Speed Categories

[rhydianjlewis]

There might be a thread with something similar to this already, but i'll ask anyway...

Could someone please break up speeds of: Single stroke rolls, Double stroke rolls and Paradiddles into categories eg: poor, below average, average etc..
From 16th notes at 120 to 200+ bpm maybe, or whatever is appropriate...

Posts about musicality and the non-importance of speed are not appreciated :) I just want to compare my rudiment speeds to what is considered the average, purely out of curiosity.

thanks in advance.

[Ian Ballard]

Do you think somebody is really going to take the time to outline such a list for you?

Plus, you are delving into opinion-realm. World-record speed is over 1200 strokes a minute. If you can do 1200, you're the man! That's about 20 strokes a second. On a metronome, if you are playing 16ths @ 120 bpm, that's about 8/second. If you double that rate, you've got 16 strokes/second... etc.

[rhydianjlewis]

Do you think somebody is really going to take the time to outline such a list for you?
Yes.


So far i have: Upper boundary for singles - 240BPM

[mr_hayward_99]

in pat patrilos book he mentions good speeds to be able to reach for the differeant ruidments.

but what is speed if you dont have correct technique = injury

i would say 120 flam rudiments and over 160 doubles combinations i.e. paradidles

is ok/good not breaking records but abouve average.

you need to have good double strokes to go faster than 160 cleanly!

[Ben Tormey]

Vic Firth has an excellent page devoted to this, which I found by chance:

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html

There are some ratings for each tempo range that I think are fairly realistic. Clean doubles at 160bpm is certainly above average.

[Ian Ballard]

In theory, whatever speed you maximum single-strokes are, can be doubled with double-strokes.

The problem we run into is, when we reach the upper-limits of our *controllable* single-strokes, our ability to "pull" the doubled stroke becomes quite difficult. But it would be a good challenge to try to double your single speed.

Part of it is physical... but mostly it's mental. If you BELIEVE you can do it, yet don't THINK about whatever artificial limits you've set for yourself, you'll do it.

[Ben Tormey]

I think it's one of those instances of having to ignore the feedback from your senses, and let your body perform the motion automatically. It's the same principle as gymnasts who learn routines till they can do them in their sleep practically.

[SickRick]

In theory, whatever speed you maximum single-strokes are, can be doubled with double-strokes.

I really really dont think so.

@threadstarter:

I think, as far as singles, doubles and paradiddles are concerned, you should be able to play them at about the same tempo. One of the best exercises I've ever learned is a very simple one: Alternate between singles, doubles and paras: Play each of those for one bar 32nd notes or two bars 16th notes and really try to get a consistent sound.

I can do that cleanly on a good day at around 200bpm which is not extremely fast in WFD terms speaking, but the alternation of these rudiments really lead to way more flexibility in your overall playing - which again is very aplicable to musical drumming.

To fully answer your question: Like someone else has mentioned before, at vicfirth.com you can download a list of 40 rudiments, all with a speed rating, ranging from bronze, silver, gold to diamond. Also - there is a small little etude for each of the rudiments which puts it in a nice musical backround and makes it way more fun to practise. Check it out!

If you can play everythng at gold or diamond level, your fine and set for any musical situation (not WFD though - these guys are just insane).

[Ian Ballard]

I really really dont think so.

You must have missed the "in theory" part.

I, unfortunately, acknowledge the physical limits of average humans and the technique problems posed by my experience and programming. But you're missing the big picture. We "acknowledge" limits because we rationalize things in a very limited way, and are programmed by others and by experience.

So, if you "don't think so"... maybe "thinking so" or more importantly, "believing so" will create new techniques that allow the "seeming impossibility" of something. That's the point of pushing yourself, is it not? It's not to realize limits, but to defy and exceed them.

[SickRick]

So, if you "don't think so"... maybe "thinking so" or more importantly, "believing so" will create new techniques that allow the "seeming impossibility" of something. That's the point of pushing yourself, is it not? It's not to realize limits, but to defy and exceed them.

Well, I doubt that believing in something will by itself create new techniques ;)

I think that the only things that will get you further are a combination of practise, focus and a positive mindset about things. But if experience tells you: "I cannot double my singles at 200bpm no matter how hard I try" than thats that, isn't it?

Trying to push yourself over your limits is one thing. Running against Windmills like Don Quichote is another.

But really - I don't want to get into a debate here since quite obviously I'm not the right person for that kind of stuff... Also its not quite the threadtopic. Plus: I think we agree on most of whats beeing said, we're just putting it into different terms.

[Tutin]

I use the Vic firth levels as a guide and it's pretty good, I agree with them. You really have to make sure you're controlled though, don't kid yourself on that it's smooth. I went through a period of doing that and my playing really suffered.

[rhydianjlewis]

In theory, whatever speed you maximum single-strokes are, can be doubled with double-strokes.

If you consider double strokes as just being a double bounce of a single downstroke, the theory may be true.
But then again, if you consider double strokes as full individual strokes twice on each hand, theoretically doubles would only be half the speed of singles, yes?


