how important is rudiments? + i need general help

[pxf446]

ive been druming for a year and 1/2 and i have never practiced them or even heard what they were till this week. i play hardcore. when i started drumming i never drumed along to music or anything like that, now i feel like i hit a wall, my double bass isent that good and my fils are lame www.myspace.com/firsttofight413 is my bands page and you can here me, if you have any helpfull tips or constructive cridism plese let me know. like i said i have onl drumed for a year and 1/2 but i feel like i dident start with a good foundation

[jayp]

Rudiments are the fundimentals of drumming if you don't learn them you will be stuck where you are forever, trying to get over brick wall..

They are the patterns used in drumming and should be practiced ritually lol. learn all 40 and their permutuations and you'll never regret it. Great grooves can come from patterns such as a paradiddle and double pariddles ect. read up on www.vicfirth.com they have all 40 for you there.

Remember to always practice to a metronome or 2 years down the road you'll be saying "I wish I learned to play with a click" so just get use to it now and you'll be fine.

[PinkZepplin]

Stop! Go out and on buy Stick Control for the Rudimentary Snare Drummer, and then live by it. ha

Seriously though, that's a great back anad will help you break through a lot of technical barriers that you may have hit in your playing

[blade123]

EVERYTHING YOU PLAY IS A RUDIMENT, COMBINATION OF RUDIMENTS, STRAIGHT RIGHTS,OR STRAIGHT LEFTS.
I cannot stress this enough.
There is nothing else that you could play that is not one of those.
If you practice them, you will be a better drummer.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

RUDIMENT...... the elementary stages of any subject (usually plural); "he mastered only the rudiments of geometry"

All skills have basics to start with.

[brittc89]

As blade123 said everything your are going to do is a rudiment or some form of variation upon a rudiment, so in that regard, they are very important. I dont understand this question and it gets asked a lot. Why not practice rudiments, learn as many as you can, it can only help your playing to have an expanded vocabulary, right? Kenny Werner talks about this in Effortless Mastery. Were all so anxious and nervous and impatient and yearning to be the next great musician that we RUSH through development and never slow down to actually "master" anything because we feel as if by slowing down were hindering our development because were not racing to our goals fast enough anymore, when in actuallity this is the exact opposite of whats going on. By rushing through developmental stages and never mastering anything, such as rudiments, we are short changing ourselves in the long run on a musical level.

[Vinnysimmo]

Remember to always practice to a metronome or 2 years down the road you'll be saying "I wish I learned to play with a click"

By rushing through developmental stages and never mastering anything, such as rudiments, we are short changing ourselves in the long run on a musical level.

Listen to them.
I had played for a year before doing these things and im still paying for it.

[Tylerdrums109]

Heres the most simple way i can put it...THEY ARE EVERYTHING...without rudiments a drummer is unbelievably limited...learn your rudiments and practice your hand technique...thats the basic of drumming and ur progress will be slowed if u dont have those in constant practice

[aaajn]

Been thinking about the Rudiments a lot.

I only had a practice pad for the 1st Month. That was all the drum teacher could teach me based on my equipment. I got one of those Vic Firth Charts and taped it to the wall with the 47 Rudiments, looked like a foreign language. Now, they are starting to look like a language I can read, each week they make more sense. I only do 4 or 5 or them so far.

I am will deploy in the military for a year and have to put my lessons on hold. Here is my plan, I can fit a practice pad in a duffle bag next to a pair of sticks. Word is there is a lot of down time so my plan is to practice rudiments only for a year and see how it sounds when I come home. Unless I can figure out how to carry the Pearl Kit. .

I only started drumming 6 months ago but I am 47. I assumed that rudiments were the most important thing before I talked to anybody about them. It's always about the basics that make somebody great at whatever they are great at.

[Drummer Karl]

Firstly, do you have a teacher? Someone who starts with you at point zero?

