Are the Days of the Drum Solo Over? [Archive] - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

That Guy

03-31-2008, 02:29 PM

I do tend to agree that the traditional drum solo has fallen to the wayside, though not completely. As time goes the drum solo is actually becomming part of the song in most cases today. The band backs the drummer, yet the drummer is in the spotlight. These days I rarely hear a drum solo without any of the other musicians playing. Don't get me wrong, they are still out there.. but not in the force that they used to be from what I have seen.

Times are changing, especially for drummers. Drumming is constantly moving forward and we are hearing new things everyday thanks to the internet. Honestly, I really appreciate when the drum solo becomes part of the song, yet its not traditional. To have a drum solo and the band backing you is pretty neat, yet not many bands can pull it off in a way that is pleasing to my ears.

Carter Beauford and the Dave Matthews Band do it well. I guess it takes the right guys fitting together to make it work.

NUTHA JASON

03-31-2008, 02:37 PM

we do a drum duet every gig. far from people heading to the bar that's when they crowd the stage. its got to the point now where if the audience is not responsive enough we do the drum thing earlier and from then on they belong to us.

j

mattsmith

03-31-2008, 03:52 PM

From reading some posts and threads on the board I'm getting the impression that drum solos are no longer popular. Drum solos were big in the 70's but that was 30 years ago. Times have changed. Today solos, especially long, extended ones, are considered boring by drummers and non-drummers alike.

Drummers like Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson are famous for their solos but would they become famous and drumming legends if they were starting their careers today? When I think of a Rich or Bellson solo I think of speed, incredible chops, creativity, and endurance but from what I'm reading, most drummers in this forum don't like this type of solo. It just seems like drummers today are becoming more and more like timekeepers rather the solo artists. So are the days of the drum solo over or not?

I think we're just going through a phase in rock and metal especially, where everybody is walking away from improvised anything in place of predominant grooves and riffs. I think if we were to go to a guitar forum this very second, there would be an identical discussion. I don't think this means that solos are dead at all. In fact I would be very surprised not to have somebody read this thread in a couple of years and say Man, stuff was sure different then.

Moving away from solos certainly isn't another stage in evolution, it's just a popular opinion that will unpopular again at another time. We drummers especially seem all wrapped up in what others think about us as if that's supposed to determine what we do. Right now the big drum forum opinion is how speed, technique and solos have ruined the world as we know it when there's no more of that now then there ever has been. I think there are just more people saying that. And again, a little later they will probably say something else.

See here's the part of your main statement that a lot of opinion people on forums like to leave out. When you say the very correct thing about Bellson and Rich:

When I think of a Rich or Bellson solo I think of speed, incredible chops, creativity, and endurance, a lot of people today want to leave out the creativity point because they want the crowd to believe that thats not possible. And nobody talks about endurance.

Look, has anybody seen a dip in the Guitar Center Drumoff? Doesn't the Modern Drummer Undiscovered Drummer Comp still require a 2 minute drum solo? Which youtube drum videos get millions of hits? And then finally, all we have to do is play a two bar solo and people cheer like they're crazy every single time.

We're not giving that up. I think that sometime around 2010, most drummers are going to wipe their eyes like they've been in a deep sleep and say What were we thinking?

Drumrunner

03-31-2008, 05:43 PM

I would never say that the drum solo is dead. I still see many good drummers and mediocre bands still doing solos. I think its more or less the band as a whole that doesn't want it or the drummer can't handle a solo. I do think the days of a guitar solo in every song are gone for now. I would rather see a nice 5-7 min solo than a 20 min drag it on and let me show you that i can hit every drum that i own. jmho.

michael drums

03-31-2008, 05:51 PM

I dare say...

if you'd ask ALL the drummers, that include a drum solo during their bands live performances, if the drum solo is "so yesterday", you would get a resounding...What?!! Are you kidding me?!! Of course not!

And I would have to agree. For instance, just for an example, it would be pretty shocking to go to a Rush concert and see/hear Neil Peart NOT do a solo in the middle of the show, that he's been doing for 30 years! Especially since he's done a recent clinic video on the "Anatomy Of A Drum Solo".

I believe there's more people, than you think, that look forward to seeing and hearing drum solos during a bands performances...live AND on record.

Solo On! ;-)

fixxxer

03-31-2008, 06:08 PM

slingerland755

03-31-2008, 06:16 PM

No doubt thatI love to see the masters bust out a solo. Unfortunatley a bunch of drummers just break out their multiple rolls for 10 minutes and it turns in to a bathroom break for a lot of folks. When a great player plays a solo he or she will have an intro, a middle, and an end with bits a pieces thrown in for color and texture. Kind of like a well written term paper.

zambizzi

03-31-2008, 06:17 PM

I'd have to say....no.

The concept of soloing predates popular music, so I'd say popular music won't ever determine what is "dead" when it comes to creativity with your instrument.

In the context of popular music...soloing will always exist in some form and new forms of music are invented all the time. Just as there as been a shift away from the massive 30 minute drum solo or 5 minute shred-fest on the lead guitar from 2 or 3 decades ago in some pop music...there will inevitably be a shift back.

druid

03-31-2008, 10:31 PM

I think the more people get into mainstream "pop" music the answer is yes. But in general NO. But than again that group is about chasing trends very often.

Bozzio has made his career out of primarily being a solo drummer the past 10-15 years or so. he has made soloing into an art form all it's own. Granted not everyone "gets it" but he is really doing some interesting things.

from my own expereince I have been trying to work on soloing on my own alot lately. I think it only helps boost your own confidence level. For awhile there I was so concerned with groove all the time that I kind of lost my soloing thing. Which I have to say feels terrible. Now I am much more confident about it than I used to be and really have learned to respect it and apperciate it so much more. There are alot of aspects to music that are pure BS in my opinion but being able to put together a well constructed musical piece on the drums is not one of them.

I did a show with a freind of mine who asked me to help him out. It was all hand drumming. So it was basically three of us playing set and Dejmbe in traditional West African forms. It was at a benefit with bands . We not only held our own but really had the room rockin and dancing and singing. it was a great time and showed me what is possible with solo drumming.

foursticks

03-31-2008, 10:47 PM

druid

03-31-2008, 10:52 PM

Since when was evolution a bad thing? I see drummers like Ari Hoeing doing something different to your traditional drum solo (with his pitch bending, etc.) and think - wow, maybe it isn't all bad afterall.
Maybe the traditional drum solo has had it's time, but there's always room for originality and something new, right?

Ari is a perfect example of someone doing it in a new and great way...and I doubt anyone would run to the bathroom while he is soloing.

I think evolving is they key.

mattsmith

04-01-2008, 12:14 AM

I think evolving is they key.

I think we just have a different definition of evolution/also: re foursticks./

For example, I believe the term we're really using for Ari Hoeings's playing is innovation. Being innovative makes you a creator of something new and special, and that's a great thing. In fact it should be the goal of everyone. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the drum set or the drum solo especially has experienced an evolution when new elements are introduced. It has merely experienced something new and different. An evolution indicates an identifiable advancement of the genre, be it creative or mechanical. For example the introduction of the hi-hat was an evolution, whereas Tony Williams' new approaches to ride cymbal playing were an innovation. The introduction of obvious independence in a way that it's filterered into mainstream music culture for all musical genres---evolution.

Double bass pedal---definately an innovation. Evolution? The jury's probably still out, and will be out for enough time for everybody to look back and evaluate. At present it's safe to say that the metal guys would see double bass as an evolution of their genre. Everybody else? Not so much.

I remember how people here used to try to make what I thought was a shallow case about how a drummer like Virgil Donati was another step in evolution from say Buddy Rich, whereas I saw that as another performing point of view.

I think we're all saying basically the same thing with different terms.

Michael G

04-01-2008, 12:38 AM

I don't think it is quite dead but I am disappointed with most of it, MOST not all.

Mainly just by how much the idea of it changed so much.

Steamer

04-01-2008, 01:10 AM

Are the days of the drum solo over? hardly... In the hands of Jack or Roy musically interesting solos with lots of creativity and imagination are far from dead in my view. Jack still continues to push himself and musical parameters of what an interesting musical drum solo can be. Heard a recent live recording of the group Trio Beyond and Jack's solo on one certain burning improvised tune completely floored me. No moss growing on Jack at this point in regards to still thinking creatively and not sitting on the same bag of old tricks when it comes to soloing.

In regards to innovation and evolution Elvin Jones contributed more than many in the development of group playing and drum soloing in modern jazz more than anyone I can think of actually in regards to developments during the early sixties in particular. It's easy to hear the countless players that followed influenced by him and to take for granted what he gave but as I always remind my students that before the clones followed after him Elvin CREATED and blazed the path with his concept that changed forever the face of group playing and soloing and sounded like noboby else at the time or after I might add to my ear. Same thing could be said of a then 17 year old Tony Williams hired by Miles Davis who again had developed drum concepts at a young age that again forever changed the shape and face of modern jazz drumming/group playing and soloing well still basically only a teen. Truly amazing fact when you think about it in my view.

Nothing need be a dead concept if you think out of the box and take some chances to be yourself and stick to your guns. We need more of that again in the current talented players ready to take the torch to burn their own path to set the new bar be it group playing or playing drum solos creating new sounds.

Guillermo

04-01-2008, 01:13 AM

Preferences change...

Many musicians feel that the GUITAR SOLO is dead as well... but it's not, it's the form that changes.
The DRUM solo, per se as in the "Arena Rock" concept, has become a cliché... the whole "Kiss Alive"-"Moby Dick" thing... but this is HARDLY new... this has been sort of a faux pas for well over 15 years now...

But the drum solo as in a meaningful, expressive rythmic piece to engage an audience or enhance the music, is NOT dead.

Many people thought art was dead when the imressionists came along... but it certainly was not... it was just different.

Citizen Insane

04-01-2008, 01:19 AM

no.. but I am mostly unimpressed with most modern soloist such as virgil donati, thomas lang, and joey jordinson. I feel a lot of solo's nowadays lack musicality, and are just a bunch of random notes with no sense of direction, but I am delighted when I hear solo's by guys like JoJo Mayer and Gavin Harrison. Those guys are musical aswell as very technically proficent.

foursticks

04-01-2008, 01:34 AM

Evolution, revolution, innovation, whatever you wanna call it. I s'pose when it comes down to it - originality is the key, which is easier said than done.
Gotta agree with Steamer on the Elvin and Tony thing (as always). One, interesting, thing I heard Anton Fig point about Elvin's way of soloing is the fact how he doesn't strictly keep to time and instead keeps a more emotional level allowing him to delve further into rhythmic explorations. Does anyone see what I mean, or am I searching too deep?
Matt, Ari himself has said that he got the idea of pitch bending from a different drummer (can't remember the name I'm afraid) and evolved it to become more complex, in the sense that he started playing tunes using that idea, etc.
I think innovation is a result of evolution - the idea of taking an idea from someone else's and then developing on it to make it into something that's completely new and your own. I guess we can spend hours getting bogged down in terms and getting nit-picky, so I hope that just clears things up a bit.

Steamer

04-01-2008, 01:57 AM

Yes but the great secret and mystery with Elvin was his development of poly-time when soloing foursticks. In the movie "A Different Drummer" about Elvin he talks and demonstrates at the kit firsthand how he can take some basic ideas in time and development on them using his poly-time approach so he is still essentially playing "in time" but with a highly developed melodic poly-time concept going on around the kit using 4-way coordination.Think modern African tribal drummer on a drumset. This revelation came straight from the mouth and hands of Elvin in this movie from the 70's. This always been the way i've listened to Elvin since he's always tied to some kind of time "root" regardless how over the bar line it sounds at first when listening to him soloing since he was relating to more simple ideas or the melody of tune being played at the time as a starting point or "root" etc... as a grounding point of reference.

Funky Crêpe

02-20-2010, 07:51 PM

the steve jordan groove solo seems to becoming more popular...just lay down a tasty beat for a minute or so and build on it

arthurk1

02-20-2010, 08:01 PM

Yeah I get my chance to lay it out during dance songs so I just lay down a heavy groove as to not stop the dancing. Nobody really cares if I can play some complex pattern anyway!

GRUNTERSDAD

02-20-2010, 08:32 PM

I saw saxophonist Mindy Abair in a concert last night, and all of the players got their shot and her drummer, Jamey Tate tore it up.

Davo-London

02-20-2010, 11:28 PM

So are the days of the drum solo over or not?

Let's hope so.

Davo

KBadd

02-20-2010, 11:41 PM

A nice, classy solo: listen to "Tower of Power Live and in living color" from 1976. In the song "Knock yourself out" Garibaldi does a short, sweet funk solo. Check it out.

Steamer

02-20-2010, 11:47 PM

Let's hope so.

Davo

Let's hope not..... seen Brian Blade, Jeff Ballard, Eric Harland, Jeff "Tain" Watts solo lately? Just 4 of countless good current examples to pick from keeping the art of enjoyable to listen to soloing very much alive.

Point made........

KBadd

02-21-2010, 12:06 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjW3Lgom_sg&feature=related

Garibaldi solo 1976

KBadd

thatguykalem

02-21-2010, 01:04 AM

In a way, yeah. The traditional drum solo is probably dying out. It'll most definitely return at some point, though, because of the great circle of pop culture, fashion, and trends =D

There is nothing more enjoyable for a crowd or a drummer than playing a drum solo. I like to play with the crowd a bit. I just start with a crash, and our singer fires the crowd up. I do it three or four times, and the crowd will cheer every time.

Then, I'll just start a riding on a jazz beat. I'll throw in a complex fill and head into a funk beat, full of complex fills. People always love that. Then, from there I improvise another 2 minutes of soloing. It's a hell of a lot of fun. Everyone in my band loves playing with the crowd =D

Pollyanna

02-21-2010, 02:16 AM

There's no reason why we can't still have brilliant drum parts that carry the song for a while. In instrumental passages any of the instruments can play lead voice, depending on the style and song's angle.

There will also probably always be a place for the kind of circus act high-wire drumming that was played to death in the 70s and is now being performed by the gospel chops guys. It's a spectacle. I think the time of intermediate level players pretending to do drum acrobatics is over, though. The bar has lifted.

We shall shed a quiet tear for the loss of those moments when the other musicians walk off the stage, leaving their regular Joe drummer (with accompanist technique) to go bimp bomp bomp around the kit for a few minutes while the dancers struggle valiantly to find the "one" for a while until they slowly drift off the floor to negotiate the order of events (another drink? whose place? on the pill / have a condom? Are whips and spurs to be involved? etc).

Meanwhile the drummer pounds onwards to the intense admiration of the two aspiring young drummers in the audience.

gary s.

02-21-2010, 02:43 AM

not over for me, it gives me an outlet that people enjoy (as an extra during a show)
I won't go too long into the solo ,short but powerfull and IF IT FEELS GOOD DO IT !

MikeM

02-21-2010, 03:11 AM

We shall shed a quiet tear for the loss of those moments when the other musicians walk off the stage, leaving their regular Joe drummer (with accompanist technique) to go bimp bomp bomp around the kit for a few minutes while the dancers struggle valiantly to find the "one" for a while until they slowly drift off the floor to negotiate the order of events (another drink? whose place? on the pill / have a condom? Are whips and spurs to be involved? etc).

Meanwhile the drummer pounds onwards to the intense admiration of the two aspiring young drummers in the audience.Ha ha!! Easily the best and most hilarious visual I've had from this forum since, well, since I joined it!! Bravo! Post of the week, that one!

dale w miller

02-21-2010, 03:34 AM

In all my years of touring & playing I have never taken a drum solo other than maybe starting or simply given an unrehearsed moment in a free improv jazz/noise show.

I think 80's have really left a bad taste of the solo for me. It seemed extremely self indulging and a lot of times unearned attention. That said, I have been requested by more than a few people over recent years to post some solos on youtube and I may just do that real soon.

DrumEatDrum

02-21-2010, 05:05 AM

Pollyanna

02-21-2010, 06:45 AM

hahahahaha.....

But you pretty much nailed it. Drum solos are only really appreciated by other drummers.

And this point in my life, I've heard enough drum solos to last me a while.

To be fair, I'm sure you'd agree there's a place for the rhythmic rave. One moment that will always stay with me was a party an old band of mine played at. We were set up was on a big, old wooden deck at the back of an old house when suddenly the power cut out.

Everyone's making noise and wanting more music so I went into an Afrobeat thing on the toms to keep them amused (I've always been keen on Osibisa so it was a great excuse). Nothing flash at all since I don't do "impressive", just a simple rhythm. Our guitarist picked up a cowbell, our bassist grabbed a tambourine and away we went. The dancers were jumping and stomping along with it so much the hosts had to calm things down for fear of the deck collapsing.

People love dance-able and colourful rhythms.

DrumEatDrum

02-21-2010, 07:05 AM

To be fair, I'm sure you'd agree there's a place for the rhythmic rave. One moment that will always stay with me was a party an old band of mine played at. We were set up was on a big, old wooden deck at the back of an old house when suddenly the power cut out.

