. I absolutely do. Sure, great, you play the drums, so do I - but that doesn't mean that's all you've got to be interested in is the drums.

I suppose this is why you call yourself mediocre. That's okay, I myself am a lousy jazz drummer. Somehow I get by. But the drums is my instrument, so I guess I'm guilty of having a drummer mentality.
I am also a formally trained composer and arranger. Go ahead, ask me a chord, ask me any chord.
And I'm a bloody good cook. You should taste my chicken and sausage gumbo.
Oh, and a pentatonic "lick" is permutations of the five-note pentatonic scale: C D E G A C, for example. "Penta" means five. A good example of this scale is the first seven notes of "In a Sentimental Mood," which include the C an octave above the tonic, and then end on the next D: C D E G A C D.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Come on now, surely you're above that kind of name-calling.

What do you mean by 'ask me a chord'? I'm a classically trained singer, but I'm not a trained monkey and I'm not going to blast out Handel for the sheer Hell of party tricks.

I can't cook though. Incidentally I know what a pentatonic lick is. Pentagon - five sides - bit of a give away.

[jay norem]

Come on now, surely you're above that kind of name-calling.

What do you mean by 'ask me a chord'? I'm a classically trained singer, but I'm not a trained monkey and I'm not going to blast out Handel for the sheer Hell of party tricks.

I can't cook though. Incidentally I know what a pentatonic lick is. Pentagon - five sides - bit of a give away.

Question: do you actually play jazz or swing style? On the drums, I mean.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

That's a very broad question. I would say I an the eternal student of the greats; so in relation to them - no, I can't compare. But there's always learning and that's what it's about.

[Tutin]

Oh, and a pentatonic "lick" is permutations of the five-note pentatonic scale: C D E G A C, for example. "Penta" means five.

Is that why a pentagon has five sides? Actually, now you mention I do remember being told that when I first encountered one at the age of 5.

This guy knows his stuff, he's not lying about being trained.

[jay norem]

That's a very broad question. I would say I an the eternal student of the greats; so in relation to them - no, I can't compare. But there's always learning and that's what it's about.

Then where in the Sam Hill do you get off giving a drummer who is a newcomer to jazz advice?
And it's not at all a broad question. It's a do you or don't you question. Maybe it's even a can you or can't you question. Either way, the answer is either yes or no.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Yeah, I do as it happens; not well, but then again I don't think that's important. I just don't think it's remotely relevant in this discussion. I listen to jazz music as a musician, not just a drummer. If you've been reading my posts, you'd likely realise that and maybe you'd stop being so confrontational. You're not an oracle, neither am I - but I hate this attitude that people listen to music because of one instrument. There's no point.

[jazzgregg]

when it was less stale and less cerebral.
.

I just have one question. When was that?

G

[jay norem]

Yeah, I do as it happens; not well, but then again I don't think that's important. I just don't think it's remotely relevant in this discussion. I listen to jazz music as a musician, not just a drummer. If you've been reading my posts, you'd likely realise that and maybe you'd stop being so confrontational. You're not an oracle, neither am I - but I hate this attitude that people listen to music because of one instrument. There's no point.

Look, all the guy said was that he wants to learn about playing jazz drums, right? And then some people come up and start throwing "advice" around like they know all there is to know about the music.
I don't post on the metal threads because I don't know anything about metal drumming. But I see people posting on jazz threads all the time when it's obvious that they don't know what they're talking about.
Am I pushing the limits here? I apologize if I am. I just don't like b******t, that's all, especially when it comes to jazz.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Well it appears that you and I aren't that far apart in our thinking either. I don't like 'jazz' threads over here much for the same reason as you; don't worry, I hate the bull as well. We might disagree on this one point but at least we agree on the poseur attitude.

The important thing is though - which is more important? The instrument you play or the collective whole?

[Garvin]

About the reggae: reggae triplet feel, shuffle or whatever you want to call it, is very close to swing. Pretend it's not, your loss.

