Open-Handed Drumming

[Spencer709]

I am a right handed person but when I first picked up the sticks, hitting the hi-hats with my right hand in a cross-over fashion just wasn't compfortable. I've been now playing 7 months using the open handed style and keeping time with my left hand. Should I continue this way? It feels the most compfortable. And I feel if I try to play the conventional way, I'll have to learn ALL over again. Any open-handers in here? What are the advantages? disadvantages?

[MattRitter]

Hey, Spencer

Search this forum for threads about open-handed drumming. A few months ago, a bunch of us discussed this topic at length, covering everything from the origins of it to our opinions about the pros and cons of it. Best of luck!

Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com

[h3r3tic]

Hey there! :D

There's absolutly nothing wrong in playing open-handed. I myself tried to play open-handed a few months but then I quit. But just like you said, I never felt very confortable crossing my arms and just like yourself, Im a righty. So I' trying to play open handed again ;)

It feels a lot more confortable playing open-handed (in my case, right hand on ride and left hand on hats) It is taking some time to make my left as good as my right but believe me it's is way better than it used to be.

In my opinion I think there's only advantages to play open... there are no desadvantages (at least that's what I think)... for example:

->by not crossing your arms you don't have to "twist" your body to cross your arms when playing on the hats, which means you get a much better and more confortable posture

-> your creativity can grow dramatically by being able to play other parts of the drumset while maintaing some stuff your doing with you left side, for example: you can add toms while playing a basic rock beat with your left hand on the hats....

->When hitting some crashes during a song you don't have to "miss" the hi-hat notes like when you're using your right hand on the hats and then you have to reach for the same hand for a crash cymbal.

So to be hoinest with you.... I think you shouldn't play crossed since your confortable playing open.

I myself m trying to get confortable with playing open-handed. And I am getting cofortable everytime I practise and play that way ;)

[Raymond Bloom]

If you feel comfortable (yes, that's the way it's spelled c-o-m-f-o-r-t-a-b-l-e) continue playing open-handed! Although I think that the old fashioned cross arm style is better for overall playing if you're a righty! That's just my philosophy, I've been always doing things with the idea ''symmetry is boring''

[h3r3tic]

There's absolutly nothing wrong with playing crossed over, I'm still playing crossed but most of stuff I do is opened...

You have great player who still play crossed from jazz to death metal. For example, Virgil Donati, Jojo Mayer, Steve Smith, Derek Roddy, Dennis Chambers(plays sometimes opened... I guess...but I saw some stuff of him playing opened), Tony Royster Jr, Billy ward, I just naming a few...

I think in my opinion the key to whether to play open or crossed is feel... The same goes for thoise who play matched or traditional grip...

But I'm still trying to play as much open as I can...although there are some stuff that I'll cross over

[mrchattr]

There's certainly nothing wrong with playing open-handed...but it would not be a bad idea to learn cross-over, either. The more you are able to do comfortably on the drums, the better you will be, because you will be able to get out of any situation you get yourself into.

[Deathmetalconga]

I am a right handed person but when I first picked up the sticks, hitting the hi-hats with my right hand in a cross-over fashion just wasn't compfortable. I've been now playing 7 months using the open handed style and keeping time with my left hand. Should I continue this way? It feels the most compfortable. And I feel if I try to play the conventional way, I'll have to learn ALL over again. Any open-handers in here? What are the advantages? disadvantages?

I assume you also have your ride on the left, close to the hats? If you do, then we are exactly the same. I have been playing open-handed for 23 years and I believe it is the most comfortable, ergonomic and sensible way to play. No one crosses their hands to eat, drive, type, open doors, use tools or play any other instruments. Even crossed players play open handed when they get a chance - notice how the ride cymbal is always to their right.

The disadvantages that I see are picking up after some fills. If I end the fill with the left hand, it is tricky to bring the right hand around to hit a crash.

The advantages are that your right hand is free to wander around the set while you left hand holds down patterns with ride, hats, snare, etc. If you're right-handed, as I am, it's good to have your dominant hand on the snare, as the snare is the heart of the drum set and the dominant hand more readily executes complex hand motions. Some people will say that leading with the non-dominant hand works the non-dominant hand harder and you may have trouble keeping up with driving rhythms, but I don't buy it. Indeed, working the weaker non-dominant side of the body seems like a good idea.

Another approach to open playing is putting the ride on the right and the hats on the left. This promotes ambidexterity, which is another level of advacement. I haven't explored ambidexterity at all. Plus, I like having the hats close to the ride - it seem logical to me the same hand should play them both.

[fourstringdrums]

The disadvantages that I see are picking up after some fills. If I end the fill with the left hand, it is tricky to bring the right hand around to hit a crash..

That's why you try and mentally plan ahead as you're doing your fill so you can use the sticking that will allow you to end on a right if need be.

[aboylikedave]

The disadvantages that I see are picking up after some fills. If I end the fill with the left hand, it is tricky to bring the right hand around to hit a crash.



I play open and enjoy it as I am a leftie playing a rightie set up and when I need to just end rolls on a double, usually not a problem However I can't see it as anything other than a disadvantage that my left hand has to line up with my right foot in lots of grooves. MAtching a hand and a foot of the same side is undoubtedly easier.

Or, Deathmetal conga does it realy get as easy with time?

[Wavelength]

I can't see it as anything other than a disadvantage that my left hand has to line up with my right foot in lots of grooves. MAtching a hand and a foot of the same side is undoubtedly easier.

Pedaling the hi-hat while riding with the opposite hand is easy enough once you get the hang of it, and the same thing works with the left hand and the right foot, too.

[Deathmetalconga]

I play open and enjoy it as I am a leftie playing a rightie set up and when I need to just end rolls on a double, usually not a problem However I can't see it as anything other than a disadvantage that my left hand has to line up with my right foot in lots of grooves. MAtching a hand and a foot of the same side is undoubtedly easier.

Or, Deathmetal conga does it realy get as easy with time?

I have always struggled with it. As fourstrings says, thinking it through helps. But you are right, sometimes it is easier if your snare and bass are played on the side side of the body. Snare and bass patterns are usually interrelated and it seems to simplify things for me if the snare and bass are on the same side of the body.

I also like keeping things close together. Playing open makes it easier to have the snare, hats and ride near each other.

[aboylikedave]

But you are right, sometimes it is easier if your snare and bass are played on the side side of the body. Snare and bass patterns are usually interrelated and it seems to simplify things for me if the snare and bass are on the same side of the body.



Do you mean hi hat and bass? Snare and bass are OK as they are both dealt with by my right side when playing open handed.

I notice this mnost when playing fast BD/HH accents (BD/HH open followed by SD/HH closed - 'It aint over till its over' type thing) -its much easier doing this crossed.

[Deathmetalconga]

Do you mean hi hat and bass? Snare and bass are OK as they are both dealt with by my right side when playing open handed.

No, I mean snare and bass. When you play open, in most cases, you are playing with the bass with the right foot and the snare with the right hand.

[Spencer709]

Yes I play my ride/hi-hat with my left hand; and snare with my right hand. Bass Drum with Right foot also.

[PineyplayParadiddles]

For me the advantages are that I feel comfortable, I can come come up with unique patterns etc. Plus it looks cool I think.

Disadvantages for me are that I like spashes near my hats, as opposed to over my rack toms, and because I have my ride just next to my hats the placement options are limited. That and it is hard for me to play fast 16ths cleanly because my hihat stand is not close to my snare drum. I've tried putting my double pedal on the other side of my hihat pedal, but it puts the hihats in front of my 8" tom.

[Oertis]

I've been playing for a year, crossed, and I just started playing open-handed. It's a little different, but my both my hands are pretty equal, so switching isn't a matter of getting over the weakness as it is getting used to it. I have my ride on the right, hats on the left, and switch between them. I like this better, because I think it centers the drumset around the snare more. If you're trying to get used to the change, I suggest that you focus more on hitting the snare and bass drum, and just let whichever hand's on the hats or ride just do it's own thing; if you think about it, it'll mess up. But that's just me.

[grannydrums]

I have a remote hi-hat and it is positioned behind my snare, slightly overlaping it, and the ride is above that.

So I play open handed using my right hand on the hats. Means that the three things i hit most often are there in front of me, easy to reach with either hand. freaks my teacher out, he is a bit of a stick in the mud, but he has admitted that it has lots of advantages, especially those sixteenth patterns between the hats and snare.

