easy way to play odd time signitures? (need help)

[ArmedTadpole]

I can get down normal signitures like 3/4 4/4 and 4/6 but i am trying to get down weird ones, is there any possible help? i am trying 5/4 right now

[druid]

count in groups of 2 and 3....

5/4 or 5/8...count as 1,2 1,2,3.....
7/4/or 7/8 1,21,2 1,2,3.....

this usually helps to simplify but I have to admit when I was first learning them....I did it the hard way counting ALL beat numerically.

[ArmedTadpole]

i have been trying is counting out the whole set instead of breaking it down, so hopefully this will work out a lot better. thanks!

[balboa]

the only way to play certain things is by immersing yourself in them. example: if you wanted to play metal, would listen and learn metal tunes, then create your own. this is a natural process. when people want to learn different genres of music, they should not only learn sheet music, they should be an avid listener of it. I feel the same holds true for learning odd time signatures. My advice would be to listen to music that offers many and different odd time signatures. Just by hearing music in 5, 7 and 9 will make you more aware of the feel of them. Learn more odd time sigs, write out more odd time sigs and listen to more odd time sigs. This is how you learned 4/4 and 3/4 correct? It all applies the same!

[PinkZepplin]

the only way to play certain things is by immersing yourself in them. example: if you wanted to play metal, would listen and learn metal tunes, then create your own. this is a natural process. when people want to learn different genres of music, they should not only learn sheet music, they should be an avid listener of it. I feel the same holds true for learning odd time signatures. My advice would be to listen to music that offers many and different odd time signatures. Just by hearing music in 5, 7 and 9 will make you more aware of the feel of them. Learn more odd time sigs, write out more odd time sigs and listen to more odd time sigs. This is how you learned 4/4 and 3/4 correct? It all applies the same!

This is a good suggestion, but its missing one thing, examples of bands that use these time signatures.

Check out bands like Tool, Messhugah, Symphony X, Radiohead even has some odd time songs. And of course the ultimate 5/4 song, take 5 by the dave brubeck quartet(Learn from Joe Morello, he took the odd out of the odd time signature).

count in groups of 2 and 3....

5/4 or 5/8...count as 1,2 1,2,3.....
7/4/or 7/8 1,21,2 1,2,3.....

this usually helps to simplify but I have to admit when I was first learning them....I did it the hard way counting ALL beat numerically.

This is exactly how you want to go about it, but try and feel it more as a pulse then neccesarily counting it 1 2 1 2 1 2 3. You should be able to feel it as 1 2 and then a long 3. With 5/4 the pulse should be 1 2. as in 1, then a long 2, or a 1 and a short two. The reason you want to learn to feel the pulse is because when you start really getting into playing complex stuff in odd time signatures, you aren't always going to be able to count 1 2 1 2 3. Sometimes you just need to hear the long two. I hope that makes sense.

He's a little guide on how to count some odd time signature, and how they should feel.

5/4 (Think of as a measure of 2/4 followed by a measure of 3/4, but only feel the pulse of the 1 in each of the measures)
to count: 1 2 1 2 3
7/4 (Think of as a meausre of 4/4[or two measures of 2/4] followed by a measure of 3/4, and again, try to feel the pulse of the 1 predominately)
to count:
1 2 3 4 1 2 3
or
1 2 1 2 1 2 3
5/8 should feel like 2/4 with a long 2
to count:
1 + 2 + +
but try to feel the 1 long 2 pulse.
7/8 should feel like 3/4 with a long three
to count:
1 + 2 + 3 + +
again, try and feel the one two long three.



If this doesn't make any sense i can write it out for you.

[Wavelength]

Just spend hours and hours working out different phrases and combinations you can play in that time signature. Try different subdivisions, try playing over the barline and see how it behaves in different tempos. Learning it isn't easy, but once you develop a feel for it it will seem easy.

[zambizzi]

I found it easiest to use a metronome, preferably one that will "speak" in numbers, i.e. "one", "two", "three", etc. My Roland practice pad has a detachable metronome that does this. I set it to the time sig. I want to experiment with and hash out a simple groove. Once I've internalized it, I start improvising and switching things up...adding fills, whatever.

[jay norem]

I can get down normal signitures like 3/4 4/4 and 4/6 but i am trying to get down weird ones, is there any possible help? i am trying 5/4 right now

There aren't any weird time signatures. It's all pulse, you see. Don't try to syncopate, try instead to play THROUGH the 7/4 or whatever, keeping the pulse but not PLAYING 7/4. That, to me, is the trick. You've got to feel it in groups of 4, or 8, or however many bars to get the pulse of it going, just like you do in 4/4 time, only playing across the bar-line a lot more. It's the pulse of it, you see.
Anything you're doing in 4/4 can be done in any meter. It just takes a little creative application to the concept of keeping time in an asymetrical way. I love playing in odd meters; it's about the most fun a drummer can have.

[brittc89]

4/6 sounds like a pretty odd time signature to me. That would mean there are 4 beats in a measure and the 6th note gets the beat. Did you mean 6/4?

[sssssssss]

It's always quite easy to play odd times if you play musically and not just for the mathematical fun of it, because you'll always have to feel and hear the beat you're playing. So when playing music it really comes down to expression. If it is in any way expressive, you'll easily get it in your mind and from their anything should work fine.
However the counting stuff is excellent practice in order to develop this kind of thinking, because first, it makes you hear and really internalize any odd time pattern and than, after a wile of practice, it really makes you hear which of the patterns you hear in your mind really are artistically relevant and which are only mathematical show-off. That will really make you focus on just that which has got artistic flavor to it.
The basic idea that you have to keep in mind at the beginning is, like druid said, that any odd-time signature is actually a combination of binary and ternary meters.

[jonescrusher]

4/6 sounds like a pretty odd time signature to me. That would mean there are 4 beats in a measure and the 6th note gets the beat. Did you mean 6/4?

Was thinking the same thing. 4/6 is a world i didn't know existed.

[PinkZepplin]

There aren't any weird time signatures. It's all pulse, you see. Don't try to syncopate, try instead to play THROUGH the 7/4 or whatever, keeping the pulse but not PLAYING 7/4. That, to me, is the trick. You've got to feel it in groups of 4, or 8, or however many bars to get the pulse of it going, just like you do in 4/4 time, only playing across the bar-line a lot more. It's the pulse of it, you see.
Anything you're doing in 4/4 can be done in any meter. It just takes a little creative application to the concept of keeping time in an asymetrical way. I love playing in odd meters; it's about the most fun a drummer can have.

no offense dude, but this is terrible advice. 7/4 is not written as 4/4 for a reason, you're confusing playing over the barline with playing odd-time. I see what you are trying to say, but that is not how you learn to play in odd-time.

