Who plays jazz here?

[jay norem]

I'm certain that this is not the first time this has been asked on these forums.
There's been a discussion taking place on the "Best 100 Jazz Records" thread. And I started wondering. It would seem to me that jazz drummers would be pretty much in the minority here.
So anyway here's what I'm wondering: How many of you play nothing but jazz? I mean, obviously, when you're not playing the Bb gigs to make a living.
I do, but then I'm old and decrepit. Seriously, though, I'd be most interested in hearing from my fellow jazz drummers here.
Or is this just too corny an idea for a thread?

[Steamer]

Modern acoustic jazz only for me Jay. Trios, quartets right up to large ensembles.

[Derek]

There's nothing at all corny about your idea Jay.

[blade123]

I'm not ignorant enough to play solely jazz, but jazz is where my heart is at, and pretty much all I want to play. Now only if I could jam with other people...(not in school band)

[Derek]

I'm not ignorant enough to play solely jazz, but jazz is where my heart is at, and pretty much all I want to play. Now only if I could jam with other people...(not in school band)

Ignorant to solely play jazz ? Wow.

[blade123]

Ignorant to solely play jazz ? Wow.

I'm open to every style. I like to borrow things from every style, latin, rock, funk. It's ignorant to say "jazz is the best style and I won't play anything else because all other styles suck". You should learn every style and incorporate every style into each other. If you only play jazz, think about all the great music that you're missing, and visa versa.

[Steamer]

I'm not ignorant enough to play solely jazz, but jazz is where my heart is at, and pretty much all I want to play. Now only if I could jam with other people...(not in school band)

There's nothing "ignorant" about solely playing jazz. I've been doing just that professionally for 32 years now and i'm pretty satisfied musically with having made that choice with a pretty wide spectrum of musical experiences under my belt in doing just that so far . Just have to do what your heart tells you and follow the music...

Have fun with whatever road{s} your own musical journey may take you on.

[blade123]

There's nothing "ignorant" about solely playing jazz. I've been doing just that professionally for 32 years now and i'm pretty satisfied musically with having made that choice . Just have to do what your heart tells you and follow the music.

Have fun with whatever road{s} your own musical journey may take you on.

Alright, if there's one thing that you can't argue with, that's results. If it works for you, and you are doing well, and I can't logically argue against that. Good job man! :)

[Michael G]

Jazz is the most stupidest style of music ever.

I should probably be more skilled by now in other styles but I haven't got around to it, oh well.

[Steamer]

Alright, if there's one thing that you can't argue with, that's results. If it works for you, and you are doing well, and I can't logically argue against that. Good job man! :)


Each individual is different. Your journey may be very different than mine and that's just fine because there's no "one size fits all" program we all fit in when making personal choices regarding music.

Have fun!

[blade123]

To lighten the mood, are you in any groups right now? Or do you just go to a bar and play standards?
Any recordings?

[Steamer]

To lighten the mood, are you in any groups right now? Or do you just go to a bar and play standards?
Any recordings?


I play in several groups blade123 ranging from trios right up to large ensembles. Mostly do concerts and small club gigs and some out of town dates during the year. Mostly involved in original music related jazz projects. Also teach and give drum master classes at a jazz workshop in the Summer.

Several recordings i'm on are listed on my MySpace home page. Here's a thread I recently posted that features some sample tracks of my most current playing with a local quartet working from a CD project i'm involved with provided in the included link in the thread:

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38460

[blade123]

I play in several groups blade123 ranging from trios right up to large ensembles. Mostly do concerts and small club gigs and some out of town dates during the year. Mostly involved in original music related jazz projects. Also teach and give drum master classes at a jazz workshop in the Summer.

Several recordings i'm on are listed on my MySpace home page. Here's a thread I recently posted that features some sample tracks of my most current playing with a local quartet working from a CD project i'm involved with provided in the included link in the thread:

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38460

Great playing man
I just listened to a bit of some of your songs, great work.
You have good tastes.

[Steamer]

Great playing man
I just listened to a bit of some of your songs, great work.
You have good tastes.


Thanks for the kind words blade123.

[mind_drummer]

I'm "trying" to play jazz or what I'd call "experimental jazz" but it isn't easy coming from and Metal/Rock background but I'm working on John Riley "The Art of Bop Drumming" book and many other books & lessons, working with brushes etc... I'll eventually (I hope) get there :-)

[Derek]

I'm open to every style. I like to borrow things from every style, latin, rock, funk. It's ignorant to say "jazz is the best style and I won't play anything else because all other styles suck". You should learn every style and incorporate every style into each other. If you only play jazz, think about all the great music that you're missing, and visa versa.

No one said to "play only jazz because all other styles ,,," well. you know. And no, I don't shut the doors to a variety of music. But there are many musicians who have explored different styles and found that jazz is their true love and passion and have gone on to a very fulfilling life/career. They are very happy and there is nothing ignorant in their choice, just as many others get their joy with a variety.
To each his / her own.

[jay norem]

Jazz is the most stupidest style of music ever.

No, it should be "Jazz is the most stupid style of music ever."

[jay norem]

To lighten the mood, are you in any groups right now?

I have my own band. We've been rehearsing off and on for about a year, working up my music. We're playing out now, not that much but as much as we can, and we're going to record 12 original songs before the summer's out.
In between all that I play the Bb gigs for dough.

[Joe P]

He was making a funny.

Anyway, I play jazz and I love it! My favorites to play are big band and fusion.

[aydee]

Well, jazz is where my heart is as someone here said, but as a segway from the other discussion, I don't get enough opportunities to play.

I play with different sets of gigging professionals depending on the gigs they get & my availability. (I have a real job too ; )

Often the gigs they get aren't jazz, unless its a music festival, or a club owner wants background cocktail music which is great because I get to practice my brushes, but awful from a music point of view

So often for me its a funk/fusion, r&b, world music, Indian/western fusion type thing.most oft

PS- I just recorded some House tracks with a young DJ from London which was a lot of fun.
Oh, and I did my 1st big band gig last month. It wasn't the disaster that I was expecting it to be.

[jay norem]

He was making a funny.

Anyway, I play jazz and I love it! My favorites to play are big band and fusion.

I've always wanted to play in a big band. Never happened, because there weren't any big bands around when I was coming up. In fact there still aren't any around, not where I live, anyway none that are good enough that would make me want to play with them. Modern times, you see.

[jazzgregg]

Yeah Jay, it's a fine idea, not corny at all. I play Jazz and other improvised music and do not believe in limitations or boxes of any kind.

G

[jay norem]

Yeah Jay, it's a fine idea, not corny at all. I play Jazz and other improvised music and do not believe in limitations or boxes of any kind.

G

Well, jazz is as much of a "box" as death metal is, I guess. But, the jazz box has air-conditioning.

[jazzgregg]

Well, jazz is as much of a "box" as death metal is, I guess. But, the jazz box has air-conditioning.

Mine doesn't! Dammit...

I know it is, that's why I said what I said and to me it's a really, REALLY big box=)

G

[blade123]

I have my own band. We've been rehearsing off and on for about a year, working up my music. We're playing out now, not that much but as much as we can, and we're going to record 12 original songs before the summer's out.
In between all that I play the Bb gigs for dough.

Not to sound like an idiot, but what is a Bb gig? Just cheesy standards to pay the bills?

[jay norem]

Not to sound like an idiot, but what is a Bb gig? Just cheesy standards to pay the bills?

Yeah that's pretty much it. Weddings and all that. Pays well. Tuxedo gigs.
You get in with a few contractors and you can make a pretty good living doing those.
Not that it's anyone's dream, you know, to become a "wedding drummer." But at least you're not working in an office.

[Drummer Karl]

...jazz is where my heart is at, and pretty much all I want to play. Now only if I could jam with other people...(not in school band)

Exactly the same thing with me here. I love to play/listen to Jazz, indeed it is where my heart is at. And I do it 90% of my time...but yeah, I`d love to find other people to play with except the school Jazz band.

Though I recently "got called" on a Jazz workshop from a tenor sax...he told me that he wanna pick me up for a youth Jazz band. I`ll see what happens...

Karl

[jayp]

Jazz is also where my heart is in relation to musical genre, but I never would limit myself to ONLY jazz.

I love all styles funk, rock, hip-hop, latin, afro-cuban you name it.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I've always wanted to play in a big band. Never happened, because there weren't any big bands around when I was coming up. In fact there still aren't any around, not where I live, anyway none that are good enough that would make me want to play with them. Modern times, you see.

You could put one together. And change the modern times.
casper

[dcrigger]

Count me in. I play many gigs outside of even my very broad definition of what jazz is; some Bb, and some less so. But as others have posted, the spirit of jazz is where my heart has always been.

David

[aydee]

.....the jazz box has air-conditioning.

...it does? I thought it smelt funny because it didn't, and it had beers stains, crushed pretzels all over the box floor ?... : )

...and the rent was overdue..

