Time Keeping Question

[Fresh_Dinosaur]

Hey guys,

I realize this may be a tricky question to answer, but here it is anyway:

Whenever I play the drums for any extended period of time (i.e. while at jazz camp), my time seems to be fine for the first couple of days, but by the third or fourth day begins to slide so badly I can hardly get through a single song without being yelled at for speeding up or slowing down. Does anyone have any advice or insight as to why this might happen?

Thanks

[fourstringdrums]

Well a few things: Either subconsciously you're thinking "My time is fine..." because you had no problems for the first few days, so you no longer pay attention to it. Or, it could be a fact that you're not used to doing this so much that your brain becomes tired after a while and you just start slipping.

The only thing I can say is to practice your time when you're not playing at jazz camp and focus on it, and when you are, be extra aware of where the time is. Pay extra close attention to your band leader's hand and don't take it for granted.

[Class A Drummer]

Work with a metranome is huge. I use to speed up alot, so then i realized, to keep good time i would have to feel as though im going slowly, and that would keep myself in perfect time. But eventually it actually started slowing me down (when it comes to rock music, not jazz for some reason, for jazz i keep good time) so now i try to push the tempo and it feels like im speeding up, but it turns out i am actually keeping the time going. I dont like the fact that i have to do this though, i think i should be able to just play and not have to think of it so much. But you might want to try this.

If you are speeding up, try pulling back a little, if you are slowing down, try pushing it a little.

[tak22thegoat]

As ClassADrummer said, working with a metronome 24/7 at various tempos is a great way to develop good time.
In rock music, to keep time, you can step with your heel while pressing down on your toe on all quarter notes. (Without making any noise.)
In jazz music, to keep time, you can do a hi hat chick on 2 and 4, and on 1 and 3, step with your while without making any noise on your hi hat.
Also another point is to make sure you breathe with correctly. Also, use your body to keep time. Not just your mind, but your body.
If you play any sports, you know that rythym is VERY important to playing. For example, I play basketball, and when dribbling, keeping a rythym whilst dribbling is the most important thing when dribbling.
Hope this helps

[fat in the middle]

Possibly it could just be that you find yourself too comfortable and automatic with things leaving you not concentrating in the moment. School can do that. Pretty girls can do that as well.

[jay norem]

Hey guys,

I realize this may be a tricky question to answer, but here it is anyway:

Whenever I play the drums for any extended period of time (i.e. while at jazz camp), my time seems to be fine for the first couple of days, but by the third or fourth day begins to slide so badly I can hardly get through a single song without being yelled at for speeding up or slowing down. Does anyone have any advice or insight as to why this might happen?

Thanks

It's just getting lazy. You're young, you get used to something, you don't think about it the way you did when it was new.
The trick is for it to ALWAYS BE NEW. Every time you play that same song, it HAS to be new. Maybe not so much for you, but for the people you're playing for who may not have heard that song before.
Every time you play a song, no matter how many times you've played it before, should be like the first time you ever played the thing. That approach keeps your brain working.
Pretty girls cause your brain to shut down. Well, they always seem to do that for me.

[paramac]