Rudiments are fundamentals. Make clear that the most essential rudiments work with singles, doubles....or flams. Learning them right from the sheet will help you, practicing them on the pad or snare drum will help you as well. It`s like expanding a libary or learning the ABC.
And the more you practice those rudiments, the better you can combine stickings or motions.
in my personal opinion a pure rudiment which is written down on a sheet isn`t that valuable but combined with your combinational ability you will be able to create words with those letter, the rudiments. And that is truly valuable.
So, in the end it`s like learning to read or to write, first you have to learn the letters of the ABC, then you combine them, build words, then sentences, then books.

Don`t get desperate about all the rudiments, with time your ability to execute something written will improve. And in general, if you havn`t got a good teacher, get one. ;-)
For now and for improving your double bass: To aim consistency, work with a click! And it won`t help if you start playing fastly. For example get your click, turn it up to 100 bpm and walk the quarter notes. Start with singles...then go over to your kit and do the same thing, play singles, quarters at 100 bpm. Do that regulary and after some time you can get faster. Also you can experiment with getting one or two bpm faster or slower, you will feel how much it changes.
And of course you could also integrate the rudiments into your double bass playing. But that`s next...

Have fun!

Karl

[pxf446]

wow thank you guys for all the help, but where can i get a bpm click? and what is it? not to sound stupid. also should i memorize the rudiment chart, and should play rudiments on the bass drum to get better double bass?

[Muffled Tom]

wow thank you guys for all the help, but where can i get a bpm click? and what is it? not to sound stupid

It's like a metronome. Get one online.

[blade123]

http://www.metronomeonline.com/

[pxf446]

so the number are just bpm so if i pick 100, thats 100bpm?

[gusty]

so the number are just bpm so if i pick 100, thats 100bpm?

Sure is. bpm=beats per minute

[Muffled Tom]

so the number are just bpm so if i pick 100, thats 100bpm?

Yeah. For what it's worth, I've been playing drums for a bit over 2 years, and I've only started learning rudiments recently. Only once you learn them will you know how much you could've accomplished before if you'd just learned them earlier.

[trysthedrummer]

And remember, as everyone says, start slowly, especially as you're starting out. And yes, it helps tremendously if you do the same approach with your feet. I find this very hard, you need alot of patience and work.

[drumbuddy105133]

from what I heard on your band's myspace, yes you need a little work. rudiments are very important as stated countless times, and I would advise you learn as many as you can.

[Wile E. Coyote]

EVERYTHING YOU PLAY IS A RUDIMENT, COMBINATION OF RUDIMENTS, STRAIGHT RIGHTS,OR STRAIGHT LEFTS.
Woah... pretty stiff and extreme way of thinking, innit? I know one or two MUSICIANS who disagree.
Back to the topic... I agree with Karl in this one: do you have a teacher?

[dea]

Wait till you learn how to apply them to the kit my friend. Whoa! That is when things get interesting.

[zambizzi]

They're deeply important and you're only holding yourself back by not learning them. I agree with Karl - find a teacher who will sit you down and show you how it should be done....from grip to technique to the fundamentals (including rudiments)

They're fun...it's not a chore. Rudiments will give you the basis of your own unique drumming "vocabulary" for which you'll speak with, on the kit, with all 4 limbs.

[bacca]

Hi folks-new on this forum,so i have a lot of reading up to do! as a "self taught" drummer
i have been playing for over 20yrs on and off-i wish i had known or had taken lessons to
learn rudiments/hand development exercises!! as although i can play competently i do often feel limited in my playing...i have been in a couple of bands when i was younger,but now practice at home with a metronome/or to music of my choice for pleasure....i had some lessons last year but ultimately got frustrated by how stuck in my ways (playing wise)i was.I since purchased the excellent "accelerate your drumming"dvd by larry finn and am still working/learning from this dvd(with booklet)...when i first saw this dvd it made my jaw drop-it was then that i realised how much i did not know about drumming!!!

[brittc89]

Woah... pretty stiff and extreme way of thinking, innit? I know one or two MUSICIANS who disagree.
Back to the topic... I agree with Karl in this one: do you have a teacher?

You clearly are misinterpreting something. To strike a drum in ANY way you need to use a rudiment, in its most simple form. Anything you play is a combination of rudiments when it comes down to it. And I consider myself a musician. And not with capital letters either man, because clearly, those guys, the ones youre alluding to, dont understand the subject.

