Muscle Memory?

[Tutin]

Hey everyone,

I've studied various techniques over my ten years of drumming, Moeller, Gladstone etc. and I've had pretty good results. Last year I really improved my wrists by using muscle memory training and they play like it's a natural reflex. Obviously though, your wrists can only go so fast since they are quite a big muscle group and I wanted to start playing pretty intense death metal. So, since September I've been practising really really slow finger technique, like playing 40bpm 16ths for aaaages. I've been using the drumometer to track my progress, and I've been doing some endurance training as well. However, my scores in September were about 790-835, and I'm not saying I should be Mangini by now but I literally have made no improvement. I have good control, it's fine and I get constant stick height etc. but my runs have not improved at all, and it's really depressing me a bit. I know muscle memory works, you see WFD guys like Tom blaze past the 1000 mark. Clearly they've put a lot of time and discipline into it, I'm just a bit worried as to why I'm not making any significant progress?

Any help would be appreciated. I.e. Anything that helps you concentrate? Doing it in conjunction with something else?

Thanks guys,

T

[mhanon13]

I guess you gotta apply FINGER TECHNIQUE, but gotta practice everyday, or push pull technique if you wanna go really fast, at a very fast tempo... only fingers or push-pull works...., besides that, practice every single day, but first warm-up and dont jump on drums like throwing yourself in boiling water, breathe deep, stay relax, and do long warm-ups and then start practicing but staying relaxed and w/o getting frustrated, the advanced techniques take years to master, so... good luck!

[Tutin]

I guess you gotta apply FINGER TECHNIQUE, but gotta practice everyday, or push pull technique if you wanna go really fast, at a very fast tempo... only fingers or push-pull works...., besides that, practice every single day, but first warm-up and dont jump on drums like throwing yourself in boiling water, breathe deep, stay relax, and do long warm-ups and then start practicing but staying relaxed and w/o getting frustrated, the advanced techniques take years to master, so... good luck!

Thanks for the advice man. I know all of this stuff, like how to practice properly and I apply it all. I know to warm up and stay relaxed etc. I'm just worried about the fact that I haven't improved a bit.

[blade123]

How about working on something musical?

[Class A Drummer]

I dont think working slow will help much when it comes to trying to increase speed. My speed has increased dramatically with straight up practice. When i mean practice, i mean doing singles, alot. Going slow might help with technique, but i think just going almost as fast as can for periods of time can help.

[mhanon13]

well, the faster you get... the longer it takes to increase your speed,

eventually you will get at a point, where you will have to notice that your speed has increased but in a long time, a year or so...

the guys that are so so so fast today, have been drumming for more than 15 years... there is no way you can be as fast as JoJo Mayer with only 10 years of drumming...

I recommend you to get the JoJo Mayer DVD: Secret Weapons for the Modern Drummer and start practicing... also get Stick Control of GLS and work on it...

[toddy]

Tutin i think you've gone about it the right way.. I know I take a similar approach when i want to get the technique or pattern right in the first place.

When i used to practice death metal alot and wanted to work on my speed, | used to do a training schedule consisting of straight 16th blast beats.

1 minute @ 120 bpm
2 minutes @ 130 bpm
3 minutes @ 140 bpm
1 minute @ 150 bpm
2 minutes @ 160 bpm
3 minutes @ 170bpm

After I'd gotten used to that schedule for a while I then incorporated a fill ever 4th bar.
If i felt pain i stopped completely, if I messed up I stopped that current set and started allover again.

Not sure it's the best way, but my blast beats and singles did get better.
It also taught me a little bit of discipline in trying to perfect one aspect of my playing.

I am rarely ever required to play death metal anymore, but I've found that the time I spent doing this ended up helping my singles and doubles considerably, especially when i started adding the fill into the equation.

[schist]

First of all, I don't think it's absolutely essential that you use French grip to play fast death metal (assuming this is the "finger technique" you refer to). I've seen guys play in excess of 250+ using matched German grip (mainly wrist), and they've been doing it this way week after week for years. Besides, did Mangini not crack 1200 singles using only his wrists?

That said, if you think it'll work for you, then go right ahead.

If it's increasing speed you're after, why not try the ol' Stone Killer exercise?

