John Riley Play-Along

[Maytridy]

Hey everyone,

I recently recorded myself playing along to John Riley's "What Is This Thing Called?". It was a challenge for me to play at this fast tempo - I'm not very experienced with up-tempo stuff. This took me many, many takes :p.

Form:

Head
2 chorus sax solo
2 chorus piano solo
1 chorus trading 4's
1 chorus trading 2's
Head

Thanks for listening and let me know what you think!

[Drummer Karl]

Nice tune. Nice playing!!!
I think you sound very classic, very BeBop influenced. Really cool!

It is hearable that this tempo is quite fast for you. Your swing sounds very buzzed most of the time. I had exactly the same thing going on with this tune, I thought it was fast and had to get used to it. Then reagrding fast tempo I`ve got used to "Out in the open" from John`s book. That`s much faster. It`s all about playing those tunes, after time you`ll get used to it and you`ll get faster AND feel more comfortable with those tempi.
Still I think you did a good job...

As for fill-ins I think very simple stuff will work well. Try to play some fill-ins with less actual hits (drags, ruffs etc.) but with more mental intensity. That could just be me of course.
Imagine to make a listener smile because of two strokes. The notes you don`t play in this fill-in exist for the listener (including you) although played notes might be the minority. It`s one moment in time if you will. =)
I found playing too many notes makes it a little bit stressy and too busy. Again, that may just be me... :-)

PS: Very nice soli. You left space and played very melodic.

I really enjoyed this tune, you`ve got a fluid drive anyway...wish I had that.

Keep that up!!

Karl

[tak22thegoat]

Hey,
Great job you did there! As Karl said, the fill ins could be simpler, but that just might be me and Karl =] I loved the way you traded. Your ride and snare comping was pretty good too. At times, it was a little crammed like Karl said, but overall it flowed fantastically. Great job!

[Garvin]

I gotta disagree with Karl, you sounded really comfortable at this speed. I think the fills in this song always feel a little weird because it always seems to me that the rest of the rhythm section is kind of playing on top of the beat (ala New York). I always come out of that section a little behind the rest of the band, but its hard to pull a pre-recorded group back- hehehe.

Your drums and cymbals sound great. What kind of ride are you using? What about your kit? I think this is really great playing and I was gonna put up my version until I listened all the way through to this one. Seriously nice playing.

[Maytridy]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Karl - I agree with you about the swing feeling a little bit buzzed. Do you feel like it has that buzzed feeling when I'm on the sizzle ride (during both heads and the piano solo)? I feel like my fast swing gets a little sloppy on this ride because it's so soft. I feel more comfortable on my dry ride (during sax solo and trading). Do you hear this also or does it sound buzzed the whole time?

Karl/goat - I'm not sure that I totally agree about playing too many notes in the fills. I know what you guys mean, and I certainly feel that sometimes more space makes for more musical drumming. However, I feel like John's fills are usually quite busy as well. I feel like if you can pull of the busy fills cleanly, then they fit quite well in the song - it's a very busy song. Listen to the sax and piano solos - they're full of constant notes. Maybe mine just aren't quite clean enough?

Garvin - Thanks for the kind words. My setup goes as follows:


Slingerland "1960's" era kit - sizes 13, 16, and 20.
Pearl Signature Omar Hakim 13" Snare
14" K Custom Session HiHats (signed by Steve Gadd)
20" Istanbul Traditional Ride
21" K Custom Special Dry Ride
15" K Dark Thin Crash
2 MXL 604 Overhead Mics
Audix I5 Snare Mic
Audix D6 Bass Mic

[foursticks]

Yeah dude I liked it. Very nice sounding kit and great fills actually - I disagree with Karl (for once), but I'm the kind of guy who loves textural fills, which don't alway have to be massively complex.
From what I've read about you're buzzing ride - you need to work on doubles, especially that snapping of the fingers. That's the key to a good swing - a great open/close technique. Despite all other techniques with taking it slow being the best remedy, the only real way to get good at fast swing is well to practise it fast. That's my opinion anyway.

