The lowdown on vintage ludwigs

[iamtak]

I feel like vintage Ludwig drums are a constant topic of discussion here, but I've searched and couldn't find the information I'm looking for. I should probably just PM LVCD, but I'll ask here.

What are the differences between the drums badged with the Blue/Olive badges and the Keystones?

I gather that keystones are older, somewhere in the mid 70's they became Blue/Olive drums, and somewhere along the line drums with three maple plys and a reinforcement ring became six ply maple drums. Is that right? Since then keystone badges have gone back into production, are B/O still made?

Are either Keystone or B/O more sought after? Are there differences in model between drums of the same badge?

What else should I know about these drums?

[aydee]

PM the resident DW Ludwig encyclopedia, Harry Conway.

[harryconway]

My ears are burning again. Ludwig fun. Much of it just gets "how AR" are you? The Keystone badge was used up to around 1969. The 70's brought in the blue/olive badge (sharp corners), but the "still fabulous" 3 ply shell was used. One might ask, do people want the badge or the shell? Around 1976, the 6 ply shell showed up. The badge remained the same. Somewhere in the early 80's, the blue/olive badge got rounded corners. The "modern" badge is a larger version of the Keystone design, usually called the "Monroe". The re-issue kits come, or can be ordered with, re-issue badges. "Why or what else do you need to know about these drums?" I guess that all depends on if you plan on buying a "vintage" set. And if you want a "players" kit or a "collectors". The more info. you are armed with, the less chance of making a "bad" purchase.

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

Somewhere in the early 80's, the blue/olive badge got rounded corners.

Since the pointed / rounded corner Badge breakpoint is an excellent "quick & dirty" way to help dial in when a Kit, or Drum, may have been "born" I would like to tweak the above statement to bring it closer to the facts. I have a 1979 Ludwig Big Beat Outfit with rounded corner Badges, which is the first year I would safely say that they showed up, although the possibility does exist that Ludwig did use both styles during the same time frame for a short period.............

LVDC

[harryconway]

... pointed / rounded corner Badge breakpoint is ... "quick & dirty" ... may have been "born" I would like to tweak ...I have a 1979 Ludwig Big Beat Outfit with rounded corner Badges, which is the first year I would safely say that they showed up.... Ludwig did use both styles during the same time frame for a short period.............

LVDC
And indeed, for both you and I have seen far to many exceptions to any rule regarding Ludwig. I special ordered two 22x16 clear virgin Vistalite kicks and a stainless steel 14x10 marching super sensitive snare in 1980 and all 3 drums came with pointy corner badges.

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

....indeed....far to many exceptions.....ordered two 22x16 Vistalite kicks and a stainless steel 14x10 marching super sensitive.......all 3 drums came with badges.

I hear ya Harry!

LVDC

[Mr. Brownstone]

I'm trying to gather a little more knowledge myself regarding Ludwigs, Supras in particular.

Where would a Supar with a serial of #3385567 be dated? Is there a specific number that determines the era?

Thanks for any help.

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

Mr.B, have you checked for a date stamp on the inside of the Shell? They can easily get wiped off so you may have to look closely if one isn’t obviously visible, many times they will still be there, and readable, if you look for it in good light……..

I rarely use the serial number method for trying to determine when a Drum may have been manufactured, so I can't help you there, relying more on build characteristics, which can be problematic due to the fact that things could have been swapped out over the years. One thing that readily comes to mind are the “Chrome Face” P85 Throw-offs, which, when compared to the older “Black Face” P85’s, have a tendency to break. The newer P85’s use a molded die cast section in the linkage and this is where they tend to fail if put under a lot of tension……………

Here is the link to a previous thread about the Acrolite that may help a little since the some of the information also applies to the Supra Phonic..........

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30000

LVDC

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

iamtak, to address your original question, here is some of the “lowdown” on what you could expect to find when looking at vintage Ludwig’s. Since things start getting a little more complicated in the early 1980’s with the re-introduction of the Standard Line (6-ply Bass & 4-ply Toms,) which quickly morphed into the Rocker / Rocker II Line, I’ll try to cover from 1960 up until 1980. Since I’m doing this off the top of my head and not consulting my notes please don’t hold me too closely to the facts, this is just a “rough guideline” that only covers the basics……….