[druid]

Yeah that is kind of "Neil like" advice...once he started playing thru odd times.( Oh around test for Echo) instead of playing grooves in odd time. But it is not the same as working out actualy odd time grooves. Both are ways to make music but they are definitely NOT the same. And yes...there are odd times. There are ways to play in odd times and try to make them feel like 4/4 and people like Vinnie Coliauta have done this but that is only ONE way to approach things and should not be mistaken for the ONLY way to approach things.

Learn how to count....understand the count intellectually ...learn how to hear them (listen)...learn how they feel when you play them...then mix up a bunch of different things. I had an odd book called "Time Capsule" that was really good...( and some tough reading) that really helped me understand much more.

[cp84]

Hi,

Rather than count it I try and feel it. I try to think of an odd time signature like an even time signature but one that sounds like a broken record.

So for 5/4 I think in 6/4 but that I'm coming in one measure earlier than expected. Kind of like a broken record :)

The same for 7/4. I think in 8/4 but finish a measure earlier than normal. I think after a while of playing in odd time signatures you can just feel it.

I think it ultimately just comes down to listening to a lot of stuff in funny time signatures and practise practise practise :)

[jay norem]

no offense dude, but this is terrible advice. 7/4 is not written as 4/4 for a reason, you're confusing playing over the barline with playing odd-time. I see what you are trying to say, but that is not how you learn to play in odd-time.

7/4 is not written as 4/4 because it has 7 beats ber measure. Period. Playing a repeating one-bar pattern in any meter on the drums uncreative and boring. Syncopating odd meters on the drums is uncreative and boring. I say throw the literal meaning of the meter out, and play the pulse.
As to your example of playing in 5/4:
"5/4 (Think of as a measure of 2/4 followed by a measure of 3/4, but only feel the pulse of the 1 in each of the measures)
to count: 1 2 1 2 3"
It's actually better to count 1 2 3 1 2 (kick the hats on the 2's as Morello does on Take 5), if counting is how you choose to aproach it. But counting beats to learn odd meters is starting a bad habit. Do you count in 4/4? I would hope not. So why count 5 or 7 or whatever? Leaning to feel the pulse of any meter has to be the ultimate goal.

[PinkZepplin]

7/4 is not written as 4/4 because it has 7 beats ber measure. Period. Playing a repeating one-bar pattern in any meter on the drums uncreative and boring. Syncopating odd meters on the drums is uncreative and boring. I say throw the literal meaning of the meter out, and play the pulse.
As to your example of playing in 5/4:
"5/4 (Think of as a measure of 2/4 followed by a measure of 3/4, but only feel the pulse of the 1 in each of the measures)
to count: 1 2 1 2 3"
It's actually better to count 1 2 3 1 2 (kick the hats on the 2's as Morello does on Take 5), if counting is how you choose to aproach it. But counting beats to learn odd meters is starting a bad habit. Do you count in 4/4? I would hope not. So why count 5 or 7 or whatever? Leaning to feel the pulse of any meter has to be the ultimate goal.

Actually wether or not you count it 12123 or 12312 depends on the feel of the piece. In take five it would be 12312. but in many other grooves the pulse is 12123.

And how is counting a bad habit? Seriously? You just said counting beats is a bad habit.

and why are you telling me that 7/4 is not written as 4/4 because it has 7 beats ber measure, i know this man, you were the one who was confusing the subject.

[balboa]

Check out Bill Bruford, King Crimson, Dream Theater, Rush, ELP, for some bands who are real smooth with odd time sigs and phrasings. You could even count 12345 if you wanted! just treat 4 and 5 like 1 and 2

[a1DrummerT]

I can get down normal signitures like 3/4 4/4 and 4/6 but i am trying to get down weird ones, is there any possible help? i am trying 5/4 right now

5/4 is more common than 4/6. and easier to play. I haven't read past this post yet so i assume it was a typo???

[PinkZepplin]

4/6 is definately a typo and if not, its a huge misunderstanding of what a time signature actually is.

[a1DrummerT]

Hi,



I think it ultimately just comes down to listening to a lot of stuff in funny time signatures and practise practise practise :)

Yea. I have always liked Tool, but when I began to incessantly listen to them they began to feel more and more familiar.

To explain my process of learning odd meters I will use guitar hero (haha).

If you are terrible and try to play expert then the notes seem to go so fast that you cannot keep up.

Once you are familiar with expert, the notes seem to have slowed down to where you can understand them.

But yea...just listen to alot of odd metered stuff, over and over, more and more.

and yea someone said counting is a bad habit. NOOO. Count if you need to, but eventually internalize it.

ALSO, someone mentioned throwing out "time signatures" as they are known and just feel the pulse. This is a good start but eventually you WILL have to understand these things you play.

Begin by (yes listening to odd metered songs) just taking 4/4 and cutting out the last eighth note or 16th note. or maybe take 3/4 and add the first two beats after it before repeating sorta like 12312 12312. Just mess around with them untill you feel normal outside of 4/4, then begin to count recount and understand all these new things.

Once you've done that, the internal counting should have begun and you can start to play and understand at the same time, just as you do --or hopefully do-- in 4/4 right now.
You knwo where you are in each measure and dont feel aquward play consistenly in it.

my bad on some spelling haha

Good Luck

[jay norem]

Actually wether or not you count it 12123 or 12312 depends on the feel of the piece. In take five it would be 12312. but in many other grooves the pulse is 12123.

And how is counting a bad habit? Seriously? You just said counting beats is a bad habit.

and why are you telling me that 7/4 is not written as 4/4 because it has 7 beats ber measure, i know this man, you were the one who was confusing the subject.

Yes, I'm serious, counting beats is a bad habit and if you have to count beats then you'll never be anything but a beat-counter. Not good drumming and not good musicianship.
Confusing the subject? You don't seem to know what you're talking about here, mate.

[aydee]

Actually wether or not you count it 12123 or 12312 depends on the feel of the piece. In take five it would be 12312. but in many other grooves the pulse is 12123.

And how is counting a bad habit? Seriously? You just said counting beats is a bad habit.

and why are you telling me that 7/4 is not written as 4/4 because it has 7 beats ber measure, i know this man, you were the one who was confusing the subject.

Well, Jay is right in a broader sense. Counting is a tool to understand the pulse of music, but once you internalize it you have to feel the odd time signature as a riff, a melodic line, or a muscial movement. If you dont, the playing tends to be stiff, mechanical, repetitive..unmusical.

[brittc89]

It's actually better to count 1 2 3 1 2 (kick the hats on the 2's as Morello does on Take 5), if counting is how you choose to aproach it.