Everyone's making noise and wanting more music so I went into an Afrobeat thing on the toms to keep them amused (I've always been keen on Osibisa so it was a great excuse). Nothing flash at all since I don't do "impressive", just a simple rhythm. Our guitarist picked up a cowbell, our bassist grabbed a tambourine and away we went. The dancers were jumping and stomping along with it so much the hosts had to calm things down for fear of the deck collapsing.

People love dance-able and colourful rhythms.

True, but that's not a solo in the context put forth in the original post.

I'm all for musical drumming, even soloing over a vamp (see Jojo Mayer for great examples)

But the whole sit there and blow chops while the rest of the band walks off stage...ehh...I'd rather the band just play another song.

Pollyanna

02-21-2010, 09:30 AM

Ha ha!! Easily the best and most hilarious visual I've had from this forum since, well, since I joined it!! Bravo! Post of the week, that one!

I do encores, Mike ... just pop a few coins in the hat, please :)

At most bars and clubs people are more interested in socialising than the music. Even most of the dancers on the floor are more focused on either trying to look sexy and getting their moves right; either that or they're trying not to look too dorky, and this dynamic tends to split along gender lines, of course.

I love watching guys who have been talked into dancing go on the floor by their girlfriends / prospective friends. They look about as flexible as a brick, their arms hanging down their sides and they bob and shuffle their feet just a little as they reluctantly try not to be a spoilsport. Then they take any excuse to lean in to talk to the girl (body contact mandatory). At other times, the guys smile indulgently while the girl flits around him, trying to wiggle her arse enough to get him aroused in a standard female display. This is at least infinitely better than the drunk guy who knows he has no hope of getting his jollies for the night and scatters other dancers with a flurry of passive-aggressive flying elbows.

It's pretty easy to see where arhythmic drumming chop-fests come into this scheme of things.

aydee

02-21-2010, 11:56 AM

Pollyanna

02-21-2010, 01:20 PM

Polly's uncomfortably realistic imagery notwithstanding, the drum solo will be around as long as we are.
There is a primal connection between the drum and our sense of being as a species. Some have said it has something to do with the louder than life heartbeat we hear in the womb.

So like it or not, the solo will be around.. to inspire, thrill & energize audiences or to decongest dance floors.

But Abe, if drums are so primal then why have I heard so many people (not here) say they think drum solos are boring? People certainly seem to like the heartbeat, but from what I've seen, they prefer it not to suffer from arrhythmia.

I think non-rhythmic drums solos will be around for time yet but I think they are pretty well gone in bars (excluding jazz and world music), and have gone the way of the extended guitar cadenza a la Jimmy Page and Ritchie Blackmore.

VedranS

02-21-2010, 02:10 PM

At most bars and clubs people are more interested in socialising than the music. Even most of the dancers on the floor are more focused on either trying to look sexy and getting their moves right; either that or they're trying not to look too dorky, and this dynamic tends to split along gender lines, of course.

Good for them. Personally I love music, and any type of art. Most people could care less, but I could care less about most people.

There's a difference between a drummer with bad technique, or even worse, with no imagination trying to blow chops to impress and an artist expressing themselves. Elvin's a perfect example, as Steamer pointed out. Arhythmic my ass. He knows exactly where the one is and the reason he's not stomping on it every time is not because he's trying to confuse the ignorant masses or something. I just don't think he's acting, while most of us, me included, are (when playing). I think it's deeper than that. This is all very foggy and vague to me, so it's hard to articulate, sorry. I guess I'm saying it's emotional, and even with my limited rhythmic awareness I can sometimes get "into" his playing enough to catch a glimpse of the swirly spiraling craziness that is his perception of time(s). Some of these moments have been absolutely psychedelic to me (while sober), where there's a whole philosophy or feeling of life that seems to be communicated through the playing. Elvin's not the only one that's done this to me, just the first that came to mind. The morons on the dance floor trying to get some ass wouldn't care enough to even try to understand. However, the fact that most people "listening" to music are driven by their next orgasm doesn't mean that beautiful profound art is somehow made less so because of it.

Off the top of my head, here are a few more drummers whose solo playing has been hugely inspiring to me: Joe morello, Steve Gadd, Danny Carey, Roy Haynes, Tomas Haake, Benny Greb. They all have amazingly distinct personalities, world views and ideas that are come through in their playing. Morello plays way pretty, with an almost feminine touch. Gadd's feel for time and phrasing are so undeniable, it sounds like he's telling you how to walk through life. Carey is another guy that creates a crazy spiraling psychedelia of time, but he's more insistent and extroverted than Elvin about it. Haynes' huge passion and heart are in everything he plays, but damn me if I could pinpoint where. Haake's polyrhythmic feel is solely and unapologetically for the purpose of sanding your brain away. Grebb's quirky wacky tension/release tomfoolery is freaking hilarious. That's why good art is awesome. These guys can communicate a world with the right bit of noise, but look at how much I've written and haven't said shit.

Edit- just read Aydee's post, and yeah while maybe the primal thing is what pulls you in, I say screw primal. It doesn't all have to be simple and boom boom boom and heartbeats, I like metaphors and analogies and philosophy and abstraction and thinking, all of which can be in a bit of drumming.

aydee

02-21-2010, 02:15 PM

But Abe, if drums are so primal then why have I heard so many people (not here) say they think drum solos are boring? People certainly seem to like the heartbeat, but from what I've seen, they prefer it not to suffer from arrhythmia.

I think non-rhythmic drums solos will be around for time yet but I think they are pretty well gone in played in bars (excluding jazz and world music), and have gone the way of the extended guitar cadenza a la Jimmy Page and Ritchie Blackmore.

I'm surprised to hear a Djembe girl say this, though you are qualifying it by saying non rhythmic. A peek at world music across the globe, any corner.. Kodo in Japan, Sambas, African circles, Indian tribal stuff can go on for days. Just drums, no other instrument. Every corner of Rio at Carnival time is resounding with drums.. for a week!!
The effect it has on people is general is also pretty universal across the board. Makes people dancy, trancy, moving grooving, happy, horny etc etc...

The idea almost always is also the same too, a repeating pattern slowly getting more hypnotic, getting increasingly complex, increasingly louder, and finally ebbing back down..

What Thomas Lang has done to our primal sensibilities is a different matter altogether and a bar is certainly not the place where I want all my husky pick up lines drowned out by some over enthusiastic Batucada player!

The death of extended solos I attribute to the birth of MTV. Who cared for the coda section if the babes were grinding into the viewfinder.

...

Steamer

02-21-2010, 07:00 PM

Good for them. Personally I love music, and any type of art. Most people could care less, but I could care less about most people.

There's a difference between a drummer with bad technique, or even worse, with no imagination trying to blow chops to impress and an artist expressing themselves. Elvin's a perfect example, as Steamer pointed out. Arhythmic my ass. He knows exactly where the one is and the reason he's not stomping on it every time is not because he's trying to confuse the ignorant masses or something. I just don't think he's acting, while most of us, me included, are (when playing). I think it's deeper than that. This is all very foggy and vague to me, so it's hard to articulate, sorry. I guess I'm saying it's emotional, and even with my limited rhythmic awareness I can sometimes get "into" his playing enough to catch a glimpse of the swirly spiraling craziness that is his perception of time(s). Some of these moments have been absolutely psychedelic to me (while sober), where there's a whole philosophy or feeling of life that seems to be communicated through the playing. Elvin's not the only one that's done this to me, just the first that came to mind. The morons on the dance floor trying to get some ass wouldn't care enough to even try to understand. However, the fact that most people "listening" to music are driven by their next orgasm doesn't mean that beautiful profound art is somehow made less so because of it.

Off the top of my head, here are a few more drummers whose solo playing has been hugely inspiring to me: Joe morello, Steve Gadd, Danny Carey, Roy Haynes, Tomas Haake, Benny Greb. They all have amazingly distinct personalities, world views and ideas that are come through in their playing. Morello plays way pretty, with an almost feminine touch. Gadd's feel for time and phrasing are so undeniable, it sounds like he's telling you how to walk through life. Carey is another guy that creates a crazy spiraling psychedelia of time, but he's more insistent and extroverted than Elvin about it. Haynes' huge passion and heart are in everything he plays, but damn me if I could pinpoint where. Haake's polyrhythmic feel is solely and unapologetically for the purpose of sanding your brain away. Grebb's quirky wacky tension/release tomfoolery is freaking hilarious. That's why good art is awesome. These guys can communicate a world with the right bit of noise, but look at how much I've written and haven't said shit.

Edit- just read Aydee's post, and yeah while maybe the primal thing is what pulls you in, I say screw primal. It doesn't all have to be simple and boom boom boom and heartbeats, I like metaphors and analogies and philosophy and abstraction and thinking, all of which can be in a bit of drumming.

Nice post.... pretty much nails the subject of rhythm and the subject of drum solos on a bigger scale than your local dive pub and what you can do with it on a deeper level of application if you put your mind to it and allow your ears to take other approaches and forms of expression in.

Just played in a project with a Canadian ensemble of percussionist with an amazing percussion ensemble from France called Transe Expresse for Vancouver 2010 for the Olympics and i'll tell you these guys and one lady were ALL about rhythm and groove and syncopation on a very high level, some serious heavy players believe me. Some of the stuff they played was so displaced using syncopation and forms of phrasing with playing behind and in front of the beat that you had no clear reference point of where ONE was but the internal groove and time feel was unmovable during their performances we collaborated {and rehearsed for hours/days} on to get on the same page.

For someone as experienced as me it even presented a challenge and learning curve to understand how they could use finer elements of syncopation and phrasing in a drum ensemble setting to dig deeper into rhythm and solo drum elements in a tight ensemble groove oriented setting.

You DON'T have to hammer out the ONE folks in a basic primitive way only in the big world that is music to create effective drum solos and musical ensemble drum music that can be both challenging and abstract well still grooving hard within it on a enjoyable but deeper level in the wonderful world of rhythm.......

Drums101

02-21-2010, 07:13 PM

I'm really not a fan of drum solos that are just all chops. A lot of metal drummers seem to do that. I like solos by Stanton Moore because there easy to listen to and sound great. Also, other jazz drummers like Elvin Jones have good solos. But, I have never been a big fan of drum solos.

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 01:14 AM

I think there are some pretty clear patterns in these kinds of threads. To start, I don't think I or anyone else is advocating that jazz or prog drummers clearly iterate the One in their solos in the same way that in an ideal world I don't feel I need to clearly reiterate my initial thoughts to provide context for my subsequent comments:

There's no reason why we can't still have brilliant drum parts that carry the song for a while. In instrumental passages any of the instruments can play lead voice, depending on the style and song's angle.

There will also probably always be a place for the kind of circus act high-wire drumming that was played to death in the 70s and is now being performed by the gospel chops guys. It's a spectacle. I think the time of intermediate level players pretending to do drum acrobatics is over, though. The bar has lifted.

We do best to be clear with our genres because the expectations of jazz and rock'n'roll audiences - art music and folk music - are different. Jazz crowds will find constant interation of the One to be too obvious, like speaking slowly to make sure the other person understands. Rock'n'roll shows are less cerebral and a more physical affairs and that visceral "heartbeat" aspect is much more important.

However, an extended drum cadenza by a brilliant drummer is often appreciated in live music because it's exciting and uplifting. An extended drum solo by a pretty good drummer because "it's the done thing" - where you can see it coming and the other musos clear off for a drink, is generally a drag. In that context it's just going to be a repository for the chops the drummer doesn't get to use in the songs.

If a drum solo isn't compelling enough to keep the other band members interested in staying to watch and listen, it's likely to be one of those things where I, for one (not to mention the dancers), will be sitting through and waiting for the music to start up again.

Drums101

02-22-2010, 01:22 AM

To start, I don't think I or anyone else is advocating that jazz or prog drummers clearly iterate the One in their solos in the same way that in an ideal world I don't feel I need to clearly reiterate my initial thoughts to provide context for my subsequent comments

What?????????????????????????????

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 01:28 AM

What?????????????????????????????

Ok, I'll say it again:

To start, I don't think I or anyone else is advocating that jazz or prog drummers clearly iterate the One in their solos in the same way that in an ideal world I don't feel I need to clearly reiterate my initial thoughts to provide context for my subsequent comments

:)

Steamer

02-22-2010, 01:30 AM

Drums101

02-22-2010, 01:32 AM

Ok, I'll say it again:

To start, I don't think I or anyone else is advocating that jazz or prog drummers clearly iterate the One in their solos in the same way that in an ideal world I don't feel I need to clearly reiterate my initial thoughts to provide context for my subsequent comments

:)

Could you please reword it or something?

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 01:52 AM

Could you please reword it or something?

Ok :) It's about matching the sophistication of the message sent and message recieved. Emphasising the One in art music is thought of as too obvious and fails to take advantage of the opportunity to create tension - although it can be good as a stylistic device.There are no absolute rules in music, just trends.

My point was that, in a forum, what we say is in the context of our first post on a thread. So, if I say "This applies to popular music, not art music" in my first post then if I later say "You have to iterate the One" I'm still talking about popular music. I've listened to a wide range of music for many years and I'm not naive enough to suggest that art music practitioners need to be basic. So I don't think I have to say "this applies to popular music" again. It would be too obvious.

In the same way, I don't expect Tolstoy to limit his writing to "I throw the ball. See Spot run. Spot has the ball. Spot runs with the ball. The ball is in his mouth. Look! Spot is slobbering! The ball is now yukky! I don't want to touch the ball now. I would rather play drums. Spot hides from the noise. Good. I don't want his slobber around me".

That's like always iterating the One :)

Hopefully the issue is now irredeemably confused :) Boogie on!

Steamer

02-22-2010, 01:58 AM

Ok :) It's about matching the sophistication of the message sent and message recieved. Emphasising the One in art music is thought of as too obvious and fails to take advantage of the opportunity to create tension - although it can be good as a stylistic device.There are no absolute rules in music, just trends.

My point was that, in a forum, what we say is in the context of our first post on a thread. So, if I say "This applies to popular music, not art music" in my first post then if I later say "You have to iterate the One" I'm still talking about popular music. I've listened to a wide range of music for many years and I'm not naive enough to suggest that art music practitioners need to be basic. So I don't think I have to say "this applies to popular music" again. It would be too obvious.

In the same way, I don't expect Tolstoy to limit his writing to "I throw the ball. See Spot run. Spot has the ball. Spot runs with the ball. The ball is in his mouth. Look! Spot is slobbering! The ball is now yukky! I don't want to touch the ball now. I would rather play drums. Spot hides from the noise. Good. I don't want his slobber around me".

That's like always iterating the One :)

Hopefully the issue is now irredeemably confused :) Boogie on!

See Spot hide the one...............:}

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 02:12 AM

See Spot hide the one...............:}

lol ... Where is the One? Is it under the sofa? No! Is it in the sock drawer! No. Naughty Spot!

Steamer

02-22-2010, 02:15 AM

lol ... Where is the One? Is it under the sofa? No! Is it in the sock drawer! No. Naughty Spot!

+1........................................ :}

Drums101

02-22-2010, 02:15 AM

MikeM

02-22-2010, 02:17 AM

Yay, Polly! That's 3 times in one thread - I see you've been getting my coins! Ha ha!

VedranS

02-22-2010, 02:39 AM

Polly, I agree with you about mediocre drummers/musicians generally performing a solo because it's the thing to do. In fact I dislike anybody doing anything because it's the thing to do.

Also, I'm not talking genres here. Just the few drummers I listed in my post represent a wide range of western music. There's jazz, Carey does metal/prog/fusion, Haake is experimental metal, Gadd did pop mainly, Grebb does pop, funk, jazz, comedy... Then you've got the greater world of music, from Roma (gypsy) syncopated melodies, to those crazy Indian ragas, African drumming, Electronic experimental music (not techno, think Aphex Twin), and so on...

All I'm saying is that art does not have to cater to the lowest common denominator. Yeah, drum solos may be boring to your average dancing audience, or otherwise they may be vaguely exciting in a visceral way to them. This does not invalidate its value, and I'm glad that these artists exist and that they do their thing despite it not being the popular thing to do, because there are people who appreciate it. If popularity determined the value of art then the Twilight books would be considered high literature. True artists have always created meaningful statements not by going with the norm but by "sticking to their guns" as Steamer would say and daring to create true, honest works that speak from the heart without regard to the fact that most won't empathize.

Polly, I understand that Rock, or general popular western music is not supposed to be art and that the expectation is different. I didn't mean to come across as combative. I just believe that art needs to be defended by the few that do care, because its endangered. But I want my art. And us few that do need to be vocal about it, need to support creative people and need to support avenues for them to express themselves. We have a little place here in Ames, Iowa USA called the Ames Progressive Office, which is a venue for live music, a gallery for visual artists and a place for writers to read. It's also a nonprofit and is supported purely by donations. The shows are free (if you're a dick). I don't have a chance anywhere else in town to see the amazing talent that is regularly on display here. We're in a cultural slump where our brush has been stolen by stale people walking in single file and used to paint boundaries. One of these days it'll be on the rise again but not if we all lay down and say "yeah people don't like it, it must not be good".

