building speed

[brad9292]

Naturally I am a very slow player but I have been trying to increase my playing speed lately. I've tried playing single and double stroke rolls at my fastest comfortable speed every day but I don't seem to be progressing at all. I have been doing this for a while so I'm not one of those people who did it for one day and expect instant results. What kind of things do you think I should practice to increase my speed successfully?

[blade123]

On a pillow. Set your metronome at like 90 bpm and play a roll, then the next day 93, then 95, 97, 100, keep on going.

[Victor_se]

Well as Chirs Adler Said sometime ago

"speed only come with time"

But the idea that blade123 gives you helps a lot, but i recommend you do Double strokes 'cause in my opinion in long term do double strokes in pillows can help you a lot more than just a single stroke.

If you want to Check out something else you can watch "Johnny Rabb 30 Days To Better Hands DVD" maybe you can get it in the internet or so here is the trailer of the video

http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=ogcthBz5Bsw

hope this works

[schist]

Here is an exercise that I and many others here have been doing:

Art Verdi's 30 Minute Flat Flam Workout

Warm up for 15 minutes

Then:
Play a flat flam (both sticks hit pad at same time) as triplets.

Do this at a moderate speed (say, 80 - 100BPM - slower if need be) in front of a mirror while concentrating on your technique.

Do this for at least 30-45 minutes NONSTOP. Slow down if you must but don't lock up and don't stop.

Now do this routine 5-7 x weekly for 6 months. Seek to push but never past the point at which you lock up.

It's also wise to stretch beforehand. Google "wrist stretches" or "forearm stretches".

After only 3 months of doing this, I've seen a tremendous increase in speed when on kit, from 200 to 220 - 230BPM.

[millerdakiller]

The best thing i ever did to increase my speed is learn to play paradiddles. practice those.


Other then that, i would recomend pushing yourself beyond your comfort level. Increasing the bpm by five or maybe ten onec every two days. A lot of people will tell you that this will lead to the forming of bad habits like tensing up and what not, and i disagree, and here is why. You can always adjust your technique, just because you play something one way, doesn't mean you will always play it that way. So if you get a little tense playing fast just keep going. What that means is you are working your muscles harder and making them stronger and faster. Eventually with enough conditioning, your muscles will naturally learn to play at the higher speed in a comfortable manner, but you will never get anywhere playing within your comfort zone. push your physical envelope. this is how i brought my singles and doubles speed up to the rates they are at. Approx. slightly > 900 bpm singles, approx. slightly < 1000 bpm doubles. I can play at both of these tempos cleanly and smoothly without tension, but the way i got there was by pushing myself into the 'uncomfortable' realm

[Big_Philly]

The credo for every speed related question, whether it's hand speed or foot speed: start slow, painfully slow. Then slowly speed up. Do not be surprised if you see no progress within a month - there will be none. It takes longer than that.

[schist]

The best thing i ever did to increase my speed is learn to play paradiddles. practice those.


Other then that, i would recomend pushing yourself beyond your comfort level. Increasing the bpm by five or maybe ten onec every two days. A lot of people will tell you that this will lead to the forming of bad habits like tensing up and what not, and i disagree, and here is why. You can always adjust your technique, just because you play something one way, doesn't mean you will always play it that way. So if you get a little tense playing fast just keep going. What that means is you are working your muscles harder and making them stronger and faster. Eventually with enough conditioning, your muscles will naturally learn to play at the higher speed in a comfortable manner, but you will never get anywhere playing within your comfort zone. push your physical envelope. this is how i brought my singles and doubles speed up to the rates they are at. Approx. slightly > 900 bpm singles, approx. slightly < 1000 bpm doubles. I can play at both of these tempos cleanly and smoothly without tension, but the way i got there was by pushing myself into the 'uncomfortable' realm

But obviously, when pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, you're gonna experience your hands slowing down about 10 - 20 seconds into each run.

My question: Should you slow down if you have to? Or do you just keep going at that speed till the end of the run, even if that means tensing up?

[cnw60]

find a good teacher. If you're technique is flawed and you continually practice it - in the comfort zone, out of the comfort zone, it doesn't matter... you might just be engraining bad technique. It's like trying to drive fast when the wheels of your car are out of balance - a lot of the energy is wasted in vibration. You might want to look at one of Matt Smith's WFD videos - you'll see no wasted motion, no wasted energy - just great technique and simple awesome speed.

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent.

[Phil Maturano]

find a good teacher. If you're technique is flawed and you continually practice it - in the comfort zone, out of the comfort zone, it doesn't matter... you might just be engraining bad technique. It's like trying to drive fast when the wheels of your car are out of balance - a lot of the energy is wasted in vibration. You might want to look at one of Matt Smith's WFD videos - you'll see no wasted motion, no wasted energy - just great technique and simple awesome speed.

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent.

Great post cnw' - You are right on.
Regards
PM

[Shane G]

Pillows?
For speed?

Are you serious, blade123?


Thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

Unless, of course, youre trying to become a good pillower instead of drummer.

[Vinnysimmo]

My advice would be to never listen to blade123 ever again.

[balboa]

On a pillow. Set your metronome at like 90 bpm and play a roll, then the next day 93, then 95, 97, 100, keep on going.

this can work, but dont up the beats if your not nailing it completely accurate at the tempo your at. in order to gain higher speeds, you have to work out the imperfections at the lower speeds. for instance, if you cant play a good solid single stroke roll at 80, you wont be playing a good one at 100. every couple weeks or so i pick a rudiment to do this with. i go right back to the basics and start at 60bpm. it might take me 20 minutes before i move it up to 70bpm. at the end of the two week period my overall speed increases by about 5-10bpm.
lets say last week i was playing doubles at 145bpm, hopefully in two weeks i will playing them at 150bpm. this works with any rudiment or beat. a month ago i worked on moeller for two weeks, now im working on doubles, next i will work on sextuplets. also, if it took you 30 minutes to reach your top speed, it should take you twenty minutes to reach your starting speed. this works for me, try it and hopefully it will for you. remember, this has nothing to do with strength, it has everything to do with control, technique and muscle memorization.

[blade123]

Pillows?
For speed?

Are you serious, blade123?


Thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

Unless, of course, youre trying to become a good pillower instead of drummer.

It's because there's no rebound, you have to lift the stick up and push it down all on your
own power, thus making your muscles work harder, and strengthening them more. Look it up online, it's used widely.

And balboa, yeah. If you can't play something cleanly, you can't play it period.

To the thread starter, one thing that helps eek out some extra power is technique improvements. Look online for proper technique. Also, clamp and angle your cymbals more, not like super-tight, but tight enough so they aren't bouncing up and down.

Do you have a picture of your set? Maybe we can help you set it up more comfortably, so you can eek out that last bit of power.

One last thing, remember that endurance ALWAYS comes before speed. Make sure that you can play everything now for at least 5 minutes straight, if not, just gradually play it for longer and longer, until you can.

[mattsmith]

If you want to play fast, you need to practice ultra slowly. I began at 40bpm, one hit per click, after a time it felt fast. I went a bought a sophisticated metronome (boss db-90) that goes as low as 30 bpm, and even lower, if you use accent on start of measure. After a few months, i can play faster stuff than i ever thought i could play after such a time.
As people say, if you can't play it cleanly, you can't play it at all. Can you play one hit per tick at 30 bpm? if not, why even try to play faster?

The " pushing beyond comfort zone / increasing speed gradually" stuff is garbage. It doesn't work. What will happen is you'll teach your muscles to play faster, but with tension, leading to unevenness. Tension is the last thing you want to teach your body when learning to play an instrument.

I've seen you claim this in all of your posts, and I'm in no way disputing this, because I personally have never practiced singles consistently at a tempo that slowly, although I do engage in long warmups playing singles at moderate tempos comfortably before trying other things. Your reasoning seems sound from the perspective of building more consistent playing at faster tempos.

I just wonder for how long?

