Teachers. The good the bad and the ugly.

[MonteChristo]

Hi guys.

I am -so far- an unschooled drummer. I have a musical background, but drums... about four months. I can play along with the radio and keep decent time on standard 4/4 or 6/8 type stuff. Classsic rock and country. I practice a bit on the pad doing just basic strokes with the metronome and I'm seeing some improvement. I know it's not a question if I should find an instructor, that's a given. I, however, have reservations.

Since you don't know what you don't know, how do I know if I've gotten set up with a good instructor?

At a begining level I would assume that any instructor could bring me along quite well. Is that correct or is there something I should be looking for?

Thnx

[millerdakiller]

This is gonna be like you know your a redneck if, except, you know you need a new drum teacher if:

He's not teaching you to read music.

He sucks at drums(duh)

He doesn't try and teach concepts of time, but instead just teaches 'by ear'

He doesn't help you learn what you want to learn, he just teaches you what is easy for him to teach.

He chargers more then 50$ an hour, depends on your area, but i still wouldn't be willing to pay more then fifty an hour as a beginner, shoot for 40 an hour.

If he charges you for the first lesson, 90% of the time you won't learn a thing in your first lesson, I know none of my students do. I don't expect them to, and I make sure they don't expect to. The first lesson should be about evaluation so that the teacher can decide where you need to go based on where you are at. I fhe charges for the first lesson, this shows he's in it for the money (which granted all teachers are, but this shows he's in it ONLY for the money, and not to help you have an enriched experience playing drums).

If your drumset is better then his. Now some people may ask what this has to do with your teacher. My ideology is that if he can't provide something adequate to learn on, he isn't worth the time. The obvious exception to this is if you have a kit that costs more then 1000$. every kit that i've ever taken lessons on has been at least in the 750-1000 range including cymbals, and that's the way i think it should be. I think you should be able to enjoy your lesson and part of that has to do with the quality of the instrument you are playing on. Obviously you cant bring your own drums every week, that would be like bringing your own piano, so you should find a teacher that has the adequate equipment to teach you.

If your teacher has not heard of Stick Control for the rudimentary snare drummer, find a new teacher. And if you have not heard of it, buy that book immediately.

Personally if my teacher didn't know who steve gadd is I wouldn't take lessons from them, but I doubt that will happen, and that only really effects me because i try to emulate gadd so much.



I guess some signs of a good teacher would be that he is friendly and easy to communicate with,

he is obviously very skilled and very knowledgable about the instrument

and that he encourages you to be creative and show him parts that you may have written.

I hope this helps, if you have any more specific questions feel free to pm me

[MonteChristo]

Thank you. This all helps quite a bit. I will go for my first lesson soon. I get the first one free because I bought the kit. So well see how I feel after half a dozen more or so.

Thnx again.

[Deltadrummer]

Good advice, except for this not charging for the first lesson thing. I have never had a teacher who did not charge for the first lesson, and have never had a student who did not learn something on the first day. If I didn't learn something on the first day, I wouldn't go back to see "if it will get any better," period.

Two silly stories:
I had a student last summer who bought a drum set at our shop that came with a month of lessons At the second lesson he still hadn't set the kit up, after the second lesson he set it up and put a hole in the snare drum head. He called at the last minute to say he would not make his forth lesson and I never saw him again. I would assume that now, that poor drum set is sitting in his basement, half beat to shreds. I remember a girl I taught several years back who quit after the first lesson because I was too nice to her and she wanted someone who would be harder on her. My technique is not to say, "you screwed that up a-hole, damn you" but to say "sounds good, can I hear this part again." So that's why I don't give a free lesson. The student should expect to pay to be professionally evaluated, anyway.

You'll know a teacher by the reputation that proceeds him or her but once you're there, if you're learning what you need/want to learn it's all good. If you are learning nothing, move on.

[Lynchie]

This is gonna be like you know your a redneck if, except, you know you need a new drum teacher if:

He's not teaching you to read music.

He sucks at drums(duh)

He doesn't try and teach concepts of time, but instead just teaches 'by ear'

He doesn't help you learn what you want to learn, he just teaches you what is easy for him to teach.

He chargers more then 50$ an hour, depends on your area, but i still wouldn't be willing to pay more then fifty an hour as a beginner, shoot for 40 an hour.

If he charges you for the first lesson, 90% of the time you won't learn a thing in your first lesson, I know none of my students do. I don't expect them to, and I make sure they don't expect to. The first lesson should be about evaluation so that the teacher can decide where you need to go based on where you are at. I fhe charges for the first lesson, this shows he's in it for the money (which granted all teachers are, but this shows he's in it ONLY for the money, and not to help you have an enriched experience playing drums).

If your drumset is better then his. Now some people may ask what this has to do with your teacher. My ideology is that if he can't provide something adequate to learn on, he isn't worth the time. The obvious exception to this is if you have a kit that costs more then 1000$. every kit that i've ever taken lessons on has been at least in the 750-1000 range including cymbals, and that's the way i think it should be. I think you should be able to enjoy your lesson and part of that has to do with the quality of the instrument you are playing on. Obviously you cant bring your own drums every week, that would be like bringing your own piano, so you should find a teacher that has the adequate equipment to teach you.

If your teacher has not heard of Stick Control for the rudimentary snare drummer, find a new teacher. And if you have not heard of it, buy that book immediately.

Personally if my teacher didn't know who steve gadd is I wouldn't take lessons from them, but I doubt that will happen, and that only really effects me because i try to emulate gadd so much.



I guess some signs of a good teacher would be that he is friendly and easy to communicate with,

he is obviously very skilled and very knowledgable about the instrument

and that he encourages you to be creative and show him parts that you may have written.

I hope this helps, if you have any more specific questions feel free to pm me

Good points! I just had my third and last drum lesson from an individual, who I learned on my third lesson, didn't know what a double stroke roll was! I saw this coming but I followed up our first lesson (meet and greet) and went back. Dumb me.

He charged me for the consultaion 1st meeting. I would not have minded at all if I got a sense that he was something special.

The drumset was unassembled and it took a while to pull it out of the corner to set it up.

The drumset was one of the worst sets I've ever seen. JUNK. I was hoping to smack a nice kit but...

The drum throne was missing a bolt to adjust the height so I sat about a foot off the floor.

The drum teacher kept looking at the clock.

I told my drum teacher I saw Elvin Jones at the Blues alley in Washington DC. I don't think he knew who he was. (But...this teacher is 22 and I'm 47).

And on and on...

Like I said before: A good drum instructer is priceless; A bad drum instructer is pricey.

Good luck. You'll know soon if your new teacher inspires you or not.

[jeffwj]

Good advice, except for this not charging for the first lesson thing. I have never had a teacher who did not charge for the first lesson, and have never had a student who did not learn something on the first day.

I've made my feelings known on this in other posts, but for those new to Drummerworld, I'll state them again. No offense Miller. I respect your opinions but here we must agree to disagree.

I feel that it is totally fair to charge for a first lesson. It takes a little lesson time to talk about goals and analyze the student's playing, but then we get right to the lesson. The student will leave the lesson with assignments on snare, drum set, and possibly mallets. That being said, I often give the student extra time on the first lesson (free of charge.) I may offer a free trial lesson from time to time at my discression, but it is nothing that should be expected of me. I should not be looked down upon if I choose not to donate my time.

Teacher's are offering a service. Try going to get your hair cut by someone new and ask for a "freebie." You wouldn't dare because that person is providing a service.

If I go to Drummer's Collective and take a first lesson with a teacher, I will be charged. If I use the assumption that a teacher is not worthwhile if he/she charges for the first lesson, then I guess no one would study there. See how ridiculous this sounds.

[fourstringdrums]

Some good points though a few I don't agree with.

First being the "Not charging for the first lesson" rule. There was some debate on this in another thread (I forget which). I agree with Ken that it's rare if a student doesn't learn anything on the first lesson. If they don't, they need to be wary about that teacher because while the first lesson is important in establishing the student/teacher relationship and getting to know each other and what the student wants to achieve and the teacher can offer. If they do learn something, they should be charged. I have a new student this afternoon actually and he will learn a few things. He'll learn how to properly hold the sticks, proper posture, how to strike the pad correctly and effectively, and he will learn singles, doubles, and paradiddles (though at the beginning stage I just refer to them as patterns). Now I work for a music store and they handling the payment policies, but if I gave private lessons, the student would still get charged on the first lesson. The student is paying for the teacher's time as well. It's like the policy we have at the store on no-show's. If I go down for my lesson today and wait and wait, and the student doesn't show up, they still get charged. They didn't learn anything that week, but they still get charged because they're paying for my time to be there, which if they don't show up, they just wasted.

The only other thing I wanted to comment on was the one about the teacher not having a better kit than the student. I just want to say that this doesn't always apply. If the teacher is at a music store, they don't choose what they teach on, so that is no reflection on the teacher. Also some teachers if they gave private lessons may have a student set that is just an el-cheapo. It's not their personal set, just a beater that they choose to give lessons on. I don't really see the harm in that. Also in a situation where if the student is just really fortunate to have good gear, it's very possible that they could have a better kit than the teacher. Not every teacher has the ability to buy ultra high end gear.

[jeffwj]

Good point about the set. I've taught in stores before that didn't have the best set, but the drums were well maintained and sounded good.

[fourstringdrums]

Good point about the set. I've taught in stores before that didn't have the best set, but the drums were well maintained and sounded good.

The set we have is a Ludwig Accent bottom of the line. Not the sturdiest set, and most of the plating has flaked off and it's rusting (way to go Ludwig!) and unfortunately due to one teacher who complained we have to put sound-offs on the drums. So it's not the ideal set, but it still allows the student to learn effectively.

[jeffwj]

I think we're getting away from the point a bit in answering the main question. In my opinion, he can tell if he is with a good teacher if they:

1. Introduce concepts of reading, technique, and coordination.

2. Introduce the students to various styles of music (by playing and listening)

3. The teacher should have experience. Like the old adage says, "Practice what you preach."

Those are strong fundamental qualities of a drum teacher. You must use your judgment for other things such as:

1. Is the person articulate? Can he/she communicate thoughts and ideas easily?

2. Is the teacher organized? Does he/she seem to follow a plan or are they just "winging it?"

3. Does the person really care about the instrument? There are people out there who are more attracted to the money than the art.

[fourstringdrums]

3. The teacher should have experience. Like the old adage says, "Practice what you preach."

1. Is the person articulate? Can he/she communicate thoughts and ideas easily?

2. Is the teacher organized? Does he/she seem to follow a plan or are they just "winging it?"

These 3 are good, though I think they can bend a bit depending on how long the teacher has been at it. I started teaching for the first time in November so of course I don't have much experience with it, and I'm still finding the best way to organize myself and get ideas across to students. I care about those things but it's of course going to take me a while to find my teaching groove so to speak. Even though I'm not perfect at those 3 things I still feel I can be a teacher. If my students are learning something in each lesson, enjoying themselves, and improving (though improvement is more of something on the student than the teacher), then I feel like I'm doing my job.

[Deltadrummer]

Good point about the set. I've taught in stores before that didn't have the best set, but the drums were well maintained and sounded good.>>>

. . or just the opposite. At the shop where I work, I teach out of a studio that has a beautiful DDrum Dominion drum set: die cast hoops, nine ply, all maple shells. It has a 24 x 20 bass drum that is really loud and hard for the students to play. It may be a great kit for the right person; but for a beginner, it does not work well.

These 3 are good, though I think they can bend a bit depending on how long the teacher has been at it. I started teaching for the first time in November so of course I don't have much experience with it, and I'm still finding the best way to organize myself and get ideas across to students. I care about those things but it's of course going to take me a while to find my teaching groove so to speak. Even though I'm not perfect at those 3 things I still feel I can be a teacher. If my students are learning something in each lesson, enjoying themselves, and improving (though improvement is more of something on the student than the teacher), then I feel like I'm doing my job.

One thing that I have learned about teaching is that there are no absolutes. In Modern Drummer they've been doing a series on teaching and this month it is about having a good curriculum. I just laughed because when you are out there teaching in the real world, it is very hard to get students to stick to a curriculum, and this may be the most important thing that you do for them.

Every person has his or her own needs, expectations, strengths and weaknesses. Some like a teacher that is hard nosed, some like a teacher that is easy going. Some are very competitive, some not competitive at all. Some need to prove things, some have nothing to prove, Some will leave when you are honest and tell them that they are not making the necessary progress because they are not practicing.

All you can be as a teacher is who you are. You do need to be flexible because people are different but you can never compromise your own integrity.

[jeffwj]

These 3 are good, though I think they can bend a bit depending on how long the teacher has been at it. I started teaching for the first time in November so of course I don't have much experience with it, and I'm still finding the best way to organize myself and get ideas across to students. I care about those things but it's of course going to take me a while to find my teaching groove so to speak. Even though I'm not perfect at those 3 things I still feel I can be a teacher. If my students are learning something in each lesson, enjoying themselves, and improving (though improvement is more of something on the student than the teacher), then I feel like I'm doing my job.

The point on experience was meant to mean playing experience. There are teachers out there that try to tell students how to play in situations that they have never played in themselves.

The last points were meant to be judgment calls for the student to make. Even though you have only been teaching a short time, I'm sure that your sincerity and love of the instrument is translated to the student.

[fourstringdrums]

The point on experience was meant to mean playing experience. There are teachers out there that try to tell students how to play in situations that they have never played in themselves.

Well it's hard for some teachers to be fully experienced. I know I'm not. I have only recently started playing with other people. Before that I hadn't played with anyone in about 10 years when I was in high school. I've never played in jazz or latin situations, but I feel fairly confident about my ability to teach a student the basics of those and other styles. I would definitely recommend that they seek out a more experienced teacher if they wish to learn more about say jazz, but I can definitely start them on it.

[dea]

Sorry, but this one heats me up a bit..

A service is a product.

With a haircut, one can *quantify* the job quality. How does one do that with a drum teacher.

I would never pay for the first lesson. I don't care how good they thought they were, or if they truly are a good drummer since a good drummer doesn't imply a good teacher. A free consultation ( 1/2 hour at a minimum ) is a requirement. If they cannot prove to me, up front, they can teach me what I need to know, I'm out and still holding my precious cash.