VedranS

02-22-2010, 02:43 AM

MikeM

02-22-2010, 03:11 AM

Polly, I understand that Rock, or general popular western music is not supposed to be art... Where on earth did you get that crazy idea?

I just believe that art needs to be defended by the few that do care, because its endangered. Oh please!

But I want my art. And us few that do need to be vocal about it, need to support creative people and need to support avenues for them to express themselves. Do you really think you're in that elite of a minority? Wow, must be nice.

We're in a cultural slump where our brush has been stolen by stale people walking in single file and used to paint boundaries. One of these days it'll be on the rise again but not if we all lay down and say "yeah people don't like it, it must not be good".No, YOU'RE in a cultural slump. Art is wherever you find it and the very best of its practitioners aren't usually dressing the part for the benefit of others. Maybe you need to get out more and open your mind to the wider world of art - not just the institutionalized, traditionally revered stuff.

I'm honestly blown away by what a pretentious, self-righteous, snobby piece of drivel this is. Almost makes me want to vote Republican!

Steamer

02-22-2010, 03:14 AM

Where on earth did you get that crazy idea?

Oh please!

Do you really think you're in that elite of a minority? Wow, must be nice.

No, YOU'RE in a cultural slump. Art is wherever you find it and the very best of it isn't usually done by someone dressing the part for the benefit of others.

I'm honestly blown away by what a pretentious, self-righteous, snobby piece of drivel this is. Almost makes me want to vote Republican!

See Spot hide the one..............

MikeM

02-22-2010, 03:22 AM

See Spot hide the one..............I'll assume that's an attempt at something clever. Recall the thread with the snob theme? There's the source of it right there writ large and in your face.

I'll get in anyone's face that tells me what I do (primarily rock) isn't art. FO.

VedranS

02-22-2010, 03:27 AM

Where on earth did you get that crazy idea?

Oh please!

Do you really think you're in that elite of a minority? Wow, must be nice.

No, YOU'RE in a cultural slump. Art is wherever you find it and the very best of its aren't usually dressing the part for the benefit of others. Maybe you need to get out more and open your mind to the wider world of art - not just the institutionalized, traditionally revered stuff.

I'm honestly blown away by what a pretentious, self-righteous, snobby piece of drivel this is. Almost makes me want to vote Republican!

Easy with the animosity, guy. I wasn't talking about myself or an elite minority. How old are you? Where do you live? Do YOU get out? Maybe it's different where you are, but like I said, there's ONE place in town where I can go to see and hear things that are not the "institutionalized, traditionally revered stuff". And this is a college town. Live music here is played in bars, where they're looking for cover bands to make people dance, or arenas with big time acts. Visual "Art" is displayed in coffee shops where they want flowers and landscapes. I get out plenty. Now maybe if your could keep the attitude and insults in check, you may have some points to actually make and we could have a conversation.

Edit- Oh, and Polly is the one that originally separated Rock and "art music", not I. I was trying to be agreeable in the interest of conversation. Yes, I've heard plenty of creative and inspirational music that falls under the rock umbrella.

Steamer

02-22-2010, 03:33 AM

Yeah, and you recall the thread with the snob theme? There's the source of it right there writ large and in your face.

I'm the furthest thing from a music snob to those who actually know me in real life as stated clearly in that thread but many seem threatened i've discovered on the internet by certain POV's that members express about having a strong passion for keeping non-commercial music alive but at the same time not "talking down" to the other guys choice of expression leading to the old DW "lost in translation problem" and "spot the snob" i've seen for years in return.

No progress to understanding or common ground for either party involved when this attitude based on lack of tolerance and understanding rears its ugly head.

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 03:38 AM

Mike, I think you are misunderstanding where Vedran is coming from. I don't think he meant rock isn't supposed to be art as such. I'm sure he's heard plenty of art rock and enjoyed some of it. I saw that statement as his shorthand for a broader idea.

I think it's more that rock'n'roll (the 'n'roll is important in this context) is a popular form and isn't supposed to appeal to our - for the want of a better word - higher selves. It's supposed to be direct, visceral and fun. I'm of the school that it's all art - just different modes of expression. Some of it touches u, some of it not.

It reminds me of the debate in this country about funding of art galleries and museums. I'm of the school of thought that these things are important. I'd prefer that popularity not be the only barometer of what constitutes creative success or usefulness. If everything is geared towards the majority then where does that leave minorities? A civilised society aims towards inclusiveness, not exclusiveness.

I expect 99% of DW members would agree. But I've met people (non-artists) who truly believe that popularity is all that matters. There are times when I want to read Anita Blake Vampire Hunter and at other times, The Steppenwolf. There are times when I want to listen to She Loves You or My Sharona, at other times I want to listen to Vivaldi's Four Seasons or King Crimson's Starless or Chick's first RTF album. I want those options.

It's a great thing if people have the chance to access high art - stuff that digs deep. Pretty sad if they don't.

Personally, I think most drum solos I've heard are dull and vaguely annoying and not something to uplift the spirit (of anyone other than the drummer, who's having a whale of a time :). Guitarists, sax players and keyboardist noodle away at home but play music when they are out. Ideally, so should drummers. So a musical drum solo to me is, in a way, no different to a standard guitar or piano solo. But those obligatory chopfest cadenzas full of ugly, clattering snare drum leave me cold.

VedranS

02-22-2010, 04:04 AM

I'm of the school that it's all art - just different modes of expression. Some of it touches u, some of it not.

I like this statement. I can see where some of the things I've said may come across as "snobby" and attribute that to an inability to properly communicate the idea. I think we may have different definitions of a lot of the words we throw around, which can create misunderstandings. Anything can be art and art can have many purposes and express a wide range of things. People also obviously think it's important, whatever type of creativity it is, as shown by Mike's reaction to his perception of my calling his work not art. And yeah, it's a mood thing, and sometimes I want to listen to Michael Jackson.

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 06:13 AM

Another thought to clarify my thoughts since there's nothing easier than having misunderstandings on the web:

The "See Spot Run" thing sounds glib but it wasn't entirely a joke. People generally operate on a far more sophisticated domain with our native language than with musical languages. We are raised with and actively use the former all our lives but most people have very little active experience with the musical language. So "See Spot Run" is perhaps not miles from where many listeners are up to in musical appreciation.

That's why "I love you baby" or "I'm losing you" or "I want your body" tops the charts over and over again. A more sophisticated listener may wonder why should we care that this particular person is suffering romantic joy or angst or is in lust.

As with movies, an eloquent artist will flesh out the characters so that people care what happens to them. Yet many people don't care - they simply identify on a basic emotional level ... not that there's anything wrong with that! (apologies to Jerry Seinfeld).

For those who want more than basic identification, we need a story to be told or to be taken on a musical journey, whether the musical language is simple or complex. You don't need to be sophisticated to tell a good tale but if a musician has the chops then s/he can take things a lot further - if the chops are used for that purpose. A big "if", perhaps ...

So a simple drum solo might be equivalent to:

"See Spot run. Spot runs fast. Spot is good".
A drum solo from a fine musician might say:

"Beth suffered from congenital paralysis below the waist and her only joy in life came from the stray dog she found. When Spot ran, the little animal's boundless energy and excitement infused her with optimism and helped her believe that she too would one day be able to run free".

The drum solos I think we're talking about here are more like:

"See spot's roling gayte as he perambles with grate dynamizm. Spot is gloriarse ... pot is glorius. pot is what make the world goo round; and he trvaells with grate speeed. It ruly is remakabl the extordinri tempo which which the diminuttive carnivour perambles at; SporrtySpottySptty! it blows my mind the remarkabl speed to which this inspiring aminal perambulatess—Sot iswonerfull. pot is remarkabl. And Fast too".

In my teens that pretty well descibed my "solos". Trouble is, the little kids don't get it and the big kids wish they didn't :)

MikeM

02-22-2010, 06:31 AM

Another thought...
HA HA! Yer a friggin' genius!!

Edit (now that I've stopped laughing): The way I look at the world, that post is art. It was creative, coherent, whimsical, and had purpose and dexterity. It synthesized abstractions very well and HAD to have been fun to write - which is why it was so damn fun to read! If you can play drums, paint, sing, or sculpt like Pollyanna can write a post, you're an artist doing art.

Art is alive and well; always has been; always will be.

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 08:49 AM

HA HA! Yer a friggin' genius!! ...

If you can play drums, paint, sing, or sculpt like Pollyanna can write a post, you're an artist doing art.

I believe friggin' idiot is the term you're looking for :)

If I practiced drums as much as I posted here I'd be going well. 'Tis a terrible thing to be a drummer trapped in a music journalist's body. I leave drum solos to the experts and just try to be reliable.

Bear in mind that a "See spot's roling gayte as he perambles ..." solo can be great fun with enough lighting effects, revolving drum risers and some cool stick tricks. As Aydee says, blanket statements tend to have holes in them, so it is with "drum solos are over" and "drum solos are boring"..

Music is like dating; you don't need to make a lot of sense if you have the eye candy.

I agree that art will always be available for those who look for it. I thank [Deity] for the web, for without it I'm not sure how we'd find the good stuff in these days of corporate music.

aydee

02-22-2010, 10:30 AM

As Aydee says, blanket statements tend to have holes in them, so it is with "drum solos are over" and "drum solos are boring"..

Pol, ..and as the great sculptor Henry Moore once said; " I come to nature with all her theories, and she knocks them down flat".

@ VedranS- If you think Latin/ Indian/ Brazilian, Ghanan/etc. music is mostly elementary [I]chiki-boom-boon- and- here comes - the 1- about to- hit you- in the face, then you are missing a rather large forest for some very bare trees.

Even though complexity might be a virtue in sense that it is evidence and proof of the pursuit of artistic mastery, it is not mastery in itself. Overt complexity in any form is a very superficial & inaccurate gauge of artistic expression, IMO. ( I say this as a jazz lover, by the way.. )

As someone down the thread said art is what you want it to be.

The eye of the beholder, I guess. ( Unless of course the eye belongs to Charles Saatchi who moves the global art market by what he buys & sells )

....

JPW

02-22-2010, 11:26 AM

Why are we dividing music into songs and solos, is the situation truly this binary? Why do some drummers hate playing drums as the dominant instrument in a song or part of a song? And how do we define if "the days of the drum solo is over"? There will be drummers as long as there are people who can feel the beat. If there are drummers there are also always the guys that enjoy playing their instrument in a "stream of consciousness"-way. So as long as I live, there will be at least one person who does that and I doubt I'm going to be only one. Or is this again about popular culture? If so, what does it matter, it comes and goes...

The more I think about it... I think the most anti-drumsolo-persons out there are actually drummers. Any other normal people value skill (and I'm not talking about technique now) and give credit to it when they see it. Drummers just bash each other with words like "feel" and "polyrythmic nightmare", normal people don't know those kind of things. But they value a good drumsolo and they know when it's not musical. We as drummers sometimes fail to see any of that because we are so wrapped up in our own biased world how _all_ drumming should be. Some of us just don't have the guts to solo, or the experience to do such a thing in a musical fashion, and that's ok, if you don't like doing it in the first place, why practice it. But to use that as an excuse and preach it as a norm is just biased ignorance. Non-drummers like solos even the crappier ones, period. Some forms of art are actually more like soloing than playing a beat, especially free jazz. But I guess that doesn't count since it isn't popular culture. ( I almost wrote "and make a lot of money"... but hey, again, normal people like drumsolos, they'd pay to see it, but it's propably the producers who are to blame for the lack of them).

And see how we are making a self-fulfilling prophecy in this thread. People argue drumsolos aren't important and they ruin good songs and whatever. People start thinking that way and after that line of thinking has spread there will be no one playing them and when no one is playing them anymore it can be set as a norm because "you didn't hear solos in that or that album by that great artist. see? we don't need any solos!". But this is just how culture and esp popular culture works. It doesn't mean any way of doing things is actually better than the other. But I will say this, and I know it's provocative, if you are producer who has to hire a drummer to play on a crappy pop song on a radio for the sole reason to make money, do you want to waste money on a really good drummer and get some solo going or get a cheaper one whose beat you can just quantize and the whole process is over in 10minutes?

BTW, Polly, while that Spot-analog is humorous, I wouldn't take it too far. You are basicly saying that we who like to improvise are playing a catching game while we are actually leaving our souls on the stage. I'm taking it as an insult. It's a bit missleading that english language uses the same word for "play a game with a dog" and "play music". My first language doesn't have that problem.

keep it simple

02-22-2010, 12:05 PM

Drum solos, discussions on drum solos, are all things I generally keep away from. Why? Because I'm not very good at them, that's why.

Very little to do with chops though, it's a context thing for me. I have great difficulty in expressing myself through drums unless I'm using them to create music with other players. How drums interact with other instruments is the fascinating thing for me.

I detest the standard (usually trad jazz based) string of solos thing with each player taking his turn to step up to the solo plate. Yuk, & double yuk. That encompasses the very "look at me" aspect of musician's psyche that I feel has little place in music making.

Very occasionally, I experience a drum solo that truly connects outside of the chops fest arena. A performance where the player has successfully conveyed his emotion through the instrument is both rare and special.

I can do stadium style clap along rock solo stuff but it leaves me cold. Hopefully, it's this type of solo that the OP is referring to and this type of solo that will disappear.

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 12:20 PM

The more I think about it... I think the most anti-drumsolo-persons out there are actually drummers. Any other normal people value skill (and I'm not talking about technique now) and give credit to it when they see it.

That's because we've seen and heard a lot of solos and the novelty's worn off. It's like coffee. If you're in a poverty-stricken village in Africa even International Roast will taste like heaven. We spoilt Westerners, on the other hand, turn up our noses at such inferior fare. Many won't drink any instant coffee, let alone the cheapest and nastiest brand.

I take it you haven't been to a gig and seen the dance floor clear when the drum solo comes? Does that help the band's cause? Maybe, for the sake of variety - IF the solo is a good one - but it's easy to kill the momentum of a gig with a non-rhythmical solo.

Have you been in a crowd and overheard people saying how boring drum solos are when it starts up? Three times it happened. I was a bright-eyed young thing in love with drums and I was horrified! How could anyone NOT love drum solos?

Fact is, some people like 'em and some don't.

I think the older ones amongst us have been traumatised by too many bloated, cliched solos in the 70s. It was nearly always the same ... 16ths on the snare with rimshot accents, shift to some boogidy-boom on the toms (invariably incorporating triplets between hands and kick drum), then take it down with a quiet crush roll (that's dynamics!) ... then building up to a wild flurry of stampeding elephant tom-tom boogidy-booms - complete with a generous dash of cymbal crashes. Finally there's a return to the groove or a stop with 1-2-3-4 to lead everyone back in.

If that turns you on, good luck to you, but don't kid yourself that most of us on this site are anything but slobbering, fanatical drum tragics, just as you are :-P We just enjoy different aspects of drumming and music to you.

JPW

02-22-2010, 01:00 PM

I take it you haven't been to a gig and seen the dance floor clear when the drum solo comes? Does that help the band's cause? Maybe, for the sake of variety - IF the solo is a good one - but it's easy to kill the momentum of a gig with a non-rhythmical solo.

Oh the horror if they aren't dancing!! Seriously, we come from a very different worlds. I don't recall ever paying for a gig to dance, I want to _listen_ to music. That's why I hate it when great band come here to Finland for only festival gigs on the summer. I can't possibly hope to enjoy a band like The Mars Volta like I was a herring in a can. And then someone starts a fight in a middle of the crowd. To you that'd propably be the greatest gig ever. But to me it ruins the whole _listening_ experience. I would actually like to go to a gig where I could lay down and close my eyes and _only_ listen.

That was the listening part. What about playing myself. Well, I play imrpovised as much as I can, of course as we play sort of post-rock / fusion type of music there has to be certain set of rules before we start playing and yes we have songs. But the drum parts are pretty free for me to create on the spot. And that's how I enjoy it. My satisfaction doesn't come from people dancing, or not dancing, actually I don't quite care if anyone listens to it at all. I care about the emotional journey we are on with my band mates and how they are feeling the song. It's all about listening litening and listening, not some primitive urge to rub myself against opposite sex, which is fun btw, but I can get enough of that in the bed already. And playing with others is sort of sex in itself too. =)

But I feel you are trying to portray me as narrow-minded whereas I think you are actually the one that hasn't tried to broaden your views by listening to something else. I can hear dancable pop tunes every day, even if I don't want to. Some of them I actually like, some of them I don't. But how many times a day do YOU listen to genres like free jazz, post-rock or fusion? And BTW reggae is very dancable and it emphasizes the Three. What do you think of that?

Just to make sure you know where I'm coming from again: I have watched my dad gig with his free jazz band for over 25 years. They rarely get more than 10-20 people on their gigs and these days most of them are relatives (allthough they have had big gigs but not in this country). They play mostly 100% improvised today. No one has ever danced to the music (except my dad's wife). So why do they do it for over 25 years if that somehow not satisfactory? And it's practically all soloing. And to an untrained ear (I know, I had really untrained ears for 24 years) it sounds just obnoxiuous noise. But when you start to actually understand, you see into the players souls (on a good day that is).

