New Supraphonics easily get out of tune

[scovit]

It figures with the only new snare I have, the renowned Ludwig Supraphonic, (this one is COB), knocks out of tune easily. Has anyone with new COB or Alloy Supraphoncs experienced this? I had the same problem with the alloy Supra that I recently sold.

My suspicion is that it is due to those nylon washers that ship with the drum. I realize that they may cut down on metal to metal contact and possibly avoid "rattles" for loosely tuned drums, (I personally keep my snares on the tighter side), but I think having to constantly tune up this drum is annoying and in fact degrades the quality and stature of this drum, at least to me.

It appears that many of the new drum mfg's are shipping their snares with these. Okay, I'm game. Maybe its something else?

Thoughts?

[Wavelength]

You should try lubing the tuning screws with viscous oil.

[Michael G]

It figures with the only new snare I have, the renowned Ludwig Supraphonic, (this one is COB), knocks out of tune easily. Has anyone with new COB or Alloy Supraphoncs experienced this? I had the same problem with the alloy Supra that I recently sold.

My suspicion is that it is due to those nylon washers that ship with the drum. I realize that they may cut down on metal to metal contact and possibly avoid "rattles" for loosely tuned drums, (I personally keep my snares on the tighter side), but I think having to constantly tune up this drum is annoying and in fact degrades the quality and stature of this drum, at least to me.

It appears that many of the new drum mfg's are shipping their snares with these. Okay, I'm game. Maybe its something else?

Thoughts?

It isn't limited to just new ones, mine comes out of tune easily as well. I have no idea what the problem is, I play 10 rim shots and boom it starts sound off.

[scovit]

The lug nuts are already lubbed unless by viscous oil you mean grease? I personally don't think that'll work.

[jking]

If the problem is the lugs backing off, lubricating them will not solve the problem - it will actually make it worse. We're talking about a small bolt. When bolts are well lubricated, they move easier.

Not sure what will solve the problem, but, lubing the lugs won't help.

[bodinski]

The nylon washers should help keep the lugs from backing out. If they aren't enough, pick up a pack of lock washers at the hardware store for about a buck.
Luck - bodinski

[scovit]

Lock washers make sense. I think everyone can agree Ludwig Supras have been the most widely used and recognized snare model over the last 60 years. So why would Ludwig allow these drums out on the market to de-tune so easily?

People rave about the distinctive tone from these drums. Maybe enough people are complaining this issue. Sure lock washers are the answer, but I don't see a mfg retrofit, nor do I think this is a problem for other drum companies.

To me having accumulated some excellent vintage equipment over the years, buying lock washers in Home Depot de-values what would otherwise be a pretty excellent drum.

One other peeve I have about these new Supras. Supra snares are now made in Taiwan, (sticker attached) and not in Monroe USA. Personally, I like to know that my drum is 100% USA made or if not, let the consumer know that some parts are made overseas, just like the car companies are required to state on their sticker. I don't think it matters but it matters if you know what I mean. Welcome to the global economy I guess.

[Rickk]

What heads are you using? if the heads are moving it can get out of tune, which is why I switched to aquarian in the first place they have a bearing edge that wraps onto the edge and keeps from slipping. I have a Black Beauty and it stays in tune, I also just purchased a vintage 70's Supraphonic, I will get the heads changed when it arrives and try it out.

Rick

[scovit]

Ludwig Weather Master stock, Remo Ambassador, both vintage and new, Evans G1, I even have an Aquarian I could try, but I don't think that seems to matter. I don't want to stifle the response by using a head that dampens the tone.

If your theory is correct that would mean every snare would be knocked out of tune regardless of the brand because of the head,

Interesting, I wanted to verify what the composition of the triple flanged hoops were. To my disappointment the hoops are NOT brass though the shell definitely is. The old magnet trick stuck to the hoops and not the shell. Aside from this possible variable.....and don't know what this means but......

Why shouldn't the Supras stay in tune? I have 6 snares and if I tune them up once a week, that a lot!

[Rickk]

My suggestion:
Try an Aquarian TC coated which compares to the Remo and wont dampen at all, but dont forget the snare side head put an Aquarian clear snare side on and see if it makes a difference.
The Aquarian Heads are not form fitted so they actually adjust to the bearing edge like a guitar string does, it streches over it and does not move.
If its not the heads then I cant think of anything else unless it's out of round.
I sure some of the experts here may have some more suggestions, but I personally speak from experience.

Hope that helps
Rick

[Michael G]

I use Aquarian heads and no it doesn't fix the problem.

[DrunkenGarbageCan]

Could it be sloppy tolerances with the bolts and lugs? Maybe the new Supra's just have looser tolerances (I hate saying this - cheaper components and less quality control than in the old days). Likewise, is it possible that the older 30-40 year old Supra's bolts/lugs are just getting worn out from normal wear and tear and creating a looser fit that vibrates apart easier?

I am going to sound like a grease monkey, but why not try a small drop of non hardening Loc Tite or that liquid type teflon for pipes?

[Steady Freddy]

This is really very common. Here's a product called Lug Locks. It's a cheap and easy fix.