Set your metronome to 100BPM, then do the RRRR LLLL for 1 minute, RRRRRRRR LLLLLLLL for 2 minutes etc. (I assume you know how the exercise works) as 16ths.

The week after, do the same thing at 102BPM, then the week after that at 104BPM, and so on until you get to however fast you want to go.

I usually do 3 10-minute rounds of this a day, one after another, with a short 15 - 30 second rest in between, using heavy Vic Firth Hammerhead sticks. Be sure to practice in front of a mirror as well, focusing on form and technique.

[Boomka]

Change your routine. Our bodies naturally tend toward stasis. After a time, our muscles normalise even the most rigorous routines. Switch it up. Work them in a different way to force them to adapt to new signals and movements.

[Tutin]

How about working on something musical?

Aside from learning the techniques so I can adapt it to a musical situation and that I do work on music, I write music for 4 bands (prog metal, tech metal, prog rock and DNB), I'm currently in the process of producing a dance album so I think I do a fair share of music.

well, the faster you get... the longer it takes to increase your speed,

eventually you will get at a point, where you will have to notice that your speed has increased but in a long time, a year or so...

the guys that are so so so fast today, have been drumming for more than 15 years... there is no way you can be as fast as JoJo Mayer with only 10 years of drumming...

I recommend you to get the JoJo Mayer DVD: Secret Weapons for the Modern Drummer and start practicing... also get Stick Control of GLS and work on it...

I've watched "Secret Weapons" countless times and I do study Stick control. I follow both word for word and take as much from them as I can. Also, who said I assumed I'd be as fast as Jojo? I'm just wondering about how I'm progressing. I'm sorry if I sound a bit rude, but please don't put words in my mouth.

First of all, I don't think it's absolutely essential that you use French grip to play fast death metal (assuming this is the "finger technique" you refer to). I've seen guys play in excess of 250+ using matched German grip (mainly wrist), and they've been doing it this way week after week for years. Besides, did Mangini not crack 1200 singles using only his wrists?

That said, if you think it'll work for you, then go right ahead.

If it's increasing speed you're after, why not try the ol' Stone Killer exercise?

Set your metronome to 100BPM, then do the RRRR LLLL for 1 minute, RRRRRRRR LLLLLLLL for 2 minutes etc. (I assume you know how the exercise works) as 16ths.

The week after, do the same thing at 102BPM, then the week after that at 104BPM, and so on until you get to however fast you want to go.

I usually do 3 10-minute rounds of this a day, one after another, with a short 15 - 30 second rest in between, using heavy Vic Firth Hammerhead sticks. Be sure to practice in front of a mirror as well, focusing on form and technique.

Thanks Schist, you give good advice. I do use my wrists and can go about 230bpm with them, but it tires me out after a while! I know Mangini can use his wrists at insane speeds but he's a tech freak, he plays at like 40bpm for 3 hours at a time occasionally. I don't really have that time haha!

I do that exercise, but probably not as often as I'd like. I'll give it a go!

Cheers

T

[mhanon13]

I've watched "Secret Weapons" countless times and I do study Stick control. I follow both word for word and take as much from them as I can. Also, who said I assumed I'd be as fast as Jojo? I'm just wondering about how I'm progressing. I'm sorry if I sound a bit rude, but please don't put words in my mouth.



T[/QUOTE]

I never said you said you wanted to be as fast as JoJo, I was just trying to help you, so please, do not be jerk! I mean you are fast enough right now, and if you wanna get even faster then keep practicing and what I was said was true, please, read well and do not judge people that fast... you are fast enough, above average, if you wanna get faster, then you might wanna be that fast (JoJo was only an example), you were asking for advice, I was just trying to be kind and nice to you, but you are arrogant Tutin, take it easy dog.

[schist]

Thanks Schist, you give good advice. I do use my wrists and can go about 230bpm with them, but it tires me out after a while! I know Mangini can use his wrists at insane speeds but he's a tech freak, he plays at like 40bpm for 3 hours at a time occasionally. I don't really have that time haha!


I don't mean Gladstone/freestroke rebound technique when I say "wrist" - I mean, closed grip strokes, relying on wrist only, not rebound.

At least, not referring to Mangini's record anyway.

[Samf]

As a hobby drummer and professional combat firearms instructor I love this post on muscle memory. Let me put it in firearms terms and see if it helps those in the quest for speed.