EDIT: One thing thing we can propably agree about. A good solo shouldn't be about diplaying tecnhnical superiority but rather try to comminicate something the surrounding music was trying to communicate, be it some sort of artsy emotional idea or just pulse to dance to.

keep it simple

02-22-2010, 01:39 PM

Oh the horror if they aren't dancing!! Seriously, we come from a very different worlds. I think that sums it up nicely. You're both correct, but coming from a totally different place. Drum solos can ruin or benefit a vibe in many popular music forms. If your band is in the business of getting the audience to boogie, then why introduce something that cuts the flow dead in it's tracks. On the other hand, if your band's primary focus is all about generating the best possible band vibe, then why would you care if you do something that doesn't engage the audience. Someone enjoying your performance is a bonus and on your terms, not theirs. That's cool too, but more specialised in it's appeal.

JPW

02-22-2010, 01:48 PM

I think that sums it up nicely. You're both correct, but coming from a totally different place. Drum solos can ruin or benefit a vibe in many popular music forms. If your band is in the business of getting the audience to boogie, then why introduce something that cuts the flow dead in it's tracks. On the other hand, if your band's primary focus is all about generating the best possible band vibe, then why would you care if you do something that doesn't engage the audience. Someone enjoying your performance is a bonus and on your terms, not theirs. That's cool too, but more specialised in it's appeal.

Yes, exactly. But usually in these arguments popularity is the measure of success. But that, to me, only applies to the danceable music where the exact idea is to please as many from the crowd as possible. The free jazz player doesn't think it diminishes the value of his music if there's no one listening to it, let alone dancing to it. So you can't measure his success with the same measurement system. So if we understand these things I think we can live together peacefully. =)

That said, I want to reiterate, whatever the musical context, the solo should be musical, and not "juggling"-type of act.

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 01:48 PM

But I feel you are trying to portray me as narrow-minded whereas I think you are actually the one that hasn't tried to broaden your views by listening to something else. I can hear dancable pop tunes every day, even if I don't want to. Some of them I actually like, some of them I don't. But how many times a day do YOU listen to genres like free jazz, post-rock or fusion? And BTW reggae is very dancable and it emphasizes the Three. What do you think of that?

JP, I'm not sure what you're responding to but it's not any posts that I've made. You check my posts through this thread and you'll see that at no stage have I dissed the musical expression of fine musicians.When I say the novelty has worn off, that means there WAS a time when it was exciting and new to me.

Nor have I ever played danceable pop, nor do I tend do listen to it. I've been a Bill Bruford/King Crimson tragic for over 30 years. I also enjoy all sorts of genres. I've just been listening to Segovia's Adagio and drifting off on the beautiful oboe.

When I started playing I was involved with rock'n'roll, hard rock and metal (as it was back then). Then it was a rough and ready R'n"B and blues cover band. Then some "at home" writing and rehearsals that come to nought - one original prog trio and then a new wave trio. Then I played in a few indie rock bands around the traps for about 7 years or so - some had time changes and odd accents. None of it was commercial music. They were all originals bands.

Then I stopped drumming for a year to create mood music on a sequencer. Then I got talked out of "retirement" to play in a covers band around the traps - rock stuff like Couldn't Stand the Weather, Most People I know Think That I'm Crazy and Strange Brew. Was with a Dixieland outfit at work for a while. That was different and fun. Then it was an original folky rock group for a few years. I stopped playing for 8 years and in that time I learned to listen to music like a normal person rather than with "drummer's ears".

After the break I played keys with a bad rock'n'roll band (they could tolerate my primitive approach to playing keys). Then I had rock'n'roll jams playing drums again for a year. Now I'm now in a lounge band (ie. not danceable). I don't think I'm musically narrow.

My idea of a good gig is one where I can sit comfortably with a drink and listen to great music. Elderly women don't mosh.

And I'm not trying to paint you as anything, JP, just clarifying what I felt was a misinterpretation of my, and others', views. We've done this dance about drum solos before and I'd prefer it not to get to a point where Average and Matt come in and beat me up again. I'd REALLY prefer it! Average and I got friendly over the joys of Vater Vintage Bombers and I don't want to blow up that bridge - lol

As Average and I had worked out, neither "side" was anywhere near as extreme as the other made out. Nothing has changed since then as far as I can tell. I just want to have a friendly, easygoing time, you know? But I also want to be free to express my opinion without heat. I also don't want to be misrepresented again as some anti-drum freak because that's simply BS. I've been a drum fanatic for longer than you've been alive.

It's just that I'm a refugee from cliched 70s drum solos and have been traumatised, ok? Now I'm kinda fussy about them. Being fussy isn't a crime. We should KIS and make up :-P

JPW

02-22-2010, 01:55 PM

JP, I'm not sure what you're responding to but it's not any posts that I've made. You check my posts through this thread and you'll see that at no stage have I dissed the musical expression of fine musicians.When I say the novelty has worn off, that means there WAS a time when it was exciting and new to me.

There's always a lot of misundertanding on the forums, and especially when some of the participants aren't speaking their first language. So I apologize if I made wrong intrepretations.

We should all have some sort of tag in front of our names on the forums that would tell people where we are coming from. But I dunno, we wouldn't have discussions if we didn't have disagreements. Some people of course can be a bit more aggressive in their use of language than others.

It's quite funny actually to realize how many times this and many related topics have been discussed and you always try learn something from them discussion-skill-wise and the you end up doing the exact same mistakes again. =P My dad told me to not bother with these discussions. I'm starting to feel he was correct. We just bash our heads together and no great insight are made. From now on I only say: "If that's how you like your music, that's great! bye!".

Pollyanna

02-22-2010, 02:36 PM

We should all have some sort of tag in front of our names on the forums that would tell people where we are coming from.

I refuse to be labelled! I also reserve the right to change my mind about anything at any time :)

It's quite funny actually to realize how many times this and many related topics have been discussed and you always try learn something from them discussion-skill-wise and the you end up doing the exact same mistakes again. =P

But we didn't end up down the rabbit hole this time. Just goes to show that practice makes perfect, eh?

Average

02-22-2010, 04:59 PM

VedranS:
If you're in Ames, you might be interested to see Shamekia Copeland play 2/27 in Fort Dodge. Its going to be a hell of a show. There will be a drum solo, thus proving that the drum solo IS NOT dead. Of course, the venue isn't some dive bar and it isn't ACDC.

Steamer

02-22-2010, 06:38 PM

I detest the standard (usually trad jazz based) string of solos thing with each player taking his turn to step up to the solo plate. Yuk, & double yuk. That encompasses the very "look at me" aspect of musician's psyche that I feel has little place in music making.

Actually that's not the intent at all in that kind of a conception of soloing within an acoustic jazz setting be it sax player over the changes or a drumming trading within the form. The concept is to challenge yourself in a MUSICAL way within a set of laid out chord changes or over a certain song form {if tune based} to create something musical challenging and interesting to express within it for both listener and player alike in a improvisation based setting. Same applies within other forms of music in a very MUSICAL way that include improvisation over a set structure or complete improvisation listening situations in some cases to create a greater musical whole. Just had that experience myself out of my usual comfort zone as mentioned a few times already in a percussion ensemble setting.

There is so much generalizalitions and misconceptions about what is being expressed in music especially non-commercial music that i'm afraid no common understanding or ground will ever be met when most base they beliefs on their own personal taste and walls of bias not willing to put themselves in the shoes of someone coming from a different mindset and approach to see what that view looks like.

Its a big world of music out there and soloing and drum solos folks.......can't view the whole world from the perception of your own experience and personal taste and preferences. If you do my advice is to take the time to take a deeper look what's going on first before passing judgment on what you're hearing..... which over time may be much different than what it first appears.

Deltadrummer

02-22-2010, 07:18 PM

I refuse to be labeled! I also reserve the right to change my mind about anything at any time :)

I might have you confused with someone else. But I always saw you as the neo-minimalist, prog-gothic punk, classic, jazzy-soul, hip-hopping funk-master. We'lI just call you Nu for short.

keep it simple

02-22-2010, 07:25 PM

Actually that's not the intent at all in that kind of a conception of soloing within an acoustic jazz setting be it sax player over the changes or a drumming trading within the form. The concept is to challenge yourself in a MUSICAL way within a set of laid out chord changes or over a certain song form {if tune based} to create something musical challenging and interesting to express within it for both listener and player alike in a improvisation based setting. Same applies within other forms of music in a very MUSICAL way that include improvisation over a set structure or complete improvisation listening situations in some cases to create a greater musical whole. Just had that experience myself out of my usual comfort zone as mentioned a few times already in a percussion ensemble setting.

There is so much generalizalitions and misconceptions about what is being expressed in music especially non-commercial music that i'm afraid no common understanding or ground will ever be met when most base they beliefs on their own personal taste and walls of bias not willing to put themselves in the shoes of someone coming from a different mindset and approach to see what that view looks like.

Its a big world of music out there and soloing and drum solos folks.......can't view the whole world from the perception of your own experience and personal taste and preferences. If you do my advice is to take the time to take a deeper look what's going on first before passing judgment on what you're hearing..... which over time may be much different than what it first appears.Cheers & thanks for the heads up Stan. You're obviously experienced in this specific area whereas my experience as a listener is limited. I can only offer opinions based on my own experiences though. Most of the jazz performances I've listened to that contain a highly stuctured solo arrangement have been anything but creative or sensitive to the piece IMO. Maybe it's the quality of performances I've been exposed to that's the issue.

I'm generally not one for sweeping statements though Stan, and probably have a wider gaze and acceptance than most rock focussed players. I didn't mean to imply that all solo's within a structured jazz piece are poor, just the ones I've heard. Perhaps I should have inserted clarification to that effect.

All that said, it's probably the structure itself that I find uninspiring. Each player almost waiting in line, taking his turn to feature his instrument, the tune almost relegated to being a vehicle for the soloist. To me, that smacks more of a technical excercise than an experience that's geared to the listener. As JPW pointed out, not all music is necessarily geared to the listener so the band members getting off on their performance isn't a bad thing, just not my thing. I like music, especially instrumental music, to take me on a journey with some element of surprise. The structured "everyone's going to take their turn doing a solo" thing is a million miles away from that for me.

Ah well, each to their own.

Steamer

02-22-2010, 07:29 PM

Cheers & thanks for the heads up Stan. You're obviously experienced in this specific area whereas my experience as a listener is limited. I can only offer opinions based on my own experiences though. Most of the jazz performances I've listened to that contain a highly stuctured solo arrangement have been anything but creative or sensitive to the piece IMO. Maybe it's the quality of performances I've been exposed to that's the issue.

I'm generally not one for sweeping statements though Stan, and probably have a wider gaze and acceptance than most rock focussed players. I didn't mean to imply that all solo's within a structured jazz piece are poor, just the ones I've heard. Perhaps I should have inserted clarification to that effect.

All that said, it's probably the structure itself that I find uninspiring. Each player almost waiting in line, taking his turn to feature his instrument, the tune almost relegated to being a vehicle for the soloist. To me, that smacks more of a technical excercise than an experience that's geared to the listener. As JPW pointed out, not all music is necessarily geared to the listener so the band members getting off on their performance isn't a bad thing, just not my thing. I like music, especially instrumental music, to take me on a journey with some element of surprise. The structured "everyone's going to take their turn doing a solo" thing is a million miles away from that for me.

Ah well, each to their own.

No worries... its not the structure itself it's what goes on within the "structure" be it jazz or world music percussion ensembles etc... that makes it musical and interesting for both listener and player. Its the musician with ears and a soul that brings them to life.......:}

paradiddler

02-22-2010, 07:35 PM

Hey guys.

Wow, yet another runaway topic! One of my favorite ones, actually.

Well, a lot has been said already, so I won't do much rehashing. Very interesting; I love all the different points of view.

In regards to the original question, my opinion is an emphatic no. I believe the drum solo is here to stay, and I'm very thankful for that! It's one of my favorite parts of the show - that is, if that's what I'm looking for.

There's the crux of what I'm saying. What's the audience there for? Is the drummer known to be an outstanding soloist? Do people go to the show expecting a drum solo? I think the drum solo definitely has its place, but I think it's up to the drummer/band to determine if their audience expects a drum solo or not. If they do, then by all means, it should be part of the show! If the drummer/band knows that their fans use the drum solo for a bar break, then maybe they shouldn't include one.

For example, if I go to a drum clinic, I'm expecting a drum solo that may not be very musical, but mostly technical. I'm expecting to see chops; if the drummer plays to a song as well, then that's cool too. But I'm going for the solos, and to learn specific things that I may use myself (or find out that I'll never play like that :) ). That same drummer that may not play a solo with his band, because the audience may not want to see one, may have an entirely different audience at a clinic who now get a close-up view.

Now if I'm going to a Britney Spears concert, there's no way I'm going there expecting a drum solo, even if the hired drummer is a great drummer. It's just not the time for one. And if they do decide to include a drum solo in this type of show, then they deserve to be abandoned for the bar break. (For the record, I've never been to a Britney Spears concert ["Not that there's anything wrong with that!"]).

On the flip side, if I go to a Rush concert, my mother and her brother knows Neil Peart is going to put on a drum solo. Not only do the fans expect it, he expects to play one. I, for one, am glad he won't abandon this tradition. Heck, I wrote an entire series of articles (http://theparadiddler.com/2009/02/20/neil-peart-solos-ranked/) on all his published solos - I'm that into them.

I love drum solos, and as for me I know when to expect them, and possibly when they're out of place. I don't think a drummer should play one at a show 'just because', but only if the audience expects it. The drummer should also figure out how long it should be, what 'mood' it should be, etc. Kind of like composing a song, per se. Solos are like songs - some are good, some are not!

I'm much better watching solos than playing them, so they better not go away!

druid

02-22-2010, 08:05 PM

Anyone ever notice at least 99.9% of people at weddings simply cannot understand rhythm at all ...and demonstrate this incapacity regularly by completely turning around the beat while clapping on the "Hokey Pokey"...? Listen for it next time you are at a wedding most people completely clap on 1 and 3 oblivious the fact it messes with the "groove" of the song...

that explains why people don't like drum solos....they don't know what is going on at all.

To me drums and drum soloing are horribly misunderstood....arguing about tune formats should not be the issue. Jazz soloing is what it is...jazz soloing and it's not easy to do at all and takes some guts heart and brains to do it right. In many cultures the drums are DRIVING FORCE....they ARE the SONG.....and damn if I don't love that approach. IN Western culture too many people take the "sideline approach" which filters into everything...less is more....drums are not music...pretty soon people are playing a simple bass snare money beat and acting like it is an achivement. So many people hear completely programmed nonsense complete with auto-tuner vocals that is the equivilent to a broken air conditioner rattling in semi- repeatable rhythms and call it "a great song".....it's hillarious actually. Watch ANY music awards show to see what I mean. The values are all messed up.

Give me a great musical soloist ANY day of the week. I see improvised material on drumchannel that takes more talent and sounds better than 90% of what is considered "popular" right now. People are eating the McMusic of the day today and don't even know it.

MikeM

02-22-2010, 08:28 PM

I just got done watching some of the most entertaining drumming ever that was all solo. Two words:

Benny Greb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRSvON87afM). (I'm probably the last guy on the planet to find out about this guy...)

OMG, that guy is hilarious! I'm not sure I'd want to see him playing in a band context! (but I'm gonna anyway). He might be my new favorite drummer.

Average

02-22-2010, 09:34 PM

IN Western culture too many people take the "sideline approach" which filters into everything...less is more....drums are not music...pretty soon people are playing a simple bass snare money beat and acting like it is an achivement. So many people hear completely programmed nonsense complete with auto-tuner vocals that is the equivilent to a broken air conditioner rattling in semi- repeatable rhythms and call it "a great song".....it's hillarious actually.

Oh man. I better not say too much on this subject. It can get real ugly real fast. Have to agree with your basic thought. I really don't care all that much whether some drunk in a bar wants a drum solo, or thinks drum solos are boring etc. What bothers me sometimes on the forums is when actual drummers bash the concept of solos and say things like 'thank god they're going away'. I'm not the best writer and sometimes when I have tried to say that it has come out wrong and really pissed a few people off. The fact of the matter is that there are precious few drummers skilled at soloing. In a lot of cases if you say 'drum solos are boring', you're probably right. Some of them I have seen are downright embarrassing to watch. But just because there are a lot of hacks doesn't mean that drum solos should go away altogether. Bad drummers shouldn't play drum solos. Uh oh, I'm crawling back under my rock.

muckypops

02-22-2010, 10:05 PM

I think that sometime around 2010, most drummers are going to wipe their eyes like they've been in a deep sleep and say What were we thinking?

Yawwwn.... wha? What was I thinking?