[BassDriver]

For a righty, playing open-handed is often a way to improve strength in the left hand.

[Malti]

For a righty, playing open-handed is often a way to improve strength in the left hand.

I started out open handed for that very reason. It also felt more comfortable. Now that I am working with an instructor he has me playing crossed. I switch between the two. Don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. On the one hand (no pun intended), I think it makes me more versatile. On the other, by not choosing a method and sticking to it, I may never become proficient at either.

[Ian Williams]

Some time ago, I was reading an article on Tony Richards - Former WASP drummer, on the first two albums. He used to play, hi-hats on the right side, left hand on the centred snare, left foot on 1st bass drum, right foot on 2nd bass drum / hi-hats. He also highlighted that many drummers (7 out of 10) that have tried his kit, founded it very uncomfortable to play.

Interesting...

[jivadayadasa]

I started out open handed for that very reason. It also felt more comfortable. Now that I am working with an instructor he has me playing crossed. I switch between the two. Don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. On the one hand (no pun intended), I think it makes me more versatile. On the other, by not choosing a method and sticking to it, I may never become proficient at either.

Hi Malti, I am very curious as to why your teacher "has you playing crossed" and if he/she is very insistent about you not playing open. I personally would stick with open, especially if you are at all comfortable with it from the start. I have met people, including instructors, that don't want to have to deal with "translating" the left and right hand duties when teaching. It has also occurred to me that they feel very uncomfortable, dare I say intimidated, because they themselves cannot play/demonstrate grooves open and therefore feel inadequate.

I am a language teacher and have seen something extraordinarily similar among my colleagues. Many times I have seen pride get in the way of learning under the guise of "stick to traditional ways" etc... If you don't feel supported with open handed playing, look elsewhere for encouragement. I think you will find that the most self actualized players and teachers out there will embrace your approach, if not share it, you'll be glad you did! If you would like some contacts for pros that advocate this approach, you can PM me and I'll hook you up.

Just my two cents.

[grannydrums]

I you should get the teacher to give you a very good reason why you need to learn to play cross handed. It could be that he thinks that playing open handed is slowing you down or making you less co-ordintated, but it is more likely that he does not know how to translate his lessons to open handed playing. If that is the case--get another teacher.

[zambizzi]

I started out open handed for that very reason. It also felt more comfortable. Now that I am working with an instructor he has me playing crossed. I switch between the two. Don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. On the one hand (no pun intended), I think it makes me more versatile. On the other, by not choosing a method and sticking to it, I may never become proficient at either.

It sounds like he wants to be able to provide stickings and patterns for you and this keeps it easy for him to relay that information and demonstrate it to you?

I think you should definitely continue to pursue both! Nothing bad can come of working your coordination to its greatest potential.

Right now, I'm considering either buying a remote hat stand or dedicating a little time each night at practice, to playing open-handed. Honestly though, I'm leaning toward the remote hats so I can keep the hats and ride on the right-hand side. I might even play two pair of hats and keep the existing hats and stand on the left.

So many options!

[Malti]

The first time I went in and sat down to play with my teacher (open handed), he simply told me to do it the other way. Being the compliant student that I am, I did what I was told. Don't believe we even discussed why other than some mention of moving around the kit. I just got finished practicing (with my new Zildjian cymbals Santa brought me btw) and dangit, I play so much better open handed. Next lesson I'll ask him about it. Thanks guys!

[jivadayadasa]

Glad you got some new cymbals! Enjoy them!

[joshranwest]

I play both. I will start a song open handed, play the ride (which is on my right) with my right hand, go back to playing open after hitting the hats with my right hand quickly. If I feel like it I will play crossed for a few measures after that. I like to switch it up. I am told this is ambidextrous drumming. I do this live, and the people that ARE watching me are either thrilled, puzzled, or they think "this guy doesnt know that the hell he is doin!" lol.

[jivadayadasa]

I made the switch two months ago, time flies, but I haven't played open in front of an audience yet. I definitely agree with an obvious but great point that H3r3tic posted earlier: the feel is what is important if making a conscious decision to switch back and forth.

I did jam the other day with some folks and have to say it was a real wake up call. The other night I had to play louder and faster and longer than I had practiced. Even though I thought I had practiced enough open-handed and was in good enough shape to go for it and lead with my left, I had to revert to crossed a bunch times for the sake of the music.

A drummer friend told me I was probably expecting too much too soon; I think he was right and now I guess I'm just glad to have been able to play open as much as I did. It definitely has changed what I practice now - Back to basics and playing the tempos that killed me Sat. night.

[jivadayadasa]

I play both. I will start a song open handed, play the ride (which is on my right) with my right hand, go back to playing open after hitting the hats with my right hand quickly. If I feel like it I will play crossed for a few measures after that. I like to switch it up. I am told this is ambidextrous drumming. I do this live, and the people that ARE watching me are either thrilled, puzzled, or they think "this guy doesnt know that the hell he is doin!" lol.


Josh, I like your site and your music. You have a lot of talent! I have friends in Atlanta that I will visit in the Spring; maybe we'll catch you in Athens some night.

Jiva

[brady]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the 'play open-handed' recommendations. Definitely find a teacher willing to let you and encourage you to play open-handed.
My old teacher made me play grooves from Realistic Rock both ways (along with fills to ensure I was really nailing the grooves). Unfortunately I had to move before I finished the book; I made maybe halfway through with him. But it did give me an excellent foundation to my open-handed playing which, admittedly, I don't use nearly often enough.
To take the skill even further, I plan on tackling Gary Chester's New Breed book soon.

[BillBachman]

I'm all for working out dexterity and building technique & control, but ultimately it is good to lead with your hand that's dominant. If you get a remote hi hat you won't have to cross over and all that time relearning the same thing open handed can be spent learning something new.

[jivadayadasa]

I'm all for working out dexterity and building technique & control, but ultimately it is good to lead with your hand that's dominant. If you get a remote hi hat you won't have to cross over and all that time relearning the same thing open handed can be spent learning something new.

Awesome post! ;-)



plenty with twenty

[Deathmetalconga]

It sounds like he wants to be able to provide stickings and patterns for you and this keeps it easy for him to relay that information and demonstrate it to you?

I think you should definitely continue to pursue both! Nothing bad can come of working your coordination to its greatest potential.

Right now, I'm considering either buying a remote hat stand or dedicating a little time each night at practice, to playing open-handed. Honestly though, I'm leaning toward the remote hats so I can keep the hats and ride on the right-hand side. I might even play two pair of hats and keep the existing hats and stand on the left.

So many options!

It is very advantageous to have the hats and ride on the same side of the set and as close to each other as possible. If you are already playing right hand hats and ride, it is better to move your hats to the right side - even if it means using a remote cable - than it is to try to learn to play left hand hats and ride.

What changes, if any, would you make to your toms, though?

[ccsimms]

i'd say do both as much as you can. open handed may not be completely accepted in the drum community yet. but when both your hands are equally badass and can keep time, people will be jealous.

[pearlvmx]

keep it up if it is comfortable.

i am right handed and have played crossed for years, however, i am purchasing a new set after selling my old one and have not played for a few years. i am really considering "remoting" my hihat to the right side by my ride or more centrally on my kit (though i have already purchased my hihat stand). playing open is very comfortable and you can do things with the toms while keeping time on the hats without get tangled or contorted. the only issue i can see is when/if you do more intricate patterns using both hands on the hihat... but i guess if you've been keeping time with your left hand for so long, it will be easier to execute.

[BillBachman]

the only issue i can see is when/if you do more intricate patterns using both hands on the hihat... but i guess if you've been keeping time with your left hand for so long, it will be easier to execute.

That's the issue with having remote hats all the way on the right side of the kit, your left hand can't really get to them so you're once again limited for playing 16th patterns and such.

[jivadayadasa]

i'd say do both as much as you can. open handed may not be completely accepted in the drum community yet. but when both your hands are equally badass and can keep time, people will be jealous.

Yeah, don't wait for it to be accepted in the drumming community. People have been playing this way for decades yet not that many players use this approach. If it works for you, go for it. Anyone who tells you you can't or shouldn't play open should be avoided. I have already seen this "jealousy factor" - and I'm just getting started!

