want to do metal double bass (200 bpm+), no idea where to start

[Uaarkson]

I just got iron cobras and a practice pad, and i'd like to build up speed and endurance. thing is, I have no idea what I should be doing. I've built up some speed, but it's still pretty sloppy. are there any exercises in particular for this kind of thing?

[rmandelbaum]

Get a metronome and a good double bass book. Start slow, the speed will come on its own as you gain coordination.

[Class A Drummer]

Practice, Practice, and did i mention Practice?

Look up the mike mangini practice routine thing on the forum, it will help your hands out if you are worried about the speed and endurance for them.

[LayinDown]

Whenever I read any thread on speed, the general consensus and consistently best advice is always to use a metronome, start slowly and increase speed slowly.

Good luck!

[Ian Ballard]

I just got iron cobras and a practice pad, and i'd like to build up speed and endurance. thing is, I have no idea what I should be doing. I've built up some speed, but it's still pretty sloppy. are there any exercises in particular for this kind of thing?

Get any drum book (Ted Reed syncopation is a good start) with progressively harder patterns and use your feet instead of your hands. Get a rudiment book and do as many as you can, even flam rudiments. Metronome... practice... and more practice. And, find decent metal musicians to play with. You'd be surprised how little woodshedding does when you actually start jamming with cats.

It's a balance of both practice and playing with people.

I would also focus on your weaker foot. Spend an extra period every day, JUST playing with your left foot doing exercises. Then, eventually, both feet will catch up. Oh, and don't break your ankle... that kinda screws up your chances of being an effective double-bass player. ;)

[schist]

16th-note double bass at 40BPM, ankle motion only, for 90 minutes nonstop. Do this at least 4 times a week.

[FourOnSix]

yah its called the search button

[Therma lobsterdore]

16th-note double bass at 40BPM, ankle motion only, for 90 minutes nonstop. Do this at least 4 times a week.

You hit the nail on the head there! You have to master the ankle motion to play that fast (or faster) consistently, and your only gonna do that by starting slow

[Derek Roddy]

I just got iron cobras and a practice pad, and i'd like to build up speed and endurance. thing is, I have no idea what I should be doing. I've built up some speed, but it's still pretty sloppy. are there any exercises in particular for this kind of thing?

If you're wanting to play this way.....I would have to assume that you are listening to this type of music.

The answer to your question is very simple but, hard to accept.
There aren't any techniques or exercises that are going to help you play 200bpm+...
they may help you hit 200+...but "hitting 200" and "playing 200" are two very different things.
The only way to get there..... is to do it.

In order to learn to play this way you must play songs that are that way.

Find yourself a song with the "type" of playing you want to accomplish and play it until you get it.
Move on to the next blockade or faster song.
Repeat.

Cheers.
D.

[Derek Roddy]

Whenever I read any thread on speed, the general consensus and consistently best advice is always to use a metronome, start slowly and increase speed slowly.

Good luck!


And, this is why there are SO many threads with the same question and SO many drummers who are NOT getting there and wondering why.......

Because this theory doesn't work in a timely fashion.

Playing slow... doesn't help you play fast....playing fast does.
Cheers,
D.

[Big_Philly]

And, this is why there are SO many threads with the same question and SO many drummers who are NOT getting there and wondering why.......

Because this theory doesn't work in a timely fashion.

Playing slow... doesn't help you play fast....playing fast does.
Cheers,
D.
I think both your way and the "start slow" way imply the same thing. If you have to start from scratch, start at a painfully slow pace - as long as it's a pace you can handle precisely and consistently. Then build up. Isn't that what you're saying as well: find a song (or a speed) that you want to be able to play and get it right, then move on to something faster? Or do you practise beyond the limit of what you can play cleanly and consistently and hang on to it until you get it right?

[autonomos]

I think both your way and the "start slow" way imply the same thing. If you have to start from scratch, start at a painfully slow pace - as long as it's a pace you can handle precisely and consistently. Then build up. Isn't that what you're saying as well: find a song (or a speed) that you want to be able to play and get it right, then move on to something faster? Or do you practise beyond the limit of what you can play cleanly and consistently and hang on to it until you get it right?

I was taught by everybody that Ive ever studied with to always start slow and gradually increase the tempo as ability increases. I also teach the same thing. If you're playing faster than your ability allows, you're not in control, you're not playing the instrument. It's basically a crap shoot, in that you don't know how it's going to turn out in the end.
At the same time I could see sometimes pushing limits in the practice room, but I always thought there was more to gain from the other school of thought. What do you think?

Billy

[Tutin]

Here is where I get mixed opinions. Loads of WFD guys spend hours and years practising slowly and eventually get the speed they desire, then there's guys like Derek who practice playing fast and get similar results (well, not 1100's but 260bpm is unarguably fast). Both techniques will work if you do them right. In my opinion you have to have good technique before you start Dereks type of practice or you'll injure yourself. So I'd say practice slowly until you feel comfortable with your technique then start trying faster stuff. Make sure the technique you use slowly is the one you'll use fast. You don't have to stop practising slowly though, it'd do no harm to keep going with it.

Oh, and don't crack your kneecap. I did that on Sunday and I'm gutted. As soon as I get my left foot to swivel correctly, I immobilise my upper leg. Fantastic.

[Derek Roddy]

One thing you have to keep in mind is....
Playing single notes at 250bpm on a pad (that doesn't move)....is NOT the same thing as playing a song in that tempo.
Moving your arms to hit cymbals, to do tom fills, etc...you're not going to get that on a pad.

I know plenty of guys that are fast on a pad and they can't make it through 1 minute of playing that speed on a drum kit.

If you want to conquer songs that are fast....the only way to get there quickly, is to jump in and hang on and play the songs. 3 minutes of endurance pushes you harder than an exercise.
Pay extra attention to your body, adapt and adjust as needed.
Keep playing on a pad, practicing etc... but, get in there and sweat man.
Make those legs and arms burn, play the music. Hang on!
Do it a lot... and it will come faster than you think.
BUT!!!!! You have to do it, not ask how to do it.
That's the key... and the difference in "getting there" and "wanting to get there".
Cheers.
D.

[autonomos]

Here is where I get mixed opinions. Loads of WFD guys spend hours and years practising slowly and eventually get the speed they desire, then there's guys like Derek who practice playing fast and get similar results (well, not 1100's but 260bpm is unarguably fast). Both techniques will work if you do them right. In my opinion you have to have good technique before you start Dereks type of practice or you'll injure yourself. So I'd say practice slowly until you feel comfortable with your technique then start trying faster stuff. Make sure the technique you use slowly is the one you'll use fast. You don't have to stop practising slowly though, it'd do no harm to keep going with it.

Oh, and don't crack your kneecap. I did that on Sunday and I'm gutted. As soon as I get my left foot to swivel correctly, I immobilise my upper leg. Fantastic.

I think I understand what you're saying about having technique down before increasing the tempo. And it's the same thing that I meant by being in control of the instrument at slower tempos before trying faster ones.
I'm interested in hearing opinions on this and also opinions on going balls to the wall, faster than you know you can while still being in control and relaxed (in the practice room, not on stage). How much can be gained by actually playing beyond one's abilities? Personal experience? Thoughts?

[Derek Roddy]

How much can be gained by actually playing beyond one's abilities? Personal experience? Thoughts?

Well, I think a lot.
I think that is also why we so many questions on how to increase speed. People don't generally play beyond their limits.
Speed comes with control.
This is a very true statement, BUT...if your wanting to play fast music....there is a faster way and that is to jump into it and work out the kinks as you go.
You have to really pay attention to your posture, technique, etc...
But, if you're observant... you can get away with this.
I've been teaching kids who want to learn to play fast, for many years and the ones who achieved their personal speed goals... were always the one's who jumped right in and did it.
That's how I got there. That's how all the guys I know playing fast music... got there.
Cheers.
D.

[autonomos]

One thing you have to keep in mind is....
Playing single notes at 250bpm on a pad (that doesn't move)....is NOT the same thing as playing a song in that tempo.
Moving your arms to hit cymbals, to do tom fills, etc...you're not going to get that on a pad.

I know plenty of guys that are fast on a pad and they can't make it through 1 minute of playing that speed on a drum kit.

If you want to conquer songs that are fast....the only way to get there quickly, is to jump in and hang on and play the songs. 3 minutes of endurance pushes you harder than an exercise.
Pay extra attention to your body, adapt and adjust as needed.
Keep playing on a pad, practicing etc... but, get in there and sweat man.
Make those legs and arms burn, play the music. Hang on!
Do it a lot... and it will come faster than you think.
BUT!!!!! You have to do it, not ask how to do it.
That's the key... and the difference in "getting there" and "wanting to get there".
Cheers.
D.

I hear you Derek and you put up a convincing arguement. At least part of me agrees with you. If you jump in and it falls apart, or you cant keep up, then I would think one would come up with applicable exercises, or play the part that you can't over and over until you get it down? That's what I did when I was younger.... and actually still do. Would you recommend trying the part at tempo over and over or slowing it down and building up to tempo gradually?