MikeM

02-22-2010, 10:08 PM

Bad drummers shouldn't play drum solos.Or at least they should keep them in their practice rooms. That said, there are a lot of very good drummers who won't take solo's. Stewart Copeland comes to mind as a drummer who's on the record as being one who detests drums solos.

I think it's good when a drummer recognizes his/her strengths and plays to them. Obviously, if you don't like the idea of drum solo's, then don't take one.

keep it simple

02-22-2010, 10:15 PM

. What bothers me sometimes on the forums is when actual drummers bash the concept of solos and say things like 'thank god they're going away'. Uh oh, I'm crawling back under my rock.No need to average, you're completely correct. Look at my post #68 for clarification of my thoughts on this. The only solo's I want to go away are the boring stadium style efforts that leave me cold. That rare solo that delivers the emotion of the player and leads you on a journey is truly precious and should certainly remain a feature of accomplished drumming.

larryace

02-22-2010, 11:26 PM

Plus if you're not a "spotlight loving" type personality, a big "public speaking" fear issue sometimes surfaces. This is something I'm still trying to overcome. The fact is, the drummer usually gets a spotlight at some point, usually with maybe 4 beats to prepare a jump off phrase, and in order to be a pro, you gotta deliver enthusiastically. So I try and do something to the best of my ability, but lack the "show off" gene that really let's guys go balls out to try to impress. For now, I'm happy with coming up with something that flows smoothly, not complex, with no hiccups in the groove, maybe a few little things you can't do otherwise while keeping the groove going until the rest of the guys are back in.

An out of time drumsolo are the floor clearing types in my experience, and I won't go there. Now if the song starts with an out of time drum thing, that's a different animal, because no groove is established until I say so. But once the groove is set, I really have a tough time straying from it for fear of clearing the floor. I look on the drumsolo as one of the things that force me to stretch past my comfort zone because like KIS, I think the drums strength is in uniting the band as one, and bringing order to things.

Average

02-22-2010, 11:32 PM

Or at least they should keep them in their practice rooms. That said, there are a lot of very good drummers who won't take solo's. Stewart Copeland comes to mind as a drummer who's on the record as being one who detests drums solos.

Wow. This place is a freaking minefield. Now stewart copeland comes up? Uh oh. Suffice it to say that opinion is divided on whether or not Copeland can be included in the pack of 'very good drummers'. I respect the hell out of him for jumping to composing. I put very little weight on his opinion of drum solos. How can someone take artistic credit for not using an ability that he hasn't demonstrated? Did I mention that I don't like using calculus to solve wierd problems? I don't like Ferraris either.

Average

02-22-2010, 11:35 PM

No need to average, you're completely correct. Look at my post #68 for clarification of my thoughts on this. The only solo's I want to go away are the boring stadium style efforts that leave me cold. That rare solo that delivers the emotion of the player and leads you on a journey is truly precious and should certainly remain a feature of accomplished drumming.

Agreed. Arena rock solos could go away and I wouldn't miss them, except that I wouldn't have time for a BR break.

JPW

02-23-2010, 12:33 AM

Average, here we go again. =D Playing minesweeper on the forums. I'm again glad I'm not alone.

Average

02-23-2010, 01:26 AM

Average, here we go again. =D Playing minesweeper on the forums. I'm again glad I'm not alone.

I was actually hoping someone else would take the beatings this time. Hehehe. The last 2 times I posted about these types of issues ended up ugly. I'm a little gunshy. Things seem to have moderated a little bit since but MAN. Talk about heat. Both times someone started another thread to thrash me. Thankfully one was deleted. I didn't read it after the first page or so but it must have really blown up to get deleted. One time someone posted a very graphic description of self administered surgery on his inflamed butthole and then freaked out at me for jokingly saying 'too much information.'. LOL. If you look up tmi in the dictionary, that post is quoted word for word.

Anyway, I'm popping the popcorn. Got some Milk Duds?

JPW

02-23-2010, 01:37 AM

Anyway, I'm popping the popcorn. Got some Milk Duds?

Ah, I just drank half a litre of milk. Just got back home from the best band rehearsal this year. And guess what? I played several solos. And it felt great. I also tested my new HQ pad when I got home and had great time with rudiments and the new pad is awesome and practicing technique feels like being home. It's a shame not all drummers can feel the same warm feelings I'm now experiencing. =)

MikeM

02-23-2010, 01:37 AM

Wow. This place is a freaking minefield. Now stewart copeland comes up? Uh oh. Suffice it to say that opinion is divided on whether or not Copeland can be included in the pack of 'very good drummers'. I respect the hell out of him for jumping to composing. I put very little weight on his opinion of drum solos. How can someone take artistic credit for not using an ability that he hasn't demonstrated? Did I mention that I don't like using calculus to solve wierd problems? I don't like Ferraris either.
Not sure why you feel the need to take a pot shot at Stewart Copeland. If you can't at least recognize his talent as a drummer, than I think that says more about you than you should like.

When did he take artistic credit for soloing? And why should he (or anyone) demonstrate an ability for anything they don't care for? Did I miss something?? There's a gaping hole in your logic here that makes me wonder whether you ever studied calculus (or passed it if you did).

Pollyanna

02-23-2010, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Average .
In a lot of cases if you say 'drum solos are boring', you're probably right. Some of them I have seen are downright embarrassing to watch. But just because there are a lot of hacks doesn't mean that drum solos should go away altogether. Bad drummers shouldn't play drum solos.

you're completely correct. Look at my post #68 for clarification of my thoughts on this. The only solo's I want to go away are the boring stadium style efforts that leave me cold. That rare solo that delivers the emotion of the player and leads you on a journey is truly precious and should certainly remain a feature of accomplished drumming.

Yep, I think we have general agreement that solos are best left to people who can play them as musical statements and those who can do outstanding acrobatics shows.

I guess the moral of the story is to know your limitations. It's hard to use the term "bad drummers" though because 1) it's relative 2) hardly anyone is a bad drummer in their own mind just as no one is a bad driver or a bad lay.

Spot hides the ball. Where is the ball? Spot is naughty. Out out damn Spot!

Drums101

02-23-2010, 01:44 AM

Spot hides the ball. Where is the ball? Spot is naughty. Out out damn Spot!

I'm confused again...

Pollyanna

02-23-2010, 01:46 AM

I'm confused again...

LOL, join the club. This whole thread is confused. The question was "Are the Days of the Drum Solo Over?" but somehow it's become "Do you want the Days of the Drum Solo to be Over?"

I also must admit that I was dying for an excuse to throw in "Out out damn Spot!". I'm a cartoonist. I have no choice :)

Ian Williams

02-23-2010, 02:02 AM

Drum solos are rare to find as teeth on a hen's peck, in nowadays.

JPW

02-23-2010, 02:03 AM

2) hardly anyone is a bad drummer in their own mind just as no one is a bad driver or a bad lay.

Erm, I propably continue to be the worst drummer of my life for long time. =P Every time I listen back to our recordings I feel shame, not pride. But I consider myself a decent driver although I don't even own a car. Of course there are those people (like in the start of the American Idol) who are completely ignorant about their level of non-expertise. But I think most intelligent drummers are actually too aware of the fact that they (and me) don't know anything and can't play. But that's just the journey. Journey ends when you know everything and can play everything. When there's no risk, there's no excitement and when there's no excitement there's no music. So I would stop playing at that point.

muckypops

02-23-2010, 02:44 AM

VedranS

02-23-2010, 03:16 AM

Wow, this thread has remained relatively civil, even though there is a faint aroma of "feel/technique/jazz/snob thread" about it. Interesting thoughts all around. Personally, I'm not too worried that the discussion has taken some turns since the OP.

I haven't figured out how to quote multiple posts yet, and don't think I'm going to right now, so I'll just kind of "shout out", hope that's cool.

Mike, yeah Polly's an amazing writer and has a great sense of humor and a way with analogies that are somehow ridiculous and poignant at the same time. Thanks, Pol. About Benny Greb, I've been digging him for a while now too, a great showman but never cliche or doing acrobatics for their own sake.

Hey Aydee, I've seen some Samba Batacudas and heard some fusioned-up Samba, some traditional Indian music (I love how the singers feel the rhythm and melody in their hand and body movements), not familiar with Ghanan music, listened a bunch of stuff from all over Eastern Europe (and a lot of that of Gypsy influenced stuff can be traced back to Northern India, and you can hear similarities sometimes)...

Anyway, I never said that those are elementary in any way. I understand the complexity involved, and also love the fact that the music has developed through generations of people who are intimately connected to it instead of having the contrived complexity of something like Dream Theater for example.

When I said "screw primal" I wasn't referring to your examples. I guess I just don't see that stuff as being that primal. When I think of the word primal, I pretty much think simple, right or wrong. Misunderstanding I guess. I see a lot of traditional music as being very sophisticated, especially Indian stuff. I guess when you say primal, you're equating it to some kind of deeper connection to our ancestral selves? I'm just not convinced that that's what the music does. A lot of western people (and I've had my friends listen to some Northern Indian music) have trouble getting into that stuff. To me at least this seems to indicate that the effect of the music is not based on some direct "primal" connection to our basic humanity or something, but rather due to the fact that it's so intimately intertwined in the culture and lives and history of the people that listen to it, so that it's "in their blood" due to exposure... I'm sorry I suck at explaining myself, hope this makes some kind of sense, let me know what you think.

Pollyanna

02-23-2010, 04:27 AM

Thanks VedranS. I like primal. There's a lot you can do with primal. I also like deep and fancy too.

I like almost everything apart from musical cynicism that treats listeners as units and musicians/bands that offend your ears because they can't hear what an ugly or cliched din they are making through the filter of their egos.

Erm, I propably continue to be the worst drummer of my life for long time. =P Every time I listen back to our recordings I feel shame, not pride. But I consider myself a decent driver although I don't even own a car. Of course there are those people (like in the start of the American Idol) who are completely ignorant about their level of non-expertise. But I think most intelligent drummers are actually too aware of the fact that they (and me) don't know anything and can't play. But that's just the journey. Journey ends when you know everything and can play everything. When there's no risk, there's no excitement and when there's no excitement there's no music. So I would stop playing at that point.

I play tennis. Some days I'm in the zone and on other days I'm not. Same thing with music. Still, on my best days I am still obviously no closer to being Serena Williams than I am to being Terri-Lynne Carrington. Nor am I as cute as Jennifer Hawkins, as good as Mother Theresa or as smart as Marie Curie. I don't feel bad about that, though - just as long as the music's vibe is good to me, the band and listeners. I am trying to negotiate a drum solo in one of our songs, but the others will be playing too.

Where is Spot? Spot is rolling in her doo doo. Spot is having fun!

aydee

02-23-2010, 05:29 AM

I'm sorry I suck at explaining myself, hope this makes some kind of sense, let me know what you think.

...

You explain yourself brilliantly, VedranS. Discussing music such an adventure!... Let's pin the donkey's tail; ).

I understood and appreciate what you meant the first time around. You described the innate need in most serious music lovers to 'hear' a level of sophistication in the music that challenges or tickles the sensibilities which, generally speaking, are more advanced in people like us, than say in the regular grunts who absorb everything as basic, uncomplicated background musak. I could'nt agree with you more. I too prefer Chablis to Root Beer.

My point in citing those examples was really to suggest that 'sophistication' in music comes in so many colors and hues, and it takes all of us- in all our diversity, to appreciate it in our many splendored ways. All of which are equally valid.

However, in this discussion, we seem to be focussed on evaluating one aspect of it, and by one yardstick only. I dont think you can evencompare same to same; A Jim Black solo, to a Chis 'Daddy' Dave solo? Two totally crazy guys doing crazy things on a drumset, BUT crazy in very different ways.

Or a Brian Blade solo to Ian Paice's Mule or Peart's Tom Sawyer.. or to what a chief griyot plays in djembe ensemble for that matter to a Zakir Hussain solo?. Horses of a different feather....

Or even where we might or not want to hear a solo..? In a bar? naaaww, no way..
Carnegie Hall? ...Maybe, depends, who's playing...
Killing time waiting for a friend in Central Park?.. definitely...

Generalizations dont really work for me at all, in music.

I do understand how we tripped on the word 'primal' though, and perhaps it got misunderstood as 'primitive'. By primal I meant that we as humans do have some universal behavioral responses to various stimuli, rhythm- and its fluctuations within- being one of them. And this phenomenon cuts across the cultural divide pretty evenly, IMO.

( This is perhaps a discussion for a different time/ different thread / a different forum.) : )

...

Pollyanna

02-23-2010, 06:35 AM

I guess when you say primal, you're equating it to some kind of deeper connection to our ancestral selves? I'm just not convinced that that's what the music does. A lot of western people (and I've had my friends listen to some Northern Indian music) have trouble getting into that stuff. To me at least this seems to indicate that the effect of the music is not based on some direct "primal" connection to our basic humanity or something, but rather due to the fact that it's so intimately intertwined in the culture and lives and history of the people that listen to it, so that it's "in their blood" due to exposure...

I agree with Aydee. There's nothing wrong with your observations - which are very good ones and highly perceptive. My only criticism would be that it could do with a few more paragraph breaks for screen reading :) (no probs in print)

Yet a significant minority of Westerners do enjoy Indian music - especially those who enjoy jazz, fusion and prog, which are more likely to exploit different modes, harmonic minor scales, unsquared rhythms and suchlike. That reduces the "jump" to Indian sounds for a Western ear. Certainly Indian music struck a chord with John McLaughlin and George Harrison.

How about this for a brain-bender? ... I would guess that liberal Westerners would be more likely to enjoy Indian music than conservatives. There is certainly a universality in music - ie. appealingly primal aspects - just that the universality isn't universal (ha!) because people's openness to the new and unusual differs.

To some extent it's as simple as the fact that some people are drawn to each other and some people will never get along, which makes sense to me since music is expressions of people.

Pavlos

02-23-2010, 07:02 AM

MikeM

02-23-2010, 07:44 AM

hmmmmm, where have I heard this before? I have a big deja vu vibe going on here. Sorry, I'm not following you on that. Please explain.

Steamer

02-23-2010, 08:05 AM

Drum solos are a bit like all-star games in sports (take your pick which sport). A bit of a novelty, time to take a break from the regular schedule, alot of skill on display but it doesn't really affect the real competition of the season or have quite the grit or impact of a real game.

It boggles my mind to see on a DRUM BASED forum not much love for drum solos floating around. I think someone else mentioned this already and quite frankly it somewhat surprising to see. LONG LIVE THE DRUM SOLO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pO87HdDGFY&feature=related

mattsmith

02-23-2010, 08:57 AM

Yawwwn.... wha? What was I thinking?

The year's still young.

You can already feel the change. Otherwise two year old threads like this would never resurface, and with the two sides of the coin objectivity you see here.

Pollyanna

02-23-2010, 09:10 AM

MikeM

02-23-2010, 09:18 AM

It boggles my mind to see on a DRUM BASED forum not much love for drum solos floating around. I think someone else mentioned this already and quite frankly it somewhat surprising to see. LONG LIVE THE DRUM SOLO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pO87HdDGFY&feature=related
You make it sound like no drummers like a good drum solo anymore, and that this perceived lack of enthusiasm for them somehow marks the end of the “good drumming” era.

There are plenty of drummers who still like a good drum solo - me included, but I know I'm not alone when I say that it takes more to knock my socks off than it once did. One thing about solos is they have to have some kind of "wow" factor; as in, "Wow, I've never seen anyone do that before!"

Solo's (and playing styles in general) are like jokes in that they're most effective when fresh and there's an element of surprise with a clever twist. Jokes just get progressively less funny the more they're told (no matter how funny they were at first), just like big rock arena drum solos stop being interesting once they become predictable and begin their descent into the cliché.

One reason you won't hear be complain about the fickleness of "pop culture", or the general evolution of things, is because of this hardwired tendency in the brain to seek new stimulus - like a new funny joke.

Same could be said for traditional jazz or blues solos - they're integral to the form, but the form itself isn't exactly new anymore and most people know what to expect. The element of surprise is largely gone by now.

I recognize that Tony Williams was a great drummer and was far far beyond where I'll ever be, but still there's an element of familiarity with the form and the vibe that makes his solos seem somehow less remarkable to me, despite his undisputed command of the instrument.

I'd be more interested in hearing what Tony Williams would be doing today if he were just now coming up.

I imagine he’d probably be playing with The Mars Volta or something similarly hip and groundbreaking.

Steamer

02-23-2010, 09:45 AM

Stan, if you mean solos like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5uROxVUkA4)

or like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BJkc0jtC94)

or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFvgCtomkqE)

or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJqhScdbo8I)

or this (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/brianbennettlittleb.html)

... then I agree.

If you mean like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8avgd-i9QGU) ... well, I'm sure he had fun playing it and his fans obviously dug it, but it ain't music to my ears.

Polly your killing me posting that Papa Joe clip.....:} One seriously musical smooth operator...timeless drum artistry.