Im sorry, but you just told someone they didnt sound like they know what theyre talking about(if I read the tiny print correctly), so it seems very odd for me to see you type something like this. Why is it better to count 12312 instead of 12123 of 12121 or 11111 if any of those are what the phrasing of the music lends itself to. Take 5 is one tune man. It is not the basis of all 5/4 patterns. The subdivisions should almost serve, in my opinion, as a clave that is much easier to follow than just feeling the pulse of the 1 of each measure (which by the way, would be so incredibly difficult at very high tempos or very slow tempos, if Im interpreting your methodology correctly). That clave, or natural pattern created by the groupings of two and three within the measure makes the focus of your playing apparent and gives a solid foundation to play over polyrhythmically or over the bar line or whatever you want to do with the time.

[PinkZepplin]

Yes, I'm serious, counting beats is a bad habit and if you have to count beats then you'll never be anything but a beat-counter. Not good drumming and not good musicianship.
Confusing the subject? You don't seem to know what you're talking about here, mate.

i'm not even going to dignify this post with an actual response. you clearly don't know who you're talking to, what you're talking about, or how rediculous this post sounds.

[Wavelength]

Yes, I'm serious, counting beats is a bad habit and if you have to count beats then you'll never be anything but a beat-counter.

Yeah, I agree. Also, if you have to practice technique, you'll never learn good technique.

...makes perfect sense, right? Counting any time signature is extremely beneficial (if not vital) in the learning process. It's more effective to first learn the concept on an intellectual level, and internalise the feel through practice. Skipping the counting phase and trying to play difficult things by feel is like climbing a mountain ass-first.

[druid]

Yes, I'm serious, counting beats is a bad habit and if you have to count beats then you'll never be anything but a beat-counter. Not good drumming and not good musicianship.
Confusing the subject? You don't seem to know what you're talking about here, mate.

Ridiculous....anyone well versed in odd times knows you need to start by counting ...then eventually you can feel it intuitively. And there are a variety of odd times and situations in music that CANNOT be learned by rote or by "just feelin it man"....sorry. Frank Zappa's bands were perhaps the most well versed in odd times and you can bet they all knew how to count, how to read and how to feel odd times. How can you play 19/16 without breaking it down and building it back up?

There is much more to odd times than Tool and Metal bands many of who are not counting....that is hardly the Apex of all Odd timesignature playing. Classical music and composers such as Stravinsky were the masters of this stuff. think those musicians are "just feeling in man"...? C'mon. It takes all approaches to truly master this stuff.

[dcrigger]

Just thought I'd chime in and add to Druid's post - with odd times, you just don't start with counting - counting is part of the process at every level.

I get this misconception from some posts that some how counting is an external process to be abandoned as soon as possible in favor of some how internalizing and just "feeling" a rhythm - this really applies to all playing, not just odd times. By I believe the counting - the knowledge of where you are in the rhythm at all times - has to always continue... at least at some level. In fact it is the counting that gets internalized - which completely is different than abandoned or ceased.

You want the counting to be so second nature, that you are able to just not pay attention to it - unless you need and bam! - there it is, keeping you straight on where you are. To me this defines real internalizing of a rhythm or a part - it's not that the counting isn't there, it's just that it's to the point of being second nature.

And the way to get is to never purposely stop counting - count, and count, and keeping counting till the counting recedes to the back of your mind by itself. If it hasn't gone there by itself, then you haven't been counting enough. :-)

One other thing - there seem to be many who believe that put a more even time signature over a more complex one is a shortcut or somehow hipper path to mastering odd meters. It isn't.

First off what, for example Vinnie did on Ten Summoner's Tales wasn't putting 4/4 across 5/8 or 7/8 - it was putting 5/4 over 5/8 and 7/4 over 7/8. And the important secret to those two grooves - what was is contrary to this shortcut myth - is that he isn't playing primarily in 7/4 and accenting 7/8 against it. No, he is clearly - at the center of his groove and time/feel - playing in 7/8! With the 7/4 part being the odd unsyncopated sycopatation that he lays on top.

Which is totally a different thing - one that demands first and foremost being able to play and function truly and comfortably in 7/8. Not rely on it "work it self out" or "eventually come around to the beat". 7/8 is a real time signature - just like 4/4 - and needs no other underlying or overriding pulses to "make it work".

In a nutshell - to really play odd meters well - don't start with the 7/4 over 7/8 stuff. It may seem more accessible and it may be - to listen to! Not to play. Start with grooves that are really in a meter and build from there.

My 2 cents - for what its worth,

David

[PinkZepplin]

You want the counting to be so second nature, that you are able to just not pay attention to it - unless you need and bam! - there it is, keeping you straight on where you are. To me this defines real internalizing of a rhythm or a part - it's not that the counting isn't there, it's just that it's to the point of being second nature.

And the way to get is to never purposely stop counting - count, and count, and keeping counting till the counting recedes to the back of your mind by itself. If it hasn't gone there by itself, then you haven't been counting enough. :-)


thank you. at least someone here has thier head on straight.

[jonescrusher]

Train your ears and brain to feel out the first beat of every bar, whatever the time signature. If counting numbers out loud or internally works for you then great, others (often those without formal training) will think in terms of grouping patterns, maybe singing or scatting them out-loud or in the mind. Best way to get comfortable is to sit down and play one time signature strictly for a prolonged period.
From the outset, avoid over-intellectualising the issue of odd time, as you run the risk of hurting your confidence in approaching odd time in the long run.

[dcrigger]

Train your ears and brain to feel out the first beat of every bar, whatever the time signature. If counting numbers out loud or internally works for you then great, others (often those without formal training) will think in terms of grouping patterns, maybe singing or scatting them out-loud or in the mind. Best way to get comfortable is to sit down and play one time signature strictly for a prolonged period.
From the outset, avoid over-intellectualising the issue of odd time, as you run the risk of hurting your confidence in approaching odd time in the long run.

I don't know....

I'm yet to play with a self-taught musician that a) couldn't tap their foot to the pulse (most plain ol' folks can do that) and b) isn't very comfortable with the process of counting along with the taps - 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 - as their way of using their ears and brain to feel where "one" is. So I don't think much distinction needs to be made between those that might of "studied private" versus those who didn't. In 4/4, even if we all - even those that don't know the term "time signature" - count "1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4"

As far as confidence builder go - the best one regarding "getting" odd meters was suggested by someone way early in the thread - and it really is "Odd Time Rule #1". No matter if it's 5/4. 7/8 or 33/16 - use your ears to listen to the accents and pulses of the music and then divide the meter into "2's" and "3's". Do that and odd meters will fall right into place - Don't and they will be very confusing and frustrating... for anybody.

2's and 3's are really the core of it - regardless of one's previous level (or kind) of training.

David

[jonescrusher]

I don't know....