[Bassdrummer]

I love jazz

Just can't play it worth a darn

Anything else I can play...that jazz is tough

But then again I can't find anyone to play with,..the guysI know that do play I couldn't hang with...so what's a fella to do? Put the headphones on and keep woodshedding!

[Clayton_C]

I can play any given genre of music, but jazz is really my forte. I LOVE big band stuff (Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Buddy Rich Big Band, Gene Krupa, Ellington, etc.), as well as combo style playing (Art Blakely & the Jazz Messengers, The Miles Davis Quintet, The Peter Erskine Trio, etc.).

I'm a junior in high-school, playing with my school jazz band (we aren't half bad... took 3rd this year at the Fullerton Jazz Festival - which is the SW United States division), but really focusing on honor bands, local gigs, etc. I've had the opportunity to play with a young sax player by the name of Isaiah Morfin - an absolute prodigy who will literally grow up to be the next Eric Marienthal. I also go to a Tuesday night jam session, where I've had the opportunity to jam with Doug Davis, Johnny Blue, and Paul Perez (ex-lead alto for the Tower of Power... yes, the real deal!).

I've been mostly self-taught during my 4 years of drumming experience, although I recently started taking lessons from the drum instructor with the Bob Cole Conservatory's (CalStateUniv Long Beach) Percussion Program. I'm hoping to get some sort of performance degree, either in Percussion or Jazz Studies. I'm also in the process of learning Vibes for a jazz setting.

So yeah, I do jazz. :)

[foursticks]

I'll hop on board.. I agree with matt (and thanks for the mention!) - drummerworld has surprisingly many jazzers, though some don't post as often as they used to or in worst cases have got themselves banned.. oops?

As for me, I'm merely trying to follow in the footsteps of Coltrane and eventually evolve that into something new (but that's going to take a LONG time). I've recently set up a quartet with a more spiritual and 'free-er' vibe and I'm hoping to take that to places, but I'll have to see how it works out.

For anyone who is interested (sorry about the cheap advertising..) my playing can be found here: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38061 with a trio and my quartet..

Babak

[The Keith Moon]

In my opinion, if you can play Jazz, it is wonderful. To me, Jazz is very hard to play. I think rock drumming is very easy, especially, if you are following what Keith Moon did, you dont have to play the same style every time, you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT, and still have fun.

I always wonder how people play Jazz drumming, it seems complicated to me and I find no fun in learning it.

Matt Sorum plays Jazz, I thought he was just a rock drummer...sweet

[foursticks]

I always wonder how people play Jazz drumming, it seems complicated to me and I find no fun in learning it.

That's because you're probably not really embracing the music. There's a lot of hype about how jazz drumming is 'hard' - but really it's all about how much effort you put in and how much you want to learn. It's like anything in life - what effort you put in, you're going to get exactly that in terms of results.
As for Keith, I think he's a great drummer and I know his your hero (big time), but trust me, there are plenty of drummers out there you don't play by 'the rules' and if they have great technique it's because they've learnt the rules so they can break them. There genres of music out there where you can play whatever you want - it's called improvisational music.
Bottom line: if you wanna do jazz drumming, get into the MUSIC first and OPEN your mind man - that's other drummers than Keith! He's still one of a kind..

[Muckster]

I play Fusion and Be Bop Jazz. Not a big demand for these styles around my neck of the woods, so rock and blues gigs are just about the only choice if you wnat to play with a band. I find blues absoutely boring as a drummer...three sets of nothing more than watching the guitar player solo.

[Guillermo]

U embrace playing any style I can feel comfortable in, if I like the music.

Jazz, not being the exception... I do enjoy playing, but it's a sweet n' sorrow thing for me... because BEING a musician but most importantly a MUSIC LOVER I see how FAR I am compared to jazz greats... a gap much longer than that in any other style that insterests me... that gives me motivation to improve.

[jay norem]

In my opinion, if you can play Jazz, it is wonderful. To me, Jazz is very hard to play. I think rock drumming is very easy

I think what hangs up rock drummers where playing jazz is concerned is not so much a matter of technique. It's more a conceptual matter. See, in rock, funk, pop, country, blues, you're playing beats. In jazz you don't play beats. You play time.
When I practice I mainly work on my ride cymbal, because to me that's the primary instrument in the jazz drum kit. But to practice jazz-time you've got to play with other people. And that's pretty difficult to do these days unless you live in a big city where you can sit in with jazz musicians on a regular basis.
It's a simple thing really. You're not playing jazz unless you're playing it, and you can't play jazz unless you play jazz! Weird...
I could practice beats by myself all day, and at night insert those beats into a number of different styles of music, different songs, but you just can't do that with jazz. It'd sound like s**t.
What makes jazz different from other kinds of popular music is its approach to time. For example, you won't be hearing any click track at a jazz recording session.
Jazz hard to play? I'll let you know when I've finally figured out how to do it myself!

[caddywumpus]

I think what hangs up rock drummers where playing jazz is concerned is not so much a matter of technique. It's more a conceptual matter. See, in rock, funk, pop, country, blues, you're playing beats. In jazz you don't play beats. You play time.
When I practice I mainly work on my ride cymbal, because to me that's the primary instrument in the jazz drum kit. But to practice jazz-time you've got to play with other people. And that's pretty difficult to do these days unless you live in a big city where you can sit in with jazz musicians on a regular basis.
It's a simple thing really. You're not playing jazz unless you're playing it, and you can't play jazz unless you play jazz! Weird...
I could practice beats by myself all day, and at night insert those beats into a number of different styles of music, different songs, but you just can't do that with jazz. It'd sound like s**t.
What makes jazz different from other kinds of popular music is its approach to time. For example, you won't be hearing any click track at a jazz recording session.
Jazz hard to play? I'll let you know when I've finally figured out how to do it myself!

When I heard this a few years back from a local cat, it totally changed my mindset toward jazz. I had been working out of the Riley books, the Chapin book, etc... for what seemed like forever. I thought of "playing time" and "broken time" as two separate kinds of "beats". And then there was latin jazz with its collection of "beats" as well. Jazz waltz was a "beat", and so on. I had built up all of this coordination in an attempt to understand what and how to play in the jazz idiom.

It boils down to this for me...Play time, swing as hard as you can, and anything else on top of that should only be added if/as it fits the music. When you play too busy, or you're trying to impress other drummers with your "vocabulary" (as newbies usually do), then you're not serving the tune. There's a place for showing your "chops". It's called the drum solo. The rest of the time you're there, you're supporting what is being created in the moment, collectively, by all of the musicians.

Okay, I'm done preaching to me. Maybe someone else might benefit from my scolding of myself.

[foursticks]

When I heard this a few years back from a local cat, it totally changed my mindset toward jazz. I had been working out of the Riley books, the Chapin book, etc... for what seemed like forever. I thought of "playing time" and "broken time" as two separate kinds of "beats". And then there was latin jazz with its collection of "beats" as well. Jazz waltz was a "beat", and so on. I had built up all of this coordination in an attempt to understand what and how to play in the jazz idiom.

It boils down to this for me...Play time, swing as hard as you can, and anything else on top of that should only be added if/as it fits the music. When you play too busy, or you're trying to impress other drummers with your "vocabulary" (as newbies usually do), then you're not serving the tune. There's a place for showing your "chops". It's called the drum solo. The rest of the time you're there, you're supporting what is being created in the moment, collectively, by all of the musicians.

Okay, I'm done preaching to me. Maybe someone else might benefit from my scolding of myself.

I'm not even sure that drum solos are a place for 'chops' - who said drum solos weren't musical?

Maybe I'm just being nit-picky...

[zambizzi]

Well I don't play it *here*...I play it at home...I'm at work right now. But yeah I recently hopped into a Jazz/Fusion thing w/ a trombone player, bassist, guitarist, and keys player...it's going so-so but we're improving.

Exploring jazz was a way for me to add a new dimension to my rock drumming, which is happening already. I'm definitely getting better control of my dynamics and playing to the melody...the rock band I play with on the side is seeing that come through every week...which is great.

[zambizzi]

I'm not even sure that drum solos are a place for 'chops' - who said drum solos weren't musical?

Maybe I'm just being nit-picky...

Agreed...play what you want as long as it fits in w/ the rest of the group....soloing, comping, or just keeping time.

The term "overplaying" is "overrated" and "overused".

[jay norem]

The term "overplaying" is "overrated" and "overused".

So is the term "I play jazz."

[Ian Ballard]

I'm certain that this is not the first time this has been asked on these forums.
There's been a discussion taking place on the "Best 100 Jazz Records" thread. And I started wondering. It would seem to me that jazz drummers would be pretty much in the minority here.
So anyway here's what I'm wondering: How many of you play nothing but jazz? I mean, obviously, when you're not playing the Bb gigs to make a living.
I do, but then I'm old and decrepit. Seriously, though, I'd be most interested in hearing from my fellow jazz drummers here.
Or is this just too corny an idea for a thread?