You can break down the muscle groups into two types of motor movements 1. Gross- involving large muscle or groups of muscles ( whip of the whole arm, wrist and whole hand involves large muscle groups. and 2. Fine motor movements (fingers) or small muscle groups.

During stress or tension large or gross motor movements are eaiser to perform. Using the thumb to release the slide on a semi-auto pistol is harder under stress than using the whole hand to grab the top, pull back and release. It takes between 3000-5000 reps to develop muscle memory.

Using the whole hand or wrist or all of your fingers will be eaiser to develop than the fine motor movement of individual fingers. Keep in mind 3000-5000 reps will be required at each tempo to develop muscle memory at that given speed and the skill will become perishable if not practiced on a regular basis. Speed will decline if not practiced but will come back quicker due to muscle memory.

All the posts asking about developing speed overnight or on the fast trac can be answered simply- It is not possible, period.

The suggestion by pro drummers is right on the mark. You practice slow and start paying attention to the movement and complete the reps. In the begining you will notice quick improvement. As you reach the upper limits of your ability don't give up, but understand what is happening. As you begin to tense up it is harder to use fine motor movements. Taking the click up 1 or 2 bpm at a time and completing another 3000-5000 reps is the way to get where you want to be.

5000 reps at 1/4 note 160 bpm played at 16ths will take a little over 7 min. to complete. Just because you complete it does not mean you have arrived it only means the muscles can complete it at that level. It may take 10 or 20 reps of this just to get it to sound even and another 10-20 reps to get it smooth and a whole bunch more to always be consistant. When you can pick up your sticks, set the click to a given speed, and play it even, smooth, and consistant EVERY time you have achieved Muscle Memory for that given speed.

Sorry for the long post guys and my hope is that those working on these skills like me will look at the process a little differant. When you know going in that you will reach a point where 1 or 2 BPM improvement is normal you will not become frustrated, and understand that you may be at that level for a while but you are still improving by becoming smoother and consistant just like my students who are law enforcement officer learning to become more proficient in combat shooting.

A guy that can muscle his way through 1 min at 200 bpm 1 out of 10 times comapred to the guy who can smoothly and efficiently hit 1 min at 170 bpm EVERY TIME will more times that not be the better player because he is always consistant at what he does...

Thanks for taking the time to put up me me and my war and peace post :)

[Tutin]

I never said you said you wanted to be as fast as JoJo, I was just trying to help you, so please, do not be jerk! I mean you are fast enough right now, and if you wanna get even faster then keep practicing and what I was said was true, please, read well and do not judge people that fast... you are fast enough, above average, if you wanna get faster, then you might wanna be that fast (JoJo was only an example), you were asking for advice, I was just trying to be kind and nice to you, but you are arrogant Tutin, take it easy dog.

Sorry man, I misread your post. It can be easy to misinterpret things in print so I hope you understand. I'm not an arrogant person at all, in fact I have pretty low confidence. Thanks for your advice man, I'm sorry. I hope there's no friction between us.

Tutin

[Tutin]

As a hobby drummer and professional combat firearms instructor I love this post on muscle memory. Let me put it in firearms terms and see if it helps those in the quest for speed.

You can break down the muscle groups into two types of motor movements 1. Gross- involving large muscle or groups of muscles ( whip of the whole arm, wrist and whole hand involves large muscle groups. and 2. Fine motor movements (fingers) or small muscle groups.

During stress or tension large or gross motor movements are eaiser to perform. Using the thumb to release the slide on a semi-auto pistol is harder under stress than using the whole hand to grab the top, pull back and release. It takes between 3000-5000 reps to develop muscle memory.

Using the whole hand or wrist or all of your fingers will be eaiser to develop than the fine motor movement of individual fingers. Keep in mind 3000-5000 reps will be required at each tempo to develop muscle memory at that given speed and the skill will become perishable if not practiced on a regular basis. Speed will decline if not practiced but will come back quicker due to muscle memory.

All the posts asking about developing speed overnight or on the fast trac can be answered simply- It is not possible, period.

The suggestion by pro drummers is right on the mark. You practice slow and start paying attention to the movement and complete the reps. In the begining you will notice quick improvement. As you reach the upper limits of your ability don't give up, but understand what is happening. As you begin to tense up it is harder to use fine motor movements. Taking the click up 1 or 2 bpm at a time and completing another 3000-5000 reps is the way to get where you want to be.