[Wile E. Coyote]

You clearly are misinterpreting something. To strike a drum in ANY way you need to use a rudiment, in its most simple form. Anything you play is a combination of rudiments when it comes down to it. And I consider myself a musician. And not with capital letters either man, because clearly, those guys, the ones youre alluding to, dont understand the subject.

Yeah Brittc; let's avoid missunderstandings... You know what I mean and I also know what you mean. I'm only reacting to the extreme. You know that playing rudiments without direction is circus; and also, trying to get a nice phrasing without technique is bulls*it (arms will just not follow your head!)
We can say that every stroke is a rudiment, yes... But I'd rather say that everything is simples or doubles (in rudimental playing). Then we could also add triples, quadruples and buzz (don't enjoy fives so much, sorry...). I just don't like this "rudiments saved the world" way of thinking.

[blade123]

Woah... pretty stiff and extreme way of thinking, innit? I know one or two MUSICIANS who disagree.
Back to the topic... I agree with Karl in this one: do you have a teacher?

Not really. Play anything, and I bet I could find a rudiment in it or straight lefts/rights, even if it is abstract, it still exists.

Rudiments are to drums as notes are to a trumpet. Play anything on a trumpet, and it IS a note. Some may make it abstract, like making it slightly sharp (but not a full half step), so it would be a slightly sharp C, but it is STILL a note.
Like if you play T1 T2 RB LB
Tom one, Tom two, Right bass, Left bass
That's a single stroke roll. It isn't all on the same surface like a traditional single stroke roll, but is one nevertheless.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Not really. Play anything, and I bet I could find a rudiment in it or straight lefts/rights, even if it is abstract, it still exists.

Rudiments are to drums as notes are to a trumpet. Play anything on a trumpet, and it IS a note. Some may make it abstract, like making it slightly sharp (but not a full half step), so it would be a slightly sharp C, but it is STILL a note.
Like if you play T1 T2 RB LB
Tom one, Tom two, Right bass, Left bass
That's a single stroke roll. It isn't all on the same surface like a traditional single stroke roll, but is one nevertheless.

Yeah... I guess I was wrong... It's all a big rudiment.

I know a trumpet player that used to play keyclaps a little bit flat... that really got me confused...

[pxf446]

hey guys thanks for all your help i have been practiceing for 2 hours a day just on a practice pad, what do u guys suggest i learn first, ive got the single stroke roll, the double stroke roll,flam,paradiddle and double paradiddle. that i practice now, like i said im not even gonna tuch my drum set for like the next 2 weeks i just want to practice on the pad. i can already notice a way bigger consistancey on my hands. but also like i feel like my fills suck, how can i apply the rudiments im learning to fills? sorry for the horrable spelling and grammer i went to a voke school lol

[votard]

I've wondering about "rudiments" also, so I figured I would ask my questions in here.
I kinda taught myself for about 2 years, so I play lefty open handed on a right kit. So I play left handed and right footed. But anyways, does my lefthandedness make any diffence when playing rudiments? I've been looking at the vic firth 40 essential rudiments(after having it on my favorites list and not checking it out for the longest time). I looked at the single stroke roll first, and noticed under the first line of rlrlrlrl...there was lrlrlrlr. Does this mean I can do either or is it an ambidextrous thing and I and should know how to play both? I might be able to get some lessons on this from the band teacher at school who taught my friend.

[tak22thegoat]

I've wondering about "rudiments" also, so I figured I would ask my questions in here.
I kinda taught myself for about 2 years, so I play lefty open handed on a right kit. So I play left handed and right footed. But anyways, does my lefthandedness make any diffence when playing rudiments? I've been looking at the vic firth 40 essential rudiments(after having it on my favorites list and not checking it out for the longest time). I looked at the single stroke roll first, and noticed under the first line of rlrlrlrl...there was lrlrlrlr. Does this mean I can do either or is it an ambidextrous thing and I and should know how to play both? I might be able to get some lessons on this from the band teacher at school who taught my friend.

First, if you are going to practice rudiments, you must learn it with right hand lead and left hand lead.
Second, I recommend you do take lessons from the teacher.