Billy

[Derek Roddy]

Would you recommend trying the part at tempo over and over or slowing it down and building up to tempo gradually?

Billy

I would personally recommend trying it at tempo, over and over.
Look at it this way.
If you do it slower over and over...it may come together faster but then... you have the physical barrier of bringing it up to tempo.
That will take longer than learning the actual notes.
So why not just start at tempo?
Hell, you have to get there eventually! Haha.
Tackle it!

Cheers brother.
D.

[autonomos]

Well, I think a lot.
I think that is also why we so many questions on how to increase speed. People don't generally play beyond their limits.
Speed comes with control.
This is a very true statement, BUT...if your wanting to play fast music....there is a faster way and that is to jump into it and work out the kinks as you go.
You have to really pay attention to your posture, technique, etc...
But, if you're observant... you can get away with this.
I've been teaching kids who want to learn to play fast, for many years and the ones who achieved their personal speed goals... were always the one's who jumped right in and did it.
Cheers.
D.


Fascinating stuff, really. You're the first person I''ve ever heard this from. That's exactly what I was looking for, first hand experience. I've always told the kids to slow down, concentrate, breathe, relax, and kinda be aware of exactly what they were doing. Most of them were bored very quickly with it. Maybe it was a bit my fault, expecting that kind of discipline from high school girls. How do you get kids to pay attention to posture, technique, etc.? Some just have it and some don't? Some are more driven than others?

[autonomos]

I would personally recommend trying it at tempo, over and over.
Look at it this way.
If you do it slower over and over...it may come together faster but then... you have the physical barrier of bringing it up to tempo.
That will take longer than learning the actual notes.
So why not just start at tempo?
Hell, you have to get there eventually! Haha.
Tackle it!

Cheers brother.
D.

Much appreciated advice. Good stuff. Thanks

Billy

[ermghoti]

I would personally recommend trying it at tempo, over and over.
Look at it this way.
If you do it slower over and over...it may come together faster but then... you have the physical barrier of bringing it up to tempo.
That will take longer than learning the actual notes.
So why not just start at tempo?
Hell, you have to get there eventually! Haha.
Tackle it!

Cheers brother.
D.

There's no arguing with your results, of course, and keep in mind I'm a feeble drummer... however, I'm a decent guitar player, and I always played metal. I have picked up some stuff with the sort of brute force technique you describe, and it does enable one to play a song. That said, I took my technique apart, and relearned everything after about ten years, because I had so many workarounds to play memorized parts that my progress was limited. By going back and picking up a better foundation, and some theory, I was able to play far faster, cleaner, and to bring my own interpretation to parts.

As I learn drums, I have resolved to do what I did in the middle of my guitar playing, at the beginning, and I feel I am reaping benefits. I have, indeed, played 16ths at 40-60 beats for, oh 15 minutes at a whack, looking at my feet, trying to mirror my stronger foot after the weaker, playing weak lead, experimenting with techniques, and once satisfied, brought up the tempo. I'll never win WFD, and I have no interest in playing fast enough that triggers are required, but I could probably get through Raining Blood, maybe Dyer's Eve on a good day (tempo-wise).

I would guess that more people would do better by building up from a foundation, and develop speed out of accuracy and solid technique, than a sink-or-swim course. I hear too many guys playing a number of instruments that are forcing tempos and techniques they can't play, and often don't know the difference.

[Derek Roddy]

I hear too many guys playing a number of instruments that are forcing tempos and techniques they can't play, and often don't know the difference.


Knowing the difference is key but, when speaking about techniques you can't play....how do you learn them?
Do they just come?
Do you wake up one day after thinking about it and it's there?
Of course not.
You're not going to start out playing the "technique" perfect. Nor, are you going to play the song perfect, at first.
Different terms, same result.

It's all in what you want to do.

If your goal is to play fast music...the only way to get there is to play fast music.
If you want to have fast chops...well, you just have to practice fast chops.
If you want to be very musical...you have to practice being musical.
If you want to have a deep pocket...you have to practice having a deep pocket.
If you want your drums to sound good... you have to practice that.
If you want to develop your listening skills...you have to place yourself in a situation that allows you to practice that.
See where I'm going here?
None of this stuff just happens, and you don't work on your listening skills by wanting to be "musical".

Know body starts out... being great. So yes, while you do see a lot of learning and "bad technique" on youtube...they had to start somewhere.
Haha.
And, if they have all the qualities of being a great drummer....they'll get there by doing all those things.

Cheers,
D.

[ermghoti]

Maybe other people are different, but I often advance my technique by thinking about it! Just recently: I am starting to incorporate the Moeller motion, and while my right hand picked it up almost instantly, my left hand felt like there were a couple of three-year-olds yanking on it. After reflecting on the difference, away from the kit, I realized I was tucking my left elbow against my body, which I often do*, although while I was playing, it simply felt as if the rotation upwards was simply unpracticed and awkward, when in fact, it was in the wrong plane.

"You're not going to start out playing the "technique" perfect. Nor, are you going to play the song perfect, at first."

I guess, based on my own experiences, it's easier for me to learn a technique, then apply it to a tempo, rather than force a tempo and hope the technique I develop is efficient. We may be talking about the same thing, but either way, I hope it benefits the OP.

How about this: do you have the Jojo Mayer DVD? His approach is basically what I would advocate: he shows a given technique in large, exaggerated, slow movements, so that one can feel what muscles do what. From there, he tightens the movements gradually, until the streamlined version used at full speed is reached. I find it difficult to believe that somebody attempting to learn valving would do as well forcing a 200bpm 16th roll, as somebody who took a week playing at 60 bpm, and then a couple weeks speeding up 5-10 beats at a time.

Anyway, it's ridiculous for me to argue with a legendary technician on technique, so I'll bow out here before I embarrass myself further. :D

*Which, in turn, I just now figured out I do to keep the hihat hand away from the snare hand. Now I think I can break that habit permanently!

[Big_Philly]

Both of these methods seem very plausible. I guess I'll just use both, practising at slow speeds to get my technique right, and then playing along with double bass songs. I think I'll start with some Sonata Arctica, some of their songs are a little modest, say, 160-170 bpm 16ths. So 30 minutes of 16ths at 40-60bpm, then playing along to songs is what I will try.

[Derek Roddy]

How about this: do you have the Jojo Mayer DVD? His approach is basically what I would advocate: he shows a given technique in large, exaggerated, slow movements, so that one can feel what muscles do what. From there, he tightens the movements gradually, until the streamlined version used at full speed is reached. I find it difficult to believe that somebody attempting to learn valving would do as well forcing a 200bpm 16th roll, as somebody who took a week playing at 60 bpm, and then a couple weeks speeding up 5-10 beats at a time.

Anyway, it's ridiculous for me to argue with a legendary technician on technique, so I'll bow out here before I embarrass myself further. :D


I don't think you're arguing. This is a great discussion.

Yes, I have JoJo's DVD.
It's a great DVD too.
BUT, I don't think any of the information in it should be called "techniques".

What JoJo has always taught is "physical principles".
Simply, what happens to a stick... while it's in your hands as you're playing drums.

As JoJo says in the DVD.....what does the drum stick Naturally want to do while you're throwing it down to the drum, and what it wants to do on it's way back up.

It's a physical principle to.... loosen your grip just before impact to create a better feel, sound, and reaction from the stick and drum....not a "technique".

If you can figure that out....technique doesn't matter.
You'll have better results going to the library and checking out a physics book on motion.

I'll tell you all a quick story....
A few years ago a guitar player friend of mine had recorded with a new drummer in town. He wanted me to listen to this guys groove and feel on the drums.
Man, it was unbelievable.
The amount of emotion that was coming from that CD was killin' me.
The sounds he was getting out of his drums and the way the parts seemed to just float by.....it was some of the best drumming I've heard on recorded media in a very long time.

The feel this guy had... rivals Gadd and Porcaro. I had to go SEE this guy play.
Well, I did........and it was the most painful experience I have ever been to.
When this guy played....he looked like he was being suffocated in a plastic bag by a mafia member. Haha.
It was So painful to watch.
One stick was headed one way the other....another way. His limbs didn't even look like they were part of the same person. He looked like he was fighting for his life up there.
To this day....I can't watch dude play but, he's one of my favorite drummers to listen to.

So I ask, DOES technique really matter?
Let me put it another way....is technique THAT important when it comes to our jobs.....which is providing feel, emotion and pulse for music?

So yes, while in our quest to "become the drummers we want to be".....physical principles are really important.
If you don't understand how motion works.....no technique will help you but, if you understand these "principles".....you won't need all these "techniques".

The drum stick will naturally be working with you.
Same goes for a bass drum pedal, understand the physical principles of how it works....and it doesn't matter what technique you use to get that round beater to the head.

Make sense?

Cheers
D.