I guess there are several reasons but underlying is concentration. It always has to be there I think. By that I don't mean thinking too much. I have gone thru my ups and downs with these issues and sometimes it can affect my confidence. I think confidence can affect it too. Not being confident or being too confident where you then let things slide and fall asleep at the wheel so to speak. Back to concentration, Concentrating on remembering to breath smoothly, not looking past the band stand. Concentration on the feel of the "dance"of the tune, concentration on the ride cymbal a must must must! A lot of times the "other stuff" comping etc can detract from the ride cymbal and that then start to lead the way in terms of tempo. I am still trying to get that together, I don't think I'll ever graduate that in a sense. I was listening last to some gigs on a cruise ship gig I was doing for a few months and every freeken song speed just about on this one set. It was a Jazz Trio and I do own up to my part but the guitarist was over playing soo much stuff for too many chorus and rushing like crazy..It helps to play with people that are on the ball too. Ya know have great time and listen a lot. I would get a real good digital recorder and start to record yourself all the time. Do it playing in a band, playing/practicing by your self to metronome, without metronome, (definatley with out also and listening back cause ya ain't gonna always have that metronome especially in a real situation barring studio hits) also to records on whole kit, then just ride, then maybe ride and snare. I just came out of my practice room an was playing along with some Dexter Gordan records. I only record 3 to 5 mins and then listen back. Another thing too is play a tune with nobody but you and maybe sing it as you play record you playing the head then a couple of choruses comping, then maybe solo a couple chorus, then head out and listen back to that. I think when that is happening time/feel/ ideas that is a good thing. I think that speeding up in Jazz is better than slowing down if I had to chose one, but ideally keeping it where it started from is best. I have a tendency to speed up even on real fast tempos sometimes it will just take off. I like to try to play soft with a lot of energy and it is just hard to do that and maintain the same tempo. Remember too a lot of those old Blue Note recordings would speed up a lot of times I can think of many records like that and we are talking about a lot of the great. I'll never forget putting on Miles "Live At The Black Hawk" vol 1 I think it is and playing a long with Bye Bye Blackbird and having a blast playing along with Jimmy Cobb and P.C. and as I got int the tune, IT STARTED TO GET SLOWER................AND SLOWER!!!
Everyone is only human and it happens to the best of them. Maybe not Steve Gadd though.. he he!! Have fun that taping business can be fun too. I know it can be painful to hear ones own playing but it is a great way to really hone in on things..Well, back to the practice room. Man! I am so lucky, Iit is 330 in the morning and I live where I can practice any time I want ! Yeah!!!!!!!Have fun!

[foursticks]

As mentioned, a metronome is your friend, but a good thing to do is whilst you're playing along with the metronome to be really concentrating on it (obviously) and try to become familiar with what it feels like to become completely in time. Once you get used to that, you should find your time becoming better as long as you get into that feel when your playing. It's a bit weird to describe, but try it out and see if you get what I mean..

[Alexdrum75]

As mentioned, a metronome is your friend, but a good thing to do is whilst you're playing along with the metronome to be really concentrating on it (obviously) and try to become familiar with what it feels like to become completely in time. Once you get used to that, you should find your time becoming better as long as you get into that feel when your playing. It's a bit weird to describe, but try it out and see if you get what I mean..

I agree totally.
However I've got a question (that is rather my fear): is that using the metronome all the time impairs the creation of one's center of time, or internal clock?

Another question: how do you play using the metronome with other musicians that aren't completely accustomed to the click, or in other words, that have awful time?

I found that NOT using the click in those circumstances is way better than using it.
See my post here Time (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34127)

[foursticks]

I agree totally.
However I've got a question (that is rather my fear): is that using the metronome all the time impairs the creation of one's center of time, or internal clock?

Another question: how do you play using the metronome with other musicians that aren't completely accustomed to the click, or in other words, that have awful time?

I found that NOT using the click in those circumstances is way better than using it.
See my post here Time (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34127)

It's meant to help one's internal timing, not sure what you mean by centre of time? Do you mean being able to play time with other musicians? Your own internal clock should be enough as long as your listening enough to the whole band.
I personally don't play with other musicians using a metronome, but what I can say is that time is a responsibility of the whole band, not just the drummer, no matter what band mates might say.
Your all in the same boat, so if one sinks, you all do. Tell whoever it is whose dragging/speeding up to work with a metronome, but more importantly tell him/her to listen to the band. Not listening and concentrating is mainly the root of all band problems.
Bottom line: You all have to put in to get out.

[Alexdrum75]

It's meant to help one's internal timing, not sure what you mean by centre of time? Do you mean being able to play time with other musicians? Your own internal clock should be enough as long as your listening enough to the whole band.
I personally don't play with other musicians using a metronome, but what I can say is that time is a responsibility of the whole band, not just the drummer, no matter what band mates might say.
Your all in the same boat, so if one sinks, you all do. Tell whoever it is whose dragging/speeding up to work with a metronome, but more importantly tell him/her to listen to the band. Not listening and concentrating is mainly the root of all band problems.
Bottom line: You all have to put in to get out.

Have a listen to my examples posted below (click Time) and you'll be able to tell me some more...

This first answer you gave me makes much more sense that the one Curt Bisquera gave me some time ago (telling me that's ONLY my own responsibility to lay down the time and making the whole band groovin').