I have seen several Puget Sound area drummers that provide a free consultation. These are the folks you want to hook up with. They know what they are doing, or they would not be confident enough to provide you with a free consult.

This is simply being a good consumer.

[Phil Maturano]

Im sorry guys but...I simply cannot believe some of the things I am reading here.

Is it that much of a mystery?

I urge anyone who is looking for a teacher to read this thread.

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35986

GO UP TO ANY MASTER TEACHER AND ASK FOR THE FIRST LESSON FOR FREE!
You will not even get through the door of the studio.

Ask Changuito for the first lesson free
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuoAJzntEx8&feature=related

It just aint gonna happen.

Go to a restaurant and ask for the 1rst meal free. Haha

A free evaluation by someone with no gigging teaching or life experience is a total waste of time.

Taking a lesson about a style (especially Latin music of ANY Genre) with someone who has never done a gig in that style is insulting and abusive. GIVING a lesson to someone in a style or genre you are not familiar with is unconscionable. GIVING a lesson to someone on subject matter that you yourself have not mastered or at least have years and years of experience with is unconscionable.

Being a good consumer means getting the most out of your money. Paying anyone who has absolutely no experience teaching and no gig experience to back it up...is being a sucker. Even if you pay them 5 cents for 10 hours. You will most likely be getting totally wrong misleading false twisted information and you will pay for that in hours of your life that you will never get back, medical bills, getting fired from gigs and then additional lessons to correct everything you have been doing wrong. Think about it guys. Its not about saving 10, 20, or 30 bucks. Its about information that will change your life! And you will carry this information for the rest of your life.

Dont make the mistakes I and many colleagues made when taking lessons.

Even if you are just beginning!!!!! Get a great teacher, Take a few weeks of lessons, work on it for a while then go back later. If you decide you want to be serious with drumming.

To assume you are saving money because someone is cheap is ridiculous. To buy a 500 or 800 or 3000 kit and then take some lessons that will poison your body and make you sound terrible makes no sense whatsoever. On a larger scale ....The drumkit itself is inconsequential. YOU are the instrument. If the kit is junk and you are great, the kit will be great. If you basically cannot play, no amount of $10,000 shiny DW's are going to get you playing well. If you dont believe me, look to Cuba. I have never seen a great performance by a drumkit. I have seen Drummers give great performances. I know african masters who own a total of 2 t-shirts. Do you judge them by what kit they have so you can be babied and sit on a comfortable drum throne?

There are MANY snake oil salesmen out there who will want teach you. Beware. Look to the drum community for help in eliminating this problem. Write letters, do your research. There should be no mystery to this.

So much to learn, so little time.

With Love
PM

[millerdakiller]

the only reason i put the bit about charging for the first lesson in there is because that is something that i personally do, and something that all of my teachers have done. I think this is just a sign of good faith and dedication on the teachers part and a provide at as a courtesey. I also make the first lesson only a half hour, even if lessons after that are scheduled to be an hour, because i really think the first lesson should be entirely for evaluation. The only thing i teach in first lessons are the pad exercises I want my student to be practicing. Usually for me the first lesson will consist of 15-20 minutes of the student showing me what they can play (unless they can't play anything, in which case i start by teaching them how to hold the sticks). Usually I will say can you play this... if they say yes, then they play it and I gauge how well they play it, if they say I don't know what that means, then I will play it and if they then know what it is they will play it and i will gauge what it is. If they have no idea what it is and how to play it, then that gives me a pretty good indication of how advanced they are, what they know and what they need to learn. the next five minutes i spend explaining the pad practice exercise that i give to all my students (i have a worksheet that I make copies of to save some time during lessons, rather then writing it all out). Then the final five minutes is thier time, they tell me what thier goals are, as far as how serious they are about drums, wether they aim to go to school for drums, wether they just want to start a band, what they want to learn, and how hard they want to study. That way in the following lessons i can adjust the curiculum accordingly. That is just something that i do as a courtesy to my students though, and no its not a tell tale sign that you need a new teacher, but i think a teacher who doesn't charge for the first lesson is showing that he is serious about helping you learn, not just making money. That's just my opinion though.

[Phil Maturano]

I am sorry Miller, but that can be construed as "a hook" as much as it can be construed as a "courtesy". Your paradigm there is based on the assumption that one needs "good faith" in order to trust that you are getting a good teacher.
I would rather skip faith and look at track record and experience. Use my ears and go to someone's gig before i think that saving a couple of bucks is going to make the difference in my choice of someone who will influence "my life" and time spent on this planet.
In fact no one I know anywhere on this earth that is an experienced teacher with years of playing under their belt needs this. In fact great teachers, usually you will have to wait for them! And THEY will probably choose YOU. And if you dont have your act together, you will be booted! Why??

As a teacher, each student is a reflection of you, and when they go out there and play... it is you who are also playing. If they are bad ...you are bad. If they are great you are also great. Thats what will make your name as a teacher. Not any amount of discounts ala Walmart daily specials.

I hope you consider this in your future as a teacher.

PM

[millerdakiller]

I am sorry Miller, but that can be construed as "a hook" as much as it can be construed as a "courtesy". Your paradigm there is based on the assumption that one needs "good faith" in order to trust that you are getting a good teacher.
I would rather skip faith and look at track record and experience. Use my ears and go to someone's gig before i think that saving a couple of bucks is going to make the difference in my choice of someone who will influence "my life" and time spent on this planet.
In fact no one I know anywhere on this earth that is an experienced teacher with years of playing under their belt needs this. In fact great teachers, usually you will have to wait for them! And THEY will probably choose YOU. And if you dont have your act together, you will be booted! Why??

As a teacher, each student is a reflection of you, and when they go out there and play... it is you who are also playing. If they are bad ...you are bad. If they are great you are also great. Thats what will make your name as a teacher. Not any amount of discounts ala Walmart daily specials.

I hope you consider this in your future as a teacher.

PM

i don't discriminate against players of any skill level when i accept students, and i also don't expect to build a reputation teaching, especially teaching drums. My instrument is guitar. All this said, I can see where you're coming from, but i respectfully disagree.

[Phil Maturano]

i don't discriminate against players of any skill level when i accept students, and i also don't expect to build a reputation teaching, especially teaching drums. My instrument is guitar. All this said, I can see where you're coming from, but i respectfully disagree.

In what section did I say I discriminate anyone based on playing level or experience when it comes to TAKING lessons.

" i also don't expect to build a reputation teaching, especially teaching drums"

That is obvious :-)

"My instrument is guitar"

I dont understand why you are posting in this thread.

PM

[fourstringdrums]

i also don't expect to build a reputation teaching, especially teaching drums. My instrument is guitar.

Every teacher should care about their reputation and to me it sounds like maybe you don't.

I also am a bit unnerved that drums aren't even your main instrument yet you're trying to lay down all these ground rules that we should follow. Not that good musicians of one particular instrument can't play another, but I tend to be wary of teachers teaching an instrument they don't play regularly.

[toddy]

A great teacher.

Experience, Metrenome, Reading, Technique.

That's what i would be watching and thinking about when first having a lesson with them.

I'd also go along with a number of questions to see if they really know their stuff :)

[Deltadrummer]

In what section did I say I discriminate anyone based on playing level or experience when it comes to TAKING lessons.

" i also don't expect to build a reputation teaching, especially teaching drums"

That is obvious :-)

"My instrument is guitar"

I dont understand why you are posting in this thread.

PM

Well, Phil, as you know, this is the first thing to look out for when looking for a teacher, right.

[millerdakiller]

Every teacher should care about their reputation and to me it sounds like maybe you don't.

I also am a bit unnerved that drums aren't even your main instrument yet you're trying to lay down all these ground rules that we should follow. Not that good musicians of one particular instrument can't play another, but I tend to be wary of teachers teaching an instrument they don't play regularly.

where did I say that i don't care about my reputation ? Just because I'm not looking to make my name based on teaching drums doesn't mean that i don't care, and don't have a good reputation among my students. And when did I claim these were rules? Everything i typed is pure opinion. And where did I say I don't play drums regularly? You make many assumptions without any backing. I play drums usually 3-5 times a week and pad practice everday, just because it is not my main instrument does not mean that I don't practice it, or am not skilled at it. Please think before you post my friend.

[Phil Maturano]

Well, Phil, as you know, this is the first thing to look out for when looking for a teacher, right.

Its absolutely astonishing how bold some people can be.
This cat just needed to be called out, He should stop misleading people PERIOD.

It is because of things like this that people get turned off to lessons. Please Miller, I hate to be the one saying this but, stick to "Taking" lessons and leave the "Giving" to the pros that dedicate their entire lives to the instrument.
You are 19 yo. Look into learning the craft and actually gigging on drums for a loooong time before you even consider trying to shape others into it.
pm

[jeffwj]

And when did I claim these were rules? Everything i typed is pure opinion.

Since those opinions were given to someone just starting out on drums, it made it seem like those of us who charge for the first lesson are doing something wrong.

When I think about it, I remember always paying for my first lesson, no matter if it was at a local music store or with a pro drummer.

[jeffwj]

Sorry, but this one heats me up a bit..

A service is a product.

With a haircut, one can *quantify* the job quality. How does one do that with a drum teacher.

I would never pay for the first lesson. I don't care how good they thought they were, or if they truly are a good drummer since a good drummer doesn't imply a good teacher.

This heats YOU up a bit? You are the one saying that teachers should be giving away their time because we may or may not be worth it. I'm sorry, but that is an insult to me and my profession. Yes, there may be some teachers out there that have nothing to offer but I've paid thousands of dollars and have driven more than my share of miles and hours to study with the people that I've studied with. I paid my money to study with them and did not complain. Why should I feel guilty about charging for a lesson?

By the way, I'm going to see a new accountant this week. Maybe I should ask him to do my taxes for free this time so I can see if he's worth it. I'll see what he says to that. Then on the way home, I'll get a massage. I'll go to someone new, that way it'll be free.

Jeff

[Deltadrummer]

Since those opinions were given to someone just starting out on drums, it made it seem like those of us who charge for the first lesson are doing something wrong.

When I think about it, I remember always paying for my first lesson, no matter if it was at a local music store or with a pro drummer.

You know, Jeff, I've been thinking about this today and have come to conclusion that if I were going to start giving out free lessons, I would pick my devoted students who have been with me for a long time before someone who called up and wanted to check things out.

[Phil Maturano]

This heats YOU up a bit? You are the one saying that teachers should be giving away their time because we may or may not be worth it. I'm sorry, but that is an insult to me and my profession. Yes, there may be some teachers out there that have nothing to offer but I've paid thousands of dollars and have driven more than my share of miles and hours to study with the people that I've studied with. I paid my money to study with them and did not complain. Why should I feel guilty about charging for a lesson?

By the way, I'm going to see a new accountant this week. Maybe I should ask him to do my taxes for free this time so I can see if he's worth it. I'll see what he says to that.

Jeff

Diggin it Jeff. I have spent a fortune on books, lessons, everything i could to get to this point in my life. Any money i made went right back into my drums and whatever was needed to support my improvement. Guess what? I still pay for lessons!

It feels like this prevalent attitude of these younger cats here is a sign that we have allot of healing to do because of people that have stolen their money. It seems that there is a huge gap of information with the younger drummers and we need to reach out to them.

I look forward to meeting you someday.
PM

[jeffwj]

You know, Jeff, I've been thinking about this today and have come to conclusion that if I were going to start giving out free lessons, I would pick my devoted students who have been with me for a long time before someone who called up and wanted to check things out.

Ken,

I think the point is - people like Dea are insinuating that we wouldn't be worth his time if we didn't give him a free lesson. I just don't see how that's fair.

As a student, I wouldn't expect someone to give me a free lesson. If they did, I would be appreciative. I would probably tip them anyway out of respect.

As a teacher, I often give the student more time on the first lesson. Sometimes I may give it for free, depending upon the situation. But, as I mentioned before, that should be something I do out of courtesy - not something that should be expected.

Jeff

[jeffwj]

Guess what? I still pay for lessons!
PM

I still pay for lessons too. I drive 2-1/2 hours to study with Steve Fidyk. It is well worth the drive and the money. He has really helped me with my big band drumming and chart reading.

[MonteChristo]

Amazing responses. Thank you all.

I'm not concerned -from my point of view- in the cost of the first lesson.

Phil Maturano makes some points that really resonate with me. I have a pretty deep background in martial arts.The parallels I see in learning each (drumming and MA) are surprising. In reality that is why I began to ponder this. In MA they say, better to spend ten years looking for the right teacher than to spend ten years with the wrong teacher.

On one hand I feel that as a beginner almost any teacher can help me grow as a drummer. On the other, I want to find someone that can guide me through my formative hours/days/weeks/months/years with a solid game plan or ability for helping me achieve my ultimate goal. To be a quality musician. I'm 44 with a full time family and a full time corporate life, I don't want to be a rock star or a studio musician. I just want to be the best player I can be. I hope that the teacher I end up with can grasp this and assist me in pursuing this quest.

Thanx again for all the opinions and all the advice.

[jeffwj]

It feels like this prevalent attitude of these younger cats here is a sign that we have allot of healing to do because of people that have stolen their money. It seems that there is a huge gap of information with the younger drummers and we need to reach out to them.

I look forward to meeting you someday.
PM

I know people have had their money taken. Although some people may bring it on themselves. You can't believe the number of calls that I've received where people ask me what I charge. I tell them the price (which is more than fair for the area.) They then say, "thank you" and try to end the call. I ask them if they have any other questions or want more information on lessons and they say, "no."

It is amazing how people choose the lowest bidder for lessons. Granted, most of these are probably beginners, but beginners are the ones who really need quality instruction.

I hope to meet you too, Phil.

Jeff

[Phil Maturano]

I know people have had their money taken. Although some people may bring it on themselves. You can't believe the number of calls that I've received where people ask me what I charge. I tell them the price (which is more than fair for the area.) They then say, "thank you" and try to end the call. I ask them if they have any other questions or want more information on lessons and they say, "no."

It is amazing how people choose the lowest bidder for lessons. Granted, most of these are probably beginners, but beginners are the ones who really need quality instruction.