I hear what you're saying Mike but I still got the tingles watching that Tony clip yet again. His level of intent and musicianship still gives me the shivers when soloing up front or later over the vamp in that clip. Like I said to KIS its not the form or structure its what you do within that counts which Tony certainly took to the max in the clip at least to me and my ears and emotions. Watching him do it live several times around the same period in time as that clip changed my life FOREVER. Yes that was just a reference point in time agreed and i'm sure if he was still alive he'd be breaking further musical ground today.

Tony never lived in the past.....and was a huge spokesman about his love of all things drums and honoring the stature he put on the instrument and remembering your are never bigger or more important than the actual instrument in question. Keep it real and humble and strive to always break new ground.

Pollyanna

02-23-2010, 10:01 AM

Polly your killing me posting that Papa Joe clip.....:} One seriously musical smooth operator...timeless drum artistry.

Stan, a while ago someone posted that Papa Jo clip here and it just blew me away. The sounds he produced were so beautiful. Always happy to hear a drummer extract beauty from the kit. And he does it so gently and quietly ... AND with the most poised, charming and funny drummer faces I've ever seen :)

I appreciate the skill involved in the many solos that imitate stampeding elephants and Mac trucks but I'd much rather hear Papa's sounds of (gentle) nature. We live in a noisier society today, more separated from the natural world, and the solos played seem to reflect that. Damn, I always fancied myself as being the hip auntie and never expected to become a nostalgic old fart so soon ... back in my dayyy ...

MikeM

02-23-2010, 10:19 AM

Stan, a while ago someone posted that Papa Jo clip here and it just blew me away. I remember posting that clip to your thread on drummers with a light touch. I was just about to post it in the "tom angles" thread, so good thing you said something!

JPW

02-23-2010, 10:20 AM

I hadn't seen that Wynton Marsalis clip. It was amazing, thank you for sharing that Polly. Now that's what a solo is.

keep it simple

02-23-2010, 12:39 PM

This is about the right duration of rock drum solo for me. A brief departure from the groove then back in before the show vibe has changed. I love Prairy Prince's drumming. So groove orientated, so much presence. Check out the execution on this clip. Standard stadium stuff I know, but with that little touch that sets it apart for me. My vote for rock's most underrated drummer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzlDFCUxbPs&feature=related

Average

02-23-2010, 04:32 PM

Not sure why you feel the need to take a pot shot at Stewart Copeland. If you can't at least recognize his talent as a drummer, than I think that says more about you than you should like.

When did he take artistic credit for soloing? And why should he (or anyone) demonstrate an ability for anything they don't care for? Did I miss something?? There's a gaping hole in your logic here that makes me wonder whether you ever studied calculus (or passed it if you did).

Hey,
I think we're misunderstanding each other. I was merely pointing out that not everyone would include Copeland in a list of super talented drumers. I don't really have an opinion of his drumming but I give him massive kudos for composing. That is a whole 'nother level.

As far as the artistic credit thing goes, this is where my writing fails me. What I mean to say is, how can someone take credit for not using an ability that he hasn't demonstrated?

Example: I try to take credit for being 'green' or 'sensible' for not driving a Ferrari, even though there is no way in hell I could afford one. See the problem there?

Example: I try to take credit for making a 'simple' painting by putting a single drop of paint at the center of a canvas. Never mind the fact that I can't paint AT ALL, and putting a dot there would even be a stretch. See the problem?

Example: I take credit for having the self restraint to not sing the National Anthem on TV. You see, I don't want to be a show off. Never mind the fact that no one would EVER pay me a single penny to sing. See the problem?

Pavlos

02-23-2010, 05:03 PM

Sorry, I'm not following you on that. Please explain.

Not really directed at you, but just remembering a few big Stewie Copeland love/hate debates that raged here a year or two ago. Guess he's just a polarizing kind o guy. It's around somewhere if you search. I think there was the exact same debate about him and drum solos (plus other stuff). Don't really feel like rehashing that now. I think he's great and no one's going to change my mind on that!

It boggles my mind to see on a DRUM BASED forum not much love for drum solos floating around. I think someone else mentioned this already and quite frankly it somewhat surprising to see. LONG LIVE THE DRUM SOLO!

Aww, that was meant more as a joke. I love a good drum solo. But there is a grain of truth in there. Plus it is directed more at rock drum solos, rather than Jazz solos which are more integral to that style.

You make it sound like no drummers like a good drum solo anymore, and that this perceived lack of enthusiasm for them somehow marks the end of the “good drumming” era.

There are plenty of drummers who still like a good drum solo - me included, but I know I'm not alone when I say that it takes more to knock my socks off than it once did. One thing about solos is they have to have some kind of "wow" factor; as in, "Wow, I've never seen anyone do that before!"

Solo's (and playing styles in general) are like jokes in that they're most effective when fresh and there's an element of surprise with a clever twist. Jokes just get progressively less funny the more they're told (no matter how funny they were at first), just like big rock arena drum solos stop being interesting once they become predictable and begin their descent into the cliché.

One reason you won't hear be complain about the fickleness of "pop culture", or the general evolution of things, is because of this hardwired tendency in the brain to seek new stimulus - like a new funny joke.

Same could be said for traditional jazz or blues solos - they're integral to the form, but the form itself isn't exactly new anymore and most people know what to expect. The element of surprise is largely gone by now.

So you think drum solos are just a joke! How dare you. : p

Seriously, these are some interesting comments. Not sure what I think here. I do see what you're saying and don't totally disagree, but would you apply the same rules to just any old (or new) songs you might listen to? (I notice you mentioned styles too in there so maybe that already answers my question.)

To put it another way, is there a different set of criteria in play when it comes to listening to a drum solo? Most of the music (new or old) that I listen to does not have drum solos in it. Not really a conscious choice, it's just what I like. And when I say "listen to" I mean the stuff that stands up to repeated listening. I love good stand-up comedy for instance, but like you said it doesn't stand up to repeated listening (or very little of it does). Good music for me does stand up to repeated listening. I can pop in my favorite Radiohead disc (just one example) and listen to it for days without getting tired. I can't say the same for any stand-up.

Or maybe it's just that it needs to be a quality drum solo, maybe more integrated into the rest of the music like some others have noted. Here's a few that are part of my regular playlists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBqoYsVLqRo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDDOFXSgAs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALVjwR3dFE8

This is about the right duration of rock drum solo for me. A brief departure from the groove then back in before the show vibe has changed. I love Prairy Prince's drumming. So groove orientated, so much presence. Check out the execution on this clip. Standard stadium stuff I know, but with that little touch that sets it apart for me. My vote for rock's most underrated drummer.

Good post. I agree, that (or maybe just a bit longer) would be pretty good for a rock context. I still love Neil's solos for example, but at almost 10 minutes (or more?) they're getting way too long.

Average

02-23-2010, 09:57 PM

It's hard to use the term "bad drummers" though because 1) it's relative 2) hardly anyone is a bad drummer in their own mind just as no one is a bad driver or a bad lay.

Point taken. I wish I had a better command of the language.

MikeM

02-23-2010, 11:39 PM

As far as the artistic credit thing goes, this is where my writing fails me. What I mean to say is, how can someone take credit for not using an ability that he hasn't demonstrated?

Example: I try to take credit for being 'green' or 'sensible' for not driving a Ferrari, even though there is no way in hell I could afford one. See the problem there?
A better question might be: would you still not drive one if you could afford to just in the interest of being green? Do you take credit for not driving an SUV (a more real-world example, I think), or do you go for high efficiency cars, and green products in general? Do you turn off the lights and lower your thermostat?

Example: I try to take credit for making a 'simple' painting by putting a single drop of paint at the center of a canvas. Never mind the fact that I can't paint AT ALL, and putting a dot there would even be a stretch. See the problem?
Meg White on a canvass? I actually like the way she plays. You should take up painting!
I think I get what you're going after here, but it still feels a little backward to me.

You're implying that Copeland couldn't play a solo, and so shouldn't be critical of them.

I listen to his drumming on "Driven To Tears" for example, and I know right off that this guy spent a lot of time in the wood shed in his youth. To my ears, it's a helluva lot more spontaneous than any Neil Peart drum solo. That right there tells me that he could if he wanted to, but he's said he doesn't. In light of how well I know he can play, I'll take him on his word. I honestly think it's an aesthetic issue for him.

Saying Copeland owes us a solo before he can say he doesn’t like them is like telling me that I have to deliver yodeling recital before I can say I don’t like yodeling.

Davo-London

02-23-2010, 11:40 PM

Let's hope not..... seen Brian Blade, Jeff Ballard, Eric Harland, Jeff "Tain" Watts solo lately? Just 4 of countless good current examples to pick from keeping the art of enjoyable to listen to soloing very much alive.

Point made........

Yes I have, and as you know I didn't like Jeff Ballard, so what point have you made?

I really have to admire the drummer first, to enjoy a solo.

Davo

MikeM

02-24-2010, 12:15 AM

Not really directed at you, but just remembering a few big Stewie Copeland love/hate debates that raged here a year or two ago. Guess he's just a polarizing kind o guy. It's around somewhere if you search. I think there was the exact same debate about him and drum solos (plus other stuff). Don't really feel like rehashing that now. I think he's great and no one's going to change my mind on that!
Oh, that explains it: I missed out on that thread. Dang!

I do see what you're saying and don't totally disagree, but would you apply the same rules to just any old (or new) songs you might listen to? (I notice you mentioned styles too in there so maybe that already answers my question.)
I do have a limited attention span. There’s so much old music that I used to really like that I just can’t listen to anymore. Most of the stuff I listened to as a kid I just can’t get into anymore. I used to listen to Rush to death, but any more I can only do Moving Pictures maybe twice a year, or so.

This week, I really like the entire new Metric record. Last week it was Corrosion Of Conformity (with Stanton Moore) and The Ting Tings. Last month I was checking out the new Mars Volta and before that is was Them Crooked Vultures. I subscribe to a music service (Rhapsody) because CDs are just too expensive and have such short shelf lives.

I like to find things that are new and capture my imagination but then they wear off. Sometimes they wear off quickly and other times they don’t wear off at all (King Crimson, or Pink Floyd for example). I try not to make a value judgments based on that.

Steamer

02-24-2010, 12:41 AM

Yes I have, and as you know I didn't like Jeff Ballard, so what point have you made?

I really have to admire the drummer first, to enjoy a solo.

Davo

I agree as I too have to really admire them too first especially Jeff starting at the 4 minute mark on this clip with Chick. World class player and soloist IMO.

Phenomenal performance!.....let the drummer/performance do the talking for itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnjCBMl7ixw

Drums101

02-24-2010, 12:46 AM

Steamer

02-24-2010, 12:50 AM

You really liked that drum solo? Even I was a bit dissappointed with Tony Williams in that one.

Not me in the least I loved it as I did watching him perform with this band live several times.

Each to his own and what touches you deep......

JPW

02-24-2010, 01:09 AM

I agree as I too have to really admire them too first especially Jeff starting at the 4 minute mark on this clip with Chick. World class player and soloist IMO.

Phenomenal performance!.....let the drummer/performance do the talking for itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnjCBMl7ixw

Now if that isn't amazing I don't know what is. Truly inspiring stuff! Thank you for sharing. <3

diosdude

02-24-2010, 01:33 AM

To the next generation of fans and drummers, no the solo is not dead. Joey Jordison and Travis Barker are carrying the torch into the next decade. Somebody please give those guys some lessons on soloing.

Average

02-24-2010, 01:59 AM

I think I get what you're going after here, but it still feels a little backward to me.

You're implying that Copeland couldn't play a solo, and so shouldn't be critical of them.

I listen to his drumming on "Driven To Tears" for example, and I know right off that this guy spent a lot of time in the wood shed in his youth. To my ears, it's a helluva lot more spontaneous than any Neil Peart drum solo. That right there tells me that he could if he wanted to, but he's said he doesn't. In light of how well I know he can play, I'll take him on his word. I honestly think it's an aesthetic issue for him.

Saying Copeland owes us a solo before he can say he doesn’t like them is like telling me that I have to deliver yodeling recital before I can say I don’t like yodeling.

I think his opinion on solos would carry more weight if we knew he could actually play one. The way it stands now, it sounds a little pompous and disingenuous to me when he rails against soloists. There are plenty of interviews out there where he absolutely bashes solos and soloists. There wasn't a lot of room for interpretation. Anyway at least now it seems like you understand what I was trying to say, even if you disagree.

MikeM

02-24-2010, 02:21 AM

The way it stands now, it sounds a little pompous and disingenuous to me when he rails against soloists. There are plenty of interviews out there where he absolutely bashes solos and soloists. There wasn't a lot of room for interpretation. Anyway at least now it seems like you understand what I was trying to say, even if you disagree.Believe me, I've read his interviews too, which is why I spend considerable time and treasure on therapy just so I can continue to enjoy his drumming. :D

MikeM

02-24-2010, 07:56 AM

hmmmmm, where have I heard this before? I have a big deja vu vibe going on here. Oh man, I so totally get it now! Nevermind what I said about the therapy: I've done a little interview rereading and forum perusing, so I've managed to figure out who's-who in this conversation.

Just wiggle your fingers really fast! Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

DrumEatDrum

02-24-2010, 08:15 AM

On the flip side, if I go to a Rush concert, my mother and her brother knows Neil Peart is going to put on a drum solo. Not only do the fans expect it, he expects to play one. I, for one, am glad he won't abandon this tradition. Heck, I wrote an entire series of articles (http://theparadiddler.com/2009/02/20/neil-peart-solos-ranked/) on all his published solos - I'm that into them.

Now, see, I'm on the opposite side here.

I love Rush, been a fan of them for 28 years, and I've seen them in concert numerous times, and I'll gladly do anything I can to see them again. I have a whole wall of my studio devoted to Neil Peart, I've read his books, I have every album, every release.....

But that said, I've seen him solo. Been there, done that dozens of times. I'd rather see Rush play one more song.

Now, when it comes to Steward Copeland....haha....Oh my, what a thread that was. *ducks*

Those Pa Jo Jones clips are priceless. I wish I had seen them when I was younger.

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 09:38 AM

Now, when it comes to Steward Copeland....haha....Oh my, what a thread that was. *ducks*

Those Pa Jo Jones clips are priceless. I wish I had seen them when I was younger.

I've not seen that thread. You're not going to say that people here argued because he said he didn't like solos and people questioned his ability, are you? This is the man who got thousands of drummers diddling on their hihats - and then scratching their heads as to why it doesn't have the same effect as SC's efforts :) SC's so nimble and colourful and lively that he doesn't need to solo - it's all there in the set, anyway.

The Papa Jo vid (nice one, Mike) hit the spot for quite a few here, I see. He's so loveable in the vid but apparently he was a hard case in real life. I guess he was just one of those many-sided types like Charlie Mingus. There's a lot of sensitive, temperamental musos around!

And how about Bongo John's solo? Wonderful stuff. It inspired me to go out the next day and replace my bongos that had been broken and neglected for years. Great little things - every simple tap is rewarded with this lovely little bap sound.

Herlin Riley ... I know a lot of people are brought down by Wynton Marsalis's musical conservatism but that solo is just beautiful.

Stan, did Jeff B's rims and rimshots in that piece remind you of Papa Jo in the Caravan vid?

MikeM

02-24-2010, 11:06 AM

Wow. This place is a freaking minefield. Now stewart copeland comes up? Uh oh. Suffice it to say that opinion is divided on whether or not Copeland can be included in the pack of 'very good drummers'. I respect the hell out of him for jumping to composing. I put very little weight on his opinion of drum solos. How can someone take artistic credit for not using an ability that he hasn't demonstrated? Did I mention that I don't like using calculus to solve wierd problems? I don't like Ferraris either.

I never said Copeland was a bad drummer. He is just average. Average isn't a bad thing. I don't dislike his playing, I dislike his attitude about soloing. I have seen him live several times and there are copious videos of him playing. What I have seen so far does not lead me to believe that he is capable of soloing. So when he bashes drum solos and says guys who take drum solos have big egos, and claims he is making an artistic statement by not playing solos, I say shenanegans.

Anyway, I'm popping the popcorn.

That popcorn done yet? Pass it over!

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 12:11 PM

Strange comment from Monstermook. SC, an average drummer by what standards?

This is the guy who's revered as one of the great drummers in rock for his power, conviction, groove, nimbleness, coordination, energy, sound, feel and originality. This is the guy who played in a band with ex-Soft Machine guitarist Andy Summers (who jams with Robert Fripp). This is the guy whose bassist had Omar Hakim drumming in his first solo album and tours. Those guys aren't going to play play with an average drummer who's incapable of soloing.

Some people are hard to please. I find it mildly threatening ... like, if someone thinks SC is only average then I'd hate to imagine what they thought of my playing!

I can imagine the feedback ... Die, woman, die! Never pick up those sticks again! That was horrible! HORRIBLE! OMG, there should be a law against it *mutter mumble*

Hmm, maybe I shouldn't imagine it? :)

Returning to Planet Earth for a moment ... without evidence we can only speculate, but I speculate that if Stewart's heart was in it he could solo the house down (by my standards, anyway). Arrgh, who cares? I get plenty enough joy from the way he drives the music along and don't care who thinks differently.

