THE TRADITIONAL GRIP THREAD [Archive] - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

Pratt

08-05-2005, 08:54 PM

this subject came most recently to my mind after I watched one of that famularo´s lesson in wich he shows that exercise with the right hand bounceing the left stick, wich I think it may lead us to confuse the stick resting point with the fulcrum/balance point.

I believe that the fulcrum should be located exactly under the first articulation of the index finger, assuming that we are properly holding the stick. fisicaly, if we just take a look, the fulcrum for both grips will be the same in order to achieve the best bounce control possible.

so, where I want to get to is that the fulcrum is not only related to what fingers or hand section the stick is resting, but also to what point along the stick body we choose to rest the fingers. we may have perfect grip posture, but if the spot on the stick is not fisicaly correct, one of these two: or we´ll be not taking the full advantage out of the fulcrum, or there´s no fulcrum at all!

max999

08-17-2005, 01:43 AM

hey, ive recently decided id like to switch to traditional grip instead of matched. I thought it might be a good idea to learn a different way of playing and also to mabee give my playing a better sound seeing as ive switched to playing funk and a bit of jazz lately. i also found that tradtional seemed more comfortable to me even though ive used matched since i began playing, although i cant go nearly as fast with traditional since i have just begun using it. My question is just if switching would be worth it because i would have to go through all the rudiments slower to build up my playing with trad grip. Soo anyway just wondering what the advantages of the grip are also how long it will take me to become fluent using traditional.

Breadmonkey

08-17-2005, 02:22 AM

Am doing the exact same so i'm interested to hear what people have to say

Mario Vincent

08-17-2005, 07:20 AM

check out the traditional vs. matched thread...

I'm thinking about doing the same, I like to play traditional and when I practice on a pad I always use it but I always play matched on a set cause I need the power in my playing, and I’m obviously better at it... but besides the fact that’s its fun its important to your versatility so even if you don’t "switch," good skill to have...

Tom Mendola

08-17-2005, 08:26 AM

The basic rule when developing your weaker side is to practice 3 to 5 times the amount you would on the opposite limb.

With traditonal grip, you have added finger motions and a your thumb can come more into play in moving the stick.

It takes more attention to the motion because the turn of the wrist is not as free as with matched and it takes some time to develope but it has it's advantages especially for jazz.

Develope both.

hotsauce3n

08-17-2005, 08:41 AM

There is another forum on this you should search, but i think that the traditional grip provides a different dynamic, some what softer, and i think it can be smoother once it is worked out.
better for jazz, funk, fusion, marching music.

Match grip is much better playing for power playing and rock which has much more equality and a louder dynamic.

max999

08-17-2005, 04:54 PM

Ok thanks alot thats good stuff but one thing i forgot which is really improtant, do you use the same muscles that you use in matched in trad grip as well?

liquid metal smith

10-14-2005, 08:30 PM

I'm wondering what other drummers think of this.

Recent I started working out with a personal trainer who called my attention to all sorts of issues with my posture. I've been doing some rehab-style exercises in the gym and have tried to carry the lessons I've absorbed there over to my drumming.

Problem: traditional grip. Watching myself in the mirror I was noticing that my left shoulder dips significantly, causing my body to be out of alignment. Obviously, I was trying to position both hands at the same level for consistency purposes. This was also causing me to draw my left ebow into my body.

It was clear that something had to give: I wanted symmetrical posture with traditional grip. A lot of drummers slant their snare drums like military sling drums to accomplish that feat, but I'm totally unwilling to do that because I want to be able to switch back and forth between traditional and matched during a single song as suits my purposes. Besides, if Jeff Watts, Weckl, Vinnie, Smitty Smith and everyone else can play traditional on a flat snare drum, so can I, right?

So I'm left with one thing: hands at different levels. In order to keep my shoulders even and both elbows an inch away from my body, I had to bring my left hand up and rotate my wrist so that I'm looking at the "crotch" of my thumb, instead of the flat-side (experienced TGers will know what I'm talking about). Now the stick comes down at a more severe angle to the drum.

So, I'm having to "re-learn" to play with my hand at this new angle. Wondering if anyone has any thoughts....

rjvsmb

10-14-2005, 11:29 PM

Hey liquid,

There are thee guys you can look at who use the tradition grip: Dave Weckl, Steve Gadd and Steve Smith. The one common thing they all have is the height of the snare drum.

They all set their snares relatively high (about at or just below their belly button) so they don't have to dip their left shoulder or reach down with their left hand. The other benefit of a high snare is keeps you in better posture and movement around the kit a lot easier.

Weckl and Gadd position their snares at an angle with a front down, back up angle rather than a side tilt. This seems to allow them to use both traditional and matched grip.

As for Steve Smith, he has a slight side tilt, but it's not so extreme that he has to use a funky arm position to use a matched grip. I believe it's his snare height that allows him to move between the two grips and maintain good posture.

I hope this makes sense and gives you some options.

rjvsmb

Garvin

10-15-2005, 12:07 AM

Great thread. I just started playing traditional grip and am coping with this deficiency rather slowly. I love the idea of raising the snare drum. That clinches it, I'm finally gonna get myself a new snare stand. Mine's been stripped for the last year and a half and I haven't been able to raise it at all. What an epiphany thanks rjvsmd!!

J0llyhunter

10-16-2005, 04:25 PM

i actually raised my arm too, because it seemed to make more sense that way. i know what you are talking about, it is kinda hard to play with that angle, but i sorta adjust my hand to get the ebst of both worlds

raf_v

10-22-2005, 11:33 PM

is it normal when you are learning to play the traditional grip and when you are playing for an hour that your firts finger hurts ?

finnhiggins

10-22-2005, 11:48 PM

is it normal when you are learning to play the traditional grip and when you are playing for an hour that your firts finger hurts ?

No. Pain is bad.

................................(20 characters)

NouveauCliche

10-22-2005, 11:59 PM

No. Pain is bad.

................................(20 characters)

Finn's right...any pain you feel is bad and is typically caused by some lack of technique/improper grip, etc. Spend a couple minutes doing some singles with your left hand and seeing exactly what the stick is doing in your hand. Spend a while trying to adjust your grip until it feels comfortable. If you find that you're exerting too much stress on your first finger, loosen up a bit and use a more moeller-esque whipping motion with your stick and see if you like how that feels. It's funny that you mention your finger hurting...whenever I play traditional for more than like 3-4 hours (on a gig) the only part of my hand that's sore is my thumb...just goes to show ya, everyone hold their sticks a little differently!

Mckinney

12-19-2005, 05:37 AM

hi, i play matched grip and am trying to do some more traditional stuff, but i cant seem to master it with my left hand (o ya im right handed). So my question is, is there any advantages or disadvantages to haveing it played with your right hand instead of your left? And could some please tell me why everyone uses it in there left hand? Thanks a bunch.

ak_

12-19-2005, 06:52 AM

Well...I'll start off with why everyone plays traditional with their left hand.

See back a little while ago, everyone who played snare did so on a sling, (today many still play with slings as opposed to harneses) but yeah...what a sling did is it tilted your drum so the left part of the drum was higher than the right part of the drum. The playing surface wasn't flat...and so matched grip was awkard and funny looking to try to play with, so someone decided to flip the left stick around so the drum was easier to play. POOF! The invention of the traditional grip.

Ummm....i would say play it with your left hand. One major foreseeable disadvantage to playing trad with your right stick is that everytime someone watches you play your gonna get crap for playin all weird. If you ever go to a jazz fest and have to play in front of famous drum judges...then, well...you're gonna feel REALLY REALLY stupid. so there's that! Also...yes it's hard to get used to, but through consisitent practice and proper technique you'll get it in no time. Definently use your left stick for traditional grip. AND if you keep trying and it doesn't work, evaluate why you're trying to learn traditional instead of matched. Matched is just as accepted a grip as traditional...(if you need it for drumline purposes I understand..but then you wouldn't be allowed to play right handed trad anyway!!!!) Trust me, keep working on it....you'll get it.

I hope this helps.

Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan

12-19-2005, 02:00 PM

Billy Cobham plays traditional with both hands, looks very cool. But that is not something I would think of adopting for myself....

k3ng

12-19-2005, 02:09 PM

I've practiced up to a level where I can play matched, left trad, right trad, or both trad (The best of these for me being left trad, since I'm right handed).

I'd say right trad would look cooL, no?! Unique =P

Just practice both, if you honestly can't get it in the left, stick with matched.

mlehnertz

12-19-2005, 04:21 PM

I would say that traditional grip in both hands would not be a wise choice in most drum set configurations.

vince

12-19-2005, 06:09 PM

Try it ! It could be funny ! Likewise if it doesn't work you can change, so experiment !

NouveauCliche

12-19-2005, 08:19 PM

Check out Lenny White. He's a left handed player, playing on a right handed set up. He's got his rides on his left and his toms are in a tradional right hand kinda set up...and he plays traditional grip with his right hand. It's hard to watch, always freaks me out. He's AWESOME though!

GAZZASCOTLAND

12-21-2005, 10:53 AM

i had a friend when i was playing pipe band drumming years ago....we were both grade 1 drummers....we won many a competition in soloing..he was right handed trad grip...so it never done him any harm....though i never seen him playing a kit,i wouldnt imagine it would pose too many problems....give it a bash and see how you get on..

Tutin

12-27-2005, 01:34 AM

I was at a Nikko McBrain clinic earlier this year and he said that he couldn't play traditional right handed so he did it left handed because it was easier. He said that if your teacher (or anyone for that matter) tells you "You should be holding your sticks like this..." why bother?
Basically what he was saying is that if you can play something the way you do then why bother trying to learn another way? It does make sense.

King Crimson

12-27-2005, 01:47 AM

Latin Groover

12-27-2005, 02:23 AM

I play matched grip, but wen i tried to play trad i couldnt. I find it easier to hold trad grip in my right hand, (like a left hand player, not a right. Weird huh) I do a dbl strok roll way better using the lefty trad grip (so my right hand is trad and left is matched) than doing the right handed trad (right hand matched and left trad).

franklinj

12-27-2005, 06:53 AM

I find that right handed traditional grip is easier for me (im right handed). I dont know why, but it lets me go so much faster, and its much easier to do doubles, paradiddles, etc...

emergency

12-27-2005, 04:32 PM

Hi folks, i,ve been hunting for good video clips of left hand technique with a breakdown of the action without much success. Any links you would recommend.. I moved over to trad grip about a year ago, but my practice regime has been limited to jamming in the studio with friends. I raised the snare, and have been focusing on getting a powerful crack from the drum using a kinda whip down and up action. Power has been achieved but i need to improve ghost note control, unaccented triplets in the background etc etc..

Latin Groover

12-28-2005, 02:39 AM

So do normally play lefty matched but wen playing trad u find it easier to do right hand trad?

Wohoo 200 posts!

minishee07

12-28-2005, 08:09 AM

go look at weckle's videos in the clinic section. also jojo's moeller video is good too.

Raymond Bloom

12-28-2005, 08:48 AM

also Jojo's Moeller video is good too.
I'd say - also Jojo's Moeller video is too good :D

kzdruma

01-04-2006, 06:29 PM

I have been using matched grip for 7 years and want to switch to traditional! Any tips?

Rich

01-04-2006, 07:05 PM

Help with traditional grip.
There arn't many of us left it seems but when I was coming up I was taught this is how you hold drum sticks. There was no other way. Now with match grip you don't see as many young players using the traditional style grip. I hope we can keep the tradition around forever! I am a drum teacher and a member of the Vic Firth Education Team. I use "A Fresh Approach to the Snare Drum" music book by "Mark Wessels" for all my beginner students. In the front of the book is a good discription of how to play using the traditional grip complete with pictures. Try to get a copy, it will help you a lot. I am sure there are other books available as well. However, start slow. It will feel very strange at first. However, stay with it. You now will be rotating your forearm a bit along with your hand and wrist as you play. The fulcrum is now in the web of that hand between the thumb and the index finger. Keep it somewhat tight in there as this is what will be holding your stick (for the most part) in that hand. Bring your index finger and middle finger around and on top of the stick leaving the other two fingers below the stick. The middle finger does not have to be all the way on top. It sort of rest slightly a long side of the stick a lot of the time. Don't be to concerned with all that at this point. Don't squeeze the stick with your fingers, let it have room to respond off the drum head. Well, this is a good starting point. Give it a try and see what you think. If I can help more just let me know. I'll do my best to keep this tradition alive! Take care and have fun! Rich

gr82bagn

01-04-2006, 07:17 PM

kzdruma

I started my transformation from matched to traditional about 6 months ago and what has helped me the most thus far has been practicing basic strokes first (single and double) and then working into my basic rudiments. Always slow at first and with a gradual build up in speed and always to a metronome. I’ve only just started to feel real comfortable with the traditional grip and in my opinion is has had a tremendous effect on my playing. I feel more in control and my dynamics seem to have improved as well.

vince

01-04-2006, 10:13 PM

I think you should do the exercise Dom Famularo gives in this Cyber-Lesson about traditional grip : you have to develop strengh in your fulcrum, between the thumb and the side of your hand. All come from that with traditional grip. http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html

Peter J

01-05-2006, 08:42 PM

Since traditional grip is a subject near and dear to my heart I thought I'd throw my two cents in - I believe one of the most important aspects of learning and playing traditional grip specifically the weaker hand is developing the rotation of the forearm and holding the sticks loosely, almost to the point of dropping them. When I first started and what I've seen others new to the grip do is to have a tendency of dropping the stick more from the fulcrum than rotating the arm. The motion I'm describing is like turning a door knob. If your doing it right you should feel the muscles in your shoulder working. On Dom F's Vic Firth Cyber Lesson he demonstrated an exercise to train these muscles--also both Joe Morello videos explain and demonstrate this in detail--hope this helps

kzdruma

01-09-2006, 06:35 PM

When I am play should I have my left index finger over the stick even when I want the stick to rebound? Like when I am playing a double stroke roll?

emergency

01-09-2006, 10:38 PM

Hi.
I turned over to traditional 1 year ago after spending 15 years playing match grip.
Having recently tuned into drummer world there are some really good video clips to help estatblish good technique. The best approach for me has been to focus on the moller technique as demonstrated by jo jo mayer on this site.
This action works best when you have grip at the sweet spot on the stick. with a secure tension (not too tight!) between thum and web. Accented notes come from the hand being opened up slightly with the wrist revolving out,- together with a whip coming from the gripped thumb position . Unaccented bounce strokes are controlled by adjusting the height of the stick, - which affects the angle of the stick,- together with subtle pressure being applied by the middle finger/index finger .
I should emphasise that i,ve only being playing trad grip for a year, so i,m sure i,m still making basic errors. However the feel of this grip when your in the zone is worth the headache.
Also try raising your snare when analysing where your losing stick energy.
Enjoy!

gr82bagn

01-10-2006, 06:32 AM

Always remember to stay relaxed. Don't choke up on the stick, let the left hand cradle the stick.

sublicon

01-10-2006, 08:03 AM

In addition to the vicfirth link above, check out this one: http://www.vicfirth.com/features/DCI2005.html

If you want to see some strong use of traditional grip, look no further than drum corps snare lines. That's where I got my training and it hasn't failed me yet!