From a personal standpoint, I've always had a passion for jazz, since my grandma used to put on Benny Goodman, Buddy Rich (both as sideman and leader) records and such. My parents were hippie-type, 60's--70's rock fans, so I got a mix. But, after seeing Buddy live, it inspired me!

I played some jazz band in school, but it wasn't until I began hanging out at the Mutual Musicians Foundation in KC (http://www.thefoundationjamson.org/) at age 17, did I really learn about jazz playing. I mastered the Mel Bay Jazz Cookbook and I thought I was something.... and I felt that after seeing Tony Williams in clinic, somehow through osmosis, I was some hot, young jazz cat. BOY WAS I WRONG!! The first time I got up there and started "shing-a-ling-ing", they stopped. Basically, they looked at me like I was an idiot (which I was, jazz-wise), told me to "Sit the %$@& down!" and I did. Eventually, after going many times and making friends, learning from the old guys, etc... I could play jazz with passion. It was around that time a friend of my mom's gave me his jazz record collection and I began listening to these old records religiously.

Also around that time, Big Band-a-Billy became popular. It fused Big Band Swing with Rock-a-Billy and I joined a group. I played for years in blues bands, honing my shuffle skills, and played in several small group combos... some playing standards and some being totally avant garde.

But learning from books does NOTHING for making you a jazz musician. It might give you some coordination, but you HAVE to play with real, seasoned musicians, or you are just floundering around.

I currently sub in a group here in Lawrence and have played with some KU jazz band kids.

Yes, I "play jazz". But I still won't call myself a "jazz musician".

[brittc89]

.
When you play too busy, or you're trying to impress other drummers with your "vocabulary" (as newbies usually do), then you're not serving the tune. There's a place for showing your "chops". It's called the drum solo. The rest of the time you're there, you're supporting what is being created in the moment, collectively, by all of the musicians.



Youd be surprised how many tasteless players there are that are in no way "newbies."

[brittc89]

I'm not even sure that drum solos are a place for 'chops' - who said drum solos weren't musical?

Maybe I'm just being nit-picky...

Youre exactly right. A good drum solo is still adding to the music in a constructive way and for the players I personally feel are the best at what they do (Brian Blade, Hamid Drake, Bill Stewart, Jim Black, and the list goes on and on and on) they are not just pulling out their "chops" just because its a drum solo.

[Ian Ballard]

Youd be surprised how many tasteless players there are that are in no way "newbies."

Lots of people considered Tony Williams "too loud" and "tasteless".

But what would we do without his vocabulary? Maybe there were times when he was over-the-top, but he never had any trouble finding cats to play with and has never had any issues with being put on the top of the "Greatest of all time" list... and Miles made his "Best %&$#ing drummer in the @#$%ing world" statements.

There's a place for Dave Tough and Jo Jones and a place for Tony Williams and Roy Haynes.

[brittc89]

Lots of people considered Tony Williams "too loud" and "tasteless".

But what would we do without his vocabulary? Maybe there were times when he was over-the-top, but he never had any trouble finding cats to play with and has never had any issues with being put on the top of the "Greatest of all time" list... and Miles made his "Best %&$#ing drummer in the @#$%ing world" statements.

There's a place for Dave Tough and Jo Jones and a place for Tony Williams and Roy Haynes.

In no way was I claiming Tony Williams or Roy Haynes were tasteless. I was just adressing the fact that he specified that mostly "newbies" were responsible for the crimes of overplaying tastelessly.

[mattsmith]

Lots of people considered Tony Williams "too loud" and "tasteless".

I have always believed that was because he was a 17 year old obvious innovator playing with Miles Davis. Had he back then been playing the exact same music as a 30 year old, jazz critics and the jealous talented players not getting Williams' exposure would have parted the Red Sea for him.

[jazzgregg]

I have always believed that was because he was a 17 year old obvious innovator playing with Miles Davis. Had he back then been playing the exact same music as a 30 year old, jazz critics and the jealous talented players not getting Williams' exposure would have parted the Red Sea for him.

Disagree. He was 'too different' and 'too loud' compared to everyone else. Elvin got the same criticisms at 30.

G

[Ian Ballard]

I have always believed that was because he was a 17 year old obvious innovator playing with Miles Davis. Had he back then been playing the exact same music as a 30 year old, jazz critics and the jealous talented players not getting Williams' exposure would have parted the Red Sea for him.

I meant music critics. Musicians, most of them anyway, stood in AWE of Tony.

He did what nobody else dared... and did it until he died.

The last track of his Neptune album (can't remember the name) is literally a human freight train rolling over the music, yet also embracing it like a mother to a newborn baby.

NOBODY can claim to do both with the same piece of music.

[Steamer]

Lots of people considered Tony Williams "too loud" and "tasteless".

But what would we do without his vocabulary? Maybe there were times when he was over-the-top, but he never had any trouble finding cats to play with and has never had any issues with being put on the top of the "Greatest of all time" list... and Miles made his "Best %&$#ing drummer in the @#$%ing world" statements.

There's a place for Dave Tough and Jo Jones and a place for Tony Williams and Roy Haynes.


Well i've never considered Tony Williams "too loud" or "tasteless" from when when he was 17 right up to his untimely death at all just a matter of putting things in their proper musical perspective IMO which comes with developing your listening and conceptual learning skills related to jazz playing and drumming. All I hear and still hear is a genius of rhythmic invention,melodic and harmonic development, tension and release and question and answer dialoque all put together with a full on level of full on intent and commitment to getting a great projectiing drum "sound" out to the audience either well playing a masterful solo or well playing with an incredible floating but intense swing and groove combined with some very high level concentrated group listening skills going on to complete the package. Hearing him live several times set the bar for me at the level of connection between the drums and music and "musical" drumming as a whole in modern jazz. You can't capture the feeling in the room of hearing Tony's intensity and sound on recordings just not the same. The feeling and vibrations coming off the drums and music in the flesh was pure nirvana well at least it was for me.

Feel the exact same way about hearing in the flesh all my other favorites such as Jack Dejohnette, Elvin Jones, Bob Moses, Roy Haynes etc... They all have the complete musical package either playing a remarkably interesting improvised musical solo or in the context of high level interactive and fiery group playing and improvisation and added to that mix with none of them {or were in Elvin's case bless his soul} afraid to really play the drums full on to get "their" sound out. Like drummers that really mean it and can swing you to your grave at the same time.

To end i'll finish with one of my time favorite Tony quotes: "People say I play too loud but the drums are MEANT to be played loud".

[mattsmith]

Disagree. He was 'too different' and 'too loud' compared to everyone else. Elvin got the same criticisms at 30.

G
I have a big stack of 1960s Down Beats in my room. There are many reviews in those things of the Miles/Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams band, especially in the early stages. Almost every time without exception the critic goes off about how age and maturity will overcome the overplaying of Tony Williams. I don't think too many of those guys were even listening to him. They were just seeing the baby faced kid who took Philly Joe's gig. At least in Down Beat he got ragged through the Miles phase and all the way through the Lifetime phase. And back then Down Beat reviews were actually considered important, as opposed to now when nobody cares.
I meant music critics.
Me too. And many of those critics were older jazz musicians. But you're right the writer critics were the main instigators for sure.

[jazzgregg]

I have a big stack of 1960s Down Beats in my room. There are many reviews in those things of the Miles/Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams band, especially in the early stages. Almost every time without exception the critic goes off about how age and maturity will overcome the overplaying of Tony Williams. I don't think too many of those guys were even listening to him. They were just seeing the baby faced kid who took Philly Joe's gig. At least in Down Beat he got ragged through the Miles phase and all the way through the Lifetime phase. And back then Down Beat reviews were actually considered important, as opposed to now when nobody cares.

Me too.



I don't really read Jazz magazines, so I don't know what they were saying about him in the 60's, in magazines from the 60's.
G

[Steamer]

In no way was I claiming Tony Williams or Roy Haynes were tasteless. I was just adressing the fact that he specified that mostly "newbies" were responsible for the crimes of overplaying tastelessly.

By not understanding the intent of it all in the hands of the masters of the instrument... only capturing the chops not the overall musical concept in context it's all directly in relation too...

Kenny Washington mentioned this years ago as the "Fatal Flaw" as he put it to understanding Tony and "why" Tony played what he did..It's all about the music.

[Ian Ballard]

And really, nobody gives a crap about critics when you're working and getting paid, meaning there are people paying you by attending and watching.

Really, can anybody name a reviewer from Downbeat from then, without looking at one?

No.

But nobody will ever forget Tony.

[Steamer]

And really, nobody gives a crap about critics when you're working and getting paid, meaning there are people paying you by attending and watching.

Really, can anybody name a reviewer from Downbeat from then, without looking at one?

No.