5000 reps at 1/4 note 160 bpm played at 16ths will take a little over 7 min. to complete. Just because you complete it does not mean you have arrived it only means the muscles can complete it at that level. It may take 10 or 20 reps of this just to get it to sound even and another 10-20 reps to get it smooth and a whole bunch more to always be consistant. When you can pick up your sticks, set the click to a given speed, and play it even, smooth, and consistant EVERY time you have achieved Muscle Memory for that given speed.

Sorry for the long post guys and my hope is that those working on these skills like me will look at the process a little differant. When you know going in that you will reach a point where 1 or 2 BPM improvement is normal you will not become frustrated, and understand that you may be at that level for a while but you are still improving by becoming smoother and consistant just like my students who are law enforcement officer learning to become more proficient in combat shooting.

A guy that can muscle his way through 1 min at 200 bpm 1 out of 10 times comapred to the guy who can smoothly and efficiently hit 1 min at 170 bpm EVERY TIME will more times that not be the better player because he is always consistant at what he does...

Thanks for taking the time to put up me me and my war and peace post :)

Great post man, thanks a lot!

[mhanon13]

yeah, everything is alright Tutin, everything is cool, do not worry if you have not progressed, just be patient and you will notice some progress eventually.. and great post Samf, I learnt a lot from it, right at this moment I am not focused on speed on my hands, but focused on speed combining feet and hands, anyway, I think I will apply everything in this thread soon!

good luck fellas!

[Alex Luce]

The phrase "Muscle Memory" is thrown around a lot on the technique threads. I know I can't stop drummers from using it, but I am hoping this post will make you think twice before using it again. As far as I can tell, muscle memory isn't really an accurate phrase when it comes to acquiring drumming facility/technique, and this is why:

Muscles are fibrous cells and they can't actually "remember" anything--all memory takes place in the brain. The term muscle memory refers to the cells' ability to easily return to a previous state--or to "remember" it. For example, in weightlifting, after a layoff, athletes are able to get back into shape much easier the second time around--because the muscles seem to "remember" their previous state and get back to it quicker. However, muscle memory is just an observation, and as far as I know, there is nothing in scientific literature yet to prove its existence...or to explain the physiology of how it actually occurs.

What all this means for drummers is this: You can't practice muscle memory, or "program" your muscles. Your muscles can't remember anything, unless they have been there already.

The thing to keep in mind is drumming is a motion-based, not a strength-based instrument. We create power in drumming by using motion, not muscular strength. If you don't believe me, how many incredible skinny drummers have you seen, that look like they have no muscles at all? Or what about child prodigies that are able to beat the crap out of the drums?

What we try to memorize, internalize, and create the "feeling" for when practicing the drums is not muscle movement, but motion. Once we have nailed the motion, then we can work on speed, in order to develop the muscles that are necessary to play the motion fast.

So what is needed for fast drumming is not strength, but speed and endurance. However, the muscles that develop to create speed and endurance in drumming can't even be observed by the naked eye (again, the skinny drummer example).

If we want to learn how to play fast, we quite simply, have to practice playing fast. However, we have to practice using correct motion that allows the muscles to develop properly, and not allow tension to creep into our technique.

So muscle memory is of no help to drummers, unless you are a technique monster who has just come off a two-month vacation. Then you can start practicing, and with the aid of muscle memory, get back to where you were again pretty quickly!

Regards,

Alex

[mhanon13]

To be honest mate, I never heard of "muscle memory" before...
certainly, the term of muscle memory has no sense, since muscles don't have any kind of memory, just our brain!

maybe what he meant was to memorize the motion... the thing is that we first gotta memorize the motion... in this case single strokes... maybe we are very fast but when we combine our both hands together it's a mess... then you gotta start doing single strokes at a very slow tempo so that your brain memorizes when to hit the drum after your other hand... you know.. to memorize the tempo between each hand, gradually you increase tempo, and then you will be doing that super fast, cause your brain already got when to strike the drum..