I have just personally always felt that practicing speed for the sake of it was a dead end, and that if you were going in that direction, the time and effort required to get faster needed more benefits than just getting faster. I got involved with these activities to build endurance so that I would have a shot to sound as fresh on a 3rd set as I did on the first.Does this build endurance because from a physics standpoint it doesn't seem like it can, and if that speed is only good for brief spurts, does it have any practical value?

Again I don't know the other benefits of your ultra slow approach. I'm merely asking because I'm interested. Do you have video demonstrations of a practice routine?

[mattsmith]

I wish i could make some videos, but i don't have a video camera at the moment. I'll definitely make some when i have one, as they'll be good for laughs, since what happens is, to answer one of your questions: i pick a pattern amongst simple ones, rlrlr lrlr rrll llrr rlrr lrll, do one with hands, another one with feet - double pedal, mute dw smart practice pads, having changed the "snare" one for a sturdier one, since i practice with Vaters 3s which i take by the tip so they're heavier to wield-, and play this at 30 to 40 bpm, one hit per tick, for... as long as it feels good, which is usually 10 to 25 minutes. It tends to become hypnotical after 5 minutes, then you zone out, then after 20 you think "i should practice other stuff or i'm going to end up drooling". I also switch to symmetrical patterns, which creates 4 possibilities between hands and feet altogether.

I do the same for grooves, i pick one, put the metronome around 30 to 60, program it to play all subdivisions, so it will play 176 ticks for 44 bpm quarter notes for example, and play the groove, no fills, for usually 10 to 20 minutes. Same thing happens, zoning out after 5 minutes. You just enter cruise control, all strokes are relaxed, even when playing hard. The 'snap' mentioned in this thread happens.

I do totally believe that it builds up endurance since what happens is:
- You don't build tension between strokes
- If you do, you have ample time to relax
- You will relax if you build up tensioneven if you don't take notice, since its uncomfortable, and the time is long between strokes where you are feeling uncomfortable doing nothing; your body will react accordingly
- You teach your limbs to "snap" and not stay tense between strokes.
Endurance i think is a matter of not wasting energy and keeping fluid motions, with no physical chokepoints in your flesh.

I wish i could back-up all this with quality recordings or videos, but for now you'll have to take my word that starting from beginner status last year i'm able to play basic punk hardcore patterns at quite uptempo speeds for a long time, with nice groove and not moving tempo. If you can whip slowly, you can whip fast with lesser tension build-up

That's very interesting information. Yeah, it would be great to see this on a video because by the way you describe this, it kinda begs for a video demonstration, because the way you explain it makes sense. Did someone show you this or have you figured all this out on your own?

I got one more question and it regards this part of your first post.

The " pushing beyond comfort zone / increasing speed gradually" stuff is garbage. It doesn't work. What will happen is you'll teach your muscles to play faster, but with tension, leading to unevenness. Tension is the last thing you want to teach your body when learning to play an instrument.

Are you sure that's what will happen every time? See that's how I was originally trained by my teacher Vlad Popescu. When I was 12, I was always required as part of the training to go right to the endurance edge with singles, and yes go gradually faster every day. However, the tension issue was raised at the beginning. I was told that the longer I went the more relaxed I was to condition myself to become. As I've said a lot, when I first started this approach, tension wasn't the issue. My problem was that I kept dropping my sticks because they were that loose. It just seemed after a while, that when I reached an endurance wall, something would go off in my head to loosen up so I could keep going. Now my hands are loose all the time.

I also think that Tom Grossett trained himself to do something similar, and I'm almost positive that Art Verdi does this. Could this not also work? I'm not disputing your approach at all. I'm just wondering if you don't maybe think that garbage is a strong word to describe the other way.

[mattsmith]

It is of course totally exagerated to say that the pushing the limits approach doesn't work, and that it is garbage, since it obviously brings good results. I however used the word for shock value and point out the bad if not awful side effects that it develops if you don't meet the following criteria:
- Having a great teacher
- Practicing a great lot
- Paying a lot of attention to your technique, posture, and general tension

Since most people don't meet those criteria, its much more advisable to develop the opposite approach, the deliberate slow one.

Fair enough. I get the shock value logic. It's like the pillow thing and all the freaking out people do about it when its a perfectly decent exercise in limited doses. Problem is, somebody without a teacher and no self control hears about it on a forum and goes insane doing it for hours a day, thinking it's some quick fix to glory. Then a few weeks later he'll read about a detractor saying it's bad, no rebound etc. Then suddenly he stops and never strikes the pillow again.

Anyway thanks for sharing your ideas and I look forward to seeing a video of the approach.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Here is an exercise that I and many others here have been doing:

Art Verdi's 30 Minute Flat Flam Workout

Warm up for 15 minutes

Then:
Play a flat flam (both sticks hit pad at same time) as triplets.

Do this at a moderate speed (say, 80 - 100BPM - slower if need be) in front of a mirror while concentrating on your technique.

Do this for at least 30-45 minutes NONSTOP. Slow down if you must but don't lock up and don't stop.

Now do this routine 5-7 x weekly for 6 months. Seek to push but never past the point at which you lock up.

It's also wise to stretch beforehand. Google "wrist stretches" or "forearm stretches".

After only 3 months of doing this, I've seen a tremendous increase in speed when on kit, from 200 to 220 - 230BPM.

I believe that you got this from one of my posts. I'm glad it's working for you.

[schist]

I believe that you got this from one of my posts. I'm glad it's working for you.

That I did. =)

And yes, it is working for me. But what happens once the 6 months is over? Do you do another 6 months of it, at, say, 5BPM higher than your last speed?

[balboa]

If you want to play fast, you need to practice ultra slowly. I began at 40bpm, one hit per click, after a time it felt fast. I went a bought a sophisticated metronome (boss db-90) that goes as low as 30 bpm, and even lower, if you use accent on start of measure. After a few months, i can play faster stuff than i ever thought i could play after such a time.
As people say, if you can't play it cleanly, you can't play it at all. Can you play one hit per tick at 30 bpm? if not, why even try to play faster?

The " pushing beyond comfort zone / increasing speed gradually" stuff is garbage. It doesn't work. What will happen is you'll teach your muscles to play faster, but with tension, leading to unevenness. Tension is the last thing you want to teach your body when learning to play an instrument.

if you dont push beyond your comfort zone, how can you get faster? eventually you have to keep increasing speed gradually. once your out of your comfort zone, you should drop back down to a level where you can perform accurately, otherwise you wont know your boundaries. why would someone want to increase speed and tension? obviously you dont increase it to a point where your playing with tension. by not gradually increasing speed, your muscles will not memorize anything different. its not the same at 180bpm as it is at 30bpm, stick hight is different etc...this is like anything that involves muscle memorization, like weight lifting, you wouldnt stay at benching 100lbs if you want to bench 200lbs. if we didnt explore outside comfort zones, we would never learn past day one. but like i said, once bad technique is reached (i.e. tension) you should drop back to where you can maintain good technique. how will speeding up gradually with good technique lead to tension and unevenness? its like saying that if you play slowly with tension it will lead to unevenness...no kidding.... the key is to gradually speed up with out tension. Jojo Mayer stated the same as i have..i know that one technique may not work for everyone, but this one is quite universal.

[mattsmith]

if you dont push beyond your comfort zone, how can you get faster? eventually you have to keep increasing speed gradually. once your out of your comfort zone, you should drop back down to a level where you can perform accurately, otherwise you wont know your boundaries. why would someone want to increase speed and tension? obviously you dont increase it to a point where your playing with tension. by not gradually increasing speed, your muscles will not memorize anything different. its not the same at 180bpm as it is at 30bpm, stick hight is different etc...this is like anything that involves muscle memorization, like weight lifting, you wouldnt stay at benching 100lbs if you want to bench 200lbs. if we didnt explore outside comfort zones, we would never learn past day one. but like i said, once bad technique is reached (i.e. tension) you should drop back to where you can maintain good technique. how will speeding up gradually with good technique lead to tension and unevenness? its like saying that if you play slowly with tension it will lead to unevenness...no kidding.... the key is to gradually speed up with out tension. Jojo Mayer stated the same as i have..i know that one technique may not work for everyone, but this one is quite universal.