Okay, I'm trying hard to understand this... I supposed the rhythm guitar in reggae is swung. That's just the feel though, I think that might be more harmful than helpful to a newcomer to jazz. Shuffle, as a rhythm is something totally different. I think there is definitely a lot of confusion being bounced around in this thread. Definitely one of the least constructive "beginner jazz" threads we've done here.

Forget about what to listen to for now. I say get the John Riley book and just work with that for a bit. There are some listening examples in there as well as playalongs. Technically speaking (since that seems how we are doing this) its a book on "bop" drumming, but I can't think of a better book. Swing, and big-band stuff are not my thing at all, so I'm not even going to venture into those waters. But it is important that you understand what it is you are asking to learn. It might be worth hanging around on the itunes store and just listening to samples of stuff until you here the actual genre, or style that you are looking for, then dig in for some full albums.

MFB, you are a cool cat... I like how you deal with things.

[jay norem]

Well it appears that you and I aren't that far apart in our thinking either. I don't like 'jazz' threads over here much for the same reason as you; don't worry, I hate the bull as well. We might disagree on this one point but at least we agree on the poseur attitude.

The important thing is though - which is more important? The instrument you play or the collective whole?

The collective whole wouldn't be worth a d**n if the instrument I play wasn't more important to me than it is to the other guys in the band. Drumming is my job. Playing the piano is the piano player's job. It's the most important thing to him: playing the piano well. If he doesn't play the piano well, then there's no collective whole, and if there is then it stinks.

[Tutin]

Well it appears that you and I aren't that far apart in our thinking either. I don't like 'jazz' threads over here much for the same reason as you; don't worry, I hate the bull as well. We might disagree on this one point but at least we agree on the poseur attitude.

The important thing is though - which is more important? The instrument you play or the collective whole?

"Penta" means five.


20202020

[jazzgregg]

The collective whole wouldn't be worth a d**n if the instrument I play wasn't more important to me than it is to the other guys in the band. Drumming is my job. Playing the piano is the piano player's job. It's the most important thing to him: playing the piano well. If he doesn't play the piano well, then there's no collective whole, and if there is then it stinks.

Jay, I like your posts and the way you think, but could you elaborate on this? Isn't playing music your job? It's my job, I just do it with drums in front of me, most of the time.

Maurice- if someone asked you how to cook, would you tell them to go buy a bike and learn to ride it in circles? Why would advice on learning Jazz involve 'listen to something that isn't'?


G

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

The collective whole wouldn't be worth a d**n if the instrument I play wasn't more important to me than it is to the other guys in the band. Drumming is my job. Playing the piano is the piano player's job. It's the most important thing to him: playing the piano well. If he doesn't play the piano well, then there's no collective whole, and if there is then it stinks.

But surely the chemistry in a band is more important than the individual instruments? That's why supergroups usually completely suck. Having the best technicians in a band rarely produces an interesting result. I'd rather listen to a band with raw energy and chemistry that excite me rather than a technically perfect band that bore the Hell out of me.

[jay norem]

The important thing is though - which is more important? The instrument you play or the collective whole?

I can just imagine a drummer going into a jazz audition and telling the band leader "The drums aren't that important to me. I'm more interested in the collective whole."

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I'd rather know how I fitted in within a band than whether or not the lead guitarist was really good or not. I don't know if it's just me, but I want to enjoy the music I play.

[jazzgregg]

I can just imagine a drummer going into a jazz audition and telling the band leader "The drums aren't that important to me. I'm more interested in the collective whole."

Jay, come now! You know better than this. He wouldn't NEED to say it, it would show in his playing.

G

[jay norem]

Jay, come now! You know better than this. He wouldn't NEED to say it, it would show in his playing.

G

The point is that he wouldn't even be eligible for the audition if playing the drums wasn't the most important thing to him.
I've never been hired for anything other than how well I can play the drums. And I would never have been in a position to be hired by anyone in the first place if playing the drums wasn't important to me, the most important thing.
My job, our job, is to play the drums; if I'm contributing positively to the collective whole, in other words if I'm doing my job well, then I'm playing music. If I'm not doing that then I'd better look for a day job.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Drums really aren't that important to me. Contributing towards music and having fun is what counts to me and if I went in with that technical attitude, I sure as Hell wouldn't be having the fun that I've had. Whatever instrument I'm playing, bass, guitar, drums or singing. My job is to play music and enjoy myself, not play the drums.