[Therma lobsterdore]

Both of these methods seem very plausible. I guess I'll just use both, practising at slow speeds to get my technique right, and then playing along with double bass songs. I think I'll start with some Sonata Arctica, some of their songs are a little modest, say, 160-170 bpm 16ths. So 30 minutes of 16ths at 40-60bpm, then playing along to songs is what I will try.

That's exactly what I do Philly, I practice rudiments and technique for an hour or so at slow speeds, where I concentrate on form and technique, then I play to fast songs for an hour or so. When faced with two good options why would you pick just one!

I used to play near or beyond my limit all the time like Derek describes, but I found that I adopted poor technique as a result and hit a wall around the 180 - 200bpm area with my hands and feet. Then I read a thread here about practicing slow, so I started doing 40bpm single stroke rolls with hands + feet at the same time, focusing on using my ankles and fingers. Doing this has seriously helped out my playing, I now use the ankle motion most of the time and my fingers are coming in to play more and more, I can play along to faster songs already and I've only been doing it for a 3 - 4 months.

I must stress that I've always wanted to play high speed extreme metal, so I'm not chasing speed for speeds sake, I'm chasing it because of the style of music that I want to play.

[Derek Roddy]

I found that I adopted poor technique as a result and hit a wall around the 180 - 200bpm area with my hands and feet.


You didn't adapt poor technique (why would you do that?)....you just didn't understand the "physical principles" of going beyond that BPM.... there fore you weren't able to obtain it.
There is a BIG physical barrier from 190 - 210 that requires a physical change....not a technique change.

Most younger drummers will blame "technique" because they can't break this barrier. It has nothing to do with technique or A technique.

In order to break that barrier, you have to rethink the physical principle of motion that allows this tempo increase to happen.
Lower stick height, smaller motions, loosing up... not tightening up,etc....

These are all physical changes not technique changes.

Cheers.
D.

[Big_Philly]

Well my case is much more pathetic: I can't seem to go beyond 120-140 (16ths) cleanly and relaxed. So I'm stil pretty far from the 190-210... I think I need to mainly focus on the slow stuff before I go playing along to fast songs. I can do "Black Sheep" by sonata arctica but that's very hard to do already. So I really do think I need to work on the motion (technique) of my left foot (my right foot can keep up with anything up to 190 bpm 8th notes).

[Derek Roddy]

Maybe other people are different, but I often advance my technique by thinking about it!

This is a great statement.
80% of my practicing takes place in my head.
That's how I learned left foot clave' and most other patterns... I use at the kit.

This is also part of my conclusion, that the word "technique" is a crutch for most drummers....not of any actual benefit.
If asked to most drummers....what is technique....I don't think you would get the correct term of the word.
Which is.....The manner with which a person fulfills the technical requirements of his or her particular art or craft.
Haha...that could mean anything.

I put more thought into becoming a better drummer..... not looking for ways to become a better drummer.
Does that even make sense? Haha.

Cheers.
D.

[Big_Philly]

I put more thought into becoming a better drummer..... not looking for ways to become a better drummer.
Does that even make sense? Haha.




Yeah that does. Though I would say that mindlessly running into practise won't get you anywhere. You need to know what you are doing when you practise, and what to expect. I can spend countless hours on this forum and reading drum literature and collect lots of pieces to the puzzle of drumming, but only when I start putting foot to a** (or bass drum pedal) and apply the pieces I will become a better drummer.
The "looking for ways to become a better drummer", to me, is finding a lot of information on drumming which will, in turn, help me actually play better.

[ermghoti]

I think I'm getting closer to following you, and we definitely are approaching language a little differently. I don't even mean "argument" to be "a contentious dispute" but "defending a position through logic!"

To some extent, I do think we're saying the same things differently, particularly the use of the word "technique." I certainly don't mean to imply that the path forward is through some study of secret finger positions, hinging motions, rotations or whatever, in the way that cheesy Hong Kong action movies suggest one can run 100 mph by refining one's footwork following ancient scrolls. To the extent that you are talking about relaxing through the stroke, and economizing motion, I am in 100% agreement.

What has been observed in the thread is not so much that technique changes all that much as speed increases, but that there is a tendency for individuals to inappropriately change their technique in an attempt to extend their upper threshold, ie the tensing up described by more than one poster. I'd agree again, that if one's technique (or "grasp of physical principles, to use your language), is fundamentally sound, the way forward is to practice faster tempos. Also, I concede the great divide between being able to produce notes at a tempo, and to play music in a given style at that tempo.

My premise is that most people that ask "how do I play 250bmp 16ths" are not playing fundamentally efficient strokes at their current tempo, which is what limits them. This is the same thing (to me, anyway) that you posted to Thermadore a couple of posts up.

While it may be possible to refine their stroke at their current level, I still strongly feel that it would be faster to re-examine the makeup of the learner's stroke at a lower, probably much lower, tempo, to reduce the tendency for muscle memory to intrude into the needed refinement of the stroke.

I keep trying to cook up non-drumming analogies, but I don't like any of them so far. Well, except the Muppet-armed drummer your guitar playing friend found. He sounds like the PGA's Jim Furyk, one of the most accurate players in the game. His swing has been described as looking like he's trying to kill a snake inside a phone booth. However, if it is broken down, particularly in slow motion or high-speed photography, the stroke is, of course, fundamentally sound. Despite some very weird curlicues the club makes in a couple of places, the club is accelerating through a square plane at the moment of impact, which is all that affects the trajectory of the ball.

Contrast that with the swing that Charles Barkley famously uses. He freezes at the top of the swing, violating several fundamental principles. Unlike Furyk, Barkley's swing is miserably flawed, as his eccentricities are true flaws, negatively affecting the club's motion during impact.

I have no idea where I'm going with any of this, but I'll post some ostensibly amusing video.

Furyk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMPaZ3WaGGI

Barkley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s50K65PNeBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFtoeQlO0Ho&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5chdYDbYQAA

[T-1000]

I'll tell you all a quick story....
A few years ago a guitar player friend of mine had recorded with a new drummer in town. He wanted me to listen to this guys groove and feel on the drums.
Man, it was unbelievable.
The amount of emotion that was coming from that CD was killin' me.
The sounds he was getting out of his drums and the way the parts seemed to just float by.....it was some of the best drumming I've heard on recorded media in a very long time.

Hi Derek, who is this guy? Does his band have a myspace?

Man, these two schools of thought are totally contradictory. I am confused right now. However, like others have said, might as well try both(!)

[Ben Tormey]

I think Derek's is essentially saying that you develop techniques that allow you to play better (maybe faster, or with more independence etc.) naturally simply by playing; and that learning a new technique (say, from a DVD) is actually increasing the amount of work you have to do, since you have to become proficient at it, then learn to apply it in your playing.

[metal overlord]

What I did was started slow, used a metranome and practiced and practiced. I baught a ton of DVD's, books, downloads, and stuff like that.

Practice both heal up and down. Always start slow, use a metranome and don't give up if you don't get it the first time. Keep trying.

[rabbit-]

This discussion is awesome.

Derek, yours posts are exactly what I needed to read. Thanks.

You kind of have a Bruce Lee way of explaining things.

[Tutin]

This is a great statement.
80% of my practicing takes place in my head.
That's how I learned left foot clave' and most other patterns... I use at the kit.

This is also part of my conclusion, that the word "technique" is a crutch for most drummers....not of any actual benefit.
If asked to most drummers....what is technique....I don't think you would get the correct term of the word.
Which is.....The manner with which a person fulfills the technical requirements of his or her particular art or craft.
Haha...that could mean anything.

I put more thought into becoming a better drummer..... not looking for ways to become a better drummer.
Does that even make sense? Haha.

Cheers.
D.

Derek, I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread so far. It's all stuff I've applied to my own playing. I hadn't heard about a specific technique until I was about 16 (two years ago), I just hit the drum with the stick and tried to make it as ergonomic and fluent as possible. I eventually heard about Moeller Technique and it turns out my hands developed it naturally, Gladstone was the same. Finger technique too, I noticed my hands moved to that when my wrists burned out. So I believe what you're saying about thinking about physical principles, you've put into words what I've always been thinking. Thanks for that.

Now about the above post, mental practice. I do the same thing. I read a while ago that in an experiment, the improvement swimmers who trained physically and others who trained mentally were 25% and 24% respectively. Bodybuilders muscles will build even when they think about lifting weights. I find the power of the mind amazing and it's such a great form of practice.

I've found that thinking about myself playing faster perfectly boosts the speed at which I improve. It's pretty cool. Do you do anything like this?

Thanks

T

[Therma lobsterdore]

You didn't adapt poor technique (why would you do that?)....you just didn't understand the "physical principles" of going beyond that BPM.... there fore you weren't able to obtain it.
There is a BIG physical barrier from 190 - 210 that requires a physical change....not a technique change.

Most younger drummers will blame "technique" because they can't break this barrier. It has nothing to do with technique or A technique.

In order to break that barrier, you have to rethink the physical principle of motion that allows this tempo increase to happen.
Lower stick height, smaller motions, loosing up... not tightening up,etc....

