Too soon to bring in the BD?

[scott]

I read where Max Weinberg is to have said that the beginner should work on the practice pad for a year before touching the drum kit. I am actually adhering to that advice, and for four months have been working on hands (rudiments and exercises) as laid out the "Hand Grooves and Fills" book.

I'm fine with this approach, as just getting my hands working is plenty of work!

But this new Bass Drum DVD that has been talked about here has me curious to maybe start working on feet---even if on a separate practice routine---with the idea of being able to put it all together (hands and feet) and making the transition maybe a little easier down the road.

Any commonly accepted teaching wisdom on when to bring the feet into the equation?

[PinkZepplin]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with max weinberg on this one. I doubt that he took this approach to drums, and i sincerely doubt that you should either. The only way to learn how to drum is to do just that, drum. Drums feel, and play, completely differently then a pad, not to mention the technical rudiments you may be learning will only apply about 20% of the time you are playing a drumset(depending on what and how you play of course, but for the most part.).

You should definately not only start working on your feet, but also on your drumming. What good is all the technique in the world if you can't put it into musical form? The answer is no good.

However if you decide to continue to persue this practice route i would definately recommend working on your feet. As well as purchasing a copy of Stick Control for the rudimentary snare drummer. That book is my bible/koran/tora/any other religous literature from some of the more obscure religions in this world.

[scott]

Just for the record, I think it's a good idea to cite my source for the Weinberg quote:

http://www.iplaythedrums.com/howtoplay.htm

In my job as drummer of the band CRACKER, I had occasion to perform a song on Late Night With Conan O'Brien. As you may know if you've ever watched the show, the drummer of the studio band is none other than Max Weinberg, (Also the drummer for Bruce Springsteen & the E Street Band.) As a matter of fact, the band is called the Max Weinberg 7. Pretty nice, a drummer getting a band named after him, no? Anyway, after the show, I respectfully approached him and had a quick drumming conversation with him. I explained that I was getting a lot of email from people asking me how they could learn to play the drums. So, I asked him: "What advice would you give to a drummer starting out?" His answer surprised me. He said that he would recommend a FULL YEAR of work on a practice pad before even THINKING about sitting down behind a drumset. Then, he quickly said that that probably wasn't a good answer to give to my website visitors, because they would think it was a boring way to go about it. But I said to him, "No, no... that's perfect! Every drummer is going to have a different answer to that question."

. . . appreciate the replies!

[jeffwj]

I don't see the logic in this either. That would be one full year without gaining a touch for the drums/cymbals. Each instrument has its own characteristics and needs a certain touch.

Also, it would be one full year without building hand / foot coordination. One year without learning drum set styles.

I guess you can say that a brass player should do nothing but buzz in the mouthpiece for a year before putting it in the horn. One year of not using the valves/slide etc... That will improve one aspect of his/her technique, but the student will be at square one on day 366 when he tries to play the full instrument.

Jeff

[dandadrummer]

haha i can tell you from experience that i don't think thats the way to go at it

i started rudimental drumming and percussion before i did set, for around a year

i could play all the basic rudiments plus tons of hybrids, you know chesses chudduchas shirly murphys an all that jazz plus variations like adding a flam on the diddle of a paradidle or moving accents around

but when i started set, i was just as uncoordinated as everyone else, my feet where always way off on timing, and i couldn't "feel a groove" to save my life.

so yeah i agree with pink its important to start off on a full set

[Vinnysimmo]

Just for the record, I think it's a good idea to cite my source for the Weinberg quote:

http://www.iplaythedrums.com/howtoplay.htm

In my job as drummer of the band CRACKER, I had occasion to perform a song on Late Night With Conan O'Brien. As you may know if you've ever watched the show, the drummer of the studio band is none other than Max Weinberg, (Also the drummer for Bruce Springsteen & the E Street Band.) As a matter of fact, the band is called the Max Weinberg 7. Pretty nice, a drummer getting a band named after him, no? Anyway, after the show, I respectfully approached him and had a quick drumming conversation with him. I explained that I was getting a lot of email from people asking me how they could learn to play the drums. So, I asked him: "What advice would you give to a drummer starting out?" His answer surprised me. He said that he would recommend a FULL YEAR of work on a practice pad before even THINKING about sitting down behind a drumset. Then, he quickly said that that probably wasn't a good answer to give to my website visitors, because they would think it was a boring way to go about it. But I said to him, "No, no... that's perfect! Every drummer is going to have a different answer to that question."