[foursticks]

I just listened to cigar song, you sounded fine. If you want me to nit pick then I would say that there were parts that you could have driven more, but that's cos the music called for it, not the metronome. Don't get so worried about timing, you sound pretty solid to me and that was great drumming. Sometimes I reckon playing with a metronome can take away some of the groove as you're concentrating on the metronome rather than the music (ideally you wanna be able to do both).
As for time being the drummer's OWN responsibility as well as his OWN to keep the band grooving - that's a load of claptrap to me, the way I see it, if it was down the drummer himself to groove and play time, what's the point in the others? Like I said, music is about communication and interaction between musicians and if one members going to be responsible for things, then it might as well just be that member playing.
I'd rather hear a drummer who's really grooving and responding to the music, but might drag or speed up a tiny bit here and there, than one who's perfectly in time, but so worried about staying in time that they sound stiff.

[Alexdrum75]

I just listened to cigar song, you sounded fine. If you want me to nit pick then I would say that there were parts that you could have driven more, but that's cos the music called for it, not the metronome. Don't get so worried about timing, you sound pretty solid to me and that was great drumming. Sometimes I reckon playing with a metronome can take away some of the groove as you're concentrating on the metronome rather than the music (ideally you wanna be able to do both).
As for time being the drummer's OWN responsibility as well as his OWN to keep the band grooving - that's a load of claptrap to me, the way I see it, if it was down the drummer himself to groove and play time, what's the point in the others? Like I said, music is about communication and interaction between musicians and if one members going to be responsible for things, then it might as well just be that member playing.
I'd rather hear a drummer who's really grooving and responding to the music, but might drag or speed up a tiny bit here and there, than one who's perfectly in time, but so worried about staying in time that they sound stiff.

Thanks, I will not reply here 'cause I don't want to monopolize the thread.
I'll reply here (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34127)

[Fresh_Dinosaur]

Thanks everyone. I'll definitely keep working with a metronome, and I'm going to take a look at recording devices as well.

[Fresh_Dinosaur]

By the way, one of my friends suggested just sitting in a dark room and watching the light on the metronome for a couple minutes every day, or listening to it while on the bus ride to school. Do you guys think either of those are good ideas?

[jonescrusher]

By the way, one of my friends suggested just sitting in a dark room and watching the light on the metronome for a couple minutes every day, or listening to it while on the bus ride to school. Do you guys think either of those are good ideas?

Probably not. Anyway, doing these things will leave you socially ostricised and will leave you with a reputation. No drummer should ever be reduced to listening to a metronome on a bus ride.

Best thing to do away from the drums is to listen to music on your headphones and listen carefully to the rhythm track; try and find the pulse, tap it out, sing it with your mouth, improvise around it. Just feeling the pulse of pieces of music will help sharpen up your sense of time.

[mind_drummer]

I think it hasn't been said but I found out that even when using a metronome I tend sometimes going out of time. The only solution I found to work it out is to countinue counting the tempo whatever it's 1&2&3&4& or 1&a2&a3&a4&a or 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a. If I concentrate counting then it's easier to lock into the tempo but as soon as I stop then maybe 20 bars later I'm whatever little bit (about 5bpm) before or after the beat.

Also dont forget that human body has a "confort zone", that's how I call it and mine is between 100 and 120 bpm. In that zone, I have no problem keeping the beat but as soon as I go outside, it's harder so that's why I need the help of the tempo count.

[wilsonbangy]

there is a alot to be said about a tired mind ... being mentally fit as well as physically is very important .. 3 days of solid drumming is tiring for the mind .... Dont be too hard on yourself .. peoples perception of timing is always very different .. And in big band drumming its very hard to keep timing down when over zealous horns are rushing and turning the pocket into a bag ... Timing is a hard one .. you know you're out or rushing or slowing down ... get your head in a click (of all tempos) and work on mental play and stamina within a no pressure environment .. but have fun with everything you do ..

Best of luck .. and again "Don't be to hard on yourself"

James

[veggo32]

My two cents.

When your in perfect time with a metronome, you won't be able to hear the metronome.

[Fresh_Dinosaur]

thanks a million everyone