What is it with the number four?

[Der Februar]

I've always wondered why the number four is so important and common in music. Verses and choruses are commonly four lines long, riffs are usually made up of four chords and are repeated four times, even four/four time is considered common time. I know that things in fours just sounds good, but does anyone know why it sounds that way? Do you guys think it's just because people are used to hearing things in fours? Even if that were the case, someone needed to be the first to use groups of fours. What do you guys think?

[PinkZepplin]

It's cause its balanced. there are two clear halves. and on top of that, each half can be evenly divided in half. Wich gives it a very balanced and natural feel.

[Deathmetalconga]

It's cause its balanced. there are two clear halves. and on top of that, each half can be evenly divided in half. Wich gives it a very balanced and natural feel.

We are also balanced, with two hands and two feet. Music and dance have a close relationship - in most cases, the music has a specific purpose to accompany and move with the dancers, who have two feet. Putting the music in two, four or six fits with the two feet of the dancers. There are lots of dances in three but even then, the subdivisions don't go very high.

[King Of Drums]

Ya good question. I've always wondered that too. Well I wonder more specifically how western music came to be in prominently 4/4 time. A lot of music from Africa is 6/8 and a whole whack of other time signatures. I'm pretty sure a lot of other places in the world aren't mainly 4/4 based too.

It's nice though, grooves easily, nice to dance too.

This summer I was at a folk festival and this guitarist from Madagascar performed with his trio. It was all in odd time signatures and noone could really dance to it lol. 9/8, 11/8, 5/4, 6/8 I don't think he did one tune in 4/4.

[burnthehero]

I think DeathMetalConga got this one. This is getting pretty "out there", but humanity seeks balance in all things, including music. Music in 4/4 time is balanced and aesthetically pleasing to the human mind.

[aydee]

It's cause its balanced. there are two clear halves. and on top of that, each half can be evenly divided in half. Wich gives it a very balanced and natural feel.

Agree. Balance is the word.I dont think its necessarily 4s, but I would look at it as halfs, further sub divided.

Also the human hearbeat is somewhat of a 4/4 pulse with accents here & there.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Ya good question. I've always wondered that too. Well I wonder more specifically how western music came to be in prominently 4/4 time. A lot of music from Africa is 6/8 and a whole whack of other time signatures. I'm pretty sure a lot of other places in the world aren't mainly 4/4 based too.

It's nice though, grooves easily, nice to dance too.

This summer I was at a folk festival and this guitarist from Madagascar performed with his trio. It was all in odd time signatures and noone could really dance to it lol. 9/8, 11/8, 5/4, 6/8 I don't think he did one tune in 4/4.

Yes... many many kinds of folk music are 3-based. I don't think you can play world music at all with a 4-thinking mind.

Just some examples:
I eastern europe folk time measures are often 7/8, 11/8 or even 15 or 17/8. And you should see those people dance!
Still in the Balcans and Turkey, a dance rhythm is in 9/8 (2+2+2+3). Fantastic... you get the cue to the next bar with a 3 beat.
A very nice style called Georgina (from middle east) is in 10/8 (3+2+2+3). Also balanced and even symetric! You actually feel it in 2 halves when playing. Really good groove.
A lot of traditional japanese music has no time measure... and still it can be meant to be danced!
Even jazz has jazz-waltzes in 3/4.

You can dance to a 9 or an 11, and it's pretty fun!, just don't know how. It's not something you learn in a pub or see on MTV.

No... music is not generally in 4. It's just a pop-rock thing... "Radio killed the folkmusic star"

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

We are also balanced, with two hands and two feet. Music and dance have a close relationship - in most cases, the music has a specific purpose to accompany and move with the dancers, who have two feet. Putting the music in two, four or six fits with the two feet of the dancers. There are lots of dances in three but even then, the subdivisions don't go very high.

See, although four is 'balanced' to us, there are plenty of ethnic styles for whom four beats in a bar would seem very bizarre. Certain local styles have incredibly complex rhythmic structures that the Western World are only just beginning to understand; take for instance the clave. It's very difficult for us to to understand these forms of rhythm with our Euro-centric approach that has been prevalent since the very beginning of Western harmony structures around the time of the Benedictine Monks!

It's not that four is the 'easiest' rhythm to comprehend, it's that for 'us' it's the most common and the one with which we are brought up with, therefore it appears at natural as breathing. Not the case with other cultures.

[stasz]

I couldn't explain it to you. Although for sure we hear a huge amount of music in 4/4 time, so that just becomes natural I suppose. Maybe someone could do a study where you raise a child but only let him listen to non-western music in non-common time signatures. Nature or nurture? Who knows.