[jazzgregg]

The point is that he wouldn't even be eligible for the audition if playing the drums wasn't the most important thing to him.
I've never been hired for anything other than how well I can play the drums. And I would never have been in a position to be hired by anyone in the first place if playing the drums wasn't important to me, the most important thing.
My job, our job, is to play the drums; if I'm contributing positively to the collective whole, in other words if I'm doing my job well, then I'm playing music. If I'm not doing that then I'd better look for a day job.

I think you are both looking on either side of the same coin. What MFB is saying, and to which I agree, is that the music comes first, not the drums. It's about being a MUSICIAN, not a drummer, or guitarist, or whatever. When you put your instrument before the music, or for that matter the other musicians, you get crappy music. This music is also known as Progressive Rock.

I get hired because of how I make other people sound and what I bring to the music, not how well I can play. If you're drumming well, then you are just doing that, if you are making music, then you have reached the goal. Playing the drums well has nothing to do with making music. Think about that for a minute.

G

[jay norem]

Playing the drums well has nothing to do with making music. Think about that for a minute.


Of course it does. Playing the violin well has everything to do with making music. Playing the tuba well has everything to do with making music. Playing any instrument well has everything to do with making music, provided that you are, in fact, a musician.
Think about that for a minute.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Playing the instrument doesn't really have anything to do with music. A guy sitting down with an air raid siren is creating music (especially if you follow Dada/Existentialism) but would you classify the siren as a formal 'instrument' or just noise?

[jazzgregg]

Of course it does. Playing the violin well has everything to do with making music. Playing the tuba well has everything to do with making music. Playing any instrument well has everything to do with making music, provided that you are, in fact, a musician.
Think about that for a minute.

So people that aren't very good at playing their instruments cannot make good music?



G

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

So people that aren't very good at playing their instruments cannot make good music?



G

Syd Barrett was a rotten guitar player. But a genius musician.

[Tutin]

Of course it does. Playing the violin well has everything to do with making music. Playing the tuba well has everything to do with making music. Playing any instrument well has everything to do with making music, provided that you are, in fact, a musician.
Think about that for a minute.

I'm having trouble taking all this in. I'm still fearing that someone might just make one massive penta-instrument and play pentatonic licks all day long.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I'm having trouble taking all this in. I'm still fearing that someone might just make one massive penta-instrument and play pentatonic licks all day long.

It's called the guitar if the Seventies are anything to be believed.

[jay norem]

So people that aren't very good at playing their instruments cannot make good music?


Is there any other way to look at it? If you can't play, you can't make good music. Isn't this just common sense?
If I'm not any good at fixing cars I can't be a good auto mechanic. If I'm not any good at baking I can't bake good bread. If I'm not any good at playing an instrument then I can't make good music, or is this an out-dated old fashioned way of looking at it?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

The other things are objective careers with a defined outcome. What makes good music is subjective and that's why we call it 'art'. Hence with no skill, you can create a valid artistic statement. Playing music isn't like fixing a car, it's about creating something new and unique.

[jazzgregg]

The other things are objective careers with a defined outcome. What makes good music is subjective and that's why we call it 'art'. Hence with no skill, you can create a valid artistic statement. Playing music isn't like fixing a car, it's about creating something new and unique.

This is a perfect answer. Playing well and making music are not necessarily one in the same, though they CAN overlap. There are TONS of examples besides Syd that prove this to no end. Furthermore, I bet I could list a number of examples of drummers who play drums VERY well, but make utter rubbish music (though that's not the point=)

Jay, really, you surprise me. As a composer, I would have thought you wouldn't put one instrument ahead of another and would value the end resulkt over any individual part.

G

[jay norem]

The other things are objective careers with a defined outcome. What makes good music is subjective and that's why we call it 'art'. Hence with no skill, you can create a valid artistic statement. Playing music isn't like fixing a car, it's about creating something new and unique.