I hope to meet you too, Phil.

Jeff

It is the beginning drummer who is in the most danger of being mislead. Those who prey upon this innocence and lack of information and right associations are immoral. The beginning drummer needs the best teacher they can find.

To keep in line with the wonderful (analogous now to the participants of this thread) title of this thread. Choosing the lowest bidder for lessons is like being in the days of the wild west and trying to buy a six shooter with fools gold. Go ahead and buy that pistol, only don't expect it to work on your first shoot out. Most merchants selling things made it a point to be able to identify gold. They know its fools gold and will treat you the way you have treated them in the end. With contempt. They will watch you crash and burn and just shrug their shoulders when you are in the most dire circumstances.

On the other hand, your reputation will precede you if you studied with the right cats. In fact your professional future, most of the time depends on the people that have taken part in shaping you. If you are lucky enough to study with great teachers your future is almost secured.
pm

[Phil Maturano]

Amazing responses. Thank you all.

I'm not concerned -from my point of view- in the cost of the first lesson.

Phil Maturano makes some points that really resonate with me. I have a pretty deep background in martial arts.The parallels I see in learning each (drumming and MA) are surprising. In reality that is why I began to ponder this. In MA they say, better to spend ten years looking for the right teacher than to spend ten years with the wrong teacher.

On one hand I feel that as a beginner almost any teacher can help me grow as a drummer. On the other, I want to find someone that can guide me through my formative hours/days/weeks/months/years with a solid game plan or ability for helping me achieve my ultimate goal. To be a quality musician. I'm 44 with a full time family and a full time corporate life, I don't want to be a rock star or a studio musician. I just want to be the best player I can be. I hope that the teacher I end up with can grasp this and assist me in pursuing this quest.

Thanx again for all the opinions and all the advice.

Have you seen this thread?

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36119

Martial arts are very very similar in concepts and philosophy. A person in your position is a perfect example of needing a great teacher.

1) Time
2) Intelligence
3) Insight
4) Life experience

You might learn a few things from "any teacher"
But compared to the right teacher it will seem like nothing. As you already know.
If you tell us your location we can all help in finding the right person for you.

PM

[Deltadrummer]

I know people have had their money taken. Although some people may bring it on themselves. You can't believe the number of calls that I've received where people ask me what I charge. I tell them the price (which is more than fair for the area.) They then say, "thank you" and try to end the call. I ask them if they have any other questions or want more information on lessons and they say, "no."

It is amazing how people choose the lowest bidder for lessons. Granted, most of these are probably beginners, but beginners are the ones who really need quality instruction.

I hope to meet you too, Phil.

Jeff

Yes, and I always think, Good riddance. If they don't want to pay me an equitable wage let them get some college student who will do it for beer cash. You get what you pay for, and if you don't value quality, the teacher will not get the deserved respect anyway.

This is a poor mentality that affects everything we do. It is interesting that people will buy a guitar for 20 dollars less on the internet than getting it at the store where I work. Then they will come in for a lesson with it. In the store, it comes with a full set up and a set up after one year, which is worth about 100 bucks right there. When the shop closes down, it was because folks wanted to save money rather than support a full service music store in their community.

I totally agree that it is the beginner who needs the most quality teacher. One of my selling points, for those who will listen, is that I will grant a strong foundation that the student will have for advancement, rather than having to relearn things somewhere down the road.

There is a great value to the study of music that goes far beyond being a rock star. That mentality has destroyed American music. There was this boy written about in a British newspaper who had a rare hearing deficiency related to autism that made him sensitive to noise. This situation was debilitating. He took up the drums and the problem subsided, greatly improving his quality of life.

[MonteChristo]

Have you seen this thread?

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36119

Martial arts are very very similar in concepts and philosophy. A person in your position is a perfect example of needing a great teacher.

1) Time
2) Intelligence
3) Insight
4) Life experience

You might learn a few things from "any teacher"
But compared to the right teacher it will seem like nothing. As you already know.
If you tell us your location we can all help in finding the right person for you.

PM


I have not seen this thread. I'll be off to read it now.

I am in Fresno, CA 93704

[millerdakiller]

Since those opinions were given to someone just starting out on drums, it made it seem like those of us who charge for the first lesson are doing something wrong.

When I think about it, I remember always paying for my first lesson, no matter if it was at a local music store or with a pro drummer.

I am just stating my opinion, and i would apreciate it if certain people on this forum would stop questioning my credentials based on the fact that i do not charge for my first lesson.

[jeffwj]

This is gonna be like you know your a redneck if, except, you know you need a new drum teacher if:

If he charges you for the first lesson, 90% of the time you won't learn a thing in your first lesson, I know none of my students do. I don't expect them to, and I make sure they don't expect to. The first lesson should be about evaluation so that the teacher can decide where you need to go based on where you are at. I fhe charges for the first lesson, this shows he's in it for the money (which granted all teachers are, but this shows he's in it ONLY for the money, and not to help you have an enriched experience playing drums).


Miller,

You say that you would appreciate it if people on this forum would stop questioning your credentials based on the fact that you do not charge for your first lesson.

From your quote above, everyone can clearly see you state that people need a new drum teacher if they paid for their first lesson. Isn't that disregarding the credentials of a teacher who charges for the first lesson? I think you're trying to turn this around.

[Deltadrummer]

90% of the time, if you don't learn anything on your first lesson, you won't learn anything on your second lesson either.:)

I teach a classic two beat pattern on the first lesson and then jokingly return to it throughout the forth coming weeks slyly stating that they have been learning from the first day and everything they learn can be used. There is no throw away material. How may times does Ian Paice use that pattern? I use it all the time myself.

It's also a wonderful reminder that all we need to do is lay back and create a nice, warm groove. Anything we add to that should be done in taste to express what is happening musically.

[MattRitter]

Hey, guys

I'm sure that great teachers operate with a wide variety of policies. My advice would be to simply find out for certain what the norms are in your area, and then make your decision about your own policies. I have lived my whole life on the east coast. I've taken lessons on and off for about 19 years, with countless different teachers. I've never once been offered a free first lesson. So, charging for the first lesson is clearly the standard practice over here.

For the teachers on this thread who DON'T charge for the first lesson, you may want to investigate to find out what is standard where you live. If charging for the first lesson is standard, you may actually be LOSING clients by operating differently. People are sometimes suspicious when a service or product is given away for free. Plus, you may be investing time in "students" who only want a free meeting but have no intention of taking regular lessons. Ya never know.

On the other hand, if a free first lesson is standard in your area, you don't want to turn people off by being the only teacher going against the grain. It's a delicate balance. That's why I say it's important to do some detective work and find out about the norms in your area when you're setting up your own teaching practice.

Best of luck!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[Deltadrummer]

It is a standard practice for those who are just starting out and building a client base. The thought is are you better off spending an hour alone or giving that hour to a perspective student. I've never done it for the reasons that Jeff has stated, but there are teachers in my area who do, and they tend to be younger teachers living at home who are teaching for extra cash. In the last two years I've canceled on my students once. I was an hour late getting back from an audition. That's what you get when you hire a professional.

One of the policies I have in my private practice is to grant a free lesson to a student who refers a student to me. So the free lesson goes to someone who has been paying me rather than some guy off the street.

[Eric]

Phil, I am totally with you, thanks for posting. To rule out a teacher because he doesn't give a free lesson is to rule out the best teachers working today. If a student is considering studying with me, there are numerous ways he/she can feel confident they will have a valuable first lesson. One can check out my discography, sound clips, hear me live. I can tell a student what they will learn on our first phone call, and answer any question they have to a degree where they will know I'm a pro teacher. Free first lessons are not needed. My time is valuable.

[cnw60]

this discussion has become a little too focused on the issue of whether or not you should pay for the first lesson. Personally - I would not rule someone out as a potential teacher whether they do or don't charge for the first lesson, it's one of those things that's irrelevant once the second lesson starts. And when you reach the point that you want to study with a true 'master' teacher - the question becomes moot.

the question is qualifications - what makes a good teacher?

Communication skills
Enthusiasm/Devotion
Drumming Skills
Training
Experience
Patience
Creativity...

All of those things are important, but I also believe that not all of them are truly critical. Many great drummers are not good teachers and good teachers are usually known by the quality of their students more so than by their own drumming cred. Sometimes - the person who has worked hard to achieve moderate skills will be a better teacher than a person whose advanced skills came more easily to them.

The other thing is trying to find a teacher who matches up well with you - are they strong in the areas you want or need to learn? It doesn't make much sense to study jazz or Latin with someone who's mostly a rocker, or vice versa. Of course - most great teachers have the background and experience to teach more than just one or two styles. But your time (and his or hers) is valuable - so it makes sense to learn from their strengths.

Teaching is an art unto itself - truly great teachers will teach you the fundamentals, expose you to the available curriculum, and then challenge you to explore the possibilities. They will give you the tools to understand yourself, your instrument and how to solve problems on your own.

From what I've read - it sounds like Jeff, Ken and Phil know all of this and I kind of wish that I lived close enough to one of you guys to take some lessons from you - I need to find a good teacher myself.

[Lynchie]

I've noted, on some previous threads, some issues I had with a drum teacher and I would have to say, as a paying customer, the biggest peave I had was time management. I want my drum teacher to be ready to go with the equipment, the lesson plan or whatever. My lessons were 30 minutes long. Each minute was precious to me. Taking time to fumble with setting up equipment made me think my teacher needed some organization. I really don't care if I have to pay for the first lesson or not as long as it's productive. Of course it's a huge benefit if the teacher is enthusiastic and most importantly, very skilled. Teaching is an art. Math can be fun with the right teacher and I hated math. Since I love the drums, I put up with a poor teacher just to be around someone who wanted to talk and do drumming. If I had a good drum teacher.....it would be heaven!

[fourstringdrums]

I've noted, on some previous threads, some issues I had with a drum teacher and I would have to say, as a paying customer, the biggest peave I had was time management. I want my drum teacher to be ready to go with the equipment, the lesson plan or whatever. My lessons were 30 minutes long. Each minute was precious to me. Taking time to fumble with setting up equipment made me think my teacher needed some organization. I really don't care if I have to pay for the first lesson or not as long as it's productive. Of course it's a huge benefit if the teacher is enthusiastic and most importantly, very skilled. Teaching is an art. Math can be fun with the right teacher and I hated math. Since I love the drums, I put up with a poor teacher just to be around someone who wanted to talk and do drumming. If I had a good drum teacher.....it would be heaven!

I always adjust the drums for the particular student (usually just hi-hat or throne height that I know they'll need) before they come in. I can't imagine a teacher where the drums are in a complete disarray before each lesson.

[jeffwj]

I would have to say, as a paying customer, the biggest peave I had was time management. I want my drum teacher to be ready to go with the equipment, the lesson plan or whatever. ...Each minute was precious to me.

Exactly!!! Before a new student comes in, I have to prepare by getting material together so I can evaluate their playing. Sometimes intermediate/advanced students that tell me in advance that they are interested in certain styles or concepts. In that case, I have to find that material (books/audio examples) and have it on hand as well. I start work before the student walks in the door. That's another reason that it is more than fair to charge for the lesson.

Jeff

[Deltadrummer]

Exactly!!! Before a new student comes in, I have to prepare by getting material together so I can evaluate their playing. Sometimes intermediate/advanced students that tell me in advance that they are interested in certain styles or concepts. In that case, I have to find that material (books/audio examples) and have it on hand as well. I start work before the student walks in the door. That's another reason that it is more than fair to charge for the lesson.

Jeff

Well said Jeff. And this type of preparation does not end after the first lesson. I am constantly rethinking concepts and ideas for my students, as well as ways to approach the material. I was an easy student. Give me something and I came back in a week later and could play it. I'm methodical but not to a fault. For some students, the material does not come as easily; they need someone who can break it down or simplify it for them and constantly develop new ways to make that material accessible. I just don't see how somebody just out of HS would be successful in that sense.

[millerdakiller]

Miller,

You say that you would appreciate it if people on this forum would stop questioning your credentials based on the fact that you do not charge for your first lesson.

From your quote above, everyone can clearly see you state that people need a new drum teacher if they paid for their first lesson. Isn't that disregarding the credentials of a teacher who charges for the first lesson? I think you're trying to turn this around.

that is my opinion and i have every right to it. I am not criticizing anyone who does not agree with this policy, and if you or anyone else take offense to it, i apologize.

I'm going to refrain from commenting in this thread any longer because i am not about to get into a trivial argument over the internet, i have better things to do with my time.

[jeffwj]

that is my opinion and i have every right to it. I am not criticizing anyone who does not agree with this policy, and if you or anyone else take offense to it, i apologize.

I'm going to refrain from commenting in this thread any longer because i am not about to get into a trivial argument over the internet, i have better things to do with my time.

You do not have to apologize to me. How many people on here are from my area? Not many. I was not commenting because you were trying to tell students not to study with me. I was commenting because you told them not to study with someone who charged for a first lesson. If someone new to the drums followed your advice, they most likely would be ruling out many talented teachers that have so much to offer.

Many of you have seen my posts in the past. I try to help and not stir things up. But when someone misleads (albeit not intentionally) young inexperienced drummers, I feel that I should set the record straight. A student's choice of teacher should not be "trivial."

[dea]

I totally agree. The decision is not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Hence - all the reason not to pay until one feels that teacher in question will meet their needs. This is part of the investigative process which every good consumer deserves.

The burden should be on the teacher to earn a student's business, not the other way around.

[jeffwj]

I totally agree. The decision is not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Hence - all the reason not to pay until one feels that teacher in question will meet their needs. This is part of the investigative process which every good consumer deserves.

The burden should be on the teacher to earn a student's business, not the other way around.

Let me see if I get this right. Let's say you're looking for a teacher. You would call every teacher in the phone book and go with the person who offers the first lesson free, even if he/she is less qualified than the others?

More importantly, this is the method that you would suggest to a young person who never played drums before and is looking for a teacher? We're supposed to be role models for the younger people on this site. Could you really tell them to forget about a teacher's qualifications if he/she doesn't offer a free lesson?