[tak22thegoat]

hey guys thanks for all your help i have been practiceing for 2 hours a day just on a practice pad, what do u guys suggest i learn first, ive got the single stroke roll, the double stroke roll,flam,paradiddle and double paradiddle. that i practice now, like i said im not even gonna tuch my drum set for like the next 2 weeks i just want to practice on the pad. i can already notice a way bigger consistancey on my hands. but also like i feel like my fills suck, how can i apply the rudiments im learning to fills? sorry for the horrable spelling and grammer i went to a voke school lol

Practicing on a pad for 2 hours is good, IF YOU PRACTICE WITH GOOD, CONSISTENT TECHNIQUE. If you're practicing for that long with bad technique, you're just reinforcing the bad technique.
I suggest that you practice on your pad for 1 hour, and practice on your kit for the other hour.
Start with the BASICS. PERFECT your single stroke roll first. Make sure you can do them cleanly, evenly, and without thinking. Then practice double strokes, paradiddles, so on.
Also about your fills, practice with a METRONOME at a COMFORTABLE tempo. Again, start from the BASICS. Don't try to do fills that you hear your favorite metal drummer player. Start with the basic fills.
Finally, if you are going to practice double bass, be patient and start at a slow tempo. I am learning double bass right now, actually, and I started at 120BPM 8th notes, and now I'm up to 200 BPM. (In a week!)

I recommend the following sites:
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html
http://jasonhorsler.tripod.com/id71.html
Listen to these people carefully. Dom's video lessons are great! Nutha Jason's lessons are easy to understand and easy to apply.
Good luck!

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Not to be harsh' but only truthful, having listened to some of your Myspace entry, you all need a lot of work before considering paying someone to record a ten song CD. You need a lot of work with a metronome, and definitely work on rudiments overall. Get a pad start slow, and practice playing by yourself and not just with the band. You will be a lot happier in the long run.

[zambizzi]

I think you should start thinking of rudiments in a musical context instead of imagining them as some sort of "separate" exercise that somehow, mysteriously doesn't apply to your playing on the kit. Like brittc89 mentioned - everything you play is a rudiment - if you're swinging your sticks and striking your drums...you're playing rudiments and you haven't even realized it.

I like to work on snare solos so that I can practice rudiments in a musical style. Have a listen to this one called "Flamboyant" that I've been working on lately.

[furbeedog@gmail.com]

If you want more rudiments to practice you should go to your local drum store and pick up a Vicfirth rudiment chart. It has like 40 or 50 to do. Obviously you won't be able to play many of them at first, but start from the simple ones and work your way to the harder, more complex ones SLOWLY. If you rush through them to get to the end, you'll just be cheating yourself. Also, having a teacher will only help you get better. At very least it provides someone who can listen to you play and critique your technique.

If you're still feeling your hands are slow after practicing for hours, don't feel discouraged, just think about how much better you're sounding after you practice than you did before. One way to get your hands faster is to play until your playing at your fastest speed with which your comfortable. Play at that speed until your completely in control, and then increase the speed a little, so that your playing fast, but still in control. After a few minutes even, you can go from having relatively little control at a speed to being able to use it at will. Another thing you should do if you haven't already is look up MOELER TECHNIQUE. Using Moeler technique will aid both your speed and dynamics control (volume) greatly.

If you want some other rudiments to practice, try these as well:

5-stroke (RRLLR LLRRL)
6-stroke (rrllRL rrllRL)
Triple paradiddle (RLRLRLRR LRLRLRLL)
Flams, Ruffs (lR,rL and llR,rrL)

Experiment with changing which note of a rudiment you start on and which note(s) you accent as well. Try playing a paradiddle between two toms and a snare (T2SSS,T1SSS), then try flipping it around like this (SST2S, SST1S) and you'll see what I mean.