[Maytridy]

Thanks man. You're right on with suggesting doubles practice! My drum teacher actually assigned me doubles exercises for our next lesson. Thanks for listening!

[Deathmetalconga]

Wow, great playing, very fluid and snappy. It seems like your ride was just tiny bit behind the beat. That's unusual for this genre. I actually like it and your timing is spot-on. I wish I could play this well.

[Maytridy]

Thanks bro, I appreciate the compliments and thanks for listening!

[tak22thegoat]

Maytridy,
I listened to it once more, and I guess I was trying to follow Karl's pov. If you listen to Karl, you can see that he plays pretty simple stuff but makes it sound amazing.

Listening to it again, I feel so stupid because, being a big fan of Jack Dejohnette, he plays many notes in the given space. And to say that it is wrong to do that is simply false. Sorry!

[gusty]

Awsome! I thought that was really cool.

[Drummer Karl]

About the swing...like foursticks said, practicing doubles (or triplets: RRR LLL etc) will really help to improve the "snap", using the rebound more effectively and finally helps to improve the quality of your swing.
I thought that the particular ride cymbals you played on affected your swing. Still try to achieve a swing which sounds comfortable and consistent but still feels good for you and your hands. Being relaxed is important!

The fill-ins...I guess there will always be different opinions about the quantity of notes, feel (how it`s played) etc.
I just listened to Jack DeJohnette today and notice every time that his fill-ins sound busy indeed. Many notes and some complex comping which has a layed back, almost "sloppy" feel (not meant negatively). Although I also love Jack`s playing I`m not that intrigued with these kind of fill-ins. When practicing I often try to find simplistic fill-ins which consist of maybe two notes but which feel just right in the situation.
I think the key is to make it sound "easy"...no matter how textural or complex you do it.

Like I said, that could just be me. :-)

Karl

[Maytridy]

Thanks Gusty.

Karl - Yea, I definitely feel like my swing suffers on the sizzle ride because it's softer and I haven't quite built up enough control yet to play cleanly on it. I've been practicing my doubles like crazy the past few days. Thanks for the idea to do triples also, I didn't think of that.

[Drummer Karl]

Maytridy,

have you already checked out Vic Firth` essential rudiment site? There you can practice with a midi-file playing a particular rudiment in different tempi. It`s marked as bronze, silver, gold, platin and diamond. You actually get a quite good idea how your playing matches with the midi.

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.html

Here`s the site for double strokes:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments/06longroll.html

And triplets:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments/05triplestrokeroll.html

Karl

[mind_drummer]

Really nice, you sound great and make the kit sound great too. excellent amount of technicallity in your playing, it swing !

What's great with jazz is whatever people says, you can do it in your own way b'cause its jazz.

[foursticks]

Thanks Gusty.

Karl - Yea, I definitely feel like my swing suffers on the sizzle ride because it's softer and I haven't quite built up enough control yet to play cleanly on it. I've been practicing my doubles like crazy the past few days. Thanks for the idea to do triples also, I didn't think of that.

You should be able to play a swing on any surface, even pillows - though I would deffo NOT recommend practising on it, but you get the ideaa..
That's not to say you should go round playing spang-a-lang on every surface like with the pillows, just have the snap really really, really, really, really, really, REALLY down.

[Tryitagain]

I thought the fills sounded fine... fits the style in my opinion. Gotta go with the momentum created by the sax and piano...which is busy!

I just got the Riley book last week. Gotta finish my Afro-Cuban book first before I get into it...can't wait!

If I can come close to sounding that good when I get to the play-along, I'll consider it a success :-)

[Maytridy]

Thanks man, what Afro-Cuban book are you doing? Is it Frank Malabe's book?

[Maytridy]

That's not to say you should go round playing spang-a-lang on every surface like with the pillows, just have the snap really really, really, really, really, really, REALLY down.