[aboylikedave]

I couldn't explain it to you. Although for sure we hear a huge amount of music in 4/4 time, so that just becomes natural I suppose. Maybe someone could do a study where you raise a child but only let him listen to non-western music in non-common time signatures. Nature or nurture? Who knows.
Surely you don't need to, because all the kids raised in the cultures without 4/4 as the most common are the evidence you need. Its a great question, but the answer is a very clear 'it's natural cos thats what we grow up with in the Western musical culture'.

I suppose the question I'd like an answer to is if you grow up in a non Western culture does 4/4 seem really simple or does is sound as complicated as 'strange' time sigs do to us?

[balboa]

Surely you don't need to, because all the kids raised in the cultures without 4/4 as the most common are the evidence you need. Its a great question, but the answer is a very clear 'it's natural cos thats what we grow up with in the Western musical culture'.

I suppose the question I'd like an answer to is if you grow up in a non Western culture does 4/4 seem really simple or does is sound as complicated as 'strange' time sigs do to us?

Where are all the foreign people on this subject?

[aydee]

Where are all the foreign people on this subject?

Western Pop music as someone said is omnipresent, and a global phenomenon, and that is what I think the original poster meant when he asked the question.

[balboa]

Western Pop music as someone said is omnipresent, and a global phenomenon, and that is what I think the original poster meant when he asked the question.

My question was not in regards to that as much as what another person said. Another question was asked about it someone who is brought up in music that is in odd meter, would they feel 4/4 is odd?

[Der Februar]

I couldn't explain it to you. Although for sure we hear a huge amount of music in 4/4 time, so that just becomes natural I suppose. Maybe someone could do a study where you raise a child but only let him listen to non-western music in non-common time signatures. Nature or nurture? Who knows.

Yeah, that'd be sweet. I never thought of how 4/4 music might sound weird to other cultures.

[jonescrusher]

Yeah, that'd be sweet. I never thought of how 4/4 music might sound weird to other cultures.

No, that would be child cruelty.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Also, you can't headband to a song in 11/8 ;-)

[AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken]

It's convention. My classical-music playing wife is always lecturing me on this. The great heroes of classical music devised the rules, and we've just been following those rules for so long that it seems natural.

As other posters have pointed out, in other cultures different meters seem like the natural and right way to play music. Like Middle Eastern music or African music. Which is why it sounds so cool when a musician who generally follows our rules throws some of that foreign influence into their sound.

[PQleyR]

Also, you can't headband to a song in 11/8 ;-)

Wanna bet? :D

I tried dancing to '9 to 5' by Dolly Parton in 9/4. Great fun.

Try doing that in 7/8, you're on the offbeat every other bar. People might look at you funny though. But that's the main reason I do it.

[PinkZepplin]

See, although four is 'balanced' to us, there are plenty of ethnic styles for whom four beats in a bar would seem very bizarre. Certain local styles have incredibly complex rhythmic structures that the Western World are only just beginning to understand; take for instance the clave. It's very difficult for us to to understand these forms of rhythm with our Euro-centric approach that has been prevalent since the very beginning of Western harmony structures around the time of the Benedictine Monks!

It's not that four is the 'easiest' rhythm to comprehend, it's that for 'us' it's the most common and the one with which we are brought up with, therefore it appears at natural as breathing. Not the case with other cultures.

Actually the clave is just a simple svncopated pattern that is actually shows up quite a bit in western music if you listen for it. There are tons and tons of songs witha 123 123 12 pulse. Not to mention the Clave is in 4/4 anyhow.

[Rhodri]

Actually the clave is just a simple svncopated pattern that is actually shows up quite a bit in western music if you listen for it. There are tons and tons of songs witha 123 123 12 pulse. Not to mention the Clave is in 4/4 anyhow.

the clave is in 4/4 but the people who play it hear it as either 2/3 or 3/2

they dont think of beats in a bar, just whether its a 2 or 3 first

not to mention the babies from those cultures are rocked by their mothers to the music just as we will probably have been rocked by our parents to 4/4 songs

i think its just how the babies grew up with it and it is natural to them

i dont think theres much truth in the balance argument although to us it feels balanced, to other people it feels weird

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

The point is, our music is also heard in a radically different way to the way other cultures may hear their music. Have you ever caught the beginning of a song and caught the beat the wrong way around? It's very disconcerting until we put the song 'the right way up' mentally. Even a radically different pattern of accents within common Western time signatures can confuse us! It's all down to the environment in which we are brought up in and how we listen to music as a result of that. Am I right in thinking that the 'clave' rhythm is a hemiola? As in 'America' from West-side Story? That would make sense seeing as the song is aimed to emulate Puerto-Rican music.