Hey Balboa, I hear you. And if you read my comments to Maurice you'll see I had some of the same thoughts, as well as first hand information that proves your POV. I certainly have practiced your way, and when you read what Art Verdi is saying, it sure sounds like he believes it too.

But if you read Maurice's answer to me, some of the things he said at least appear to make some sense. Like I said, I would really like to see some video of his method before judging it one way or the other. But based on his logic/at least to me/ it could possibly work. I'm on the fence until I see some examples I guess. In the meantime, I experimented some with Art's flam thing yesterday, because I trust Art.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Mike Mangini had me practice double bass patterns heel up ankles only at 40 BPM for 90 minute stretches. It was really a matter of programming the motion into my muscle memory while gradually building up the supporting musculature as well. After doing this for a few weeks, I was flying.

So, I would have to say that there is definitely merit to Maurice's approach. On the other hand, the Verdi approach also works.

I wonder if development is more dependent upon focus while practicing long hours than upon any particular practice methodology. In his excellent book, This is Your Brain on Music, Daniel Levitin describes how study after study on the nature of virtuosity has consistently shown that long hours practicing is the only constant factor present across the board in virtuosos. No other factor, including "talent" has near the cumulative effect that long hours of practicing does. As a matter of fact, neuroscientists have come to the conclusion that 10,000 hrs of practice (about 3 hrs a day for 7 years) makes the virtuoso.

Could it be that all approaches are basically "right" as long as correct motions are programmed into the muscle memory?

[balboa]

great information. so, in 14yrs i could be a virtuoso? hahaha i have always believed that hard work creates talent, some disagree but im a firm believer in "its not how long you practice, its what you practice for how long". im sure there is merit to both claims, but to say that one of them is "garbage" is incorrect. "one mans trash is another mans treasure"

[tomgrosset]

If you want to play fast, you need to practice ultra slowly. I began at 40bpm, one hit per click, after a time it felt fast. I went a bought a sophisticated metronome (boss db-90) that goes as low as 30 bpm, and even lower, if you use accent on start of measure. After a few months, i can play faster stuff than i ever thought i could play after such a time.
As people say, if you can't play it cleanly, you can't play it at all. Can you play one hit per tick at 30 bpm? if not, why even try to play faster?

The " pushing beyond comfort zone / increasing speed gradually" stuff is garbage. It doesn't work. What will happen is you'll teach your muscles to play faster, but with tension, leading to unevenness. Tension is the last thing you want to teach your body when learning to play an instrument.

Hey Maurice,

That's exactly how I approached it. I picked a very slow tempo and I rarely changed it. This routine proved to be very effective. For instance, I was able to win the WFD competition in Austin, Texas in 2007, and I am officially labelled as the 3rd fastest drummer in the world in all age categories because of this routine.

But I wouldn't say that the "pushing beyond comfort zone / increasing speed gradually" stuff is garbage, because it does work for some people and I have used this practice routine on some occasions.

If you're interested, you can check out my YouTube page to see me play at those blistering speeds...
http://www.youtube.com/user/TomGrosset

[Jeff Almeyda]

Tom,

How slow were you going? As slow as 30-40 BPM?

[Shane G]

It's because there's no rebound, you have to lift the stick up and push it down all on your
own power, thus making your muscles work harder, and strengthening them more. Look it up online, it's used widely.
I wonder, when you dribble a basketball, do you also lift it up after throwing it down?

You dont need to "strengthen" your muscles to move a stick.
The weight of a drumstick is very small, measured in ounces, not pounds.
The muscles required to move said drumstick are also very small.

Because of rebound, I dont have to "lift" the stick up.
All I have to do is allow my hand to follow the rebound of the stick.
Rebound that you dont get playing on a pillow.

Playing fast involes a very relaxed motion.
You cant be relaxed if your controlling or "strengthing" every movement of the stick.

[mattsmith]

I wonder, when you dribble a basketball, do you also lift it up after throwing it down?

You dont need to "strengthen" your muscles to move a stick.
The weight of a drumstick is very small, measured in ounces, not pounds.
The muscles required to move said drumstick are also very small.

Because of rebound, I dont have to "lift" the stick up.
All I have to do is allow my hand to follow the rebound of the stick.
Rebound that you dont get playing on a pillow.

Playing fast involes a very relaxed motion.
You cant be relaxed if your controlling or "strengthing" every movement of the stick.

I agree that I'm not totally on board about the semantics of this particular disagreement. But the pillow in controlled doses works as a speed tool because its an endurance exercise, and endurance is the key to acheiving speed, and everyone I know who's used this exercise at some time during their speed practice has a relaxed motion when they play. I see your point about the picking up the stick thing, but I wouldn't just throw the pillow out as a helpful concept in limited doses.

BTW, if Tom thinks Maurice is right and has actually used some of these techniques, it must be solid stuff, since Tom is the fastest drummer on this board.

[Shane G]

I agree that I'm not totally on board about the semantics of this particular disagreement. But the pillow in controlled doses works as a speed tool because its an endurance exercise, and endurance is the key to acheiving speed, and everyone I know who's used this exercise at some time during their speed practice has a relaxed motion when they play. I see your point about the picking up the stick thing, but I wouldn't just throw the pillow out as a helpful concept in limited doses.

BTW, if Tom thinks Maurice is right and has actually used some of these techniques, it must be solid stuff, since Tom is the fastest drummer on this board.
You wouldnt throw out the pillow thing, but I would.
I would disregard the pillow thing altogether.

Playing on pillows develops habits and motions that are counter-productive of playing drums (and/or drumset).

Speed is a result of time.
The more you do something (anything) the faster you get at doing it.

Endurance is developed as a result of you playing every day, not as a result of what you play on (i.e. pillows instead of snare drum)

The "key" to obtaining speed is to use a metronome, keep a journal of your tempos, and most importantly, practice EVERY DAY.



And whoever "the fastest drummer on this board" doesnt concern me.

[mattsmith]

You wouldnt throw out the pillow thing, but I would.
I would disregard the pillow thing altogether.

Playing on pillows develops habits and motions that are counter-productive of playing drums (and/or drumset).

Speed is a result of time.
The more you do something (anything) the faster you get at doing it.

Endurance is developed as a result of you playing every day, not as a result of what you play on (i.e. pillows instead of snare drum)

The "key" to obtaining speed is to use a metronome, keep a journal of your tempos, and most importantly, practice EVERY DAY.



And whoever "the fastest drummer on this board" doesnt concern me.

Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and may people interested in this topic weigh the evidence, and select the philosophy they feel works best for them.

I think it's a given that daily practice leads to endurance. Specifically the threadstarter himself even said as much when he stated his own practice habits in the original post. He also correctly stated I'm not one of those people who did it for one day and expect instant results. I then used the term limited doses, then said I understood the shock value in statements like those made by Maurice regarding another issue, since people over react and mostly over do any new thing they hear about on a drum forum. I get that. You don't want beginners going nuts with the pillow.

But your concepts that imply that pillow work causes bad habits are laid out there in a very absolute way, alongside comments like: Thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. I personally have a very relaxed hand, and I really don't believe that half hour of pillow a day for a few months back in 2003 caused a problem. Yet I did notice an immediate improvement in speed because this resistance exercise strengthened isolated areas in the hand in a very concentrated way that probably would not have happened in the every day practice routine I was involved in any way.

Now I obviously don't understand how the human body works as well as most people, I can only go with personal experience. I can also concede that the exercise worked because I just wanted it to work. I mean they say people sometimes can take fake pills and still get better. But the similar stories from better drummers known for speed, who used a pillow from time to time like Buddy Rich and Dennis Chambers, would tend to lead credence to the idea that there may be a shred of something there. They also seem pretty fluid around a drum set.