But nobody will ever forget Tony.

Bingo!!! You win the grand prize sitting and waiting to be claimed in the window Ian...

[dcrigger]

And really, nobody gives a crap about critics when you're working and getting paid, meaning there are people paying you by attending and watching.

Well I'm not sure that's really true. Artists spend huge resources getting products to critics for review and yes, what's written in those reviews do matter. Probably the single largest expense involved in releasing the new "Transvalue" CD I'm involved with - was the big publicity mailing. A huge chunk of the inventory plus a lot of very expensive postage spent sending free copies to anyone worldwide that might be in a position to give us a line or two of print. Oh no, critics do matter.

But keep in mind, that doesn't always mean a bad review is always a bad review. I mean, if you're going for "leading edge" as Miles was in the 60's, then the "establishment" ragging on you is exactly the kind of publicity you want. So no I don't agree with those critics assessment of Tony back then, but I can see how he was definitely "news". Just like Miles wanted. :-)

But that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.



Really, can anybody name a reviewer from Downbeat from then, without looking at one?

No.

Sure, Don Heckman for one. From high school forward, I read a lot of downbeats as a kid - and later even got covered by some of those same critics myself. And yes, what they wrote did matter to me. :-)


But nobody will ever forget Tony.

Can't argue there.

David

[Ian Ballard]

I never give a rip, when I hear a critic's opinion. I still want to see it for myself. Unless I KNOW the person who is telling me "this movie sucks" or "this band is great", etc, I don't TRUST their opinion. Maybe over time, if a given critic is on par with your general opinion, sure.

Point?

If people give in to whiney music critics and refuse to check out a band because, "The mean 'ol dwummer is too loud!", screw them! They can't think for themselves and they don't deserve to waste my time anyway.

No, that's not a Buddy Rich quote.

;)

I hate the idea of "judging art", as if opinion is LAW or something. This, along with the paradoxical inference that somehow this "expert critic" is right about his opinion about art, is what is broken about music and people who buy into it. The fact that people actually get paid (more than me, likely) to spew their indignation about music and art is sick to me. This isn't Consumer Reports. You aren't protecting people from bad products. Art is not a product, unless you are some slimy record exec. Dig?

[Steamer]

I never give a rip, when I hear a critic's opinion. I still want to see it for myself. Unless I KNOW the person who is telling me "this movie sucks" or "this band is great", etc, I don't TRUST their opinion. Maybe over time, if a given critic is on par with your general opinion, sure.

Point?

If people give in to whiney music critics and refuse to check out a band because, "The mean 'ol dwummer is too loud!", screw them! They can't think for themselves and they don't deserve to waste my time anyway.

No, that's not a Buddy Rich quote.

;)

I hate the idea of "judging art", as if opinion is LAW or something. This, along with the paradoxical inference that somehow this "expert critic" is right about his opinion about art, is what is broken about music and people who buy into it. The fact that people actually get paid (more than me, likely) to spew their indignation about music and art is sick to me. This isn't Consumer Reports. You aren't protecting people from bad products. Art is not a product, unless you are some slimy record exec. Dig?

Well we certainly are in complete100% aggreement on this point of view Ian :}

[aydee]

With due respect, David, Downbeats & critics, I believe went out with the digital age. With sound samples, blogging, forums such as these, and the internet, I can access, taste, get educated opinion/recommendation to any music thats out there.

I too grew up on a diet of DB, and at a time & environment when I needed someone to point me towards the 2 or 3 albums out of the 20 that were worth buying. Eloquent editorial skills were deployed to essentially describe the music to which I had no access and couldn't listen to ( ...except for WRVR radio, there was nothing in my neighborhood ).

Having said this, this is also the age of media. If there is a ground swell anywhere, a great player somewhere out there on the internet, or performing in a small club in Doohickeyville, it is more likely today than ever before that media will pick it up. Not as a qualitative statement but in the hope of momentary newswothiness.

When I produce music, thats all I need them to do.

I want the media vehicles to carry it . Online, offline, directmail, virals, blogs etc...( and if y'all think media doesn't manipulate blogs, think again ) Sure, I hope for good reviews, but if truth be told, I couldn't care less as long as enough people access it. They are the ones deciding.

In our business we now have a new name for the consumer. We call him the pro sumer.

I loved the album reviews & the blindfold tests, but its bye-bye to information dissemination, IMO.

P.S - Ian's comments about judging art is bang on & exactly how I feel, tho I did look towards a few " judges" that I , over time, developed a healthy respect for when I was younger and had $ 20 in my pocket for music..; )

[Steamer]

More on jazz critics. Thanks for getting me warmed up Ian:}

Yes the same very jazz critics who once called the music of John Coltrane anti-jazz or anti-music period in the 60's later lived long enough to write extensively on the subject down the road calling the same music by John Coltrane some of the most important contributions to modern music we've heard to date. Talk about some clever "frauds" and"fakes"...or was that "flakes"..

Draw your own conclusions on music critics...I did MANY a year ago.

[jazzgregg]

With due respect, David, Downbeats & critics, I believe went out with the digital age. With sound samples, blogging, forums such as these, and the internet, I can access, taste, get educated opinion/recommendation to any music thats out there.

I too grew up on a diet of DB, and at a time & environment when I needed someone to point me towards the 2 or 3 albums out of the 20 that were worth buying. Eloquent editorial skills were deployed to essentially describe the music to which I had no access and couldn't listen to ( ...except for WRVR radio, there was nothing in my neighborhood ).

Having said this, this is also the age of media. If there is a ground swell anywhere, a great player somewhere out there on the internet, or performing in a small club in Doohickeyville, it is more likely today than ever before that media will pick it up. Not as a qualitative statement but in the hope of momentary newswothiness.

When I produce music, thats all I need them to do.

I want the media vehicles to carry it . Online, offline, directmail, virals, blogs etc...( and if y'all think media doesn't manipulate blogs, think again ) Sure, I hope for good reviews, but if truth be told, I couldn't care less as long as enough people access it. They are the ones deciding.

In our business we now have a new name for the consumer. We call him the pro sumer.

I loved the album reviews & the blindfold tests, but its bye-bye to information dissemination, IMO.

P.S - Ian's comments about judging art is bang on & exactly how I feel, tho I did look towards a few " judges" that I , over time, developed a healthy respect for when I was younger and had $ 20 in my pocket for music..; )

No, David is right. As much is we may not want the critics to matter, that line of print IS still necessary to a certain extent. The only difference is it's a digital/online review now. Print magazines are waning (if not totally useless in most cases) but reviews are still as important to those who actually read reviews as ever.

G

[aydee]

... that line of print IS still necessary to a certain extent.

..Well, I guess you're right. To an extent.

A good drummer friend of mine has languished on the sidelines for almost a lifetime. A serious player with huge talent that nobody took too seriously.

Out of the blue he gets a call from McLaughlin, thanks to some good reccos, and does a record with him.

Bill Milkowski reviews the album, and points out the stand out drummer who is the closest thing to Tony that he's ever heard.

That one statement has triggered a ton inquiries and interest from the world at large.

It however remains to be seen if it translates though, and I really believe this to be an exception rather than a rule

[foursticks]

In response to this over-playing business - when I go to see a gig, I want the music to do something out of the blue, spontaneous and something that makes we go 'WOW'. Something adrenaline fuelled, busy and intense. Of course I enjoy the soothing ballad, but the music I tend to go for usually is generally of what I just described - but that's just me.

Overplaying and playing too busily can be good imo, but only in the right musical context (of course). I think that learning to use space in music, doesn't just apply in the sense that you have to learn when NOT to play, but you have to learn when to REALLY play and play busily, in order take the music to another level.

One thing I reall cannot stand is when a drummer completely misses a climax to a song and add no to colour or texture to the music (by use of crashes, fills, whatever needs be) and just swings away at the same volume.

Elvin was critised for playing too loud, but does anyone honestly think Coltrane's more intense stuff would have had the effect it had if Elvin hadn't played so busily?

Now playing with taste or tastelessly is a different thing. But playing busily - WONDERFUL stuff (if used correctly).

We actually had a similar discussion on one of Matt's 'my playing' threads...

[dcrigger]

..Well, I guess you're right. To an extent.

A good drummer friend of mine has languished on the sidelines for almost a lifetime. A serious player with huge talent that nobody took too seriously.

Out of the blue he gets a call from McLaughlin, thanks to some good reccos, and does a record with him.

Bill Milkowski reviews the album, and points out the stand out drummer who is the closest thing to Tony that he's ever heard.

That one statement has triggered a ton inquiries and interest from the world at large.

It however remains to be seen if it translates though, and I really believe this to be an exception rather than a rule

I don't know. I think you'll find many such "events" in the backgrounds of successful players. This kind of event can really jump start a players career on his/her move up the ladder.

But they aren't Golden Ticket either.

No one thing ever is. No single "big break" is enough.