. . . appreciate the replies!

I wouldn't recommend that.

[joeybeats]

Though he probably believes what he said, perhaps even has some interest in seeing a new player actually do that, I think Max was most likely making a point more than anything else. Particularly since he acknowledged that it would be boring ... no real fun playing the instrument.

Coincidentally, yesterday I was driving for six hours and had the cd's well in rotation. I recall that when listening to some of the E Street early stuff, specifically, The Wild, The Innocent & The E Street Shuffle, I was again reminded how good single strokes can sound. Listen to the third track ... Kitty's Back. Nobody has better singles than Max. Even really short passages, one or two measures of 16th's played at a medium or slow tempos, sound amazing ... they are at a level of which I am completely unfamiliar with and bring so much to the E Street Band sound. Something only a drummer would notice for sure, but it's always a revelation. (Not on that album, but the singles on Born To Run ... wow!)

Max plays perfectly for Bruce's music, like Ringo did. Max is one of the most underrated drummers on the planet IMO. Check out that album you younger guys. And remember, he plays a simple four piece set with one ride and a crash. And, one of the greatest recorded songs of all time is on that album ... Rosalita! Joey

[Garvin]

"When I grow up, I want to play the practice pad"

Nope...

[k3ng]

A whole year? Of learning nothing but technique without application? That might hurt you more than it helps in my opinion.

I've always taught hand and foot control side by side - never one above the other. I put equal emphasis on controlling both the hands and the feet. I don't know how much of an edge a 1 year hand technique headstart is going to give you.

I always recommend getting behind a kit as often as you can. Of course distractions happen more often behind the kit. But then again, application is what makes the music, not the practice pad exercises.

[CtrStDrumSchool]

i agree with the majority here. develop a practice routine that divides your time between technique devlopment on a pad and independance and coordination on the drums.

[Garvin]

I reccommend spending at least a year just looking at your sticks before even considering picking them up... If the thought of touching them crosses your mind, then you have to start over. Its a rigorous mental excercise, but after a year of staring at your sticks, you should be ready to pick them up...

Long joke? Yes... I like Max, but I've got a life to live and never would've stuck with the drums if I were told this. My dad just set his old kit up for me and let me go at it. Now I'm a rich and famous- oh wait, I'm niether, but at least I can play the drums. Hehehehe...

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

It all depends on the context. Sure, practice hand technique only for a year, but by all means take on playing in a band or something at the same time.

I spent a year on the pad with Dom Famularo. He would have this big, bad drum set sitting there, and I would have my back to it, playing the pad, for a whole year. Mind you, I was playing in several bands, but what he taught me was purely hand technique for that first year. And I was ready and stoked for it, so it worked out great!

Just take it easy and practice what excites you. Take lesson and listen to your (master) teacher. Then you'll be just fine!
Casper

[mattsmith]

When I was 9, I told my folks I wanted a drum set for Christmas. Dad said, That's fine but you're not going to be a typical unschooled drum set player without proper hand fundamentals. He then gave me a practice pad, a 50 year old Ludwig rudiment book and the pair of drum sticks that Louie Bellson had given me, and said knock yourself out. I practiced about 4 months just on the pad, and after 3 more months was allowed to alternate between pad and snare, but only after I had practiced at least a half hour on the pad. The next month I got an entry level Tama kit for Christmas, but could not play it unless I practiced rudiments on a pad for at least 30 minutes. If I went to the kit before the pad, no set the next day.

After a year had passed from that first day I got the pad, book and sticks, I was allowed to play the set any time I wanted.

It used to make me really mad to do all that, Now I wouldn't trade that time I spent on the pad for anything. When I started serious drum set lessons at 12, my teacher always said how much easier he thought it was to train a student that was already up on pad skills, because that meant he didn't have to stop every 5 minutes to teach basic stuff.

