Fast twich and slow twich muscle fibers

[abe]

I've heard many versions about how resistence training affects drumming etc. Lately, I feel that there is a little confussion in my head :)


Some people say that weight training have helped their technique directly. Other say that it's dangerous for speed.
So I try to analyze if exercising is reducing my drumming results.


1. For ALMOST all muscle groups that we us in drumming sticks are fairly light thing

2. Even very busy playing doesn't require extreme endurance like in sport.


There is 3 basic energy systems:
1)ATP-PC
2)Anaerobic System
3)Aerobic System

There is 2 basic muscle fiber types:
1)slow twich - oxygen ''oriented''
2)fast twich - not oxygen ''oriented'' except IIA

This is very simplified list.

We all are born with different natural fast/slow fiber ration in our muscles. Still there is thin guys with evidently strong aerobic system and bigger slow twich ration in muscles like Jojo mayer or Tim Waterson and also well built guys with quiet strong anaerobic system and with more fast twich muscle fibers like Seth Davis, Art Verdi and Buddy Rich and all of them can\could play very fast and for long periods of time.

So how much should I worry about my exercising, if I do proper stretching? Does it really affects negatively drumming? Does push ups, pull ups etc. really do harm for hand speed?

[cnw60]

I'm no expert - but my understanding of this is that you won't hinder your ability to play fast (or slow, loud, soft, etc...) by working out and building strength as long as you continue to practice those things as you build your strength.

It's not like you're going to stop playing drums - work out for a year, get totally ripped - and then pick up the sticks again - right?

Stretching to maintain flexibility is always a good idea if you're doing any kind of aerobic or anaerobic training, but that's just good practice and doesn't really have anything specifically to do with drumming.

[zambizzi]

WHO says that weight training will make you slower?

A well developed muscle will move faster than one that isn't as well developed.

I'm not talking about filling up on steroids and training for Mr. Olympia, I'm just saying that basic weight training could only help...if done correctly and in moderation (like anything else.)

Slow-twitch muscle fibers are developed w/ heavy weight training and fast-twitch are developed with lighter forms of training with higher numbers of repetitions. But, what you're really training here is your nervous system...so drum practice is going to get you your best results.

I don't believe for a second that your weight training regimen is making you *slower*....unless you manage to injure yourself, of course.

[abe]

WHO says that weight training will make you slower?

A well developed muscle will move faster than one that isn't as well developed.

I'm not talking about filling up on steroids and training for Mr. Olympia, I'm just saying that basic weight training could only help...if done correctly and in moderation (like anything else.)

Slow-twitch muscle fibers are developed w/ heavy weight training and fast-twitch are developed with lighter forms of training with higher numbers of repetitions. But, what you're really training here is your nervous system...so drum practice is going to get you your best results.

I don't believe for a second that your weight training regimen is making you *slower*....unless you manage to injure yourself, of course.


I must say that I totaly agree with you about nervous system conditioning. Since very different guys can play really fast, it should be only matter of right technique burned in ''muscle memory''

Thought I'm bit confussed about your slow-twich muscle fiber definition. Wasn't slow twich muscle fibers the ones who need a lot of oxygen in energy releasing? All oxygen ''oriented'' muscle fibers are endurance fibers; you can built them by active cardiovascular training. Fast twich muscle fibers are bodybuilding target.

[zambizzi]

I must say that I totaly agree with you about nervous system conditioning. Since very different guys can play really fast, it should be only matter of right technique burned in ''muscle memory''

Thought I'm bit confussed about your slow-twich muscle fiber definition. Wasn't slow twich muscle fibers the ones who need a lot of oxygen in energy releasing? All oxygen ''oriented'' muscle fibers are endurance fibers; you can built them by active cardiovascular training. Fast twich muscle fibers are bodybuilding target.

Hmm...maybe it's backwards...I'm getting old ;) I haven't done any reading on this since I was in high school, when I was an avid weight-lifter.

Regardless, it's very hard to build muscle and you're not going to explode into some kind of hulking mass with giant guns, preventing you from swinging your drum sticks. Most of us "average guys" could work out regularly our whole lives and just look "average"...but fit and tone. Fit and tone muscles are better developed and will naturally contract faster than undeveloped muscles. So, you're only benefiting yourself by having a healthy workout routine, not hindering.