I think what he meant like you said was motion memory... like when you first learn paradiddle... and you wanna do it fast,.. in my case I ended up doing a RRLRRLRRLRRL, of course cause my right hand was way faster... but then I had to start slow RLRRLRLL... pretty slow, so that my brain could memorize that motion, then I was speeding up gradually, now I do not have any problem with my left hand, and can do it pretty fast!

but you gotta do repetitions pretty slow so that your brain gets it... that's what he meant, in fact is motion memory, but people call it "muscle memory" in a popular way, since our muscles do the physical work!

hope that is clear!

[Samf]

Alex,

You are correct that muscles don't learn or retain. The best way for me to explain the process is during practice and development you are using the conscious mind which requires you to think about the actions (drumming or shooting, strokes or drawing a weapon). Your conscious mind must focus on the movements, breaking them down (3 steps or less is the optimum) to a point where it becomes second nature or in tech terms the un-conscious mind takes over.

As you put the thought and reps into place you will eventually reach the point where thought is no longer required and the un-conscious mind takes over and it is reflex if that makes sense.

An example in firearms would be a teaching officers to reload a sub-machine gun. I could describe every detail of the process but then it needs to be broken down into small parts to train the mind. Here is how it is done. Ex. Grab the charging handle with your rleft hand and pull it Back to the rear. Lock the handle into the indent. With your left hand grab the magazine and press the release button and pull the magazine OFF. Grab a new magazine and put it IN the magizine well. Use your left hand to slap the charging bar FORWARD

Lots of info that needs to be explained to the shooter but then you must break it down to allow him to use the conscious mind along with reps to condition the un-conscious mind so it becomes reflex. Teling the officer to say the following while performing the reload action helps train him. Like counting out loud when learning to play the drums I have them say the steps out loud but break it down so it is short and easy to follow while developing speed. BACK, OFF, ON FORWARD is whats said while they perform the reload. In time they no longer need to use it because their actions are faster than they can say it and that is when you know they are well on their way. Same in drumming there is a point where you can play faster than you can count 16th's.

Alex please don't take this the wrong way or think I am being sarcastic but I would love to have you describe a stroke in detail (Moller, Gladstone, Free or jazz ride pattern(anything)) and then think of the key words I could use to break it down to a few steps to focus on. This is a great discussion and I am sorry I can only use firearms as my examples but I am not qualified to use drumming. I truly value your experience and you have the credability to do it for drums and I don't.

If you truly understand the concept of using the conscious mind to develop the unconscious mind to develop muscle memory (reflex) as a student it becomes easer to practice because you understand what is happening. You know it will not come overnight and even when you feel stuck at a certain speed you will look for the improvements you are make while there (smoother, cleaner, consistant, control and endurance) which will help in reducing the frustration and help push you through.

I agree with you 100% that muscle memory has nothing to do with strenght.

Again sorry for the long post guys but I just could not break it down any shorter than that and again thank you for your understanding.

[Tutin]

Thanks guys, this is great. And yeah Alex, if you could describe gladstone etc. like Samf asked that'd be great.

Cheers.

[Samf]

Guys, this has been a great post and discussion. The typical speed posts only talk about how each drummer goes about it. I am so glad this thread has remained civil. Like I said I am not qualified to teach you guys how to play but only felt I could contribute using teaching methods in my area of expertise that apply to learning a complex skill.

So far this thread has gone into more explaining why practice is done a certain way so that you understand the process of how to reach your goals. Here are a few thoughts that may give you that Ahhhh Haaaa moment where it sinks in and you grasp the concept of conscious, unconscious mind and muscle memory.

Conscious - requires mental consentration and focus on the skill at hand.

1. Count while you play
2. Say the rudiment names out loud when you play (Paradiddle-Para para diddle)
3. First time you drove a car. Remember that one! Holy S$$T all those things to remember. Remember the concentration it took, stress and all the coordination problems. Lets mot even go into stick shift vs. automatic transmission :)

Unconcious Mind (reflex)

1. No need to count out loud
2. Rudiments are locked in and you can't say it fast enough to keep up with your hands.
3. Now when you drove last bet you can't tell me how many time you used your signal or mirrors, or what colors all the lights were at intersections or how many moves it took to park or back up.

Conscious mind (3000-5000 reps) to develop the Unconscious mind to make the skill Reflexsive = Muscle Memory.