Man I don't know what you're talking about. The guy said he wanted to learn about playing jazz. That's what the thread is about. Not about how art is subjective.
I thought this site was about drumming skills. People are always talking about technical things that specifically relate to drumming and drumming only.
The guy asks a question about jazz drumming and now we're to "good music is subjective?"
If it's so subjective then how can you, in all good faith, recommend Kind of Blue as a good record for a beginer to learn jazz drumming from? Did you learn from that record? Can you play like Jimmy Cobb does on that record? What did you learn about jazz drumming from listening to that record?

[jazzgregg]

Man I don't know what you're talking about. The guy said he wanted to learn about playing jazz. That's what the thread is about. Not about how art is subjective.
I thought this site was about drumming skills. People are always talking about technical things that specifically relate to drumming and drumming only.
The guy asks a question about jazz drumming and now we're to "good music is subjective?"
If it's so subjective then how can you, in all good faith, recommend Kind of Blue as a good record for a beginer to learn jazz drumming from? Did you learn from that record? Can you play like Jimmy Cobb does on that record? What did you learn about jazz drumming from listening to that record?

I learned Jazz playing to Kind of Blue. Is that a problem for you, Jay?=)

G

[jay norem]

I learned Jazz playing to Kind of Blue. Is that a problem for you, Jay?=)

G

No, not at all. Good for you!

[jazzgregg]

No, not at all. Good for you!

Good, because I support MFB recommending that and I always do myself, before any other album. With the exception of 'Legend', maybe....=)

G

[jay norem]

Good, because I support MFB recommending that and I always do myself, before any other album. With the exception of 'Legend', maybe....=)

G

Well that's just fine.
Can you play an ABAA 12-bar blues at 180? One of those has got to be on Kind of Blue, I just can't think of the title right now.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

How is that even relevant?

[jazzgregg]

Well that's just fine.
Can you play an ABAA 12-bar blues at 180? One of those has got to be on Kind of Blue, I just can't think of the title right now.

That gets called all the time at gigs, don't you know?

G

[jay norem]

That gets called all the time at gigs, don't you know?

G

Oh, I'm hip. All the time. But it's not the structure that hangs me up so much, it's the tempo!

[jazzgregg]

Oh, I'm hip. All the time. But it's not the structure that hangs me up so much, it's the tempo!

Go buy a Peter Tosh record then, that will sort out your Jazz. Oh the things people say on the internet....

G

[jay norem]

Go buy a Peter Tosh record then, that will sort out your Jazz. G

I'm going to do that, G. Is there a Peter Tosh drumming book you can recommend? See, I want to learn to play swing.
Okay, okay. I believe I'd better just vacate this thread before I get kicked off these forums!

[Clayton_C]

A 12-bar blues with an ABAA structure?
I'm pretty sure you mean an AABA structure, but that's not a 12-bar blues either. "Stop time for the last A." What does that mean?
And nobody ever calls out how many beats-per-minute the tempo is. I mean never.
Really, you guys with all your jazz advice need to actually play some jazz in the real world before you start throwing out this sort of stuff. You're not helping the guy at all. What you're doing is giving him bad information, wrong information, which is no information at all.
ABAA. Name one song that you know of with that structure.

Sorry, pal... I'm not getting what you're saying here. I play club jazz every single week (and gigs throughout the week) with the pros (google paul perez, johnny blue, and doug davis if you don't wanna call 'em pros) and so I have plenty of experience. Forgive me if my 12-bar blues logic is messed up, and PLEASE SET ME STRAIGHT - after all, I'm here to learn.

My understanding of 12-bar blues (as a learning vibes player) is that you have four measures of your first chord, then play it's 4th, then it's 5th. So, for a Bb, it would essentially look like this:

Bb Bb Bb Bb
Eb Eb Bb Bb
F Eb Bb F

And this is obviously a twelve measure progression, so in theory, an ABAA structure would simply be a variation of this form. Sure, AABA is by far the most common - almost any Fakebook song uses it - but there are always exceptions. And really, no-one ever calls out tempos? Your session friends obviously don't trust you with time in whatever groups you play in. I get people all the time telling me the tempo and let me count it off. Don't blow up because it's not USUAL.