I'm kinda confused by some of the comments here, because some of them come from top rank experienced players. What's the big deal with one year? It takes decades to be really good at this anyway. Do drummers only live to be 20? IMO if you're gonna to be good at anything it will take time, right?

[joeybeats]

... When I started serious drum set lessons at 12, my teacher always said how much easier he thought it was to train a student that was already up on pad skills, because that meant he didn't have to stop every 5 minutes to teach basic stuff.

I'm kinda confused by some of the comments here, because some of them come from top rank experienced players. What's the big deal with one year? It takes decades to be really good at this anyway. Do drummers only live to be 20? IMO if you're gonna to be good at anything it will take time, right?


And, to me anyway, that is exactly the point Max was trying to make. Joey

[bdub]

If I remember right, Steve Smith mentioned that his first three years of drumming were on a practice pad only. Incredible player.

[fourstringdrums]

That makes zero sense. That's like learning to drive a car by just turning the wheel and pressing the pedals. You might learn a thing or two that you're definitely going to have to know once you start driving, but you're still not going anywhere.

[jeffwj]

Why not practice on the pad and the snare drum

and the drum set?

If you want better hands now (no matter how long you've been playing), you can take a year and dedicate 100% of your practice time to the pad. Why are we not doing this? Because we understand the principal of balance. A combination of reading, technique, coordination, listening analysis, and knowledge of styles will produce a well rounded musician.

[mattsmith]

If you want better hands now (no matter how long you've been playing), you can take a year and dedicate 100% of your practice time to the pad. Why are we not doing this?

First off, please understand that this isn't meant as disrespect at all, just some devil's advocate stuff from somebody with no real teaching experience.

I would also think that as a studio teacher, you're not always in a position to spend long periods of time getting people interested enough to spend years learning one thing at a time, before Christmas drumset fever wears off.

I think your principle of balance makes a lot of sense in a perfect world, if everyone is disciplined enough to do all things in proportion all the time. Problem is, this is probably the real world...

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=419255&postcount=1

Seriously, if you give a 12 year old a shiny new drumset for Christmas with no work required beforehand, isn't this usually going to be the end result despite all the good intentions said upfront?

Are beginners really going to do all those things that as some of you have already labeled as boring, if they already have access to the main prize? Isn't this also why beginners in American public school bands are required to understand how the pad works first before they get to play that snare they really want to play, that stares at them from that big plastic drum case that all the school percussion beginners get at the music store?

I can mention something else that probably would also drive some people nuts. Our beginner band was required to pass a key signature, basic notation reading test before anybody took their horns out of their cases, including the drummers. I also didn't think it was any coincidence that my program was usually considered the best one in the state by a pretty wide margin.

There are also some analogies here that when you try to follow the dots don't seem to entirely connect. One of them is the thing about the mouthpiece buzzing before you get the entire instrument. A mouthpiece and a trumpet are not two separate instruments. The two parts make up a trumpet, not a mouthpiece and a trumpet. A mouthpiece isn't an instrument in of itself. But on the other hand, isn't a drum set derived from many different instruments, all requiring their proper time for learning, with the pad being the most important tie in, because the skills necessary to succeed have direct applications to several instruments on that drumset, which are also coincidentally probably the most important ones?

That makes zero sense. That's like learning to drive a car by just turning the wheel and pressing the pedals. You might learn a thing or two that you're definitely going to have to know once you start driving, but you're still not going anywhere.

Not so sure about that Rob. Your analogy is probably more correct if the drum pad were thought of as an engine. And if that's true, a handful of basic spare parts will probably make you a really fun go cart with a lot of practical applications.

[PinkZepplin]

Not so sure about that Rob. Your analogy is probably more correct if the drum pad were thought of as an engine. And if that's true, a handful of basic spare parts will probably make you a really fun go cart with a lot of practical applications.

actually the anology woul dmake more sense if the drumSET were thought of as an engine because he connects the drumset with moving the car, and the pad with just learning the controls. And to make your metaphorical go cart you apparently need an engine...

