Do I Really Have To ???

[Pete Stoltman]

It seems to me that there are endless questions on the theme of "do I really need to do this?" In some cases it's rudiments, lessons, and other technique questions. I'd like to open a discussion about why this is such a common concern. Some of the things may seem mundane like practicing paradiddles. Is it that we want the instant gratification of being able to play something without having to put the time into basics? I'll admit to being guilty in some aspects of my playing.

Of course I think that the answer is that it's up to how proficient you want to be at the craft. There are all kinds of examples of prominent musicians who came by their talent without having to do some things. In my experience these people are the exception rather than the rule. So maybe Buddy Rich never took a lesson. In what regard does that apply to me? I'm certainly not Buddy. Do I have to practice rudiments or independence studies? In my case yes. Why would I not want to do those things that make me a better musician? It boils down to what I am willing to do to make myself better. What are my goals? I think that if my goals are to become the best musician I can possibly be, then putting time and effort into those things are worth it.

What do you folks think? I tried to keep this thread relatively non-specific and just used rudiments and lessons as examples. I think you can apply the question to many different aspects of drumming.

[Alexdrum75]

It seems to me that there are endless questions on the theme of "do I really need to do this?" In some cases it's rudiments, lessons, and other technique questions. I'd like to open a discussion about why this is such a common concern. Some of the things may seem mundane like practicing paradiddles. Is it that we want the instant gratification of being able to play something without having to put the time into basics? I'll admit to being guilty in some aspects of my playing.

Of course I think that the answer is that it's up to how proficient you want to be at the craft. There are all kinds of examples of prominent musicians who came by their talent without having to do some things. In my experience these people are the exception rather than the rule. So maybe Buddy Rich never took a lesson. In what regard does that apply to me? I'm certainly not Buddy. Do I have to practice rudiments or independence studies? In my case yes. Why would I not want to do those things that make me a better musician? It boils down to what I am willing to do to make myself better. What are my goals? I think that if my goals are to become the best musician I can possibly be, then putting time and effort into those things are worth it.

What do you folks think? I tried to keep this thread relatively non-specific and just used rudiments and lessons as examples. I think you can apply the question to many different aspects of drumming.

Once I attended a 1 week course with Gary Chaffee and talking with him I was told that to be an accomplished musician is 90% hard work 10% talent.

So, Gary told me that he doesn't really believe in a "talent" as much as he believes in "hard workers"

[foursticks]

Most people these days are always looking for the shortest route possible to become a great drummer. Frankly, however, what many people don't realise that there are no real shortcuts.

I, myself, don't really believe in talent either. Okay, some people may learn things faster than others, but that doesn't mean they don't practise like others.
Think about it this way: yes, you are better than others at whatever it is you're good at, but why not make yourself even better?

Tony Williams was one of the greats and most 'talented', but I read somewhere that one of things Alan Dawson said about him when Tony first went to him was that Tony had no technique. Goes to show how much effort he put into correcting that.

I also think Buddy Rich worked his ass off in when he first started off drumming. The man makes some bold claims, but when you're consistantly drumming live every night then maybe you don't need to practise as much.

Again, though it's all about what you want out of the craft.

You wanna be a great drummer, you're best being a great hard worker first.

[jay norem]

What you really have to do is play out in the field, so to speak. I was fortunate to get in at the tail end of the nightclub era. Six nights a week, four sets a night, playing whatever was thrown at me. I was 18, a high-school dropout new to the big city, and found myself in a sink-or-swim situation. Back then nightclubs had house-bands, and you'd have a comedian, a singer or two, and then you'd play music for people to dance to.It was all pretty much jazz-based stuff, standards, that sort of thing. And there was always a place that stayed open late where you could go to jam with other club musicians after you got off work. There's no better learning experience than that. .
These days the young guys don't really have that kind of thing, so teachers are pretty essential I guess. But you have to play with other musicians, as often as you can.

[Deltadrummer]

Thanks, Pete

I want to be a professional drummer; but I don't want to spend hours and hours playing the instrument to learn how to play it. But I want to spend hours and hours making money performing with it.

Question is, Why don't people want to spend hours and hours studying and practicing an instrument that they think they really love and want to be proficient at it?

non sequitors are enticing.

I think that there is so much bad music making out there and people don't know the difference.. So they may not understand why people revere Papa Jo, Joe Morello or Max Roach and want to spend hours and hours to get a glimpse at what it would be like to play like them. Then if you say that you are deemed a snob.

[burnthehero]

Most people these days are always looking for the shortest route possible to become a great drummer.