In fairness, and in case there was confusion or misunderstanding, the Maurice issue at the bottom of my last post was regarding his slow practice technique, and had no relation to your other points. Sorry for that confusion.

[balboa]

i've been practicing doubles at about 40bpm for about 20-30 a day. i will indeed try what maurice is saying and i will not up my speed any. i have done the other way, where i gradually increase speed, but i have never done this way! if i understand it correctly, i should just stay at 40 bpm or less and not increase? also, i use the online metronome, is this a good idea?

[scott]

I've been working for about a week now with Ted MacKenzie's "The Ultimate Drummers Workout". Does anyone else know about this? It supposed to improve strength and control by practicing rudiments using brushes in place of sticks. It seems to be related to the pillow theory--i.e., resistance to build endurance. Since brushes have little to no rebound, the second stroke of each double stroke has to be lifted by hand.

I'm teaching myself (with the help of Jojo and Pat P.). When I first felt the rebound and really "got" the free stroke, I was elated! The sticks almost seemed to float in my hands at times. But I didn't like the weaker sound of the second stroke rebound on my doubles. I notice in (Joe Morello for ex.) his singles are not distinguishable in sound from his doubles and paradiddles.

Someone here--sorry, can't remember who---mentioned that beginners should start out consciously making each stroke by lifting the stick and not rely too much on rebound. so essentially, this brush regime has slowed things down for me, but in a good way, I think.

Like most beginners probably, I can't seem to wait to get fast either.

Speaking of Jojo, on his DVD, he plays a fast roll on his thigh and on a pepperoni pizza (!) Obviously, even though he advocates "minimum influence" on the rebound of the stick---he isn't dependent on it. I think that's something to keep in mind.

[balboa]

there are so many ways to achieve workable results that sometimes i get confused about what to practice!haha. i myself am working on the doubles and looking for a way to enhance smoothness and fluidity, perhaps your way will work as well. i try to incorporate several different methods in my practice in hopes to achieve good results.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I wonder, when you dribble a basketball, do you also lift it up after throwing it down?

You dont need to "strengthen" your muscles to move a stick.
The weight of a drumstick is very small, measured in ounces, not pounds.
The muscles required to move said drumstick are also very small.

Because of rebound, I dont have to "lift" the stick up.
All I have to do is allow my hand to follow the rebound of the stick.
Rebound that you dont get playing on a pillow.

Playing fast involes a very relaxed motion.
You cant be relaxed if your controlling or "strengthing" every movement of the stick.

What you are saying sounds correct on the surface but in fact is not.

You definitely DO need to strengthen the finger, hand and forearm flexors in order for them to hit a drum with what any "normal" person would consider excessive speed and/or force.

A stronger muscle can contract more forcefully WITH GREATER RELAXATION than a weaker muscle can. Stronger muscles can actually relax more completely than weaker ones as well. It is a physiological fact. Athletes who train muscle groups to contract forcefully can also learn to relax them at will.

Rebound is fine when playing on a live snare but what about when you're on an 18" floor tom? Mike Mangini can play over 250 BPM with sticks on a snare or with his bare hands on his legs. He is NOT using rebound in that case. Tony Williams is another famous, incredible drummer who eschewed the "rebound" approach. Or do you think that they are wrong as well?

Also, just because you practice on a pillow for 25% of your practice routine, do your muscles somehow "forget" how to control rebound? Here's a hint: they don't. That is like an old drummer's wive's tale.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, it appears that many drummers have taken different paths to chops over the years.

One more thing... You should realize that you are speaking with two people that have better hands than you or 99.9% of all drummers WILL EVER HAVE when you speak to Matt and/or Tom. Don't cop an attitude, it belittles you.

[tomgrosset]

Tom,

How slow were you going? As slow as 30-40 BPM?

I started at 60 bpm and sometimes I moved up the tempo but I rarely passed 110 bpm, because I was able to see what my hand was doing and I had more control that way. I wanna be able to see what I'm practicing and really analyze it. And sure, I did try moderately fast tempos but I didn't see the benefit. You have to pick a tempo that puts you in full control and the way I look at it is if you slow it down, you can see where you're going wrong and really improve.

For those who are new here, don't fall for the idea that you should spend all your time working on specific parts of your hand like your fingers or wrists, because from my experience, you have to learn how to use both.

And honestly, it's really stupid to watch people debate about what idea works when really it comes down to the individual. Any person can be naive and say that using a pillow is a waste of time, but you've got to take into accuont that there is a possibility that the individual was practicing too fast and/or wasn't practicing properly and/or wasn't paying enough attention to what he/she was practicing.

When it comes down to it, the smart thing to do would be learning to experiment.

[balboa]

some top drummers hardly ever rely rebound, but they can also use it when they want. i would say the best method of practice would be to work with rebound then work with out rebound. it is totally true that one can easily rely on rebound when on the snare, hats, or high toms, but the lower toms can be very troublesome. thus, if your hands are well versed in both areas, when it comes time to use these lower, looser more reverberating drums, you will be able to adapt and roll smoothly, easily and tension free. One thing that moeller gave me was increased wrist power, so even with out the rebound, i can still roll well. of course....it will never be good enough!

[GregPorter]

I like to believe that there is no correct way to achieve greater speed, or precision, etc.
So I strongly recommend that you just sit in front of a practice pad and DON'T play...
Just think about what you can do to make your practice more efficient.
A lot of people when see that there is a problem with their technique, they head over to the drums and just practice that all day, every day, and many ways possible... Witch is not wrong. But since, as you said, that isn't working for you... try to switch to a more intellectual approach, other than just practicing it constantly.

But answering your question, what worked for me in matter of speed was start focusing on the grip. There are a lot of players, among them some great players such as Jack D' Jhonnett, Joe Morrelo, etc... who used a really choked grip in the right hand... witch is when your grip is in the thumb and the second finger, and this way you force your hand to turn to the left when actually the right position (and I'm saying based on basic anatomy studies) would be your palm to face down. I find it more relaxing, and it sounds much better, if you use the grip on the thumb and the third finger (middle finger), with forces you (most of the time) to turn your hand to the right position.
For further studies about this approach I recommend you buying the Dave Weckl- Natural Evolution- How to develop technique and How to practice (And for those Weckl haters witch I know there are a lot of them... don't worry, you will not necessarily turn into a Dave Weckl, witch is not bad at all, but you will get a lot of comfort while playing).
And to further this study, If you want, buy/trade/download all Tonny Williams and Buddy Rich videos you can. Pay attention on Tonny's left hand when he does a fast, and loud, single stroke... if you follow all the steps and then see Tonny's videos... you'll know what I mean.
Well, that's it for grip.
Basically I think that if you can master this approach... speed will start to feel like nothing to you... at least it did to me.
(Or you can do it on the pillow like everyone else but at some point you can go to the hospital... unless your like Dennis Chambers... he did it on the pillow... looks like it worked out for him... but I don't recommend)

Well that's all, hope I could help.
Good luck man

[PinkZepplin]

But obviously, when pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, you're gonna experience your hands slowing down about 10 - 20 seconds into each run.

My question: Should you slow down if you have to? Or do you just keep going at that speed till the end of the run, even if that means tensing up?

keep pushing it even if you tense up. the end result is that your muscles will work harder. You can go back and fine tune your technique later, but your muscles are never going to learn to move that fast unless you make them

[PinkZepplin]

Pillows?
For speed?

Are you serious, blade123?


Thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

Unless, of course, youre trying to become a good pillower instead of drummer.

No, this works if you are practicing strictly gladstone. I don't really use this practice technique anymore because i've been trying to incorporate moller strokes into my playing and practice a lot more lately, but this technique does yield production if you use the gladstone technique.