I really hope you will weigh what some of the good folks have said here, try out different ideas, and choose what YOU feel works for you. Then seek out individuals that inspire you and support your approach.

[pearlvmx]

That's the issue with having remote hats all the way on the right side of the kit, your left hand can't really get to them so you're once again limited for playing 16th patterns and such.
yeah, you are limited if it's on either side. i like how yours are centered above your snare. i am really considering it but, i already have a hihat stand and it's just waiting for hats (which i am purchasing mid february). i may end up just sticking with my traditional set up.

[The Bassist]

I've been playing drums for about two and a half years now, and I started open-handed and have been since most of the time, though I'm also just starting to learn traditional grip playing cross-over. I'm willing to bet most drummers who think that cross over is better or whatever started doing cross over so for them, playing open handed means reassigning the roles for each hand making it uncomfortable. When I started I didn't know that cross-over was what drummers were doing and thought that I'd want more sontrol on the snare for ghost notes and stuff.

Being open-handed, it also seemed to come out of it me leading with my left hand on rolls, so when I end a fill, it's usually (any fill with an even number of strokes) with my right hand, giving my left hand time to go over to the crash. Also, being open handed the whole time, my left hand seemed to align itself with my right foot for the bass drum. Sure, it may seem to make sense that right foot goes to right hand, but I really don't think that is the case. For cross over players, even you probably couldn't do hi-hat accents or anything right off the bat in sync with your bass drum. I honestly feel that hi-hat accents are more based off of your left foot moving up slightly when you hit the bass drum anyways.

So yes, if open-handed if comfortable, stick with it, just try to learn how to play all the same beats a cross-over player can. There should be no physical reason your left hand, with training, can't do exactly what your right can.

[jivadayadasa]

So yes, if open-handed if comfortable, stick with it, just try to learn how to play all the same beats a cross-over player can. There should be no physical reason your left hand, with training, can't do exactly what your right can.

No reason at all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrd5UeDJB7g&feature=related

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Josh, I like your site and your music. You have a lot of talent! I have friends in Atlanta that I will visit in the Spring; maybe we'll catch you in Athens some night.

Jiva

I second that! Great music, really cool! Keep it up!
Casper

[joshranwest]

Josh, I like your site and your music. You have a lot of talent! I have friends in Atlanta that I will visit in the Spring; maybe we'll catch you in Athens some night.

Jiva

THANK YOU so much!! Let me know when you plan on comin out! I appreciate that so much!

[pbassdrums]

Some time ago, I was reading an article on Tony Richards - Former WASP drummer, on the first two albums. He used to play, hi-hats on the right side, left hand on the centred snare, left foot on 1st bass drum, right foot on 2nd bass drum / hi-hats. He also highlighted that many drummers (7 out of 10) that have tried his kit, founded it very uncomfortable to play.

Interesting...

Very cool.. this is exactly how I play. It's basically a left handed drum kit setup for open hand.

When I first started none of the usual set ups felt very natural or comfortable - wasn't a skills or limb independence thing, but more like I was fighting against something rather than embracing it. It took a lot of trial and error and random kit arrangements but finally figured out my left foot is dominate. I've always been ambidextrous (can write with both hands) so really came down to figuring out a layout that worked with my feet.

I've got dual BDs now but when I first started I kept my single BD set up like a normal right handed double pedal kit and played with my left foot via the slave pedal. Hi hat and ride are on the right, toms are setup like a left handed kit. I only use 1 snare so if I ever need to add a 2nd that'll be interesting.

I've now added an aux closed hi hat and ride on the left (basically mirrors the right) so I've got pretty much any possible snare-HH-ride setup available to me now, but still drive everything with my left foot.




(just joined - found this post via google)

[The Groovekat]

I'm all for working out dexterity and building technique & control, but ultimately it is good to lead with your hand that's dominant. If you get a remote hi hat you won't have to cross over and all that time relearning the same thing open handed can be spent learning something new.



Your point is valid, but remotes hats are a scurge on drumming and should never be considered as a 'open handed' option. If as a drummer you wanna play open handed, then learn the proper way or not at all.

[The Groovekat]

That's why you try and mentally plan ahead as you're doing your fill so you can use the sticking that will allow you to end on a right if need be.


Big mistake. Mental planning can only lead to mistakes. Just gotta learn to start and end fills with either hand and if your cymbal setup doesn't accomodate this then it's time for some changes. It's all gotta flow without thinking. That's one thing I know I can state as fact as a drummer.

[The Groovekat]

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[Deathmetalconga]

Your point is valid, but remotes hats are a scurge on drumming and should never be considered as a 'open handed' option. If as a drummer you wanna play open handed, then learn the proper way or not at all.

Who says what's the "proper" way? Some people would say that playing open is not the "proper" way in the first place!

I have played open handed for nearly 30 years (left hand hats and ride, right hand snare). However, for typical crossed players, they simply could not play open unless they have a remote hat.

I think remote hats could be an excellent alternative for a standard crossed drummer. They at last could have their right hand playing hats and ride on the right side of the set. It could take a little getting used to next to the floor tom, but nothing as difficult as re-teach feet or hands.

[Dedworx]

I am a right handed person but when I first picked up the sticks, hitting the hi-hats with my right hand in a cross-over fashion just wasn't compfortable. I've been now playing 7 months using the open handed style and keeping time with my left hand. Should I continue this way? It feels the most compfortable. And I feel if I try to play the conventional way, I'll have to learn ALL over again. Any open-handers in here? What are the advantages? disadvantages?

i put in bold what to me is the key to your question. if you feel comfortable playing this way keep doing it.

theres no disadvantages. and anyone can do it, just like you will be able to play right hand lead if you put the time into it.

i really do think ambidexterity is something anyone can obtain if they put the time in to getting comfortable playing with their weaker hand as lead. obviously it would take a long time to catch up to your strong side if you're already awesome and have been playing for many years. but it can be done.

having played 7 months it might be a good idea to try to play things both open on the left and open on the right? it could make you into an ambidextrous player very early on and you'd build up both sides pretty evenly while still having a favoured side.

just a thought.

[BillBachman]

Your point is valid, but remotes hats are a scurge on drumming and should never be considered as a 'open handed' option. If as a drummer you wanna play open handed, then learn the proper way or not at all.

I agree about remote hats not being so sweet, that's why I invented the remote speedy hat that actually works like a hi hat should! When you move your hats toward or all the way to center you are drumming open handed the whole time. And unlike having a remote cable hat all the way to the right, this way both hands can play the hats really easily.

[harryconway]

......but remotes hats are a scurge on drumming and should never be considered as a 'open handed' option. If as a drummer you wanna play open handed, then learn the proper way or not at all.

Bill Bruford might dis-agree......

[Dedworx]

wow bill's set up is interesting. wouldn't he miss have some toms above the snare though? just in terms of the movements of your body, being able to go forward above and then to either left or right. using circular motions to get around all/most of your drums?

none of its a knock though, i really dig innovators in music and drumming.

[The Groovekat]

Who says what's the "proper" way? Some people would say that playing open is not the "proper" way in the first place!

I have played open handed for nearly 30 years (left hand hats and ride, right hand snare). However, for typical crossed players, they simply could not play open unless they have a remote hat.

I think remote hats could be an excellent alternative for a standard crossed drummer. They at last could have their right hand playing hats and ride on the right side of the set. It could take a little getting used to next to the floor tom, but nothing as difficult as re-teach feet or hands.


Thing is, I myself was a 'typical crossed player' for 10 years until I switched at 19 years of age. It can be done, by anyone with enough commitment.

Maybe I'm being a bit hard on remote hats but I just feel that having your hats so far away from the snare can only lead to hardships and limitations that just wouldn't occur if the left hand lead option is pursued. If a person feels they simply don't have the time or patience to make the switch but still really wanna play open then they should at least use the speedy hat things that BillBachman has invented so as to have the hats near the centre and not all the way out with the ride.

[Deathmetalconga]

Thing is, I myself was a 'typical crossed player' for 10 years until I switched at 19 years of age. It can be done, by anyone with enough commitment.

Maybe I'm being a bit hard on remote hats but I just feel that having your hats so far away from the snare can only lead to hardships and limitations that just wouldn't occur if the left hand lead option is pursued. If a person feels they simply don't have the time or patience to make the switch but still really wanna play open then they should at least use the speedy hat things that BillBachman has invented so as to have the hats near the centre and not all the way out with the ride.