Watch their hands closely, emulate what they do, and seek out exercises online to play along with. Legato strokes and accent to tap exercises are your best friend when looking to strengthen your technique. Then work rolls and flams.

zildjian_dude101

01-10-2006, 07:49 PM

Do you at least know how to hold the stick traditional? If you know that, then it's all in the wrist. I don't play traditional, but my friend is teaching me.

kzdruma

01-11-2006, 02:45 PM

funked_up

01-11-2006, 03:04 PM

Raymond Bloom

01-11-2006, 03:44 PM

I just learned by watching drummers and researching on the internet. A good video to watch on Drummerworld, is JoJo Mayer, when he is behind the stage on his practice kit, explaining the moeller technique. Watch, Watch, Watch it over and over again!! Hopefully that will help you. I know it helped me a great deal.
O yeah, that video clip is really great. I learned a lot from it too! I'm exited, this friday I'm getting the whole Modern drummer 2005 dvd :-) so much new to learn!

Pete Stoltman

01-11-2006, 03:48 PM

So my left index finger is always over the stick?

Yes, keep the index finger over the stick. I have the pad of my left thumb touching the index finger at the first joint. As others have suggested don't use the fingers too tightly.

Tempro_Pro

01-14-2006, 04:02 AM

when you have your left hand holding the stick underhanded, what part of the wrist do you use to hit the drum, do you swing your hand straight down or do you turn your hand in a clockwise turn?

vince

01-14-2006, 02:10 PM

when you have your left hand holding the stick underhanded, what part of the wrist do you use to hit the drum, do you swing your hand straight down or do you turn your hand in a clockwise turn?
Mostly clockwise turn for me. But I think I mix both when using moeller technique, etc...

PacificCX

01-22-2006, 06:59 AM

Anybody know of a good link on the web that has some close up video clips on playing traditional grip?? Anybody give any tips? I have the fulcrum down between hand and thumb, but i am not sure how to use the middle fingers for the rebound???

Raymond Bloom

01-22-2006, 07:15 AM

Well not exactly what you wanted but superb traditional grip playing ;)
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Jojomayermoeller.html

Berberman

01-22-2006, 12:19 PM

Dave Weckl on his 'back to basics' video demonstrates the traditional grip and how to feel comfortable with it. I highly recomend it.

Class A Drummer

01-22-2006, 09:09 PM

foursticks

01-22-2006, 09:28 PM

Can someone help me with traditional. Im a righty but i can only play traditional left. I mean i can kind of play as a righty. I can kind of role. My drum teacher doesnt teach traditional. He can do anything on the drums exept TRADITIONAL STYLE.
Any ideas?
Thx in advance.
if your talking about traditional grip, the left hand is the only one that uses traditional grip whilst the right is matched grip.... theres a video on the vic firth site by dom fabulano and he demonstrates it pretty well

BadKid2409

01-23-2006, 01:02 AM

Traditional? yeah no prob. In Modern Drummer January 2006, on page 74, it talks about the history and style of the Traditional Grip. in Marching Bands, most snare drummers unify in uniform (thats kinda fun to say) by using the more stylish and more articulate approach: Traditional. this is when you take your left hand (since your right handed) and face your palm towards your body. By placing the drumstick between your thumb, resting on your ring finger, placing your index finger next to your thumb, and easily resting your middle finger next to your index, (only letting it rest. no pressure by the middle finger is necessary) you've allowed yourself more of an articulate sound with your playing. since double Traditional style is not really a style, (using trad. with your right and left hands) use match grip with your right hand. when it comes to speed, roles, etc, it just takes times. by purchasing a practice pad, im not talking about a cheap $4.00 practice pad either. a real HQ Percussion Products practice pad (URL as follows...)

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Drums/Percussion/Accessories?sku=443823

you can really get your strength up, and get better at Traditional.

IM me on AIM at BadKid2409 if you need any more help.

Coatz

01-23-2006, 01:30 AM

I'd also advise, if you really want to play traditional, and your drum teacher doesn't teach it, find on who can teach you the styles you want to learn :)

Class A Drummer

01-28-2006, 06:10 AM

thx guys im startin to get pretty good at it... i can play some steve gadd stuff now traditional.

RickJames

02-01-2006, 02:44 AM

Art Verdi seems to play closed with his left hand when doing a single stroke roll. However in moellers book, there is a picture of how he holds the stick and his bottom fingers are open. What are the advantages or disadvantages of holding the stick either open or closed?

hotsauce3n

02-01-2006, 04:30 AM

well rick james i too saw the moeller military techinique and i think that it is more of an effective way most drummers can do it, as for art verdi, his playing is very unique and he probably has the developed muscle to do this, theres no way i can do this i really dont know how he muscles that out

Tex12

02-01-2006, 04:59 AM

Buddy Rich also muscled a single stroke roll in a unique kind of Moeller way
It looks like Art Verdi has wrists and fingers moving together in some of those high single strokes
I'm still trying to figure out how Art gets that left stick moving playing eighth note triplets at 210 or something

kzdruma

02-01-2006, 06:37 PM

flyerorange

02-11-2006, 05:29 PM

I'm learning traditional grip currently, after several years of playing matched. I've been experimenting with different finger techniques for the left hand, and find that I get the most speed and comfort when I keep my index finger wrapped around the stick, and relax the thumb. Previous to this, I was straightening all the fingers, and holding the stick with just the thumb.

I would appreciate any opinions of what some of you do on your left strokes, as far as what fingers are doing what. Thanks.

Stu_Strib

02-11-2006, 07:28 PM

flyerorange

02-12-2006, 12:13 AM

I, too, found the same thing happening. That's when I started to keep my index finger around the stick when I loosened the thumb and the other fingers. It seemed to slide less.

RickJames

02-12-2006, 01:23 AM

You need to find the most comfortable rebound fulcrum for the stick and squeeze the muscle between your thumb and index finger to keep the stick in place. You don't need to squeeze too tight, just enough to keep the stick in place.

Drummer Karl

02-12-2006, 10:48 AM

First it sounds a little bit strange but there is no real traditional technique! Steve Gadd has another traditional technique than Dave Weckl (for example). I think this technique is very free...

tomondrums

02-12-2006, 03:02 PM

yeah dave weckls cd back to basics is really helpful

Auger

02-12-2006, 11:24 PM

Yeah, there are a lot of trad techniques -just like with matched.

I switched to traditional back in september pretty much full time. Stu, I had the same problem at first, but it went away with practice. I think it's a matter of stregthening muscles, and -moreso- of being able to find that 'sweet spot' for your fulcrum where it takes barely any grip to keep the stick in place.

Anyway, my teacher is a true master with trad grip. He taught me that it's mostly with the thumb over the stick for the fulcrum. It's difficult to describe and the other fingers do play a role, but the hand should be in more of a karate chop position, not palm up like you've got your hand out asking for change. The thumb is over the stick and the other fingers are mostly extended. The ring and pinky fingers lie underneath the stick, and the index and middle fingers are in front of it -if that makes sense. In the method he taught me, the thumb is where your 'finger control' comes from for the left hand -it plays the same role as the index, middle, and ring fingers on your right hand. This method works great for a rebound based / moeller type technique.

-But, as karl said, there are *lots* of ways to do it, so you should go with whatever works best for you and not worry about being 'wrong'.

flyerorange

02-13-2006, 02:10 AM

I appreciate everyone's insight. It is helpful. I am having fun experimenting with traditional grip, and continuing to work out of Jim Chapin's Advancrd Techniques book.

Stu_Strib

02-13-2006, 10:33 AM

I've definitely figure out that the crotch of the thumb and first finger is where the action is! The other fingers on top keep the stick from flying away (and can be used for subtle pushes down?).

My question now is, does the ring finger "help" on the rebound by pushing the stick back up? What i find happening a lot is that the stick goes down (with my thumb crotch pushing it down) and my first two fingers "get out of the way". The stick hits the head and my ring finger almost simultaneously, then the stick falls back down on my ring finger at the top. This is causing a slight calous and definitely bruising a little. Is this normal, or just bad technique?

Any thoughts on that?

Peter J

02-13-2006, 06:51 PM

I'd be curious to know if is is normal for me to keep losing the balance point of the stick (as the stick starts sliding slowly out of my hand and my hand starts creeping towards the back of the stick).

I'm constantly having to readjust that hand, especially on a drum kit. Normal, or bad technique?

Hey Stu

I know exactly what your talking about--It seems that when more of the motivating action of the stick comes from the fulcrum than from the rotation of the wrist and forearm you experience stick slippage-I guess because of the excessive variation in tension at the fulcrum when it should be more of a steady loose grip with the wrist and forearm doing the "heavy lifting"-I assume we're talking about the left hand--I experience slippage when I'm exerting my left side--usually doing some fast tempo pattern around the set--I guess it comes down to training and strengthening the forearm and wrist muscles

Pete

Stu_Strib

02-13-2006, 07:18 PM

Well, I've eliminated the slipping phenomena, but at the expense of power. The trick is, like already said, is to train the muscles in your thumb and finger to grip the stick while still being relaxed. You just got to do about 10,000,000 strokes until you find the perfect amount of pressure to hold the stick but not tighten up!

Auger

02-13-2006, 08:13 PM

You just got to do about 10,000,000 strokes until you find the perfect amount of pressure to hold the stick but not tighten up!

haha, yeah, that's about what it takes. The power eventually starts to come back, but it takes a while. I had to really commit to it to get power happening -I don't really practice matched anymore and I'm just getting power happening now after about 5 months. What worked for me (again, there're lots of ways to accomplish the same) was/is concentrating on the karate chop Vs palm-up hand position and working on a 'moeller' type stroke. This is hard to explain without demonstrating (and I think it's already been described better than I could in some threads here anyway) ...and I certainly haven't perfected it yet, I'm just lucky to have a great teacher, but I'll give a short try: You sort of lead with your elbow and use the whole arm -both forearm and upper arm- as well as wrist and fingers. As speed increases, the movement of the arm becomes less and less, but it's good to practice it slow and exaggerated at first to get it happening.

The general thing is, since you can't really just lean the whole weight of your arm into the stick -as it's above your hand- you have to get the power from whatever form or technique you're using.

As for the ring and pinky fingers -you want to get them out of the way when you strike the drum -especially if you're getting bruises. They're definately helping control or move the stick, but you shouldn't be striking them. Maybe you need more wrist rotation?

I really like traditional so far and I've made lots of progress -I can play most rudimental stuff much more cleanly and balanced. The final challenge for me is re-constructing my single stroke roll. According to teach, that's the hardest thing about transitioning and one of the hardest things to do with traditional grip, so I don't feel so bad about it, but it's definatly lagging behind overall progress and juuust starting to come into focus now.

Class A Drummer

03-01-2006, 12:49 AM

If ur pad is too hard then loosen the bolts with a screw driver. heh heh.

photon

04-05-2006, 02:08 AM

As I have already mentioned in a number of other posts on this forum I am a mature player (45 next month) who after a long absence away from drumming took the sport up again about 4 months ago. I thought it might be interesting to some to share my thoughts on why I recently decided to switch to traditional grip.

In my playing days (12-23 years old) I played with what could be called a matched grip (although my technique was terrible). Never having taken more then 2 or 3 lessons when I was about 9 years old, I just gripped the sticks in a way that was comfortable for me. Looking back it could best be described as a german grip, palms down mainly. Although on the ride cymbal I would use what I now learned would be more of a french grip, thumb on top of the stick. Save for that riding on the cymbal I really played with very little finger control, it was all wrists and arms.

Now four months in to my big "comeback" after learning about all of the various grips through the resources here on Drummerworld and experimenting with all of them I decided to make the switch to traditional.

Like 99% of the drummers on this forum and around the world I suffer from a weak left hand, that is, one hand is more dominant then the other. In reality it is more like the lack of coordination in the fingers of the left hand rather then any actual physical weakness. After a few months of struggling with my left hand playing matched grip (I know...that's not a very long time) I started to experiment with the traditional grip. Maybe it's a throw back to those few lessons I took 35 years ago but traditional has alway felt somewhat comfortable to me, even though I never used it in my playing in the past. just those few lessons when I was 9 years old and probably a couple hours in total of practice before I abandoned it altogether. That being said, it's really quite amazing what you can retain when you are taught something at a very young age.