... and you totally missed my point, anyway. I wasn't really talking about form or tempos or anything. :)

[jay norem]

My understanding of 12-bar blues (as a learning vibes player) is that you have four measures of your first chord, then play it's 4th, then it's 5th. So, for a Bb, it would essentially look like this:

Bb Bb Bb Bb
Eb Eb Bb Bb
F Eb Bb F

And this is obviously a twelve measure progression, so in theory, an ABAA structure would simply be a variation of this form.

ABAA is four seperate sections played as a complete chorus, which is the song. The A, in this case, would be played three times, the B once. Four sections. The letters show that there are two different written sections, the A and the B.
So your suggestion that the chords you've shown could be described as an ABAA structure doesn't work, not at all.
In your example below you're actually showing three sections. One that starts with Bb, the second one starting with Eb, and the third one starting with F, each section containing four measures. This would be more correctly called an ABC structure.
But a 12-bar blues is not an ABC or AABA or any other kind of structure, because the entire head, the entire 12-bars, make up the tune. In other words, it's all A.
An example of the AABA structure can be easily found all over the jazz idiom. "Cherokee," for example, (an old jazz chestnut) is AABA. But a blues? As unacceptable as this may seem to your music teacher, a blues is just a blues. It's going way too far to break it down into sections. It's ridiculous, in fact, and totally counter-intuitive to any practicing jazz musician.
And now I really am out of here.

[KLittle123]

To Jay...

You know what happens when I listen to music JUST for the drums--I only learn the drums. I only remember, listen, and hear the drums and I block out the rest of the music. I think it's better to listen to jazz music in general, not just jazz music that has good drummers.

[Darryl]

I think that you will not only enjoy...but also benefit alot by picking up the DVD by Billy Ward titled "Voices In My Head".
The one disc is a very extensive tutorial/history with Billy playing/walking you through the jazz greats and their styles.
The other disc is the latest release from the Billy Ward Trio.

I have been refining my style toward more jazz influences and hardly listen to anything anymore other than jazz.

Kinda' strange since I have always been into rock and hard rock since I was a kid.

Now I have kids and my palette for drumming and music in general has changed.

Anyway, yeh, check out that DVD and I think you will be glad you did.

[jazzin']

When you put your instrument before the music, or for that matter the other musicians, you get crappy music. This music is also known as Progressive Rock.
G


Haw haw haw!!


That was highly amusing.


I think this debate is raging at two different ends. One guy (Jay) is saying that to be able to play music you first have to understand and be able to play your own particular instrument. At the other end is MFB who is saying that no matter what you play, it is the music that must be considered first and not the instrument you play.

Both correct, but coming from different angles and maybe more importantly, different stages of learning. A beginner, such as the thread starter, would need to focus on his instrument and not so much integrating as one with the music because he doesn't know what to do to integrate. No one can just start playing and immediately gel with other guys who have been playing for a long time. You first have to be able to actually play which means focusing on your instrument.

Conversely, once you have got the technical aspects down and can play your instrument you have to start forgetting about playing drums and start thinking about playing music. If you can't forget about playing drums then your music will suffer as a whole.

I would check out Billy Higgins. Hip, bouncy, great swing and plays purely for the music. Also, as a basic starting point, cheesy as it may be to others, I would download a bunch of the Abersold albums. They have good players playing really basic stuff against standard tunes. Once you get the basics down, then start checking out and trying to apply what you've been listening to from the older great players like 'Papa', 'Philly', Roach, Higgins, Clarke, Blakey etc etc. Then check out and apply Elvin, Haynes, Williams, blah blah.

[jazzin']

Man I don't know what you're talking about. The guy said he wanted to learn about playing jazz. That's what the thread is about. Not about how art is subjective.
I thought this site was about drumming skills. People are always talking about technical things that specifically relate to drumming and drumming only.
The guy asks a question about jazz drumming and now we're to "good music is subjective?"
If it's so subjective then how can you, in all good faith, recommend Kind of Blue as a good record for a beginer to learn jazz drumming from? Did you learn from that record? Can you play like Jimmy Cobb does on that record? What did you learn about jazz drumming from listening to that record?