Yea, definitely. I think that I'm just struggling a bit with the fast tempo. Maybe I'll try to tackle "Out in the Open" next. Doing so might make songs like this feel much easier.

What's great with jazz is whatever people says, you can do it in your own way b'cause its jazz.

As long as it sounds and feels good :). I'm not quite to the point where my up tempo stuff feels "good" in my opinion. It's very hard to catch the nuances of jazz. Thanks for the comment!

Maytridy,
I listened to it once more, and I guess I was trying to follow Karl's pov. If you listen to Karl, you can see that he plays pretty simple stuff but makes it sound amazing.

Listening to it again, I feel so stupid because, being a big fan of Jack Dejohnette, he plays many notes in the given space. And to say that it is wrong to do that is simply false. Sorry!

No worries man, I respect your opinion either way.

[ethanos]

Honestly dude, you nailed this tune. Forget what all these jealous fools are saying about your doubles, theyre absolutely fine. I listened to your solo (Surrey With the Fringe on Top)... smoking. As much as I love The Art of Bop Drumming, all the play along tracks are very much on top of the beat, which is kind of ridiculous if you ask me since that sort of beat is more a characteristic of post-bop rather than straight be-bop. As well, your drums sound killer. Peace.

ethan

[Tryitagain]

Thanks man, what Afro-Cuban book are you doing? Is it Frank Malabe's book?

Yeah it is. The history and evolution it teaches is just as cool as the drum patterns. I'm not sure I can concentrate on it now.... I keep catching a glimpse of that Riley Bop book sitting on the table while I'm trying to play variations of clave patterns!!

[Maytridy]

Haha, I know what you mean. I've worked through a good deal of Malabe also. It's a great book, but I find the Riley stuff to be a lot more interesting.

[Ekim]

Great job. I love your fill at 03:08.

The drums and cymbals sound great with the 4 mic approach. What's after the mics in your recording rig? You got a great result IMO.

[Muckster]

YES!!!!!!

I thought your playing was great. To me everything sounded like it was meant to be.

Great job!

[MikeyOdrums]

I think a lot that has been said is how "that": drummer would have approached it. I thought you played with great expression and I thought it sounded very musical, and sonically the 60's era slindy sounded like a perfect fit. I heard a couple imperfections in the ride pattern BUT listen to some of that old bebop and I will tell you what you'll hear some stuff that is VERY busy and and its almost as if they are flying by the seat of there pants at times.

Again I think its very subjective and all the opinions are correct but there are no clear cut "this is the way you should play it".
Be you, let it rip, usually that's when you have the best musical experience.

Mike

[mattyfatty76]

I was blown away by that; really great playing Maytridy. The recording sounds terrific too.


Thanks,

Matt

[Maytridy]

Thanks for the kind words guys. I know it's been forever since I've posted!

Great job. I love your fill at 03:08.

The drums and cymbals sound great with the 4 mic approach. What's after the mics in your recording rig? You got a great result IMO.

Hey man, I got your PM, sorry I haven't been logged in for such a long time!

I use Cakewalk Sonar to mix and equalize my drums. I also added a touch of reverb. does that answer your question?

[CJM]

Dang, I would have liked to hear that. I can't get the original link to work or the one you just posted.

I'm up to only comp exercise 2 in the Riley book..

[Maytridy]

hmm...let me see if I can dig it up off of my old hard drive and fix the link

[Maytridy]

it should be working now. good luck with the riley book! it's really great :)

[Xalky]

I don't really know the song, so I heard it with fresh ears. I thought your playing was fantastic. I don't know what the original drummer sounded like, but he shoulda sounded like that. And...that's good. :)

[MikeyOdrums]

great job, sounds like up tempo swing to me! nice drum "sound" too fits like a glove.

[2bsticks]

Sounded great to me.Nice touch and tastefully done. Keep up the good work.