Although I won't say that learning traditional doesn't have it's share of frustrations, the point is that they are unique to that hand. No longer am I faced with the constant comparison and negative reinforcement that can come with trying to get that darn left hand to match up with the right. And who of us hasn't starting pounding that practice pad or kit in frustration in those moments when you think it just ain't ever going to happen...ever! I mean, the traditional grip is a completely different movement altogether! And for that reason, even though it is not yet up to the speed of the right I would say it is already as adept as my left was in most everything using matched and in some cases already better (doubles, paradiddles, all those multiple bounce figures). I've also found that I've developed somewhat of a Moeller technique by accident in the left hand too, just a natural sort of whipping motion that has seemed to develop on it's own out of neccessity to accomplish what it is I'm trying to do.

It's makes all those hours spent at the practice pad a lot more enjoyable now then when I was sweating with matched grip. I can't remember who the quote was from in the issue of Modern Drummer from a few months back (without running downstairs and getting the article) that went in depth on the subject of grip but what he basically said was that he insists on his students spending at least a small portion of their lesson time on playing with traditional grip and in most cases after a certain period of time the student will make the switch on their own permanently. Now that quote really makes you think.

It would be interesting to hear from others who have made the switch to traditional and why they chose to do so.

fossilhead

04-05-2006, 06:49 AM

I made the switch to traditional grip last year (although I still switch back and forth mid song for reach and fill issues, and the audience loves the dazzling stick spin show).

I've found that some things for me are easier to play traditional grip. Also there are a lot of cool techniques and sounds you can get from a traditional grip that are more difficult (for me) with a matched grip. It's just comfy.

I decided to make the switch because I'm currently involved in a classic jazz tribute show. So, since everyone else is adopting the styles of the singers, I decided to adopt the style of the drummers at that time. I've had a few comments from people that I reminded them of Krupa or Rich. Quite flattering, I doubt people that really know drumming would agree though.

Stu_Strib

04-05-2006, 07:55 AM

I switched to traditional grip for two reasons. I too had a break in playing, but that didn't affect my decision. I had a good 4 month period of waiting for my drums, so all I had was a practice pad, some sticks and the internet. I hit a huge wall at about 750 bpm with matched grip singles, so I thought I'd give it a rest (no progress for weeks) and started learning traditional.

The second reason is my rekindled interest in jazz. Traditional grip feels better with brushes, and it is easier to play doubles and triples with traditional grip...(you just drop the stick!)

I would play traditional all the time except I can't play with power and speed moving around the toms. I can play faster on one surface with traditional grip, but if I have to move around, I just lack the coordination (practice will fix that).

Also, I find it much harder to play orchestral style snare, as it is really hard to crank out the good tight buzz rolls with the left hand. I've noticed though, through lots of practice that my thumb has really become very strong and really cruncheds the buzzes good now on my left hand, so I'm almost as good. I can still play louder and faster buzz rolls with matched grip, but I am now at least competent with traditional grip.

I can play swiss triplets, flam taps, flam-a-ques and stufff like that much faster with traditional grip, because again, you are just dropping the stick, where has matched grip I have to crank out the strokes with my retarded left hand fingers.

Finally, the strangest thing, is that all the devlopment I've been working on in my traditional grip, has actually made my left hand matched grip better! My left hand fingers are much more responsive than before, and I haven't even been working on the matched grip!

Loge

04-05-2006, 09:59 AM

I started with traditional grip like a lot of folks. My father had played marching snare in his high school ROTC band for a short period. For years his old Slingerland field snare hung on a hook in the basement - calfskin heads, parade sticks and all. I had been learning clarinet for about four years in the elementary school band and I clearly remember the day that, for some reason out of the blue, I asked him to take it down and show me something. He taught me the proper way to hold the sticks in the traditional manner and how to do a double stroke and a buzz roll. Somehow it felt familiar and I immediately sensed the bounce and got the rolls to an even and farely fast tempo. There was an explosion somewhere in my psyche and I was 'off to the races." That was my first formal lesson and I wouldn't have another for twenty three years! I asked my father why the left hand stick was positioned that way and he explained the ergonomics of marching with the drum strapped to the shoulder and how the head positions itself. I played that snare for about four years with the traditional grip and taught myself some of the rudiments. It wasn't until I got a kit at sixteen that I ever considered matched grip because it felt more natural moving around the different drums and smashing cymbals. A lot of the rock guys I was trying to emulate were playing matched, but then Buddy would come on TV and I'd usually switch back to the traditional grip for awhile. But speed and power around the drumset was always easier for me matched. It no longer made any sense to use a grip that was developed for marching with drums and I quit using it for a number of years. It wasn't until I became really interested in playing jazz that I started to reconsider - all of the players I studied used that traditional grip and I began to see why. The finesse that is possible with comping patterns on the snare are greatly improved and, as Stu mentioned, brush playing also benefits. Power around the kit is still difficult at times and left hand cymbal crashes can be awkward. But I love the control on the snare.

So....I try to practice both grips - usually matched for rock and funk, traditional for jazz although I try to switch them around occasionally. (most current playing/gigging is matched due mostly to the volume issue) It is amazing to watch a player like Jack Dejohnette effortlessly switch between the grips - even in the middle of a song.

It's interesting to note how certain great players use the 'unlikely' grip for their style of music -Stewart Copeland (rock-trad) and Bill Stewart (jazz-matched) come to mind.

Lord, I didn't intend for this post to rattle on and on - simpler to say "both grips are good and have their respective advantages". Thanks for letting me indulge myself, though. Good memories.

RudimentalDrummer

04-05-2006, 10:16 AM

I have all the while been using Match Grip and I am trying to use Traditional Grip with my Left-Hand for practicing Jazz Drumming nowadays.

I could do it very well using my right hand, but not my left cause I'm Right handed, but I'm trying very hard indeed. My left hand is always bent either inside or outside and not parallel/straight (the part between the wrist & hand)....also my grip (between inside of my Thumb and pointer finger is not strong) ..... still practicing everynight and looking at my own hands while practicing single stroke here ....kekeke.

My Drumming Instructor told me to learn Traditional Grip as it look more Stylo while playing Jazz and also I must be versatile in using both kind of Grip.

The thing I love about Traditional Grip and I really find it so fun (I'm really enjoying myself) when I do the single stroke using my wrist and the little pointer finger to push the stick down during the rebound - it's amusing to me - I love it...cheers everyone.

photon

04-05-2006, 01:01 PM

Yes I agree that speed and power moving around the kit is a challenge using traditional but that can be overcome, there are plenty of examples out there, Weckl etc. Just after 6 weeks I find it not too big of a hurdle to overcome.

It was my weak rudimental skills that converted me to traditional, I just have much more control with those bounces. Singles stroke rolls are a challenge, but my roll sucked with matched anyway so I have nothing to lose.

Auger

04-05-2006, 04:35 PM

I switched to traditional last september after playing matched for about 15 years.

Basically I did it because I quit the band I was playing in. I'd always dabbled in traditional grip, but decided to really commit to it and make the switch full time because I could afford to do the 2 steps back / three steps forward thing more easily while not having to play a couple of gigs per week. It was also nice to start something new while not being involved in any musical projects.

I'm also inspired by my teacher who's one of the best players I've ever seen -I've seen him do stuff in traditional I woudln't have thought humanly possible. And I too love jazz -guys like joe morello, art blakey, shelly manne, roy haynes, papa Jo, and Philly joe Jones -who was my teacher's teacher. So it's about emulating players I admire.

One of the things I love about traditional is a philosophy I learned from my teacher, and along the lines of some stuff photon said. With Matched grip, even among the best players, the left hand will almost never quite be able to keep up with the right, but, with traditional, it's not about the left hand emulating the right hand, it's about the left hand doing it's own thing and the two hands working together. ...or, like my teacher puts it, With matched grip, Right and left hands are like Adult and Skilled youth, but with traditional, it's like Man and woman.

The limits I'm having with traditional are similar to what I read in the above posts. I can get a fair amount of power with moeller techniques, but still can't match matched. no pun intended. And single strokes are slower using the free-stroke method. I'm no dennis chambers, but single stroke rolls always came somewhat naturally to me in matched -I could/can play free-stroke 16th note singles at about 100-104bpm =a half note without really practicing them specifically on a regular basis. But, in traditional, I can only reach around 80-85bpm =a half note so far without using moeller technique and I'm working on free-stroke singles every day. I'm not frustrated, though, I'm enjoying the process and the challenge!

Muckster

04-05-2006, 05:41 PM

I too have recently switched to traditional grip as well. I took a rather long break from drums (about 10 years!!!). I am back now strong and have committed to only playing with traditional grip. In my younger days (i'm now 40) it was all about playing for other people and "showing off", now its more about me and becoming as technically proficient as a i can. So i decided to focus on traditional grip. That means i am literally starting over from scratch with rudiments and it's a hell of alot of fun!!

Stu_Strib

04-05-2006, 05:45 PM

...or, like my teacher puts it, With matched grip, Right and left hands are like Adult and Skilled youth, but with traditional, it's like Man and woman.

Wow, that is awesomely put! I am definitely using that one!

Actually I think of the right hand as adult american and my left traditional grip as adult european...two different things trying to do the same things, but going at it in different ways.

Jeff Almeyda

04-05-2006, 06:10 PM

For the type of music I play (progressive-type metal with left hand lead) matched grip is the way to go.

I have definitely found some things that flow more easily with trad grip, however. I can do about 900 BPM with trad doubles but only about 800 BPM with matched doubles. Also, jazz and swing feels definitely feel more "legit" with trad grip.

Funny thing but since the matched grip was around for centuries before the "traditional" grip shouldn't the matched grip be called traditional? The "traditional" grip could be called the "marching drum" grip or whatever. Just a pet peeve of mine.

photon

04-05-2006, 08:08 PM

Muckster...I am of the same mind as you...I played fast and loud and sloppy for all those years as a kid....now it's time to really learn how to play the drums.

Funny story...I picked up a book at a music store yesterday called "You can teach yourself Drums" because I am also learning how to read (music that is) so I needed something really basic, and it's not like I can't play all the patterns in there already, just need to learn how they are written. It was almost embarrassing. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh...what's a quarter note?......hahaha. If the clerk had asked if it was for me I would have said no...it's for my son.

Auger

04-05-2006, 08:44 PM

Wow, that is awesomely put! I am definitely using that one!

Actually I think of the right hand as adult american and my left traditional grip as adult european...two different things trying to do the same things, but going at it in different ways.

That's another good one -I like that, stu!

Yes, he's a wise man. He considers drumming a philosophy and it shows in how he teaches and explians things: lots of analogy and discussion about ideas and concepts, talking about stuff from "what is rhythm?" to concepts like how melody relates to timekeeping and deciphering complicated phrases and stickings, as well as the standard nuts and bolts technique stuff. ...and I drink it up after the black and white 9-5 dayjob, hahaha.

My wife jokes that it sounds like I'm taking drum lessons from Yoda when I talk about it.

...mmmmmm. grip the sticks loosely you must.

anyway, sorry to ramble off topic. Great thread, photon!

Anduin

04-05-2006, 09:00 PM

I'm just the opposite. I learned traditional grip and played it for several years. Then I went to a summer music camp (which was an excellent experience; I recommend it for all musical kids), and for reasons that escape me at the moment I switched to matched grip and stuck with it.

Still, when it's time to play jazz I gravitate back to traditional grip. There's no definite reason. I'm not going for a jazz look or anything. There's just something deep in the brain that prefers traditional when it hears a swing ride pattern.

Muckster

04-05-2006, 09:01 PM

Photon,

I have collected drum books all through the years, and would look at them from time to time but never really got into them until now. Most of my playing experience was in rock bands and the music required very little "study." I had a few drummers come up to me and compliment me and say "what rudiment were you using on the opening of that last tune?' I was like: uh, i dunno. I actually managed to get a music scholarship through college playing in the jazz band. I could play that stuff but didn't really know what i was doing. I would recommend the books by Louie Belson, musical method and the like.
Also, The Drummer's Bible, i like that book because it contains tons of different styles of beats written out and is accompanied by two CD's so you can hear the beat as well as learn to read it in the book.

photon

04-06-2006, 02:43 AM

Hey Muckster I had the same experience too. When I played all those years when I was young it was always in one band or another. I remember hardly ever practicing, just jamming with guys and learning songs in one band or another.

I would do a fill on the kit and one of the guitar players would go "hey those were really fast 16th notes" or something like that, and I would go...."Huh?...I guess"

I didn't really know what a paradiddle was until 4 months ago, but I recall playing variations of them when I was young (crude ones at that).

I like the feel of traditional grip...I love the whipping action of the arm and wrist when you really get in the zone, it just feels really comfortable to me.

My instructor has me just using my thumb for my left hand traditional for the next week. I never realized how key that thumb was and you can really get it going while keeping the rest of the hand and wrist absolutely motionless. I know this drill is really going to pay off in time.

ZDrums24

04-10-2006, 01:09 AM

i had a similar relavation to neil pearts that basically says: USE BOTH MORON!
i used matched for everything (mostly because a teacher somewhere along the way told me that poor traditional technique could harm your hand, especially at 11 years old) plus an instructor of mine (who was trained traditional) streesed that matched was much more practical (timpani/mallets use matched). then i stumbled into the drum corp/marching world...
now, with good traditional tech, ive found that (even though both are supposed to be equal to a good player) different grips feel better for different things, whether it be just in my head or a actual physical phenomenom. i love playing snare traditional, but i just cant get my left around my five toms without going matched, plus i have a hard time hitting rimshots without tilting the drum. matched seems to have more power (even though i started on marching snare, i consider myself a tenor player).
so basically i just use whatever feels better for the application.

CheeseCake

04-10-2006, 06:42 AM

I absolutely love traditional grip. I started playing this way when I was ten, simply because it was the way my father taught me. I believe it is extremely attractive visually, and I love the way it feels. I must agree that it takes quite a bit of practice though. I was at a Thomas Lang clinic awhile back, and he likened it to playing a guitar. He said that he loved the thought of having two hands doing two different things to achieve a sound. I couldn't agree more. I also can see the usefullness of matched grip though. I don't think that traditional would be as cool if everyone played it, and I think the same goes for matched.