[fourstringdrums]

I still don't get those who don't understand this concept. You go in for a first lesson and you learn SOMETHING. It still appalls me that Miller said "90% of the time you won't learn a thing in your first lesson, I know none of my students do". If you are a teacher and you can actually sit here and say that your students never learn ANYTHING on the first lesson, not ONE THING, then you need give up teaching. Even if the only thing the student takes away from the first lesson is how to hold the sticks properly, they still learned SOMETHING and should be charged for the knowledge and the teacher taking the time to give it to them.

My store does something which I'm not sure is common, they charge for a whole month in advance. Around here all the stores do it, and so do private teachers. I don't see the bad in it because you're going to spend all that money ANYWAY if you continue lessons. If you drop out, you'll get all the money back. But they will allow you to just pay for the first lesson just in case it doesn't work out so it makes it less consuming for all involved.

[Deltadrummer]

I totally agree. The decision is not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. Hence - all the reason not to pay until one feels that teacher in question will meet their needs. This is part of the investigative process which every good consumer deserves.

The burden should be on the teacher to earn a student's business, not the other way around.

I think this goes round and round and nowhere.

All professionals have as a marketing tool the option of offering free services. Dentists will offer free X-rays to get perspective clients in, to build a clinical practice. But once the practice is established, it is rare that a dentist will offer free services.

I have been teaching for 10 years and have two advanced degrees. If that does not tell you that I am worthy of the fee for my time, then you are not worth my time, certainly not for free and probably not even if you pay for it.


My store does something which I'm not sure is common, they charge for a whole month in advance. Around here all the stores do it, and so do private teachers. I don't see the bad in it because you're going to spend all that money ANYWAY if you continue lessons. If you drop out, you'll get all the money back. But they will allow you to just pay for the first lesson just in case it doesn't work out so it makes it less consuming for all involved.

Yes, I would love to do that if I could. the first time I went to see one of my teachers who is very well known, the student previous to him had stood him up. I thought if he gets stood up, what are my prospects. No shows are a problem in this business. If you get payment up front, they are less of a problem. :) People always say to me, "If you miss a Dentist appointment, you get a bill in the mail."

[fourstringdrums]

No shows are a problem in this business. If you get payment up front, they are less of a problem. :) People always say to me, "If you miss a Dentist appointment, you get a bill in the mail."

Well I believe our policy is that if given enough advance notice, you're not charged for the lesson. So if you've paid in advance, you'll get one lesson free the following month. Of course they're not going to penalize you for being sick or having a good reason. If you just don't show up or call 10 minutes before the lesson after the teacher has already gone all the way down there, unless it's a good excuse (flat tire, house on fire etc.. ) you're charged. We're fairly flexible though.

[jeffwj]

Yes, I would love to do that if I could. the first time I went to see one of my teachers who is very well known, the student previous to him had stood him up. I thought if he gets stood up, what are my prospects. No shows are a problem in this business. If you get payment up front, they are less of a problem. :) People always say to me, "If you miss a Dentist appointment, you get a bill in the mail."

I started out by teaching at a store back in Pennsylvania. They did not have a cancellation policy and did not charge by the month. I remember sitting around waiting for students who were no-shows and leaving some nights with a cash/hr. ratio of less than minimum wage. The students knew that if something came up (movie, friends, etc...) they could skip a lesson and not be charged.

Now that I have my own studio, I charge by the lesson for the first month so the students don't feel pressured to commit. If they decide to continue with lessons, payment is due the first lesson of each month. I have a cancellation policy that is fair and allows rescheduling, but no-shows are still paid for by the student. The students usually like writing only one check instead of four. And no one seems to mind the no-show policy. They know my time is valuable.

[NUTHA JASON]

I know people have had their money taken. Although some people may bring it on themselves. You can't believe the number of calls that I've received where people ask me what I charge. I tell them the price (which is more than fair for the area.) They then say, "thank you" and try to end the call. I ask them if they have any other questions or want more information on lessons and they say, "no."

It is amazing how people choose the lowest bidder for lessons. Granted, most of these are probably beginners, but beginners are the ones who really need quality instruction.

I hope to meet you too, Phil.

Jeff


pay with peanuts and you get monkeys.

drum teachers who have been around for a while and are very effective develop a reputation. smoke because there's fire kind of thing. if a guy seems expensive but also in demand and there are people talking about him then he may indeed be the one. this works both ways though. if you are a teacher wanting to break into the market and you know you are good but just starting then start slightly low and rather build up a larger pupil base until word and results get around. (plus your experience will shoot up and you may find you weren't as good as you though but now are).

j

[NUTHA JASON]

as to charging for a first lesson.

assessment is one of the largest and hardest skills in teaching. just because a pupil walks away from a test without any new learning doesn't mean that service hasn't been provided. a school teacher gets paid to mark tests, write reports etc. so too should a drum teacher. i assess for 90% of my first lesson (my first 3 lessons if needed) and i assess for at least 25% of any given lesson thereafter. assessment is part of teaching and should be paid for.

j

[jeffwj]

as to charging for a first lesson.

assessment is one of the largest and hardest skills in teaching. just because a pupil walks away from a test without any new learning doesn't mean that service hasn't been provided. a school teacher gets paid to mark tests, write reports etc. so too should a drum teacher. i assess for 90% of my first lesson (my first 3 lessons if needed) and i assess for at least 25% of any given lesson thereafter. assessment is part of teaching and should be paid for.

j

Well put. Auto mechanics will often charge to diagnose a car problem. Just because they didn't turn a wrench yet doesn't mean that they didn't work. In fact, the process of diagnosing a problem requires a great deal of thought and problem solving abilities.

[Deltadrummer]

as to charging for a first lesson.

assessment is one of the largest and hardest skills in teaching. just because a pupil walks away from a test without any new learning doesn't mean that service hasn't been provided. a school teacher gets paid to mark tests, write reports etc. so too should a drum teacher. i assess for 90% of my first lesson (my first 3 lessons if needed) and i assess for at least 25% of any given lesson thereafter. assessment is part of teaching and should be paid for.

j

That's a good point. It can be a very difficult process because if you are honest with people about their abilities, they may not take lightly to that. I've also run into problems with assessment where people will yes you to death, so now I ask questions like "what is" or "do this"rather than "have you done this." Sometimes you have a student who is very bright but you just can't tell the student to do the remedial work to get to point 'b.' so lessons come to revolve around me bailing the student out for his audition, concert or contest solo at the last minute.

I think when you work with kids, you need to get them to see that it is the daily ritual of practice that creates fine drumming, and you just can't cram at the end like for a biology exam. But their attention is so focused in different directions, it is near impossible.

[NUTHA JASON]

absolutely delta.

also it is very hard to put what you assess into useful terms. gone are the days of getting an A on a test. this is really meaningless (it might mean for example that you were just lucky that you studied the right subtopic for the exam rather than covering all the material as you were supposed to). in drum teaching no assessment is worth anything unless it leads to a course of action, unless it feeds back into instruction and practice. its useless to say 'you're pretty good at that funk beat' but better to say 'good but to get better we need to work on differntiating the ghosts from the accents, relaxing the shoulders and laying back slightly on the 2 and 4' (even if this is not said but thought or written down)

having that skill is worth money, having that analysis of your playing is worth paying for.

[Phil Maturano]

Maybe we can start an official Drummerworld list of teachers across the world. If we find a group of experienced players / teachers to organize this and have all of the forum members take part in recommending teachers to be on this list, the whole thing can be done with efficiency.

We would have to come up with an outline and criteria for who is accepted on the list and then vote on the studio or person before they get the official Drummerworld stamp of approval. Students could then reference this list no matter what part of the world they are in. Even if you are on vacation in Alaska and want to take a lesson on the Alaskan dance drum you just get on Drummerworld and see who we have there.
We can help to stop the rip off artists. We can have prices, policies, specialties of each instructor, books they have written, books and methods they use in their lessons etc etc. Since this is a business that has no regulation, we have to do it ourselves. To keep the honor of teaching intact (yes it is an honor to teach, and one that you earn) and insure that our art form expands in the most positive ways. Any thoughts?
regards
PM

[NUTHA JASON]

in some ways its a good idea but i advocate teaching other people to everybody as i know it is true that the best way to learn something is to teach it. even a beginner might pass on simple ideas and so share AND consolidate their own learning (but maybe not at a price). on top of which none of my pupils had ever heard of drummerworld before they met me. so i think that very few potential customers would see the results of your suggestion before they seek a teacher.
also price fixing of any sort is probably best discouraged. i think its best if each drum teacher evaluates themselves within their community and most importantly each pupil (and parent) evaluates their potential teachers. My price range is quite broad (i charge from £20 to £45 per hour with most lessons @ £30)
threads like this one and many other teaching threads on this site offer great advice for the taught and the teaching and hopefully the whole profile of drumming and drum teaching is raised.
such a list of teachers with associated pupil and parent refernces is a great idea as a separate website as it would require a different set-up to a forum and i'm almost certain that bernhard has enough on his plate.

just some thoughts

j

[jeffwj]

My price range is quite broad (i charge from £20 to £45 per hour with most lessons @ £30)
j

Just wondering why you have the range of prices for hour lessons. Do you teach at 3 different places - one that charges 20, another that charges 30, and yet another that charges 45? Or do you mean that you charge different amounts based on the student's level?


Jeff

[Phil Maturano]

It would be time consuming yes. Maybe it is better for a different website. I know Bernhard is very busy.

pm

[cnw60]

I recall that there was discussion around here (maybe a year ago??). One of the pro teachers, and my memory is totally failing me as to who it was, was setting up a website/database registry for drum teachers.

I don't know if it ever got off the ground - it seems like he was in the process of taking it live at that time, maybe somebody else here has a better memory than me and can track down the thread.

[jeffwj]

I think the exchange of ideas in this thread is very cathartic. We should continue to trade ideas and questions about teaching. We have the luxury of having Phil Maturano, an outstanding educator, here offering information and answering questions.

One question I have for Phil (others may answer too, of course.) You mentioned in a previous thread that those with less experience should be studying instead of teaching - of course I am paraphrasing. While I agree with you on this, it leads to the following questions:

1. How would one become a teacher if not by the "trial by fire" method? Do you believe there should be some type of apprenticeship with a master teacher?

2. The cities in which you and I teach have no lack of teachers. But there are small towns all over the country that have very few professional musicians. The stores are small and privately owned - no Sam Ash or Guitar Center. If the local "weekend warriors" didn't step up to the plate, there would be no one to teach the kids. Parents of beginning students probably would not want to drive out of town for lessons. Do you believe, in this case, that any help is better than none at all? It's a tough call.

As far as question #2 goes, it was a dilemma I was faced with when I left Pennsylvania. I was the head instructor at a small music store. I offered to help find my replacement when I left to move on to do more playing and teaching. There were a lot of drummers who would play by ear (and teach by ear.) I couldn't find anyone whose reading and technique was strong enough to take my students in the direction that I had started. I think they hired someone who showed kids beats instead of reinforcing reading, technique, coordination, and a working knowledge of styles.

Jeff

[Phil Maturano]

I think the exchange of ideas in this thread is very cathartic. We should continue to trade ideas and questions about teaching. We have the luxury of having Phil Maturano, an outstanding educator, here offering information and answering questions. One question I have for Phil (others may answer too, of course.) You mentioned in a previous thread that those with less experience should be studying instead of teaching - of course I am paraphrasing. While I agree with you on this, it leads to the following questions: 1. How would one become a teacher if not by the "trial by fire" method? Do you believe there should be some type of apprenticeship with a master teacher? 2. The cities in which you and I teach have no lack of teachers. But there are small towns all over the country that have very few professional musicians. The stores are small and privately owned - no Sam Ash or Guitar Center. If the local "weekend warriors" didn't step up to the plate, there would be no one to teach the kids. Parents of beginning students probably would not want to drive out of town for lessons. Do you believe, in this case, that any help is better than none at all? It's a tough call. As far as question #2 goes, it was a dilemma I was faced with when I left Pennsylvania. I was the head instructor at a small music store. I offered to help find my replacement when I left to move on to do more playing and teaching. There were a lot of drummers who would play by ear (and teach by ear.) I couldn't find anyone whose reading and technique was strong enough to take my students in the direction that I had started. I think they hired someone who showed kids beats instead of reinforcing reading, technique, coordination, and a working knowledge of styles. Jeff

First of all thank you for your kindness and wonderful words. Coming from you it is a great compliment.

I have to word this carefully. Tomorrow I will post the full response.
Peace
PM

[Deltadrummer]

It would be nice if every teacher could afford Drummer's Collective, go through a two year program, and come out the other side a drum teacher.

But I don't know that standardization would necessarily lead to the betterment of the profession. Every major university in American now has a music department; but that has done little for the culture of American music, esp since most of them don't even teach American music. Standardization tends to stifle the creative aspects of enterprise. In any art form that would be most problematic; but drumming, which is such an abstract art, would seem one of the least to benefit from such. Drumming is the most rebellious and ritualistic of instruments, anyway. And for some, the most annoying. that's why we love it.

Two things I have learned about life is that idiots rise to the top or the heap, and social groups tend to ostracize anybody who is different. One of my favorite books is Enforcing Normalcy: disability, deafness and the body; by Lennard Davis, which I would suggest every teacher read. It is a critical look at American values: difference and cultural norms, and the way that their continued enforcement has shaped American culture from the days of slavery and Barnum, through to the contemporary need to incessantly qualify every 'defect' as somehow needing our impassioned attention and quantification: diagnose and pop. Doesn't art need to challenge that at some level? What would that say about the current extreme drumming craze?

And teachers can be the worst when it comes to "just not getting it." One of my little kids came home all upset the other day because his music teacher over-criticized his contest solo. This was the same teacher who told him he should practice a single stroke roll as fast as he can, he's nine, hold the stick on the hole you make when you do an okay sign, and then undermined his confidence two days before a contest. She told him he couldn't do the solo and this is why no forth grader has ever done this competition before. The things she tells this kid; I have to say, "I don't want to disagree with your teacher but, don't ever do that." And don't ever say that to your students.

Not every drummer needs to learn to read. Buddy didn't read. Many learn best by ear. That's the way you learn tabla. Not every student benefits from a plan, some learn in a free form. Not every student has an objective or knows what that objective is. There are few absolutes out there in the real world. Though we can praise a Jeff Hamilton or Dennis Chambers, a lot of folks who do music for a living are just not that 'good' by all these standards.. Would standardization change that? Does it need to?