This prompted me to play this live version of Driven to Tears (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BaLhCyccs8) - go Stew!

Average

02-24-2010, 01:02 PM

That popcorn done yet? Pass it over!

That is the exact thread I was referring to. BTW - I'm an average drummer. I never said Stewart Copeland was and I don't agree. I think he is fairly brilliant when you consider the whole picture with composing etc. thrown in.

khanedeliac

02-24-2010, 01:22 PM

Average

02-24-2010, 01:30 PM

Now, when it comes to Steward Copeland....haha....Oh my, what a thread that was. *ducks*

Yeah. Thats why I was saying bringing up Copeland was a fairly bad idea. I think he might have to go on my 'do not discuss' list along with Peart. No matter what you say about either drummer you are going to piss someone off. If you aren't 100% doe-eyed worshipful you'll piss off the fans. If you are 100% doe-eyed worshipful you'll piss off everyone else. So either way, no matter what you say, it is impossible NOT to have angry people in the discussion. No thanks.

MikeM

02-24-2010, 01:42 PM

...I think he might have to go on my 'do not discuss' list along with Peart...

…[Note to Monstermook - please never, ever post in the Neil Peart Thread]…

Hmmm, yet another similarity... shall we compare monstermook's latest post activities with Average's Join Date?

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 01:44 PM

The issue I have always had with both is that there is almost never any other instrument playing anything during a solo in either genre ... When a guitarist/horn/reed instrument takes a solo, there are other instruments playing in a reserved manner to support the soloist.

Fair point. Is this special status - as an unaccompanied solo instrument - a blessing or a curse or just how it has to be? Guess it depends on preference. Is it consolation for doing the hard yards as the support person?

A while ago someone here put me on to Don Caballero. Their drummer, Damon Che, does plenty of what could be called solos with accompaniment in their music. Damon's drums appear to be their main solo voice. It's crazy music and won't be everyone's cup of tea but as a drum-head I find his kind of drum soloing very satisfying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY5_5iZjWk

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 01:49 PM

No need for anyone to get peeved about someone else not liking a drummer you especially like. We don't need to like the same thing. It really doesn't matter. I was a bit confused by the comment, that's all. After finding that thread (more fool me) I see Mr Copeland-is-average is a "filter coffee and Perrier only" kind of guy, whereas I can be perfectly happy with instant coffee and tap water.

Average, I agree that Stewie's brilliant too, maybe for different reasons to some extent, but that's diversity for ya!

It still doesn't matter :)

MikeM

02-24-2010, 02:04 PM

It doesn't bother me at all that most drummers are average. I should be more specific about what I mean by average. Falling within 1 standard deviation above or below the mean is what I would consider average. I am actually being very kind to drummers who fall below the mean and including them in the definition of average. By my definition, 68.2 out of 100 drummers will be average.
Not bad, looks like you took a stats class, although it's not so much that you're being kind.since the mean IS the Average. Seem to have a thing for all things Average, though...

Did I mention that I don't like using calculus to solve wierd problems?Do you prefer tensor analysis?

khanedeliac

02-24-2010, 02:13 PM

Fair point. Is this special status - as an unaccompanied solo instrument - a blessing or a curse or just how it has to be? Guess it depends on preference. Is it consolation for doing the hard yards as the support person?

A while ago someone here put me on to Don Caballero. Their drummer, Damon Che, does plenty of what could be called solos with accompaniment in their music. Damon's drums appear to be their main solo voice. It's crazy music and won't be everyone's cup of tea but as a drum-head I find his kind of drum soloing very satisfying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY5_5iZjWk

Thats exactly what I wonder, why does it happen that we get this 'special' status, for better or for worse? (Not forgetting a bass solo in jazz is also normally unaccompanied)
I love the 'hard yards' (great expression, btw) because it contributes to the whole picture. The longer I drum (into my 5th year now, so still just coming out of infancy in drumming terms) the more I care about how my music sounds, not how good my chops are. If I can get both in there and it sounds dope, then that's perfect, but restraint is underrated. Im getting more and more into embellishments over fills, and pushing and pulling the beat at the end of a phrase; it sounds so much more musical than ripping, and can 'rip' just as much.

Yeah! Don Caballero are awesome! If you are enjoying the post-rock freakout-ness of it all, then you might like Ilium, Piglet and Chevreuil, also awesome bands. The guitarist in DC is from a band called Battles, who are also damn cool. The Redneck Manifesto also kick ass.

Average

02-24-2010, 02:15 PM

Average, I agree that Stewie's brilliant too, maybe for different reasons to some extent, but that's diversity for ya!

The thing is, Copeland goes beyond playing the drums in music. Hes actually been a successful composer and written some really cool stuff. It puts him in a totally different league in my book. Kind of like Phil Collins or Levon Helm. And here goes. Everyone except Polly stop reading for a second.

Ringo is the same way. I actually enjoy listening to some of his solo stuff. From 1970 to 1975 he had 7 top 10 songs. One of my favorite songs (in my ipod) is It Don't Come Easy, which Ringo wrote.

OK everyone else can read now. I swear I won't mention that name again. Anyway, point being that Copeland, Collins and Helm are 'whole picture' kind of guys. Looking at the whole picture elevates them (at least in my eyes) beyond the specifics of their drumming. Of those three, the one I'd like to see take a solo most would be Copeland.

Average

02-24-2010, 02:16 PM

Not bad, looks like you took a stats class, although it's not so much that you're being kind.since the mean IS the Average. Seem to have a thing for all things Average, though...

Do you prefer tensor analysis?

Ugg. Math is hard. I'm not even sure what average is, except that my ability on the drums is, at best, average.

I found the forums right around the time of that thread. After reading the discussion, I thought it would be funny to take the name Average.

So is the mean the same thing as the average? Thats always been confusing.

dale w miller

02-24-2010, 02:26 PM

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 02:43 PM

Average, yup, "mean" and "average" are the same thing - the sum divided by the number of items. I could talk about the mode as well (no, not scales starting off the tonic) but it would bore everyone :)

I think involvement in songwriting/composing and other instruments are great things for drummers to do if they have the chance. It does give you another angle. The period when I was playing (primitive) keyboards with a band and we were auditioning drummers has always stayed with me, mainly what not to do. Ironically, that's what got me blah-blahing about drummers overplaying. When you're the "victim" of it, it's pretty off-putting. Probably went over the top with the sermons, of course, but that's what I do :)

I admire people like Phil and Levon (and Sheila E) who can provide quality lead vocals and drums simultaneously even though none of them are my first choice to listen to.

Average

02-24-2010, 02:55 PM

Average, yup, "mean" and "average" are the same thing - the sum divided by the number of items. I could talk about the mode as well (no, not scales starting off the tonic) but it would bore everyone :)

Mode is the one that occurs most often right? The musical mode I know a tiny bit about. Those naughty Greeks.

I think involvement in songwriting/composing and other instruments are great things for drummers to do if they have the chance. It does give you another angle. The period when I was playing (primitive) keyboards with a band and we were auditioning drummers has always stayed with me, mainly what not to do. Ironically, that's what got me blah-blahing about drummers overplaying. When you're the "victim" of it, it's pretty off-putting. Probably went over the top with the sermons, of course, but that's what I do :)

I guess my parents were right when they said that piano lessons would make me a better drummer. I wish the piano teacher had picked more interesting music for an 8 year old. I might have stuck with it beyond a few years.

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 03:06 PM

Thats exactly what I wonder, why does it happen that we get this 'special' status, for better or for worse? (Not forgetting a bass solo in jazz is also normally unaccompanied)

Well, we're playing the most melodically limited instrument in the band. By the same token, until beatboxing, vocalists almost never got to be part of the rhythm section either. We're unique :) Most times I've heard the drummer gently supporting jazz bass solos, and sometimes there's a little piano comping too. Then they usually drop out and leave it to the tub thumper to do his thang. One example of the piano sticking with the drums throughout the solo is Dave Brubeck's classic, Take Five.

The longer I drum (into my 5th year now, so still just coming out of infancy in drumming terms) the more I care about how my music sounds, not how good my chops are. If I can get both in there and it sounds dope, then that's perfect, but restraint is underrated. Im getting more and more into embellishments over fills, and pushing and pulling the beat at the end of a phrase; it sounds so much more musical than ripping, and can 'rip' just as much.

I broadly see two kinds of chops. If you have fairly modest technique then playing fancy stuff will be sloppy and, in most styles, detract from the song. That's where restraint is all - sticking with what we play well. I've had some wake up calls along the way where I've heard playbacks and realised that I was in fact a lot more limited than I thought I was in terms of what I could execute well. I still have those wake up calls :)

In pop and highly accessible rock I often find top drummers playing more simply than the kids covering their songs. But the top players have got their timing and dynamics together, and their patterns organised in a musical way that flows with the song.

That's pretty well always my aim these days. Occasionally I get close. If I spent more time trying to play those things at home at 40bpm with the metronome instead of socialising on this forum I'd get closer :)

JPW

02-24-2010, 03:19 PM

Drum solos are (almost always) self-indulgent, especially in a rock context.
Jazz drum solos have more of a tradition, and are therefore given more 'license' so to speak.
Occasionally, they are brilliant.

The issue I have always had with both is that there is almost never any other instrument playing anything during a solo in either genre. Now, before all of you dog-pile me by saying "that's the definition of 'solo', dumbass!"
When a guitarist/horn/reed instrument takes a solo, there are other instruments playing in a reserved manner to support the soloist.

Now, allow me to make a couple more reasonable generalizations to display my opinion.

In big Rock shows (the stadium/arena type, where the rock drumsolo is most likely to be found), when the drummer takes a solo, it is usually a display of power, groove and speed; which is all well and good if played tastefully (which as we know is hardly ever) but I cant help but feel it would be enhanced umpteenfold by the other instruments playing stabs on the 1 or just a simple little melodic line underneath the drummer.

In Jazz, the solo is generally a display of dynamics, touch, texture and ability, which again, is all well and good if played with taste. But once more, the other instruments generally drop out and leave the drummer riding the soundwaves by themselves. Just keeping the bass going with a slight permutation of what was being played previously, along with some piano chords and gentle bursts of horn/reed playing; I feel it would be greatly enhanced.

So, I basically agree with the folks who are saying they would rather see another song/ the band as a whole in context than see a solo. Im more interested in the musical picture as a whole, not just impressing other drummers.
If we are going for drummer satisfaction, then what Id rather hear another drummer play AND play myself in the situation; would be a couple of 4 bar breaks where you trade with another instrument or the song drops out for 1/2/4 bars while you embellish & fill, before resuming THE MUSIC.
Unless you can play one like Papa Jo Jones; keep it in the shed.

The word "self-indulgent" is quite dangerous one to use because it's all subjective perception. In a way all musicians can be said to be "self-indulgent" we aren't necessarily saving lives anyways. And there are lots of solos where other players play vamps/ostinatos during it and there are lots of guitar/piano/horn solos where there aren't any other instruments playing. This overgeneralization starts to really get on my nerves now. Once again, this is the wester world and we enjoy melody more than rythm that's why most of us (me excluded) can't enjoy purely rythmic solos so we demand solos to be melodic before we can even hope to start to enjoy them. Unfortunately not many drummers think and/or can play melodically -> musically (in west).

Also, when you start to know most of the theory behind drumming you can start to use the phrase "he was just..." or "he was merely..." and somehow destroy everything the soloist was doing. I think that's quite a cheap tactic to take.

I just watched Keith Carlock's new DVD and man that first open solo on it was pure ... I dunno what.. awesomeness! He absolutely told a story there and I enjoyed every millisecond of it. I dare to watch it and come back to this DRUM-forum and whine it being boring and not saying anything to you.

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 03:26 PM

Mode is the one that occurs most often right?

That's the puppy. And the median is basically the middle number/s if you laid them all out in a line.

You know, that was pretty damn sharp of Mike to pick up the correlation between the Copeland debunker guy and your username and start date. I missed that altogether and I work with stats all the time *shame*

The musical mode I know a tiny bit about. Those naughty Greeks.

Yes, they were very naughty, hence the term "Greek style" and all that Phrygian about they did ... <grooooan>

I guess my parents were right when they said that piano lessons would make me a better drummer. I wish the piano teacher had picked more interesting music for an 8 year old. I might have stuck with it beyond a few years.

Aaack! Don't remind me. I turned down piano lessons at age 10. Big mistake because I love piano.

khanedeliac

02-24-2010, 03:43 PM

The word "self-indulgent" is quite dangerous one to use because it's all subjective perception. In a way all musicians can be said to be "self-indulgent" we aren't necessarily saving lives anyways. And there are lots of solos where other players play vamps/ostinatos during it and there are lots of guitar/piano/horn solos where there aren't any other instruments playing. This overgeneralization starts to really get on my nerves now. Once again, this is the wester world and we enjoy melody more than rythm that's why most of us (me excluded) can't enjoy purely rythmic solos so we demand solos to be melodic before we can even hope to start to enjoy them. Unfortunately not many drummers think and/or can play melodically -> musically (in west).

Also, when you start to know most of the theory behind drumming you can start to use the phrase "he was just..." or "he was merely..." and somehow destroy everything the soloist was doing. I think that's quite a cheap tactic to take.

I just watched Keith Carlock's new DVD and man that first open solo on it was pure ... I dunno what.. awesomeness! He absolutely told a story there and I enjoyed every millisecond of it. I dare to watch it and come back to this DRUM-forum and whine it being boring and not saying anything to you.

Self-Indulgent means it serves the ego of oneself. A solo and one's ego are inextricably linked, unless as someone mentioned in an earlier page the audience is fully expecting to see one. And just how self indulgent is also judged by the individual but also dictated by the length of the solo and what it means in the context of the rest of what is being played (or not played!)
No we are not saving lives, but if you are performing in a band, it is my opinion you are there to play WITH your fellow musicians, not as the exception. (Is it not annoying in Zep's Heartbreaker how Page just goes off on one as the whole song breaks down to just guitar? I always hit skip at that point...) This applies to all instrumentalists, I agree that drum solos get more flak than other instrument solo performances, and I also agree with your point that technique-heads dissecting or over-simplifying a drummer's solo performance only belittle it.

Yes, there are solos where there are other ostinatos and vamps form the rest of the musical ensemble and vice versa, but they are the exception rather than the rule, which is what gets me.

As for Western world and Eastern world, I have a vast record collection that encompasses both and I understand the traditions of each. Yes, it is traditionally melody that we listen out for, but rhythm when displayed effectively and tastefully is just as moving a stimulus. But you hit the nail on the head about the fact that a significant number of drummer cant think and/or play melodically/musically. Thats where the enjoyment begins to dip.

The bottom line is that there arent that many drum solos that move you like the Keith Carlock one you are talking about, awesome solo from an awesome and MUSICAL drummer.

Average

02-24-2010, 03:49 PM

You know, that was pretty damn sharp of Mike to pick up the correlation between the Copeland debunker guy and your username and start date. I missed that altogether and I work with stats all the time *shame*

Gotta give MikeM the props on figuring out where my username came from. I came on right around the time of that thread. It really made me think about where I stood in the grand world of drumming and evaluate where I stood in relation to those that have come before and those who are playing now. In the grand scheme of things I am the average player monstermook was talking about in the thread. And the way I see it, thats just fine. It isn't a competition to me anyway. I play because I love to play, not because I want to 'be better' than someone.

Yes, they were very naughty, hence the term "Greek style" and all that Phrygian about they did ... <grooooan>

Oh boy. Not sure I want to look into what that means.

Pavlos

02-24-2010, 03:53 PM

That's
Yes, they were very naughty, hence the term "Greek style" and all that Phrygian about they did ... <grooooan>

You give me a word, any word, and I show you, the root is Greek!

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 04:13 PM

There's a lot here that comes down to taste and people's perceptions. It's also true, as Stan noted earlier, that following a preset, standard format can be fabulous is the performance is fabulous.

In the popular music arena drum solos are not in vogue - that's not just a fact but an understatement. Imagine a drummer today getting a record deal to record a single like Cozy Powell's Dance With the Devil (never mind that it was a ripoff of Jimi's Third Stone and then Cozy's rhythms were ripped off by Boney M years later).

khanedeliac, I get what you're saying. It just so depends on the solo. There are many more imaginative ways of playing a cadenza than just going hell for leather with the stampeding elephants. When I was young I used to love all that for the sheer excitement - and that's generally the target audience for those kinds of solos.

Fair enough too - someone's got to make music that turns kids on.

But once you get older and you're not the target audience any more then you look for solos that flow from the music beforehand and either retain or develop the mood the of the song before the solo, flowing through to the passage after the solo. Doing the stampeding elephants for a while, breaking off and going 1234 no longer cuts it.

For example ... how about the violin cadenza in Lark's Tongues Pt 1? David Cross (violin) doesn't just shred like crazy but plays the composition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teGPqRu66W0 (with a little melodically based improv). Some drummers do the equivalent of that and it's satisfying because it is, as you say, music first ego second. A rambunctious ego might be pretty damn cool when you're young, but once you're older it isn't.