How a player parlays one event to the next; exploits each opportunity; builds and sustains interest in themselves over time - these all have to been done really well for it all to really work, I believe.

David

[mattsmith]

..Well, I guess you're right. To an extent.

A good drummer friend of mine has languished on the sidelines for almost a lifetime. A serious player with huge talent that nobody took too seriously.

Out of the blue he gets a call from McLaughlin, thanks to some good reccos, and does a record with him.

Bill Milkowski reviews the album, and points out the stand out drummer who is the closest thing to Tony that he's ever heard.

That one statement has triggered a ton inquiries and interest from the world at large.

It however remains to be seen if it translates though, and I really believe this to be an exception rather than a rule
Yeah, that's a wierd thing how those critics are able to do that. This Bill Milkowski guy had a run in with my dad about 10 years ago. Apparently Milkowski went to a place where Dad had some people warming up the better known act that Milkowski had actually come to see. The whole time Dad's show was going on, Milkowski talked loudly and continuously to the people at his table no more than a couple of meters from the stage, got up several times to hug, back slap, glad hand, continued this behavior through the music announcements, silence etc, as if there was no act on the stand at all. Mom said people were cheering and standing for dad's band from their chairs, while Milkowski continued to do what he was doing.

After the set, the main act came by to talk to Dad and sat at Mom and Dad's table. Dad says Milkowski stands right over Dad and starts to talk to this guy as if Dad wasn't even sitting there already talking. Then he takes the back of Dad's chair and tells him that he needs to sit there to ask this guy some questions. Because he had paid no attention whatsoever to the previous band, he didn't even know that Dad was the same guy who had just been playing an arm's length from his face. Mom said what Dad did immediately after wasn't something you repeat to people. Then of course, Milkowski wrote a bad review about Dad's band when he never heard a note of it.

A couple of years ago, I was at IAJE and I saw Milkowski for the very first time. He looked like a homeless guy, and yeah just like Mom had said, he talked through most of the shows he came to. I compared that to all the jazz scholars who were walking around with ties on, and who knew a million times more, and wrote better books and could actually play. That's when I decided that critics weren't worth the time, and decided that if I have any success at this music thing that I was going to just ignore them.

[Rolo]

I love jazz. I've been playing for quite a while but I was too young to pay attention and care too much. But now I'm more interested in the Drums than in the past! Jazz really does bring it out to me. But I'm more of a fast pace Jazz person. Although I can't play Jazz perfectly, I can play it. I do need more practice. Hopefully I will make it past the audition in my Jazz Ensemble at the high school I'm going to next year.

[volvoguy]

Well, I mostly only listen to "jazz"... what the hell *is* "jazz" anyway? :-)

Coltrane stuff with Eric Dolphy (Village Vanguard?) could rank as my favorite at the moment.

...but blues works, too... and I absolutely love Jimi Hendrix.

I agree with everyone else: Why is it so hard to find people to play/jam with? Our town has two kinds of music: Crazy loud heavy metal/punk stuff... or "praise" band music.

I guess I answered my own question....

-Ryan

[Ian Ballard]

Well, my town has been stricken with a Blue-Grass Hippie phase.... they don't believe me, but it's a phase.

These guys were grungers ten years ago. But now they can stop hiding behind their inherent redneckness, drive a pickup, pluck on a banjo.. and they are KEWL!

It's also one of those "kewl kid klubs", where there are these unwritten rules about what is and what is not KEWL.

Drummers or any percussionists are verboten.

But at least there are a few jazz dudes here. But I really miss KC...

[dcrigger]

With due respect, David, Downbeats & critics, I believe went out with the digital age. With sound samples, blogging, forums such as these, and the internet, I can access, taste, get educated opinion/recommendation to any music thats out there.

I too grew up on a diet of DB, and at a time & environment when I needed someone to point me towards the 2 or 3 albums out of the 20 that were worth buying. Eloquent editorial skills were deployed to essentially describe the music to which I had no access and couldn't listen to ( ...except for WRVR radio, there was nothing in my neighborhood ).


The digital ages biggest boon for independent artists is the democratization of distribution. I can get my indie product to the world - even outlets like Amazon will put my release right on the shelf next to the releases from Blue Note, etc. This is a huge, quantum shift in how the industry works - for distribution... but not really for marketing.

For marketing, the demand for attention - though no longer held by one or two "gate-keepers... the "Downbeats" of old - is as challenging as ever. And because nobody's minding the gate as to distribution, literally everything artists choose to make can and does get released.

So sure, I can offer sound samples, free samples, even choose to simply give downloads of a CD away for free and that doesn't mean anyone will be interested enough to even give it a look. Because your "2 or 3 in 20" example has grown, with open access to distribution, to 2 or 3 in 300.

Thus the clamor for ranking on sales sites - featured spots on MySpace Music, iTunes, Amazon - coverage in the right blogs - plays on the right internet radio shows - anything to increase exposure, so that people will even give you free samples a listen - or even take the time to listen to your music for free - if you chose to give it away.

Marketing is still the giant mountain to climb here.




Having said this, this is also the age of media. If there is a ground swell anywhere, a great player somewhere out there on the internet, or performing in a small club in Doohickeyville, it is more likely today than ever before that media will pick it up. Not as a qualitative statement but in the hope of momentary newswothiness.

When I produce music, thats all I need them to do.

I want the media vehicles to carry it . Online, offline, directmail, virals, blogs etc...( and if y'all think media doesn't manipulate blogs, think again ) Sure, I hope for good reviews, but if truth be told, I couldn't care less as long as enough people access it. They are the ones deciding.

But of course that's the rub. You just want them to carry the news about your thing and a thousand others want them to carry the news about theirs. But they might only have space for five items in their blog whatever - how will they choose? How do you get them to choose yours?



In our business we now have a new name for the consumer. We call him the pro sumer.

I don't follow you. I thought a "pro-sumer" was a consumer of products from within their chosen professional field.

My marketing here (the little signature part at the bottom of my post) is me marketing to pro-sumers. A drummer marketing a music based product to other musicians.

And yes, in jazz there can be some success in just being successful with other players - but that doesn't mean there still aren't regular consumers out there. People buying jazz products because they simply like the sound and experience of listening to it. Not because they play saxophone; or their son's in jazz band; or other pro-sumer type relationships.



I loved the album reviews & the blindfold tests, but its bye-bye to information dissemination, IMO.

P.S - Ian's comments about judging art is bang on & exactly how I feel, tho I did look towards a few " judges" that I , over time, developed a healthy respect for when I was younger and had $ 20 in my pocket for music..; )

The concept of judging art is difficult - and certainly a drag when a few get too powerful (as Matt's post illustrates) but... we all judge art.

We recommend some CD's over others to our friends. We rave about certain concerts and ho-hum about others. We decide what to we are going to spend our money on - by our judgements of past art. We post our opinions on players, music, CD's and events on this very forum all the time. "He's great" "He does really do it for me" Judgements.

The guy doing it for a living is pretty much doing the same thing - "I don't know you'll like - but you bought asked (or are at least reading my blog, magazine, whatever) so here's what I think". It just really isn't that different.

And most people would still be looking for some help with their choices - even if all the music was given away for free. Because there just isn't time to listen to it all.

So what should I listen to first?

Gee, I don't know.

Does anybody have any suggestions?

(See what I mean?)

David

[aydee]

This is a huge, quantum shift in how the industry works - for distribution... but not really for marketing.

That was pretty much my point. Marketing will have to follow suit and evolve into something more sophisticated than just grabbing my eyeballs and telling me stuff. I don't need to be told anymore, because I have my own ways of finding out. It will have to work much harder at convincing people to consider its pitch, even its it loud & powerful enough.

The good news? Whats easier than ever before today, is to more accurately determine where the denizens -most- likely- to listen- to -your- schtick exist. You can kinda pin point them on a map and sharp focus on them instead of competing with the entire food chain, or spreading yourself thin.

It doesn't change the fact that its still a mug's game that requires the occasional elbow to the head when the ref's not looking. Sad but true.

For marketing, the demand for attention - though no longer held by one or two "gate-keepers... the "Downbeats" of old - is as challenging as ever. And because nobody's minding the gate as to distribution, literally everything artists choose to make can and does get released.This is under rapid deconstruction and evolution, IMO, and we will eventually have lots of little gates all over the place, instead of the biggies, once the dust settles..and since there will always be people who will look to others to show them the way be it fashion, music , movies, or whatever, the purveyors of good taste will also be there, manning the little gates, separating the wheat from the chaff.

So sure, I can offer sound samples, free samples, even choose to simply give downloads of a CD away for free and that doesn't mean anyone will be interested enough to even give it a look. Because your "2 or 3 in 20" example has grown, with open access to distribution, to 2 or 3 in 300.