[furbeedog@gmail.com]

Also (not to ramble) but realize that whenever you do a fill, it should not be just random playing, it should be rooted in rhythmic variations that you know. Do you think that great drummers just play random notes? No. They may not think as they're playing "paradiddle,singlesingle,paradiddle," but their filling is most likely rooted in rudimental patterns. Using different rudiments and moving them around the drumset, changing the accents, and changing the starting point, if you know enough rudiments (even with a few you can start to create very creative fill ideas) can be a lot of what you need to play, fill, and solo. I'm not saying play mechanically, but having a reserve of ideas for when you want to fill doesn't make you an emotionless stoic drummer, if anything it helps you express yourself more because your have a more expansive pattern vocabulary.

[Drummer Karl]

You clearly are misinterpreting something. To strike a drum in ANY way you need to use a rudiment, in its most simple form. Anything you play is a combination of rudiments when it comes down to it. And I consider myself a musician. And not with capital letters either man, because clearly, those guys, the ones youre alluding to, dont understand the subject.

Understanding music and what you`re doing often makes me think for an endless time. My drum teacher says, most essential rudiments you do: Singles, Doubles, the combinations of them, Flams and three-strokes. I think that saying, everything is a rudiment is a very academic and technical approach.
It`s important to differ between this and this natural approach which we would probably consider as a "musical" approach.
Indeed everything is a rudiment, drumming can be explained like that. The very existence of the space can be explained with physical and chemical processes, anyway with religious or philosophic ones, too.
It depends on the approach you "use" and you`re looking for.

BUT as well as history, music and in this particular case drumming HAS to be seen from different perspectives.
A little simile: Three blind men are standing in front of a horse. One`s touching the tale and thinks it`s the hair of an attractive woman, the other`s touching the wet and slimy mouth, thinks someone`s giving him a slug. But the third man goes around the horse, uses his nose and ears and notices that it`s a horse.
It`s important to care about perspectives for something.

Just my thoughts...

Karl

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Karl is right on. I just saw an interview with Ian Paice and he said everyone needs to start with the most basics of RUDIMENTS and that is single stroke rolls.

[selerky]

my 0.02$ -
With single stroke (obviously), double stroke, and flam, you can get anywhere. I think a good base is 1 - some kind of paradiddle, 2- flam, flam tap, etc. 3- double stroke roll.

[schist]

Like 'GRUNTERSDAD' and 'drumbuddy105133', I went and listened to the songs on your band's MySpace page. Now I'm not gonna be an a**hole and say it was a painful listen, because it wasn't - in fact, it was a hell of a good effort compared to the offerings of some of the "bands" I've been forced to listen to. But yes, you do need a fair bit of work. I'd definitely suggest practicing with a metronome, and learning proper technique. When practicing on a pad, be sure to do so in front of a mirror/other reflective device to keep an eye on your form (ie. make sure both your hands are level with one another, you're holding the sticks the same in both hands (assuming you play matched grip) etc.) and stay COMPLETELY relaxed - tension will only hold you back big time.

As for the topic of "are rudiments important" - not being able to do a clean flam tap at 170BPM is not gonna prevent you from being a good drummer, but then again, everything you do on drums is based on a rudiment, be it singles, doubles, or combinations of the two (paradiddles), flams etc. so it's wise to learn as many rudiments as you can, it'll expand your creative vocabulary.

I mean, I'm sure a lot of us were at your stage at one point in our drumming careers (myself included) - all that must be done is for you to stay positive and of course, practice!

[Wile E. Coyote]

Understanding music and what you`re doing often makes me think for an endless time. My drum teacher says, most essential rudiments you do: Singles, Doubles, the combinations of them, Flams and three-strokes. I think that saying, everything is a rudiment is a very academic and technical approach.
It`s important to differ between this and this natural approach which we would probably consider as a "musical" approach.
Thank you Karl. We finally agree in this one.
Technique (which is muuuuuch more than rudiments...) is the dictionary you'll use to express what you want to say.
It's more important to have a message to tell than only the tools to tell it. Well.. both... of course. But like a friend of mine said "If you have something interesting to say, people will listen to you, even if you pronounce it wrong".
Don't get me wrong... I'm actually a technique freak. But what the hell is it with rudiments? Rudiments is just a tiny bit of what you have to work on. And don't forget that the most important and most difficult is PHRASING. Don't forget about technique though... sound, balance, precission, dynamics, articulation, speed... and yes, also rudiments.