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 04:16 PM

You give me a word, any word, and I show you, the root is Greek!

Okay - how about "restaurant" and "chateau"? :)

keep it simple

02-24-2010, 04:33 PM

Although I'm not a fan of solos generally, I do agree they can be attractive if executed well. I think most negative opinion (including my own) is based around poor or predictable solo execution. Just to throw a curved ball here, it's funny that we're debating the future of the drum solo, whereas solo's of other instruments (typically the guitar in rock) seem to be far more expected, accepted and integrated into the body of the song. Are we the poor relation yet again?

Thaard

02-24-2010, 04:42 PM

The solo is not dead! In two of the tunes my band have, I have a drum-solo! Muahaha! (And it's not jazz). Generally though, solos like you'd see in the old days with The Who and Led Zep, arent as common as they used to be. Tunes get streamlined and "wastefull" drum-solos just drag the timer to over 4 minutes, which the general consumer doesn't have time for. It seems that fewer and fewer enjoy and listen to music, instead of using it while they're working out or partying.

If you want to see more drum-solos, I'd suggest you steer clear of popular music and delve deep into jazz, fusion, latino and underground music(Jojo Mayers nerve for example) and also more progressive stuff. I think you'd be surprised.

MikeM

02-24-2010, 04:43 PM

Gotta give MikeM the props on figuring out where my username came from. I came on right around the time of that thread. It really made me think about where I stood in the grand world of drumming and ...
Just for the record, I didn't just figure out where your name came from - I'm thoroughly convinced that you are/were monstermook.

You gave it away when you said that SC needed to prove his soloing abilities before he could claim any artistic reason for not playing them.

That's not only backwards logic and total baloney, it's EXACTLY the argument that monstermook endlessly relied on in the SC thread, which I read in it's entirety since being alerted to its existence yesterday. That was the link.

All the other stuff like your new username, join dates (monstermook was just before the SC thread started, Average was just after it ended), the Neil Peart comment, the math, your snarky tone toward SC on this thread up to post #127... all of it was just more red flags.

Say what you want about me just figuring out your user name - you'll always be monstermook to me.

Average

02-24-2010, 04:47 PM

Just to throw a curved ball here, it's funny that we're debating the future of the drum solo, whereas solo's of other instruments (typically the guitar in rock) seem to be far more expected, accepted and integrated into the body of the song. Are we the poor relation yet again?

I don't think it that we are a poor relation. As someone pointed out above, it is pretty rare for any other instrument to play a solo where no one else is playing. I wonder if the stakes are a lot higher when only one person is playing? Is it harder for one person to maintain the interest of the audience than it is for an ensemble? One thing that is missing when only one person is playing is the interplay between the band and the soloist. In that context, I can see why most drum solos end up boring.

To answer your question more specifically, I would say that it takes an enormous amount of skill and creativity to pull off a drum solo that will hold the audience's attention. Because that level of musicianship is so incredibly rare, drum solos are typically not the first thing people think about when putting together a song. I guess it is a law of averages thing?

keep it simple

02-24-2010, 04:52 PM

I don't think it that we are a poor relation. As someone pointed out above, it is pretty rare for any other instrument to play a solo where no one else is playing. I wonder if the stakes are a lot higher when only one person is playing? Is it harder for one person to maintain the interest of the audience than it is for an ensemble? One thing that is missing when only one person is playing is the interplay between the band and the soloist. In that context, I can see why most drum solos end up boring.

To answer your question more specifically, I would say that it takes an enormous amount of skill and creativity to pull off a drum solo that will hold the audience's attention. Because that level of musicianship is so incredibly rare, drum solos are typically not the first thing people think about when putting together a song. I guess it is a law of averages thing?I don't think we're the poor relation either, just posing the question. Anyhow, following on from your observations, can a drums only intro be classified as a solo of sorts? I rather think it can. Maybe that's our accepted song integrated solo position whereas the guitarist/key player/whoever usually occupies the middle 8.

Pollyanna

02-24-2010, 04:54 PM

Are we the poor relation yet again?

Yes and no. In a way we're special. The others don't get to hold the floor like we do (or can do if we choose). That a bummer, as Larry said earlier, if you don't feel comfortable holding the floor alone.

Or does it stem from being evicted in the early days when musos were snobby about drums? ... If you're going to a solo on that so-called instrument - go do it yourself but I'm having no part in it!

Perhaps, because we were originally lowest in the pecking order (and still can be), no one is prepared to reduce themselves to acting as accompanist for a mere drummer?

Or maybe no one thought of a way of getting a drum voice to take the lead in a way that progressed the song as a whole, according to the limits of what they thought was acceptable? I mean, it would seem comical for a singer to be doing the sensitive romantic heartfelt thing and then next minute the song's lead voice is going boogidy boogidy boom (even if it's rationalised as a heartbeat). So we'll give that to one of the tuned instruments.

Songs about dancing are fair game for rhythmic drum solos, though :)

Pavlos

02-24-2010, 05:02 PM

Okay - how about "restaurant" and "chateau"? :)

Just spray some windex on them.

Average

02-24-2010, 05:05 PM

Just for the record, I didn't just figure out where your name came from - I'm thoroughly convinced that you are/were monstermook.

You gave it away when you said that SC needed to prove his soloing abilities before he could claim any artistic reason for not playing them.

That's not only backwards logic and total baloney, it's EXACTLY the argument that monstermook endlessly relied on in the SC thread, which I read in it's entirety since being alerted to its existence yesterday. That was the link.

All the other stuff like your new username, join dates (monstermook was just before the SC thread started, Average was just after it ended), the Neil Peart comment, the math, your snarky tone toward SC on this thread up to post #127... all of it was just more red flags.

Say what you want about me just figuring out your user name, but you'll always be monstermook to me.

I totally didn't pick up on the fact that you were trying to link me to monstermook. I guess you need to be more obvious with me. A lot of people must be monstermook then because a LOT of people joined around that time and a lot of people, before and since, have said things that monstermook said. Just even in this thread you have Druid's post #82 in which he says:
To me drums and drum soloing are horribly misunderstood....arguing about tune formats should not be the issue. Jazz soloing is what it is...jazz soloing and it's not easy to do at all and takes some guts heart and brains to do it right. In many cultures the drums are DRIVING FORCE....they ARE the SONG.....and damn if I don't love that approach. IN Western culture too many people take the "sideline approach" which filters into everything...less is more....drums are not music...pretty soon people are playing a simple bass snare money beat and acting like it is an achivement. So many people hear completely programmed nonsense complete with auto-tuner vocals that is the equivilent to a broken air conditioner rattling in semi- repeatable rhythms and call it "a great song".....it's hillarious actually. Watch ANY music awards show to see what I mean. The values are all messed up.

I guess monstermook=druid. Also in this thread you have JPW articulating a some of the same ideas that came up in the SC thread. So JPW=monstermook. Look at Mattsmith's posts throughout his 4 year career here. Mattsmith=monstermook. Jeez, even KIS's recent post has is a little along the monstermook line of thinking. KIS=monstermook? VedranS has expressed some similar ideas to what monstermook has said. VedranS=monstermook. Wait though. If I'm monstermook, and VedranS might come to one of my shows this weekend, and VedranS is monstermook, won't that be a little weird? Uggg. Alright you got me! I'm mattsmith, druid, KIS, vedranS, Steamer, Deltadrummer, Construct, Jay Norem, Pollyanna, Pavlos, khanedeliac, DrumEatDrum, diosdude and a bunch of other people. In fact, I'm MikeM!!! I'm having a conversation with myself just to confuse you. LOL.

Here is the proof I am Average AND MikeM AND monstermook: Monstermook joins before SC thread, I join in April '09 (after SC thread) and MikeM joins in May of '09, also after SC thread and a month after me. Monstermook mentioned the definition of average in a post, I took the username Average, and MikeM has talked about the definition of average in a post. MikeM seems to have a much better command of math that either Monstermook or me though. A ton of the time, MikeM and I are online at the same time or shortly thereafter. MikeM also has same initials as Monstermook. Check it out: MikeM, Monstermook. The coincidences are just too strong. Its a conspiracy! I confess! I'm MikeM!!! Hahahaha! You have all been duped by my evil plan!

I've said it before in other threads - there are people on the forum who know me in RL. Anyone who wants to can PM me and I'd be happy to tell them everything they want to know about me. I'm not too crazy about pasting my name all over an internet site after reading some of Mattsmith's horror stories. I've got kids and a family to protect from the crazies.

keep it simple

02-24-2010, 05:50 PM

KIS=monstermook? Oh, brown fudgy stuff, I've been rumbled! I'm off to the coast. Oh, wait, that's Bernhard. Damn, Switzerland doen't have a coast, yet it has a navy. I'm very confuzzzzzzzzed. Good fun though guys!

Average

02-24-2010, 05:53 PM

Oh, brown fudgy stuff, I've been rumbled! I'm off to the coast. Oh, wait, that's Bernhard. Damn, Switzerland doen't have a coast, yet it has a navy. I'm very confuzzzzzzzzed. Good fun though guys!

Average = KIS. Look at how quickly KIS's post followed my edit of the last post. Look at how many threads we're in together! Look at how we agree with each other so often.

keep it simple

02-24-2010, 06:16 PM

Average = KIS. Look at how quickly KIS's post followed my edit of the last post. Look at how many threads we're in together! Look at how we agree with each other so often.Aaaarrggghhh, noooooway. I'm way less than average/mean/MOR/concensus, much better looking (my avatar, front row, white dress (whoops)) and I don't play McDonalds sponsored gigs!

Anyhow, your average drummer seems to play DW drums because they're the "best" bestest drums in the whole wide world and all other drums sound like stepping in a puddle on a dry day (sorry, mini rant).

Average

02-24-2010, 07:06 PM

Aaaarrggghhh, noooooway. I'm way less than average/mean/MOR/concensus, much better looking (my avatar, front row, white dress (whoops)) and I don't play McDonalds sponsored gigs!

Anyhow, your average drummer seems to play DW drums because they're the "best" bestest drums in the whole wide world and all other drums sound like stepping in a puddle on a dry day (sorry, mini rant).

YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!

MikeM

02-24-2010, 07:20 PM

If I am to post honestly on any subject, I need to stay anonymous. I have never claimed my status as a professional or my playing ability or my fame or anything else should lend any weight to what I am saying.

I noticed that your signature, and anonymity, went missing this morning. That's okay because I've updated mine with your missing information. I didn't realize how famous you were until I saw you playing on the sidewalk at the pizza joint. Great gig that was. Ha ha!

Average

02-24-2010, 08:00 PM

I noticed that your signature, and anonymity, went missing this morning. That's okay because I've updated mine with your missing information. I didn't realize how famous you were until I saw you playing on the sidewalk at the pizza joint. Great gig that was. Ha ha!

I've never claimed to be famous or have great gigs. I see you're doubling down on the crazy/stalker thing, despite my attempts to diffuse whatever hostility you have with humor. Oh well. To each his own I guess. I'm not going to argue with you anymore, you seem dangerous. Like I've said, I've got kids to protect.

Peace out ya'll. Its been fun!

MikeM

02-24-2010, 08:09 PM

I've never claimed to be famous or have great gigs. I see you're doubling down on the crazy/stalker thing, despite my attempts to diffuse whatever hostility you have with humor. Oh well. To each his own I guess. I'm not going to argue with you anymore, you seem dangerous. Like I've said, I've got kids to protect.

Peace out ya'll. Its been fun!
You made no such attempt to humor me. You remove my picture from your avatar and I go back to not using a signature. Deal?

Deltadrummer

02-24-2010, 08:10 PM

I think most of these conflicts can be diffused by the simple understanding that there are so many different grades of drumming. I think you and KIS have been honest about your aspirations as drummers to play simply and work towards the overall cohesiveness of the song. then there are the Marco Minnemanns of the world, and others whose virtuosity can often be quite enjoyable to behold. Many of the most famous drum solos are quite simple, Ringo's solo on In the end, The opening to Walk this Way or the drum breaks in Rock Steady or Funky Drummer. I remember a DVD, I think its The Bud Powell with Chick Corea, where Roy Haynes and Chick are trading fours and Roy just stays quiet for four bars. (If I remember Chick laughs at the end. Is that part of the music?) I think you have to be Roy Haynes to get ways with that.

In any event, there are many ways for drummers to solo from the short two bar lick to the extended 20 min. indulgence. Those that can make it work in any situation, big or small, are the ones who get my vote.

keep it simple

02-24-2010, 08:38 PM

. I think you and KIS have been honest about your aspirations as drummers to play simply and work towards the overall cohesiveness of the song. then there are the Marco Minnemanns of the world, and others who virtuosity can often be quite enjoyable to behold. .Thanks DD. I think you hit the nail on the head there by introducing virtuosity. A stand alone solo has to offer something different to captivate the informed audience. Something beyond just chops endears both the drummer and non drummer to the performance.

keep it simple

02-24-2010, 08:59 PM

Average

02-24-2010, 09:43 PM

Now I'm really confused. Sorry Mike, I took your picture to be Average's picture, hence the McDonalds comment. I have no issue whatsoever in taking money or facilities from McDonalds! And you're clearly better looking than me, even though I did confess to wearing a white dress.

Yeah. I'm sorry. I was making a joke trying to take the play with the whole "dual identity" thing and I put a photo of him up for my profile picture. It seems like MikeM and I are working things out over PM and confusion has been cleared up a little.

ps - the pizza place is actually a bar we played in and we were playing at their tiki hut. You have to start somewhere. We've only been playing a year and we're already getting some more decent gigs. Opening for Shamekia Copeland saturday. Woo hoo!

jer

02-24-2010, 11:14 PM

This board brings me so much entertainment, thanks everyone!

A few months ago, after we kicked our percussion player out, it left a big hole in what used to be a percussion / drum jam of a song. When we started rehearsing the tune without the percussion, I was really reluctant to take over the section as a solo. I think the "self-indulgent" aspect came into play, I used to have an even bigger ego than I currently do and the new and improved "humble-Jer" wasn't comfortable taking the spotlight. After some time and convincing, I agreed to take the part on as a solo - it was very short and to the point, say 16 bars of wanking off then the bass would drop in to help with groove until the song moved out of it's bridge.

Funny things started happening after a few shows like this. People seemed to enjoy it. They continued dancing and even started clapping their hands, they were smiling and jumping around and something in me clicked. I was no longer playing this solo as a part of a self-indulgent, ego stroking venting of chops - I was simply performing, like I always do, for the people in the audience. With the crowd temporarily in the palm of my hands, the 16 bars became 32 and then became a couple of minutes - to the point where depending on the crowd reaction, even worked out an "exit", so the guys would know when I was ready to finish the solo and continue with the song.

Normally - the other guys in the band would just kinda move to the side while I did my thing, but when we started seeing the reaction of people in the crowd and the solo got longer, something else changed one night... they dropped their instruments and went out into the crowd, dancing clapping and cheering along. Talk about motivation for a solo - when the guys in your band are getting off on your solo as much as the crowd is, you've got to step up your game. I have heard in the van after shows on previous nights, "Jer, wicked solo tonight man", or "you killed your solo tonight, dude". which is encouraging, for sure, but when the guys who are all too familiar with my "bag of tricks" are genuinely getting excited about bouncing around in the crowd to what I'm laying down, this was icing on the cake to prove to myself that drum solo's need not be about showing off or being self-indulgent only serving the ego of it's performer, but yet another musical adventure I could invite a crowd to join me on.

As far as I'm concerned, drum solos are not dead and yes Polly, Don Cab are amazing, saw them here in Toronto on the advice of a good friend, was very good advice.

Pollyanna

02-25-2010, 05:47 AM

That's the thing, Jer. Your tale is like an expanded version of that experience I had playing on the old deck at a a party when the power cut out, leaving me with an enforced solo. Get a few faux-Afrobeats going and the dancers in the crowd go YEAH!

Earlier, Ken talked about the different types of drum solos "from the short two bar lick to the extended 20 min. indulgence". There's a huge difference between a rhythmic rave (which a dancing crowd loves) and the major solo.

Even then, there are different kinds of free-wheeling major solos - from Herlin Riley's mature musicality to Lars's boodigy-booms which are aimed at a young crowd. Both are effective in terms of their audience but I'm middle-aged so I much prefer Herlin's work. That's okay; I'm not the target audience. I don't listen to The Wiggles either unless I'm careless enough to allow close proximity to ankle-biters.

So if we assume that discerning grownups will enjoy class soloing (by whatever instrument) for some time to come, what of young people? It's hard to know how things are trending.

On one hand you have the tehcno/pop thing which is mostly drum machines, then there's the metal movement that's big in Europe and The States (much less in Oz) and then you have a lot of nostalgia where kids are getting into Floyd, The Doors and Hendrix.

Is that old stuff truly timeless and will kids in 20 years time be getting into it too, or is it something that will fade away as the machine-like sounds of metal double-kicks, synthetic pop and hip hop sink more deeply into people's consciousness? Is it that we live in a more mechanised society so we will increasingly respond to mechanised sounds?