Thus the clamor for ranking on sales sites - featured spots on MySpace Music, iTunes, Amazon - coverage in the right blogs - plays on the right internet radio shows - anything to increase exposure, so that people will even give you free samples a listen - or even take the time to listen to your music for free - if you chose to give it away.
This is a larger problem that the music industry faces... no easy answers there. Suddenly music is much easier/cheaper to make and serve up on a platter. What now brown cow ?..: )

To help writers and artists earn a living online, software engineers and Internet evangelists need to exercise the power they hold as designers.
Information is free on the Internet because we created the system to be that way.

Marketing is still the giant mountain to climb here. I agree. Marketing today is still old skool rules being applied to a new game. Not working..

But of course that's the rub. You just want them to carry the news about your thing and a thousand others want them to carry the news about theirs. But they might only have space for five items in their blog whatever - how will they choose? How do you get them to choose yours?Many are busy trying to crack this code. What definitely NOT going to work anymore is the automatic assumption of bigger badder marketing spend, the louder I shout, the more that I'm in your face routine... Many more are doing the latter unfortunately.


I don't follow you. I thought a "pro-sumer" was a consumer of products from within their chosen professional field.Prosumer is a metaphor for today's consumer, who is done with being told what to do.

Marketing today needs to seek his permission to interact with him. It needs to engage him very cautiously & intelligently. In his domain. He is much more educated and savvy than ever before.

If marketing annoys him by its over-hyped sales pitches or an unconvincing " dollar n pony shows", he can flick it off with his TiVo button.


As the Chinese say, "May we live in interesting times".

[ethanos]

More on jazz critics. Thanks for getting me warmed up Ian:}

Yes the same very jazz critics who once called the music of John Coltrane anti-jazz or anti-music period in the 60's later lived long enough to write extensively on the subject down the road calling the same music by John Coltrane some of the most important contributions to modern music we've heard to date. Talk about some clever "frauds" and"fakes"...or was that "flakes"..

Draw your own conclusions on music critics...I did MANY a year ago.

Although I am sure we are both in complete agreeance of the undeniable greatness of John Coltrane throughout his entire life as a musician and as a person, I must nevertheless say that I do think his music at that time could legitimately be classified as a type of anti-music or anti-art (both completely valid forms of art if you ask me). Why you ask? Trane and guys like Dolphy and Coleman, to mention a few, had a very surreal element to their playing, as well as an extremely organic style which some could even interpret as anti-capitalist in nature (Dolphy's playing is not exactly music for the masses). Furthermore, these artists ventured deeply into intentional dissonance and atonality, which in my opinion brought a definitive dada aesthetic to the music as a whole. I speculate that these aforementioned developments in their playing were a reflection of living in the USA in the 1960's and being african-american, not to mention being an artist living within an industrial society.

In short, I like to look at it like this: Those downbeat articles were written by aficionados of modernism struggling to make sense out of avant-garde post-modern art.

"Well, I just dont think they got it..." said the woman in the Matador's outfit.

At least thats another young jazz musician's take on it. Great thread by the way.

[mattsmith]

Although I am sure we are both in complete agreeance of the undeniable greatness of John Coltrane throughout his entire life as a musician and as a person, I must nevertheless say that I do think his music at that time could legitimately be classified as a type of anti-music or anti-art (both completely valid forms of art if you ask me). Why you ask? Trane and guys like Dolphy and Coleman, to mention a few, had a very surreal element to their playing, as well as an extremely organic style which some could even interpret as anti-capitalist in nature (Dolphy's playing is not exactly music for the masses). Furthermore, these artists ventured deeply into intentional dissonance and atonality, which in my opinion brought a definitive dada aesthetic to the music as a whole. I speculate that these aforementioned developments in their playing were a reflection of living in the USA in the 1960's and being african-american, not to mention being an artist living within an industrial society.

In short, I like to look at it like this: Those downbeat articles were written by aficionados of modernism struggling to make sense out of avant-garde post-modern art.

"Well, I just dont think they got it..." said the woman in the Matador's outfit.

At least thats another young jazz musician's take on it. Great thread by the way.

I agree with some of this, but the resistance I think was coming from much different directions. Whether right or wrong, when Coleman hit the scene, because of his lack of a past in the bigger jazz world, a lot of what he was doing was simply considered by these aficiando people to be incorrect playing. That plastic saxophone didn't help things either, and people like Miles Davis pushed the idea that he should never have been trying to play violin or trumpet either. There was also the part about how the classical crowd was telling jazz people that in Coleman, they had a genius on their hands but weren't cool enough to get it. The worst thing you can do to a jazz person is tell them they don't get something.

These same critic aficiandos knew Coltrane could play, but thought the classic quartet had betrayed the Miles legacy of the late 50s.They thought Coltrane was following Coleman, who they didn't believe was part of Coltrane's universe or as good a musician. And jazz critics never got Eric Dolphy or Albert Ayler when they were alive. I have those old magazines at home. Those reviews were mostly all bad.

These critic people were all on the Miles train then, that they weren't on before Miles started making records with Columbia. Then these same people threw Miles out like an old shoe when he started up with fusion. This is why I don't care what a magazine critic or a blogger critic ever says. They just resist everything new, jump on 5 years later after everybody else has, then attack the same people when it's all new again. I don't think they're really listening to the music at all. They just like hanging around the whole scene. They remind me of those people who call into sports radio programs the day after the game, second guessing everybody and demanding the coach be fired.

[Steamer]

I agree with some of this, but the resistance I think was coming from much different directions. Whether right or wrong, when Coleman hit the scene, because of his lack of a past in the bigger jazz world, a lot of what he was doing was simply considered by these aficiando people to be incorrect playing. That plastic saxophone didn't help things either, and people like Miles Davis pushed the idea that he should never have been trying to play violin or trumpet either. There was also the part about how the classical crowd was telling jazz people that in Coleman, they had a genius on their hands but weren't cool enough to get it. The worst thing you can do to a jazz person is tell them they don't get something.

These same critic aficiandos knew Coltrane could play, but thought the classic quartet had betrayed the Miles legacy of the late 50s.They thought Coltrane was following Coleman, who they didn't believe was part of Coltrane's universe or as good a musician. And jazz critics never got Eric Dolphy or Albert Ayler when they were alive. I have those old magazines at home. Those reviews were mostly all bad.

These critic people were all on the Miles train then, that they weren't on before Miles started making records with Columbia. Then these same people threw Miles out like an old shoe when he started up with fusion. This is why I don't care what a magazine critic or a blogger critic ever says. They just resist everything new, jump on 5 years later after everybody else has, then attack the same people when it's all new again. I don't think they're really listening to the music at all. They just like hanging around the whole scene. They remind me of those people who call into sports radio programs the day after the game, second guessing everybody and demanding the coach be fired.

You've got it buddy :}

I've seen bus loads of them {jazz writers/critics} traveling around together at our international jazz festival every year for over 20 years now to go see the players and shows they've been told are the "deal". In general they are as clueless about what's really happening in the music as a 3 day old dead dog. They just huddle together asking each other can he play can she play can they play, truly pathetic. A trained musician with developed ears over the years can tell something is happening or not happening both in regard to individual players and groups and at least respectful mature musicians will keep their mouth shut and reserve comment if it's not their cup of tea for the respect for what others may be after. The critics usually wait for someone to tell them the answer musically speaking since which in most cases they totally miss the mark based on their ill informed and ill equipped opinions about the music. Sorry to be so blunt but I’ve experienced some amazing acts of shameful disgrace in a written form directed at several truly gifted players that have crossed my path as a working professional and listener over many years by these clever with a pen no brains. They always want to appear they are surrounding themselves with the "right" music and "right" musicians whatever that may be. Shallow "in crowd" star “you know what’s” for short.

And to make it clear no one is safe from this bunch. I've been at concerts attended by the same crew hearing some truly amazing world class jazz that got completely panned which would have you swear reading the print the next day that both parties in attendance were at separate ends of the planet that night let alone the same concert venue.

As you can see I don't swing back and forth on the top of a fence Matt on how I feel about jazz critics and writers. My feelings are based on several observations as witnessed by this unique subhuman race firsthand.

Their opinions are based on clever writing to make them feel they are way above the music and have something on or above the actual practitioners of the craft. They can love you one day and hate you the next in print based off what's perceived to make them look like they've got the one up or perceived "hip" stance on what's the real happening music is at any given moment.

[Deltadrummer]

Although I am sure we are both in complete agreeance of the undeniable greatness of John Coltrane throughout his entire life as a musician and as a person, I must nevertheless say that I do think his music at that time could legitimately be classified as a type of anti-music or anti-art (both completely valid forms of art if you ask me). Why you ask? Trane and guys like Dolphy and Coleman, to mention a few, had a very surreal element to their playing, as well as an extremely organic style which some could even interpret as anti-capitalist in nature (Dolphy's playing is not exactly music for the masses). Furthermore, these artists ventured deeply into intentional dissonance and atonality, which in my opinion brought a definitive dada aesthetic to the music as a whole. I speculate that these aforementioned developments in their playing were a reflection of living in the USA in the 1960's and being african-american, not to mention being an artist living within an industrial society.

