Freezing Up While Reading Sinmple Jazz Stuff

[joeybeats]

Is there a specific exercise for developing the ability to play the left hand without freezing up while reading, while using the 2&4 on the HH, feathering all quarter notes, and the standard jazz ride?

I thought I was ok as I learned the Igoe poster jazz section, but now that I'm trying to do Exercise 1 & 2 in syncopation, I realize I just memorized the Igoe stuff and really can't play what I read while using all four limbs. I can play with the HH, kick and left hand, but when I add the ride, I am just horrible and lock up. I need to get the three other than the left hand on auto-pilot. Any of you know a specific exercise for this? You think this is a reading issue or an independence issue? I think independence, but maybe not. Thanks. Joey

[AndrewGretsch]

Syncopation from what I recall starts out with having to learn controlled rebound and moeller to work through swung 8th notes and triplet patterns...I actually started with Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer. I'm just starting to get a feel for comping but I know where you're coming from.

The problem with Igoe is that he presents the patterns as "grooves" when what they're actually COMPING figures. The only "groove" that I've found in jazz would be the ride pattern and it's variations (this is debatable as you stray away from straight-ahead stuff however.) The bass drum and snare are meant to "compliment" the feel of a section of music or a soloist. Laying four on the floor (like Igoe presents) is just something written for beginners who don't have the independence to comp using all FOUR limbs. The first thing my teacher did with me was explain that there are certainly big band situations where four on the floor is fine, but that it's not a habit you want to depend on.

This has been working for me: Learning all the NON-MUSICAL but challenging exercises in Advanced Techniques, applying the techniques I get to simpler, more musical passages in The Art of Bop Drumming, and most importantly playing with other musicians and concentrating on making the music feel good and easy.

Also, you MUST listen to lots of jazz.

[joeybeats]

Thanks for that, Andrew. Syncopation says nothing about rebound strokes or moeller. Not one word that I've noticed. It is a series of reading and rythym exercises, starting with simple quarter notes, and then the usual, 8th and 16th notes, rests, triplets and so on. I've read here that it is one of the better reading skill books, so I bought it and I've enjoyed it as I teach myself. The syncopation half of the book is used in the Ramsey book as comping exercises, and that is where I am now.

Agree about the jazz portion of Igoes chart, it is comping and he talk about it as comping examples on the dvd. It certainly is for new players. The Reed stuff is just more advanced and longer, so I am having troubles playing the page long exercises. I am sticking with it.

Good point about the feathering on all 4 quarter notes, I will look around for some exercises that do not use four on the quarter notes. Perhaps the waltz in one or two. I am also practicing with the bass drum playing the line, so I do understand what you mean about comping with other limbs. Thanks again for your input. Joey

[percusboy]

[QUOTE=AndrewGretsch;415188

The problem with Igoe is that he presents the patterns as "grooves" when what they're actually COMPING figures. The only "groove" that I've found in jazz would be the ride pattern and it's variations (this is debatable as you stray away from straight-ahead stuff however.) The bass drum and snare are meant to "compliment" the feel of a section of music or a soloist. Laying four on the floor (like Igoe presents) is just something written for beginners who don't have the independence to comp using all FOUR limbs. The first thing my teacher did with me was explain that there are certainly big band situations where four on the floor is fine, but that it's not a habit you want to depend on.

Also, you MUST listen to lots of jazz.[/QUOTE]


For anyone who knows anything about the history of jazz, this is simply bad information. First off, it's called "feathering", four on the floor is truly a misrepresentation implying it's played loudly, like a rock drummer.

The myth that modern jazz masters, like Tony Williams did NOT feather is wrong, and he SAID so himself in many many interviews and in clinics which I personally attended. He demonstrated when he was NOT comping, he was feathering and said it was essential to his sound and that it was played so softly that the definition of the quarters was only felt, not heard.

The truth of the matter is, all great jazz masters can feather the bass drum, and choose to do so depending on the situation.The silly notion that only only guys who don't have good four way independence choose to feather is arrogant and plain wrong.

Feathering with control, grace and accuracy is one of the most difficult things to master in jazz drumming. You can use it in everything from a trio to a big band, all depending on the music, the environment and how well and tastefully you apply it.

When I was a jazz performance major in college, all the young self-proclaimed "hip" guys were running around screaming about how you 'CAN'T FEATHER', "Tony NEVER feathered!". And then Tony comes out with like, "of course I feather... ". Very funny. It was like they just found out there was no Santa Claus.

In Tommy Igoe's wonderful book, he practically fell over himself explaining that they were indeed not individual "grooves" but comping figures for beginners to get under their hands and were only called grooves for the sake of thematic continuity and he correctly refers to the practice as "feathering", not four on the floor.

[macmonkey]

I've had about 10 drum teachers in my life and every-one of them had me working this book:

http://www.drummerworld.com/shop/Jim_Chapin.html

It's Jim Chapin's "Advanced Techniques.."