May be a little of the devil's advocate in all this, a quality which always makes me the life of the party. :P

[fourstringdrums]

I would say whoever wants to do lessons in a store should first be a music university grad or something comparable to that. Have vast life experience at least and have extensive study under your belt. So that you can empathize with the student. The weekend warrior thing. I feel sorry for people having to take lessons under those circumstances. I suffered so much because of bad teaching as a kid. And so have many of my friends. I had to be broken of all the bad habits others put into me and that took allot of time, also caused much trouble. I remember to this day, being 7 years old, and taking some lessons with a crazy guy who use to smack my hands when i didnt do something right. And also screamed at me, 2 inches from my face full blast! I would leave the room crying every time!

Just curious, do you feel that I should quit my teaching based on what you've said? I teach at a store and don't have any music degrees. As we discussed on the phone, this is my first time teaching. I have gigged before, but only a few times in the last 10 years. The most experience I have is being at the instrument for 16 years and actively taking lessons for about 3 of those years. The rest are primarily self taught but as I also said, i took lessons recently for a few years from a teacher who is the one who brought up my teaching to begin with and supported me in it. This is from a drummer who has about 40 years on the instrument, with a degree in music, and experience as both a music teacher and a teacher in general.

I agree that a teacher needs to have the ability to correctly teach students and needs to be fit to teach as a person (the teacher you described above...god I can't even imagine that), but if we ruled out everyone who didn't have years of gigging or teaching experience under their belt, even if they were a great drummer and teacher, that would rule out a lot of people.

[Phil Maturano]

Just curious, do you feel that I should quit my teaching based on what you've said? I teach at a store and don't have any music degrees. As we discussed on the phone, this is my first time teaching. I have gigged before, but only a few times in the last 10 years. The most experience I have is being at the instrument for 16 years and actively taking lessons for about 3 of those years. The rest are primarily self taught but as I also said, i took lessons recently for a few years from a teacher who is the one who brought up my teaching to begin with and supported me in it. This is from a drummer who has about 40 years on the instrument, with a degree in music, and experience as both a music teacher and a teacher in general.

I agree that a teacher needs to have the ability to correctly teach students and needs to be fit to teach as a person (the teacher you described above...god I can't even imagine that), but if we ruled out everyone who didn't have years of gigging or teaching experience under their belt, even if they were a great drummer and teacher, that would rule out a lot of people.

Rob, I am wiped out and cannot write anymore, I need to repost the whole thing tomorrow. Reread it for clarity and sense haha! Just hold that thought for me. In brief...you seem to have allot of years on the kit so I would not be saying for you to stop.

PM

[Phil Maturano]

It would be nice if every teacher could afford Drummer's Collective, go through a two year program, and come out the other side a drum teacher.

But I don't know that standardization would necessarily lead to the betterment of the profession. Every major university in American now has a music department; but that has done little for the culture of American music, esp since most of them don't even teach American music. Standardization tends to stifle the creative aspects of enterprise. In any art form that would be most problematic; but drumming, which is such an abstract art, would seem one of the least to benefit from such. Drumming is the most rebellious and ritualistic of instruments, anyway. And for some, the most annoying. that's why we love it.

Two things I have learned about life is that idiots rise to the top or the heap, and social groups tend to ostracize anybody who is different. One of my favorite books is Enforcing Normalcy: disability, deafness and the body; by Lennard Davis, which I would suggest every teacher read. It is a critical look at American values: difference and cultural norms, and the way that their continued enforcement has shaped American culture from the days of slavery and Barnum, through to the contemporary need to incessantly qualify every 'defect' as somehow needing our impassioned attention and quantification: diagnose and pop. Doesn't art need to challenge that at some level? What would that say about the current extreme drumming craze?

And teachers can be the worst when it comes to "just not getting it." One of my little kids came home all upset the other day because his music teacher over-criticized his contest solo. This was the same teacher who told him he should practice a single stroke roll as fast as he can, he's nine, hold the stick on the hole you make when you do an okay sign, and then undermined his confidence two days before a contest. She told him he couldn't do the solo and this is why no forth grader has ever done this competition before. The things she tells this kid; I have to say, "I don't want to disagree with your teacher but, don't ever do that." And don't ever say that to your students.

Not every drummer needs to learn to read. Buddy didn't read. Many learn best by ear. That's the way you learn tabla. Not every student benefits from a plan, some learn in a free form. Not every student has an objective or knows what that objective is. There are few absolutes out there in the real world. Though we can praise a Jeff Hamilton or Dennis Chambers, a lot of folks who do music for a living are just not that 'good' by all these standards.. Would standardization change that? Does it need to?

May be a little of the devil's advocate in all this, a quality which always makes me the life of the party. :P

I dont know if I can agree that you learn tabla by ear. It is a very complex and disciplined process which takes years and is steeped deeply in master student traditions.

I agree that "in this country" Idiots rise to the top...but to the top of what. An illusion created by the media and the music "business" -

And also many great incredibly
wonderful musicians and artists also rise to the top. Depends on what top you mean.

[Deltadrummer]

Depends on what top you mean.

I was vague so as not to get too political. :)

Oh what the heck.

In my lifetime, this country has been run by:
A man who told us he wasn't a crook and then had to leave office for his criminal activities.
He was succeeded by a man who couldn't stop from banging his head and falling down flights of stairs.
He was succeeded by a man who was so inept at administration he ended up firing his whole staff.
He was succeeded by a man who ran the country into the ground in debt while the rich got richer the poor got poorer and people all over the world were dying of AIDS; but he slept through most of it.
He was succeeded by a man who spent his time trying to rid the world of people he put in office.
He was succeeded by a man who lied about using sexual favors as job requirement, and then lied about lying about it.
He was succeeded by a man who stole the election, couldn't say 'nuclear,' and the rich got richer, the poor got poorer and the country was driven into the ground with debt.
He was succeeded by some fool who really thought he or she could make sense of all this.

[NUTHA JASON]

Just wondering why you have the range of prices for hour lessons. Do you teach at 3 different places - one that charges 20, another that charges 30, and yet another that charges 45? Or do you mean that you charge different amounts based on the student's level?


Jeff


My prices* are as follows:

£30/lesson
£20/lesson (special rate for local pupils – chessington and nearby)
I will also give lessons to pairs of pupils at a discounted rate of + £10 (eg. The weekly hour for a pair would then be £40)

(*these prices apply to lessons given in my practice room. Add £5 <negotiable by distance> for lessons given at the pupil's address)

j

[Latin Groover]

I recall that there was discussion around here (maybe a year ago??). One of the pro teachers, and my memory is totally failing me as to who it was, was setting up a website/database registry for drum teachers.

I don't know if it ever got off the ground - it seems like he was in the process of taking it live at that time, maybe somebody else here has a better memory than me and can track down the thread.

It was Pat Petrillo. Here's the link. Although I'm not too sure on how it's working out. For example if you click search criteria 'USA' it only shows 25 results. I imagine the hard part is getting the word out about such a resource. Great resource as well if it could get to it's full potential.

[Phil Maturano]

I was vague so as not to get too political. :)

Oh what the heck.

In my lifetime, this country has been run by:
A man who told us he wasn't a crook and then had to leave office for his criminal activities.
He was succeeded by a man who couldn't stop from banging his head and falling down flights of stairs.
He was succeeded by a man who was so inept at administration he ended up firing his whole staff.
He was succeeded by a man who ran the country into the ground in debt while the rich got richer the poor got poorer and people all over the world were dying of AIDS; but he slept through most of it.
He was succeeded by a man who spent his time trying to rid the world of people he put in office.
He was succeeded by a man who lied about using sexual favors as job requirement, and then lied about lying about it.
He was succeeded by a man who stole the election, couldn't say 'nuclear,' and the rich got richer, the poor got poorer and the country was driven into the ground with debt.
He was succeeded by some fool who really thought he or she could make sense of all this.

Dude check out my youtube page. I am right there with you. I have been getting back into Chomsky and possibly becoming a communist hahaha!
We should start a new thread about this.
youtube.com/philmaturanodrums

[Phil Maturano]

It was Pat Petrillo. Here's the link. Although I'm not too sure on how it's working out. For example if you click search criteria 'USA' it only shows 25 results. I imagine the hard part is getting the word out about such a resource. Great resource as well if it could get to it's full potential.

Your right it is Pat's thing. I dont know why it doesnt work more:-(

[Latin Groover]

Your right it is Pat's thing. I dont know why it doesnt work more:-(

Yea, like you guys have been discussing, if it reached it's wanted potential, it would be amazing. Just search the site and find some great teachers in your area, or like another thread you replied in Phil about guys going overseas. Check where some pro's are and grab a lesson. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be going quite as well as everyone would like it to.

[Deltadrummer]

Dude check out my youtube page. I am right there with you. I have been getting back into Chomsky and possibly becoming a communist hahaha!
We should start a new thread about this.
youtube.com/philmaturanodrums


I was in Birder's the other day and there was Manufacturing Consent on the front table. Still relevant as it was 20 years ago. When I teach my college Intro to Music class, I actually teach Chomsky and all the kids think I'm nuts. Usually I use it as a vehicle to demonstrate how the industry markets music. During the whole Iraqui thing back in 2001, I was teaching three intro classes about 150 kids and it was such a nice opportunity to teach it. Of all those kids, not one could understand how the administration was using WMD's as a ploy to 'Manufacture Consent' for a full scale invasion of a third world country. I never got to see their reactions when it was all exposed; but I do know that somewhere down the line, those kids all got the lesson of their life.

[Phil Maturano]

I was in Birder's the other day and there was Manufacturing Consent on the front table. Still relevant as it was 20 years ago. When I teach my college Intro to Music class, I actually teach Chomsky and all the kids think I'm nuts. Usually I use it as a vehicle to demonstrate how the industry markets music. During the whole Iraqui thing back in 2001, I was teaching three intro classes about 150 kids and it was such a nice opportunity to teach it. Of all those kids, not one could understand how the administration was using WMD's as a ploy to 'Manufacture Consent' for a full scale invasion of a third world country. I never got to see their reactions when it was all exposed; but I do know that somewhere down the line, those kids all got the lesson of their life.

INcredible bro! I wish i could have seen there faces when they discovered it. It is so sad here in America. How brainwashed most people have become. The main issue is that nobody cares if they are messed with either. To be honest, if it wasn't for musicians in this country, I wouldn't live here.
pm

[jeffwj]

I agree that a teacher needs to have the ability to correctly teach students and needs to be fit to teach as a person (the teacher you described above...god I can't even imagine that), but if we ruled out everyone who didn't have years of gigging or teaching experience under their belt, even if they were a great drummer and teacher, that would rule out a lot of people.

The parents of beginning students have it hard. They don't know anything about drumming, so they take them to a music store thinking that the instructor must be qualified. Many instructors are, but the ones who aren't end up bringing the students down the wrong road - or even dead end. I try not to speak badly about other teachers, but I did have a parent come right out and ask me if she wasted her money on their last teacher. I had to answer in the nicest way that I could, but she knew that it was really "yes."

I'm not against music stores, in fact I still teach one day a week at Richmond Music. They have a wonderful teaching staff there. But I have seen other stores that just "fill the void" in the teaching room so they don't lose the student traffic in and out of the store.

[fourstringdrums]

The parents of beginning students have it hard. They don't know anything about drumming, so they take them to a music store thinking that the instructor must be qualified. Many instructors are, but the ones who aren't end up bringing the students down the wrong road - or even dead end. I try not to speak badly about other teachers, but I did have a parent come right out and ask me if she wasted her money on their last teacher. I had to answer in the nicest way that I could, but she knew that it was really "yes."

I'm not against music stores, in fact I still teach one day a week at Richmond Music. They have a wonderful teaching staff there. But I have seen other stores that just "fill the void" in the teaching room so they don't lose the student traffic in and out of the store.

Well honestly, all this talk is starting to have me doubting whether or not I should be doing this. I know that I'm not steering the student down the wrong road. I'm teaching them what I have been taught and doing it the best I can. I know that I'm not as experienced when it comes to my drumming education, but I believe I can still do some good. Still, sometimes I wonder if it is something that is a concern, if I should be doing it.

[jeffwj]

Well honestly, all this talk is starting to have me doubting whether or not I should be doing this. I know that I'm not steering the student down the wrong road. I'm teaching them what I have been taught and doing it the best I can. I know that I'm not as experienced when it comes to my drumming education, but I believe I can still do some good. Still, sometimes I wonder if it is something that is a concern, if I should be doing it.

My question was not meant to bring people to the point of quitting teaching, but rather to have them ask how to get from point A (new teacher, just starting out) to point B (professional teacher) to point C (master teacher.)

1. How would one become a teacher if not by the "trial by fire" method? Do you believe there should be some type of apprenticeship with a master teacher?

[fourstringdrums]

My question was not meant to bring people to the point of quitting teaching, but rather to have them ask how to get from point A (new teacher, just starting out) to point B (professional teacher) to point C (master teacher.)

I know that wasn't your intent, I've just myself been doubting if I'm doing the right things lately. I still talk to my personal mentor and he says I'm doing fine, but for me I just think too much about how I'm not experienced that much and how much more I have to learn or brush up on and it's overwhelming.

[Phil Maturano]

The parents of beginning students have it hard. They don't know anything about drumming, so they take them to a music store thinking that the instructor must be qualified. Many instructors are, but the ones who aren't end up bringing the students down the wrong road - or even dead end. I try not to speak badly about other teachers, but I did have a parent come right out and ask me if she wasted her money on their last teacher. I had to answer in the nicest way that I could, but she knew that it was really "yes."

I'm not against music stores, in fact I still teach one day a week at Richmond Music. They have a wonderful teaching staff there. But I have seen other stores that just "fill the void" in the teaching room so they don't lose the student traffic in and out of the store.

Hi Jeff...yeah, in many instances the stores have developed a terrible reputation. I cant understand why. There are so many great drummers out there. Its baffling.