Mediocrefunkybeat

04-10-2006, 11:14 AM

finnhiggins

04-10-2006, 11:25 AM

I'll just throw another thing into the mix but I've been doing a lot of rimshots lately. I'm a traditional and matched player although rudimentally I feel better playing traditional, occasionally I'll swap over to matched and vice versa without even realising in the middle of a song.

But rimshots feel a LOT better with traditional. A nice 'CRACK' and a damn satisfying one at that, whereas matched ones don't feel anything like as good.

That's not something that is objectively down to trad grip. One thing that music school really impresses on you is how different a drum can sound with different people hitting it - you get to see lots of drummers at a reasonably high level hitting the same drum in succession, and no two guys sound the same. Rimshots are one area where this is particularly obvious.

So it's not really surprising that switching grip gives you a different rimshot sound. In your case the trad grip sound is the better one - in mine I get a much, much better rimshot tone in matched. Annoyingly I've not managed to get it consistent across both hands in either grip yet, which bugs me - I want to be able to do those trademarked Vinnie Colaiuta rimshot singles, but they still sound a bit amateurish.

Mediocrefunkybeat

04-10-2006, 12:30 PM

Yeah, fair enough. You're right, I wasn't being entirely objective about my point, but my other point was the feel I get in my hand. It may again be a subjective thing, but those rimshots feel better to me between my fingers than against palm. It might just be the way I'm doing it or the fact that my matched is behind my traditional (although I started matched and played that way for over a year).

Rimshots are something I really worked on recently. I don't know what drove me to do it, probably the want to drive my band insane by doing loud rimshots in a small, echoey hall (all in good fun I'll add) or the fact that I wanted to really be able to do great accents on the end of seven stroke fills (maybe I should post a clip up - easiest fill in the world) but I spent several weeks almost exclusively playing rimshots and I think I got through more pairs of sticks in those few weeks than I did in the rest of the time I've been playing.

Vinnie has a motion he uses in his rimshots, like he's driving down onto the rim and then flicking up. Anything to do Moeller? I don't use Moeller (more of the fact that I'm not motivated enough to learn it) so I can't really tell, you should be able to though Finn.

photon

04-10-2006, 03:13 PM

Traditional grip has always felt comfortable to me. My decision to make the switch was to improve my rudiments which I had never consentrated on before. I find I have much more facility for them utilizing traditional grip.

If I'm just slamming out a back beat sure match grip is comfortable, but for speed and finesse, particularly on the snare drum I find traditional better. And besides, isn't about 90% of drumming concentrated on the snare, kick and highhat?

mlehnertz

04-10-2006, 05:21 PM

Some of the logic in this thread stinks. "Because it feels comfortable to me." Anything you do repetitively is going to feel comfortable after a while.

I started out using traditional grip, played that way for 10 years and switched to matched grip. My college percussion teacher, explained to me the physiological aspects of matched and traditional grips. Because of the greater number of muscles involved in matched grip, there is more control and more power. You are also able to achieve a more uniformed sound. There are countless articles on why matched grip is superior to traditional grip.

The reason traditional grip even came into being is because of an awkwardly hung drum on a strap and that made it uncomfortable to play matched grip. Teaching a child to start out with traditional grip causes poor posture in that they need to drop their left shoulder to play on a level surface. More and more young students are being taught matched grip in favor of traditional grip. The reasons for learning this technique are gone. The other thing is why do we not play mallets, timpani, quads (etc) traditional grip?

I still remember drum set snares and concert snares being tilted at the same angle of a marching snare to accomodate all of the traditional grip players. I'm glad I switched and only in the event of switching from cross-sticking to normal play will I use traditional ever again.

photon

04-10-2006, 05:59 PM

Mlehnertz...

The traditional grip felt comfortable to me just naturally not after having used it for a long period of time.

The logic on involving more muscles with match grip escapes me. Economy of motion leads to less fatigue so ideally you would want to involve fewer muscles rather than more.

All that being said, I have nothing against match grip.......I used it my whole life...until now.

mlehnertz

04-10-2006, 08:17 PM

I have nothing against traditional grip either. The muscle thing is like this - is it easier on the farmer and his horses to pull the plow with 2 horses or 6 horses? It it easier on the car to run on 4 cylinder or 8 cylinders? A study by Mitch Markovitch called "Matched Grip: Riding the Wave of the Future" from back in the 1970s showed the benefits of playing matched vs traditional by analyzing such things as the number of muscles involved in actually playing drums. Mitch Markovitch is a fairly respected person in drumming circles. Google him if you want proof.

Mlehnertz...

The traditional grip felt comfortable to me just naturally not after having used it for a long period of time.

The logic on involving more muscles with match grip escapes me. Economy of motion leads to less fatigue so ideally you would want to involve fewer muscles rather than more.

All that being said, I have nothing against match grip.......I used it my whole life...until now.

millerdakiller

04-10-2006, 09:47 PM

I'm in the process fo making the switch. I still use matched for set playing, but for practice, it's almost all traditional, and I'm hoping to switch over completely soon. The reasons I chose to do this are many, one being that it just plains looks cool. Another, that I feel like my right hand is more free in traditional technique. I also feel like I have easier access to my two Floor Toms because I have to move my body less to get to the second one because the stick is already angled, so its a more natural motion. Another reason is the touch that you can have with traditional, you can be so gentle. I think it also helps with independence, because it is an unrelated motion tothat of the right hand, so your left is just naturally more independent(I feel).

mlehnertz

04-10-2006, 10:05 PM

Riding wheelies on a sportbike looks pretty cool too but does that make it correct?

I've got to think there was a defining moment in your playing that said, "Hey, I think it's time to switch over from what I was taught originally to this new grip." In my case, switching over from traditional to matched was easy. My instructor and I played the exact same exercise and we listened to each other. My playing with traditional was very uneven - rolls, 16th notes - most notably after lower volumes. Rolls sounded as ZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZ and tight 16th notes had different sounds. It may not sound like a big deal, but it made a LOT of sense. He played the same stuff matched, and granted he's a better player, his rolls were a continuous buzz and his 16ths sounded as if it they were played with the same hand. There was no audible difference.

The reasons I chose to do this are many, one being that it just plains looks cool.

I guess that's possible but I'd like you to explain it more. More free how?

Another, that I feel like my right hand is more free in traditional technique.

Since I can't see your set I'll have to take your word on that one.

I also feel like I have easier access to my two Floor Toms because I have to move my body less to get to the second one because the stick is already angled, so its a more natural motion.

I don't agree with you on this one. I gained a lot more control, at lower volumes after I switched.

Another reason is the touch that you can have with traditional, you can be so gentle.

Independence has nothing to do with your grip - it's all in your head. Here, read this URL, it's got some very interesting stuff.

http://users3.ev1.net/~rbeckham/matched.html

I think it also helps with independence, because it is an unrelated motion tothat of the right hand, so your left is just naturally more independent(I feel).

Henry II

04-10-2006, 10:23 PM

From the begining, my teachers (all of whom played traditional) told me that traditional grip was obsolete and that the matched grip was the waive of the future. Of course I later learned that they were wrong. Specifically, I learned that the forearm pronation associated with the traditional grip is a superior mechanical motion - but only so long as the elbow is bent and the hand is close to the body, that is to say, while playing on the snare drum. The advantage is lost when the arm is straightened and you have to reach for a sound source like a cymbal or tom. Then the matched grip technique works better. In fact, I have found that the wrist action of the matched grip works better when reaching than when the arm is bent and the hand close to the body.

Try it and see.

Class A Drummer

04-10-2006, 10:33 PM

foursticks

04-10-2006, 10:46 PM

i find its more relaxed and the stick feels more natural in my hand; allowing me to manouvre more easily and hence play faster, however i find getting round the kit harder.....

Womble

04-10-2006, 11:07 PM

What you really mean by 'all the fast players play traditional' is that most of the uber-technical players play traditional. This is for a number of reasons: firstly, their heroes will have played this way; secondly, they will have studied jazz; and thirdly, it looks cool. There are exceptions of course. I remember seeing a Marco Minnemann clinic where he occasionally swapped from matched to traditional; it only lasted a few seconds before he realised he couldn't actually play traditional very well, then he'd be back to matched! I found that quite funny.

In answer to your question, no, traditional is not 'faster' than matched. Dennis Chambers can play both ways equally, but mainly plays matched, and has extremely fast hands. But really, the only proof needed is to go here and watch Mike Mangini becoming the World's Fastest Drummer - with matched grip.

http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdtv.htm

RMS

04-10-2006, 11:14 PM

It shouldn't matter, regarding speed. Power is another issue, as larger muscles can come into play with matched grip. But speed is largely technique, and techniques such as Moeller can be done with both grips.

djp132

04-10-2006, 11:14 PM

Class A Drummer

04-10-2006, 11:18 PM

matched trad french german forefinger middlefinger doesnt matter.

ALL techniques are valuable and have their own perks. Find the one that you are most COMFORTABLE with, don't try to force yourself into a "faster technique" because A) there's no such thing, and B) you'll end up with a grip that hinders your musical potential. Explore them all and and as time passes you'll find yourself using one more than the others, and when that happens, you've found YOUR technique.

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com
Well Said. I started playing matched around age 7 and just recently *6 months* started playing around with traditional. It is more comfortable but much less powerful. I cant seem to play as well with it. I cant do open roles or closed nearly as well. Trying to fix that though.

RMS

04-10-2006, 11:25 PM

Try using your fingers a bit. Middle finger and thumb. Can't really explain it in words, but mess around with it and see if it helps you play fast at softer volumes. Work in the wrist more for power.

Class A Drummer

04-10-2006, 11:42 PM

Try using your fingers a bit. Middle finger and thumb. Can't really explain it in words, but mess around with it and see if it helps you play fast at softer volumes. Work in the wrist more for power.
Traditional? or matched? im guessing matched but i dunno.

Mediocrefunkybeat

04-11-2006, 01:12 AM

Is traditional grip faster then matched grip? i mean would buddy rich be able to play as fast or even faster if he played matched? It seems as though all the really fast players play traditional. Do they do it just for comfort?

Nope. I suppose in theory matched is actually faster because you have more control of the muscles and all the fast FAST WFD guys seem to play matched. However, in reality in a musical context there is no particular objective speed advantage I can think of to playing either grip.

OZjazzer

04-11-2006, 01:32 AM

I never thought I'd see the day when I could anything nice to say about WFD but the guys on here are spot on. As I understand it the fastest players in WFD all use matched grip!

If that's true, it pretty well sums up the argument for matched grip and speed.

Pity that piece of evidence wasn't included in the very good 'grips' article in MD recently.

mlehnertz

04-11-2006, 01:45 AM

But what about maintaining the angle of the snare drum as well? Are you required to put a downward, left-to-right angle on a snare drum to play this way?

Specifically, I learned that the forearm pronation associated with the traditional grip is a superior mechanical motion - but only so long as the elbow is bent and the hand is close to the body, that is to say, while playing on the snare drum.

tambian89

04-11-2006, 01:52 AM

Traditional Grip and Matched Grip are always a matter of confortability. However, there is a point to be made.

I am a fencer; I sword fight as a sport. In fencing, there are two different grips for a foil (a foil is the sword): French Grip and Pistol Grip. The French grip is shape like a normal handel, while the Pistol Grip is (as the name suggests) shaped like a pistol. The French Grip is easy to use, however, the Pistol Grip allows for easy control and is faster.

In comparison, the pistol grip is the equavilent of traditional grip, as it allows for more control. When one is not focused on control, and does not have to worry about control, one can focus on speed; this is possibly why drummers who use traditional grip are faster (or seem to be).

- Marc

OZjazzer

04-11-2006, 02:12 AM

A friend has told me 'Of the WFD top ten, two play traditional grip and one goes both ways. Mike Mangini holds both match grip and traditional grip records'. That's fine but of Mangini's 2 records, which one is the fastest, trad or matched? There can only be one 'fastest'.

Also I assume that at least 7 of the 10 fastest play matched? Have I got this right?

finnhiggins

04-11-2006, 02:15 AM

I don't honestly think it matters. Personally I was quite surprised to find that I'm objectively faster in traditional grip - it's my secondary grip, I only use it when I'm playing jazz. But when it comes to playing singles on a drumometer, trad grip goes faster. Don't ask me why.

That said, the difference between the records set by Mike Mangini in matched grip and trad grip are so minor as to suggest that it is entirely up to you what you use. I'd suggest that Mike probably practices trad grip less than matched given his whole playing style is all about symmetrical approaches to the kit. So if the difference for him is so small then I reckon you can choose whatever you feel comfortable with and not have any speed concerns either way.

millerdakiller

04-11-2006, 02:26 AM

Riding wheelies on a sportbike looks pretty cool too but does that make it correct?

I've got to think there was a defining moment in your playing that said, "Hey, I think it's time to switch over from what I was taught originally to this new grip." In my case, switching over from traditional to matched was easy. My instructor and I played the exact same exercise and we listened to each other. My playing with traditional was very uneven - rolls, 16th notes - most notably after lower volumes. Rolls sounded as ZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZ and tight 16th notes had different sounds. It may not sound like a big deal, but it made a LOT of sense. He played the same stuff matched, and granted he's a better player, his rolls were a continuous buzz and his 16ths sounded as if it they were played with the same hand. There was no audible difference.

I guess that's possible but I'd like you to explain it more. More free how?

Since I can't see your set I'll have to take your word on that one.

I don't agree with you on this one. I gained a lot more control, at lower volumes after I switched.

Independence has nothing to do with your grip - it's all in your head. Here, read this URL, it's got some very interesting stuff.

http://users3.ev1.net/~rbeckham/matched.html

Alright, I really don't know why you are going to argue my personal reasons for switching grips, but fair enough. The looking cool was a really secondary reason, it was meant to be a bonus.

It feels more free, I can't explain. For example, if I were to shoot you, you would not be able to explain the pain. You'd know that it hurt, but you wouldn't be able to describe how it feels.

Yah, you probably should.