These are all physical changes not technique changes.

Cheers.
D.

Thanks for your posts Derek, I've seen you comment in speed threads before but I've never seen you explain your thoughts in such detail, nice one!

Anywho when I say technique I did of course mean a physical change, I thought that's what technique as applied to the drumset meant? It's a certain physical way of approaching playing right?

What I needed to do was get used to the ankle motion needed for fast double bass, and I needed to loosen and relax my hands and make full use of rebound. Now if you've got these motions down at high speed already then you probably don't need to practice these motions slowly, I however could not get my body to use these motions, and all I did was mash away at high speed without getting anywhere!

I found that when I started practicing the high speed motions at low speed, such as the ankle motion, and low strokes with a relaxed grip, these motions became a part of my high speed playing and I can now play faster more efficiently. But like I said, I don't advocate just going slow, I advocate PRATICING slow so you can concentrating on the physical motions more effectively, and then playing to fast music.

This has definitely worked for me Derek and that's all that matters I guess, people learn in different ways after all!

[autonomos]

Technique is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It's a tool used to achieve a particular goal in a musical context.
If the common goal is for instance 200+ bpm, there's no argument about the objective. The differences in opinion are all about the techniques used to obtain the objective; and furthermore, the exercises used to develop said techniques.
If that makes sense.
The thing is, I think most of us have been taught that to achieve a certain goal (200+) you need to learn a certain technique, which in turn means long and slow hours of practicing certain exercises (repetition, muscle memory, etc.).

[Derek Roddy]

What I needed to do was get used to the ankle motion needed for fast double bass

You don't need ankle motion to play fast. Who told you that?
I play 16ths up to 265 with my ankles locked!!!! All the motion comes from my hip.
To say that you need a pivoting ankle motion to play fast double bass... is simply incorrect.
Some people use ankle...some don't.
So in the instance of those who don't.....working on ankle technique is going to do nothing for them but.... take away time from what they have already learned.


This has definitely worked for me Derek and that's all that matters I guess, people learn in different ways after all!

Yes nobody is the same but..... can I ask a question here?
How many people (who have responded to this thread) is where they want to be with speed?
Who here is playing as fast as they want too?

Because.....I am! Haha.

I know most all the dudes who are playing fast tempos and if you were to ask any of them how they did it.....they will tell you "by jamming in a band and playing music". Not sitting in a practice room working on getting fast.
Hell, most of them can't tell you how they did it because they don't think they did anything other than like the music and play the music..
It's in all of us to ask the question....."How do they do that?" when you, yourself can't.
When you learn that it takes years.....not weeks, to be able to play those tempos......drummers quickly look toward technique like it's this magical thing that is going to solve all your drumming needs.
It's not.

If we... as learning drummers, can forget this technique quest, you will find that time spent is your best teacher.
I've never had lessons.
I've never "worked" on speed.
It all came to me by just doing it.

I'll ask the question again....
Who here is were they want to be concerning speed?

Cheers guys....great topic.
D.

[ermghoti]

I'll ask the question again....
Who here is were they want to be concerning speed?
D.

I am... on guitar! I hope to do the same on drums.

[T-1000]

You don't need ankle motion to play fast. Who told you that?
I play 16ths up to 265 with my ankles locked!!!! All the motion comes from my hip.

Hi Derek, umm earlier in your 'Derek Roddy' thread on drummerworld, you said that 'flatfoot' is basically regular heel up with your feet at a flatter angle relative to the pedal.

But, if your foot technique is, as you say here, with your ankles locked and all the power coming from your hip - isn't that technique radically different to regular heel up? Because heel up and heel down both involve the ankle pivoting and not being fixed.

I was wondering if you could explain your technique a little clearer - I know not every could/should/is going to use it because what works for everyone is different, but I'd be interested to know how this works for you anyway...

Thanks

[Therma lobsterdore]

Who here is playing as fast as they want too?

Because.....I am! Haha.

Hehe there's certainly no doubt about that!

I've heard about the the ankle motion being the key to high speed foot work from many many sources and players, but your right it's not necessarily the key, it's hours of practice and dedication that will get you there at the end of the day, I didn't mean to imply that that was not the case, we merely have different practice techniques that's all.

[Derek Roddy]

Hi Derek, umm earlier in your 'Derek Roddy' thread on drummerworld, you said that 'flatfoot' is basically regular heel up with your feet at a flatter angle relative to the pedal.

But, if your foot technique is, as you say here, with your ankles locked and all the power coming from your hip - isn't that technique radically different to regular heel up? Because heel up and heel down both involve the ankle pivoting and not being fixed.

I was wondering if you could explain your technique a little clearer - I know not every could/should/is going to use it because what works for everyone is different, but I'd be interested to know how this works for you anyway...

Thanks

Here is the best example I have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaMAHphUTnk

When I play heel up....I still lock my ankles.
Just something I've always done. It's the way I learned.
Some guys will hold their legs up in the air and use their ankle to get the pedal moving.
To me....holding 50 pounds of mass up in the air ( your leg) so you can pivot your ankle doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
That's a lot of wasted energy. (This is like playing your ride cymbal up in the air...holding your arm up to play a cymbal is much more energy consuming than... playing it low so your elbows are at your sides.)

In the case of me locking my ankle......I use the high tension of my pedal to "push" my leg back up.
I don't use my hips to pull the leg back up....I use them to push the pedal down.
Cheers.
D.

[Big_Philly]

In the case of me locking my ankle......I use the high tension of my pedal to "push" my leg back up.
I don't use my hips to pull the leg back up....I use them to push the pedal down.
Cheers.
D.
I have very heavy legs, I noticed you are quite skinny. Does that matter much?

[Derek Roddy]

I have very heavy legs, I noticed you are quite skinny. Does that matter much?


Hahaha.
Upon watching Gene Hoglan play drums...... I'd say not!

Cheers.
D.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Hahaha.
Upon watching Gene Hoglan play drums...... I'd say not!

Cheers.
D.

Or Nick Barker.

Actually, I know a few big guys with fast hands and powerful ankles. It's like NFL defensive lineman, they're surprisingly fast for their size.

[Big_Philly]

Hahaha.
Upon watching Gene Hoglan play drums...... I'd say not!

Cheers.
D.

Whoa, he's quite a big guy indeed. Point taken.

[Ben Tormey]

I heard Gene Hoglan once played chicken with a house, and he won.

[Big_Philly]

Superman wears Gene Hoglan pajamas...

[Therma lobsterdore]

Gene Hoglan sweats gravy, fact!

[Rodaquino]

I recommend you of course start slowly,practice every day with a machine (fruity loops,reason or whatever)because is more funny that a beep metronome,for me the Bible of book to practice is The George Stone Stick Control,you can use for feet and is Great!!!!,another great & funny book is the "encyclopedia of double bass"from Bobby Rondinelli,.a good tip is play hell down & hell up AND look for every configuration on your pedals!(I USE Axis),tension,position ...tension of the drumhead,all!well Good Luck my friend!

[metal overlord]

Hahaha.
Upon watching Gene Hoglan play drums...... I'd say not!

Cheers.
D.

Or Vinny Paul. He is a somewhat large man and he is a great drummer. Chris Slade is...well I've never saw him but as of what I saw on the AC/DC DVD he looks large. Yet he is a great drummer.

Dereks point is: (I think)

Short, fat, tall, skinny, doesn't matter.

[Tutin]

Gene said that Slayer were the first people he let hear him on the drumkit. That's so damned cool.

[Big_Philly]

One more for the road:
Gene Hoglan can slam a revolving door...

Now, back on topic...

[Wile E. Coyote]

Speed comes with control.
This is a very true statement, BUT...if your wanting to play fast music....there is a faster way and that is to jump into it and work out the kinks as you go.
You have to really pay attention to your posture, technique, etc...
But, if you're observant... you can get away with this.
And doesn't this contradict a previous post where you said that working with slow tempi (=being observant) doesn't help?
Of course speed is built up by pushing up the limits, no question about that. BUT it has to be done in a conscious way and going back to the basics every time, watching every single move and wondering why it goes wrong.
Another thing! Use a mirror; it might give some answers whenever you work on technical issues.

Cheers to you too!!

[Derek Roddy]

And doesn't this contradict a previous post where you said that working with slow tempi (=being observant) doesn't help?


Well, that would depend on your definition of being observant.
Slowing tempo down....IMO... is not being observant.
As your tempo increases...there are physical changes.
So, if your goal is to play 16th singles at 240.....dropping the tempo down is no longer working the same micro muscle groups... that pushing 240 will.

The best way to explain it is....
A long distance runner doesn't train (to run a 25 mile race) the same way a sprint runner trains.
Why would a long distance runner work on being fast for short periods... if his goal is to run as long and steady as he can?
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to train for distance... since that's what he will be running?

BUT it has to be done in a conscious way and going back to the basics every time, watching every single move and wondering why it goes wrong.

This is something I've been trying to figure out about drummer for a long time......