I'm yet to play with a self-taught musician that a) couldn't tap their foot to the pulse (most plain ol' folks can do that) and b) isn't very comfortable with the process of counting along with the taps - 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 - as their way of using their ears and brain to feel where "one" is. So I don't think much distinction needs to be made between those that might of "studied private" versus those who didn't. In 4/4, even if we all - even those that don't know the term "time signature" - count "1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4"

As far as confidence builder go - the best one regarding "getting" odd meters was suggested by someone way early in the thread - and it really is "Odd Time Rule #1". No matter if it's 5/4. 7/8 or 33/16 - use your ears to listen to the accents and pulses of the music and then divide the meter into "2's" and "3's". Do that and odd meters will fall right into place - Don't and they will be very confusing and frustrating... for anybody.

2's and 3's are really the core of it - regardless of one's previous level (or kind) of training.

David

I suppose my point was that some players will simply be able to feel out odd times, without especial knowledge of time signatures and subdivisions. Think how many 'weekend warriors' know their way around White Room or Take 5.

[druid]

you can feel your way around it....however I really think the key is to understand it first. It will take more work but the rewards are there on the other end. White Room is a good example....the more well versed you are the more you can do with it. I have noticed with players ( guitarists included) who don't understand what is behind the whole thing and don't count fall into patterns often and it can inhibit their own playing and ideas. Whereas on the other hand if you really understand the counting on White Room you are much more free to try new fills without the fear of turning the beat around. I have really noticed with other musicians who have not spent as much time on odd times there can be an intimidation factor for them which is a shame because they are really good players! One band I played in was kind of freaked out by "Take Five" because they were so used to swinging in 4/4 for example. I think of counting odd times as the basics of understanding it. Just like with swing early on I did not undertand it so I was somewhat intimidated and found myself playing the "same ole stuff" once I really worked it and listened ( in a studying sense not a passive one) I started to get the freedom of discipline and knowledge.Counting can give you a way to "own" those odd times rather than "get thru them".I hope I am making sense here.

[jay norem]

I suppose my point was that some players will simply be able to feel out odd times, without especial knowledge of time signatures and subdivisions. Think how many 'weekend warriors' know their way around White Room or Take 5.

Exactly. Why shouldn't they? Why shouldn't all drummers? It's just playing the drums. And I maintain that you will never be as fluid in, say, 7/4 as you are in 4/4 if you have to count the beats.
Who can't count to five, or seven, or thirteen? Everyone can. Why should it be so difficult to play in these meters? Maybe it's because everything is in 4/4 and anything that isn't seems strange, maybe not, I don't know, but there is a basic "playing of the drums" that we all do and know and that's what makes us drummers, right? So when I see anyone say that it's a big deal to play in odd meters and they throw up all these subdivisions and all that over-intellectualized academic rubbish I have to wonder why that should be. It's not some esoteric closely guarded secret, nor is it the domain of a chosen few. It is simply playing the drums. And it's easy, just as easy as playing in 4/4 is.

[m1ck]

Listen to some traditional Middle Eastern percussion if you want to get a feel for 5s, 7s, and 9s.

[m1ck]

... Who can't count to five, or seven, or thirteen? Everyone can. Why should it be so difficult to play in these meters? ...

That's kinda like saying: "Stupid question." But if he's asking it, it's legitimate.

Odd count rhythms feel very different from what most westerners are used to. Try to teach a novice a basic even count rhythm, then an odd count. See which one he picks up faster. Rhythm is more than counting, it's a feel thing. Yes, anyone can count to seven, but it may take practice to lock in a groove if someone's not used to it.

[Tryitagain]

Im sorry, but you just told someone they didnt sound like they know what theyre talking about(if I read the tiny print correctly), so it seems very odd for me to see you type something like this. Why is it better to count 12312 instead of 12123 of 12121 or 11111 if any of those are what the phrasing of the music lends itself to. Take 5 is one tune man. It is not the basis of all 5/4 patterns. The subdivisions should almost serve, in my opinion, as a clave that is much easier to follow than just feeling the pulse of the 1 of each measure (which by the way, would be so incredibly difficult at very high tempos or very slow tempos, if Im interpreting your methodology correctly). That clave, or natural pattern created by the groupings of two and three within the measure makes the focus of your playing apparent and gives a solid foundation to play over polyrhythmically or over the bar line or whatever you want to do with the time.
This makes perfect sense... the subdivisions of 2 & 3 must follow the pattern or "clave" of the music. If you're playing something in 7/8, you can play 1212123 and it will mathematecally fit, but the music may call for a 1231231 or some other combination in order to flow. I'm also a big believer in counting while playing odd time... or at least have the ability to. I'm to the point where I can groove in 7 without thinking TOO much about counting, but you better believe that if I'm playing a fill that begins,for example, on the "and" of 5 and ends on the "and" of 3 on the next measure, I'm counting!!

[aydee]

Since this thread is turning into a bit of a free for all, I urge some of you mathematical geniuses to foray into the general principles of Indian percussion, if only to understand how much more complex time signature can get from what we are discussing here. And yet Indian rhythm is not counted in a pure mathematical sense alone. It is converted into sounds ( bols ) which make it a linear riff. Subdivisions flow out of this quite naturally.
Indian rhythm believes that the space between 2 notes is infinite ( not necessarily evenly divided halfs, quarters , 16ths, 32, 64 etc...)
No charts/transcriptions either . None of it is written. It is part of an oral tradition that is passed from teacher to student.

My point here is that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat ( no offence to KC's riveting cat thread... ).
There's no oracle or holy grail other than to understand and study your instrument as deeply as you can, and then just play music.

[jay norem]

but you better believe that if I'm playing a fill that begins,for example, on the "and" of 5 and ends on the "and" of 3 on the next measure, I'm counting!!

So you're counting while you're playing the fill? My question is, why launch into such a fill if you need to count? What you're describing is crossing the bar, and to pull that off requires a comfortable feel for the meter that is beyond counting beats. Not that it's that difficult, it's not, but the way you describe it makes it sound difficult.
Players of other instruments do not go to all these great lengths to play in odd meters, they just play them. So why is it that drummers are supposed to agonize over this?
The other thing I find fairly silly about all this is that this discussion seems to place the drums in a vacuum. But all of us play with other musicians, so there's going to be a bass player, a piano player, a horn player, whatever, playing in these meters as well. You're going to have to play with them, with the music that's being played, all the changes and phrases and dynamics, and if anyone thinks that they can get throught all that by just sitting there counting "1-2-3-4-5-6-7" then they've never, I mean never, played odd meters with a band.
The question was "what is the easiest way to play odd time signatures." The hardest way, it seems to me, is to have to count through the thing. Nobody starts playing the drums counting "1-2-3-4," just as nobody picks up their first novel and recites the alphabet to themselves.
Here's the thing: if you're far enough along the way to start playing in odd meters then there's no reason to revert back to the stuff you learned in kindergarten. And I find the idea of counting-beats-while-playing to be, well, ridiculous. However, if anyone can show me an example of any major "name" player doing that, then I will unreservedly stand corrected.