If any of you are interested PM me and I can get some of my principals of learning instructors material together in Word and e-mail em to you if you wish. Just give me a couple of weeks to put it together my daughter will be home recovering from surgery this week.

[schist]

Hmm ... This brings up the question: When using the 90-min 40BPM method of practice, is it absolutely essential you count out loud if you wish to lock the motion in?

[rhydianjlewis]

It's called muscle memory not because your muscles actually remember the movement, but your mind remembers how to control your muscles through that movement, and so it seems that it's your muscles that have the 'memory'. Not an accurate term though, i guess, but it is true. Try brushing your teeth with your left hand next time, then you'll see. (works for right handed people only lol)

Samf seems to have hit the nail on the head with this one, i agree with what he's said.

I also agree that do develop speed you need to push youself to your limits occasionally, and while you may be progressing slowly with really slow singles, it would be more effective to try pushing the tempo up every week to develop speed rather than technique (which i imagine is pretty good by now anyway)

[Alex Luce]

Hey everyone,

I've studied various techniques over my ten years of drumming, Moeller, Gladstone etc. and I've had pretty good results. Last year I really improved my wrists by using muscle memory training and they play like it's a natural reflex. Obviously though, your wrists can only go so fast since they are quite a big muscle group and I wanted to start playing pretty intense death metal. So, since September I've been practising really really slow finger technique, like playing 40bpm 16ths for aaaages. I've been using the drumometer to track my progress, and I've been doing some endurance training as well. However, my scores in September were about 790-835, and I'm not saying I should be Mangini by now but I literally have made no improvement. I have good control, it's fine and I get constant stick height etc. but my runs have not improved at all, and it's really depressing me a bit. I know muscle memory works, you see WFD guys like Tom blaze past the 1000 mark. Clearly they've put a lot of time and discipline into it, I'm just a bit worried as to why I'm not making any significant progress?

Any help would be appreciated. I.e. Anything that helps you concentrate? Doing it in conjunction with something else?
T

Tutin: Samf brought up some interesting points on the theory of learning, but I am not sure how helpful this would be solving the problem you are having of playing faster. I am no speed demon myself, but I do understand a little bit about how the arm works. So let me throw the following information out there, because it is possible this is something you haven't considered:

Since you have seen JoJo's video you are familiar with his concept of "gears", meaning the larger limbs and muscles are the big gears and the smaller ones are the little gears--with the fingers being the smallest. I think this is an interesting analogy, but it can be kind of misleading...because as drummers we can't actually switch gears, we have to use all our gears all of the time. For example, with a bike or a car when you shift gears, you completely bypass 1st when you shift into 2nd, 3rd when you shift into 4th, etc. But when playing the drums, you can't bypass the wrist when using the fingers, the upper arm when using the forearm, etc. The arm is a linear, connected system, so we have to use all of it all the time--especially if we want to improve our speed and power to world-class standards.

Unlike JoJo, I would say that the arm is more akin to a powertrain of a car. The upper arm is the engine, the forearm and wrist are the drive-train, and the hands and fingers are the wheels (where the rubber meets the road...or the hand meets the drumstick!). If you take the transmission and differential out of the equation, a powertrain is a linear, connected system, just like the arm, and one part of it can't move without all the other parts moving just as well.

Okay, finally to my point: A full drum stroke starts from the biggest limbs and then the energy is transferred to the smaller limbs and then finally to the stick (for example, the Moeller stroke.) When using the fingers to manipulate the drumstick, however, we start the stroke with the smallest limbs (the fingers). So when using the fingers the energy is transferred through the powertrain in reverse, and will travel from the hand up the arm and into the upper body. An analogy to using fingers in drumming is push starting a car with a manual transmission--you put it in first gear and push it down the road. The wheels turn, the drive train turns, and then finally the engine...and wham...the car starts!

What I am trying to say is when you are using your fingers to move your drumsticks, the rest of your arms and upper body should be very loose and flowing with no tension whatsoever. The majority of the movement should be taking place in the hand, but there should also be movement in the rest of your stroke--no matter how slight--and no rigidity anywhere in your "powertrain".

Regards,

Alex

[Samf]

Alex, absolutly outstanding post on the mechanics. I understand exactly what you are saying and agree with the fact that all must work together to transfer energy. When JoJo' vid goes into the mechanics he suggests the mechanics should be very larger than life so to speak. You are correct as he plays faster the movement is the same from the arm down to the wrists it is just very slight as speed increases.