You have a valid perspective here. The hats, snare and ride all have a close relationship and it makes sense to keep them together. Ideally, someone will play with these three components close to each other and putting them all within easy reach of the same hand is very advantageous. That's the best way of playing open handed and it's how I learned from day one.

If someone has played crossed for a long time, however, I think that moving the hats over to the right (by the ride) with a remote hat, is the next best way to enjoy the benefits of open-handed playing, as you wouldn't have to entirely re-learn your assigned hand roles. But that may mean the hats will be farther from the snare. On the other hand, I've seen some crossed players that have a HUGE vertical distance between the snare and hats. Moving the hats to the right would increase the horizontal distance between the hats and snare, but it would probably decrease the vertical distance. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has actually done this.

[dcoi]

No reason at all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrd5UeDJB7g&feature=related

Wow! thank you so much for that video, i have never seen much of Simon Phillips playing and that just blew my mind! Would you happen to know if it is from a dvd or something of the like?


I am a naturally left handed drummer, however my first drum teacher started me off playing right handed and failed to notice that i lead with my left hand on all fills.
A few years later when i started with a new drum teacher he noticed that all my fills started with my left hand and asked me to experiment with playing open handed, i now use this as my preferred style however i feel fairly comfortable playing both ways but still lead all my fills with my left hand which i sometimes think is a major hindrance to my speed as my right hand is closer to the next tom.

[toddbishop]

...I believe it is the most comfortable, ergonomic and sensible way to play. No one crosses their hands to eat, drive, type, open doors, use tools or play any other instruments. Even crossed players play open handed when they get a chance - notice how the ride cymbal is always to their right.

It may be more comfortable for you, but the other merits are debatable. It could also be argued that playing open-handed also "crosses", but in another, maybe more problematic way than just having to make a little reach to hit the hi-hats. The role of each limb is not arbitrary; when the instrument became standardized into its modern state over the course of 40 or so years, the big, important, closely musically coordinated elements- the lead hand and the bass drum- fell naturally on the same side of the body. The weak side got the following hand and the relatively undemanding hi-hat. With the open handed approach, that foundational ride hand/bass drum relationship is split to opposite sides of the body; this seems to be a fundamentally weaker coordination scheme than the standard one.

[harryconway]

If someone has played crossed for a long time, however, I think that moving the hats over to the right (by the ride) with a remote hat, is the next best way to enjoy the benefits of open-handed playing, as you wouldn't have to entirely re-learn your assigned hand roles. But that may mean the hats will be farther from the snare. On the other hand, I've seen some crossed players that have a HUGE vertical distance between the snare and hats. Moving the hats to the right would increase the horizontal distance between the hats and snare, but it would probably decrease the vertical distance. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has actually done this.

You mean something like this?

[jivadayadasa]

Wow! thank you so much for that video, i have never seen much of Simon Phillips playing and that just blew my mind! Would you happen to know if it is from a dvd or something of the like?


I am a naturally left handed drummer, however my first drum teacher started me off playing right handed and failed to notice that i lead with my left hand on all fills.
A few years later when i started with a new drum teacher he noticed that all my fills started with my left hand and asked me to experiment with playing open handed, i now use this as my preferred style however i feel fairly comfortable playing both ways but still lead all my fills with my left hand which i sometimes think is a major hindrance to my speed as my right hand is closer to the next tom.

Check out Simon's website and ask about more videos and dvd's of his in the questions/answers section. I'm not sure why sometimes you find people to be critical of Simon - just jealous perhaps?

http://www.simon-phillips.com/cms/

I lead with my right when I go right and lead with my left when I go left. On my current set, that means right lead for descending fills, left lead for ascending fills. That's what sticking is for - practice makes permanent and if you practice the sticking you need for that sort of thing, muscle memory is what leads you, not mental speculation or "thinking" about what has to be done to lead with a certain side.

I myself am making steady, albeit slow, progress with this approach. For me it is a fun challenge and extremely rewarding. I also believe that you will most likely make the best progress doing what is natural and comfortable within the bounds of what might be generally accepted as "reasonable technique".

Have fun with it and post comments about your progress. I for one really enjoy talking and hearing about it without the useless banter of how viable, proper, impossible, or important this approach is. Not trying to convert anyone, just diggin' the camaraderie!

[Deltadrummer]

The role of each limb is not arbitrary; when the instrument became standardized into its modern state over the course of 40 or so years, the big, important, closely musically coordinated elements- the lead hand and the bass drum- fell naturally on the same side of the body. The weak side got the following hand and the relatively undemanding hi-hat. With the open handed approach, that foundational ride hand/bass drum relationship is split to opposite sides of the body; this seems to be a fundamentally weaker coordination scheme than the standard one.

This is a really good point, and I can add that as a teacher, I can see how this relationship of right hand-right foot, left hand-left foot works out. This is the obstacle that many seem to over look. I will not discourage even a beginner student from working open-handedly. But ultimately, it is the dominant foot-dominant hand connection that lets the groove settle in.

On the other had, I have found that often advanced coordination exercises are easier to do left hand lead. The left hand creatively stimulates the right side of the brain. At some point down the line, to really grasp a sense of limb independence, one needs to experiment with weak hand leading patterns. This has always been an aspect of great coordination texts.

[The Groovekat]

I am a naturally left handed drummer, however my first drum teacher started me off playing right handed and failed to notice that i lead with my left hand on all fills.
A few years later when i started with a new drum teacher he noticed that all my fills started with my left hand and asked me to experiment with playing open handed, i now use this as my preferred style however i feel fairly comfortable playing both ways but still lead all my fills with my left hand which i sometimes think is a major hindrance to my speed as my right hand is closer to the next tom.

Wow that's a strange one I think. Have you considered a true lefty setup?

[zambizzi]

It may be more comfortable for you, but the other merits are debatable. It could also be argued that playing open-handed also "crosses", but in another, maybe more problematic way than just having to make a little reach to hit the hi-hats. The role of each limb is not arbitrary; when the instrument became standardized into its modern state over the course of 40 or so years, the big, important, closely musically coordinated elements- the lead hand and the bass drum- fell naturally on the same side of the body. The weak side got the following hand and the relatively undemanding hi-hat. With the open handed approach, that foundational ride hand/bass drum relationship is split to opposite sides of the body; this seems to be a fundamentally weaker coordination scheme than the standard one.

Wow, very well articulated and very insightful. I like to think of a groove as a dance that the drummer is performing to give the entire band the underlying rhythm and feel to move through a song. It makes sense that you would drum with a similar feel as you would when you dance. You don't lead with both sides of your body while dancing, no?

[The Groovekat]

i really do think ambidexterity is something anyone can obtain if they put the time in to getting comfortable playing with their weaker hand as lead. obviously it would take a long time to catch up to your strong side if you're already awesome and have been playing for many years. but it can be done.
just a thought.

Totally concurr. Results may vary person to person, but it took me about a year to fully catch up to my right hand (which by that stage was "already awesome" lol) in terms of speed. In terms of general chops, the left will never be as good (As stated by Simon Phillips himself) so I guess that's worth weighing up when mulling over the pros & cons of switching.
But if I'd have known what sort of pros would eventuate from the switch, the decision would've been a much easier one for me and I definitely wouldn't have had any of those 'Oh maybe I should just give up and concentrate on what I'm good at' moments. Try to see the forest from the trees when you're in the early stages.

And while on that motivational aspect, I found the best remedy to be to put the sticks down and go and listen to (or better yet, watch) your favourite OHPlayer. Inspiration is the stuff of champions! lol

[toddbishop]

On the other had, I have found that often advanced coordination exercises are easier to do left hand lead. The left hand creatively stimulates the right side of the brain. At some point down the line, to really grasp a sense of limb independence, one needs to experiment with weak hand leading patterns. This has always been an aspect of great coordination texts.

Right, absolutely- you have to develop the weak side, and the open handed thing is one pretty good approach for exploring that. A couple of hours here and there are enough of that for me to get things moving a little bit. Beyond that, there are just too many other more important things to work on- I'd feel like a jerk if I put in all this work playing open handed and then got on the stand they count off Tune Up at HN=180 and I can't hang, or I step all over Falling Grace or Moment's Notice, or my closed roll sucks, my arranging sucks, or... well you get the picture.