In short, I like to look at it like this: Those downbeat articles were written by aficionados of modernism struggling to make sense out of avant-garde post-modern art.

"Well, I just dont think they got it..." said the woman in the Matador's outfit.

At least thats another young jazz musician's take on it. Great thread by the way.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I don't think that Coltrane. Dolphy or Coleman were interested in art or aesthetic. As you were saying; they were anti-art or anti-aesthetic. Certainly they were not looking at 'art' in the sense of creating some kind of a fixture. I think that this is what was so radical about that music and an historical opening, a totally new way of looking at how music could be done. Musicians from that time talk about music outside of the realm of the relic status that folks who come later tend to think of it, folks for whom it has become a kind of religion. We tend to look back and see music in an aesthetic sense. But I don't think that that was what Beethoven or Mahler were after in their symphonic works, nor Coltrane, Dolphy and Coleman. It is only the way those who come after have to look at it after it's done.

[Steamer]

Well My take on it is very simple Coltrane and Dolphy were simply hearing where they wanted to take the music based on an evolved and searching approach in regards to the music which led up to the direction they took which is not anti-music but pure self expression for the quest of searching for new sounds and musical/emotional ground. For sure you can hear this in Coltrane's playing in his entire output as a player and improviser from his beginnings to the final recordings. Always searching for a new expression and sound or emotion and never staying fixed or staying put in one safe spot. Many are threatened by this approach because you can't neatly put it in a box and put a handle or label on it. In other words the fear of change and the unknown.

True jazz art now and back then is about listening, stretching and taking chances and being real and immediate and on the spot and being honest in that expression without too much overly questioning,self editing and thinking to impair the clear route of improvisation well it's happening to see where it may go. You have a concept and an idea, you hear a sound in your head and you put it through the instrument. It may work or it may not but you took the chance to see what might come of it all in the end good,bad, wart's and all. It's music you challenge yourself, the other musicians, the music, you take chances to see what happens... without this process nothing new happens only an endless repeating of the same old musical vocabulary your comforable and feel "safe" within...


Love or hate Picasso he was the same type of "artist" without a doubt.

[Deltadrummer]

Like you said, that's it in a nutshell.

I remember reading an interview years ago with Louie Armstrong where he said that in the early days, he played so much that the songs were not improvised after a while. Playing night after night, he found what worked. I think that even the idea of exploration can become cliche, and I have sat in on nights where guys are playing and it just sounds like they're making it up as they go along. I would wonder of that is part of the genius of guys like Coltrane and Dolphy. They get to a point where it is exploration and not just "making it up as you go along." Are they in touch with some stream of musical creativity, Streamer? :)

[volvoguy]

Although I am sure we are both in complete agreeance of the undeniable greatness of John Coltrane throughout his entire life as a musician and as a person, I must nevertheless say that I do think his music at that time could legitimately be classified as a type of anti-music or anti-art (both completely valid forms of art if you ask me). Why you ask? Trane and guys like Dolphy and Coleman, to mention a few, had a very surreal element to their playing, as well as an extremely organic style which some could even interpret as anti-capitalist in nature (Dolphy's playing is not exactly music for the masses). Furthermore, these artists ventured deeply into intentional dissonance and atonality, which in my opinion brought a definitive dada aesthetic to the music as a whole. I speculate that these aforementioned developments in their playing were a reflection of living in the USA in the 1960's and being african-american, not to mention being an artist living within an industrial society.


Um. What the hell (exactly) are you saying? The word "agreeance" is awesome, BTW.

-Ryan

[Steamer]

Like you said, that's it in a nutshell.

I remember reading an interview years ago with Louie Armstrong where he said that in the early days, he played so much that the songs were not improvised after a while. Playing night after night, he found what worked. I think that even the idea of exploration can become cliche, and I have sat in on nights where guys are playing and it just sounds like they're making it up as they go along. I would wonder of that is part of the genius of guys like Coltrane and Dolphy. They get to a point where it is exploration and not just "making it up as you go along." Are they in touch with some stream of musical creativity, Streamer? :)

There's a word for for it Deltadrummer that you college educators would know:} It's ties into the process of creative consciousness and endless flow ... almost a zen like meditative state in a musical improvisational setting. Just can't remember the specific word for it.

Jack Dejohnette mentioned this "state" and mental process going on regarding improvisation in a interview once that made perfect sense they way he put it at the time.

Zakir Hussian appears to be in this "state" everytime I hear him sitting behind his tablas:}

[volvoguy]

Like you said, that's it in a nutshell.

I remember reading an interview years ago with Louie Armstrong where he said that in the early days, he played so much that the songs were not improvised after a while. Playing night after night, he found what worked. I think that even the idea of exploration can become cliche, and I have sat in on nights where guys are playing and it just sounds like they're making it up as they go along. I would wonder of that is part of the genius of guys like Coltrane and Dolphy. They get to a point where it is exploration and not just "making it up as you go along." Are they in touch with some stream of musical creativity, Streamer? :)

I dunno if it's exactly "exploration"... The great explorers found the America's (even though the indians had not lost them - Garrison Keillor), we don't revisit the America's and say, "Wow. That just really good. You went west.... and ran aground."

"Exploration" implies finding something. Once it's found, its found... 40 years later you don't say, "Holy Crap! Stuff that works!" That's the thing about Coltrane (and his quartet/quintet): It's timeless. The term "exploration" doesn't really apply. It's something completely and totally (pardon the pun) "spiritual". Perhaps even transcendental. Maybe that *is* exploration.... but not necessarily in music... that's exploration in something more primal.

-Ryan

[Deltadrummer]

You managed to pick the two words I was trying to stay away from, "transcendental" and "spiritual." :)

"Transcendental" has an aesthetic and philosophical connotation. "Spiritual" has a religious one to it.

[aydee]

You managed to pick the two words I was trying to stay away from, "transcendental" and "spiritual." :)


How about transmorgification? Where is Jeff Indyke when you need him..

Stan,

Zakir & Jack get hotwired to the spirits of the universe, their minds & bodies get taken over by alien powers and then what they play is not their own.. they are just the conducters..

more zen anyone?

[Steamer]

How about transmorgification? Where is Jeff Indyke when you need him..

Stan,

Zakir & Jack get hotwired to the spirits of the universe, their minds & bodies get taken over by alien powers and then what they play is not their own.. they are just the conducters..

more zen anyone?


Boy this going in an interesting direction aydee?

The word i'm trying to come up with describes the uninterrupted creative flow of consciousness/ideas. experienced by painters, musicians,writers {not jazz writers:} } etc.. on a serious note without trying to sound like new age kind of guy :}

[jay norem]

Man I don't know about all this other-worldly spiritual stuff.
When I play I'm just playing the music I play. Just like any drummer.
Just because it's jazz doesn't mean there's some higher power or something involved. It's just drumming, isn't it?

[Steamer]

Man I don't know about all this other-worldly spiritual stuff.
When I play I'm just playing the music I play. Just like any drummer.
Just because it's jazz doesn't mean there's some higher power or something involved. It's just drumming, isn't it?


Of coarse not but the train of thought and state that certainly takes place in the action of playing on the spot improvising and a flow of ideas related to that process seems to have been completely derailed at this point now. Brian Blade talkes about this too in the the new MD interview about being "connected" to the music in a certain special way without "thinking" about what your actually playing. So much for a serious discussion and possibly learning something of value in the process.

I'll retire now to reading my tea leaves...

[aydee]

Boy this going in an interesting direction aydee?

The word i'm trying to come up with describes the creative flow of consciousness/ideas. experienced by painters, musicians,writers {not jazz writers:} } etc.. on a serious note.

I could'nt agree more, Stan. I, on occasion have been a Zakir groupie. I've hung with him through an afternoon shopping spree in Manhattan, met up with old friends in a cafe, exchanging ribald jokes etc etc.. regular guys doing regular things
..all the way through to the evening gig.

Suddenly15 minutes before he gets up on stage, he's suddenly not there. His mind is a million miles away, he's got a glazed look on his face, people talk to him and he isn't listening.

Once on stage, he almost gets prayerful & very meditative. He reverts to earth for an instant, because he's never happy with the sound guys, so he'll adjust the sound.. and then back into the bubble..

And yes, I've seen this with many many great musicians to know that that's the real deal. The golden fleece of music.

Heck, I've experienced it twice or thrice in my own playing. When what is flowing out is kinda happening on its own, and its incredible... and its almost like you've got nothing to do with it.. and you are sort of watching your body playing this music, and you cant really believe it you.

[Deltadrummer]

[QUOTE=Steamer;446476]Boy this going in an interesting direction aydee?