[dcrigger]

So you're counting while you're playing the fill? My question is, why launch into such a fill if you need to count? What you're describing is crossing the bar, and to pull that off requires a comfortable feel for the meter that is beyond counting beats. Not that it's that difficult, it's not, but the way you describe it makes it sound difficult.
Players of other instruments do not go to all these great lengths to play in odd meters, they just play them. So why is it that drummers are supposed to agonize over this?
The other thing I find fairly silly about all this is that this discussion seems to place the drums in a vacuum. But all of us play with other musicians, so there's going to be a bass player, a piano player, a horn player, whatever, playing in these meters as well. You're going to have to play with them, with the music that's being played, all the changes and phrases and dynamics, and if anyone thinks that they can get throught all that by just sitting there counting "1-2-3-4-5-6-7" then they've never, I mean never, played odd meters with a band.
The question was "what is the easiest way to play odd time signatures." The hardest way, it seems to me, is to have to count through the thing. Nobody starts playing the drums counting "1-2-3-4," just as nobody picks up their first novel and recites the alphabet to themselves.
Here's the thing: if you're far enough along the way to start playing in odd meters then there's no reason to revert back to the stuff you learned in kindergarten. And I find the idea of counting-beats-while-playing to be, well, ridiculous. However, if anyone can show me an example of any major "name" player doing that, then I will unreservedly stand corrected.

:-) :-) :-)

W e l l . . . . I don't know about "major name player" but I'll humbly volunteer an example...me. Again maybe not a "major" name - but I did do a five year stint (including the last two albums) with the Don Ellis' big band. As far as the early development of the use of odd meters in jazz, I know many would sandwich the music of Don Ellis right in with Dave Brubeck and Mahavishnu as the three most significant pioneers of their use.

Landing the drum chair left open by Ralph Humphrey (who was off to play with Zappa) basically launched my career. And from my first concert with the band at 18, actually thirty-five years ago this month, to the reunion/tribute concert (Don passed away at age 44 in 1978) we had just a few months ago - I can tell you that every concert there were many, many horn players and rhythm section players juggling solos, chord changes, tricky shout choruses, whatever - while, at least at times, very much counting their butts off. Including yours truly.

So yes, "real men" do count - when they need to. And they do often need to.

But yes, that doesn't mean that everyone is counting every section aloud, all the time. It is much more like my earlier post - if you're comfortable knowing where your at - counting melts into the subconscious. But if your the least bit unsure - or just want some extra assurance... like when you're playing an multi-bar in-time solo in 9 or 17, and a 25 piece band is waiting, anxious to come in on the downbeat following said solo, and you're recording a live album or a TV show! Then counting can be quite useful.

As for counting taking you "out of the moment" or reducing your ability to interact, play in the moment, etc. - no, that's just not acceptable. In the situations I'm talking about, you have to always be putting out your very best stuff.....

But you also can't be making mistakes either. And as someone whose been playing odd meters for a long, long time, I still live in and grew up in a western world, where 4/4 is still way more ingrained than 13/8. So when it comes to "blowing" across 16 bars - I have to pay a bit more attention than just feeling it as I would be more able to in 4/4. Because I just haven't played as many hours in 13 as I have in 4 - and even as much as I play in 13, I'm still not likely to.

Folks, I'm sorry to go off on a bit of a rant here - but counting is not some affectation of formal training or the solely for the beginner. Counting is probably the most basic, universal rhythmic technique - shared by virtually every culture's music.

What culture doesn't arrange their music over repetitive rhythmic chunks (like what we call bars). I mean, virtually every music shares the concept of the recurring "one".

And sorry Aydee, the "bols" of Indian percussion aren't really about counting the meter itself. They are really vocalizations of the sounds that are used to make up rhythms - rhythms that can be sung (bols) or played on the drum. But those rhythms are played over a meter that is very much like western meters - to the point of being counted virtually the same way - 4's, 5's, 7's etc.

Actually for a great example of rhythmic heavy weights counting on stage - go to You Tube and check out some of the videos with Ravi Shankar, Alla Rahka and/or Zakir Hussein. During tabla solos - or particularly through "bols" solos - you'll see this great Indian hand counting method. Basically a combination of hand gesture and finger touches that help one "count" while the mouth is busy performing the bols. Great stuff.

So whether we are conservatory trained, figured it all out from records, or picked it up by copping from other players - or a bit of all of the above; isn't our main job being the keeper of the "one" (whether we play it or not) and the pulses in-between? Don't we play the instrument that most of everyone else - players and listeners alike - use to know where "they're" at in the bar? I mean, we are "The Keepers of THE COUNT". How do drummers come to look upon the practice of counting with such indifference, or even disdain? I don't get it.

Counting. Guys! It is the foundation on which everything we do is built.

David

[aydee]

Wow,David, of course you would know, if you've worked with Don Ellis!! He studied with Rao and wrote a book about indian music for the jazz musician, didnt he?

I guess what I meant by bols ( sounds... I was trying to keep it simple ), is actually taals, which are, as you say, rhythmic patterns based on a series of bols strung together to form a melodic line in a sense. I'm not discounting counting ( no pun intended ), but merely suggesting that one needs to reach beyond it eventually, as in Indian, clave, mid-eastern, african music.

I think what Jay is trying to suggest ( as you are ) is that counting needs to become second nature to truly express yourself musically.

Yup, everything in this world is a pattern and if you put enough clusters of them together/ overlapped or strung together, you will certainly start to see new shapes.

[lildrummerboy827]

The only thing you can do is listen to a lot of odd-time based music. Try a bit of Dream Theater, Meshuggah, Tool if you prefer rock over other genres.

[dcrigger]

Wow,David, of course you would know, if you've worked with Don Ellis!! He studied with Rao and wrote a book about indian music for the jazz musician, didnt he?

A couple of them. Not so much about Indian music per se, but more how the rhythmic concepts can be applied to jazz. And yes, he studied with Rao and then had a band with him called The Hindustani Jazz Sextet (which never recorded sadly). Way before my time - so I never got to see them.

I guess what I meant by bols ( sounds... I was trying to keep it simple ), is actually taals, which are, as you say, rhythmic patterns based on a series of bols strung together to form a melodic line in a sense. I'm not discounting counting ( no pun intended ), but merely suggesting that one needs to reach beyond it eventually, as in Indian, clave, mid-eastern, african music.