As far as teaching very young beginners goes, I myself have only been able to keep their interest and attention by having them watch what I play. They cannot grasp the concept of fulcrum or any concept involving verbal communication. It is important to be able to deliver what you teach. Especially since they have no other way to absorb. The stages a human brain goes through simply cannot be ignored. You cant hand a kid a piece of paper and say "read this" or even explain what a 1/4 note is. You have to get to him through the senses that are the strongest in whatever stage of development he is in.

Check this out

http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/printindex.php3?main=fa/child-brain

There are lots of things to consider there.

All this said, I don't think i am the guy anymore for very young kids. Just to much other stuff going on for me. It is fascinating to watch them discover and improve. You do have to have a child like brain sort of like Fred Rodgers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Rogers'_Neighborhood

- Mister Rogers' Neighborhood was characterized by its quiet simplicity and gentleness-

That is something that appeals to children.

The drums should be played with dynamics in mind so you don't shock the child. Etc etc

As far as teaching pro-minded drummers, the dynamics of the situation changes in so many ways. No one on this earth can possibly know everything about drumming. And after a certain point, if the student is serious, they will eventually seek out guys who have developed an expertise in specific areas. And that is what they should do!

pm

[jeffwj]

All this said, I don't think i am the guy anymore for very young kids. It is fascinating to watch them discover and improve. You do have to have a child like brain sort of like Fred Rodgers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Rogers'_Neighborhood

- Mister Rogers' Neighborhood was characterized by its quiet simplicity and gentleness- pm

It was also characterized by imagination. I have been thinking lately about the relationship between imagination and improvisation. Children have an amazing imagination. Adults tend to focus more on reality and less on fantasy.

A psychologist friend of mine told me that when you are stressed out, the brain shuts off the part that is involved with imagination. I guess that makes sense - if stress was a reaction to danger, the mind would not be best spent in la-la-land. Adults tend to have more stress than children. He also said that adults can have just as much imagination as children if it is practiced. This may mean getting lost in a fiction novel or just spending time daydreaming. It would be interesting to see if an increase in imagination leads to an improvement in improvisation.

I know it's a bit off subject, but I thought I'd mention this hypothesis.

Jeff

[Deltadrummer]

I've been teaching kids for about ten years with a brief two year hiatus. when I got back into teaching drumming, I did not want to take anyone under the age of 16 unless they had already started. So one of my students had a little brother and he was part of the bargain, and I just loved working with him. So now I have a couple of little kiddies.

The first thing I learned was that there was all this controversy getting kids to hold a drum stick. Most of the literature I read said don't worry about it. But I soon found that it you don't, somewhere down the line you have to deal with it and now you have a kid who has been with you for two of three months developing/reinforcing bad habits. So now I make it a game from the first lesson, and all my kids learn what a fulcrum is. We go over it ever week. It's a see saw, it's a balancing point. I even talk to them about physics: gravity, resistance, conservation of momentum, the solar eclipse, the leap year: We throw sticks, bounce them off drums like Gene Krupa. Now they're learning history.

Or is it all just like a basketball? What do you do to make a basket ball bounce? You let it go. Well anyone can do that. What did 'you' do to make it bounce? Nothing. That's what you have to do to make your stick bounce. "Just let go, Relax" Now that's hard for even grown-ups to learn. They all love the little basketball thing. The problem is that every one wants to play fast. This is a problem that drummers have from the onset. Once you get them to relax, its all down hill, well at least for the next six seconds. So I have two rules: Count and Slow Down!!!! I think if you can teach them that, they have learned a lot.

Little four year old comes into the store with his grandma and says that he wants a xylophone, any kid at four who can say xylophone deserves to get one. I told him, if he could say decrescendo I would really be impressed. He just looked at me funny.

So how did I get the kid's solo ready in ten minutes after his teacher had told him that she should have never let a four year old do a solo; I had him act it out. He had it memorized from all the acting out we had done. He just needed to remember that.

[Phil Maturano]

It was also characterized by imagination. I have been thinking lately about the relationship between imagination and improvisation. Children have an amazing imagination. Adults tend to focus more on reality and less on fantasy.

A psychologist friend of mine told me that when you are stressed out, the brain shuts off the part that is involved with imagination. I guess that makes sense - if stress was a reaction to danger, the mind would not be best spent in la-la-land. Adults tend to have more stress than children. He also said that adults can have just as much imagination as children if it is practiced. This may mean getting lost in a fiction novel or just spending time daydreaming. It would be interesting to see if an increase in imagination leads to an improvement in improvisation.

I know it's a bit off subject, but I thought I'd mention this hypothesis.

Jeff

Its a wonderful hypothesis and not off subject I think. Imagination is very important. In many ways childlike qualities have to be retained to be a great actor painter musician etc.

It could be that accessing the imaginative state is a separate skill then imagination itself.
One that we might loose touch with as adult life is invaded by drudgery and routine. Also imagination takes on different roles as you get older.
We are lucky that we HAVE to use it in childlike ways:-)

[Phil Maturano]

I've been teaching kids for about ten years with a brief two year hiatus. when I got back into teaching drumming, I did not want to take anyone under the age of 16 unless they had already started. So one of my students had a little brother and he was part of the bargain, and I just loved working with him. So now I have a couple of little kiddies.

The first thing I learned was that there was all this controversy getting kids to hold a drum stick. Most of the literature I read said don't worry about it. But I soon found that it you don't, somewhere down the line you have to deal with it and now you have a kid who has been with you for two of three months developing/reinforcing bad habits. So now I make it a game from the first lesson, and all my kids learn what a fulcrum is. We go over it ever week. It's a see saw, it's a balancing point. I even talk to them about physics: gravity, resistance, conservation of momentum, the solar eclipse, the leap year: We throw sticks, bounce them off drums like Gene Krupa. Now they're learning history.

Or is it all just like a basketball? What do you do to make a basket ball bounce? You let it go. Well anyone can do that. What did 'you' do to make it bounce? Nothing. That's what you have to do to make your stick bounce. "Just let go, Relax" Now that's hard for even grown-ups to learn. They all love the little basketball thing. The problem is that every one wants to play fast. This is a problem that drummers have from the onset. Once you get them to relax, its all down hill, well at least for the next six seconds. So I have two rules: Count and Slow Down!!!! I think if you can teach them that, they have learned a lot.

Little four year old comes into the store with his grandma and says that he wants a xylophone, any kid at four who can say xylophone deserves to get one. I told him, if he could say decrescendo I would really be impressed. He just looked at me funny.

So how did I get the kid's solo ready in ten minutes after his teacher had told him that she should have never let a four year old do a solo; I had him act it out. He had it memorized from all the acting out we had done. He just needed to remember that.

You have to like very young kids too. It sounds like you do. I have no particular interest in them so it doesn't help. There is a guy in the Netherlands who is just you. His name is Hans Intzants. (Very good drummer) He is just terrific with the kids and he loves it.
Has all these things worked out for them, games, systems etc.

You guys should meet here over the net. Would be interesting to read.

[Phil Maturano]

I think the exchange of ideas in this thread is very cathartic. We should continue to trade ideas and questions about teaching. We have the luxury of having Phil Maturano, an outstanding educator, here offering information and answering questions.

One question I have for Phil (others may answer too, of course.) You mentioned in a previous thread that those with less experience should be studying instead of teaching - of course I am paraphrasing. While I agree with you on this, it leads to the following questions:

1. How would one become a teacher if not by the "trial by fire" method? Do you believe there should be some type of apprenticeship with a master teacher?

2. The cities in which you and I teach have no lack of teachers. But there are small towns all over the country that have very few professional musicians. The stores are small and privately owned - no Sam Ash or Guitar Center. If the local "weekend warriors" didn't step up to the plate, there would be no one to teach the kids. Parents of beginning students probably would not want to drive out of town for lessons. Do you believe, in this case, that any help is better than none at all? It's a tough call.

As far as question #2 goes, it was a dilemma I was faced with when I left Pennsylvania. I was the head instructor at a small music store. I offered to help find my replacement when I left to move on to do more playing and teaching. There were a lot of drummers who would play by ear (and teach by ear.) I couldn't find anyone whose reading and technique was strong enough to take my students in the direction that I had started. I think they hired someone who showed kids beats instead of reinforcing reading, technique, coordination, and a working knowledge of styles.

Jeff

Hi Jeff, thanks for asking this very important stuff.

Before I answer I have to say something that i hope will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended. If it comes across wrong it may be that my ability to write is not strong enough to explain in all the subtly required.
So if I may...

I am pretty hardcore when it comes to drumming. To me it is life itself and there is no separation. It is a spiritual journey. A quest, a Jihad (in the peaceful sense) whatever you want to call it. Something that starts from the beginning of your life. A power so strong it diverts all your attention and causes your entire life to revolve around it. Many people feel this way of course and it should give insight as to why there is responsibility as a teacher.

So if I may...

I do believe in "apprenticeship with a master teacher" in Music. It is tradition in many cultures especially in ancient ones. This relationship is prevalent in many of the arts and it is a wonderful experience. For both teacher and student.
In the US where the powers that be want to devalue music, this has become white washed to some degree but not completely. If you ask about enrollment levels in all major music schools around the world, it is higher then EVER. Even in this horrible environment of shallow artistic values, many US music schools are filled to capacity! That goes to show that most everyone knows that if you want to learn and get your moneys worth, go to a place that has a big vested interest in your learning. This phenomena is repeated all over Europe. In London for example, there are great schools and they are all full! Drumtech, ACM Guildford, The institute, LCCM etc etc. In the Netheralnds, in Germany same. Here in NY, New school, DC, Manhattan school...all filled with hundreds and hundreds of drummers. In LA ..PIT has 300 drummers enrolled. At Berklee there are over 500 drummers enrolled!

I think its mostly teenagers with poor guidance that think they don't need lessons. Some forum trolls have a tendency to create the illusion that no one wants lessons and its not cool or not a good value. The reality is much different. People are spending "thousands" to learn.

If any one cares I can post the story of how I fell into teaching. Maybe it will help those wondering how to start teaching? I do not consider myself a master at anything nor do I want to be. Nor will i ever be. Drumming and music, its all simply too vast. From my experience maybe someone can see how you might get started in teaching. Thats all.

Trial by fire ....well...

Teaching is a privilege that you earn. Not something you just decide one day that you will do for extra cash. The damage that this way of thinking can cause is too great. It is a big responsibility. The standards I have been held up to as a teacher may not be the standard in every place. In fact it is not. I cannot in good conscience teach about something out side my range of knowledge and ability. Its always been that way in my mind. Lots of people do teach bologna and their Karma will soon be played out. But, in these cases it is mostly in places where they can get away with it. I don't think it would happen in a high level music school with lots of visibility. The reputation of the school is ridding on your shoulders as a player and teacher. No one would risk hiring you without credentials.

All that said, I dont oppose the independent guy who is trying to honestly teach. What i do oppose strongly is people charging money for something they have no clue about. As in the case of that character that was banned from here. The "less experienced should concentrate on learning" thing was directed at one person in particular who was obviously not even a drummer. He was just a scam artist who was trying to build a reputation by jumping on the back of the good name of this board. What he was saying was ridiculous, wrong, misleading and at some point dangerous when he started to advocate the use of drugs to improve performance. In general...if a person has no experience at all, no gigs, no teacher, no degree. Why on this earth would they be teaching? I would concentrate on learning my craft. One thing is getting together with friends and showing each other stuff (which i did plenty and that is great fun) and another thing is to charge people, total strangers, money for something that you have no experience in. That is immoral.
Would I allow my kid to be taught by a weekend warrior, even if he wasnt that serious or did not show a burning desire to play? Not me...maybe some people would. Not me. I would make him earn music. I would instill a respect and admiration for it. Take him to see great musicians play. Make him understand what it means to be on this earth and have the opportunity to play. That would be more valuable in the long run. IMHO.

As far as finding a replacement for you when you left. It shouldn't be your problem really. It should be the stores.
You cannot be held responsible for that.
With Love
PM

[Deltadrummer]

Its a wonderful hypothesis and not off subject I think. Imagination is very important. In many ways childlike qualities have to be retained to be a great actor painter musician etc.

It could be that accessing the imaginative state is a separate skill then imagination itself.
One that we might loose touch with as adult life is invaded by drudgery and routine. Also imagination takes on different roles as you get older.
We are lucky that we HAVE to use it in childlike ways:-)

Yes, and one of the reasons that I like working with children is because they are open to working in ways that we all should be working. The famous conductor Herbert von Karajan would not beat out time; but use movements that had significance known to the performers. These movements accessed aspects of the imagination to symbolize his interpretations of the music. I do this with little children. But once they turn 11 1/2 it is a different story, and their attitudes turns to, "I don't have to do this," even when we are learning Stone, as I am sure everyone knows. The first thing they ask is "Do you really have to do these twenty times, to which I get to answer, Twenty times? You'd be lucky to get off that easy."

[jeffwj]

If any one cares I can post the story of how I fell into teaching. Maybe it will help those wondering how to start teaching? PM

I'm up for a story.

Jeff

[tak22thegoat]

This is all interesting because I am a student and a kid. I consider myself a serious learner. For me, watching other drummers my age, the most important thing we need to learn is all the possibilities of drumming. Of course, not all kids want to get BETTER to the NEXT level. So they end playing Green Day songs with poor technique. Is that bad? No, it's perfectly okay. If he doesn't want to get better, that's his choice. However, a teacher should make the student be inspired to learn. The top 10 things that annoy me about "bad" teachers are as follows.
1. Teaches the kids "beats"
2. Doesn't teach the kids how to practice.
3. Gives exercises but doesn't tell me what the purpose of it is.
4. Doesn't give homework
5. Has me doing the same exercises for 15 minutes
6. Isn't quick to the point
7. That doesn't know about a certain technique (Heel-Toe for example)
8. Has bad technique.
9. Cannot describe a certain point words
10. Doesn't have enough knowledge of several styles (Versatility)
Here is a more detailed description.
1. My old teacher used to teach me simple beats and variations. Now, this is fine for a beginning student learning technique, as technique can be taught by teaching the kid beats. However, if the teacher is teaching a beat, then he/she should also teach how to make variations of it.
2. My friends do not know how to practice, so he has poor technique, and can only play beats. He has been playing for 4 years and he can only do a 16th note rock beat.
3. I used to get exercises from my teacher, (stick control, etc.) and he didn't tell me what they do. I ended up asking people on this forum.
4. Homework is crucial for learning. Learning at home is necessary.
5. What annoys me is that the lesson is only 30 minutes, and my old teacher used to take 15 minutes making me do accenting exercises which I can practice at home.
6. Explains the certain point an unclear way.
7. I asked my old teacher about heel-toe and he didn't know it. A teacher should study every useful technique, so when necessary, he/she can teach the student the technique.
8. My old teacher had very poor technique. (Pinky sticking out, stiff, etc.)
9. I asked my teacher how to get a certain sound out of the hi hat. He couldn't describe in words, so instead, he showed it by playing, which annoys me also.
10. Some teachers have limited knowledge of a lot of styles. Obviously the teacher is going to be better at a certain style than another, but he/she should be able to teach any style with authenticity.