[Latin Groover]

keep pushing it even if you tense up. the end result is that your muscles will work harder. You can go back and fine tune your technique later, but your muscles are never going to learn to move that fast unless you make them

I very strongly disagree. If you ever feel tension, let alone the 'just push through it approach.' You should stop. Tension will kill you. If you 'continue to push through it' you can do some real damage. Technique is not a tense twitch, it is control. If your tense your not fully in control, so just bring it down a few clicks.

[Latin Groover]

No, this works if you are practicing strictly gladstone. I don't really use this practice technique anymore because i've been trying to incorporate moller strokes into my playing and practice a lot more lately, but this technique does yield production if you use the gladstone technique.

I don't see how practicing on a surface with no rebound, can assist with Gladstone; a technique based sorely on rebound?...

[GregPorter]

I think it takes you nowhere to ask these things on the internet...
Each person has his/her body shaped in a unique way... so maybe what's tensioned for one isn't for another.
There are some positions that are always a tension position for anyone, like the right palm facing left when playing. But these are just a few positions.
Try a bunch of ways.
The worst result you can get is finding out what you cannot do.

[Vinnysimmo]

No, this works if you are practicing strictly gladstone. I don't really use this practice technique anymore because i've been trying to incorporate moller strokes into my playing and practice a lot more lately, but this technique does yield production if you use the gladstone technique.

I completely disagree.

[mattsmith]

I think tomgrosset and GregPorter are totally correct in saying that what works for you is an individual thing. The pillow for instance will work for some, including some of the fastest drummers who ever lived, while guys like Shane aren't convinced. And if you can't rationalize the value of a technique, you should stay away from it and try something else. I can't think of any practice routine worse than one you can't get yourself to believe in.

I also agree with Greg that you don't get definitive answers on the Internet, which led me to believe that he was suggesting /as Tom did/ to experiment to see what works best for you. I would add you get a teacher to have a look at your particulars as well. Teaching DVDs like Jojo Mayer's are great too, but you need to have someone check out your own physical issues close up, and Jojo can't do that trapped in a round piece of plastic.

Tom Grosset, who has some of the fastest hands on the planet, says that Maurice's approach is identical to the same thing he experimented with himself before he anilhilated a number of world speed drumming records. Personally that's enough for me.

On the other hand, many others known for speed, have used a push to the limits approach, although carefully monitored and always focusing on a relaxed hand that encourages even more relaxation the longer you go. So far most on this thread seem to agree that these two approaches are strong possibilities for success in a universal way.

However, I'm pretty certain Pink Zepplin's push through approach will lead to trouble, because people without supervision who obsess, will try this until their hands fall off/ with bad results.

When it comes to extreme limits pushing, the people who know me on this board are aware that I'm game for it, as evidenced by my holding the world speed endurance record. But even for me there are limits. Now this is aside from my still having a lot to learn about music, playing percussion etc...I'm just talking about the stuff discussed in this thread. So before we get sidetracked with lectures and side remarks I just wanted to clear that up.

That said, I would never in a million years push through discomfort. Carpal is real. The faster you go, the more aware of your body you have to be. When you keep pushing past those limits your body is in unknown territory, and IMO that's a bad place to be. When I'm in that situation I at least want to slow down so I know where I am, or stop completely and think for a minute, as opposed to just barrelling through.

For those of us who use a push to the limit approach, we relax when we get tired and the minute there is discomfort we stop. When I ref WFDs, we scream at these crazy people who are obviously past their limit. Sometimes they stop, sometimes they don't. But I have noticed that all the guys with that mindset have really bad technique and are always limited.

Pushing beyond what you're sure of seems like a dead end, and I think it's a big gamble.

[Shane G]

Wow, thats quite a post, Jeff.

Last things first - Tom hasnt said anything to me, nor me to him, so I dont know where youre coming from on that.
Matt apologized for his "fastest drummer on this board" comment, which I understood.

But more importantly, my original comment about the non-pillow issue was for blade123, who responded, and we were trading comments about.

Then Matt, and now you, Jeff, piled on me with further explanations and accusations.
In addition, PinkZepplin has now chimed in on the pillow technique will work for Gladstone as well.

So, I dont understand the negativity towards me in this thread, especially when Im not the only one posting against the use of pillows.

Regardless, on to your post:

What you are saying sounds correct on the surface but in fact is not.

You definitely DO need to strengthen the finger, hand and forearm flexors in order for them to hit a drum with what any "normal" person would consider excessive speed and/or force.

A stronger muscle can contract more forcefully WITH GREATER RELAXATION than a weaker muscle can. Stronger muscles can actually relax more completely than weaker ones as well. It is a physiological fact. Athletes who train muscle groups to contract forcefully can also learn to relax them at will.
Im not debating the semantics of how &/or why muscles do what they do, because Im not a medical doctor & Im pretty sure youre not either.

That said....the muscle control & strength involved in moving a drumstick is small.
Ridiculously small.

I didnt say you dont need those muscles, I said they dont have to be "strengthened" as in weight training.



Rebound is fine when playing on a live snare but what about when you're on an 18" floor tom? Mike Mangini can play over 250 BPM with sticks on a snare or with his bare hands on his legs. He is NOT using rebound in that case. Tony Williams is another famous, incredible drummer who eschewed the "rebound" approach. Or do you think that they are wrong as well?
Mike most certainly is using rebound if he's playing on a snare.

And if he's playing on his legs, well....he's not playing drums then, so what difference does that make?

Yes.....Im well aware of who Tony Williams is.
And if for one second you want me to believe that Tony "eschewed" the "rebound approach" (as you put it) - youre crazy.
Ive never heard of anyone who studied w/Dawson who was told to disregard the rebound of the stick.

Enlighten me, if youd like.



Also, just because you practice on a pillow for 25% of your practice routine, do your muscles somehow "forget" how to control rebound? Here's a hint: they don't. That is like an old drummer's wive's tale.
Lastly, I never said your muscles would "forget" anything.

I said that playing on a pillow " develops habits and motions that are counter-productive of playing drums."

[mattsmith]

Well Shane, I think the original vibe about you came from this.

Pillows?
For speed?

Are you serious, blade123?


Thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

Unless, of course, youre trying to become a good pillower instead of drummer.

Man, nobody was looking for trouble. But just from personal experience, and because I partially agreed with blade I was guilty by association . Therefore your words applied to me, because I have used a pillow. However with me the procedure worked, I am fast/not to be confused with musical/, I don't say ridiculous things, I am not a pillower, and yes I am serious.

Let's also make sure everybody also understands this comment.

Matt apologized for his "fastest drummer on this board" comment, which I understood..

I was speaking of Tom Grossett who is absolutely the fastest drummer on this board, a very relevant comment when discussing speed in a speed thread, and one that was very obvious in my post. When that statement is taken out of context it appears as if I'm discussing myself, which I wasn't. I don't think you meant to do that, but I think you understand how these misunderstandings happen...which leads me to this...

Then Matt, and now you, Jeff, piled on me with further explanations and accusations...

Actually no that didn't happen. I think you misunderstood. My last mention of you was...

The pillow for instance will work for some, including some of the fastest drummers who ever lived, while guys like Shane aren't convinced. And if you can't rationalize the value of a technique, you should stay away from it and try something else. I can't think of any practice routine worse than one you can't get yourself to believe in....

...which I think clearly inferred to each his own. But I apologize if that wasn't made clear.

But, you then decided to rant over Jeff Almeyda, a first call New York studio musician and the official tech consultant on this board, before calling him crazy. That point does seem very clear.

This has been a great thread, and for a speed thread a pretty smart one, where most guys stated a point, people respectfully debated the pros and cons, and in the case of Maurice's theories, even made some converts. Plus everybody seemed to learn something including the so called fast players.

Most forums don't even allow this conversation before trolls shout it down. I don't think any of us want to have posts deleted here or a really good thread locked. But there always seems to be somebody in a speed thread who doesn't want to play nice, and try to make the whole thing about him and not the topic. I think you've made your feelings about pillows very clear. But I also think that most people didn't agree with your presentation. That doesn't make us ridiculous. It just means we don't agree on this one topic.