I'm not saying you can't be gentle matched, I just feel like I am am more gentle Traditional.

and the independence think has to do with my head. My mind isn't tying the two motions together as simmilar, they are different motions, therefore I can do them without depending on the other hand better. IT's mental, like you said.

OZjazzer

04-11-2006, 05:42 AM

I don't think it matters either (I mean I REALLY don't think it matters) but the answer seems to provided by the WFD. My friend, who is something of an expert on the matter but would prefer to remain nameless, has passed on this information which seems to answer the question.

At this point in time, MATCHED GRIP IS FASTER.

Mangini is much faster with match 1247 compared to his 1126 traditional record.

CURRENT WFD TOP TEN (SINGLES IN 60 SECONDS)
Mike Mangini 1247 (MATCH) 1126 (TRADITIONAL)
Jotan Afanador 1199
Art Verdi 1116 (TRADITIONAL)
Dan Barnat 1106
Sam LaCompte 1096
Eric Okamoto 1085
Johnny Rabb 1071 tie
Brad Broomfield 1071 tie
Matt Smith 1061(TRADITIONAL)
Tiger Bill Meligari 1060

burnthehero

04-11-2006, 06:29 AM

I have to agree with those who have said that it doesn't make that big of a difference. Neither seems to have a very large advantage over the other. However, on the rare occasion that I do play traditional grip, I FEEL as though I can play faster. Something about holding the stick with a traditional grip feels really good to me.

photon

04-11-2006, 12:56 PM

Yes Millerdakiller....the title of the post is "the psychology" of the traditional grip...

This has turned into the "physiology" of the traditional grip.

My original point was that practicing traditional as opposed to matched is less frustrating to me as the hands are doing two entirely different movements...so the constant comparison of my left hand trying to match my right is no longer there.

samthebeat

04-11-2006, 02:18 PM

I couldnt agree more. Getting your hands to match and feel balanced is hard work, its frustrating. I have begun to think it is near imposible to achieve. So you either live with it or you switch.

Traditional grip makes more sense. At the end of day im not symetrical, i have one forearm slightly longer than the other, one thumb slightly longer than the other, so playing trad is just a better in option for me.

Mediocrefunkybeat

04-11-2006, 02:28 PM

I think in purely cognitive terms that in theory matched grip does make a lot more sense. But a lot of things don't make sense. Will you criticise Carmine Appice for his odd 'between the fingers' grip? Well if it works for Carmine then it can work.

I don't think we can universally say 'one grip for all' different people respond to the same situations differently. Such is the same with grip selection.

photon

04-11-2006, 03:19 PM

Yes Mediocre....I'm in no way saying that trad. is superior to matched. I understand the argument that matched is most likely the natural way to play. I'm sure that if I had worked on proper matched finger technique from the time I started playing at 12 years old (with a 20 year break in between) that I wouldn't be switching now at 45. Not having formal instruction I just held the sticks and flailed away....mostly wrists and arms....

Now for me from a psychological perspective I find the process more enjoyable...or should I say less frustrating then constantly beating my head against the wall with matched...it's those damn finger strokes!

mlehnertz

04-11-2006, 04:17 PM

photon

04-11-2006, 04:23 PM

2 lessons in 1971 when I was 10......2 recent lessons in 2006 at 44.....(just started with an instructor 2 weeks ago).

12 years of playing from 12-24 years of age (playing matched grip with poor technique)....then I took a 20 year break when life got in the way.

hookedup

04-11-2006, 04:35 PM

The valid reasons I've read so far are -

It's how I was taught originally.
It's the most comfortable to me.
It looks really cool - and there is validation in this response because it DOES look cool.

Let me ask the question of how many of you are classically taught or have taken many years of lessons with many teachers?

Just to go point for point on this:

-I was originally taught matched, only recently am I even attempting tradtional.
-Like any new technique it still feels weird, and will for a while, but for what I'm using it to learn it's comfortable, but for anything I've played prior to this period it's extremely awkward.
-We're drummers, so we're looking pretty bad-ace no matter which way we hold the sticks. Hahaha. :)

I've had 3 different teachers over the course of my learning. The first one taught me matched. The second one a few years later reinforced matched since I was playing most rock/metal/death, in other words speedy power driven music. Since I was already playing matched, I just went with it. My present teacher has introduced me to the traditional grip in order to expand my techniques in learning different styles of music, and has it helped my matched grip? Definitely. Any additional focus I'm giving to my hands is going to benefit both grips in the long run since they both lead to added control through technique.

And again, I'll repeat, we're drummers. We're looking pretty snazzy no matter what we do.

mlehnertz

04-11-2006, 04:39 PM

This post needs to make it to the "Psychology of Traditional Grip" thread.

What you really mean by 'all the fast players play traditional' is that most of the uber-technical players play traditional. This is for a number of reasons: firstly, their heroes will have played this way; secondly, they will have studied jazz; and thirdly, it looks cool.

Garvin

04-11-2006, 04:55 PM

I fought against switching for years until I actually started studying jazz. It's still a struggle to perform with traditional grip and I am not the most dicsiplined individual in the world, so forcing myself to stick to practicing this way is a perpetual struggle. I think it is important to get this down as someone who considers himself a jazz drummer first and foremost. My two biggest issues are moving around the kit with my left hand in traditional grip and keeping control of my left hand when playing at volume. I've always envied drummers with good traditional technique and consider it a mark of a mature player.

mlehnertz

04-11-2006, 05:13 PM

How does your grip influence your ability to learn new styles?

My present teacher has introduced me to the traditional grip in order to expand my techniques in learning different styles of music, and has it helped my matched grip?

That's just another reason I found switching from traditional to matched as beneficial. I have more reach with less effort. I also think we've been brain-washed into thinking that if we play jazz we have to play traditional grip and that's not true.

I agree that players that have mastered traditional grip are impressive - Vinnie Colaiuta being one of them. It's amazing.

I fought against switching for years until I actually started studying jazz. It's still a struggle to perform with traditional grip and I am not the most dicsiplined individual in the world, so forcing myself to stick to practicing this way is a perpetual struggle. I think it is important to get this down as someone who considers himself a jazz drummer first and foremost. My two biggest issues are moving around the kit with my left hand in traditional grip and keeping control of my left hand when playing at volume. I've always envied drummers with good traditional technique and consider it a mark of a mature player.

Bobhead

04-11-2006, 05:43 PM

My first real teacher taught me trad grip. I had a few main teachers over the years, both classical and non-classical.
I've always stuck with trad and match grips since I saw advantages to both. But MAN if made for long practice sessions out of the books when you have to do everything twice for each grip!!!
I eventually got my left hand faster with trad then with matched (not anymore though).
Psychlogical for me, I need to play trad grip when playing Jazz, for the finesse of it as someone mentioned, and also because what I want to communicate in my head will one transpire or come out of my hands with trad grip. My matched grip hand cannot execute some it.
Maybe its all in my head! But its how I play.

intooder

04-11-2006, 05:47 PM

I play matched, and I have to agree with some previously stated comments that at times traditional does feel more natural especially when playing close-handed on the hats and snare. Most players that switch (and more seem to switch from match to trad. than the other way around), go to trad. for jazz playing. This gets me wondering if there are a lot of match-jazz players out there, and what the advantage to trad. in a jazz context is (volume?? control??)

photon

04-11-2006, 05:49 PM

I agree Garvin that a person ( a non drummer) who sees a player who uses traditional grip would tend to think that it infers some formal training, as most non drummers or those starting out would just hold the sticks in the natural match grip fashion.

mlehnertz

04-11-2006, 06:48 PM

I fell into this category for a few years. I'd play classical matched, rock matched and jazz traditional. I'm not entirely sure when or why I made the complete switch but it was sometime while in college. More than likely it was that I was doing more rock or GB gigs and playing less jazz big band and my traditional grip weakened and I just stuck with matched. Matched grip has never affected my ability to play (or not play) jazz.

Psychlogical for me, I need to play trad grip when playing Jazz, for the finesse of it as someone mentioned, and also because what I want to communicate in my head will one transpire or come out of my hands with trad grip. My matched grip hand cannot execute some it.
Maybe its all in my head! But its how I play.

Jookbox

04-11-2006, 07:42 PM

i can relate. i quit drums for about 10 years and started about a year ago. i got 3 lessons and worked on traditional grip and moeller technique. it was weird at first, but now when it comes to anything moeller related, i'm much more comfortable with trad grip. i think it really was because my mindset went away from my left hand being a mirror image of my right. being right handed, maybe subconsiously i 'knew' my left hand will have a hard time doing what my right could. when i think of my left hand as unique, i got out of this mindset. this is all in hindsight by the way. it literally boiled down to how i held the sticks. i heard thomas lang talk briefly about something similar. its interesting to see other drummers feel the same way.

photon

04-11-2006, 07:49 PM

Ahhh Jookbox now you've hit on the substance of this thread.......

hookedup

04-11-2006, 10:38 PM

I've found a couple contradicting sources when they talk about the position of the left-hand thumb.Vic Firth's site says to rest the thumb on the index finger. (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/articles/wesselsgrip2.html) Fair enough. But in Dave Hughlett's "Understanding Drum Techniques" he says to keep the thumb back since having it so far forward will cause the weight of your grip to shift forward, burying your stick into the drumhead.

Is this just another one of those, "whatever works for you, works for you" aspects of the traditional grip, or is one going to be better in the long run as far as developing control, speed, dexterity, etc?

-Cris

millerdakiller

04-12-2006, 12:43 AM

I do a little of each. My technique in that regard switches based on speed, dynamics, and location of the drum relative to my body.

mlehnertz

04-12-2006, 12:52 AM

While I'm a matched grip fan, I can still tell you that when I play(ed) traditional my thumb rests anywhere from the knuckle of my index finger to the middle joint of my index finger and sometimes it doesn't touch anything at all but "hangs" in space.

RMS

04-12-2006, 12:14 PM

Traditional? or matched? im guessing matched but i dunno.
no i was talking about your trad. grip. But yes you do that with matched as well, even more so.

Stu_Strib

04-12-2006, 12:57 PM

As I understand it the fastest players in WFD all use matched grip!

True, however...

Playing single alternating strokes on a pad isn't the only measurement of speed.

Bonzo

04-12-2006, 03:48 PM

centralzeke

04-12-2006, 04:27 PM

My vote is a definite no. You get the same kind of finger control with both grips.

Sometimes it might seem like that for people that switch to traditional just to try it, because you get a lot of rebound by just opening up the hand and can go pretty fast like that right from the start.

y0avz

04-12-2006, 04:37 PM

Making a long story short.... no.

aahznightsky

04-12-2006, 10:48 PM

Neither is faster. Mangini has a faster matched grip because that's his main grip. As far as Buddy goes ... was his left hand faster than his right?

Bonham to the moon

04-12-2006, 11:52 PM

ya, i would say that there are techniques for each that let you play as fast as your able to.

OZjazzer

04-13-2006, 02:18 AM

True, however...

Playing single alternating strokes on a pad isn't the only measurement of speed.

You're right of course Stu, but it is the only one that is timed and measured. If that's the only game in town that scientifically records speed of players who use both grips then to me at least that answers the question. As soon as we get down to 'I reckon so-and-so' is faster than ..... then there is no real answer. Like the man said 'if trad grip is so much better why not use it with the right hand as well?'

Why am I discussing this .. I don't care ... and it doesn't matter anyway. Must have too much time on my hands - should be practising!

samthebeat

04-13-2006, 04:35 AM

I had a lesson recently, he said my matched grip was fine. It looks fine in mirror too, it just doesnt feel matched. Im a perfectionist by nature so this pisses me off quite frankly.

I agree with pretty much everyone in this thread, and again i am aggreeing its personal and if i something has been doing your head in.......change it. Why not its only gonna make you a better player at the end of day.

Your not gonna loose anything.

mlehnertz

04-13-2006, 04:11 PM

I hate to tell you this then, but your feet are NOT the exact same size.

I had a lesson recently, he said my matched grip was fine. It looks fine in mirror too, it just doesnt feel matched. Im a perfectionist by nature so this pisses me off quite frankly.

Cabazon

04-13-2006, 10:36 PM

I have just recently (4 weeks ago) decided to try out traditional grip after nearly 5 years of matched. I want to see if I like it better or not (when I get it up to par or better than my matched)

When I spoke with my teacher about this, he said he personally prefers matched, but he offered me advice, which might answer the question of "why traditional?" in this thread. He told me something along the lines of "If it feels good, you like it, and it's fun, by all means -- do it!" (relation to thread: People play traditional because they like it. Who cares how many muscles are used in either?)

IDDrummer

04-15-2006, 06:48 AM

I suppose WFD says matched is faster, but I find the biggest difference is in the feel of the beats I play. I learned to play from a tremendous jazz drummer named Honey Voshell, way back in the 70's, so naturally I played traditional grip. I switched over to matched grip when I started playing rock, partly for "reach" and partly for power. To this day, I switch back and forth depending on the feel of a song. A shuffle or swing pattern still just feels better using trad...

As for speed - I'm no speed king with either grip, and I don't have a way to measure my speed anyway, but I can't really tell much difference, subjectively. It's all about feel, to me, not speed.

Class A Drummer

04-15-2006, 08:12 AM

As for speed - I'm no speed king with either grip, and I don't have a way to measure my speed anyway, but I can't really tell much difference, subjectively. It's all about feel, to me, not speed.

Any of you know how much it costs to get one of those things then counts how many strokes you do in a certain amount of time? Or what its called?

Henry II

04-15-2006, 05:19 PM

Is traditional grip faster then matched grip? i mean would buddy rich be able to play as fast or even faster if he played matched? It seems as though all the really fast players play traditional. Do they do it just for comfort?

Mike Mangini holds the WFD record for both matched and traditional grips. His matched grip record is faster. The second fastest, Jotan Afanador also plays matched grip. The third and fourth fastest, Joe Verdi and "Tiger" Bill Meligari play traditional.