In conclusion, I am only 13, so my points stated above are probably false, so please do not bash me about it. However, I have yet to find a teacher that actually teaches well except for my first teacher, who I unfortunately lost contact with because I moved to Japan.

Any thoughts?

[fourstringdrums]

This is all interesting because I am a student and a kid. I consider myself a serious learner. For me, watching other drummers my age, the most important thing we need to learn is all the possibilities of drumming. Of course, not all kids want to get BETTER to the NEXT level. So they end playing Green Day songs with poor technique. Is that bad? No, it's perfectly okay. If he doesn't want to get better, that's his choice. However, a teacher should make the student be inspired to learn. The top 10 things that annoy me about "bad" teachers are as follows.
1. Teaches the kids "beats"
2. Doesn't teach the kids how to practice.
3. Gives exercises but doesn't tell me what the purpose of it is.
4. Doesn't give homework
5. Has me doing the same exercises for 15 minutes
6. Isn't quick to the point
7. That doesn't know about a certain technique (Heel-Toe for example)
8. Has bad technique.
9. Cannot describe a certain point words
10. Doesn't have enough knowledge of several styles (Versatility)
Here is a more detailed description.
1. My old teacher used to teach me simple beats and variations. Now, this is fine for a beginning student learning technique, as technique can be taught by teaching the kid beats. However, if the teacher is teaching a beat, then he/she should also teach how to make variations of it.
2. My friends do not know how to practice, so he has poor technique, and can only play beats. He has been playing for 4 years and he can only do a 16th note rock beat.
3. I used to get exercises from my teacher, (stick control, etc.) and he didn't tell me what they do. I ended up asking people on this forum.
4. Homework is crucial for learning. Learning at home is necessary.
5. What annoys me is that the lesson is only 30 minutes, and my old teacher used to take 15 minutes making me do accenting exercises which I can practice at home.
6. Explains the certain point an unclear way.
7. I asked my old teacher about heel-toe and he didn't know it. A teacher should study every useful technique, so when necessary, he/she can teach the student the technique.
8. My old teacher had very poor technique. (Pinky sticking out, stiff, etc.)
9. I asked my teacher how to get a certain sound out of the hi hat. He couldn't describe in words, so instead, he showed it by playing, which annoys me also.
10. Some teachers have limited knowledge of a lot of styles. Obviously the teacher is going to be better at a certain style than another, but he/she should be able to teach any style with authenticity.

In conclusion, I am only 13, so my points stated above are probably false, so please do not bash me about it. However, I have yet to find a teacher that actually teaches well except for my first teacher, who I unfortunately lost contact with because I moved to Japan.

Any thoughts?

All good points though I'm a little confused at #9. "I asked my teacher how to get a certain sound out of the hi hat. He couldn't describe in words, so instead, he showed it by playing, which annoys me also". Isn't this the best way to show something? Sometimes it's easier to show what you're talking about by doing instead of just verbally describing it. Though while he's showing it he should be telling you how he's doing it as well.

[Deltadrummer]

This is all interesting because I am a student and a kid. I consider myself a serious learner. For me, watching other drummers my age, the most important thing we need to learn is all the possibilities of drumming. Of course, not all kids want to get BETTER to the NEXT level. So they end playing Green Day songs with poor technique. Is that bad? No, it's perfectly okay. If he doesn't want to get better, that's his choice. However, a teacher should make the student be inspired to learn. The top 10 things that annoy me about "bad" teachers are as follows.
1. Teaches the kids "beats"
2. Doesn't teach the kids how to practice.
Any thoughts?

You are quite critical for a 13 year old. I like you #2 because the lesson is really a practice session, and the teacher should be exemplifying how to practice during this session. If that is not happening there is a big problem

[Deltadrummer]

I'm up for a story.

Jeff

Yeah, Phil, What's your story? :)

I notice you are in the NY area. Talk about a place saturated with great drum teachers. I live a stones throw from three people who are featured on the cover page to this site,15-20 in any direction. :)

I may have to move at some point to be a big fish in a little pond, rather than a tadpole in the ocean waiting to be eaten up.

[jeffwj]

All good points though I'm a little confused at #9. "I asked my teacher how to get a certain sound out of the hi hat. He couldn't describe in words, so instead, he showed it by playing, which annoys me also". Isn't this the best way to show something? Sometimes it's easier to show what you're talking about by doing instead of just verbally describing it. Though while he's showing it he should be telling you how he's doing it as well.

I agree. You can't teach something like the open-closed swing hi-hat pattern using just words. The hi-hats have to blend together in just the right way. I play audio or video examples of this style, then explain the technique (with demonstrations, ) finally the student plays it.

Tak22, you show yourself to be the kind of person who can see through the smoke and mirrors to discern the quality of instruction you are getting. If more people of your age were like you, teachers would have to be held to higher standards.

[Phil Maturano]

I agree. You can't teach something like the open-closed swing hi-hat pattern using just words. The hi-hats have to blend together in just the right way. I play audio or video examples of this style, then explain the technique (with demonstrations, ) finally the student plays it.

Tak22, you show yourself to be the kind of person who can see through the smoke and mirrors to discern the quality of instruction you are getting. If more people of your age were like you, teachers would have to be held to higher standards.


Yeah I would say he has a pretty good awareness. Some of those things he mentions are old tricks for guys who want to chew up time!
Hey Jeff can I call you? I need to ask you something.
PM

[jeffwj]

Yeah I would say he has a pretty good awareness. Some of those things he mentions are old tricks for guys who want to chew up time!
Hey Jeff can I call you? I need to ask you something.
PM

Yeah - I'm teaching a class from 6-8. Call before or after. I'll private message you my cell.

Jeff

[mattyfatty76]

Hello,

I'm looking for a good teacher in the Providence RI area. Would any of you happen to know someone in this area?

Thank you,

Matt

[tak22thegoat]

All good points though I'm a little confused at #9. "I asked my teacher how to get a certain sound out of the hi hat. He couldn't describe in words, so instead, he showed it by playing, which annoys me also". Isn't this the best way to show something? Sometimes it's easier to show what you're talking about by doing instead of just verbally describing it. Though while he's showing it he should be telling you how he's doing it as well.

Sorry, I made it very unclear. I meant that the teacher explains things too broad, and with virtually no detail at all making the point unclear.

You are quite critical for a 13 year old. I like you #2 because the lesson is really a practice session, and the teacher should be exemplifying how to practice during this session. If that is not happening there is a big problem

Yes, most people my age don't practice because they don't know how and they were never taught how!


Tak22, you show yourself to be the kind of person who can see through the smoke and mirrors to discern the quality of instruction you are getting. If more people of your age were like you, teachers would have to be held to higher standards.

I wish more young people could be more critical about how they are instructed. However, it would be impossible to have more than 50% of the students actually care for how well they are taught. Some people just play the drums for fun, and just want to learn the basics. Some are serious about the drums and actually want to learn.

Yeah I would say he has a pretty good awareness. Some of those things he mentions are old tricks for guys who want to chew up time!
PM

Haha yes. As Tommy Igoe has said, there is a need for more teachers that are qualified. That does not mean that all the hard working teachers out there should quit. But if a teacher is just teaching for money, and does not care about how much the student progresses, etc. what's the point? The first teacher I had was one of the best teachers out there. (In my opinion) He was qualified and taught music at the high school. He was VERY friendly, even went one hour over the lesson time, and ordered tickets for us to see Dave Weckl perform at NJ PAC. If it weren't for him, I would have probably quit the drums by now.

[Deltadrummer]

I can't believe your 13. If you are this wise and your mind is this developed at 13, the world better watch out. :)

It's funny you mentioned Tommy Igoe because Phil reminds me a lot of Tommy. If you could find the two in the same room, you could eaves drop on an interesting conversation. In the NY/ NJ area there is of course no shortage of good teachers; but I think the problem is the lack of drum set instruction that is available at the college level, and the lack of interest of American music in colleges. I think this is changing. I won't see it happen in my life time.

When I was your age, there were really two books that I used: Monster Book of Rock Drumming and Advanced Concepts for the Modern Drummer, and of course the Stone books for technique. I went through both set books and Chapin suggested going through his book open-handed, which I did with both. There weren't a lot of books on Jazz or Afro-Cuban drumming or technique the way there are today, so for years that was my education. could you imagine a world without Groove Essentials or The Art of Bop Drumming. I think that all this is changing, because of the materials now available, just not fast enough. Never mind the way the industry of music has changed over the last few years..

[Phil Maturano]

I can't believe your 13. If you are this wise and your mind is this developed at 13, the world better watch out. :)

It's funny you mentioned Tommy Igoe because Phil reminds me a lot of Tommy. If you could find the two in the same room, you could eaves drop on an interesting conversation. In the NY/ NJ area there is of course no shortage of good teachers; but I think the problem is the lack of drum set instruction that is available at the college level, and the lack of interest of American music in colleges. I think this is changing. I won't see it happen in my life time.

When I was your age, there were really two books that I used: Monster Book of Rock Drumming and Advanced Concepts for the Modern Drummer, and of course the Stone books for technique. I went through both set books and Chapin suggested going through his book open-handed, which I did with both. There weren't a lot of books on Jazz or Afro-Cuban drumming or technique the way there are today, so for years that was my education. could you imagine a world without Groove Essentials or The Art of Bop Drumming. I think that all this is changing, because of the materials now available, just not fast enough. Never mind the way the industry of music has changed over the last few years..

Yeah man...when i was tak22's age there very little resources to learn latin music. There were a couple of books out there but they were very poorly produced and as i discovered later... just plain wrong. What I knew I had to learn on the street. Going to gigs asking questions etc, It took way longer then it should have, and many mistakes were made later on gigs. I got yelled at lots of times. And it caused me to lose jobs. Allot of times certain people tried to shut you out too! Thinking that you would later take their gigs. In the Latin drumming world especially. Back then lots of guys didnt want to show "anything" . Especially if you were ...lets say ( to be polite) American. It was secret information and forbidden to outsiders. Many elements of it are still very hard to learn because of these same problems. Not to mention the amount of material you need to know just to able to function in a group is staggering.

These guys now, are so lucky to have what they have. I dont think people are realizing how lucky they are.

There is a drummer I know from Russia, Alex Simonovsky, a great guy and lover of all things that have to do with drumming. He would tell me stories of how he had to hide in his basement to listen to the radio, to the American army station so that he could hear jazz and learn about it. It was forbidden to listen to Jazz back then and he could have been arrested. Can you imagine?

Now there are lots of DVD's and books . Its so much better this way. I hope that many more come out and we flood the world with drumming knowledge.

PM

[brittc89]

I teach on a very rare basis and I would say I fall into th classification of "the bad." However, the only times I do any teaching are when someone asks me very sincerely and even then, I stress that, in all honesty, Im no expert, these are all things based on my very limited experiece as a player and student and by all means is not the be all and end all of music, so take it with a grain of salt. I find my biggest flaw to be impatience. I just cant deal with not practicing and lack of effort. Those are the two things that bug me the most and I suppose they coincide to some degree. I just find that I often times have trouble empathizing with someone who wont practice and is not motivated to be the best player they could possibly be because I was (am) never like that and I just cant put myself in their shoes. A lot of times I sit there and begin thinking this is not worth any amount of money in the world to endure this. If they want they can just rent out my practice room for 15 dollars a half hour, but if you want a lesson, please, PRACTICE! But like I said, the lessons I give are few and far in between and often end up with me giving the student the number of a teacher who I feel could benefit them to a greater scale.

The odd thing is, I have always felt a need to teach to some extent. Like I like to explain things to people. BUT, as I found out much to my chagrin as a teacher, I really only enjoy going over and explaining high level things (and not just technical, but musical ideas) that interest me as well. This is why I cant teach at this point in my life, and I STRESS at this point in my life. Right now I find that as a teenager I am fairly selfish. Let me rephrase that from the standpoint of my parents "VERY SELFISH." I am constantly rapt in thought about my playing, constantly thinking about weaknesses and how I could improve on them, and generally consumed on a very large scale. And, in this selfish mindset I find that I am not really willing to step back and think about someone elses real needs as a student. While theyre trying so hard to be able to gain some sort of independence on the instrument, for example, Im zoning out and thinking about metric modulations. Its hard for me to step back and let someone elses needs consume me to the same extent mine do.

I dont want to get jumped on for that post because I dont claim to be a teacher, I just occassionally teach and only at the insistence of someone else, Im not over here actively seeking out students, I just play a lot and teach very little. Thats just my 2 cents from my very very very small amount of experience as a teacher.

[Phil Maturano]

I teach on a very rare basis and I would say I fall into th classification of "the bad." However, the only times I do any teaching are when someone asks me very sincerely and even then, I stress that, in all honesty, Im no expert, these are all things based on my very limited experiece as a player and student and by all means is not the be all and end all of music, so take it with a grain of salt. I find my biggest flaw to be impatience. I just cant deal with not practicing and lack of effort. Those are the two things that bug me the most and I suppose they coincide to some degree. I just find that I often times have trouble empathizing with someone who wont practice and is not motivated to be the best player they could possibly be because I was (am) never like that and I just cant put myself in their shoes. A lot of times I sit there and begin thinking this is not worth any amount of money in the world to endure this. If they want they can just rent out my practice room for 15 dollars a half hour, but if you want a lesson, please, PRACTICE! But like I said, the lessons I give are few and far in between and often end up with me giving the student the number of a teacher who I feel could benefit them to a greater scale.