That's all.

[Vinnysimmo]

My personal approach to building speed is to push as much as i can, while always staying relaxed. But saying that, im fairly slow, i probably only manage about 600-700 in one minute.

[Shane G]

Youre right Matt, its not about me.

If I gave that impression, Im sorry.

Id also like to apologize to blade123, Jeff Almeyda, PinkZepplin, and anyone else I might have offended &/or disagreed with on this speed issue.


You guys obviously have this speed thing down, and Im ill-informed.

I'll get out my pillows tonight & start my work.

[tomgrosset]

I'll get out my pillows tonight & start my work.

Don't forget to use a practice pad as well.

[SickRick]

Very interesting conversation. I'll throw in my two cents of what has worked for me lately:

First, I totally agree with Matt about the endurance thing: The most important thing about getting faster is to get endurance - this has also the nice benefit to get through longer gigs which is great for me. Endurance is gained by working on two things: Playing for long periods of time and relaxation. The way I do it is to play for long periods of time at a tempo that allows me to play relaxed.

Now here comes my problem: I get bored really fast with that kind of stuff which means that I have to do something to entertain myself, so I came up with this:

I put together a playlist of Songs that feature 16th note HiHat patterns like James Browns Funky Drummer as an example. What I do is play each song in the playlist righthanded and then lefthanded. There are many benefits to this:

- I work on endurance because it forces me to play for long periods of time
- I work on coordination because I interchange between righthanded and lefthanded playing
- I isolate the hand that is playing fast
- I play some grooves which is great and a lot of fun which keeps me motivated
- Depending on the songs that I play, I really have to push myself or can play relaxed because some are faster and others are slower.


For me that is a great way of working on that stuff. If I don't have the time to do that on a drumset I do it before I go to sleep on a pad or on some other surface (matress, pillow... whatever).

I always fond it extremely important to have fun while practising, otherwise I drop the routine pretty fast...

What I also found is that pure single stroke speed doesn't always apply to the set, so I also work on the John Riley uptempo stuff (beyond bop drumming) and the JoJo Mayer Moeller on drums exercise (Secret Weapons for the modern drummer, DVD2).

I also do the JoJo Mayer clapping thing which I think is a great exercise - I do it a lot when I am sitting in a train (which I do a lot unfortunately).

[OldStampK]

I've been drumming all my life, but I'm fairly new to speed building side of practice. Speed has never seemed like primary goal given my style of playing. Lately I've been inspired to give speed chance and I've been practicing about an hour a day to build hand speed.

I'm using the Jo Jo Meyer chops factory section from the DVD as a template, starting slowly playing 16th notes up to 100 counts on one hand, then the other, then combining the two for a slow single stroke roll. Then I bump up the metronome setting. If you've seen the DVD you know the drill. I was working on in both trad and matched grips, but decided that matched is the way to go based on the progress being made in matched as opposed to trad.

I find that as I raise the bar I have to adjust the technique I use. At slower speeds, I can use more of a free stick technique with a very loose grip between the thumb and middle finger, or even just letting the stick rest in my fingers with not much of a real fulcrum at all. As I get faster (I won't mention the metronome settings I'm at for fear of looking extremely lame) I find that I need to incorporate more finger, which of course reduces my endurance. As I approach my top speed I drop down from 100 beats to 30 or 50 to keep from tensing up. Any way, I'm wondering if any of you speed demons have any suggestions. It looks like it's going to be a long haul. I like the idea of flat flams. Maybe I'll try that too.

I know Tony advocated using wrist technique only. It seems unbelievable that he could get such speed without using much in the way of finger technique, but he claimed that everything was wrist. I'm skeptical, because clearly he used an open-closed technique when playing ride cymbal.

[PinkZepplin]

However, I'm pretty certain Pink Zepplin's push through approach will lead to trouble, because people without supervision who obsess, will try this until their hands fall off/ with bad results.

When it comes to extreme limits pushing, the people who know me on this board are aware that I'm game for it, as evidenced by my holding the world speed endurance record. But even for me there are limits. Now this is aside from my still having a lot to learn about music, playing percussion etc...I'm just talking about the stuff discussed in this thread. So before we get sidetracked with lectures and side remarks I just wanted to clear that up.

That said, I would never in a million years push through discomfort. Carpal is real. The faster you go, the more aware of your body you have to be. When you keep pushing past those limits your body is in unknown territory, and IMO that's a bad place to be. When I'm in that situation I at least want to slow down so I know where I am, or stop completely and think for a minute, as opposed to just barrelling through.

For those of us who use a push to the limit approach, we relax when we get tired and the minute there is discomfort we stop. When I ref WFDs, we scream at these crazy people who are obviously past their limit. Sometimes they stop, sometimes they don't. But I have noticed that all the guys with that mindset have really bad technique and are always limited.

Pushing beyond what you're sure of seems like a dead end, and I think it's a big gamble.

Maybe I wasn't Clear. I am not advocating pushing your wrists until they are sore, i just think that if you stay within your 'comfort zone' you will not advance. If that means you tense up a little bit then so be it. Once you've pushed yourself a little bit you'll be able to play at that tempo without tensing and with good technique, but you can't do that until your muscles are capable. and the only way to build muscle is to work them beyond thier limits. ASk any professional athlete or bodybuilder. And by the same token, those same athlete's and body builders will advise you to know your limits which I agree with. It is not beneficial to keep pounding and pounding on a pillow as fast as you can with no regard for technique, but not moving outside of your comfort zone will be equally detrimental.

[gusty]

I haven't read through the whole thing, but im just going to say something about my routine...

I started practise single strokes at 50bpm for 30m, 16th notes, based on advice from Jeff Almeyda. I would move up the tempo 10 clicks after 6 practise sessions.

I got up to about 110bpm, when i stopped practising for about 3 weeks or so. I started practising this single stroke method a couple of days ago (2 months after i stopped).

I moved the tempo back to 100bpm and am doing it for 30 minutes at a time, but ill only move it up to 110 after about...im thinking 12 sessions, but would you suggest more?

Anyway, a little off-topic but i can see the logic in this routine. Once i get up to, maybe, 140 ish, i may have to do some more sessions and/or move the tempo upless everytime. But that's my routine, and I think it'll work for my goals.

[SickRick]

I haven't read through the whole thing, but im just going to say something about my routine...

I started practise single strokes at 50bpm for 30m, 16th notes, based on advice from Jeff Almeyda. I would move up the tempo 10 clicks after 6 practise sessions.

I got up to about 110bpm, when i stopped practising for about 3 weeks or so. I started practising this single stroke method a couple of days ago (2 months after i stopped).

I moved the tempo back to 100bpm and am doing it for 30 minutes at a time, but ill only move it up to 110 after about...im thinking 12 sessions, but would you suggest more?

Anyway, a little off-topic but i can see the logic in this routine. Once i get up to, maybe, 140 ish, i may have to do some more sessions and/or move the tempo upless everytime. But that's my routine, and I think it'll work for my goals.


Do you play the 16th notes one handed or hand to hand? Because if you play them one handed, that is quite a good tempo already! (140 would be crazy... wow).

Anyway, sounds like a good routine to me, but boring. If you can find some songs in the required Tempo, it'll be a lot more fun. Check out these Songs:

Funky Drummer (James Brown)
Valdez in the country (Donny Hathaway)

For some excellent 16th note Grooves. Once your able to play through these two songs leading with both hands without stopping and playing the 16th note beat through the whole thing, you will have achieved quite something. Also both beats are really really cool.

Funky Drummer is around 92 - 96 (moves a lot) for 7 minutes. Quite a challange. Valdez in the Country is at 104 if I remember correctly, but it is not that long (around three minutes).

Have fun!

[PinkZepplin]

Hey thanks for that PinkZepplin. That makes a lot more sense, and shows that you are probably explaining the push to the limit approach that several of us here also endorse. I think originally that was a little unclear to some of your detractors. Now I get it.

Much appreciated.