Personally, I think that traditional can be trained to be faster because it uses fewer muscles - fewer reasons to create speed robbing tension.

Henry II

04-15-2006, 05:21 PM

One other point: If you could truly generate more speed using a traditional grip, why wouldn't trad. players then just hold both sticks like they hold the left hand? Wouldn't that seem to make sense? Of course it would look funny on the kit though.

I think it's more about the player than it is about the grip. There are amazingly fast players who use both grips.

You probably could play faster with a traditional grip in both hands as long as you're playing on snare. Billy Cobham has played that way. The problem with that, though, is that the advantage to the mechanics of traditional grip is lost when you have to straighten your arm and reach for a sound source, like a ride cymbal or tom.

funked_up

04-18-2006, 04:37 AM

I have been playing traditional grip for about 4 months now, and I find it very comfortable. The strange thing is, is that unlike most people when they find it easier to hold the stick in the left hand at the fulcrum, (for example, Joe Morello, Buddy Rich), I find it alot easier to hold it in a more 'Keith Carlockish' Grip. This meaning holding the stick in traditional grip with my hand very much near the butt end of it. I feel like I have more control that way. This is very strange because lots of bounce is taken away. Shouldn't I feel the other way around??

Tim

spinupspindown

04-20-2006, 10:51 AM

I started out that way but now hold the stick at about 1/3rd of the way up, where the fulcrum is. My trad grip playing evolved as I needed to do different things.

If it's comfortable for you to hold the stick near the butt, go for it.

Stu_Strib

04-20-2006, 11:17 AM

Some guys that use traditional grip and are way back really like the feel of the rebound (i.e., the amount of force required to get rebound is greater, and produces bigger sounding rebounds). But it takes a ton of practice, as the natural pivot point for the stick is much higher up.

A lot of my students in the past think it looks cool or feels good, even though they are doing it completely wrong, which is bad in my opinion. Too many guys use traditional left hand and hold the stick lazy and let it just kind of 'dribble'. A good grip requires lots of practice bad and developing the fleshy part of the thumb. Once you start realizing your thumb does most of the work you really start getting the motion down and can start applying the finger techniques.

In short, don't use a bad traditional grip just because it looks good or because your hand can be lazy. It is a lot of work!!!!!

Mediocrefunkybeat

04-20-2006, 12:01 PM

I second that Stu. Traditional is a tempramental beast, if you get it wrong, you get it very wrong indeed. I learnt the hard way as usual and now have it down fairly well but I should study with a specialised snare marching teacher to get all the really technical stuff down. I play my traditional both ways, I play up the stick going into fills and the like and when I want some backbeat power I hold it further towards the back end.

When I'm playing with my band, I play primarily matched grip, but at home it's traditional.

Auger

04-20-2006, 06:26 PM

I had a lesson last night and, coincidentally, my teacher and I were just discussing this. Well, he was discussing and I was listening anyway, haha.

He said sometimes people prefer to move their fulcrum all the way to the back of the stick to get a dryer sound, but playing this way is much more work, especially when you get into more note-y stuff. He also was saying just how far up the stick you place the fulcrum is also determined by how you play / what technique you're using. Players who use a very rebound-oriented technique, for example, tend to choke up further to accentuate the bounce. He said that, for example, if you watch Buddy, he's almost half-way up the stick sometimes with the left hand. Also, if you compare pre and post-evolution Weckl you'll see the left hand fulcrum much farther up the stick post-evolution once he got heavier into Moeller technique.

I'd say it's probably fine for 2-4 backbeats and stuff, but you should be careful because placing the fulcrum at the back of the stick can cause pain/injury if you don't do it right.

tidge87

04-23-2006, 01:39 AM

Well, i've been playing traditional grip along with matched and i am just wondering wether i am playing traditional grip right when i'm doing rolls or going fast. When you're playing a roll or doing a single stroke roll, do you keep your index finger on the top of the stick while you are playing really fast, or do you just use ur fulcrum (a.k.a. as the webbing between ur thumb and index finger). Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

photon

04-23-2006, 02:19 AM

There is a point where you would go from mainly using your wrists to fingers to achieve a really fast single stroke roll.

I can get it going fairly fast just using the fulcrum with my hand wide open but there is a point you would have to close it up so to speak to achieve more delicate control and hence more speed.

tidge87

04-23-2006, 06:32 PM

what about when ur doing a buzz roll or double stroke roll, do you keep ur fingers over it, because i see dave weckl just letting it go freely.

millerdakiller

04-23-2006, 10:22 PM

it is proper technique when doing high fast strokes to let your index and middle finger off so taht the stick can go further back without you having to move your wrist as much.

Sticktrick

04-23-2006, 11:04 PM

For fast singles you can either use your index/middle finger or your thumb. If you use the thumb, then it is easier and better to let the stick bounce freely without having the index finger above the stick.

For buzz rolls: Only use the fulcrum, NO thumb, NO index finger. Just fulcrum and let the stick bounce. Don't force it. A nice buzz roll needs Weeks or even Years of steady practise.

(by "nice" I mean a buzz roll without ANY accents, so you cannot even hear the change between right and left hand - at all volumes)

millersc

04-26-2006, 05:53 AM

I've been having trouble with getting my left hand with the traditional grip to go as fast as my right. Also having trouble using the fingers. Any tips on this? Thanks.

Mediocrefunkybeat

04-26-2006, 10:39 AM

Tips? Just keep playing it. It sounds patronising and unhelpful, but it really takes some time to get traditional up to the speed of the right. Relax, take it slowly and play normally and eventually you'll find yourself getting up to speed.

Pedro

04-26-2006, 12:05 PM

Stu_Strib

04-26-2006, 12:44 PM

Pedro,

I'm not for or against either way. I play more towards the natural pivot point of the stick but I'm not brave enough to say mine is better than Keith Carlock (just look at the results!)

I was just stating that guys who do use the way back grip probably like to lay into the drum a bit more to get the same amount of rebound. It seems like a logical way to play for a bigger sound.

photon

04-28-2006, 03:29 AM

You see Weckl explain it in his BAck to Basics DVD...there is a point where he goes from wrists to fingers...but then again he is one of the proponents of that finger dancing technique that some other players (such as Buddy) used to frown upon. As Buddy said...
"You can't play like that...it's all in the wrists"

So again a number of different schools of thought on this..............

By experimenting you will find what works for you most comfortably and efficiently

TheSteve

04-28-2006, 03:43 AM

As long as your fulcrum is there you're fine but all your figures should be where they're supposed to be placed. There's a lot of different ways to roll while playing traditional though. All those people who said what they said are right. There's an article in Modern Drummer a few months back that explains all the different tyles of grips. You should check it out.

Ekim

04-28-2006, 05:56 AM

Traditional grip drives me nuts. I try to do it on the practice pad, but I don't have it down well enough to try it on the full kit. I think I need to take jazz drumming lessons.

photon

04-29-2006, 04:55 AM

Weckl talks about that too. When he really wants to lay on the back beat he holds the stick more at the back..but for us mere mortals he recommends that the stick be held at the fulcrum.

JStuart

05-01-2006, 11:21 PM

I recently had a burning desire to study traditional grip as all my favourite players play it. Only after about 4 weeks of playing it, I feel like I've completely mastered it (even though I know I haven't) and I feel I have become a better player because of it too. I now use it full time in my playing except the odd moments where I'll play matched where it is most convinient.

woooooooooo!

Any Comments?

JStuart

05-01-2006, 11:21 PM

Sorry about previous thread, spelling mistake on Traditional.

Jeffo19

05-04-2006, 08:27 PM

As far as speed is concerned. I use traditional grip, and matched, but I can never play as fast using the traditional grip as oppose to matched for me. It seems that with the matched grip, you get to a point where you are mostly using your fingers, while the traditional grip, you are still rotating your wrist, using larger muscles. So, personally, I can not move my left hand stick as fast holding traditional grip.

photon

05-04-2006, 10:32 PM

Hey Jeffo....read some of the earlier posts...Weckl and I believe Bellson and Joe Morello utilize a technique where it's all fingers in the left hand traditional. I've taken baby steps in learning it...but it will take lots of practice....

photon

05-05-2006, 05:32 PM

Well...I'm now a few months in to working with traditional and I can honestly say there is no going back to matched for me. It feels real strange when I try to use match with my left hand now so I would say the transition is almost complete.

Like most I am still having trouble getting my speed going in singles, but I'm working at it slowly and methodically and have noticed a lot of improvement.

For me it's basically been a lot of trial and error and my traditional grip has evolved over the last few months. I don't believe there really is a right or wrong way. It's really a very subtle combination of arm, wrist, thumb and forefinger action working in unison. And the grip will vary depending on what you are trying to accomplish. For fast single strokes I find my thumb becoming more of the prime mover now with the forefinger cradled over top to control the amount of rebound. For power my hand is wide open with the stick moving freely in the fulcrum between the thumb and forefinger with a Moeller motion.

Moving freely around the kit feels very natural. Powerful cymbal crashes with the left hand still feel a bit ackward and I really have to concentrate on rotating the wrist back before striking, other then that I feel my decision to switch was a good one and will utlimately contribute to making me a better player.

RobertLee

05-06-2006, 10:13 AM

I just started w/trad grip and its seems impossible to get my speed up w/out coordination loss. Any suggestions would be great!

Treytrumpet1

05-12-2006, 04:22 AM

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 04:36 AM

Hey man, I think it's cool that you're trying to play, even though it isn't your primary instrument. It never hurts to have something as rhythmic as drums as another instrument to play. When I switched to traditional grip, it was for playing the rudimental marching snare for my high school's drumline. Traditional grip is something you would need a good instructor watching you play a lot as you first learned, so that you do not teach yourself bad habits. Traditional grip is easily played with odd forms and techinques, because somebody shows them how to hold it, but as you first start playing on your own, you develop your own weird prep for each hit or hold it at an obsqure angle, etc. So I guess it has to do with what's the purpose? Are you trying to learn and show them rudiments for something like marching band style drumming, or drumset style? Unless you're planning to play for the jazz band any time soon, I wouldn't suggest just trying all of a sudden to play traditional on drum set. For the time being I'd just say play with what is most comfortable. If you do try traditional, make sure you have someone who has been drumming for long enough to know what they're talking about watch you play or work with you so you do not create bad technique habits. Here's another interesting fact (at least my drumline instructor told me this, when I had a lot of strained muscles in my forearms when I first tried traditional grip seriously)... it only takes 4 muscles to play matched grip, it takes 15 to play traditional! So there's a lot more stretching involved and warming up too.

My single strokes have become quicker in my traditional playing than my matched grip over the past two years that I have marched snare drum for my high school. I still play drumset matched because I have more power and pop into my snare drum when I play rock with matched grip. I prefer traditional for jazz though, because I like to improve and play rudiments around the set traditional, plus it looks cool, haha. If you can, go ahead and try learning traditional so you can choose one or the other, or use both, and choose depending on the situation.

Some of the coolest licks and drum fills aren't neccessarily the fastest, keep creativity and dynamics in mind as well. I'm not sure if I answered your question at all, but I said something, I guess.
Good luck, and rock on,
Rob

Treytrumpet1

05-12-2006, 04:43 AM

Thanks a lot, I appreciate it. I'll just stick with what is comfortable and just try to work up my chops in my left hand. Do you know any speed and/or accuracy building exercises?

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 04:49 AM

The best chop building exercise book I have used, was given to me by my drumline instructor this year. I am a sophmore going to be a junior, and I have marched snare sense my freshman year, so two years now. But I was really struggling with defining and keep my chops consistant for some reason with traditional grip. So my instructor lent me his copy of "Stick Control". It has basically every stick hand to hand coordination in the book. Not neccessarily fun, but if you practice them to a metronome, you'll be flying with double strokes, single strokes and paradiddles in two weeks if you practice only the first page for 30 minutes a day for two weeks. Yeah, sounds like a long time, but if you read the front page it says, "PLAY EACH EXERCISE (two measures) 20 TIMES BEFORE MOVING ON!" So by the time you're down with #1 exercise it's been like 2 minutes, and there's about 25, two measure exercises on each page. I'll try to find you a link to it on Amazon.com or somewhere so you can at least see what the cover looks like. I think it is $10 or $15 for the book? I bought my own copy that weekend he lent it too me because it helped me out so much!

Rob

Henry II

05-12-2006, 04:50 AM

Hello everyone. I am a trumpet player and I used to play drums a few years ago. I'm getting back into it b/c I'm trying to show a friend what I know about playing the drums. Anyway, I am having trouble with speed and accuracy with my left hand. It is hard for me to play diddles and other rudiments with my left hand also. Do you think I should continue playing with my left hand the same way that I play with my right, or should I switch to traditional style? Are there any advantages to traditional style? I know it looks cool, but does it increase speed? Is it easier/harder? Thanks for the help.

For most, traditional takes longer to master. But, based on both my experience and observation of other great drummers, once mastered, pronation of the forearm and wrist associated with the traditional grip is probably a superior mechanical movement to the up and down wrist motion of the matched grip. BUT, this is true only while the elbow is bent and the hand is close to the body, read - while playing snare. When you have to straighten your arm and reach for other drums, cymbals etc., the wrist action of the matched grip is superior. Again, JMHO.

So, if you're trying to learn fast, you're better off with matched grip. If you're in it for the long haul, you should learn both.

As for improving your speed, etc., go to www.tigerbill.com (http://www.tigerbill.com), look for the link to free internet lessons, navigate to the 3 part lesson called "Building Monster Chops." It's all about the Gladstone method, named after legendary Radio City Music Hall percussionist, Billy Gladstone. It is absolutely essential that you master this technique. THEN, AND ONLY THEN, come back and ask about the Moeller method.

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 04:52 AM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1892764040/sr=8-1/qid=1147402204/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7605529-4039108?%5Fencoding=UTF8

That's a link to show you the book I enjoyed learning from. Like I said, not the most entertaining, but to get all the hand to hand coordinations to have fun improving and showing off WITH GOOD TECHNIQUE! This is what I used a lot. So at least you know what it looks like if you look for it at a local music store near you. I purchased mine from a local Guitar Center store.

