Pitch and percussion

[extra-solar]

can you produce a chromatic scale on a cymbal or drum or non-musical instrument by how soft or hard you hit the object?

[Class A Drummer]

i dont know if force of the strike on the cymbal will do anything, but dampening it with your hands little by little might give you a chromatic scale of some type.

[Styx]

In my opinion you can't. whether you hit a rock or piece of wood or whatever soft or hard it's going to give you the same sound just louder or softer,but you can change the pitch of your tom per say if you were to apply pressure to the drum head using your stick or elbow or whatever and tapping the head, then you'll change the pitch. Toms can also be tuned to a scale too.

[Big_Philly]

can you produce a chromatic scale on a cymbal or drum or non-musical instrument by how soft or hard you hit the object?

No, not by how hard you hit it. Hitting it real hard will probably cause a pitch bend but the pitch will bend back to the natural pitch.
But like Styx said: you can tune your toms chromatically. Terry Bozzio does that.

[Wavelength]

Each object that has resonance to it (cymbals, drums, blocks of wood, taut strings...) will produce the entire harmonic sequence. However, generally these overtones are either very subdued apart from the fundamental note or very strong on the whole spectrum, so it's practically impossible to isolate each and every overtone (which will become the chromatic scale in a non-linear sequence). If you try to scrape a cymbal with the tip of the stick (the stick being at a 90 degree angle to the cymbal), you can generally produce a clear fifth and an octave of the cymbal's fundamental note by changing the tip's distance from the bell. Changing the strength of the stike doesn't affect the pitch all that much -- you need to activate or deactivate certain nodes of the object to produce the harmonics (or notes of the overtone sequence).

[DestinationDrumming]

Hi Extra-Solar,

There is an Indian/African drum (Hudak) that is held under the arm and by squeezing and pulling you can change the pitch. The squeezing motion just changes the pitch of the head and hence gives chromatic tones you can control with practice. It doesn't depend on how hard you hit it though.

Have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aso0r4Zq-F4&feature=related

at 3.37 he plays 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' and at 4.18 'Jingle Bells' !

[Big_Philly]

Hi Extra-Solar,

There is an Indian/African drum (Hudak) that is held under the arm and by squeezing and pulling you can change the pitch. The squeezing motion just changes the pitch of the head and hence gives chromatic tones you can control with practice. It doesn't depend on how hard you hit it though.

Have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aso0r4Zq-F4&feature=related

at 3.37 he plays 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' and at 4.18 'Jingle Bells' !

I want one of those!!

[Wavelength]

can you produce a chromatic scale on a cymbal or drum or non-musical instrument by how soft or hard you hit the object?

As a side note: why do you think that a drum or a cymbal isn't a musical instrument? I mean, they are man-made objects that were specifically built for playing music.

[mandion]

I've seen some wacky jazz dudes press their elbow into a tom to alter the pitch. That was interesting, though not especially great sounding, IMO.

[PQleyR]

As a side note: why do you think that a drum or a cymbal isn't a musical instrument? I mean, they are man-made objects that were specifically built for playing music.

I don't imagine extra-solar was arguing that they aren't musical instruments. If that had been their intention then it would have been an odd question to ask, especially on a drumming forum.

[MikeyOdrums]

Also you can cup your hand in the middle of a drum and hit it then move it to the edge of the drum creating a very distinctive difference in pitch. for example check the middle of my solo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sKCvFcX-QA
mikey o

[JoePorter]

Crotales, and cymbal disk's are tuned to exact pitches. Also you can tune drums in whatever interval you want. The talking drums are essentially used for a high sound and low sound. With Timpani you can play chromatic runs easily.

[brittc89]

I've seen some wacky jazz dudes press their elbow into a tom to alter the pitch. That was interesting, though not especially great sounding, IMO.

Sorry man, but you need to watch ari hoenig and seriously rethink that statement about not particularly great sounding. The tune is Oleo by the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-0wfYNmjh4

[millerdakiller]

the first thing you need to understand to understand why you can't alter the pitch of something by hitting it harder or softer, is to understand what pitch is. Pitch is the sound of a specific vibration as our human ear hears it.different pitches are different vibrations...

i.e.
the standard orchestral tuning note is A 440 (A below middle C)
The 440 refers to the number of times the object producing the pitch vibrates per minute.
The A an octave above would be 880. The note E a fifth above A 440 would be sounded if the object vibrated at the rate of about 733, or 2/3 above the original pitch of a 440. Each pitch has its own individual rate of vibration.