[dcoi]

Wow that's a strange one I think. Have you considered a true lefty setup?

Ahh, these are the type of reactions i don't like to hear haha. I never have tried a lefty setup! I think it is because i have been drumming for 10+ years and i feel that it is too late to change now (not exactly too late but at this stage in my ability it would be too much work for no guaranteed real benefits), it was tough enough to switch from cross stick to open handed!

These days i play with a remote hi-hat setup and have no real problems with it being sluggish or delayed. I keep my ride on the very right of my kit so as to not neglect my right hand.

I am thinking more and more that it would be advantageous for me to put in a fair bit of time trying to lead fills right handed (I have no problems with grooves or straight beats, it is just the quick sticking required for fills that troubles me)... but yes it is a bit of a predicament i find myself in.

Suggestions or comments appreciated.

[Fiery]

It may be more comfortable for you, but the other merits are debatable. It could also be argued that playing open-handed also "crosses", but in another, maybe more problematic way than just having to make a little reach to hit the hi-hats. The role of each limb is not arbitrary; when the instrument became standardized into its modern state over the course of 40 or so years, the big, important, closely musically coordinated elements- the lead hand and the bass drum- fell naturally on the same side of the body. The weak side got the following hand and the relatively undemanding hi-hat. With the open handed approach, that foundational ride hand/bass drum relationship is split to opposite sides of the body; this seems to be a fundamentally weaker coordination scheme than the standard one.
This is what I found out after five years of playing open-handed exclusively (and six years playing overall). Even though it felt much better and more comfortable to be playing open, after all that time my groove was still objectively better when playing cross-handed. Since I don't put enough practice in my playing as is, I decided to accept the obvious and switch back. It took some work because my cross-handed technique was very poor even before I switched to open, but I feel I came out a better drummer overall, and I can still play open-handed for patterns that work better in that hand position.

[Deltadrummer]

Right, absolutely- you have to develop the weak side, and the open handed thing is one pretty good approach for exploring that. A couple of hours here and there are enough of that for me to get things moving a little bit. Beyond that, there are just too many other more important things to work on- I'd feel like a jerk if I put in all this work playing open handed and then got on the stand they count off Tune Up at HN=180 and I can't hang, or I step all over Falling Grace or Moment's Notice, or my closed roll sucks, my arranging sucks, or... well you get the picture.

The problem when you get into this technique as a be all for all is that same as any other technique that you have. Jazz playing is an open-handed style. You don't want to start going down the road of mixing LH, RF when comping and accentuating the melodic rhythm Well, I don't any way. you have the same concept in a lot of funk

If you are doing bop at 180+ speed is going to be an issue, as you stated.. It's interesting to hear that Simon Phillips states this. I've heard other prominent drummers say the same thing.

I think there are many benefits to working open-handed, not least of which is that if you are paying three sets, it distributes the work. :)

[Deathmetalconga]

It may be more comfortable for you, but the other merits are debatable. It could also be argued that playing open-handed also "crosses", but in another, maybe more problematic way than just having to make a little reach to hit the hi-hats. The role of each limb is not arbitrary; when the instrument became standardized into its modern state over the course of 40 or so years, the big, important, closely musically coordinated elements- the lead hand and the bass drum- fell naturally on the same side of the body. The weak side got the following hand and the relatively undemanding hi-hat. With the open handed approach, that foundational ride hand/bass drum relationship is split to opposite sides of the body; this seems to be a fundamentally weaker coordination scheme than the standard one.

I would argue that the snare, being the heart of the drum kit, is in a deep foundational relationship with the bass drum, not so much the ride and hats, although jazz may be different. When the drum set was first being developed, the hihat didn't even exist; there were just the "sock cymbals" played low. At that time, all players were open players. It wasn't until the advent of the raised hihat that people needed to start crossing their limbs/sticks to play. Jazz players never did fully catch on and as a result, the ride cymbal is much, much more important in jazz than the hats.

In other music, the ride and hats are closely related to the left foot, while the bass and snare are closely related to each other. Therefore, by playing open, one keeps the snare hand and bass foot (which enjoy a close relationship) on the same side of the body. Playing open allows you to keep the hats/ride hand on the same side of the body as the hats foot. What could be more natural? Also, as a right-handed person, I can tell you I really like playing with my right hand on the snare, as it makes it easier to learn ghost notes and other techniques.

[The Groovekat]

I would argue that the snare, being the heart of the drum kit, is in a deep foundational relationship with the bass drum, not so much the ride and hats, although jazz may be different. When the drum set was first being developed, the hihat didn't even exist; there were just the "sock cymbals" played low. At that time, all players were open players. It wasn't until the advent of the raised hihat that people needed to start crossing their limbs/sticks to play. Jazz players never did fully catch on and as a result, the ride cymbal is much, much more important in jazz than the hats.

In other music, the ride and hats are closely related to the left foot, while the bass and snare are closely related to each other. Therefore, by playing open, one keeps the snare hand and bass foot (which enjoy a close relationship) on the same side of the body. Playing open allows you to keep the hats/ride hand on the same side of the body as the hats foot. What could be more natural? Also, as a right-handed person, I can tell you I really like playing with my right hand on the snare, as it makes it easier to learn ghost notes and other techniques.



Despite being a dedicated open handed player, I would have to agree with Toddbishop on this one . It's foolish to say that the strongest relationship between two drums ISN'T that of the bass drum and hats/ride. If that connection and cohesiveness isn't locked in then you're gonna be sloppy. So in that respect, it makes no sense to play open, unless you develop the weak hand to a point where it can lead comfortably and never fall out of time. That's the most important thing..not the added access to the toms or the improved snare control. All those things are what make it worth while, ut if that first crucial cog is not in plave, then the whole thing comes crashing down.



`

[Stewed]

If someone has played crossed for a long time, however, I think that moving the hats over to the right (by the ride) with a remote hat, is the next best way to enjoy the benefits of open-handed playing, as you wouldn't have to entirely re-learn your assigned hand roles. But that may mean the hats will be farther from the snare. On the other hand, I've seen some crossed players that have a HUGE vertical distance between the snare and hats. Moving the hats to the right would increase the horizontal distance between the hats and snare, but it would probably decrease the vertical distance. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has actually done this.

I've done this. Hats are to the right on a cable remote over the floor tom. Ride is on the right over the kick. Ride and hats about the same height. I've set up this way for the last 20 years. Very comfortable. I don't find distance to be that much of an issue, but I have fairly long arms. I also set-up a normal hat on the left and when it is at a comfortable distance, there is not that much difference between the two.

[toddbishop]

I would argue that the snare, being the heart of the drum kit, is in a deep foundational relationship with the bass drum, not so much the ride and hats, although jazz may be different.

No, the ride and hi-hat have actually taken over some of old role of the snare drum, and share the same connection to the BD. Up through the 1930's the ride pattern was played on the snare drum - quasi-march style- until Papa Jo Jones and Kenny Clarke started moving the lead hand to the hi-hats and the cymbal, respectively. The bass drum supported the lead hand all through this, by doubling it when keeping time and playing punctuations, or by playing patterns closely coordinated with it.

When the drum set was first being developed, the hihat didn't even exist; there were just the "sock cymbals" played low. At that time, all players were open players. It wasn't until the advent of the raised hihat that people needed to start crossing their limbs/sticks to play.

If you think of people as "crossed" and "open" players, then yes, something dramatic happened when people started playing time on the hi-hats- suddenly everyone made a radical change in direction and became "crossed" players! But really, all that happened is they continued doing exactly what they were doing before, except they started reaching six inches to their left, part of the time. What would've been a radical departure is if they suddenly started leading everything with their weak, traditional grip hand- even more so if they had to learn matched grip. I don't know of anyone who says that learning to play weak-hand lead doesn't take (at least) a lot of work and a lengthy period of adjustment; whereas the crossing over thing may be a slightly awkward posture, but requires basically zero adjustment period or change in approach.

Jazz players never did fully catch on and as a result, the ride cymbal is much, much more important in jazz than the hats.

It's not accurate to say it didn't catch on; a jazz musician - Papa Jo- was actually responsible for that innovation, and everyone still plays the hi-hats in that style, at least part of the time. In bebop, the hi-hat is not played as much as the ride for musical reasons. Usually the hi-hats are are played when the bass is playing in 2, the ride is played when the bass is in 4, and bebop is mostly played in 4. In older and more modern styles, the hi-hat is played more often.