The odd thing is, I have always felt a need to teach to some extent. Like I like to explain things to people. BUT, as I found out much to my chagrin as a teacher, I really only enjoy going over and explaining high level things (and not just technical, but musical ideas) that interest me as well. This is why I cant teach at this point in my life, and I STRESS at this point in my life. Right now I find that as a teenager I am fairly selfish. Let me rephrase that from the standpoint of my parents "VERY SELFISH." I am constantly rapt in thought about my playing, constantly thinking about weaknesses and how I could improve on them, and generally consumed on a very large scale. And, in this selfish mindset I find that I am not really willing to step back and think about someone elses real needs as a student. While theyre trying so hard to be able to gain some sort of independence on the instrument, for example, Im zoning out and thinking about metric modulations. Its hard for me to step back and let someone elses needs consume me to the same extent mine do.

I dont want to get jumped on for that post because I dont claim to be a teacher, I just occassionally teach and only at the insistence of someone else, Im not over here actively seeking out students, I just play a lot and teach very little. Thats just my 2 cents from my very very very small amount of experience as a teacher.

Dear britt...as odd as it may seem to you, those qualities are exactly the seeds which might make you a great teacher one day. When that day comes, just throw in a huge load of patience (mega size) and you will be great!

in the meantime you are doing the right thing. Concentrate on yourself, learn all you can, practice like there is no tomorrow, enjoy drumming.

Thanks for writing
PM

[brittc89]

Dear britt...as odd as it may seem to you, those qualities are exactly the seeds which might make you a great teacher one day. When that day comes, just throw in a huge load of patience (mega size) and you will be great!

in the meantime you are doing the right thing. Concentrate on yourself, learn all you can, practice like there is no tomorrow, enjoy drumming.

Thanks for writing
PM

Wow phil. Thanks. As odd as this might seem, that actually gave me a boost of self esteem knowing that I am not some horrible person who would never be able to seriously teach anyone and keep the craft alive. Thanks.

[Phil Maturano]

Wow phil. Thanks. As odd as this might seem, that actually gave me a boost of self esteem knowing that I am not some horrible person who would never be able to seriously teach anyone and keep the craft alive. Thanks.

Your obsession tells me that the instrument is in your blood. If it is as heavy as you say it is, then you will be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes one day and understand their burning desire. You have a respect for that desire judging by the things that you have written. I also dont take anyone on that is not serious. Apathy is not something i want to be around. It sounds like you don't like it either.

I think...the first sign that someone might make a good teacher is when they refuse to take on just any body. And will easily refer people to other people.

Nice post
PM

[Phil Maturano]

Holy smokes dude! we have the same B day! 12-27!

peace
PM

[tak22thegoat]

I can't believe your 13. If you are this wise and your mind is this developed at 13, the world better watch out. :)

It's funny you mentioned Tommy Igoe because Phil reminds me a lot of Tommy. If you could find the two in the same room, you could eaves drop on an interesting conversation. In the NY/ NJ area there is of course no shortage of good teachers; but I think the problem is the lack of drum set instruction that is available at the college level, and the lack of interest of American music in colleges. I think this is changing. I won't see it happen in my life time.

When I was your age, there were really two books that I used: Monster Book of Rock Drumming and Advanced Concepts for the Modern Drummer, and of course the Stone books for technique. I went through both set books and Chapin suggested going through his book open-handed, which I did with both. There weren't a lot of books on Jazz or Afro-Cuban drumming or technique the way there are today, so for years that was my education. could you imagine a world without Groove Essentials or The Art of Bop Drumming. I think that all this is changing, because of the materials now available, just not fast enough. Never mind the way the industry of music has changed over the last few years..

It's great that the masters are creating resources for drummers so they can learn extensively on a given subject. However, that doesn't mean that because we have so many resources that we will become better players. It's how you use it and practice it to become a better player. The problem is, the kids at my age aren't taught how to use the books creatively and efficiently. It's great that the teachers in the modern world use these books to teach, but they shouldn't rely on it heavily. For example, if a teacher gives exercises out of Stick Control, the teacher shouldn't have the student work on it just for time consumption, believing that the student is getting better. Also, WHY the student is given the exercises should also be stated.

The reason why I'm so critical is because I've been through loads of education in the 13 years I've been living. I've received fantastic education from kindergarten, and was introduced to a great teacher last year. I am currently going to a private school in Japan, and the school has opened up many doors in my mind. I've learned so much about current issues, education, how the mind works, etc. and has changed so much about how I think about drumming.

[Phil Maturano]

Hahaha , thats why he's smart. He goes to school in Japan not America!

[Deltadrummer]

So much for the great American educational system.

Pete, is right again, and I think this gets into what Phil has been saying about the master-student relationship and its importance in the study of music. I've never had a prolonged tutelage under a master. Actually, my closest call was Baba Olatunji asking me to join his group. I had played conga with a yoga group that I belonged to, and people always commented on my wild ass conga playing. I never knew any of the Afro-Cuban rhythms, but had studied tabla and knew to experiment with the sounds of the instrument. I just imitated what I had heard in Santana, Tito Puente and Eddie Palmieri recordings. I actually said no. One of the decisions you regret later on in your life when you are old enough to realize what you have done.:)

In my defense, I didn't come from a musical family and therefore, had no real sense of the value of these things.

Books are really important because, when done right, they can bring these concepts to a large groups of people. Pete you are right that they should only be used as a tool. One of the things I have come to realize is the importance that ritual plays in drumming. From time to time, I get students who come to me from the Pentacostal Church. Since they were nursing they have been listening to that music on mama's breast. They have such a clear understanding of playing in the pocket, one you just can't teach or get out of a book. But being under the spell of the master can bring you to new depths of understanding.

But books do expedite progress. They give us an added tool of communication. Music is an aural phenomenon afer all. Many students relate to it best as such, and because of issues of disability, may have trouble reading. Students who read very well, may have trouble with aural perception, which is key to memory. So that type of aural perception is key to master-student relationships.

I had a student who I believe was dyslexic, though I was never told so. He just could not read well, and after several lessons, he could not understand what a quarter note was. I told him that drumming was supposed to be taught aurally anyway, and he said that he wanted to learn it that way. I said well in those culture people stick with their teacher for twenty years before they master their instrument and that reading expedited that progress. Actually, he learned quite well aurally, and I could say this beat is boom, boom dat, boom dat, boom, dat boom, dat dat, and he would have it all ready the next week.

[brittc89]

Holy smokes dude! we have the same B day! 12-27!

peace
PM

Yeah! Thats awesome...

[mattsmith]

Dear britt...as odd as it may seem to you, those qualities are exactly the seeds which might make you a great teacher one day. When that day comes, just throw in a huge load of patience (mega size) and you will be great!

in the meantime you are doing the right thing. Concentrate on yourself, learn all you can, practice like there is no tomorrow, enjoy drumming.

Thanks for writing
PM

Britt's comments remind me of the quote my straight down the middle father says all time and it's someting he lives by like it's life and death. It also just cleared up for me exactly what he's been saying all this time.

You become a musician to become a protector of music.

The first time he ever told me that I thought it was the wierdest thing I had ever heard. But he lives by it and will quit or turn down what look like incredible jobs over it. He sees music almost like this living magic thing that you see in a Lord of the Rings movie, and that the whole music thing is a calling that can never be abused or dirtied up. To him a musician is a soldier who swears to guard the gate from anything bad happening. And he's always into reminding you what happens when you abuse music for something selfish that didn't have music's best interests in mind. When those Behind the Music shows used to come on VH1 he'd watch how the famous bands would get into music for the wrong reasons, then get messed up and lose everything, then turn around to me and say see. To him it was like this universal force had turned on those guys for doing the wrong thing.

My grandfather is a lot like Britt with the lessons too. If you don't want to work he'll drop you in a minute. His big saying is You work for music, it doesn't work for you. And both of these guys absolutely hate it when people say they want to play just to have fun or mess around, because to them that just breaks all those rules. Now interestingly enough it's not like you're music's slave or anything. In their way of thinking when you teach, if music is the #1 consideration above all things then everything else works itself out for the best. If people play music at their best, they learn good things about themselves that helps in all parts of their life. This makes them happier, and best of all the music's better.

See I don't get Britt's thinking he's selfish with the attitudes he describes. I think his values about wanting to make the music as good as possible is very unselfish. If he's working like a dog towards perfection he's not doing that for himself, he's doing it to protect music. I mean Britt is already a good enough player now that he could go with some sell out bands and make decent money. But instead he doesn't do that. Instead he woodsheds because music is more important to him than that other stuff.

I think that's something to admire and something important that should be taught.

[norgo]

I used to take guitar lessons in the past and nothing pissed me off more than a teacher who would just ask me what kind of songs I wanted to play. There was no focus on technique. Instead, just sitting down every lesson and asking what song I would like to play.

Usually I wouldn't mind that as he can observe my technique and tell me what I am doing wrong, but it also obviously shows that he never prepares homework for me or has anything for me to bring home to work on. All I ever did was attend my lessons and play cover songs.

I'll be taking drum lessons in a month after I save up. hopefully my drum teacher will be MUCH better than my underqualified guitar teacher.

[jeffwj]

I find my biggest flaw to be impatience. I just cant deal with not practicing and lack of effort. Those are the two things that bug me the most and I suppose they coincide to some degree. I just find that I often times have trouble empathizing with someone who wont practice and is not motivated to be the best player they could possibly be because I was (am) never like that and I just cant put myself in their shoes. A lot of times I sit there and begin thinking this is not worth any amount of money in the world to endure this. If they want they can just rent out my practice room for 15 dollars a half hour, but if you want a lesson, please, PRACTICE!

This is something that everyone deals with when they teach. I have been thinking about it recently because I have one or two students who haven't been making much progress. I can tell that they don't practice. The parents confirm what I already know by telling me that they barely touch a drum all week long. I never encourage the students to quit lessons, but I do feel an obligation to make it known to the parents that the students will not improve if they don't practice.

Also, my schedule has been filling up quickly. I keep thinking that there might come a time when I have to turn down new students who actually want to learn while I have two or more time slots booked up by students who are just "going through the motions."

[tak22thegoat]

Hahaha , thats why he's smart. He goes to school in Japan not America!



We need more teachers in Japan! There are no "good" teachers in Japan! If there are, I can't find them anywhere. I'm going to visit NJ/NY this August, so when I do, I hope to take a lesson with my first teacher + Tommy Igoe. Very excited.

I'm getting off topic here, I apologize. Please understand I'm still a kid. Back to the topic. Good educators create good players, but excellent educators create a virtuoso. I think the first thing a teacher must teach to kids is the importance of practicing, and HOW to practice. I must emphasize the "HOW" part. A teacher must also teach things that doesn't come from Stick Control, Master Studies, etc. A teacher must teach things like the emotional aspects of drumming, showmanship, creativity, musicianship, etc. Of course these things come packaged with experience.

[fourstringdrums]

Hahaha. I must say America's full of dumbasses. Just look at Bush! He's insane! And a new york governer got caught with hookers, what kind of government is that!

We didn't really need to go here.

[Deltadrummer]

[QUOTE=tak22thegoat;418842

I'm getting off topic here, I apologize. Please understand I'm still a kid. Back to the topic. Good educators create good players, but excellent educators create a virtuoso. I think the first thing a teacher must teach to kids is the importance of practicing, and HOW to practice. I must emphasize the "HOW" part. A teacher must also teach things that doesn't come from Stick Control, Master Studies, etc. A teacher must teach things like the emotional aspects of drumming, showmanship, creativity, musicianship, etc. Of course these things come packaged with experience.[/QUOTE]

I had a guy come into my store last night looking for cymbals. We had sold him a ddrum Diablo kit, which he hated. He got a little Gretsch bebop kit. I said there was nothing wrong with the diablo, for the price it's a good kit; it was under 400. He said, "I guess its not the arrow; it is the Indian."

There are some things that a teacher cannot teach. My role at the level I teach, is too grant students a foundation in Stone/Morello, Moeller/Chapin, styles, and yes interpretation is the most important: dynamics, how to use a fill or set up a jazz line. But there are things a teacher cannot teach, such as showmanship and virtuosity. Not every one is a Dennis Chambers, and not every one should be taught to be one. You have the find the right curriculum for each Indian.

I remember on Joe Morello's video he says, something to this effect, I'm going to teach you natural stick technique, not twirling sticks, and that nonsense. It doesn't sound well on a recording and will get you fired if you start to take the limelight away from the person in charge. There is a political dimension to playing music, and life in general, that is just as important as the music itself.

Good luck with Tommy. He is a 'no BS' teacher so be prepared. He will tell you the score without any filters. He's just the guy you're looking for.:)

[jeffwj]

I came across this online. It seems to have a good purpose, but I'm a bit confused at how it works.

http://www.professionaldrumteachersguild.com/

Jeff

[tak22thegoat]

I had a guy come into my store last night looking for cymbals. We had sold him a ddrum Diablo kit, which he hated. He got a little Gretsch bebop kit. I said there was nothing wrong with the diablo, for the price it's a good kit; it was under 400. He said, "I guess its not the arrow; it is the Indian."

There are some things that a teacher cannot teach. My role at the level I teach, is too grant students a foundation in Stone/Morello, Moeller/Chapin, styles, and yes interpretation is the most important: dynamics, how to use a fill or set up a jazz line. But there are things a teacher cannot teach, such as showmanship and virtuosity. Not every one is a Dennis Chambers, and not every one should be taught to be one. You have the find the right curriculum for each Indian.

I remember on Joe Morello's video he says, something to this effect, I'm going to teach you natural stick technique, not twirling sticks, and that nonsense. It doesn't sound well on a recording and will get you fired if you start to take the limelight away from the person in charge. There is a political dimension to playing music, and life in general, that is just as important as the music itself.

Good luck with Tommy. He is a 'no BS' teacher so be prepared. He will tell you the score without any filters. He's just the guy you're looking for.:)

Good point. Also about Tommy. He seems to be VERY strict. That makes a perfect teacher.
We didn't really need to go here.
I aplogize, I edited.