Though we are basically agreeing, I would be offer that "one needs to build upon" as much as "reach beyond". Though this may seem just semantics - the course of this thread suggests that it may not be.

Some journeys require the casting off of the old to find the new - where I think rhythmic exploration is more one of building, refining and yes, expanding as well. A journey where nothing is discarded. As no matter how sophisticated one becomes building and expanding upward and outward, great music is always ready to be made with the simplest, and most basic elements as well.


I think the same applies to technique. As we improve, we don't think about hand positions; or basic independence issues as they, yes, become more second nature. But that doesn't mean, they are no longer concerns.


I think what Jay is trying to suggest ( as you are ) is that counting needs to become second nature to truly express yourself musically.

Yes, I understand that. But second nature does not mean not counting at all - or that while counting one cannot be truly expressing yourself - which are really the points that have been stressed so strongly. Points that I clearly don't agree with.



Yup, everything in this world is a pattern and if you put enough clusters of them together/ overlapped or strung together, you will certainly start to see new shapes.

At which point, if some one asks me to play along - my mind will immediately start dissecting those large new shapes into - 2's and 3's. :-)

David

[Tryitagain]

So you're counting while you're playing the fill? My question is, why launch into such a fill if you need to count? What you're describing is crossing the bar, and to pull that off requires a comfortable feel for the meter that is beyond counting beats. Not that it's that difficult, it's not, but the way you describe it makes it sound difficult.
Players of other instruments do not go to all these great lengths to play in odd meters, they just play them. So why is it that drummers are supposed to agonize over this?
The other thing I find fairly silly about all this is that this discussion seems to place the drums in a vacuum. But all of us play with other musicians, so there's going to be a bass player, a piano player, a horn player, whatever, playing in these meters as well. You're going to have to play with them, with the music that's being played, all the changes and phrases and dynamics, and if anyone thinks that they can get throught all that by just sitting there counting "1-2-3-4-5-6-7" then they've never, I mean never, played odd meters with a band.
The question was "what is the easiest way to play odd time signatures." The hardest way, it seems to me, is to have to count through the thing. Nobody starts playing the drums counting "1-2-3-4," just as nobody picks up their first novel and recites the alphabet to themselves.
Here's the thing: if you're far enough along the way to start playing in odd meters then there's no reason to revert back to the stuff you learned in kindergarten. And I find the idea of counting-beats-while-playing to be, well, ridiculous. However, if anyone can show me an example of any major "name" player doing that, then I will unreservedly stand corrected.
I guess I've just never really found counting while playing terribly difficult. And if I can count while I play, I can play a truly bizzarre time signature without having to practice hours upon hours trying to get a "comfortable feel" for that signature so I can play without counting...

[druid]

So you're counting while you're playing the fill? My question is, why launch into such a fill if you need to count? What you're describing is crossing the bar, and to pull that off requires a comfortable feel for the meter that is beyond counting beats. Not that it's that difficult, it's not, but the way you describe it makes it sound difficult.
Players of other instruments do not go to all these great lengths to play in odd meters, they just play them. So why is it that drummers are supposed to agonize over this?
The other thing I find fairly silly about all this is that this discussion seems to place the drums in a vacuum. But all of us play with other musicians, so there's going to be a bass player, a piano player, a horn player, whatever, playing in these meters as well. You're going to have to play with them, with the music that's being played, all the changes and phrases and dynamics, and if anyone thinks that they can get throught all that by just sitting there counting "1-2-3-4-5-6-7" then they've never, I mean never, played odd meters with a band.
The question was "what is the easiest way to play odd time signatures." The hardest way, it seems to me, is to have to count through the thing. Nobody starts playing the drums counting "1-2-3-4," just as nobody picks up their first novel and recites the alphabet to themselves.
Here's the thing: if you're far enough along the way to start playing in odd meters then there's no reason to revert back to the stuff you learned in kindergarten. And I find the idea of counting-beats-while-playing to be, well, ridiculous. However, if anyone can show me an example of any major "name" player doing that, then I will unreservedly stand corrected.
Major names? You are kidding I hope? How about these Bozzio,Coliauta,Wackerman,Morgenstein.....just a few> Let me put it to you this way you absolutely would not be hired to play say Zappa's gig with out the ability to read, understand and play odd times. The ability to read odd times and play parts that are not necessarily repetitive grooves within those odds times can only happen if you understand counting. So while you may trick yourself by playing rote examples of Tool grooves that in no way makes anyone a "master" of odd times. people try too hard I think to oversimplify everything. The examples of non western drumming are a perfect example. Drummers playing tabla and some types of western percussion must learn for YEARS prior to even getting a drum in their hands.

You can get to a certain point with the non counting rote way of learning but I doubt you can do much in the way of improvising or soloing within a odd meter without understanding it first. There is nothing wrong with "intellectualizing" anything with regard to the art of drumming...that does not mean you are always in the state of a scientific discovery when you play...but the foundation will get you much further along if it is strong. Sorry but this is just the truth.

Example I filled in with a band I do not normally play with this past weekend. It went really well and the guitarist was all happy about it saying "I didn't hear you miss a beat"...I told him "hey I missed plenty of things but I know how to cover" he said he wished he knew how to cover....the basis of what I was saying though is I don't lose where I am and am not playing without an awareness of where I am ...even in a 4/4 groove and I know how to get out of something when it is not working. This comes from understanding, experience and time. And frankly I can hear when someone is counting and when someone is just playing by rote...it usually shows up when there is a mistake and they stumble not knowing what to do to get out of it.

Now throwing in the idea of odd times using a method of counting such as 2s and 3s it at the very least allows you to latch onto something. I would never depend on a bass player or guitarist or definitely NOT a singer to automatically KNOW how to hold together the odd time signature. That really is for the drummer to lay the foundation ( along with the bass player).

Also the idea of playing odd times by rote completely goes out the window if you are working in a percussion ensemble or any style that is written i.e.: classical etc. In those situations a true understanding is without any doubt needed. All of drumming is not sitting down and just grooving with band mates and the more you realize music is broader and ALL styles have connections and links the better for you. I have worked on snare solos written in odd times and there simply is no rote pattern to latch onto....you can't just feel your way through that material but working on that made me understand how it all works even more.

To sum up I feel the understanding of it all is important. Learning to count will NEVER take away from your ability to groove in odd times. NOT knowing how to count CAN get you lost if you really don't understand where you are in a measure or how to get out of a problem when it happens. And yeah it takes work but in this day in age of Guitar Hero and everything in life being oversimplified, I think that is a good thing. Knowledge is Power.

[Muckster]

Odd times certainly should not be a mystery. You have to develop by taking the time to read and count out the odd time signatures and you will then develop the feel for the time.
People with other cultural backgrounds may find odd times easier than most westerners because that is what they grew up around musically.