Why does something have to "go wrong"?
What is going to "go wrong"?

You're swinging a stick to make the sound and rhythm you want.

Why do most of us drummers think we are going to end up with permanent damage from swinging a 16 once stick?
There are construction workers that swing 2 pound hammers for 30 years of their life...without complaint of hurting themselves... other than maybe a smashed thumb!

Why do we think we are so worried about having "bad technique"?

I think we drummers worry too much about that type of thing and use it for a crutch for "not reaching" our goals.
"My technique isn't right....that's why I can't play what X drummer does".

Or, is it that X drummer just spent more time playing his drums?

D.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Slowing tempo down....IMO... is not being observant.
(...)
The best way to explain it is....
A long distance runner doesn't train (to run a 25 mile race) the same way a sprint runner trains.
Why would a long distance runner work on being fast for short periods... if his goal is to run as long and steady as he can?
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to train for distance... since that's what he will be running?

hehehehe I don't think you believe that I mean "slowing down the tempo and acting like a monkey". I mean slow down and see where you are getting stiff; tey to imagine how it should be in slow motion and then, when puting it up to speed, keep that picture in mind.
God... I sound like a technique nerd... And I'm not! I just think that technique is ABSOLUTELY necessary, but it doesn't make music by itself, it's a mere tool.
Even athletes look at their movements in slow motion to get a perfect coordination and harmony.
But I don't think we dissagree at all! Of course speed is built by puching it! But checking it closely and patiently is crucial.

This is something I've been trying to figure out about drummer for a long time......

Why does something have to "go wrong"?
What is going to "go wrong"?

You're swinging a stick to make the sound and rhythm you want.

Why do most of us drummers think we are going to end up with permanent damage from swinging a 16 once stick?
There are construction workers that swing 2 pound hammers for 30 years of their life...without complaint of hurting themselves... other than maybe a smashed thumb!

Why do we think we are so worried about having "bad technique"?


Having a bad technique is trying to say something and not knowing the word to express it.
Don't get me wrong... I'm far beyond the question "technique yes or no?" or "technique vs. feeling", I'm not the one to discuss that. I have the technique I need to play what I have to play, that means, no issues; and if I suddenly have one, then I get into the practice room and solve it, not expecting the feeling to do the job me.
It goes wrong when you try to play straight 16ths and can't hold it more than 30 seconds when you're expected to hold it for 2 minutes.
Bad technique is not about postures or perfect motions and sh*t like that... It about being unable to play something we want/need/have/wish/are asked to play.

Sorry for the long and enoying post...

Cheers! It's fun to discuss with you!

[darkstar442]

Being able tp play ridiculous speeds is what i have been aiming for but you have to keep in mind that if you try to push the barrier to hard then it may swing back at you. If you can get it up to 200 but cant keep it, it's not going to do you much good. take it to 150, get endurance and then speed it up at a good pass. i used to keep to pretty fast speeds and play for 20 seconds but i couldnt do it again because i tensed up and hurt my legs and knees. so pushing it to far will hurt you. practice around your fastest speeds that you can control then speed up later. its not going to go fast and if you cant go really fast its not your pedal.... lol (in most cases) but dont forget to practice other things. drumming needs to be inproved in all areas

[Uaarkson]

I can't believe you guys are trying to argue with Derek Roddy. o_O

Thanks a ton for the advice dude.

[schist]

I can't believe you guys are trying to argue with Derek Roddy. o_O


Fanboy much?

202020202020

[ermghoti]

The best way to explain it is....
A long distance runner doesn't train (to run a 25 mile race) the same way a sprint runner trains.
Why would a long distance runner work on being fast for short periods... if his goal is to run as long and steady as he can?
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to train for distance... since that's what he will be running?

But we're talking about the opposite. A sprinter certainly does learn how to come off the blocks in slow motion, for instance. After the practice becomes second nature, it will be muscle memory, whether it was learned properly or not is another story. The distance runner does, indeed, need endurance, and so do drummers. But, if you have a flaw in your stride (or your stroke), building up endurance will be of limited utility.



Why do most of us drummers think we are going to end up with permanent damage from swinging a 16 once stick?

When I first started, my grip was pretty flawed, and since I was practicing on a rubber-padded eKit, I quickly got disturbing wrist pain. I very nearly quit, but lessons have straightened me out. Another drummer I know, despite being pretty good, gets blisters easily, until he develops gnarly callouses (he goes back and forth from guitar to drums periodically), because he doesn't use the fulcrum properly, and has to death-grip to avoid losing the stick (IMO).

The way I fixed myself (and the way the other guy is not fixing himself) was to go to at about one stroke per two seconds, watching the rebound, observing how I controlled the stroke, comparing my left and right hands, the position of my arms, my posture. A bunch of things I wasn't noticing playing at speed, concerning myself with maintaining tempo and groove.

There are construction workers that swing 2 pound hammers for 30 years of their life...without complaint of hurting themselves... other than maybe a smashed thumb!

I also met a guy who worked as a roofer for one summer, and had carpal tunnel the rest of his life. Repetitive impacts, even fairly gentle ones, can quickly ruin a joint.

I think we drummers worry too much about that type of thing and use it for a crutch for "not reaching" our goals.
"My technique isn't right....that's why I can't play what X drummer does".

Or, is it that X drummer just spent more time playing his drums?

D.

Of course. I think we've established earlier that you view "working on technique" as a belief that learning a new way of playing magically opens the road forward. I'd suggest that your description or "using physical principles" is what many of us mean when we say "work on technique."


I can't believe you guys are trying to argue with Derek Roddy. o_O

I could assemble a list of legendary drummers and instructors that I am agreeing with. Morello, GL Stone, and Jojo Mayer come to mind without any effort, but this isn't a name-dropping competition. If Derek's ideas are inherently better than what I have been doing so far, I'll adopt them, but I have yet to be convinced.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Derek's way is how most of us metal drummers did it. I used to play along to Reign in Blood until I couldn't move my legs anymore.

For me and my generation the first fast double kick song was "Fast as a Shark" by Accept. We just jumped in and tried it and just got faster from there. We pretty much ran on the pedals

Years later, as I polished my technique, I started slowing everything down to "fine tune" it. I began to get more results from less effort. But
the foundation came from just "jumping in the deep end"

BTW, All of the drumming injuries I see are hand and shoulder stuff. I've never seen anyone hurt their legs from a tiring double kick workout.

[Derek Roddy]

But we're talking about the opposite. A sprinter certainly does learn how to come off the blocks in slow motion, for instance. After the practice becomes second nature, it will be muscle memory, whether it was learned properly or not is another story. The distance runner does, indeed, need endurance, and so do drummers. But, if you have a flaw in your stride (or your stroke), building up endurance will be of limited utility.


When I first started, my grip was pretty flawed, and since I was practicing on a rubber-padded eKit, I quickly got disturbing wrist pain. I very nearly quit, but lessons have straightened me out. Another drummer I know, despite being pretty good, gets blisters easily, until he develops gnarly callouses (he goes back and forth from guitar to drums periodically), because he doesn't use the fulcrum properly, and has to death-grip to avoid losing the stick (IMO).

The way I fixed myself (and the way the other guy is not fixing himself) was to go to at about one stroke per two seconds, watching the rebound, observing how I controlled the stroke, comparing my left and right hands, the position of my arms, my posture. A bunch of things I wasn't noticing playing at speed, concerning myself with maintaining tempo and groove.



I also met a guy who worked as a roofer for one summer, and had carpal tunnel the rest of his life. Repetitive impacts, even fairly gentle ones, can quickly ruin a joint.



Of course. I think we've established earlier that you view "working on technique" as a belief that learning a new way of playing magically opens the road forward. I'd suggest that your description or "using physical principles" is what many of us mean when we say "work on technique."



I could assemble a list of legendary drummers and instructors that I am agreeing with. Morello, GL Stone, and Jojo Mayer come to mind without any effort, but this isn't a name-dropping competition. If Derek's ideas are inherently better than what I have been doing so far, I'll adopt them, but I have yet to be convinced.


I think you're missing the point here.
Yes, it is important to work on "technique", but what these guys are trying to achieve.....(endurance runs playing 16ths at 230 for minutes at a time)
takes training.....Not a technique.

The search for a technique that will allow you to do... what others spent 10 years to develop is bogus. There is not such a technique.

It's all mindset really.
The ones who get there....
get there by doing it, Not wanting to do it.
(Which is 9 times out of 10 what drummers say)...."I'd love to able to play 16ths at 220......."

So DO it.

Like I said before.....I'm where I want to be with speed and endurance.
I didn't get there by wanting to be there.....I did it by DOING it.

I had no lessons, No DVD's when I was a kid, and nobody to learn from where I grew up.
I was all alone....
Proving that learning all these "methods" and "techniques" are not a necessity.
True, the search for the perfect technique may benefit some ( this goes back to the "mindset" issue...if you believe they help you.....then they DO) but, they are not "necessary".