Being drummers, I would argue that the majority of people here actually listen to music in a very one-dimensional manner. It took me years to listen to music beyond just rhythm. Now I play a wide variety of instruments, this is no longer the case. But even within ourselves, we all hear music differently.

[stasz]

No, that would be child cruelty.

Well come on now... raising a child to some of Frank Zappa's more interesting compositions wouldn't be so cruel. In fact, it might make them turn out half decent.

[PinkZepplin]

the clave is in 4/4 but the people who play it hear it as either 2/3 or 3/2

they dont think of beats in a bar, just whether its a 2 or 3 first

not to mention the babies from those cultures are rocked by their mothers to the music just as we will probably have been rocked by our parents to 4/4 songs

i think its just how the babies grew up with it and it is natural to them

i dont think theres much truth in the balance argument although to us it feels balanced, to other people it feels weird

yah. but those 2/3 or 3/2 pulses are in 4/4. so they are just feeling syncopated 4/4 as oposed to straight 4/4. And I don't think Spanish mothers rock thier babies in a clave pattern, that would be not only impracticle, but also probably uncomfortable for both the mother and the child.

[aydee]

yah. but those 2/3 or 3/2 pulses are in 4/4. so they are just feeling syncopated 4/4 as oposed to straight 4/4. And I don't think Spanish mothers rock thier babies in a clave pattern, that would be not only impracticle, but also probably uncomfortable for both the mother and the child.

Lots lullabyes ( most of them? ) in 3/4, lads. In many languages too.

[Der Februar]

So is four/four still called common time in these other cultures where four/four isn't the most common?

[Wile E. Coyote]

yah. but those 2/3 or 3/2 pulses are in 4/4. so they are just feeling syncopated 4/4 as oposed to straight 4/4. And I don't think Spanish mothers rock thier babies in a clave pattern, that would be not only impracticle, but also probably uncomfortable for both the mother and the child.

I, as a spanish, didn't know anything about clave before I was like... 17, 18??? Clave is African, Cuban, Brazilian... nothing to do with Spain.
We have 3 in our blood (or 3:2 poly.)
I have a cuban friend that wakes his daughter up playing rumba clave. And think that cuban mothers don't listen to pop and rock as often as you might do.
And yes... The 4/4 pulse is still there (just listen to the cowbell).

[Rhodri]

i don't mean they literally get rocked to 3/2 or 2/3 but they grow up with it. when they are with their mum listening to music or whatever, she doesnt rigidly move to 4 when she dances

[dandadrummer]

Lots lullabyes ( most of them? ) in 3/4, lads. In many languages too.

haha i actually didn't know happy birthday was in 3/4 until a couple months ago

[Skitch]

I've always wondered why the number four is so important and common in music. Verses and choruses are commonly four lines long, riffs are usually made up of four chords and are repeated four times, even four/four time is considered common time. I know that things in fours just sounds good, but does anyone know why it sounds that way? Do you guys think it's just because people are used to hearing things in fours? Even if that were the case, someone needed to be the first to use groups of fours. What do you guys think?

You don't play enough country music. The phrases aren't always even and the chord progressions can be pretty strange - for example, I hear "They threw in some of those $20 chords" fairly often from seasoned country guitar pickers. Before the new generation of country singers, some of the phrasing was down right wierd with 2/4 bars and 9, 10, or 11 bar phrases in the verses.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[balboa]

You don't play enough country music. The phrases aren't always even and the chord progressions can be pretty strange - for example, I hear "They threw in some of those $20 chords" fairly often from seasoned country guitar pickers. Before the new generation of country singers, some of the phrasing was down right wierd with 2/4 bars and 9, 10, or 11 bar phrases in the verses.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

I agree, country can get quite complex in the guitar work

[Skitch]

Also, the 4/4 time signature being so popular is fairly new, historically speaking as 3/4 for waltzing was more common about one hundred years ago. Not that I was alive then.

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[oikroitnik]

I was once told that you cannot dance to 5/4 or is it 4/5 (eg.brubeck's take 5)
I had to try. As long as you keep both feet flat on the floor you can gyrate and throw shapes to your hearts content.
go four it.
daft=laugh=fun.
KH

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I was once told that you cannot to 5/4 or is it 4/5 (eg.brubeck's take 5)
I had to try. As long as you keep both feet flat on the floor you can gyrate and throw shapes to your hearts content.
go four it.
daft=laugh=fun.
KH

Any time signature can be danced to 5/4 is fairly straightforward. Even advanced polyrhythms can be danced to; it's just a pity the narrow rhythmic focus of most Western Music doesn't allow for us to naturally learn how to dance like that.