[somedrummer]

When I was 9, I told my folks I wanted a drum set for Christmas. Dad said, That's fine but you're not going to be a typical unschooled drum set player without proper hand fundamentals. He then gave me a practice pad, a 50 year old Ludwig rudiment book and the pair of drum sticks that Louie Bellson had given me, and said knock yourself out. I practiced about 4 months just on the pad, and after 3 more months was allowed to alternate between pad and snare, but only after I had practiced at least a half hour on the pad. The next month I got an entry level Tama kit for Christmas, but could not play it unless I practiced rudiments on a pad for at least 30 minutes. If I went to the kit before the pad, no set the next day.

After a year had passed from that first day I got the pad, book and sticks, I was allowed to play the set any time I wanted.

It used to make me really mad to do all that, Now I wouldn't trade that time I spent on the pad for anything. When I started serious drum set lessons at 12, my teacher always said how much easier he thought it was to train a student that was already up on pad skills, because that meant he didn't have to stop every 5 minutes to teach basic stuff.

I'm kinda confused by some of the comments here, because some of them come from top rank experienced players. What's the big deal with one year? It takes decades to be really good at this anyway. Do drummers only live to be 20? IMO if you're gonna to be good at anything it will take time, right?

I agree 100% with Matt. This is the school that I started on. My teacher when I first started playing emphasized the basics of technique and just hand to hand coordination, as well as rudiments. And like Matt said, I would trade that experience for anything.

I think the point that Max was trying to make is the classic "if you can't play one drum, there's no way that you'll EVER be able to play 4, 5, or however many"... In this, he is right. While I don't necessarily agree with just pad practice ( I believe that the snare drum should be used moreso than the pad), the idea is to develop good technique so that when one does move on to a whole drum set, that technique will remain and simply be refined when learning drum set techniques.

In my limited teaching experience, I have loads of kids who want to play the drum set, so what I would do is split our lessons into equal parts of (first) hand technique via pad/snare, and (second) application of some of that technique to the whole set. Or, for those players just beginning, I won't start introducing set for months OR until they have some solid hand technique.

[mattsmith]

actually the anology woul dmake more sense if the drumSET were thought of as an engine because he connects the drumset with moving the car, and the pad with just learning the controls. And to make your metaphorical go cart you apparently need an engine...


Man, you might want to reread all that because I'm not sure it makes a whole lotta sense.

Drumset connects to moving car? Pad controls? And who is he...? God?

BTW, Do we each know other from another forum? This conversation is strangely familiar.

[PinkZepplin]

Man, you might want to reread all that because I'm not sure it makes a whole lotta sense.

Drumset connects to moving car? Pad controls? And who is he...? God?

BTW, Do we each know other from another forum? This conversation is strangely familiar.



Read what he originally wrote. he being the person you are quoting, Rob I think you called him. And no I don't think we do, i don't post on any other forums.

[dcrigger]

To back Matt up a bit as well as speak to this theory having at least some validity... I was basically taught this way.

In 4th or 5th grade, came home from school after seeing some music demonstration all hot to learn to play the drums. Mom having suffered through enough damaged pots and pans over the years, finally deemed me old enough to pursue it. Keep in mind - wanting to learn to play the drums and wanting a set of drums are really two different things. Mom was both hip to that and wary that the whole endeavor could be too expensive - money was an issue, so off to the phone book.

Luckily she ended up calling a local Music/Dance studio that was all about lessons as opposed to being more about selling drumsets (major conflict of interest there) - and was told "No problem Mrs. Crigger, we recommend starting out with just a pad anyway - and if things go well, the drums can come later".

And really, for all the folks bemoaning not being able to work on 4-way independence right from the start. For a stone beginner? Who doesn't even have any 1-way independence?

Anyway, it worked fine - pair of sticks, practice pad and Haskell Harr Vol.1. Basic grip, basic stroke, explanation of rhythm, counting, basic reading... read, count, play...watch those stickings... try it again... OK, on to the next page.

Chewed through Harr 1 and 2 in about 7-8 months by the end of which I had borrowed an old snare from my teacher or the studio while we were shopping for drumsets.

About nine months in - around my birthday - Mom and Dad borrowed money from the credit union to buy me a set of new Camcos, a 20" Zildjian ride and a set of hihats (all of which I still have!).