In other music, the ride and hats are closely related to the left foot, while the bass and snare are closely related to each other. Therefore, by playing open, one keeps the snare hand and bass foot (which enjoy a close relationship) on the same side of the body. Playing open allows you to keep the hats/ride hand on the same side of the body as the hats foot.

Again, this is not right- the snare drum may be the center of the drum set, but in modern (post-ride/hh) timekeeping, it's mainly played by the following hand, and the bass drum, again, primarily coordinates with the lead hand, which usually plays a cymbal.

I suspect that in playing open handed the HH foot becomes really important- since the hands are both in unfamiliar roles, and often the BD is not just keeping four (or two) on the floor, the left foot is the one guy that's been keeping running time through everything- assuming you've been doubling/supporting the ride with it, or bouncing your heel silently.

What could be more natural? Also, as a right-handed person, I can tell you I really like playing with my right hand on the snare, as it makes it easier to learn ghost notes and other techniques.

Artists can make all kinds of things work, so you should follow your instincts and do whatever works for you. I don't agree that it's any more natural than, say, being right-handed, but sometimes writing with your left just because the sheet of paper happens to be sitting to your left. Usually what you do is make a little adjustment and write with your good hand in the beautiful script you've been practicing since you were a kid.

[Deathmetalconga]

No, the ride and hi-hat have actually taken over some of old role of the snare drum, and share the same connection to the BD. Up through the 1930's the ride pattern was played on the snare drum - quasi-march style- until Papa Jo Jones and Kenny Clarke started moving the lead hand to the hi-hats and the cymbal, respectively. The bass drum supported the lead hand all through this, by doubling it when keeping time and playing punctuations, or by playing patterns closely coordinated with it.

If you think of people as "crossed" and "open" players, then yes, something dramatic happened when people started playing time on the hi-hats- suddenly everyone made a radical change in direction and became "crossed" players! But really, all that happened is they continued doing exactly what they were doing before, except they started reaching six inches to their left, part of the time. What would've been a radical departure is if they suddenly started leading everything with their weak, traditional grip hand- even more so if they had to learn matched grip. I don't know of anyone who says that learning to play weak-hand lead doesn't take (at least) a lot of work and a lengthy period of adjustment; whereas the crossing over thing may be a slightly awkward posture, but requires basically zero adjustment period or change in approach.

It's not accurate to say it didn't catch on; a jazz musician - Papa Jo- was actually responsible for that innovation, and everyone still plays the hi-hats in that style, at least part of the time. In bebop, the hi-hat is not played as much as the ride for musical reasons. Usually the hi-hats are are played when the bass is playing in 2, the ride is played when the bass is in 4, and bebop is mostly played in 4. In older and more modern styles, the hi-hat is played more often.

Again, this is not right- the snare drum may be the center of the drum set, but in modern (post-ride/hh) timekeeping, it's mainly played by the following hand, and the bass drum, again, primarily coordinates with the lead hand, which usually plays a cymbal.

I suspect that in playing open handed the HH foot becomes really important- since the hands are both in unfamiliar roles, and often the BD is not just keeping four (or two) on the floor, the left foot is the one guy that's been keeping running time through everything- assuming you've been doubling/supporting the ride with it, or bouncing your heel silently.

Artists can make all kinds of things work, so you should follow your instincts and do whatever works for you. I don't agree that it's any more natural than, say, being right-handed, but sometimes writing with your left just because the sheet of paper happens to be sitting to your left. Usually what you do is make a little adjustment and write with your good hand in the beautiful script you've been practicing since you were a kid.

Yes, I do think of people as "crossed" and "open" players - that is the subject of the thread.

If someone wanted to play the piano, bass or erhu cross-handed, I'm sure they could come up with reasons as to why it is "better." But no one plays any other instrument cross handed. Cross-handedness in drums became the norm simply because of arbitrary equipment limitations and custom; as you point out, people were already set playing traditional grip in the left hand and likely weren't willing to re-learn their grips (I do play trad grip on my right hand) or switch their assigned foot roles. When you play open, some things are easier and some harder. It confers no technical advantages or disadvantages, but it does fundamentally influence your playing and approach to the set. Whether that's a good or bad influence is up to the player, just as it is with crossed playing.

It is natural for people to use the left hands for things that are closer to the left hand, and the right hand for things that are closer to the right hand. I can't think of anything except Western trap drums where this is not the case. I also think for most people, the difference in strength between the dominant and subdominant sides of the body is minor. I know using my subdominant left hand on hats and ride hasn't affected my stamina, and having the hats very close to my left hand actually improves it. It is the crossed players who must exert extra effort to play the hats on the opposite side of their body, then they claim they need more strength to play the hats! Case in point: I often see crossed players must raise their right hand high up and out of the way to give their left hand more distance when hitting the snare. I see that and think it must be exhausting!

I think you are right that in open playing, the left foot becomes very important. I always, always have the left foot playing quarters, sometimes eighths or a clave, whether I'm on hats or ride or drums. It adds to the music in a subtle way and anchors my playing and it's very easy for my left or right hand to play barks and sssips on it. I'm going to chalk up left foot discipline as another advantage of playing open. I'd have to disagree, however, that the hands are in unfamiliar roles when playing left hand hats/ride. As an open-handed player, when I approach the set, I view the snare and bass as being interrelated with each other, and the ride/hats as being interrelated with the left foot. That is very familiar to an open player, but a radically different way of approaching the set for most people.

For these reasons, I do not think someone who has been playing crossed should start playing open, unless they seek ambidexterity or the ability to execute new things and are willing to devote some time to it, as you have. Ambidexterity is a separate skill and is often confused with open playing, but I have played open all my life and I am just as set in my assigned hand roles as anyone else. I know nothing else except open playing (left hand hats and ride, right hand snare, left foot hats, right foot bass), as my first teacher played that way and insisted I did as well.

[MikeM]

I've been working on open-handed drumming more intensely the last several months, but it really started many years ago, gradually, as I started air-drumming left handed to the radio just for amusement - to see how much of it my brain could coordinate without having to actually hear how bad it would sound if I were actually playing!

But after awhile, it seemed like a worthy exercise and I began to experiment more on my kit while playing with the band. The very first thing I noticed was how leading with my left straightened out my time! Strange how that "handicap" forced a certain rigidity (accuracy) that replaced a certain complacent looseness (sloppiness). Now when I'm feeling like something about my feel or time is suffering, instead of switching to traditional grip (my old standby "handicap"), now I play open handed and suddenly my feel comes back to where it should be.

Very strange. I've tried to analyze the why's of it all, but really I don't care all that much! Actually, I think it's because my hands aren't allowed to roam on muscle memory. My ears take total control since my hands are incapable of taking my ears along for the ride! That's my pet theory, anyway.

Now I'm dreading the day where my open-handed playing becomes so comfortable that the old slop comes back. I guess I could then learn traditional grip with my right hand!

[toddbishop]

The very first thing I noticed was how leading with my left straightened out my time! Strange how that "handicap" forced a certain rigidity (accuracy) that replaced a certain complacent looseness (sloppiness). Now when I'm feeling like something about my feel or time is suffering, instead of switching to traditional grip (my old standby "handicap"), now I play open handed and suddenly my feel comes back to where it should be.

Very strange. I've tried to analyze the why's of it all, but really I don't care all that much! Actually, I think it's because my hands aren't allowed to roam on muscle memory. My ears take total control since my hands are incapable of taking my ears along for the ride!

Yes, excellent- that's what it's all about: strategies for keeping focused and outflanking the little lazy habits, playing from muscle memory, etc. I can't say I agree with/understand the logic for pursuing this sort of thing full time, but it will definitely slap some discipline on your attention, left hand, and coordination in general.

[Deathmetalconga]

Yes, excellent- that's what it's all about: strategies for keeping focused and outflanking the little lazy habits, playing from muscle memory, etc. I can't say I agree with/understand the logic for pursuing this sort of thing full time, but it will definitely slap some discipline on your attention, left hand, and coordination in general.