Rob

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 04:54 AM

Henry II is exactly right man. If you're in it for a long run to actually do it so you can drum, learn both. If you just want to be good for a bit, then forget, then go back to it and forget it, etc. than just stick with matched.

Rob

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 04:57 AM

Hah, Moeller techinique is a lot of fun! :-) Whenever kids just grab my drumsticks and play crappy, I'm like, "Is that your imitation of Moeller Technique?" The just give me a funny look, it's great. I haven't mastered it at a hot tempo yet though, well not consistently at least.

Rob

Treytrumpet1

05-12-2006, 04:57 AM

thanks fellows...you guys have helped.

Henry II

05-12-2006, 05:04 AM

Now, how about a trumpet lesson. I picked up a trumpet one time. No matter what I did, I could only play one note. I don't recall which note, but, if I tried to play a higher or lower note, I could only play exactly one octave higher or lower. WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 05:19 AM

About 4 years ago, when my little sister was in 5th grade, (I was in 6th), she played trumpet in beginning band at the elementary school. She quit after about a month, because I figured out how to play "Hot, Cross, Buns" on the trumpet before her. That was the last time I had practiced on a trumpet. I've tried french horn too... I can play brass, I don't remember any of the fingerings anymore, and I do not have that kind of stamina to blow through an instrument for a long time either, but I have done it before! :-) Your welcome too.

Rob

Class A Drummer

05-12-2006, 05:27 AM

It is not better to play traditional style, nor is it worse. It is mainly a comfort factor. There is no actual advantage i can think of to playin traditional other than comfort and maybe doing the cross stick. If you play matched, you can hit harder, and play on big sets easier. If you are having trouble with your left hand, hit a pillow, it will make it stronger considering there is no rebound.

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 05:33 AM

Your leg works good to, for practicing with no rebound... just wear some thick sweats while your around the house... well it's getting into summer season, so maybe not sweats. But some sort of clothing so you do not bruise your legs too bad. I've always got bruises on my legs to make sure I am stroking rudimental licks and not bouncing them. (Unless the tempo is like 198bpm, like my winter drumline show was!!)

Rob

tentpole

05-12-2006, 05:49 AM

skate4flip

05-12-2006, 06:05 AM

if your right hand is your dominant hand, that might be one reason it seems easier.

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 06:16 AM

It doesn't really matter which hand you use or train, whatever feels comfortable. Although if you can learn both traditional left and right handed, then you can have some bragging rights. I can play basic rudiments right hand traditional, but nothing crazy like flam drags. My diddling right traditional isn't quite the cleanest yet either. Anyway have fun with that.

Rob

zfzgg

05-12-2006, 09:00 AM

Hmm....I still can't see any real advantage that goes with playing traditional on a kit.

I understand the comfort issue. -But it just seems so odd, having the hands learning two completely different techniques.

Also, why is traditional so common among jazz players?

Any in-depth answers to these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Did i just hijack another thread? Ah jeeze. Sorry everyone!

lildrummerman03

05-12-2006, 09:27 AM

No man it's totally cool... I have no theological or textbook answer for you on why traditional is mainly used for jazz, although I will tell you why I personally prefer it. Basically because I am a much better rudimental finess (vaness... spelling?) drummer when I play traditional especially for jazz snare drum licks and improve solos. This helps me play more dynamic with my jazz playing. A lot of times I'll purposely only use a hi-hat, snare, bass, 16'' floor tom and ride cymbal for my jazz playing. This also reduces any temptation to trying to go crazy moving around the kit, and makes me appreciate each and every drum and cymbal and piece of hardware (rim clicks, playing on the hi-hat stand, clicking sticks together, etc). Sometimes I even put the floor tom away!!

Lots of fun drumming for jazz is the creativity it can develop in drum set players, too. So I like traditional grip for jazz because one, I am a much more controlled rudiment and dynamic contrast player. And two because in jazz I try to be the time keeper more than the show boating hard "knock your teeth out" alternative grunge drummer. Also I like playing traditional with brushes for light jazz, it's easier to 'swirl the pot' on the snare for me.

So that's an answer from a guy who isn't just giving you a definition out of a book or from a website. Hope it makes some sense, I'm not trying to convince you or anybody that it's how it should be played, but a way that is optional to play, of course.

Rock on,
Rob

zfzgg

05-12-2006, 10:10 AM

Cool

*learns traditional*

Haha, i'm between teachers atm, The next guy will have a nice box of assorted questions from me to answer :D

zfzgg

05-12-2006, 10:22 AM

What about doing both? At the same time?

syaoran05

05-12-2006, 03:41 PM

Can you play traditional grip with your right hand.Because I've tried playing with my left hand and it was uncomfortable but I tried with my right hand and it was easy and comfortable.So is there a rule against playing that way(I'm kinda kidding on that last remark)?You might ask this but I play rock and some funk.

the first time i tried trad with my left it hurt and then i thought it was easier on the right. well it was THEN. now trad with left is more comfy than with my right coz of practice. now my left trad feels smooth and trad on the right a little stiff. comfort comes with practice dude.

about the "rule", there aint any, there are just guidelines on how to grip a stick to make it work its best. i do 16th notes with a trad on my right hand on hats... sometimes when doing "jazz" grooves i use trad on both hands :P

Martal

05-12-2006, 07:48 PM

So,how about anyone giving some good exercises for developing Tradi. grip?

Drummer Karl

05-12-2006, 10:48 PM

I had the same problem in the beginning...i`m right handed and I wanted to learn traditional grip so I started to experiment with it...first with my left hand, it hurted...
then with my right hand, so with my stronger hand and it was so confortable...but in the end I realized that trad grip is played with the left, so I practiced hard and now it is almost my main grip!

so you have to train with your left hand, one day it will be confortable, it is just practicing!

Karl

Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan

05-13-2006, 06:28 AM

What about doing both? At the same time?
Billy Cobham has done this. Pretty flashy...

ernehudspe

05-13-2006, 06:49 AM

Can you play traditional grip with your right hand.Because I've tried playing with my left hand and it was uncomfortable but I tried with my right hand and it was easy and comfortable.So is there a rule against playing that way(I'm kinda kidding on that last remark)?You might ask this but I play rock and some funk.

Don't worry about rules when your playing drums. Worry about what you sound like. I could be wrong...and I'm sure somebody will correct me...but, If you can play anything Steve Gadd can play and sound as good as he and countless others....then you can make your own rules. Peace, out...Buddy

Class A Drummer

05-13-2006, 06:58 AM

if you are a righty, it will probably be uncomfortable on the ride cymbal. If you are just no good at matched then try out traditional. If you are just doing traditional for the sake of doing it, dont if you are going to use your right hand.

tentpole

05-13-2006, 08:26 AM

lildrummerman03

05-13-2006, 08:48 AM

I think looks kind of dumb (more on marching snare rather than set) to play both left and right tradtional style. Although, it is cool be able to do both just for the sake of it! It's fun experimenting with other techniques and grips, you never know what you may come up with? You should always redefine and perfect the grip you use for gigs or recording or any type of peforming, but it never hurts just to goof around and see how many different ways you can hold sticks and still affectively play something like paradiddles!

Rob

lildrummerman03

05-13-2006, 08:58 AM

It's totally cool dude, you only learn from asking. Better sooner than later!

Rob

Class A Drummer

05-13-2006, 06:26 PM

Ok,I'm just trying it out just cause.
But i did leave something out i forgot. I would learn how to do it with your right hand first if it is easier. I did the same thing. By doing so, i learned how to hold it more comfortably in my left hand. i made sure i did the same thing in my left as i did in my right hand.

i would play both in the traditional grip at the same time to make sure i was doing it correct.

millerdakiller

05-15-2006, 01:38 AM

I can actually play Right handed traditional and left handed traditional, and can play complex rudiments with good control. It's just a matter of training.

Some issues with right handed traditional:

Hi-hat. It's hard to get a variety of sounds because of the position of your stick relative to your left hand(I'm talking when you play crosshanded.)

Reach. IT's also a lot more work to move from snare to floor tom.

Advantages. Ride patterns. I feel a lot more comfortable playing ride patterns(excluding the use of the bell, wich is another disadvantage.). I don't know why, i just do.

I think if you play double matched, which I do occasionally. IT's called german traditional./

Jeff Almeyda

05-15-2006, 02:04 AM

Thomas Lang is left-handed yet he plays traditional grip with his left hand. It works for him so why not give it a shot.

Drummin Drew 1

05-15-2006, 02:17 AM

Its better to to play traditional with the left hand because its harder to get to the ride cymbol. Plus sooner or later people are gonna laugh at you. It doesnt look good at all.

alberto_marconi

05-15-2006, 02:33 AM

I know the question can sound weird. But this is what I mean:
if I start learning how to play traditional grip (despite not being interested in applying it for actual playing situations) will it be helpful for my playing? Can it improve my versatility as a drummer?
If it does, then I would have to work hard on it, because it feels totally ackword when I try.
Well, if anybody understood, answers are welcome. Thanks in advance!

ajgdrums722

05-15-2006, 03:12 AM

Good thread, I'm in the same situation. I started playing when I was 6 years old and my first teacher told me to play trad. grip with my left hand but I switched over when I went to my second teacher because it was never comfortable for me. Now that I've been playing for over a decade, I'm wondering if there's actually a reason why people play traditional, or if it's just about comfort.

Raymond Bloom

05-15-2006, 03:22 AM

I switched for about a half year to trad grip as my main grip, mostly because of the impact of Jojo Mayer, I understood that there are things that I just can't play the way he does because of me playing matched, it is just different, it has different apmlitude, motion. You know, I got comfortable with trad very fast and now my left hand has the same amount of coordination as my right and I can play with equal power, tho my left hand is faster (!!) on a boucier surface like snare drum, practice pad, etc than my right hand! I still have some problems with Moeller with my right hand but I'm really happy with my left hand. For now I really can't understand how could I play matched?! Traditional grip is just so comfortable!

zachg

05-15-2006, 03:37 AM

You should definatly learn how to play tradional. Once you get used to it, it feels really comfortable. Ive been playing traditional since about a year after I started and ive been playing traditional ever since.
I wanna start to get comfortable with matched grip again though because the more you know the better

ajgdrums722

05-15-2006, 03:44 AM

What types of things does traditional grip allow you to do that matched doesn't? Does it allow for more speed or accuracy or is the main idea just about comfort?

Drummer4Jesus

05-15-2006, 03:58 AM

I used to play only matched grip for over two years and I have recently switched to traditional in the last 4 or 5 months. I think it has definitely influenced my playing. I have recently learned the Moeller technique and the Buddy Rich one handed roll. I believe that it was a much better idea to switch to traditional because it just feels more comfortable to do these techniques and these techniques were originally performed in traditional grip. I would have to agree with the rest of the guys that Jo Jo Mayer, Dave Weckl, and Steve Gadd, along with the many other artists have made the switch much easier. Keep trying to play in traditional grip, it improved and influenced my playing and am sure it will yours.

vince

05-15-2006, 10:27 AM

if I start learning how to play traditional grip (despite not being interested in applying it for actual playing situations) will it be helpful for my playing? Can it improve my versatility as a drummer?
If it does, then I would have to work hard on it, because it feels totally ackword when I try.

Well, alberto, I switched to trad a year ago and some stuff really seems easier to me :
all the rudimental workout, especially double stroke rolls ! I find that singles are a little easier with matched grip but I'm still training in trad grip, to have my singles as good as using matched grip.
Yes, I think it could reallly help your versatility as a drummer, simply because you're learning another technique ! After that, you'll get a different feeling which is very comfortable... ( at least for me lol )
If you want to get this quickly, you have to play every time you can trad grip ( well, i know, stupid advice... ). I get it doing doubles slowly, with a metronome, etc...
good luck !

Mediocrefunkybeat

05-15-2006, 11:00 AM

oaks

05-15-2006, 12:22 PM

Matched grip has been proven to be the most effective grip(in a ancient MD mag) but Traditional offers natural sublties that may you have seen jo jo mayer use.
Overall Traditional uses a different group of muscles to Matched which may result in improvements to your Matched strength, sthamina etc.
It's up to you - personally i think it looks cool too!

-Oaks, Out

syaoran05

05-15-2006, 02:33 PM

What types of things does traditional grip allow you to do that matched doesn't? Does it allow for more speed or accuracy or is the main idea just about comfort?

well for me, traditional grip is to feel, as matched grip is to control.

if you dont get it, well lets just say that with traditional grip i feel better doing snare stuff [not necessarily faster or more accurate, it actually just feels better] while with matched i feel more in control and feel like youre just airdrumming...

dude, its hard to explain... but im sure of one thing.. learn traditional well and practice it always, even if you wont use it.. it works wonders.

Raymond Bloom

05-15-2006, 07:58 PM

What types of things does traditional grip allow you to do that matched doesn't? Does it allow for more speed or accuracy or is the main idea just about comfort?
For me it is that range of motion, matched grip is more paralel, also the wipping motion in trad grip feels more natural than in matched for me.

actually I think that here is the answer of what is trad grips advantages:
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Jojomayermoeller.html
:-)

photon

05-15-2006, 08:21 PM

Well for me, there was just something about traditional that felt comfortable and natural to me. I just started back playing again about 6 months ago after a lengthy hiatus from drumming. I was strictly a matched grip player all those years. When I did start back again I determined to start learning all of those things I neglected when I was younger, rudiments, technique, reading. Through this site and other resources I started to study and try out the various match grips (french, german, american) and realized that when I was younger I was hardly using any finger control at all, just punding away with wrists and arms. I came to the realization just how uncoordinated my left hand fingers were and spent many frustrating hours at the practice pad because of it. One day a few months back I thought why not give traditional a try as it's a whole different motion for my left hand, maybe I would have more success with it. Right off the bat some things were easier, particularly the rudimental stuff. Getting around the kit and cymbal crashes have been more work but it's not so bad that I'm thinking of going back to matched, my speed is almost there.