Funny, having never spent any time on techniques or technique...
I get a lot of compliments about how "good" mine is and questions about which ones I studied. Haha.

In all honesty, I believe these teachers (Morello, Gladstone, Stone, etc...) designed those "methods" to keep students.... students.
If those methods were the answer to the drumming problems we all have.....those teachers wouldn't have repeat business....in turn meaning.... that they wouldn't have any income.
In those days....that's how those guys supported themselves and their families.
Writing those classic books and teaching those classic methods.

They are great methods for learning drummers and always good to study for drummers of all ages....but, they are not "necessary" to make a great drummer.

Wanting to do something as physical as extreme metal drumming...requires a different approach than learning a fast chop. Working on technique to do it... does not achieve optimal results in this particular case.
I know this from many years of watching my students.
If you want to do this type of playing....you have to push beyond what you are comfortable with.
Making 200 "comfortable" will not make 220 any easier.

Jump into it, conquer...WIN!

Cheers.
D.

[sticksnstonesrus]

Agreed. The best mindset-post I've ever seen yet Derek.

This philospohy in a parallel intrument:

Imagine if Eddie V. Halen had a "teacher".

Jimi Hendrix?

In our world..we are the best examples of ourselves. It's our nature to watch, interpret, and apply. What we do with the knowledge acquired, how we apply, is what makes us different...and sometimes, great.

[ermghoti]

I think you're missing the point here.
Yes, it is important to work on "technique", but what these guys are trying to achieve.....(endurance runs playing 16ths at 230 for minutes at a time)
takes training.....Not a technique.

The search for a technique that will allow you to do... what others spent 10 years to develop is bogus. There is not such a technique.

I recognize that, and I thought I had said as much already. I'm not talking about learning a technique, I'm talking about refining one's technique. Eliminating extraneous motion. Maximizing rebound and control. Generating maximum force with minimum effort. Somebody can play "locked up" as you do, heel up, heel down, slide, heel-toe, whatever. That's not important. However, using whatever technique you are using efficiently is.

I would point out that you have discussed your own technique in this thread, recommending the use of the large leg muscles, with the ankles quiet. As you say, this in and of itself does not make a neophyte drummer into a speedster. However, somebody adopting this method would need to learn it, which I would suggest would be better done at 100 bpm than 250.

OTOH entirely, if this were somebody who can play 200ish, talking about reaching 250ish, I'd be inclined to agree with you entirely. My bias is such that when I see these threads, I assume their capabilities lag well short of that.

I had no lessons, No DVD's when I was a kid, and nobody to learn from where I grew up.
I was all alone....
Proving that learning all these "methods" and "techniques" are not a necessity.
True, the search for the perfect technique may benefit some ( this goes back to the "mindset" issue...if you believe they help you.....then they DO) but, they are not "necessary".

Funny, having never spent any time on techniques or technique...
I get a lot of compliments about how "good" mine is and questions about which ones I studied. Haha.

The fact that nobody taught you technique doesn't mean you didn't learn it. You simply inferred it as you went along. Fortunately for you, a good technique was reflexively comfortable, all the way up into the high 200's. That may not be true of everyone.

In all honesty, I believe these teachers (Morello, Gladstone, Stone, etc...) designed those "methods" to keep students.... students.
If those methods were the answer to the drumming problems we all have.....those teachers wouldn't have repeat business....in turn meaning.... that they wouldn't have any income.
In those days....that's how those guys supported themselves and their families.
Writing those classic books and teaching those classic methods.

They are great methods for learning drummers and always good to study for drummers of all ages....but, they are not "necessary" to make a great drummer.

I might suggest that if these methods didn't work, they would be abandoned. In fact, they do work, and drummers of all levels that take lessons from, say a Morello, come away with tangible improvements. If people didn't get results, the school of thought would perish.

Wanting to do something as physical as extreme metal drumming...requires a different approach than learning a fast chop. Working on technique to do it... does not achieve optimal results in this particular case.
I know this from many years of watching my students.
If you want to do this type of playing....you have to push beyond what you are comfortable with.
Making 200 "comfortable" will not make 220 any easier.

Jump into it, conquer...WIN!

Cheers.
D.

Fair enough. In my experience, I can only push as far as my foundation is broad. In guitar, bass, keyboard, and now drums, moving up to a new level of speed can reveal a physical/endurance limit, and/or a technique flaw. One is to be addressed with force, the other with analysis. Alternatively, as a couple of people have mentioned, there can be a tendency to "cheat" or relax, getting sloppy in one's form, especially during endurance training.

I tend to warm up at my comfortable speed, push that tempo a good bit higher than I play cleanly, and then slow back down. The slower tempos reinforce proper form, the faster drills are the workout.

I wonder again if we're actually particularly far apart in our views...

[Wile E. Coyote]

In all honesty, I believe these teachers (Morello, Gladstone, Stone, etc...) designed those "methods" to keep students.... students.
If those methods were the answer to the drumming problems we all have.....those teachers wouldn't have repeat business....in turn meaning.... that they wouldn't have any income.
In those days....that's how those guys supported themselves and their families.
Writing those classic books and teaching those classic methods.

Woah... That's certainly not fair to say. The only thing wrong with techniques is following them without questioning them and trying to get the best of everyone of them to finally build one's own.

But you're right in a way... But it's nothing wrong with the techniques themselves, it is with people teaching them like a dogma. Møller, Gladstone, French, Dutch, German... All of them are fantastic and worth taking a look at them for an experienced player, someone capable to understand why they are good and why they are not and taking the best of them. For a beginner they are just a bunch of abstract and ununderstandable concepts.
Techniques are built after 20-30-40 years of playing! They are something alive, that changes through the years, sometimes just because of tireness of playing the same way!

You didn't have a teacher... Well, I had too many and I remember some of them were very bad, and I thought the same way as you! But years after I somehow realized that I, like you, had more than enough speed and power to play what I wanted. Suddenly I had built my own technique and woops!, suddenly I realize that it's what allows me to be musical without having to worry about my hands!
Is this leading me somewhere? Probably not... Well, it took time to write so I post it, hope you're ok with it!
I can't believe you guys are trying to argue with Derek Roddy. o_O

He's certainly the one to be arguing with as long he's ok with it! He has obviously wise answers worth reading!

[Derek Roddy]

I wonder again if we're actually particularly far apart in our views...

We are not. I agree with everything you said.

Somebody can play "locked up" as you do

I don't play "locked up".... I just don't pivot my ankles when playing fast alternating singles.
It's a very loose motion actually. Otherwise....I play just like any of you do or would.

I would point out that you have discussed your own technique in this thread, recommending the use of the large leg muscles

No I didn't. I was simply asked how I played fast notes.
I never "recommend" one... trying my "technique". This motion may only be applicable to me.
And this... is the problem I have with todays younger drummers searching for the perfect "technique". I bet there are drummers right now.....trying to change what they are doing because some dude (me) on a website said.... it works for them.

THIS is how injuries happen.... Changing what your body has been doing for god knows how long...for another motion. The body is a great adapter but....doesn't do well with sudden changes.
I've seen it many times now....a drummer didn't have any problems until they changed something.
Of course, if you're beating like a monkey...you're going to hurt yourself. In this case, you simply need to use common sense and take a physics course. Haha.
Learning about motion helps more than learning 15 different techniques. Gravity really only works one way.

I'm talking about refining one's technique. Eliminating extraneous motion. Maximizing rebound and control. Generating maximum force with minimum effort.

This happens naturally over time, if we focus on it... or not.
We will always "refine" our playing as long as we are playing. You just need to be aware of motion and how it works. It doesn't take "mastering" a physical principle with someones name attached to it.

However, somebody adopting this method would need to learn it, which I would suggest would be better done at 100 bpm than 250.

Not true... because you don't not use the same motion at 100 that you do to play 250.
Your body will tell you how it's going to do what you command of it....IF you listen. Adapting this style of learning comes from playing the drums.... not searching the internet or thumbing through method books.
Of course, unless you are actually playing at 250.....you wouldn't know that each tempo requires a slightly different method. Which is why most think... in order to play 250 you must first get 200. Not true.

My bias is such that when I see these threads, I assume their capabilities lag well short of that.

Well, that's a given. I know most of the drummers personally... that play fast music. I only know 4 or 5 that can actually PLAY 250 or above.

The fact that nobody taught you technique doesn't mean you didn't learn it. You simply inferred it as you went along. Fortunately for you, a good technique was reflexively comfortable, all the way up into the high 200's. That may not be true of everyone.


Never said I didn't learn them. In fact, I said the opposite.
I did learn them....just not from a book, video or internet. I learned them through playing and my understanding of motion....THAT'S my point. Thanks for clarifying that for me! Haha.
It may not be true for everyone but, it would be true for MORE drummers if they would just play and stop trying to correct faults they see in their playing by searching for techniques that may or may not work for them.

I might suggest that if these methods didn't work, they would be abandoned. In fact, they do work, and drummers of all levels that take lessons from, say a Morello, come away with tangible improvements. If people didn't get results, the school of thought would perish.