[Mendozart]

This is what I use on the rimshot areas, which seem to be the only problematic areas on mine.
http://www.tightscrew.com/

[Michael G]

This is what I use on the rimshot areas, which seem to be the only problematic areas on mine.
http://www.tightscrew.com/

yours is a 14 x 5 right? What size did you order?

[Mendozart]

yours is a 14 x 5 right? What size did you order?

Actually, I own a late 70's early 80's 402 model. The guys over at WestCoast Drums gave them to me to try out. They used me as a guinea pig to see if they wanted to carry them at their shop. I gave them a big thumbs up!

[Wavelength]

If the problem is the lugs backing off, lubricating them will not solve the problem - it will actually make it worse. We're talking about a small bolt. When bolts are well lubricated, they move easier.

The point was that the tuning screws might be pre-lubricated with something not quite as sticky as viscous oil. Viscous oil lubes the threads (you want them to turn easily when you want them to) but still keeps the tuning in place.

[Rickk]

So I guess you guy's are saying the reason it is getting out of tune is because the bolts are loosening up? I guess I misunderstood.
I did have a similier problem on my Ludwig and DW sets, but it turned out being the heads, after changing them I dont have to retune unless I want a different tone. I have a Ludwig Black Beauty and it stay's in perfect tune all the time, I should be recieving my Supraphonic 400this week and I will see what happens.
Thanks

Rick

[gmrakich]

This is really very common. Here's a product called Lug Locks. It's a cheap and easy fix.

These are great.....I have a new DW edge that requires a few of the little lug locks and it solved the issues I was having. Most of my snares have at least one Lug Lock.

[jking]

The point was that the tuning screws might be pre-lubricated with something not quite as sticky as viscous oil. Viscous oil lubes the threads (you want them to turn easily when you want them to) but still keeps the tuning in place.

Sorry, it appears I misunderstood what you meant. When I saw the term "oil" I automatically thought of something pretty fluid.

[scovit]

What I do notice on the new Supras is that the bolts are pre-lubed and that they in fact turn easy, almost without resistance. My first thought was this was because of the nylon washers, and nothing else. I don't think it has anything to do with tolerances. The bolts on all my other snares do not turn so easily. In fact, there's enough resistance that they almost click, when using a drum key.

Jazz Drummer confirms my belief that it has nothing to do with the heads.

http://www.tightscrew.com/ This sounds like an interesting fix. I see that when ordering the use Ludwig as an example....confirming the problem.

[Michael G]

What I do notice on the new Supras is that the bolts are pre-lubed and that they in fact turn easy, almost without resistance. My first thought was this was because of the nylon washers, and nothing else. I don't think it has anything to do with tolerances. The bolts on all my other snares do not turn so easily. In fact, there's enough resistance that they almost click, when using a drum key.

Jazz Drummer confirms my belief that it has nothing to do with the heads.

http://www.tightscrew.com/ This sounds like an interesting fix. I see that when ordering the use Ludwig as an example....confirming the problem.

If you do order some, tell me what size tension rods you got so I can quick order then in the future when I have some cash that isn't going to something else.

Also make sure you keep the tension rods you replace in a safe place in case you do ever sell it..Although because it is new at the moment it might not make a difference, but you never know.

[KarlCrafton]

TIGHT SCREWS!!!!

THEY WILL SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS WITH ALL LUG BACK OUT.

I got them for my Hammered Supra (my Black Beauties with tube lugs don't back out), and it totally solved the problem.

You really only need to put them on the 1 or 2 lugs that are problems, but since they come in a 10 pack, i put them on the whole top.

They are a fantastic product, and inexpensive too.

Since a lot of people on this (and other forums) have spoken about them, if you don't get them, you really only have yourself to blame when you are re-tensioning that same lug for the 6th time in your first set....

[scovit]

Smoothjazz, thanks for the advise. Thanks to all who recommended tightscrews. If anyone knows the size offhand for 5 x 14 screws before I measure, that's appeciated. It'll save me time. I'll order mine this weekend. I'll let you know.

[rjlee24]

I got a new 402 supraphonic for christmas and I've never had any problems with it...it's the best snare drum I've had. But sometimes off products do come out, with any business.

[scovit]

Just got the Tight Screws in a few days ago and immediately changed out the old screws and nylon washers. Put all 20 on. What a difference! The screws fit snug. They use metal washers and there's an inner grove filled with epoxy, which must act as resistance to loosening.

This fix works. Thanks to those who highly recommended Tight Screws!.

[Michael G]

Good to hear, what size were the screws (It is a 14 x 5 one you have right?)? I'll be ordering some next week for the batter side.

[2bsticks]

Hmmm,

I purchased my 6.5 x 14 (402) about six months ago. Before I even hit the drum I replaced both the batter and reso with Remo coated ambassador batter and Remo reso and have not noticed any detuning issues? However I am still messing with the tuning " do I like it a bit tighter, no looser, no tighter" so maybe I'm not noticing any problems.

[Deathmetalconga]

Tightscrews rule! I have eighty on my drum set - each and every lug has a Tightscrew. The guy who runs it is really cool and when he didn't have the size of tuning bolts I needed, he sent me a few feet of the nylon cord they insert in the bolt channel. I used a Dremel to cut my own channels and made 16 of my own for my bass drum. I also cut a channel in my hihat pull rod and put a bit of Tightscrew nylon into that. No more coming loose.