A ~ 440
Bb ~ 476.67
B ~ 513.34
C ~ 550
Db ~ 586.67
D ~ 623.34
Eb ~ 660
E ~ 696.61
F ~ 733.34
Gb ~ 770
G ~ 806.67
Ab ~ 843.34
A ~ 880

Now that you have an understanding of what pitch is you can learn how to change it. There are three major ways to change the pitch of an object. Changing the Tension, the length, and the density. The first, tension, has the most to do with drumming. To get a higher pitch, you increase the tension of the object that is vibrating. An example of this would be taking a rubber band and stretching it to about 9 inches in length then plucking it. If you then stretch it to a length of 12 inches, you will notice that the pitch has increased. This is because the tension of the rubberband has increased (note this is not the same thing as changing the length, even though changing the length at which you hold the rubber band was part of the demonstration. that was just the simplest way to illustrate increased tension). The next way, increasing the length of an object. An example of this would be to take a length of string and hold it taught between your hands. If you pluck the String it will have a certain pitch. If you then grab the string with one of your hands at half of the distance that you were originally holding the string, you will notice the pitch has increased. The final way to change pitch is to change the density of an object. Now obviously you can't change the density of an object, but you can however, have two objects with different densitys. The object with the denser mass will have a higher pitch while the object with less density will have a lower pitch. That is why if you strike a piece of wood with a drumstick it has a click sound and if you strike a piece of metal with a drumstick it has a ping sound.

So how does all this apply to drumming?

Well different size and density shells and cymbals will have accordingly different pitches, however you cannot alter the pitches of shells or cymbals (i'll explain why in a minute), excepting of course if you cut the cymbal or shell to reduce its size, increasing its pitch. You can however change the pitch of a drum by increasing the tension of the head that you place on the drum, this is primarily done during the tuning process, with the exceptions being tympanis or other drums designed to change head tension during play, and the elbow trick that has been mentioned a few times in this thread.

Now, the reason why increasing the force that you exert on a drum will not change the pitch. By exerting more force in your stroke, all you are doing is increasing the width of the drum, or cymbals vibration. Think of the drum as a pool of water. If you drop a baseball into the water, you will create waves. this is analogus to hitting a drum softly with a drumstick, excepting that you create soundwaves instead of waves in the water. If you were to drop a steel ball the size of a baseball into the water, you would notice that the waves would increase in side, yet they would not increase or decrease in the distance between them. All this to say, that hitting a drum harder merely increases the size(volume) of the soundwaves.

I hope this has been helpful for everyone, cause this is sort of an area of expertise of mine.

[extra-solar]

Wow! Thanks for the amazing response(s) to this question.

Anyways, so to clarify, lets make an example.

Let's say we have a cymbal tuned to an A at 440 vps. So when you hit it soft 440, medium its still at 440 and when you hit it forcefully it still stays at 440.

So, maybe it produces octaves? Also, wouldn't specific volumes be at their own individual pitches?

By the way this forum is the best! Also when I said non-musical instrument I meant things like a vacuum of table top or etc.

[extra-solar]

Oops vpm not vps.

Extra-solar

[DestinationDrumming]

Let's say we have a cymbal tuned to an A at 440 vps. So when you hit it soft 440, medium its still at 440 and when you hit it forcefully it still stays at 440.

So, maybe it produces octaves? Also, wouldn't specific volumes be at their own individual pitches?

By the way this forum is the best! Also when I said non-musical instrument I meant things like a vacuum of table top or etc.

Yes, you're right. It will still have a frequency of 440vpm The amplitude of those cycles will change depending on how hard you hit the cymbal i.e. the wave form will be bigger....but there will still be 440vpm.

Vacuum cleaners and table tops will also have a vpm so when you hit them....(don't do this at home especially if the vacuum and table do not belong to you or if your Wife is watching!)....they will also resonate and at the same frequency but because they are not designed to hold the resonation for a long time it will die out quite quickly resulting in a thud! The materials the vacuum and table top are made of will also affect the vibrations and decay.

I need a lie down, can't believe I'm writing this twaddle!

[millerdakiller]

Wow! Thanks for the amazing response(s) to this question.

Anyways, so to clarify, lets make an example.

Let's say we have a cymbal tuned to an A at 440 vps. So when you hit it soft 440, medium its still at 440 and when you hit it forcefully it still stays at 440.

So, maybe it produces octaves? Also, wouldn't specific volumes be at their own individual pitches?

By the way this forum is the best! Also when I said non-musical instrument I meant things like a vacuum of table top or etc.

you can have octave or fifths as overtones, which is not the true pitch of the object. Only very resonant objects (like some cymbals, not all, guitar strings have very pronounced harmonics) will have these overtones. This is an entirely different can of worms though. if you want me to explain the overtone series, i can, but its even more complicated then your original question.

to answer your second question

No specific volumes would not have thier own pitch. Pitch is the rate at which something vibrates, volume is the intensity of those vibrations.