I've brought this up around more active teachers these days and the word is that this approach really isn't considered ideal these days (though I would venture that many of the very teachers touting a newer, "better" approach were themselves taught "old-school").

I think I can at least vouch that it can be a viable approach. If for no other reason than the fact that, I've never worked a day in my life as anything other than a drummer (or at least a musician as I later delved into production), so it worked for me!

David

[PinkZepplin]

To back Matt up a bit as well as speak to this theory having at least some validity... I was basically taught this way.

In 4th or 5th grade, came home from school after seeing some music demonstration all hot to learn to play the drums. Mom having suffered through enough damaged pots and pans over the years, finally deemed me old enough to pursue it. Keep in mind - wanting to learn to play the drums and wanting a set of drums are really two different things. Mom was both hip to that and wary that the whole endeavor could be too expensive - money was an issue, so off to the phone book.

Luckily she ended up calling a local Music/Dance studio that was all about lessons as opposed to being more about selling drumsets (major conflict of interest there) - and was told "No problem Mrs. Crigger, we recommend starting out with just a pad anyway - and if things go well, the drums can come later".

And really, for all the folks bemoaning not being able to work on 4-way independence right from the start. For a stone beginner? Who doesn't even have any 1-way independence?

Anyway, it worked fine - pair of sticks, practice pad and Haskell Harr Vol.1. Basic grip, basic stroke, explanation of rhythm, counting, basic reading... read, count, play...watch those stickings... try it again... OK, on to the next page.

Chewed through Harr 1 and 2 in about 7-8 months by the end of which I had borrowed an old snare from my teacher or the studio while we were shopping for drumsets.

About nine months in - around my birthday - Mom and Dad borrowed money from the credit union to buy me a set of new Camcos, a 20" Zildjian ride and a set of hihats (all of which I still have!).

I've brought this up around more active teachers these days and the word is that this approach really isn't considered ideal these days (though I would venture that many of the very teachers touting a newer, "better" approach were themselves taught "old-school").

I think I can at least vouch that it can be a viable approach. If for no other reason than the fact that, I've never worked a day in my life as anything other than a drummer (or at least a musician as I later delved into production), so it worked for me!

David

ALl of the very begginners i teach start thier lessons with me on nothing but the pad, but that's usually over within a month. Once they can play some basic rudiments like paradiddles, double strokes, single strokes, stuff like that, i think it's time to start learning the kit because drums are an instrument that you have to play to learn. (ACtually on second thought, you have to play to learn any instrument, which inherently prooves my point)

[jeffwj]

Do we each know other from another forum? This conversation is strangely familiar.

The lack of capital letters in Pink's posts reminds me of someone by the name of Miller. Maybe you're thinking of him.


I would also think that as a studio teacher, you're not always in a position to spend long periods of time getting people interested enough to spend years learning one thing at a time, before Christmas drumset fever wears off.



Matt,

We can always agree to disagree and still have respect for each other. That's what is great about this forum. I think you do have a point with the Christmas fever - or just drumming fever. Our society has gone from conventional ovens to microwaves in one generation. Instead of going to the library to look something up, we have a world of information at our computer. We are not even patient about that - remember dial-up?

Students want that immediate gratification when it comes to drumming. Of course we can't make them a prodigy in one lesson, but we can take that spark (or fever) and add a bit of kindling. I start a first lesson with an introduction to reading and technique. Most of the lesson is on the snare drum. I always address drum set in the last minutes of the lesson. It can be something as simple as four quarter notes on the cymbal and 2,4 on the snare drum. I may put some music on and have them play along. Their face usually lights up. That spark is being ignited. That little spark can be the inspiration for all of their practice - snare, mallets, drum set etc...

I understand the reason for pad. The teachers that I've had were heavy on technique. I'm just trying to foster that love of the instrument and allow it to grow. I see validity in your opinions too, Matt. It seems that we both have the best of intentions, but have different ways of going about it.

Jeff

[mattsmith]

The lack of capital letters in Pink's posts reminds me of someone by the name of Miller. Maybe you're thinking of him.


Yep, I agree. I had already suspected as much back in the speed thread.