I am occasionally tempted to move my ride cymbal to the right, raise my hats and play right hand hats and ride like everyone else, just because it would shake up my playing. On the other hand, I think I should just stick with what I know and put my attention on learning new things, not how to play what I already know with different limbs.

You do this both ways - what do you think? I have maybe two hours a week of solo practice and an hour a week of band practice. Is it worth it?

[jivadayadasa]

I've been working on open-handed drumming more intensely the last several months, but it really started many years ago, gradually, as I started air-drumming left handed to the radio just for amusement - to see how much of it my brain could coordinate without having to actually hear how bad it would sound if I were actually playing!

But after awhile, it seemed like a worthy exercise and I began to experiment more on my kit while playing with the band. The very first thing I noticed was how leading with my left straightened out my time! Strange how that "handicap" forced a certain rigidity (accuracy) that replaced a certain complacent looseness (sloppiness). Now when I'm feeling like something about my feel or time is suffering, instead of switching to traditional grip (my old standby "handicap"), now I play open handed and suddenly my feel comes back to where it should be.

Interesting that you mention your "feel" coming back to where it should be. THAT is exactly what many people say supposedly suffers from playing while leading with the non-dominant hand. Glad you mentioned this, I also have found that it forces me to concentrate more and, for now, rely less on muscle memory.

[toddbishop]

I am occasionally tempted to move my ride cymbal to the right, raise my hats and play right hand hats and ride like everyone else, just because it would shake up my playing. On the other hand, I think I should just stick with what I know and put my attention on learning new things, not how to play what I already know with different limbs.

You do this both ways - what do you think? I have maybe two hours a week of solo practice and an hour a week of band practice. Is it worth it?

I think usually taking one approach and refining it is the way to go. It sounds like you're very comfortable with the open thing, and by it's nature you also have to have your stuff together right handed as well, so maybe there's no need to change your set up. Maybe a reason to switch might be if you feel like you're having to dedicate too much energy to maintaining both LH (for keeping time) and RH (for fills, and maybe for keeping time also) leads; switching to exclusively RH might help focus your efforts a little more. I haven't done enough with the open thing to be real intimate with all of the issues involved with doing it up to a professional level, I only occasionally fool with it to throw something really different in the coordination mix. I never play it on a gig, except maybe for a second when I'm switching sticks.

It was kind of funny- if you saw the Kenny Clarke interview excerpts I posted, he was also complaining about having to cross over to play the hi-hat- he did play it as much as anybody, but he wasn't real happy about it (I think those early stands maybe didn't clear the SD enough?), and it was one of the things that prompted him to move to the cymbal. So it's always been an issue, but one that can be resolved by making a couple of little adjustments and/or refining technique. It's never stopped anyone from becoming great.

[aboylikedave]

The role of each limb is not arbitrary; when the instrument became standardized into its modern state over the course of 40 or so years, the big, important, closely musically coordinated elements- the lead hand and the bass drum- fell naturally on the same side of the body. .

Interestingly this means that for playing jazz, open handed is great for me, as ride and hi hat keep the groove and are on the same side, BD tends to play melody. But for funk say, or a nice half time shuffle, I find it harder to hit the pocket open handed.

[leftyuki]

Hi Guys,

Well, I'm an open handed player and have done this from day one. I'm a leftie and when I started playing, this was the set-up that was natural.

Now, that said, I have to admit that I always have trouble with fills and rolls and timing! The set is designed for right hand leads on rolls (start with the right hand, then you work smoothly through the toms.). The timing to either start a roll with the right hand (while playing open) and when ending a roll, always feels like I'm off a beat.

Yes, I feel that there is "thinking" involved with playing open, which I don't think is good while drumming (you should flow at some point, not consciously think about how to start/stop a roll).

So, my question to you fellow Open Handers out there (and great thread bty!!), how do you do rolls? Do you lead with the left? IF so, don't you then have to awkwardly cross sticks going from tom to tom?

Do you guys have timing issues doing fills? I will either have an awkward starts (if I start with the right hand, which is what I'm trying to do, so I can flow over the kit better), or if I start with my left, well, then the timing on each drum is off.

For the record, I actually have two rides - one on the left and one on the right (I'm practicing using my right hand more these days, so dual ride is nice). And I play (naturally) the high-hat open.

[Mikecore]

I've been using centered remote hats since 1998. I found that setting up the rack toms in a lower position closer to the snare allows the hats to go above those, and the hats are not really any further away from the snare than if they were on the left of my kit.

The hard part was nailing down a good remote hi-hat. Right now I have a DW 9503LB cable remote which actually has really good action. Pretty close to direct. Now that I'm using single bass again, I am going to try one of those 9550 shaft-driven remotes, though the big improvement there is ease of transport; no cable to have to coil into a bag.

I don't see the need to adopt reverse sticking just because straight hat stands are so common. We have the technology. We can make it better. Stronger. Faster....

[Sjogras]

This oviously looks very nice for some snare-tom-hats interplay. I read somewhere that Danny changed back to a normal hi-hat stand because the feel isn't the same with remote hats.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a177/alpineman29/800px-Danny_Carey_Kit.jpg

[skreg]

Here's my line of thought.

I play ambidextrously. If I prefer one hand over another for any specific task on the drum set, that will inevitably lead to stumbling and losing momentum. This applies to both fills and grooves - starting and ending fills with either/both the left and right hand.

I've been very careful about keeping track of how long it takes to develop a groove, then switch hands and play the same groove. On average, I'm practicing about 150% of what would be required if I decided just to stick with right hand lead (for example, 1hr to learn the left hand lead, then another 30 minutes to get it locked in leading with the right hand). Keep in mind that, for now, I am not trying to play ambidextrously with my FEET, mostly because I don't have the equipment to practice that way right now.

So, it really depends on what your GOALS are. If you need to develop good feel in many styles quickly, then it makes A LOT more sense to choose one hand to lead with - left or right - then put your hats and ride on that side of the kit to create the "open handed" effect. Or, put the hats and ride on different sides, and lead with the left or right hand to play "cross sticks." It really doesn't matter too much - the idea is it needs to feel NATURAL and it needs to GROOVE.

On the other hand (hahahahaha), if your goal is to develop really extreme, impractical, and musically irrelevant independence to become a "drum athlete," then take the time to learn both ways and practice more.

-sheldon

[paistemage]

When I was ten years old, I saw drummers play set. I didn't see anyone play open handed until I was 14, and thought, "thaat's wrong!" ...little did I know many drummers play this way. I ENVY anyone that can play like this for the advantages listed previously. I now, for many years have tried to play this way, or teach myself to play this way. The polyrhythmic value of this , to me, is amazing. Plus, soloing and accents , help.

[Rick H.]

Yeah when i first started drumming i would see people playing open handed and didnt think they knew what they were doing

But just recently after playing some fast songs after a while my right hand got tired so i started playing the hats with my left and snare with my right

I am still having some trouble keeping really good time with the open hand technique but am working on it and am progressing

[Deathmetalconga]

Yeah when i first started drumming i would see people playing open handed and didnt think they knew what they were doing



Only in drumming does open handed playing seem strange! But if you saw someone playing a guitar, piano or trumpet with their hands crossed, or driving or eating with their hands crossed, you'd think that would be pretty weird.

[Wavelength]

Only in drumming does open handed playing seem strange! But if you saw someone playing a guitar, piano or trumpet with their hands crossed, or driving or eating with their hands crossed, you'd think that would be pretty weird.

Your hands shouldn't cross if you're doing it right. The sticks do cross, but the hands do not.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/stevegaddbasic.htm

[Deathmetalconga]

Your hands shouldn't cross if you're doing it right. The sticks do cross, but the hands do not.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/stevegaddbasic.htm

Yes, but if your sticks are crossed, you're still playing crossed. Another ergonomic aspect is: Are you playing a particular piece of gear with the hand that is closest to it? For example, if your hats are on the left, your left hand will be closer to the hats, so it follows to reason you would play the hats with your left hand.

[Wavelength]

Another ergonomic aspect is: Are you playing a particular piece of gear with the hand that is closest to it? For example, if your hats are on the left, your left hand will be closer to the hats, so it follows to reason you would play the hats with your left hand.

Ergonomics and ease of action isn't always down to what's closest, but rather about how is it most easily accessible. For example, if you have an itch in your left armpit, are you going to scratch it with your left hand?