Do you honestly believe that that is a bad record to listen to? That was the album I started with because it is simple playing once you've got the basic stuff down and it's a beautiful simple album to listen to. I listened and played to that album over and over when I was just starting and it has been recommended by many a very experienced and great jazz player to start with. I find it very surprising that you would suggest this is not a good album to start with.

I can dig you saying that the Jimmy Smith albums are good though, but then, not Kind of Blue? Confusing. It isn't as though the Smith albums are anything so much harder in skill that someone could play them but not A Kind of Blue. If you look at it from a purely technical perspective than there are a million and one albums out there that could be used to start playing along to, but, Kind of Blue is an album that nearly anyone can really dig and that is one reason why it is a great album to start out with for someone trying to learn jazz drumming if they haven't really listened to it before and need somewhere to start.

[jazzin']

Sorry, pal... I'm not getting what you're saying here. I play club jazz every single week (and gigs throughout the week) with the pros (google paul perez, johnny blue, and doug davis if you don't wanna call 'em pros) and so I have plenty of experience. Forgive me if my 12-bar blues logic is messed up, and PLEASE SET ME STRAIGHT - after all, I'm here to learn.

My understanding of 12-bar blues (as a learning vibes player) is that you have four measures of your first chord, then play it's 4th, then it's 5th. So, for a Bb, it would essentially look like this:

Bb Bb Bb Bb
Eb Eb Bb Bb
F Eb Bb F

And this is obviously a twelve measure progression, so in theory, an ABAA structure would simply be a variation of this form. Sure, AABA is by far the most common - almost any Fakebook song uses it - but there are always exceptions. And really, no-one ever calls out tempos? Your session friends obviously don't trust you with time in whatever groups you play in. I get people all the time telling me the tempo and let me count it off. Don't blow up because it's not USUAL.

... and you totally missed my point, anyway. I wasn't really talking about form or tempos or anything. :)

eh? 12 bar blues is just a 12 bar blues man. AABA is a different form entirely and ABAA is a really different form ;) 12 bar blues is one type of form and AABA is another. They can't be played together.


Edit: Ahhh, I see Jay beat me to it already.

[foursticks]

I fail to see what's so hard about the drumming on Kind of Blue technically. Feel-wise - that is hard to get, but that's what makes it so incredibly good, both to the listener and learner. I learned from playing along Kind of Blue I don't see why others shouldn't.
I mean if it was a sax player starting out and we told him to transcribe and learn to play Coltrane's or Adderly's solos - then that's a different story. What made Jimmy Cobb's drumming on that album so breath-taking is the fact that it was purely and geniusly SIMPLE. That's why it's so good for a musican who plays drums =) to play along too and try and capture the feel and sense of swing from it.
It also gives one an idea to a typical structure and form of a jazz tune, which is important to any drummer. Chords, melodies, etc. aren't as important to rhythmic musicians (though it still helps a LOT to be aware of them) as they are to melodic musicians (though I feel it is important to bear in mind that rhythm is incredibly important to BOTH sides, equally).

A Love Supreme - That's just a ruddy good album in general and gives an idea of the more 'free-er' and heavily improvisational forms of jazz. Buy it anyway and if you want to try and drum like Elvin - good luck to you squire.

So basically: Kind of Blue and A Love Supreme = WIN ;-)

[XdrugfreeX]

woh im getting wicked lost, i was just looking for a good starting point, like i said i feel like i fell into a rut and keep just playing 4 4 timing stuff and im trying to learn new beats and time signatures to help me progress as a drummer. when i listen to jazz i can figure out how the come up with the stuff that they do so i figured if i learned some jazz i would be a way more innovative drummer.

[slingerland755]

I don't think you can go wrong with Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer by Jim Chapin.

When I first started with this book it improved my playing really quickly. Highly recommended.

I second that. Great book!