Nice post and I'll bet you're a great teacher. But dial up was before my time. I may have been taught pad old school, but I want instant gratification from behind a keyboard.

I think I can at least vouch that it can be a viable approach. If for no other reason than the fact that, I've never worked a day in my life as anything other than a drummer (or at least a musician as I later delved into production), so it worked for me!

David

Hey, are you the same Dave Crigger who played with Don Ellis, Passport, Brian Auger, Elvis Costello etc? What a pleasure that you're here. Don Ellis has always been my favorite big band. The very first big band thing I ever learned were the drum parts on Final Analysis. I also have both the Ellis albums you're on, Live at Montreux and the Star Wars thing. Obviously I'm a fan.

[jeffwj]

Nice post and I'll bet you're a great teacher. But dial up was before my time. I may have been taught pad old school, but I want instant gratification from behind a keyboard.


Thanks for the kind words. I've also been thinking about the lineage of drum education. The drum set is just a bit over 100 years old. At the time Stick Control was written, there were mainly snare books out on the market. I'm not sure when the first drum set book was published. Students from that era would commonly work on snare drum with their teachers. Drum set would be picked up by listening or passed down by other players.

This is seen by looking at set players such as Joe Morello, who studied with George Lawrence Stone and Billy Gladstone. Morello states in many interviews that they gave him expert guidance with his hands - but they were not drum set players. Jim Chapin studied with Moeller, a rudimental snare drummer. It has been well stated that most players back in those days had their own sound - No "cookie cutter" drummers. Maybe this is because they had no one telling them what to play on drum set.

Then there were teachers such as Alan Dawson, who had a systematic approach to teaching drum set. He also combined technique and coordination with exercises such as the Rudimental Ritual. Method books for drum set started flooding the market. Then came drum videos and DVDs.

I guess the question here is - should we base our study/teaching on early tradition or today's standards (which evolved out of earlier traditions)? There is good argument for both sides.

Jeff

[dcrigger]

I guess the question here is - should we base our study/teaching on early tradition or today's standards (which evolved out of earlier traditions)? There is good argument for both sides.

Jeff

Jeff - You make very good points, none that I really disagree with at all. And from the way you describe your teaching, you clearly have a handle on the history of all this. My reason for posting in the first place was more to point out to those less informed historically that this "pad for a year" concept was not crazy, or coming out of nowhere - as you kind of outlined, it was pretty standard practice until not that long ago.

That being said, and in the spirit of your last question - 1.) You're right - Back in the day there was a gaping hole when it came to drum set teaching materials. You had the standard snare drum texts and the Chapin book and that was about it (I'm talking pre 1970 here). So obviously a huge need which has been filled to a great degree. But... 2.) I'm not sure that it follows that, with this material, the curve of learning the instrument necessarily changes, because.... most of the drumset texts - like the Dawson (if I recall) pretty much pre-suppose a working ability to at least play the snare drum at some functional level. Thus it would seem one can only proceed so far initially with drumset activities until the basic fundamentals of hands, grips, rhythm, and coordination have had time to catch up. (Of course, anyone who passes on the opportunity to introduce reading at this point should be taken out and shot - at least in my opinion). :-)

In my teaching in the past at Musician's Institute and the Grove School, I've sadly seen the result of teachers that let themselves and their students favor the early drumset work too quickly at the expense of initial fundamentals. Guys in their 20's that could function to a degree on the set, yet struggled with 16th hand to hand rhythms with anything but the most mundane accent patterns. Let alone any practical concepts for the use of rudiments at the drumset, blah, blah, blah. All because no one could sell to them when they were 10 or 12 that basic snare drumming isn't "technical work", but the very heart of the music of drumming. - far more so than 1/8th's in the RH, 1 & 3 on the BD, and 2 & 4 with LH.

It used to just kill me, watching these guys "get it" as they smashed into their technical brick wall, and realizing that they had to fill in these holes if they were going to move forward. Which meant, of course, seriously going back to the pad as an adult - when it REALLY isn't fun. (Think any sport - kids can sit and practice free throws for hours and days on end - adults? Not so easy.)