IMHO if a drummer can understand the mechanics of the body and enconomy of motion along with the principals of learning he sould make fast progress in his/her learning curve provided they put the focused reps in. While understanding they will reach a point where they physically flatten out and increasing 1-3 bpm per week is good progress. There could come a point where at JoJo's speed 1-3 bpm in 6 months would be solid improvement.

Great post Alex and I hope many get something out of this discussion. Tutin hang in they bud and keep at it You have reached the flat area in your ability where you are not seeing 10-20 bpm jumps but that is OK and should be expected. Hopefully now you understand why and with that understanding will not become frustrated with your effort. Keep working and the progress will continue and enjoy the journey.

[Geoff_fry01]

interesting stuff...

one other point that has not been discussed... everybody has a different mixture of fast twitch and slow twitch muscles (fibres?)... I am no expert on this stuff but I bet someone on the net is!
That is why some people naturally make marathon runners and some 100m sprinters...

in other words (my understanding is) you can always improve (and tecnique will greatly effect this in drumming) but sadly you have to work with what you have... some guys naturally have more fast twitch muscle fibres...

hopefully some other guys can offer more info on this???


G

[spleen]

but sadly you have to work with what you have...
G

Hi Geoff,

Actually, there are some studies that indicate muscle fiber types might be able to change in response to training. I'm a former bodybuilder and I remember reading about this years ago..sorry I don't have any specific references for you but if your interested, I'm sure Google can show you the way!

regards,

spleen

[mattsmith]

I'm not saying I should be Mangini by now but I literally have made no improvement. I have good control, it's fine and I get constant stick height etc. but my runs have not improved at all, and it's really depressing me a bit. ...
I think you're just obsessing too much about it and now the whole thing is playing mind games on you. I increased 60 strokes during summer 2006 when I went to Europe with my folks and thought only sparingly about the exercises. I just had to clear my head. Now I've decided to set one more record, and I'm kinda stuck, because it's more important for the moment than it should be. Interestingly, when it starts to become fun again, you always do better. When I finally get in the zone I'll go up again. I just graduated from high school on Sunday, so I'm already starting to relax. So there you go.
well, the faster you get... the longer it takes to increase your speed, ...
I agree.
I guess you gotta apply FINGER TECHNIQUE, but gotta practice everyday, or push pull technique if you wanna go really fast, at a very fast tempo... only fingers or push-pull works.....
Or thumb only for traditional grip. There are actually many ways that work.
besides that, practice every single day, but first warm-up and dont jump on drums like throwing yourself in boiling water, breathe deep, stay relax, and do long warm-ups and then start practicing but staying relaxed and w/o getting frustrated, the advanced techniques take years to master, so... good luck! ...
Yes the warmup is essential, but the exercises do not always have to occur every day. Mangini especially has developed some alternatives in that regard. And they don't take years to master if you keep endurance in mind, but they do take awhile.
the guys that are so so so fast today, have been drumming for more than 15 years... there is no way you can be as fast as JoJo Mayer with only 10 years of drumming......
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. How does one explain the new crop that are 18 and younger? They're getting to those highest thresholds already. They do it by concentrating on endurance issues that go hand in hand with single stroke success anyway.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I don't think that concentrating on muscle fiber types is going to do any good in this case. Fast twitch muscles, we are told, are fast and strong for a short (less than 90 seconds) period of time. Slow twitch muscles are supposed to have endurance yet be slow.

So how does one explain Matt Smith and others playing over 1000 strokes per minute for extended periods of time? A fast twitch muscles can't go as long as what these guys are doing.

I believe that there is a neurological/physical thing going on rather than just a purely physical thing. The nervous system of fast drummers is primed so that it can send out the signals to contract at an incredible pace with little effort. The neurological pathway has been "greased" by long hours of practice with concentration on form. There is also a genetic component but we'll leave that out for now because anyone with a normal functioning nervous system and musculature has the ability to become amazingly fast. We can't all crack 110 but we can definitely all crack 900.

There is actually an interesting phenomena utilized by Olympic athletes to crack through plateaus which may apply here: The layoff. In essence, a short (1-3 week) layoff from intensive training allows for the nervous system to "forget" what it's previous high water marks were. The layoff must be short enough to not allow significant deconditioning.