Never said they didn't work.
I said they were designed to keep us students.
I don't know about the rest of you but.... even at 30 years playing....I'm still a student.
I will always be a student. There is nothing condemning about my statement.
They are, what they are...a method to improve your skills at the kit....not the answers to your drumming "problems".

Fair enough. In my experience, I can only push as far as my foundation is broad. In guitar, bass, keyboard, and now drums, moving up to a new level of speed can reveal a physical/endurance limit, and/or a technique flaw. One is to be addressed with force, the other with analysis. Alternatively, as a couple of people have mentioned, there can be a tendency to "cheat" or relax, getting sloppy in one's form, especially during endurance training.

This is all personal goals. There are a lot of drummers who play fast and are very sloppy. I'm sure that they are working on "cleaning" their playing up but... it doesn't come from changing techniques....it comes from repetitive motion or repetitive playing.
That's how we get to our goals. By doing it over and over.

Let me finish with an example of the details that I find...too many drummers are worried about.
Here is a video from above of my playing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at-eGdtthww
For many drummers... having a different grip for each hand is "believed" to be a "problem" or could LEAD to a problem.
I use to think so....until I started listening to my playing.
Doesn't sound like there is anything wrong. Doesn't feel like anything is wrong.

So, my question is....do I spend another 15 years working on my hands so my grip can be the same or perfect?
Does every stroke HAVE TO be mechanically perfect?

Here is another video of my over all "technique".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZQ23edYt_o
There is some fast stuff in the middle and some jam stuff at the end.
Sorry Marco's head is in the way! Haha.

Cheers guys, it's been fun but...
think about how much practice time we lost.... just participating in this thread. Those valuable minute could have been what got you from 200 to 220.
In reality, this is what makes us better.....actually playing.

D.

[Drummerboy30]

Knowing the difference is key but, when speaking about techniques you can't play....how do you learn them?
Do they just come?
Do you wake up one day after thinking about it and it's there?
Of course not.
You're not going to start out playing the "technique" perfect. Nor, are you going to play the song perfect, at first.
Different terms, same result.

It's all in what you want to do.

If your goal is to play fast music...the only way to get there is to play fast music.
If you want to have fast chops...well, you just have to practice fast chops.
If you want to be very musical...you have to practice being musical.
If you want to have a deep pocket...you have to practice having a deep pocket.
If you want your drums to sound good... you have to practice that.
If you want to develop your listening skills...you have to place yourself in a situation that allows you to practice that.
See where I'm going here?
None of this stuff just happens, and you don't work on your listening skills by wanting to be "musical".

Know body starts out... being great. So yes, while you do see a lot of learning and "bad technique" on youtube...they had to start somewhere.
Haha.
And, if they have all the qualities of being a great drummer....they'll get there by doing all those things.

Cheers,
D.

Say for example...i want to play a song with 220bpm double bass. What if this is a physical impossibility at the time, and I cant even do a blast beat at that speed. How can i "Just do it" if I physically cant???
P.S. I am not applying this to me, im just asking a question.

[Drummerboy30]

Hi Derek, who is this guy? Does his band have a myspace?

Man, these two schools of thought are totally contradictory. I am confused right now. However, like others have said, might as well try both(!)

You couldn't have said it any better, thats just what I was thinking.

[Drummerboy30]

I think you're missing the point here.
Yes, it is important to work on "technique", but what these guys are trying to achieve.....(endurance runs playing 16ths at 230 for minutes at a time)
takes training.....Not a technique.

The search for a technique that will allow you to do... what others spent 10 years to develop is bogus. There is not such a technique.

It's all mindset really.
The ones who get there....
get there by doing it, Not wanting to do it.
(Which is 9 times out of 10 what drummers say)...."I'd love to able to play 16ths at 220......."

So DO it.

Like I said before.....I'm where I want to be with speed and endurance.
I didn't get there by wanting to be there.....I did it by DOING it.

I had no lessons, No DVD's when I was a kid, and nobody to learn from where I grew up.
I was all alone....
Proving that learning all these "methods" and "techniques" are not a necessity.
True, the search for the perfect technique may benefit some ( this goes back to the "mindset" issue...if you believe they help you.....then they DO) but, they are not "necessary".

Funny, having never spent any time on techniques or technique...
I get a lot of compliments about how "good" mine is and questions about which ones I studied. Haha.

In all honesty, I believe these teachers (Morello, Gladstone, Stone, etc...) designed those "methods" to keep students.... students.
If those methods were the answer to the drumming problems we all have.....those teachers wouldn't have repeat business....in turn meaning.... that they wouldn't have any income.
In those days....that's how those guys supported themselves and their families.
Writing those classic books and teaching those classic methods.

They are great methods for learning drummers and always good to study for drummers of all ages....but, they are not "necessary" to make a great drummer.

Wanting to do something as physical as extreme metal drumming...requires a different approach than learning a fast chop. Working on technique to do it... does not achieve optimal results in this particular case.
I know this from many years of watching my students.
If you want to do this type of playing....you have to push beyond what you are comfortable with.
Making 200 "comfortable" will not make 220 any easier.

Jump into it, conquer...WIN!

Cheers.
D.

I have a question for you Derek, you say to play say 260bpm you just have to "Do it." Well when you first started playing drums you definetly didnt just sit down and start playing 260bpm. Could you please just explain how you got to that speed. Thanks.

[Bernhard]

Cheers guys, it's been fun but...
think about how much practice time we lost.... just participating in this thread. Those valuable minute could have been what got you from 200 to 220.
In reality, this is what makes us better.....actually playing.

D.

Derek - you're so right!!!!!

(...this answer was sent from my Laptop in my practice-room - still at 195)

Bernhard

[Derek Roddy]

I have a question for you Derek, you say to play say 260bpm you just have to "Do it." Well when you first started playing drums you definetly didnt just sit down and start playing 260bpm. Could you please just explain how you got to that speed. Thanks.

This is a great question.
You see...when I started playing extreme metal....there was no such thing as 260.

Myself...a long with many other players from the genre....push the tempos (to what they are today)..... by playing fast music for the last 15 years.
It's no secret.

First it was.... 185, then 200, then 215, then 230, then 245, then 260....this took me 10+ years.

And, it will you too.............no matter what technique you learn today, next week or next year.

THAT's my point. No technique will help you get there any quicker than the next. You just have to sit down and work it out to what is comfortable to YOU.

D.

[Derek Roddy]

Say for example...i want to play a song with 220bpm double bass. What if this is a physical impossibility at the time, and I cant even do a blast beat at that speed. How can i "Just do it" if I physically cant???

You practice.
You sit down and try.
You play as much of the song as you can..... each time you play it. For the other half you can't play.....drop the note value in half....catch your breath and then doing it again.
Each time you do this....you will get a little farthar into the song.
Before you know it....you'll be playing the entire song. Make it solid, move on to another song.
That's HOW to do it.

Cheers,
D.

[Drummerboy30]

This is a great question.
You see...when I started playing extreme metal....there was no such thing as 260.

Myself...a long with many other players from the genre....push the tempos (to what they are today)..... by playing fast music for the last 15 years.
It's no secret.

First it was.... 185, then 200, then 215, then 230, then 245, then 260....this took me 10+ years.

And, it will you too.............no matter what technique you learn today, next week or next year.

THAT's my point. No technique will help you get there any quicker than the next. You just have to sit down and work it out to what is comfortable to YOU.

D.

So, rather than just doing 260, I need to "just do" a speed that very greatly challenges me until i get it then repeat...and then repeat??? And Also... If i may clarify, your outlook on technique.

The technique you have doesn't matter a bit, technique is simply the method in which you use to achieve something. There is no such thing as bad technique, any technique will end with the same results. And people who worry about having bad technique, they dont have bad technique unless it hurts, but other then that your technique is...yours. And again, people shouldnt worry about bad technique because...duh...your not going to do something that hurts are you.

So tell me Derek am I correct???

[Derek Roddy]

The technique you have doesn't matter a bit

The technique you USE...doesn't matter a bit.

technique is simply the method in which you use to achieve something.

Correct.

There is no such thing as bad technique, any technique will end with the same results

There is no such thing as A bad technique if it works for you.
Hell, you could put a drumstick in the crack of you butt and play cowbell with it. That's a technique.
Any technique that is "practiced" will yield the same results. The stick is still moving up and down and making a sound right?

And people who worry about having bad technique, they dont have bad technique unless it hurts, but other then that your technique is...yours.

I've noticed, people worry about having bad technique... when they can't play something they want too.
They blame their technique for not being able to play 240!!!!!!!!!! or some crazy chop.
A technique has nothing to do with 240, 300, 500....or a crazy chop...

Time spent does.
D.

[Drummerboy30]

The technique you USE...doesn't matter a bit.



Correct.



There is no such thing as A bad technique if it works for you.
Hell, you could put a drumstick in the crack of you butt and play cowbell with it. That's a technique.
Any technique that is "practiced" will yield the same results. The stick is still moving up and down and making a sound right?