But I digress - my point about the books is back when the books weren't there, when one was ready for digging into set stuff, most teachers just wrote tons of stuff out by hand for their students. It wasn't like there was no drumset education just because there wasn't a lot of books. So I think what I'm suggesting is that not much about the instrument has really changed except that teachers now don't have to write so much stuff out.


Finally, even with all the wealth of drumset material out there - there is still the phase - just as there is with every improvising instrument - where the player has to start listening to, analyzing, cataloging the performance "vocabulary" - what others have done before, and why, and what parts are important to you , and what parts aren't, and playing along, etc. etc. etc. That whole period of basically self-study that I'm yet to see anyone be able to skip.

Anyway - sheesh, long post - I guess I'm saying I'm not sure that the early traditions and today's standard are really that different from each other - but when it comes to making changes to the way we as teachers were successfully taught (and at some point, we all come to believe that we know better than our teachers :-) ) that we should humbly and cautiously tread lightly.

David

[dcrigger]

Hey, are you the same Dave Crigger who played with Don Ellis, Passport, Brian Auger, Elvis Costello etc? What a pleasure that you're here. Don Ellis has always been my favorite big band. The very first big band thing I ever learned were the drum parts on Final Analysis. I also have both the Ellis albums you're on, Live at Montreux and the Star Wars thing. Obviously I'm a fan.

Yep, that's me. I just started poking my nose into this forum, of course, having visited the rest of Bernhard's marvelous site many times. So thanks, it's nice to be here.

David

[Jeff Almeyda]

Sad to say, I was one of those youths who went on to the kit without ever working on the pad. I ran into the same situation described here. I had to go back to basics as an adult when I ran into technical limitations. As Dave pointed out, not fun.

Get your hands together first, It's like the quote from Abraham Lincoln "If I had six hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend the first four hours sharpening my ax."

Sharpen your ax first.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I started drum lessons in the eighth grade along with a class of 13 other guys. We used shelving boards sitting on the top of chairs that were back to back instead of pads. Believe me 14 guys tapping on wooden shelves was quite the sound. We learned our rudiments along with learning how to read music with the goal of getting in to the junior high then senior high band. I guess some of the guys thought we were going to play on drums right away and the class dwindled down to 3 of us that went on to play all of the way through high school in the band and orchestra. I saw a snare drum toward the end of the eighth grade, and the first time I ever played to music was with our band instructor playing the theme song on the piano from the movie, The Bridge Over The River Kwai. One of the pieces of music we were learning fit into that song.

In teaching skills there is the Whole Part Whole method, and the Part Whole Part method. Here you practice the whole thing, then practice parts, then the whole again...or practice parts, then the whole piece, then parts again. Some people learn better one way, some the other. I see Max's point although a year may be too long. I do believe though that if you just use a pad for a good bit of time you can concentrate more on the rudiments and not worry about music and drum sound at that time, but think that would have something also to do with the age of the student.

[scott]

So many great replies here, and I've read them all with great interest. The fact is, I'm far from bored with my pad and the rudiments--(somewhat obsessed is more like it.) As long as I'm enjoying the process, and learning something new every day--which I am---I think I will continue this path until I have the rudiments, if not up to great speeds, at least memorized and able to use them in some combinations comfortably. I just figured by starting this way, I was laying essential groundwork that would pay off later on. It may be a year, it may be less (or more).

It simply occurs to me that by not working on my feet also, I might be delaying my progress. According to most, that is exactly what I am doing, it seems--at least as far as playing the drum kit is concerned. At least I know that the course I am laying out has some precedent, if not much currency with drum teachers today. Then again, I'm 49 and beginning drums. Hardly the typical scenario anyway. In fact I have often fought the idea that it is an eccentric (read crazy) thing to take up at my age. But I'm loving it. What can I say?