Around 1961 Ludwig started using the white, “Reso Cote” interior finish (clear interiors prior) on most of their Drums (with the exception of some of the larger Floor Toms,) which they continued to use up until 1968. During this same time-frame you could expect to find Toms with Mahogany / Poplar & Bass Drums with Maple / Poplar 3-ply Shells & Rock Maple re-rings. However, as the 1960’s progressed, Ludwig had a tendency to use Maple in lieu of Mahogany on the Toms and by 1968 had pretty much switched over to the Maple / Poplar combo on all but some of their larger Drums, which still could be found with Mahogany / Poplar Shells right up into the 1970’s.

In 1968 Ludwig introduced the entry level Standard Line (own Badge style) that utilized the regular Classic 3-ply Shells but received a grey speckled, “Granitone,” interior finish while their regular line switched over to clear lacquer interiors. As time progressed from around mid-68 on into the 70’s more & more of their Drums received the Granitone interior paint with most, if not all, getting this interior finish by the time they switched over to their new 6-ply Maple / Poplar Shells (no re-rings) manufactured using the “Uni-Mold” method of construction in 1976. The new Uni-Mold 6-ply Shells received a clear interior finish up until the early 1980’s when, as mentioned previously, things started getting a little more complicated when the Standard Line was re-introduced around 1982. To make things even more complicated, at least for a very short period of time in the early 80’s, the new Standards utilized regular Lugs & sported Blue & Olive Badges whereas the earlier Standards (1968-1972) had their own style of Badges & Lugs but have been found with regular Lugs as well, which may have been due to a parts shortage at the Factory but that’s just a guess on my part………..

Even after 1976 Ludwig offered, for a short period of time, Outfits that utilized their old 3-ply Shells known as the “Combo” line which had their own Badge style & used very inexpensive, plastic, Lugs. It is my understanding that these were offered to clear their inventory of the remaining 3-ply Shells in stock, which makes sense considering that while these were a entry level line they still had 10 Lugs per side on their Bass Drums which would normally only have 8 per side. They probably had been drilled prior to the switch to the 6-ply Shells so they had no choice if they wanted to “get rid of them.”
The Combo I shown below in the 1978 Catalog, the Combo II added a 9 x 13 and used a regular Ludwig double Tom Post on the Bass. Note method (S Hooks) used so Bass Hoop could be used without a front / reso head, another thing that leads me to believe these Shells had been drilled prior to the 1976 change-over...........

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL770/2917504/19049440/304115563.jpg

Even though this is just a brief overview on the subject it should give you some idea of the differences you may encounter when looking at Vintage Ludwig's........

LVDC

[KarlCrafton]

Man, that kit was still in the 1980 catalog!
OMG, I LOVED looking at that catalog.....that maple Octa-Plus...and the Stainless Steel....Engraved Black Beauty! Ahhhhh!

Sorry :P

I still have a 14X24 kick in Black Cortex (which has been re-introduced), B/O badge (pointed edges).
It had (had, oops, my bad) a clear interior, with re-rings.
The seam on the interior ply was not real flush either.

It also had the small curved spurs.

I always wondered what year(s) it could have been from.

I can't believe I painted the inside Black.....the bungling of youth.....

[ludwigvondrumcrazy]

I still have a 14X24 kick in Black Cortex (which has been re-introduced), B/O badge (pointed edges).
It had (had, oops, my bad) a clear interior, with re-rings.
The seam on the interior ply was not real flush either.

It also had the small curved spurs.

I always wondered what year(s) it could have been from.

Karl, if the Black Cortex was the original wrap then I would guess that it dates from right around 1973-74, possibly 1975, with the earliest year in that bunch the most likely year..........

Did the interior ply, before you, well, uummm, refinished it, look like Maple?

LVDC

[Blue Note]

Hello Ludwigvondrumcrazy,

I'm wondering why you refuse to answer my e-mails?
If I've said something wrong, please tell me and we could solve the misunderstanding.
I'd like to keep you as a nice overseas friend and exchange ideas about drum restauration.

Koen, Belgium