Who here has to actually count out 4/4? Most likely everyone has a feel for 4/4 becuase that is what they have been exposed to.

As you practice odd times more and more, you will develop the feel.

[aydee]

if some one asks me to play along - my mind will immediately start dissecting those large new shapes into - 2's and 3's. :-)

David

Well said, sir.



2020202020202020

[NUTHA JASON]

have a read here:

http://jasonhorsler.tripod.com/id84.html

and for someexercises here:

http://jasonhorsler.tripod.com/id95.html

j

[pbm2112]

I can get down normal signitures like 3/4 4/4 and 4/6 but i am trying to get down weird ones, is there any possible help? i am trying 5/4 right now

All this talk of numbers and counting isn't a specialist drum mystery or esoteric and academic issue. Thinking of the numbers makes it EASY.

At the most basic level, you can play a bar in 4 and a bar in 3. Then play one bar of 4 followed by a bar of 3 and you can play 7. It's that easy - you can already do it - no mystery! Where a little bit of counting can help is if you want to do a drum fill when it's easy to get lost. But if you are playing in 7 and know how to fill in 4, play a rhythm for 3 beats (which you already know) and then fill for 4 beats (which you can already do). The same theory works for anything - a bar in 17 sounds scary, but just break it down into chunks you can play. Obviously feel will improve through practice and depending on what the music is doing, but this will get you started and remove the mystery.

As for counting and playing, many amazing drummers advocate training the voice as a 5th limb, starting with counting the time (Gary Chester for one). I play drums and guitar to a high enough level, and in varied enough situations, to know that the drummers who insist that they 'just feel it man' tend not to be very useful when playing and communicating with other musicians.

[Muckster]

As for counting and playing, many amazing drummers advocate training the voice as a 5th limb, starting with counting the time (Gary Chester for one). I play drums and guitar to a high enough level, and in varied enough situations, to know that the drummers who insist that they 'just feel it man' tend not to be very useful when playing and communicating with other musicians.


Great point! especially, when in the studio, someone wants to add an accent on the "and" of 15 ,at the last moment, in groove that is in 17. Waiting for a "feel" guy to get that down can be costly.

[balboa]

if we stopped learning when we couldnt feel things anymore, we all would have stopped after day one. The purpose of learning is to place yourself into situations where you dont feel comfortable, in hopes that you will feel comfortable soon. When performing original music there are times where one wants to fill over the bar in an odd time sig. Unless you have totally mastered 9/8,74, and all the subdivisions, you may have to count to start and end where you want to. Soon it will become second nature and you wont need to count anymore, but first most of us will probably have to count

[PinkZepplin]

Major names? You are kidding I hope? How about these Bozzio,Coliauta,Wackerman,Morgenstein.....just a few> Let me put it to you this way you absolutely would not be hired to play say Zappa's gig with out the ability to read, understand and play odd times. The ability to read odd times and play parts that are not necessarily repetitive grooves within those odds times can only happen if you understand counting. So while you may trick yourself by playing rote examples of Tool grooves that in no way makes anyone a "master" of odd times. people try too hard I think to oversimplify everything. The examples of non western drumming are a perfect example. Drummers playing tabla and some types of western percussion must learn for YEARS prior to even getting a drum in their hands.

You can get to a certain point with the non counting rote way of learning but I doubt you can do much in the way of improvising or soloing within a odd meter without understanding it first. There is nothing wrong with "intellectualizing" anything with regard to the art of drumming...that does not mean you are always in the state of a scientific discovery when you play...but the foundation will get you much further along if it is strong. Sorry but this is just the truth.

Example I filled in with a band I do not normally play with this past weekend. It went really well and the guitarist was all happy about it saying "I didn't hear you miss a beat"...I told him "hey I missed plenty of things but I know how to cover" he said he wished he knew how to cover....the basis of what I was saying though is I don't lose where I am and am not playing without an awareness of where I am ...even in a 4/4 groove and I know how to get out of something when it is not working. This comes from understanding, experience and time. And frankly I can hear when someone is counting and when someone is just playing by rote...it usually shows up when there is a mistake and they stumble not knowing what to do to get out of it.

Now throwing in the idea of odd times using a method of counting such as 2s and 3s it at the very least allows you to latch onto something. I would never depend on a bass player or guitarist or definitely NOT a singer to automatically KNOW how to hold together the odd time signature. That really is for the drummer to lay the foundation ( along with the bass player).

Also the idea of playing odd times by rote completely goes out the window if you are working in a percussion ensemble or any style that is written i.e.: classical etc. In those situations a true understanding is without any doubt needed. All of drumming is not sitting down and just grooving with band mates and the more you realize music is broader and ALL styles have connections and links the better for you. I have worked on snare solos written in odd times and there simply is no rote pattern to latch onto....you can't just feel your way through that material but working on that made me understand how it all works even more.

To sum up I feel the understanding of it all is important. Learning to count will NEVER take away from your ability to groove in odd times. NOT knowing how to count CAN get you lost if you really don't understand where you are in a measure or how to get out of a problem when it happens. And yeah it takes work but in this day in age of Guitar Hero and everything in life being oversimplified, I think that is a good thing. Knowledge is Power.

thank you for typing all the things i didn't have time to.

[mattsmith]

Until now, I've stayed out of this thread because it opened up a number of issues with me, mostly about how the politics of drumming, short cut concepts, and forum culture seem to get in the way of a lot things. And they all seem to be inter related.

1. There has been a lot of piling on here of Jay Norem. Before you guys totally discredit this person, I think there should be a respect bar set up beforehand. He's a very clever jazz musician in the Atlanta area who writes and performs fresh and interesting music. Check out his myspace stuff. It's cool.

http://www.myspace.com/21bop

You may disagree with him on this one minor issue about counting while playing. I disagree with him about this particular issue too. But he's nobody's fool. He also posts a lot of interesting stuff on the allaboutjazz forum.

2. However, Jay I've got to say that the I'm right and that's it approach you guys use over at allaboutjazz doesn't always transfer well to other forums. Over there you don't really have flexible conversations, you instead give speeches and then try to make converts. That's why I got tired of that forum and walked away. I'm not even sure most people read each other's posts over there unless they have one of their own quotes at the top. Then it's nothing but getting in the last word, and telling the other guy they don't know what they're talking about. That's why aaj threads on even basic issues, go forever and ever with no hope of resolution, and respectfully I think its /with the exception of a small handful/ why that forum is absent of name jazz musicians.

See when Britt made a very logical point followed by Dave Crigger's point by point analysis, you seemed to ignore all that and kept going anyway, even when you knew Dave's points especially had to be the last word. After all, if the drummer for Don Ellis is saying it's appropriate to count while playing, how on a thousand earths is that not the last word? Wouldn't it have been fair to say that some of this back and forth could have been avoided by merely inferring that the other point may have been worth further consideration? Maybe I misinterpreted all that, but it just seemed that way to me.