I've noticed, people worry about having bad technique... when they can't play something they want too.
They blame their technique for not being able to play 240!!!!!!!!!! or some crazy chop.
A technique has nothing to do with 240, 300, 500....or a crazy chop...

Time spent does.
D.

Hey Derek, you never answered my first question, read my last post. Oh and if you have time could you please reply to the messages ive sent you??? Thanks a lot!

[Derek Roddy]

So, rather than just doing 260, I need to "just do" a speed that very greatly challenges me until i get it then repeat...and then repeat???

Correct.

Maybe let me try and put this another way.
Let's take JoJo for an example.
JoJo has one of the best looking "techniques" in drumming. He has put a lot of time into learning various "techniques".... that allow him to do the same thing in a variety of ways with more efficiency.

Even with all of his perfect technique and techniques......I'd be willing to bet $1000.00 that he couldn't make it through 2 minutes of a Nile or Hate Eternal song. And not because he told me he couldn't.
Why?
Because he doesn't play that kind of music, he doesn't practice it, he doesn't want to.

Did I say he couldn't if he "practiced"? No.

I do know he could though. Even though he has told me....he "can't play like that"
The point is, if he had to sit down and "do it" he couldn't............ despite having all this "technique".

D.

[SickRick]

A technique has nothing to do with 240, 300, 500....or a crazy chop...

Time spent does.
D.

That's so true. Of course there are quick ways of improving your level and slow waysof improving your level but even with the quick ways the rule applys: You want to become better - you HAVE to put in the necessary amount of time. There is no other way than that.

Just go to the drums and work hard on your playing everyday. Soooooo many questions on this forum (regarding all drumming in general) would never occur if more people would just sit behind their drums and try to figure stuff out for themselves. I have the slight feeling that maybe there is some "snugness" involved here....

I have a little story to share about this: maybe one or two years back a guy walks into my room at musicschool asking for lessons. He said he wanted to play DreamTheater and some Metal (Pantera, Sepultura and also some Extreme Metal). I checked him a bit (never played drums before) and found out that he had really good ears in terms of finding out what is played on records. Also, his hands looked pretty good and relaxed. So what I did was this: I gave him 4 lessons for free in which I showed him the basic principles of technique (Freestroke, Doubles, Paradiddles and some BD-tech) and of reading music so he could transcribe stuff for himself. Then I told him: "You don't need me. You are wasting your money here. If you want to play all that music all you have to do is play it. Listen to the records, get some friends together and jam to it. And work your ass off because it won't be easy and what it takes above all is balls."
He was quite surprised and sayed he needed more guidance. I made him the offer to come in any time to show me stuff hes working on or if he cannot figure something out alone. That happened two or three times after that and every single time he was on the right track and just needed to invest more time and energy.
One week ago I saw him play with his band on a festival I played myself and boy... wow... I was blown away. The guy was sounding sweet and had confidence that you only gain by working on stuff and going for stuff.

Hoping for the right answers on forums will not get you half as far as working on stuff will. Of course: You gain a lot of information and it might keep you away from traps, but it will absolutely not replace the time spent doing it.

[Derek Roddy]

Hell, you could put a drumstick in the crack of you butt and play cowbell with it. That's a technique.

This gives me a great idea.
I'm going to write a new method book and marketing campaign for this.

The Roddy "ButtCrack" cowbell technique.

1. Learn to play cowbell better and faster than all your peers.
2. Create a greater sense of balance at the kit because the striking point is directly in the center of the body.
3. Frees your hands for "overplaying" on the rest of your kit.
4. Musicians will think you are a magician when they hear cowbell but, don't see you playing one.
5. Make Will Ferrell jealous...as your cowbell playing is far superior and looks cooler.
6. It's a better technique than playing with your hands!
7. Resonation from the butt cheeks are much higher than that of your hand... creating a much more full cowbell sound.

D.

[Ben Tormey]

2. Create a greater sense of balance at the kit because the striking point is directly in the center of the body.
5. Make Will Ferrell jealous...as your cowbell playing is far superior and looks cooler.
7. Resonation from the butt cheeks are much higher than that of your hand... creating a much more full cowbell sound.


I laughed out loud at these.

[Derek Roddy]

Glad you liked them.

I'm all for having fun.
I guess my attitude about this stems from seeing so many drummers discouraged about their "technique"...when in fact, they are well on their way.... and are just expecting too much...to soon.
Getting better takes time, technique....takes time.
Be patient.....I was.

D.

[frank0072]

T
Hoping for the right answers on forums will not get you half as far as working on stuff will. Of course: You gain a lot of information and it might keep you away from traps, but it will absolutely not replace the time spent doing it.

AMEN to that :), really great thread this is. Inspires me to get behind my kit and improvise.

[Big_Philly]

I wouldn't say no to practising certain techniques. I encourage my students to try several ways of playing double strokes, using open-close, moeller strokes with one rebound, doing both strokes with your fingers etc. But then I tell them to find a way to merge it all and make it something that feels particularly comfortable to them. When I analyse my double stroke roll I come to the conclusion that it's really a mix of different techniques merged into a single motion that gets me to the high platinum / low diamond area of the Vic Firth rudiment section without ever really practising to acquire high double stroke roll speeds. For the record: I do not consider myself a double stroke expert and realise that the low diamond range of the vic firth website is just the beginning. My point is this:

Practising different techniques is one thing (a good one), but if you really want to get somewhere eventually you will just need to do whatever you're comfortable with. Forget about moeller, forget about heel-toe, forget about ankle or finger motion and find your own way.
I agree with Derek on jumping in and playing the music you want, but also agree with the ones that loyally keep recommending to play low tempo's to get your timing correct. I said that before in an earlier post... why only choose one way when you can do both and probably learn even faster?

At the moment I have my double pedal under my desk. I study at my desk and when it's just qualitative studies I have music in the background and play double bass to whatever comes along, be it slow or fast. When I gotta do math (and trust me: classical electromagnetism is not an easy subject from a mathematical point of view!) I can't do it.

[ermghoti]

This is a great question.
You see...when I started playing extreme metal....there was no such thing as 260.

Myself...a long with many other players from the genre....push the tempos (to what they are today)..... by playing fast music for the last 15 years.
It's no secret.

First it was.... 185, then 200, then 215, then 230, then 245, then 260....this took me 10+ years.

And, it will you too.............no matter what technique you learn today, next week or next year.

THAT's my point. No technique will help you get there any quicker than the next. You just have to sit down and work it out to what is comfortable to YOU.

D.

This is, in fact, exactly what I was trying to say. I wish I had posted in example form as above, it would have saved a lot of typing for both of us!

[Drummerboy30]

Glad you liked them.

I'm all for having fun.
I guess my attitude about this stems from seeing so many drummers discouraged about their "technique"...when in fact, they are well on their way.... and are just expecting too much...to soon.
Getting better takes time, technique....takes time.
Be patient.....I was.

D.

Derek, yesterday I sat down after taking your philosophy into consideration, and rather than doing my normal routine of play around 150bpm for a long stretch, i went right to 170bpm and just blistered it. Surprisingly I was able to do it after maybe an hour of trying. But anyways, I wasnt seeing great results, I was just thinking about asking you about this, and if im doing it right, but i guess this post has answered my question, so thanks.
Dustin.

[Derek Roddy]

i went right to 170bpm and just blistered it. Surprisingly I was able to do it after maybe an hour of trying.

That's the thing....it does take a few days to get the hang of the feel. 170 feels different than 150 huh?
But, do you see what the benefit of going right to that tempo now?
It might be a bit sloppy or whatever but, that won't last long. Just keep at that tempo for a few days. Play it as long as you physical can....give yourself a 10 minute break and start over.
If you can do this about 3 or 4 times a day....you get there in no time.

Don't forget to keep playing the 150 too.
Remember, you get good at what you practice.
I know so many Death and Black metal drummers that can play 220 and above...... but can't play 150-190.
That's because they don't play those tempos much.

Cheers
D.

[Drummerboy30]

That's the thing....it does take a few days to get the hang of the feel. 170 feels different than 150 huh?
But, do you see what the benefit of going right to that tempo now?
It might be a bit sloppy or whatever but, that won't last long. Just keep at that tempo for a few days. Play it as long as you physical can....give yourself a 10 minute break and start over.
If you can do this about 3 or 4 times a day....you get there in no time.

Don't forget to keep playing the 150 too.
Remember, you get good at what you practice.
I know so many Death and Black metal drummers that can play 220 and above...... but can't play 150-190.
That's because they don't play those tempos much.

Cheers
D.

Yeah, for me right now, the fastest I can go is about 150bpm and hold it out for a long period, I could barely do the 170bpm. But let me ask, once I can do say, 160 for a long time, will that make 170 come much easier and not be as hard. What im asking is maybe can I bend your philosophy a little and take it 10bpm at a time??? Once I perfect 150bpm move to 160-170-180 etc.???