[vojtech]

Lately I have been experimenting with open-legged drumming, and I find that it has opened up my fluidity behind the kit tremendously. It surely takes some time to get used to, but not having to cross my legs to play the hi-hat pedal feels so much better to me. Has anybody else tried this?

[Deathmetalconga]

Ergonomics and ease of action isn't always down to what's closest, but rather about how is it most easily accessible. For example, if you have an itch in your left armpit, are you going to scratch it with your left hand?

Likewise, if you have an itch on your left elbow, are you going to scratch it with your left hand? Just can't do it!

Aside from a few brain-teaser examples, it is basic to ergonomics that a hand or foot controls what is closest to it. That's why when people type, eat, drive, play another other music instrument or do virtually anything else, each hand uses what is closest to it, with brief exceptions for crossing over to reach something.

[Deathmetalconga]

Lately I have been experimenting with open-legged drumming, and I find that it has opened up my fluidity behind the kit tremendously. It surely takes some time to get used to, but not having to cross my legs to play the hi-hat pedal feels so much better to me. Has anybody else tried this?

HAHA! Pretty funny!

I never drummed crossed-legged, but I use to have my hihat pedal and bass drum pedal pointed at a 45 degree angle to each other. My feet never actually crossed, so it's not crossed!

(just kidding on all the above).

[Rick H.]

Only in drumming does open handed playing seem strange! But if you saw someone playing a guitar, piano or trumpet with their hands crossed, or driving or eating with their hands crossed, you'd think that would be pretty weird.

I do know what you mean and i know you have all your ergonimetrics wich i can't argue with, but do you ever feel it's unnatural to have your right foot working with your left hand and have your left foot working with your right hand?

I'm not saying it's wrong, (I play a little open handed myself) If anything it may make you a bit more complex when it comes to certain things (or maybe everything), but I'm just saying, I haven't ever heard you play, so I can't judge, but have you ever thought if you played cross handed if MAYBE you would have turned out a little better.

Again NO judging goin on, i'm just (like everyone else) tryin to get some thought?insight goin,
so if i DID offend im terribly sorry I had no intentions, just curiosity..

[BillBachman]

The feel definitely is not the same with remote CABLE hats where the wire in in a sheath.

Centering the hi hat is the ultimate solution I've found, no matter which hand you decide to lead with. No matter pattern or fill idea you're playing there will never be any crossing, this is a game changer.

This oviously looks very nice for some snare-tom-hats interplay. I read somewhere that Danny changed back to a normal hi-hat stand because the feel isn't the same with remote hats.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a177/alpineman29/800px-Danny_Carey_Kit.jpg

[Deathmetalconga]

I do know what you mean and i know you have all your ergonimetrics wich i can't argue with, but do you ever feel it's unnatural to have your right foot working with your left hand and have your left foot working with your right hand?

I'm not saying it's wrong, (I play a little open handed myself) If anything it may make you a bit more complex when it comes to certain things (or maybe everything), but I'm just saying, I haven't ever heard you play, so I can't judge, but have you ever thought if you played cross handed if MAYBE you would have turned out a little better.

Again NO judging goin on, i'm just (like everyone else) tryin to get some thought?insight goin,
so if i DID offend im terribly sorry I had no intentions, just curiosity..

Thanks for the good observations and comments. I understand what you are saying. But I think the bass drum and the snare are interconnected, while the hi hat/ride are connected to the left foot. So it seems more natural to me to have the same side of the body deal with things that are connected, and have the objects closest to the hands on that side of the body. Does that make sense?

I don't think I would have turned out "better" playing crossed, and I don't I am necessarily better than someone who plays crossed. Each style has some advantages and disadvantages and what matters most is the commitment of the player. I just happen to like the advantages of playing open.

[Wavelength]

But I think the bass drum and the snare are interconnected, while the hi hat/ride are connected to the left foot. So it seems more natural to me to have the same side of the body deal with things that are connected, and have the objects closest to the hands on that side of the body. Does that make sense?

I kind of disagree. It's somewhat rare to strike the snare drum and the bass drum at the same time, whereas it's very common to play the bass drum simultaneously with the ride cymbal or the hihats.

[kyle]

The feel definitely is not the same with remote CABLE hats where the wire in in a sheath.

Centering the hi hat is the ultimate solution I've found, no matter which hand you decide to lead with. No matter pattern or fill idea you're playing there will never be any crossing, this is a game changer.

You'll never cross? What if I want to hit the lowest floor tom than the next note is on the right hand on a rack tom? Than the note right after that one is back on the floor tom.

[Deathmetalconga]

I kind of disagree. It's somewhat rare to strike the snare drum and the bass drum at the same time, whereas it's very common to play the bass drum simultaneously with the ride cymbal or the hihats.

The bass and snare are very connected! What's the basic rock two-four beat? The relationships between the bass drum and snare drum define a lot of music, even for other instruments. In jazz, that may be different as there is less emphasis on the bass drum. Whether it is better to have those relationships on the same side of the body is debatable, but I and many other open-handed plays feel it is advantageous to coordination.

[jivadayadasa]

You'll never cross? What if I want to hit the lowest floor tom than the next note is on the right hand on a rack tom? Than the note right after that one is back on the floor tom.

Just wondering... Isn't this where sticking comes into play?

[BillBachman]

You'll never cross? What if I want to hit the lowest floor tom than the next note is on the right hand on a rack tom? Than the note right after that one is back on the floor tom.

I meant never cross between the snare and hats. Here's a picture from above:

[jivadayadasa]

Great perspective on this! Thanks a lot for posting this pic. I really like this idea and, although i've been watching Bruford use a similar set up fpr years, I haven't thought about it seriously.

Cheers for the birds eye view, Bill.

Jiva

[BillBachman]

Thanks Jiva, it's the easiest set in the world to play and takes no time to get used to. Every drummer who's gotten behind it ends up smiling.

[Deathmetalconga]

Thanks Jiva, it's the easiest set in the world to play and takes no time to get used to. Every drummer who's gotten behind it ends up smiling.

How do you operate the hihat? A cable?

[BillBachman]

How do you operate the hihat? A cable?

No, I can't deal with the sluggish cable hats, it the remote speedy hat!

[Deathmetalconga]

No, I can't deal with the sluggish cable hats, it the remote speedy hat!

I was going to ask, "OK, so where is the remote speedy hat of which you speak?" and then I saw your tagline.

Very neat invention. I am not done looking at the video but I like the pulley system. I use something like that pulley system on a foot-controlled talking drum. This is great because it allows traditional, crossed style drummers to play open and their left hand/stick isn't "trapped" under their right one. Yet little relearning is needed, just to adjust to the feeling of your hihat in front of you. I noticed that you played some riffs on the video that would be impossible to play crossed, unless the traditional hihat was up by the player's shoulder.

I cannot figure out why any drummer tolerates having their left stick trapped under their right one and it looks it motivated you to create your own solution! I would like one of these but it is more than I can afford right now.

[BillBachman]

I couldn't agree more! The beautiful thing about having it out front is that there will never be any crossing limitations between the snare and hats no matter what either hand is doing. Everything is instantly easier and thousands of new possibilities arise.

I was going to ask, "OK, so where is the remote speedy hat of which you speak?" and then I saw your tagline.

Very neat invention. I am not done looking at the video but I like the pulley system. I use something like that pulley system on a foot-controlled talking drum. This is great because it allows traditional, crossed style drummers to play open and their left hand/stick isn't "trapped" under their right one. Yet little relearning is needed, just to adjust to the feeling of your hihat in front of you. I noticed that you played some riffs on the video that would be impossible to play crossed, unless the traditional hihat was up by the player's shoulder.

I cannot figure out why any drummer tolerates having their left stick trapped under their right one and it looks it motivated you to create your own solution! I would like one of these but it is more than I can afford right now.

[Rick H.]

Lately I have been experimenting with open-legged drumming, and I find that it has opened up my fluidity behind the kit tremendously. It surely takes some time to get used to, but not having to cross my legs to play the hi-hat pedal feels so much better to me. Has anybody else tried this?

I know this was not a serious post, but has anyone tried this: What i do sometimes to give my right leg a break while playing single kick beats since i play with a double bass pedal, i'll have my right hand working the ride while my left foot does what the right foot would normally be doing while the right foot takes a little break and the left hand be doing its normally thing.

Am i alone on this or are there any others out there?