Fast singles have been the biggest challenge, but my singles sucked in match anyway because I never really worked on them in the past. I'd say I am at the point with traditional where I have already surpassed my single speed with matched.

The Moeller motion just started to evolve naturally for me as I continued to work on traditional.

Bottom line is that I am very happy I made the switch. I would recommend those who are having trouble making progress with their weaker hand to give it a try. But be patient...after about 3 months I feel like things are really starting to get there, and I have found my technique to constantly be evolving. There are a number of schools of thought on the traditional grip, I would recommend trying them all to determine what works best for you. I am excited to see what I will have accomplished a year from now.

Buhaina

05-16-2006, 05:05 AM

What types of things does traditional grip allow you to do that matched doesn't? Does it allow for more speed or accuracy or is the main idea just about comfort?

It allows me to play a marching drum worn with an old-fashioned sling. Otherwise, I can play anything with matched-grip as well as trad grip. I learned drums with trad and switched to matched a long time ago and never looked back. One thing I like better about matched is being able to freely switch from right hand lead to open and back. Its all a matter of personal preference.Experiment with both grips and use the one you like best.

jollymosher

05-16-2006, 05:36 AM

People who play traditional grip and people that play match grip are the same! If you play match and dont plan on joining your schools marching band. there is not reason to switch to traditional. I play match and i love it. Im fast, and my strokes are powerful and get the feel and sound that i need. If your the same way no need to switch. as for people that have earned the title "Grip Nazi", back off.When you hit my snare, you get the same sound i do when i hit my snare. How we get there is no ones problem.

Cabazon

05-16-2006, 10:43 PM

People who play traditional grip and people that play match grip are the same! If you play match and dont plan on joining your schools marching band. there is not reason to switch to traditional.

I switched to traditional, and I like it better. If liking something is no reason to do it, there's no reason to live.

Most high school bands (at least in my area that I've seen) are playing matched now, rather than traditional.

millerdakiller

05-17-2006, 12:12 AM

Its better to to play traditional with the left hand because its harder to get to the ride cymbol. Plus sooner or later people are gonna laugh at you. It doesnt look good at all.

Or not. No one has ever laughed at me for playing like that...

what are you talking about? heh

sir_willy

05-17-2006, 03:51 AM

What types of things does traditional grip allow you to do that matched doesn't? Does it allow for more speed or accuracy or is the main idea just about comfort?

Well, I personally find it quite a bit easier to do the Johnny Rabb single handed roll. Other than that I havent found much use for it. I guess its a little more confortable after you get used to it, but I still prefer the matched.

finnhiggins

05-17-2006, 03:57 AM

When you hit my snare, you get the same sound i do when i hit my snare. How we get there is no ones problem.

You might actually like to try that experiment, you'll be surprised. When I was at music school I regularly watched entire classes of 30+ people play the same snare and no two of them ever sounded exactly the same. How you hit makes a huge difference to what sound comes out.

EDIT: Answering the original question, it's worth learning every technique you can. When I play with the hands I use four distinctly different left hand grips and three different right hand ones. When I play with the feet I use three different foot techniques. That's not for show-off value or anything, I've actually just found as I've developed technically that it's the most efficient way to expand your playing. The trick is to develop exercises that change techniques from being separate things you have to practice as such into exercises that flow between techniques in a continuous pattern. So for the hands (in matched grip) I move from playing from the arms using a kind of rotational movement (thumbs facing towards me, sticks moving inwards) down through playing from the wrist in German grip (thumbs face each other, sticks move away from me) to playing from the fingers in American grip (thumbs turn upwards again, fingers control the rebound) and finally into french grip (wrists move closer together, controlling from the first finger join instead of the second) - being able to run through that smoothly should certainly help your ability to play fast strokes from the fingers in the middle of wider-spaced, slow-moving grooves. For bass drum foot I practice playing continuous strokes heel-down, moving to heel-up, moving to heel-toe and then back again.

Traditional grip is just another kind of control and another feel, it has many very practical uses. It's much easier to play the bells of cymbals in trad grip, for a start, and I find it easier to mute toms with the left hand in a traditional grip than in matched. Plus you can get different snare sounds by changing the angle of impact up towards 90 degrees for a less aggressive tone, it's great for jazz comping.

IDDrummer

05-17-2006, 07:30 AM

When you hit my snare, you get the same sound i do when i hit my snare. How we get there is no ones problem.

I immediately thought the same thing as finnhiggins - no two people sound exactly alike. The way you strike the drum makes a world of difference!

As for trad vs. matched - I learned trad first, so I'm not sure how hard it would be to learn later in the game. I think it would be worthwhile though; I get a very different feel when playing trad grip than matched. My left hand is still weaker technique-wise than my right when playing matched, though I don't think anyone but another experienced drummer would notice...

xkevinx

05-17-2006, 07:46 AM

i just started working on traditional about a month ago, and really haven't given it any serious practise, but already i find it easier to do some things in traditional. this is even after playing matched for 7 years. I find it's very easy to play light dynamics in traditional because, as said above, you can just adjust the angle and height of your wrist with ease. i use this most when doing light jazz because i haven't developed alot of volume with this grip yet. The biggest problem i'm having is with moving around the kit. matched grip is great for fluid motion between toms and cymbals, and i can move between the hihat and ride in an open fashion instead of crossing arms, which is benefitial in some situations. even if you never want to play traditional, you should still learn it. more tools to get the job done. and of course, it just looks cool :)

Pedro

05-17-2006, 01:55 PM

If you're used to play matched and you're pleased with it, then it's just senseless to invest a lot of time in the traditional grip. Ok, it's never useless, but it wil not improve your time or filles or anything.

Many people think they can play better traditional is because they just don't control the matced grip. (Ok, sometimes it's more confortable while sitting, but I'm talking about technique). Because te traditional seems easier to control for certain things, they think tey can play better.

You can do everything with both grips. (Ok, both have their advantages)
You can play as soft with matced as you can play with traditional. Not only many drummers but also many classical players proved it. But with matched grip it's somtimes more difficult to controle the rebound.

On the other hand.....I actaully like to know how to play both :-) and I also play both, but my main is matched.
I thougt a while ago to switced to traditional, but now that I've learned to controle the silent and presice parts with matched....I just don't want to switch anymore :-).

Pedro

05-17-2006, 01:57 PM

I immediately thought the same thing as finnhiggins - no two people sound exactly alike. The way you strike the drum makes a world of difference!

As for trad vs. matched - I learned trad first, so I'm not sure how hard it would be to learn later in the game. I think it would be worthwhile though; I get a very different feel when playing trad grip than matched. My left hand is still weaker technique-wise than my right when playing matched, though I don't think anyone but another experienced drummer would notice...

Yes, but what he really means is that it's the sound you get out of it that counts. If you reach it with traditional, matched or by playing with your toes. It's the same. The most important is the result.

IDDrummer

05-17-2006, 05:29 PM

Yes, but what he really means is that it's the sound you get out of it that counts. If you reach it with traditional, matched or by playing with your toes. It's the same. The most important is the result.

That could be what he means, I don't know. But your final statement is right on the money. Grip doesn't matter if you get the result you want!

Kaz

05-18-2006, 07:07 PM

There's a value to learning every technique, even if you're not going to actually use it. Look at Dom Famularo, he learns techniques for the sake of learning techniques so that he can usefully teach them and be an effective teacher. The only thing I would advise you to look out for if you're teaching yourself traditional is to make sure you teach yourself it properly. It's not the most self-explanatory technique in the World and sometimes a mistake early on can lead to a lot of tweaking later on.

There's a different feel and psychology to using traditional. I use both traditional and matched (traditional primarily) and I come out with different things with each grip. It makes a surprising difference. It's good to know these things even if you're not going to use it.

I would disagree, however that some things can 'only' be done in one grip, each grip has it's advantages and disadvantages but you can do everything with both, even if it may be slightly trickier with one or the other.

i completely agree. i've tried playing traditional...though i do right hand trad left american (just was trying it out) and it allowed me to just...quite honestly, think differently. i wanted to play different sticking and accenting patterns than i would with matched grip. it's like infinite dynamics, with the obvious and easy ability to play staticly with both hands.

traditional just seems impossible for my left hand; i cannot get a comfortable stroke at all.

Peter J

05-18-2006, 09:09 PM

Hi Guys

I think it is important to remember the origin of traditional grip--Back during colonial days the marching drummers carried thier drums off their shoulders which caused the drum to tilt downward and made it impossible to play matched on such a tilted surface--They adjusted by using the grip in the left hand that we now call Traditional Grip--The point being there is no difference in how one holds the stick--comfortability and facility is the key--The only reason I believe it makes sense to play both grips is that each grip helps in developing the weaker hand--trad grips helps with matched and vice versa--there is no limitation to expressing your idea using one grip over the other. Just my opinion

Kaz

05-18-2006, 09:13 PM

^ then this is to say that many drummers have a placebo effect in trad. grip as opposed to matched.

Raymond Bloom

05-18-2006, 09:34 PM

will trad grip help to your left hands matched grip? Probably, but BE AWARE!
when I switched to trad grip, after two months I just couldn't play matched at all! And my trad grip wasn't as good as my matched was...! I was faster on the snare drum but I lacked coordination and a bit power. So be carefull, practice your matched grip also

Pedro

05-18-2006, 11:24 PM

Did anybody know that te the origin of the traditional grip is actually French and not american? (I didn't :-) )

maybe not important, but worth telling :-)

Cephalic

05-19-2006, 05:31 AM

Can anyone explain to me or show a video or something like that on the proper way to do double strokes in traditional grip? Thanks.

concussionist

05-19-2006, 06:00 AM

I think its good to practice both styles. when i first started playing Trad. grp in marching band, i sucked really bad. It felt awkward and my wrist couldn't stant it very long. But once i got used to it, it was pretty easy.
I just think its good to add some variety to your playing so u can b more flexible.

Mediocrefunkybeat

05-19-2006, 10:05 AM

There are some over on the Dave Weckl page on Drummerworld. Basically it's a 'release catch' for double strokes. Release on the first stroke and catch it again after the second. Then repeat.

jamsjr44

05-19-2006, 06:09 PM

There are some over on the Dave Weckl page on Drummerworld. Basically it's a 'release catch' for double strokes. Release on the first stroke and catch it again after the second. Then repeat.

and also make sure you find the right balance point for your stick, so that it is doing much of the work and your basically just guiding it. Weckls video Back to the Basics is how I learned my double strokes.

beatsMcGee

05-19-2006, 08:24 PM

There are some over on the Dave Weckl page on Drummerworld. Basically it's a 'release catch' for double strokes. Release on the first stroke and catch it again after the second. Then repeat.

on that page of his when he talks about the way he does double strokes by popping it to the side i think that is kinda of a wasted effort.... i mean obviously he knows his stuff, but could he just use his fingers more and lossin his grip to get a louder second stroke.... just wondered about that

photon

05-19-2006, 09:27 PM

Hey beatsMcgee you're referring to that new motion he uses for his right hand...?

Paradiddle my snizzle

05-19-2006, 10:22 PM

I feel that the "dave weckl snap to the side" has a lot of power to it and that means more power than the "jojo open close" which is kinda the way BeatsMcGee is describing. I therefore believe that you have to learn both techniques, and a smooth transiscion between them because then you will have complete control of the accent on the second stroke.

But the first way to learn a double stroke roll is to just practise to regular strokes with each hand - because then you will have complete control over the first stroke in the double stroke.

Cephalic

05-19-2006, 11:17 PM

Thanks for the advice, everyone.
Also, is there a proper way to hit cymbals with traditional grip when playing set?

This isn't too important, as I mainly just need to play traditional for marching band, but I mess around with it sometimes on my set and it always seems kind of wierd to hit the cymbals with traditional grip.

Jookbox

05-20-2006, 12:28 AM

the same way you would hit with matched grip. the stick is just pointed in a different direction. use a glancing stroke.

alberto_marconi

05-20-2006, 01:00 AM

Mediocrefunkybeat

05-20-2006, 12:37 PM

on that page of his when he talks about the way he does double strokes by popping it to the side i think that is kinda of a wasted effort.... i mean obviously he knows his stuff, but could he just use his fingers more and lossin his grip to get a louder second stroke.... just wondered about that

May have been quoting the wrong video. Certainly try the Derrick Pope one, that has the doubles on left hand traditional on it I'm certain.

Mediocrefunkybeat

05-20-2006, 12:40 PM

I certainly think so. Definately working both grips can help one grip or the other, as long as you remember to practice both. I made the mistake of learning trad and neglecting matched grip. When I went back to practice matched it felt awkward, but I've worked it back to more or less where it was. Trad grip helps you think outside of the box a little more, so if you're frustrated musically; give it a go. Worth a try.

Paradiddle my snizzle

05-20-2006, 01:51 PM

lol, oh yeah, it says traditional in the title - dont i look stupid now... maybe i should just keep quiet about it and hope nobody noticed, lol...

syaoran05

05-22-2006, 03:16 AM

Hey guys, I got some really interesting answers. Thanks. I think we all end up learning something when we discuss this kind of issues.

But now that i've heard some opinions, let me get a little more "technical":
I understand that playing trad involves other muscle groups not used when playing matched. So, my question is: does the fact of working on this muscles benefit your playig even when you're NOT playing trad? Can it benefit your feel? Or your balance?
Well, my first answer would be YES. But I can't play trad, and I don't really know what I'm saying. So... it's up to you. Tell me what you think!

well i think it does have some benefits even if you do not choose to play trad. well trad does work up the other muscles that aret used much in matched so i guess it will help you in being faster yet more controlled. maybe it'll help you play the floor tom with your left over the right arm that's playing the snare. or insane things like that. but point is faster and more precise.