3. Regarding my issue about short cut concepts, I refer specifically to this new strong opinion that all issues of musicianship are just supposed to be felt and implied with little or no proper grounding. IMO there just seems to be this misperception out there that you're supposed to be ashamed to do basic things like count aloud, respect simple rudiments, or for that matter practice, because all that gets in the way of your spiritual side. I think Kenny Werner's Effortless Mastery has a lot to do with this new way of thinking, when I'm not so sure this was his original intention. I always felt that movement was to get people to be less uptight when they played, not to create a generation of non practicing psychic musicians who just play.

Jay's comments here aren't directly a result of my third point, but they got me to thinking how all this seems to be tied together, and it's not something I'm very comfortable with.

[druid]

One correction. I said some ways of "western" drumming the player does not get a drum until years of learning have happened. My mistake that should have read "West African" as in hand drumming , Djembe etc.

[balboa]

it always boils back to experimentation!!! try different ways and see which way works best for you. Perhaps some people dont have a problem doing certain things with out counting, while others do. What i may have to count, you may find that you dont have to. Try different ways and see how it works. the great thing about these forums is that there are tons of opinions and ideas on how to achieve things. Perhaps one all by itself doesnt work. so, pick and choose and blend different methods together and see if they do work for you. Personally, i have to count certain things out first before i achieve them. this is a fact for me! know your learning style and it will help move you along faster and farther. Knowing how to study is an art in and of itself.

[jay norem]

Until now, I've stayed out of this thread because it opened up a number of issues with me, mostly about how the politics of drumming, short cut concepts, and forum culture seem to get in the way of a lot things. And they all seem to be inter related.

1. There has been a lot of piling on here of Jay Norem. Before you guys totally discredit this person, I think there should be a respect bar set up beforehand. He's a very clever jazz musician in the Atlanta area who writes and performs fresh and interesting music. Check out his myspace stuff. It's cool.

http://www.myspace.com/21bop

You may disagree with him on this one minor issue about counting while playing. I disagree with him about this particular issue too. But he's nobody's fool. He also posts a lot of interesting stuff on the allaboutjazz forum.

2. However, Jay I've got to say that the I'm right and that's it approach you guys use over at allaboutjazz doesn't always transfer well to other forums. Over there you don't really have flexible conversations, you instead give speeches and then try to make converts. That's why I got tired of that forum and walked away. I'm not even sure most people read each other's posts over there unless they have one of their own quotes at the top. Then it's nothing but getting in the last word, and telling the other guy they don't know what they're talking about. That's why aaj threads on even basic issues, go forever and ever with no hope of resolution, and respectfully I think its /with the exception of a small handful/ why that forum is absent of name jazz musicians.

See when Britt made a very logical point followed by Dave Crigger's point by point analysis, you seemed to ignore all that and kept going anyway, even when you knew Dave's points especially had to be the last word. After all, if the drummer for Don Ellis is saying it's appropriate to count while playing, how on a thousand earths is that not the last word? Wouldn't it have been fair to say that some of this back and forth could have been avoided by merely inferring that the other point may have been worth further consideration? Maybe I misinterpreted all that, but it just seemed that way to me.

3. Regarding my issue about short cut concepts, I refer specifically to this new strong opinion that all issues of musicianship are just supposed to be felt and implied with little or no proper grounding. IMO there just seems to be this misperception out there that you're supposed to be ashamed to do basic things like count aloud, respect simple rudiments, or for that matter practice, because all that gets in the way of your spiritual side. I think Kenny Werner's Effortless Mastery has a lot to do with this new way of thinking, when I'm not so sure this was his original intention. I always felt that movement was to get people to be less uptight when they played, not to create a generation of non practicing psychic musicians who just play.

Jay's comments here aren't directly a result of my third point, but they got me to thinking how all this seems to be tied together, and it's not something I'm very comfortable with.

Thank you for your kind words, Matt, seriously, and for one of the most well stated and fair-minded posts I think I've ever read in a discussion forum.
I never meant that one shouldn't be trained or educated. I have studied music all my life, and not only from the drummer's point of view but also from the composer's and arranger's. I would never advocate forgoing a technical study of drumming.
I meant only to offer my approach to playing odd meters. It's hard not to come across as saying "my way is the right way" when posting stongly held ideals to these boards.
But the playing of odd meters seems to me to be something that is cloaked in a certain mystery, and therefore is made to seem more difficult than it actually is. But at some point I got thrown into the "just feel it man" school, which does not at all describe my aproach to drumming, or to music in general.
I'm sorry if I came across as being didactic.

[PinkZepplin]

I got thrown into the "just feel it man" school, and does not at all describe my aproach to drumming, or to music in general.
I'm sorry if I came across as being didactic.


not to beat a dead horse man, but you specifically said do not count, it is a bad habit, and that the only thing that will ever come of counting beats is for you to be a beat counter. So, that's where the misunderstanding about the just-feel it probably started...

[Matt-a-tat-tat]

i just count it out. even when doing stuff as mundane as making a sandwich, i'm counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 in my head or 1-2-3-4-5, etc. plus listening to a lot of music in odd time signatures helps. after a while you'll feel it like even signatures. works for me.
i hear that eastern and much african music is naturally written in odd time signatures so they feel 7/4 and 5/4 much the same way as we feel 4/4 or 2/4 or 6/4 . . .

[mattsmith]

---fair-minded posts in a discussion forum---
I'm sorry if I came across as being didactic.

Thanks Jay and no problem man. Again I think people get into a mind thing when they hang out at aaj, where they see everything as an unbending smart guy battle. It's a shame too, because I've yet to see a jazz forum that wasn't like this, mainly because they are usually controlled by jazz fans who don't even perform, but are convinced they know more about music than the musician could ever know. And you know how young guys are treated by that crowd. I can go perform somewhere, and the jazz musicians will critique you one way, while some jazz fan is simultaneously telling the musician to his face that he just told me the wrong thing. It's amazing nerve, and a world with a parallel reality that exists no where else.

bot to beat a dead horse man, but you specifically said do not count, it is a bad habit, and that the only thing that will ever come of counting beats is for you to be a beat counter. So, that's where the misunderstanding about the just-feel it probably started...

Man, the guy just apologized. You say not to beat a dead horse, than do it anyway.
Give it a rest.

[PinkZepplin]

Man, the guy just apologized. You say not to beat a dead horse, than do it anyway.
Give it a rest.

Sorry man i just don't like horses

[aydee]

Here's Summertime in 6/8. what could be easier than that ; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6uQ7ITAw4Q&feature=related