[Clayton_C]

I really liked it... great sounds coming from that drumset! My only complaint is that it seemed a little busy for the song. I have nothing against busy drummers (Jack DeJohnette has been mentioned, and he is in my top 5 favorite drummers), but the songs on the Art of Bop Drumming CD are all fairly straight-ahead, easy-going songs, not requiring much way of flashy fills or speed. Although it is worth a mention that John Riley does play somewhat busily as well on those recordings.

[Maytridy]

thanks all for the kind words

@clayton: I know what you mean...I think it's more that I don't quite have the control to ghost a lot of the busy stuff. If you listen closely, Riley's playing is quite busy on that song but he does a great job with accents, keeping the really busy stuff down low, unlike me, where I can't play fast and quiet yet, so everything comes through.

thanks for the tip!

[lochday]

Wish I could play this song as well as you did. Nice fill-ins, chasing and comping. Good job really.

[The Colonel]

Hello.

I see what the other guys were saying about your "buzzed" swing - as they called it- I would just say you're slightly behind the beat. At this tempo - you can "smooth" those swung 8th notes into a slightly flatter sound - that & of 2 is pulling you back... If I were to hear you at a jam, I'd think to myself "he just needs to learn to shift himself a little more to the forefront of the beat." - at least in terms of that (I'd think other things too: let's get to 'em!)

So yeah, besides the feeling of the ride pulling me back a bit (and there are few times where you seem to jump into a more "ahead-of-the-beat" approach, but they are fleeting - keep that going)...I would like MORE DRUMS... Are you a drummer? Do you like hitting the drums? Hit them. They make a great noise. They sound great, don't they? Don't be scared to hit them. Even in this very "bop" setting, I would encourage you to use the drums much much more. Those "fill-ins" as we're all calling them in here...*sigh* - they don't have to be "fill-ins" - they could just be "musical statement" - if you were stamping some more drums in there.

Basically - I'm hearing "gonna-play-some-time-on-the-cymbal-with-some-very-sparse-comping [what are those guys talking about DeJohnette for? I'm not hearing anything remotely close to that fellas...]-and-then-a-very-prepared-sounding-fill-at-the-end-of-the-phrase". I understand it's a play-along, and you know what's coming, but several times you play the exact same rhythms with the horn or piano to the point where the illusion of you playing with real-live people is immediately cast out...

The fills, and especially the 4's feel very practiced and totally sure of what you're going to play when and where - like you practiced the piece too much to where it's starting to become stale; and even if that's not the case, that's what it sounds like: There's no sound of surprise in any of the playing. It's polite jazz - or polite drumming. Those 4's are too polite - too planned out - too ...boring. Don't get me wrong - they're pretty crisp and sound *ok* - but just "ok".

And all of this is just a very enthusiastic jazz listener commenting on what he's hearing - I have no idea how old you are or how long you've been playing - I know nothing of you - so maybe I should hold my tongue - or keep going, and you can ignore or listen, and go from there. Jazz can be a trickle/fickle cold-hearted [rhymes with bobby ORR] and reading the comments before listening, I was getting excited about checking it out, but honestly, it sounds like a lot of ride-playing without much actual conversation with the other musicians - and "fill-ins" that imply that you've remembered the soloists' hits at the end of phrases. Sounds too "prepared".


As far as the technical stuff goes - the best word to describe your playing would be "crisp". Some crisp stuff going on there with the snare (I think you should screw around with the tuning and get a slightly less choked sound - think "softer" - just a *TAD* and it'd be great - and maybe loosen the tom heads a *smidge* - again, to get a little warmer/softer/smoother experience, but like Karl said - maybe that's just me). Very competent - very nice ability. Just would like to hear you using it a bit more.

Give me an edge in your playing - especially on the up-tempo stuff. This is where the fun happens! Make it fun!

[Maytridy]

hey great tips man. I really appreciate you taking the time to type that!

I think a lot of what you're saying stems from me being slightly uncomfortable at the tempo...something I've been working on over the past year.

thanks again!