The word i'm trying to come up with describes the uninterrupted creative flow of consciousness/ideas. experienced by painters, musicians,writers {not jazz writers:} } etc.. on a serious note without trying to sound like new age kind of guy :}[/QUOT


I was thinking 'trance state;' but that leads to transcendental and the idea the you are transcending, getting in touch with something that is above what exists but is already there, as opposed to where nothing exists, to get out of your own sense of being and create something new. Are you ever getting out of your own sense of idealistic self-awareness? Can you?

This is something I have been working towards in my drumming for the last few years. When I listen to music, I can hear what I think the drummer could be doing that would sound nice. But when I play it is a different story, and to enter into the objectivity of a listener detracts from the creative flow of my playing. When I listen, I am making aesthetic judgments. When I am playing, I am 'making' creative ideas. It's the difference between thinking vs. creating or knowledge vs. imagination, aesthetics vs. impulse or theory vs. practice. Einstein comes to mind.

[aydee]

For the cynics amongst us, a dryer way of expressing the same thing would be 'to connect with the music in more than a physical sense'. Physical being playing and hearing.

[Steamer]

Till I find the exact word I have in mind here's a great quote by Brian Blade in the current MD interview that ties into the discussion at hand and the process i'm trying to get at:

"If i'm thinking when i'm on the bandstand, I know i'm in trouble"

Brilliant quote...

[Deltadrummer]

It is about listening, isn't it? Playing in rock bands I found that I could never really listen. And if you have to plug your ears, you can't hear anything around you. That's why I got out of rock drumming. If you can't hear, you can't play, you can't create. Again, it's hearing vs. listening like Abe said, or playing vs. feeling, or perhaps feeling vs. sensing. I'm really into these dichotomies tonight. :)

[Steamer]

It is about listening, isn't it? Playing in rock bands I found that I could never really listen. And if you have to plug your ears, you can't hear anything around you. That's why I got out of rock drumming. If you can't hear, you can't play, you can't create. Again, it's hearing vs. listening like Abe said, or playing vs. feeling, or perhaps feeling vs. sensing. I'm really into these dichotomies tonight. :)


Yes indeed it is.

One more Brian Blade quote from the MD interview and it's off to bed for me . 2 back to back gigs tomorrow to rest up for.

Here it is:

"I want to make sure that the band makes a statement,collectively. My part within it is just that, a part of the whole."


Serious listening sure plays an important part in that process...

[aydee]

"What Passion cannot MUSIC raise and quell!

When Jubal struck the corded Shell, His list'ning Brethren stood around And wond'ring on their Faces fell To worship that Celestial Sound.

Less that a God they thought there cou’d not dwell Within the hollow of the Shell That spoke so sweetly and so well.

What Passion cannot MUSIC raise and quell!"

( Peter Kivy, I think..)

[rootheart]

So anyway here's what I'm wondering: How many of you play nothing but jazz?
I do meanwhile.. Jazz got me into drumming when I was a kid. Then I spent my drummer´s live to play anything, from blues to rock, oldscool rap, bigband and all that...rocking big venices, and small clubs, carrying heavy equipment up and downstairs. Now I´m kinda "retired" I sit at home, plug in the playalongs of Mr. Aebersold and swing along with goosepickles all day long as if it was my daily job. For me this is like chilling..I once was beeing thrown out of heavy metall bands, cause I did play too loud (!!!???)..Now to me Jazz is back to my roots. I´d love to find a Jazz trio to play with, even if only using brushes and comp/feel along to the piano player´s syncopation ideas, dropping a bassdrum bomb once a while, after all those years of doublebass blasting. Sometimes I meet with a guitarrplayer, and we jam like "let´s make some weired noice"..I have no idea what the hell that guy is playing, nore does he know about what the hell I am playing, but the common determinator seems to be a virtual, unplayed walking bass, and so it seems like we often get together somehow, creatively or randomly, playing unexpected synopations unisono, and it sounds like it was beeing written/rehearsed like hell by cool pro jazz/fusion/bebob musicians. It is all about nonverbal communication. We do record it and listen to it, but we do not have any intention to play like this in public, maybe just because it can not be reproduced in any way. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn´t. It is pure fun and a great workshop situation. Jazz somehow is "freedom": In fact it is like riding a harley: the feeling of beeing free to enjoy whatever happens on the road, e.g. randomly drumming weird off time rolls like hell, without fellow musicians to complain about, not being a slave of covering something perfectly or following orders given by a chart (which I shure did and learned from). For me, Bob Ross sucks, but Jazz rulez, though there might be a tiny, not very obvious common determinator living there somewhere like a Bob Ross tree, and it is just a spontanuous decicion to make it come alive.

[Alex Sanguinetti]

Back to the original question, I would say I play about 95% Jazz and 5% Brazilian gigs.

Best regards to all the jazzers!

Alex Sanguinetti (Munich, Germany)
http://www.alexsanguinetti.com
http://www.myspace.com/alexsanguinetti

[KLittle123]

I play jazz, if you wanna call it that....

[junkdrum]

I love jazz, but somehow I've never been satisfied with the level of musicians I could work with until I branched out. In Seattle there are about 5 or 6 excellent drummers who get all the decent gigs. I'm respected, but not in demand, which is the name of the game when working in a field as competitive as jazz. To add to that, I have a day job, a wife, a kid and not a lot of time on my hands. Dedicated musicians, who are scuffling for the crumbs you can make playing jazz get the calls, and rightly so. I used to go to jam sessions, but no gigs have resulted from that. Right now I'm happily working in a quartet that does some pretty creative stuff. None of it is in swing time, but that's cool with me because the world doesn't need another good-but-not-great bebop player.

From time to time I'll call up some guys I know and have a session in my basement, play a bunch of standards that have been done to death and have a great old time. Not a bad way to go really.

[Alex Sanguinetti]

junkdrum,

Very nice post, it would be nice to watch your playing, any videos?

Best regards,

Alex Sanguinetti
http://www.myspace.com/alexsanguinetti

[joseisfreshhh]

i wish i knew how to play jazz
it is the only style i have yet to master,
im working on syncopation right now for jazz, its not easy lol, but not impossible
ill be getting a drum teacher pretty soon though =)

[bobdadruma]

Wow! A Ghost Thread has been revived! COOL!

[dairyairman]

i never saw this thread when it first came out, so i feel like i can pile on now.

i've taken a renewed interest in jazz and jazz drumming over the past year or two, and it's been really interesting and enjoyable. i've gotten reasonably ok at playing it, but compared to the hot shot jazz players in my town i'm a nobody. i think i'd like to do some jazz jamming, but with who? i've never met another jazz player around here who isn't a serious professional.

[BigSteve]

Well I'm getting in on the tail end of this as usual.....I went to a Jazz jam session last night.

I am not a jazz player but really want to learn. Jazz does something for me that alot of other styles of music don't. And right now I suck at it. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. I sat in on a tune that I didn't know...most of the tunes were book standards, and tried to lock in with the bass player and hold down a ride and hit hat pattern. I at least managed that and enjoyed it very much. I met several other drummers and other players who encouraged me to keep at it. Very cool, can't wait to go back. I think now it's time to hit the "shed" cause after watching a couple of the more accomplished musicians it seems like I've got alot to learn.

[dairyairman]

i need to find one of those jazz jam sessions. in my town there are several regular blues jam sessions, but no jazz jam sessions that i'm aware of.

last night i did a recording session with a guitarist i'd never met. before i showed up, i didn't know what we were going to do. it turned out he was a jazz guitarist so i got do a jazz track for him. i was very excited! he liked my track a lot and even paid me! wheeee!!!

[BigSteve]

Nice dairyairman! good work!

I just found this particular jam session through a friend. And after going to this one I learned of several others. I think once you find some of the jazz musicians in your area that will lead you to others, at least that's what I've found in my neck of the woods. For some reason the jam sessions don't seem to be advertised....it's like a secret!

[dairyairman]

ok cool! maybe my drum teacher knows about some of these "secret" jam sessions. he's never said anything about it before, but i'll ask him.

[bobdadruma]

i need to find one of those jazz jam sessions. in my town there are several regular blues jam sessions, but no jazz jam sessions that i'm aware of.

last night i did a recording session with a guitarist i'd never met. before i showed up, i didn't know what we were going to do. it turned out he was a jazz guitarist so i got do a jazz track for him. i was very excited! he liked my track a lot and even paid me! wheeee!!!
I have been wood shedding jazz for several years now. I can't find any musicians in my area to work with so I can get practical experience. I was playing jazz with some elderly folks from a nearby retirement community for a while. It didn't last long! They were just to old! Death and medical issues took their toll! I did learn from them though.
I tried seeking out middle aged (my age) people to play with. So far, No Luck!
I practice jazz by myself everyday. It has helped my playing in other genres considerably!
I wish that I had some folks to play with so that I could advance further.

[Nugget]

Well, I'm trying to learn how to play jazz, if that counts.