[abe]

Hmm...maybe it's backwards...I'm getting old ;) I haven't done any reading on this since I was in high school, when I was an avid weight-lifter.

Regardless, it's very hard to build muscle and you're not going to explode into some kind of hulking mass with giant guns, preventing you from swinging your drum sticks. Most of us "average guys" could work out regularly our whole lives and just look "average"...but fit and tone. Fit and tone muscles are better developed and will naturally contract faster than undeveloped muscles. So, you're only benefiting yourself by having a healthy workout routine, not hindering.

Yeah I'm aiming at balanced exercising and I want to do also some resistance training. Since I'm also dancing and my body has naturally more endurance fibers, I thought that some resistance training would be needed.

Thanks for replies!

[zambizzi]

Yeah I'm aiming at balanced exercising and I want to do also some resistance training. Since I'm also dancing and my body has naturally more endurance fibers, I thought that some resistance training would be needed.

Thanks for replies!

Same here. I probably never would have developed tendonitis if I had been working out over the past year...so I'm now trying to build some strength up again. I hurt myself when I was 18 (29 now) doing a very, VERY heavy dead-lift, and that injury still bothers me today (lower back). So, I intend to keep a fairy steady, high-repetition workout schedule...probably keeping all sets between 12 and 20 reps. I doubt I'll ever risk doing the really heavy stuff again...there's just no point, anyhow.

Good luck! Weight training can be a fountain of youth!

[JWM]

IMHO, the best exercising for drumming is ... drumming!

That said, we should work out as a lifestyle choice that supports drumming. Let's face it, feeling healthy and energetic will help to fuel our motivation and endurance for serious practice.

[abe]

IMHO, the best exercising for drumming is ... drumming!

That said, we should work out as a lifestyle choice that supports drumming. Let's face it, feeling healthy and energetic will help to fuel our motivation and endurance for serious practice.

Hope my questions didn't sound like question about shortcuts in drumming, because it wasn't.

I just want to hear some experience with resistence training: does it affects the drumming in negative way. Just like you said I want to support my drumming, but still progress in my physical shape (moderately of course).

[Jeff Almeyda]

IMHO, kettlebell training is the best system for improving performance in a chosen endeavor. At age 40, I am in better shape that most 25 year olds and I train with kb's exclusively.

Go to www.dragondoor.com and look for kettlebells and/or Pavel Tsatsouline.

Here's an article that argues for kb's being the bet overall fitness training tool.

http://www.russiankettlebells.com/kb_dominates.html

[gshuda_22]

Um yeah, the guy that said a well developed muscle will move faster is WRONG. Any of you who think more muscle leads to more speed are completely on the wrong track. A little muscle is helpful, but a large muscle will not move quickly (just like your wrists wouldn't move faster than your fingers).

[zambizzi]

Um yeah, the guy that said a well developed muscle will move faster is WRONG. Any of you who think more muscle leads to more speed are completely on the wrong track. A little muscle is helpful, but a large muscle will not move quickly (just like your wrists wouldn't move faster than your fingers).

So, which is it? I said a "well developed" muscle, not a "large" muscle...they're not necessarily the same thing. You're not backing this w/ very much logic, to be frank.

As I understand it, more muscle fibers a muscle has, that are trained w/ resistance, will contract faster than a comparatively undeveloped muscle. This may be why Mohammad Ali could hit faster and harder than, say, the CPA who did his taxes.

I only know what I've read about muscle development. I guess those silly sports medicine docs that write for Muscle & Fitness are just full of bologna. I better quit working out!

[zambizzi]

IMHO, kettlebell training is the best system for improving performance in a chosen endeavor. At age 40, I am in better shape that most 25 year olds and I train with kb's exclusively.

Go to www.dragondoor.com (http://www.dragondoor.com) and look for kettlebells and/or Pavel Tsatsouline.

Here's an article that argues for kb's being the bet overall fitness training tool.

http://www.russiankettlebells.com/kb_dominates.html

I think I've seen these before...what advantage would they offer over free-weights? Is the recommended training regimen different?

[Jeff Almeyda]

I think I've seen these before...what advantage would they offer over free-weights? Is the recommended training regimen different?

The second link I gave is an article on why kettlebell training is superior. Here's my take on it: The workout is whole-body, there are no isolation exercises. The exercises do not allow any one muscle group to go to failure so the cardio factor is off the charts. 5 minutes of kb swings with a 35 pounder will make a newbie puke. No joke.