Inside it's got nearly every left hand pattern over top of a simple swing pattern including dynamics. I could probably play this book from memory all the way through as it's been engrained in my brain.

I can certainly promise that if you spend some time with it you will have no problem working your left hand on top of a swing.

jw

[joeybeats]

For anyone who knows anything about the history of jazz, this is simply bad information. First off, it's called "feathering", four on the floor is truly a misrepresentation implying it's played loudly, like a rock drummer.

The myth that modern jazz masters, like Tony Williams did NOT feather is wrong, and he SAID so himself in many many interviews and in clinics which I personally attended. He demonstrated when he was NOT comping, he was feathering and said it was essential to his sound and that it was played so softly that the definition of the quarters was only felt, not heard.

The truth of the matter is, all great jazz masters can feather the bass drum, and choose to do so depending on the situation.The silly notion that only only guys who don't have good four way independence choose to feather is arrogant and plain wrong.

Feathering with control, grace and accuracy is one of the most difficult things to master in jazz drumming. You can use it in everything from a trio to a big band, all depending on the music, the environment and how well and tastefully you apply it.

When I was a jazz performance major in college, all the young self-proclaimed "hip" guys were running around screaming about how you 'CAN'T FEATHER', "Tony NEVER feathered!". And then Tony comes out with like, "of course I feather... ". Very funny. It was like they just found out there was no Santa Claus.

In Tommy Igoe's wonderful book, he practically fell over himself explaining that they were indeed not individual "grooves" but comping figures for beginners to get under their hands and were only called grooves for the sake of thematic continuity and he correctly refers to the practice as "feathering", not four on the floor.


Thanks for the reply, percusboy. I agree with you, was just a bit more gentle in my reply to Andrew. Reference the Igoe materials, IMO, there is nothing better for a guy who is sitting in front of a first set he just brought home, wondering, "What is this, what have I gotten myself into, and where do I start?!" than the Igoe material. I took me from absolute ground zero, to a birds-eye view and understanding of some of the more popular genres, from a drummers perspective. In short, it had me up and immediately running. And, it made drumming fun and interesting for a newbie. (I do understand that many of you started with other material, but as an adult beginner, it worked well for me.)


I've had about 10 drum teachers in my life and every-one of them had me working this book:

http://www.drummerworld.com/shop/Jim_Chapin.html

It's Jim Chapin's "Advanced Techniques.."

Inside it's got nearly every left hand pattern over top of a simple swing pattern including dynamics. I could probably play this book from memory all the way through as it's been engrained in my brain.

I can certainly promise that if you spend some time with it you will have no problem working your left hand on top of a swing.

jw

Thanks,macboy. Not surprised to hear that all/most/many of the teachers use the Chapin book, the "original book that revolutionized drumming." Obviously, few, if any, have replaced its import to the drumming community. The book was published in 1948, and at least at the time mine was printed, 2005, is now in its 62nd printing! I pulled it off the shelf after reading your post. I will start up with it again today.

For your info, as a new drummer, I went out and bought quite a few off the suggested reading list here at the forum. The only issue that prevented me (and probably others) from working with this book early on was the fact that it is, as the name implies, somewhat Advanced, particularly for a player starting from ground zero. I found that my reading skills were not sufficient early on to make the book useful at the time. While I had some basic understanding of 8th's, 16th's and rests from piano studies, I didn't have a proper background in drummer 101 to actually start with it. (It was for this very reason that I found the Ted Reed Syncopation, published in 1958, so useful ... it dedicates half the book to beginner reading skills. However, now that I have progressed to the higher beginner levels, I see from today's revisit that I am good to go. Thanks much for the reminder. Joey

[Class A Drummer]

I would suggest buying "Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer" by Jim Chaping. It got my left hand really independent for jazz. I feel i can read charts and hit the left hand kicks pretty easily because of that book.(most of the time).

[joeybeats]

Off topic, but I can hijack my own thread.

I just went the iTunes program on my computer to listen to the cd that accompanies the Chapin book ... thought I'd listen as I read along, before I jumped in. Typed in "Chapin" in the iTunes search bar to go directly to the "Chapin" list and was sadly reminded of the horrible tragedy that visited the Chapin family in 1981 as my Chapin list starts with songs by Harry. .

Jim's son Harry was a brilliant singer songwriter and socially aware man who enjoyed huge success when I was younger. Many of you here know what I speak of. For you younger players, here are a couple of links that offer some info pertaining to Jim's son, Harry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Chapin
http://harrychapinmusic.com/chapin_site2/home/chapinhp_frm.html
Joey

*Edit - Just listened to Taxi again for the first time in a long time. What beautiful story in a fabulous song. And, tasty drumming behind him. (I wonder ...) I'll practice later, gonna go listen to the entire Harry Chapin collection. RIP