Once training is resumed progress should also resume, busting past the plateau.

[Tutin]

Thanks so much for all this input guys.

I think maybe a layoff would be a good idea, it certainly seems it. I've thought about the fast and slow twitch muscle fibres before and I've also heard that although you can't change the ratio, their density is easy to increase. I don't know much more than that though, I suppose that'd be good to go into.

P.s. I'd just like to say thanks a lot to Alex, that was a post of doom about the gears in the arm. You put it very well. Thanks very much.

[Alex Luce]

Thanks Tutin! I should qualify my last post by saying when it comes to the type of speed and endurance players like Mangini and Matt Smith have I am not sure if I understand how they achieve it. Like Jeff Almeyda said, there is something else happening there...that seems beyond almost normal human functioning. I know Jeff is a serious student of speed in drumming, so he would have more insight into their abilities than I do.

[foursticks]

Actually, reiterating Jeff's point about laying off - taking a break (even if it's just 5 minutes) from ANY practise you're doing can work wonders. It works best when you've got into a bit of a rut with an excersise or whatever and you're mind is a bit confused (you can usually tell), so just a 5 minute break can allow you brain to sort of revamp itself back into shape and once you find you sit back at you're throne it somehow seems to come more naturally...

Hope that made sense, but it's something my teacher stressed though it may apply more to excersises out of books, but either way - deffo lay off a a while.

[Tutin]

Actually, reiterating Jeff's point about laying off - taking a break (even if it's just 5 minutes) from ANY practise you're doing can work wonders. It works best when you've got into a bit of a rut with an excersise or whatever and you're mind is a bit confused (you can usually tell), so just a 5 minute break can allow you brain to sort of revamp itself back into shape and once you find you sit back at you're throne it somehow seems to come more naturally...

Hope that made sense, but it's something my teacher stressed though it may apply more to excersises out of books, but either way - deffo lay off a a while.

Yeah that works too. I was trying to get a 3 against 7 polyrhythm today and got so frustrated over it then had a five minute break and it poured out of me like I'd been playing it for years. It's really cool stuff like that.

[Vinnysimmo]

Or thumb only for traditional grip. There are actually many ways that work.


True. Matt does it, i do it (Although im not fast) and Weckl does it a lot too.

[Tutin]

I've tried practising with my thumb in traditional grip, I don't know how you do it. I can get the motion right but I have trouble controlling the rebound. Eitherway, Matt definitely has skills at it.

[PQleyR]

I don't think that concentrating on muscle fiber types is going to do any good in this case. Fast twitch muscles, we are told, are fast and strong for a short (less than 90 seconds) period of time. Slow twitch muscles are supposed to have endurance yet be slow.

So how does one explain Matt Smith and others playing over 1000 strokes per minute for extended periods of time? A fast twitch muscles can't go as long as what these guys are doing.

I believe that there is a neurological/physical thing going on rather than just a purely physical thing. The nervous system of fast drummers is primed so that it can send out the signals to contract at an incredible pace with little effort. The neurological pathway has been "greased" by long hours of practice with concentration on form. There is also a genetic component but we'll leave that out for now because anyone with a normal functioning nervous system and musculature has the ability to become amazingly fast. We can't all crack 110 but we can definitely all crack 900.

There is actually an interesting phenomena utilized by Olympic athletes to crack through plateaus which may apply here: The layoff. In essence, a short (1-3 week) layoff from intensive training allows for the nervous system to "forget" what it's previous high water marks were. The layoff must be short enough to not allow significant deconditioning.

Once training is resumed progress should also resume, busting past the plateau.

I am reminded of something I heard once about athletes building muscle mass by thinking about physical activities, imagining themselves performing them rather than actually physically doing them. The mind is a more powerful tool than most people realise.

[foursticks]

I've tried practising with my thumb in traditional grip, I don't know how you do it. I can get the motion right but I have trouble controlling the rebound. Eitherway, Matt definitely has skills at it.

Mon frere, your answer lies HERE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=DenXvAuHCP8)..

[Tutin]

Mon frere, your answer lies HERE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=DenXvAuHCP8)..

Cheers foursticks, was pretty helpful. I'll get practising, I need to beat Matt haha.