[Cymbalrider]

I started off playing drums on a snare drum. I was playing through the Vic Firth books for some time before ever deciding to play drum set. For years after I focused on concert percussion and marching percussion before really getting serious into drumset stuff. The real thing is to decide where you want to go with percussion. If you just want to be a "drummer" then start with set playing on a set. This is where guys like Louie Bellson, Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, all began. I can tell you that practice pads are not recommended for any form of percussion playing as far as long term use. You need to actually play an instrument to get the feel right which will affect your technique. Sure pads are ok to warm up on, etc. but you have got to start on some sort of drum soon. Now a Neil Peart set-up isn't going to be beneficial from the beginning, but something like a Gretsch Catalina Club kit would be a great start and carry you through several years. Playing on some real heads will also allow you to perfect your technique for different strokes as well. Certainly having bass drum and hi-hats is necessary too. Playing on a kit offers a lot of different ways to continue working on technical rudiments and such (for example playing a paradiddle with your right hand on the hi-hat and left on the snare drum makes a funk groove, throw in some bass drum and you have yourself a pattern) Plus you can't really get dynamic contrast out of a pad or learn how to tune drums, change heads, etc. (VERY IMPORTANT)

[scott]

What would be the minimal set up to begin applying rudiments to the drum kit? Would snare, bass, hi-hat and ride suffice?

I can see the wisdom of beginning to develop independence and patterns but I do want to keep it simple, with my main time/concentration spent on developing hand technique and rudimental fluency on the pad or snare alone before branching out in any big way.

I'm very much of two minds about this, as my posts show. On the one hand, satisfied and challenged working with hands alone, and on the other the feeling that I should start working in some foot technique soon.

In any case as to the original question "too soon for BD?"---the general consensus here seems to be "no", even as it's a given that any time spent concentrating on hands alone can pay huge dividends in the future.

[mattsmith]

If you just want to be a "drummer" then start with set playing on a set. This is where guys like Louie Bellson, Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, all began.

These might not be the best three examples to make such a point. Rich was a prodigy. Krupa started off as a saxophone player with a very versatile musical background, before he became a drummer.

Bellson's situation probably makes him the poster boy for the original point I was making. Bellson's dad was cool about Louie playing percussion as long as it was melodic percussion. His dad first required him to play xylophone for several months, then in his words was given a drum /not drums/, only after he had agreed to pursue, theory, ear training and composition.

Then we can take it up from Les Thompkins' 1967 interview of Bellson.
Louie Bellson: As I mentioned in the clinic that I did here I had a snare drum for seven years before I even had a chance to look at a bass drum. So I had to learn quite a bit on that snare drum-not only the 26 rudiments, but steps beyond that. Fine technical things. This pays off, too. Most of the drummers today are inclined to start playing, and after two days they get an entire set. Then they want to get at everything too fast, instead of learning one instrument at a time. Because each part of the set is an individual instrument.

I also know for a fact that Bellson works up rudiments on a pad to this day.

[punkuzz900]

I don't see the logic in this either.....That will improve one aspect of his/her technique, but the student will be at square one on day 366 when he tries to play the full instrument.

Jeff

Couldn't agree more!

[dcrigger]

Couldn't agree more!

Just thought of another take on this -

Because the whole question isn't where will the student be at day 366 but where will they be at the end year two; year three; year five.

Everything before that is not an end result, but just one of many steps in a process... to eventually be the best player possible, preferably in the shortest overall amount of time.

Anyway - take the saxophone. It is still very common practice to recommend that beginning first learn to play the clarinet than the saxophone! Clarinet is both in some ways easier to learn, yet at the same time puts more exacting demands on embouchure development - building a great foundation for later learning the saxophone. Many believe a greater foundation than can be achieved by actually starting on the saxophone.

Yes, this takes a couple of years to play out - but at five years? If the result is better?

My question will always be does the stone beginner really need to add independence to his/her already pretty full plate of counting, reading, making basic strokes with the correct hand position, and tapping the foot. I remember being pretty engaged trying to get that all together. And was quite fascinated with getting my speed up and getting faster at mastering each of the little reading etudes that went with each lesson. Always hated playing rudiments slow to fast though - much more enjoyed rudiments in etude form. Didn't just seem like it - it was playing basic drum music.

Now if you can add yet another whole direction to that and still get the same progress at the two year mark or the three, great. But I haven't seen it. I've mainly seen guys that were never helped to embrace their fundamentals, or were distracted from them to soon - and then paid the price later.

Anyway - thought the clarinet before saxophone thing was actually a far more extreme concept than snare drum basics before drum set basics - and it is real, real common.

David