Most weight training routines are essentially bodybuilding routines, a series of isolation exercises for various muscle groups. In sport and motion, isolation exercises do not necessarily lead to an increase in muscular coordination and performance. In short, if you want to look like a bodybuilder then train like one. If you want to be the guy who kicks the bodybuilders butt then kb training is for you. Many UFC fighters like Ken Shamrock are using kb's now.

KB training increases coordination because you are forced to move a weight in 3-d space throughout all planes of movement. It is not compressive to the spine as most weight lifting exercises are. It strengthens the joints especially the wrists.

People may say: But how can a 35 lb weight give me a workout? The answer is acceleration. Would you rather have a 100 lb barbell roll over your foot or a 35 lb weight fall on it from a height of 6 feet?

Seriously, nothing can prepare you for what a 10 minute kettlebell workout will do to you. I have taken guys who could squat over 400 lbs and made them collapse in 6 minutes with one arm kettlebell snatches for reps.

You can go to youtube and search for kettlebells to see them in action.

[abe]

The second link I gave is an article on why kettlebell training is superior. Here's my take on it: The workout is whole-body, there are no isolation exercises. The exercises do not allow any one muscle group to go to failure so the cardio factor is off the charts. 5 minutes of kb swings with a 35 pounder will make a newbie puke. No joke.

Most weight training routines are essentially bodybuilding routines, a series of isolation exercises for various muscle groups. In sport and motion, isolation exercises do not necessarily lead to an increase in muscular coordination and performance. In short, if you want to look like a bodybuilder then train like one. If you want to be the guy who kicks the bodybuilders butt then kb training is for you. Many UFC fighters like Ken Shamrock are using kb's now.

KB training increases coordination because you are forced to move a weight in 3-d space throughout all planes of movement. It is not compressive to the spine as most weight lifting exercises are. It strengthens the joints especially the wrists.

People may say: But how can a 35 lb weight give me a workout? The answer is acceleration. Would you rather have a 100 lb barbell roll over your foot or a 35 lb weight fall on it from a height of 6 feet?

Seriously, nothing can prepare you for what a 10 minute kettlebell workout will do to you. I have taken guys who could squat over 400 lbs and made them collapse in 6 minutes with one arm kettlebell snatches for reps.

You can go to youtube and search for kettlebells to see them in action.

I checked the links. One my relatives has at least 5 of them. I didn't know that they're so versatile. And also I didn't know the name of them. Thanks.

[zambizzi]

The second link I gave is an article on why kettlebell training is superior. Here's my take on it: The workout is whole-body, there are no isolation exercises. The exercises do not allow any one muscle group to go to failure so the cardio factor is off the charts. 5 minutes of kb swings with a 35 pounder will make a newbie puke. No joke.

Most weight training routines are essentially bodybuilding routines, a series of isolation exercises for various muscle groups. In sport and motion, isolation exercises do not necessarily lead to an increase in muscular coordination and performance. In short, if you want to look like a bodybuilder then train like one. If you want to be the guy who kicks the bodybuilders butt then kb training is for you. Many UFC fighters like Ken Shamrock are using kb's now.

KB training increases coordination because you are forced to move a weight in 3-d space throughout all planes of movement. It is not compressive to the spine as most weight lifting exercises are. It strengthens the joints especially the wrists.

People may say: But how can a 35 lb weight give me a workout? The answer is acceleration. Would you rather have a 100 lb barbell roll over your foot or a 35 lb weight fall on it from a height of 6 feet?

Seriously, nothing can prepare you for what a 10 minute kettlebell workout will do to you. I have taken guys who could squat over 400 lbs and made them collapse in 6 minutes with one arm kettlebell snatches for reps.

You can go to youtube and search for kettlebells to see them in action.

You've definitely piqued my interest, thanks Jeff!

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

The second link I gave is an article on why kettlebell training is superior. Here's my take on it: The workout is whole-body, there are no isolation exercises. The exercises do not allow any one muscle group to go to failure so the cardio factor is off the charts. 5 minutes of kb swings with a 35 pounder will make a newbie puke. No joke.

Most weight training routines are essentially bodybuilding routines, a series of isolation exercises for various muscle groups. In sport and motion, isolation exercises do not necessarily lead to an increase in muscular coordination and performance. In short, if you want to look like a bodybuilder then train like one. If you want to be the guy who kicks the bodybuilders butt then kb training is for you. Many UFC fighters like Ken Shamrock are using kb's now.