On the contrary, I say push oust your limits. Just not to the point of insanity

[gusty]

Do you play the 16th notes one handed or hand to hand? Because if you play them one handed, that is quite a good tempo already! (140 would be crazy... wow).

Anyway, sounds like a good routine to me, but boring. If you can find some songs in the required Tempo, it'll be a lot more fun. Check out these Songs:

Funky Drummer (James Brown)
Valdez in the country (Donny Hathaway)

For some excellent 16th note Grooves. Once your able to play through these two songs leading with both hands without stopping and playing the 16th note beat through the whole thing, you will have achieved quite something. Also both beats are really really cool.

Funky Drummer is around 92 - 96 (moves a lot) for 7 minutes. Quite a challange. Valdez in the Country is at 104 if I remember correctly, but it is not that long (around three minutes).

Have fun!

Nah, just alternating strokes...140bpm would be crazy haha. It can get pretty boring, but playing mind games with myself helps a bit. Like, closing my eyes for as long as possible, etc. It's quite rewarding at the end of it all though.
Doing the songs would be another good idea.

[OldStampK]

I went home this weekend and tried out playing flat flam triplets for a half hour. I got so bored after about 15 minutes it made me question how serious I actually am about this speed thing. Maybe I was just having a bad day.

[schist]

I went home this weekend and tried out playing flat flam triplets for a half hour. I got so bored after about 15 minutes it made me question how serious I actually am about this speed thing. Maybe I was just having a bad day.

Yeah - and to be honest, you probably should be asking yourself "Do I really want to become faster?"

Workouts like this are an exercise in resolve as well as relaxation. I can get through the whole 30 minutes at 100BPM uninterrupted, even with excruciating skin itches popping up. It all comes down to determination and desire. Sometimes I'll even do the exercise 2, maybe 3 times a day (usually if I missed the day before).

Not to sound accusatory or anything, I'm merely telling it like it is.

[dr.rockso]

the best way i have found to build speed is to get your hands on a metronome and find your best speed where u can still stay very relaxed then build your chops from there. a good motivational tool is to watch morgan agren videos and solos and say to youself thats my goal!

[Jeff Almeyda]

I went home this weekend and tried out playing flat flam triplets for a half hour. I got so bored after about 15 minutes it made me question how serious I actually am about this speed thing. Maybe I was just having a bad day.

The answer to boredom is to concentrate on your form. If you are monitoring and correcting your form on the fly then there's no time to be bored because your mind is engaged.

Another concept is to mentally break the time period ( I often go over 90 mins nonstop) into shorter ones. I like to think in 15 minute blocks. I do 6 reps of that and there's my 90 minutes. You can use smaller blocks or even count measures. Whatever work for you and the length of time that you are practicing.

[mosher]

Finding out how your hands are working and practicing super slow is the answer
Most drummers are practicing always at high gear and don't have a clue what's realling going on with their hands
Grossett had the right answer and it shows in his super technique

[aboylikedave]

From my experience as a beginner, it is of little use practising all these routines if your basic technique won't allow increases in speed. I practiced kick drum technique for hours and hours to little real effect. But when I had my technique sorted out I saw result after just one more hours practice.

Get a teacher who knows about techique. Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice with the correct technique does!!!!

[tomgrosset]

Finding out how your hands are working and practicing super slow is the answer
Most drummers are practicing always at high gear and don't have a clue what's realling going on with their hands
Grossett had the right answer and it shows in his super technique

Mosher is absolutely right. There are so many drummers who practice at fast tempos when they should be slowing it down to see what's going on.

I'd also like to mention that I never really had a teacher show me how to practice technique and drumming in general for that matter. I'm a self-taught musician. I did a lot of research, experimented, and I was very finical with my technique. This proves that you are capable of doing anything if you set your mind to it and if you feel you're confident in your abilities.

[mosher]

A lot of drummers feel to play fast you must always practice fast
I always felt that speed follows control
To get control of the sticks one must start out very slow and build

[tajtonic]

i've found that although it is a very small factor, general muscular arm strength can contribute to speed... i'm not saying that lifting weights alone will help you improve at all. but with greater muscle strength, one has greater potential for gain. more strength equals greater ease for each stroke, greater easer equals greater endurance. we can all play a very fast single stroke triplet, but repeating it is the problem. our muscles get sore. just a theory. control is also very important. I mean, look at tony williams or dennis chambers. those dudes have some serious arm strength.

[OldStampK]

Yeah - and to be honest, you probably should be asking yourself "Do I really want to become faster?"

Workouts like this are an exercise in resolve as well as relaxation. I can get through the whole 30 minutes at 100BPM uninterrupted, even with excruciating skin itches popping up. It all comes down to determination and desire. Sometimes I'll even do the exercise 2, maybe 3 times a day (usually if I missed the day before).

Not to sound accusatory or anything, I'm merely telling it like it is.

I appreciate your honesty. I'm not really a fanatic for speed. It seems like there are thousands of DVD-educated fast players who have absolutely nothing to say on their instrument. I think I'll go the other direction and become an excellent wide open spacious player with thousands of ideas executed at an only above-average level of chops.

On the other hand... maybe I'll stick with this speed thing just a little longer and see where it takes me.

[Matt-a-tat-tat]

I've found that just like in weight lifting (where you HAVE to give the muscles a break to heal and build) that if I practice very hard for several days to a week then take an entire week off: when I come back and practice again, I have gotten faster and have better control. Plus the risk of injury is smaller, strength is gained as well. It really does work. I know this is hard to do because every drummer wants to play ALL THE TIME, and a gigging musician plays often. But still, don't underestimate rest. Rest is just as, if not more, important than work/exercise. Maybe rest isn't THE key, but it is A key.

I started doing single strokes as fast as I possibly can (not worrying too much about time) for extended periods of time. Then I switch to double stroke rolls, triple stroke rolls, shirley murphys, chud a cheeses, etc. Rudiments, rudiments, rudiments! as fast as I can play them. Back to single stroke rolls. Then slower (minding time, dynamics and such). Play along to songs. I do this for like I said above. Then I just don't play at all for a week. Or a few days. I think about patterns during this rest.

But then again, nobody seems to take my advice so . . . whatever. It works for me.

[King Of Drums]

Here is an exercise that I and many others here have been doing:

Art Verdi's 30 Minute Flat Flam Workout

Warm up for 15 minutes

Then:
Play a flat flam (both sticks hit pad at same time) as triplets.

Do this at a moderate speed (say, 80 - 100BPM - slower if need be) in front of a mirror while concentrating on your technique.

Do this for at least 30-45 minutes NONSTOP. Slow down if you must but don't lock up and don't stop.

Now do this routine 5-7 x weekly for 6 months. Seek to push but never past the point at which you lock up.

It's also wise to stretch beforehand. Google "wrist stretches" or "forearm stretches".

After only 3 months of doing this, I've seen a tremendous increase in speed when on kit, from 200 to 220 - 230BPM.

Thanks for that exercise man. I've been doing it for a week and a half and can already see results. Can't wait to see how good the results will be after 6 months.

[druid]

Mike Mangini had me practice double bass patterns heel up ankles only at 40 BPM for 90 minute stretches. It was really a matter of programming the motion into my muscle memory while gradually building up the supporting musculature as well. After doing this for a few weeks, I was flying.



Jeff when you worked on this the motion was ONLY from the ankle then? I ask becuase after years of playing double bass lately I have been working on really pushing my spectrum speed wise into another new area. I have been working heel toe alot for double bass double strokes ( which are getting there gradually) and also noticed my regular old singles ( heel up mostly ankle) have speed up ALOT after working on other areas. This is true with double bass grooves that have quick bursts...my "burst" is much better from working different parts of the lower leg/foot/ankle.

[mrsbarker17]

Pillows?
For speed?

Are you serious, blade123?


Thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

Unless, of course, youre trying to become a good pillower instead of drummer.

first off, PILLOW DRUMMING IS THE SIMPLIST AND BEST TENIQUE TO STRENGTHEN YOUR HANDS AND SPEED. any smart drummer and teacher will tell you.
second, if u can play flawless doubles on a pillow, what would it sound on the hard surface of a snare? its the most beautiful thing a drummer would hear

[king fail]

first off, PILLOW DRUMMING IS THE SIMPLIST AND BEST TENIQUE TO STRENGTHEN YOUR HANDS AND SPEED. any smart drummer and teacher will tell you.
second, if u can play flawless doubles on a pillow, what would it sound on the hard surface of a snare? its the most beautiful thing a drummer would hear

PILLOW DRUMMING SUCKS.
It will ruin your touch on the drums, bastardise your dynamics and just generally fails.

don't try and cheat your way into speed, sounding good is more important than speed and you should never sacrifice your sound for agility.


Jeez, get secret weapons :)

[Ian Ballard]

PILLOW DRUMMING SUCKS.
It will ruin your touch on the drums, bastardise your dynamics and just generally fails.

don't try and cheat your way into speed, sounding good is more important than speed and you should never sacrifice your sound for agility.


Jeez, get secret weapons :)

Are you thinking for yourself, or letting "the new Messiah of Drumming" think for you?

Pillow practice, in moderation, is a fantastic tool.

The only thing that "will ruin your touch on the drums, bastardise your dynamics and just generally fails" is you, as a musician.

No technique ruins you. You ruin you. Period. I've had hundreds of satisfied students, who are very fast and precise, who are also fantastic musicians, who use MODERATE pillow practice. How on Earth do you prepare for playing crisp, precise doubles on a slack-tuned tom, if you only practice using bouncy, "stored potential energy" pads and drums? You can't. There needs to be some form of resistance in your practice, so you can smoothly transition from a tight-tuned drum to a slack-tuned one. But if "so and so awesome drummer" says you don't... that is truth? I'd say try everything and see if it works for you... and not rely on some DVD to train you.

This idea that some kind of particular practice will "ruin you" has everything to do with you, the musicians you play with and your teacher. To say one form of practice or another is bad, based solely on the opinion of a couple drummers who don't use it, is incredulous and nonsensical.

[m1ck]

You wouldnt throw out the pillow thing, but I would.
I would disregard the pillow thing altogether.

Playing on pillows develops habits and motions that are counter-productive of playing drums (and/or drumset). ...

But what if you want to develop fast rolls on large toms? They offer little/no rebound. If the head is in motion and happens to be moving downward at the exact moment of contact, (which is not a rare occurrence,) that stick is not coming back up by itself. Anyone who has attempted a roll on a floor tom has experienced this. Depending on where that head is in its range of vibration when struck, the stick may rebound or it may stop like it hit a wet sponge. Or what if you want to play fast rolls on partially open hats? No rebound there, either.

Makes sense to me that a drummer should practice on all kinds of surfaces from springy practice pads to phone books and pillows, because no two drums on the kit feel exactly the same.

And whoever "the fastest drummer on this board" doesnt concern me.

Well, considering the thread title is "building speed," I'd say it's relevant.

[Ian Ballard]

But what if you want to develop fast rolls on large toms? They offer little/no rebound. If the head is in motion and happens to be moving downward at the exact moment of contact, (which is not a rare occurrence,) that stick is not coming back up by itself. Anyone who has attempted a roll on a floor tom has experienced this. Depending on where that head is in its range of vibration when struck, the stick may rebound or it may stop like it hit a wet sponge. Or what if you want to play fast rolls on partially open hats? No rebound there, either.

Makes sense to me that a drummer should practice on all kinds of surfaces from springy practice pads to phone books and pillows, because no two drums on the kit feel exactly the same.

Amen, brother!!! ;)

[bart60]

PILLOW DRUMMING SUCKS.
It will ruin your touch on the drums, bastardise your dynamics and just generally fails.

don't try and cheat your way into speed, sounding good is more important than speed and you should never sacrifice your sound for agility.

I say that practising on pillows is the thing to do if you know you're going to play on hard surfaces, say in a military marching band, or just want everyone to really hear every single stroke, in a double stroke roll for example. It is also great to use if you want to increase your stroke strength. I used it to increase my ability to hit hard with traditional grip, did a few 5 minute periods for a few days and voilà.

But I agree that if you wanna play drum set, then maybe you could try out some different techniques instead of playing on pillows.

[centralzeke]

Large toms actually do offer enough rebound for the stick to go back, if your technique is right.

Oh and I think if you want to work on your rolls on large toms, YOU SHOULD PRACTICE ON LARGE TOMS.

[Ian Ballard]

Large toms actually do offer enough rebound for the stick to go back, if your technique is right.

I think the "if your technique is right", pretty much debunks the notion that a significant degree of rebound is readily available to the stick. You have to develop the technique, if the lack of "stored potential energy" hinders stick rebound.

Oh and I think if you want to work on your rolls on large toms, YOU SHOULD PRACTICE ON LARGE TOMS.

That's great, if you don't have to worry about bothering others with the sound. It needs not be said, silent means of practice are part and parcel to a drummer's practice equipment.

[peoplelikeme]

learn mholler(i have no i idea how to spell that, sorry)
try open close with your doubles- id check out jojo mayers stuff.
work on multiple strokes with each hands, starting with 3's and going to 5's and 7's.
thats all i got.

[blink44]

its spelled moeller
also listen to jim chapin, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmRaIIm5EoA .
focus on music than speed will come over time.

[Wavelength]

I've never used a pillow as a part of my routine, so I won't get into discussing its effectiveness, but I've found that working on various accent exercises is a great way to develop control, endurance and the muscles that are used for the upstroke -- even moreso, if you use formal wrist motion instead of the Moeller whipping motion. Pick up your copy of Syncopation and go through the Syncopation exercises using a few different accenting interpretations, and you'll develop a nice burn in no time.

[drumpunk]

I just start out slowing with single stroke quarter notes, then 8th notes, etc. I found out that practicing on a pillow actually messes me up when i go back 2 my drums, it feels to different. i just use a practice pad.
o yeah, dont have 2 but i like 2 listen to a fast drummer before i go practice just to give me some confidence & how fast i want 2 b.

[Andy Borghi]

HEY GUYS.... IF DENNIS CHAMBERS PRACTICES ON PILLOWS I GUESS IT WORKS RIGHT????


Well Shane, I think the original vibe about you came from this.



Man, nobody was looking for trouble. But just from personal experience, and because I partially agreed with blade I was guilty by association . Therefore your words applied to me, because I have used a pillow. However with me the procedure worked, I am fast/not to be confused with musical/, I don't say ridiculous things, I am not a pillower, and yes I am serious.

Let's also make sure everybody also understands this comment.



I was speaking of Tom Grossett who is absolutely the fastest drummer on this board, a very relevant comment when discussing speed in a speed thread, and one that was very obvious in my post. When that statement is taken out of context it appears as if I'm discussing myself, which I wasn't. I don't think you meant to do that, but I think you understand how these misunderstandings happen...which leads me to this...



Actually no that didn't happen. I think you misunderstood. My last mention of you was...



...which I think clearly inferred to each his own. But I apologize if that wasn't made clear.

But, you then decided to rant over Jeff Almeyda, a first call New York studio musician and the official tech consultant on this board, before calling him crazy. That point does seem very clear.

This has been a great thread, and for a speed thread a pretty smart one, where most guys stated a point, people respectfully debated the pros and cons, and in the case of Maurice's theories, even made some converts. Plus everybody seemed to learn something including the so called fast players.

Most forums don't even allow this conversation before trolls shout it down. I don't think any of us want to have posts deleted here or a really good thread locked. But there always seems to be somebody in a speed thread who doesn't want to play nice, and try to make the whole thing about him and not the topic. I think you've made your feelings about pillows very clear. But I also think that most people didn't agree with your presentation. That doesn't make us ridiculous. It just means we don't agree on this one topic.

That's all.