[DestinationDrumming]

This is an entirely different can of worms though. if you want me to explain the overtone series, i can, but its even more complicated then your original question.

Ooh yes please ;o)......

[millerdakiller]

Ooh yes please ;o)......

sorry man. I'm not really in the mood to spew off a whole 'nother epic post like that. They only add one to my post count and they take ten times longer to type then anything else i write on this forum(jk, the postcount has nothing to do with it, i'm just really tired at the moment).

I will however refer you to wikipedia. feel free to pm me with any questions about what's in the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone

I'll also highlight some important things about overtones that are mentioned in this article, and provide some insight.


An overtone is a natural resonance or vibration frequency of a system. Systems described by overtones are often sound systems, for example, blown pipes or plucked strings. If such a system is excited, a number of sound frequencies may be produced. These frequencies, are usually, but not always, a close approximation to an integer multiple of a lowest resonance frequency

The Overtone series generally runs in fifths. Which means if you started on C, the overtone series would run like this.

C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#(F),B#(C)

i listed it as all sharps with thier natural equivalents in parenthesis because the overtone series is relative only to the notes below it, so it should be notated according to the note it is relative to.

the first overtone of a circular drum is approximately 2.4 times its fundamental resonance frequency.

I disagree with this. In my experience the first overtone that appear on a drum would be the perfect fifth(1.67 times the fundamental pitch), possibly followed by the major tenth(about 2.4 as they have listed.). Don't ask me why, this is something i still fail to completely understand. it has something to do with the fact that a major tenth is equivelent to a major third and as a result, the fundamental tone, the fifth and the major tenth form a major triad.


The Overtone Series is something that is incredibly complex if you really delve into it. But unless you are an instrument maker, or are setting up guitars, it's not something that you neccesarilly need to understand, especially to play drums. But I definately encourage anyone who wants to learn more about it to investigate for themselves or pm me with questions, you can never know too much about music.

peace

haha that post was a lot longer then i expected, or bargained for. lol

p.s. I should get credit for two posts for each of these epic posts i've written.

hahaha

jk lol

[cnw60]

Wow! Thanks for the amazing response(s) to this question.

Anyways, so to clarify, lets make an example.

Let's say we have a cymbal tuned to an A at 440 vps. So when you hit it soft 440, medium its still at 440 and when you hit it forcefully it still stays at 440.

So, maybe it produces octaves? Also, wouldn't specific volumes be at their own individual pitches?.

the wave/response of cymbals is generally too complex to be considered a note IMO. there is a fundamental tone underlying the sound of any cymbal - but the thing that makes them so unique and interesting is the wash of harmonics that plays a strong role in determining the character of the sound produced by most cymbals.

Several variables, including the complex shape and the lathing and/or hammering that is done during the making of the cymbal are all done to break up the 'purity' of the sound waves created when it is struck.

Just compare the sound of a bell or a chime to the sound of a cymbal and you'll see just how far from a pure musical note is being produced.

[millerdakiller]

the wave/response of cymbals is generally too complex to be considered a note IMO. there is a fundamental tone underlying the sound of any cymbal - but the thing that makes them so unique and interesting is the wash of harmonics that plays a strong role in determining the character of the sound produced by most cymbals.

Several variables, including the complex shape and the lathing and/or hammering that is done during the making of the cymbal are all done to break up the 'purity' of the sound waves created when it is struck.

Just compare the sound of a bell or a chime to the sound of a cymbal and you'll see just how far from a pure musical note is being produced.


if you ride a cymbal as apposed to crashing it you can hear the fundamental pitch. It's not as clear as the other examples you offered but it's definately there. Everything that vibrates has a fundamental pitch.

[cnw60]

if you ride a cymbal as apposed to crashing it you can hear the fundamental pitch. It's not as clear as the other examples you offered but it's definately there. Everything that vibrates has a fundamental pitch.

Yes - there is a fundamental pitch underlying the sound, but my point is more about what you find when a cymbal's sound is analyzed, (i.e. - say you wanted to synthesize that sound) as described in this article (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jun02/articles/synthsecrets0602.asp).

After their analysis, the description of a cymbal's sound was, 'a dense fog of enharmonic partials,...not dominated by any particular modes'. Graphically it looks like this (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jun02/images/fig01development.gif).

In fact - when the first attempts to synthesize cymbal sounds were made - the most successful (realistic) sounds resulted from modifying white noise, and not from layering up different tonal patterns.

The article also supports your point about the sound spectrum becoming more chaotic when a cymbal is struck harder, but the difference between hitting hard or soft is not really about tonality vs chaos, but really just more or less chaos.

anyway - back to the question posed by original poster - this material does not support the idea that it's possible to produce something like a chromatic scale on a cymbal just by varying how hard you hit it.