KB training increases coordination because you are forced to move a weight in 3-d space throughout all planes of movement. It is not compressive to the spine as most weight lifting exercises are. It strengthens the joints especially the wrists.

People may say: But how can a 35 lb weight give me a workout? The answer is acceleration. Would you rather have a 100 lb barbell roll over your foot or a 35 lb weight fall on it from a height of 6 feet?

Seriously, nothing can prepare you for what a 10 minute kettlebell workout will do to you. I have taken guys who could squat over 400 lbs and made them collapse in 6 minutes with one arm kettlebell snatches for reps.

You can go to youtube and search for kettlebells to see them in action.

...You say this just as I'm about to get my old weights from the loft. I don't really have much choice with what I use, but I think I'm going to start a personal training routine. I'm a large guy and naturally muscled, but it's something I've never really taken advantage of. I suppose I peaked at the age of about fifteen; which was a few years ago now! I saw what three-times-weekly gym workouts did to my cousin, who is a similar build to me (slightly shorter, and skinnier, but equally muscled) and it really is remarkable.

Kb's may well be the way forward, but for now it'll have to be dumbells until I get another opportunity to buy gear.

[Jeff Almeyda]

...You say this just as I'm about to get my old weights from the loft. I don't really have much choice with what I use, but I think I'm going to start a personal training routine. I'm a large guy and naturally muscled, but it's something I've never really taken advantage of. I suppose I peaked at the age of about fifteen; which was a few years ago now! I saw what three-times-weekly gym workouts did to my cousin, who is a similar build to me (slightly shorter, and skinnier, but equally muscled) and it really is remarkable.

Kb's may well be the way forward, but for now it'll have to be dumbells until I get another opportunity to buy gear.

That's cool, you can still do some of the kb exercises with dumbells. Check out the kettlebell snatch on youtube. It can be done with a dumbell and it will smoke you.

[zambizzi]

Here's a demo video:

http://beauty.expertvillage.com/videos/kettlebell-snatch.htm

My first reaction was; "oh yeah...done incorrectly that could cause some serious damage all over the body..."

I'm sure there are many benefits...but I'm a little wary because weight training w/ bars and dumbbells are more controlled motions. I tend to do very slow repetitions in a very controlled manner. I'd want someone who's experienced w/ these kettlebells to train me so I don't end up in traction! :D

Very interesting, however.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

That's cool, you can still do some of the kb exercises with dumbells. Check out the kettlebell snatch on youtube. It can be done with a dumbell and it will smoke you.

If I can find the space (I have a very long wingspan) I'll give that a go. I just had an upper body workout and it HURT. It's been a very long time.

[Jeff Almeyda]

No matter which program you follow, here are a few things that have helped me as far as drumset playing:

Make sure you seek balanced development around the joints. Do a pulling exercise for every pushing exercise. Do ab and lower back work as well.

Compound exercises are better than isolation ones.

Do lots of high rep leg work

Don't do tons of barbell bench presses, they are killer for shoulder health (hard on the cuff).

Do movement drills and flexibility training including stretching.

Train more like a gymnast or martial artist than like a bodybuilder.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Question for you Jeff. Would high-tension training be recommended? I heard a story that Bruce Lee used to train by literally tensing all his muscles whilst in a standing position and repeat this as a routine. I have no idea whether or not this would work; any ideas? I'm looking for muscle tone rather than mass here, although a little mass wouldn't go amiss.

[zambizzi]

Compound exercises are better than isolation ones.


I agree w/ you on everything but this. Isolation exercises will hit areas that compound movements will not. One good example are wrist curls and reverse wrist curls. I will typically use a dumbbell and go very slowly, with light weights. I let the dumbell roll down to my finger tips (opening the hand), and then curl the hand back up into a fist, curling the weight. This has helped me tremendously as far as wrist flexibility and getting better control of my fingers.

Sorry, not trying to split hairs here, I just think there are just as many benefits to isolation work, especially for smaller muscle groups, like the forearms, calves, etc.

I *definitely* agree - don't train like a bodybuilder unless you *are* one. Excessive heavy lifting greatly raises the potential for injury and won't help much, as far as drumming. I'm still living with a lower-back injury that is now 11 yrs. old...I've accepted it as permanent.