I think, as far as singles, doubles and paradiddles are concerned, you should be able to play them at about the same tempo. One of the best exercises I've ever learned is a very simple one: Alternate between singles, doubles and paras: Play each of those for one bar 32nd notes or two bars 16th notes and really try to get a consistent sound.

I can do that cleanly on a good day at around 200bpm which is not extremely fast in WFD terms speaking, but the alternation of these rudiments really lead to way more flexibility in your overall playing - which again is very aplicable to musical drumming.

Helpful post from SlickRick, thanks.
200bpm doubles and paradiddles though, thats impressive i must say.


Anyway, i'm pretty sure i'm quite a way below average, but i havent noticed it affecting my playing too much. Just the other day i was getting left behind trying to play some Mars Volta stuff.

And it's what i expected anyway, i'v been playing almost five years and almost never done any structured practice with rudiments (For shame!), just playing along to music etc...
I might put some real work in over the summer to see if i can make some improvements though...

i'm checking out vicfirth's site now.. it seems good.

[SickRick]

Helpful post from SlickRick, thanks.
200bpm doubles and paradiddles though, thats impressive i must say.

I might put some real work in over the summer to see if i can make some improvements though...


Your welcome for that help. As I said: On a good day ;) Plus: I've been working on that exercise for quite some time since I started playing drums. If I really count the exercises I've been really working on, these are only very few. The rest came and comes with playing and just doing it - I think thats the most natural way to go. At least for me it is.

Also: I always loved to work on stuff in etude-form. Just playing something over and over and over and over and ovoer and over and over gets me bored quickly (and I do have more self discipline concerning practise than most people I know).

If you want to work during summer on rudiments my advice would be: Find some few exercises that you like, that are fun to work on and that you feel you need improvement in. Other than that just play - mix things up a little, apply it to the drumset in fills and grooves. Wilcoxon's "All American Drummer" is a great thing to work on in terms of mixing stuff up. Really worked for thousands of drummers in the past.

And one more: One of my practise "secrets" is to always have a pair of sticks and a pad with me every time I go outside (lake, beach... wherever I am). Its a great thing to work on some stuff on the pad and the next moment chill in the sun, go for a swim... It puts the practise in a happy-environment and subconciously you somehow feel good about practising.

[FourOnSix]

You must have missed the "in theory" part.

I, unfortunately, acknowledge the physical limits of average humans and the technique problems posed by my experience and programming. But you're missing the big picture. We "acknowledge" limits because we rationalize things in a very limited way, and are programmed by others and by experience.

So, if you "don't think so"... maybe "thinking so" or more importantly, "believing so" will create new techniques that allow the "seeming impossibility" of something. That's the point of pushing yourself, is it not? It's not to realize limits, but to defy and exceed them.


if i believe that gravity does not exist and i step off of the edge of a cliff, will I fall to the ground? By your logic I won't, but in reality we all know that I will. That being said, the envelope can always be pushed further but it's one of those things where your only going half the distance that you went last time to infinity(i.e. 1 divided by 2 divided by 2 divided by 2 two infinity will never get you to zero. ), you can only get so much faster in a certain amount of time once you reach a certain level.

[Big_Philly]

That Vic Firth site is pretty cool. I am generally in the low-to-mid platinum, low diamond even on double strokes... so that makes me feel better about my playing :)

[schist]

'Poor'? 'Average'?!

I think the Vic Firth 'medal' system is the one you want, free of hierarchical titles like the ones you suggested.

Think about it - Does a beginner student really want to be told that their double-stroke speed is 'poor'?

[rhydianjlewis]

'Poor'? 'Average'?!

I think the Vic Firth 'medal' system is the one you want, free of hierarchical titles like the ones you suggested.

Think about it - Does a beginner student really want to be told that their double-stroke speed is 'poor'?

I guess not, but for me i don't see any reason for putting it into nice terms to keep me happy :)

[schist]

I guess not, but for me i don't see any reason for putting it into nice terms to keep me happy :)

Very well, then ...

300+ BPM for every rudiment = Good
< 300BPM = Poor

:P

[SickRick]

Very well, then ...

300+ BPM for every rudiment = Good
< 300BPM = Poor

:P


Great, we're all Good then. We just play the rudiments using quarter notes at that tempo. I'm sure everybody can do it.

I'll never understand the obsession Metal Drummers seem to have with the number 300. Really strange.

BTW - in Jazz its quite common to play way above 300bpm, John Riley mentions tempos up to 400bpm that he played back in New York Jazz clubs.

[smoney22]

Great, we're all Good then. We just play the rudiments using quarter notes at that tempo. I'm sure everybody can do it.

I'll never understand the obsession Metal Drummers seem to have with the number 300. Really strange.

BTW - in Jazz its quite common to play way above 300bpm, John Riley mentions tempos up to 400bpm that he played back in New York Jazz clubs.
400bpm in jazz is not nearly as awesome as 300 in metal!!