That pretty much sums it up. We don't live in a society that values hard work and determination. We live in an ADD American Idol society that tells us to take the shortest route possible to success. Bottom line...if you want to be good at ANYTHING, you're going to have to put in the time and work to get to the higher levels of ability.

[gusty]

We don't live in a society that values hard work and determination.

That's a bit general...

[foursticks]

That's a bit general...

But it's generally the truth...

[gusty]

But it's generally the truth...

Well...other influences (teachers, parents, etc) say that, for instance, employers will look out for hard working, determined people (among other character traits).

[Deltadrummer]

Well...other influences (teachers, parents, etc) say that, for instance, employers will look out for hard working, determined people (among other character traits).

I agree. I would have to say that indeed if you don't have a strong work ethic and determination, you would be lost. But it seems that in the music biz today, this does not include taking the time to learn your instrument.

For me, I just see these guys like Morello, Gadd and Tony Williams, as representing the highest form of set drumming, much like Isaac Stern or Itzhak Perlmen on the violin. That doesn't mean you should give up and not play fiddle in your blue grass band on a Saturday night, and actually I think Perlman put out a blue grass album. But it is nice to try to learn as much as possible from what the masters are doing and to understand that it is an ideal worth aspiring towards.

[fat in the middle]

I find peoples quests to see if they need to study this or that, rudiments etc are really people reaching out for confirmation on uncharted terrain. There is an overwhelming amount of resourses on the internet. I find people are just saturated, and have too many options. I also feel the younger folks have more electronic gadjets like video games to keep themselves occupied with. And whats with this new rock band game?....Point being that we need [myself included] to disipline ourselves with both the aid of the net etc, and without, using old school ways.

[Alexdrum75]

That pretty much sums it up. We don't live in a society that values hard work and determination. We live in an ADD American Idol society that tells us to take the shortest route possible to success. Bottom line...if you want to be good at ANYTHING, you're going to have to put in the time and work to get to the higher levels of ability.

This is a bit strange: I, in Italy,, I'm being told that the american society is one of the few where only the hard work and talent is rewarded. All other things don't count.

Here in Italy is just the opposite: we have mafia, clientelism. I'm especially exposed to this since I work at the University as a biologist.

Now you came to me telling that also USA is getting the wrong route...

[foursticks]

But it seems that in the music biz today, this does not include taking the time to learn your instrument.

And that's the whole point and what this thread is about. I wasn't talling about other professions, etc. there's plenty of hard-working there, but in mainstream musicb these daysb is more about image than true musicianship. Image was always and will probably always be a part of music, but it's saddening how the image is now more important than the music.

[jonescrusher]

Here in Italy is just the opposite: we have mafia, clientelism. I'm especially exposed to this since I work at the University as a biologist.



Pray, tell me more! How does working as a Biologist at a university get you entangled with the Mafia?

[Alexdrum75]

Pray, tell me more! How does working as a Biologist at a university get you entangled with the Mafia?

It depends where you work: if you work in the south part of Italy, basically to live, you have to be entangled with the Mafia.

But I was referring to the "Mafia" as a general way of thinking, not the Mafia itself.

[Alexdrum75]

And that's the whole point and what this thread is about. I wasn't talling about other professions, etc. there's plenty of hard-working there, but in mainstream musicb these daysb is more about image than true musicianship. Image was always and will probably always be a part of music, but it's saddening how the image is now more important than the music.

IMHO I disagree: there's plenty mainstream music where if you haven't hard-worked your ass off you don't enter a studio.

[foursticks]

IMHO I disagree: there's plenty mainstream music where if you haven't hard-worked your ass off you don't enter a studio.

At playing the instrument or getting recognised? I mean't instrumental wise, you don't have to even have a shed of creativity or even be able to play your instrument, in order to make it.
Alright, I'll admit I'm being a bit too general and frankly I don't listen to that much 'mainstream' music as, at the moment, nothing really excites me. Could you give a few examples?
Artists such as 50 Cent (not to pick on him) tend to be what I'm talking about. The man's language is vulgar, his music lacks any passion and I'm sick of hearing about how much money he has. Okay, not all mainstream is rap, etc. but it tends to lack any passion or meaning as such.

I'm rambling now I guess - but those are my views on it.

[Deltadrummer]

At playing the instrument or getting recognised? I mean't instrumental wise, you don't have to even have a shed of creativity or even be able to play your instrument, in order to make it.
Alright, I'll admit I'm being a bit too general and frankly I don't listen to that much 'mainstream' music as, at the moment, nothing really excites me. Could you give a few examples?
Artists such as 50 Cent (not to pick on him) tend to be what I'm talking about. The man's language is vulgar, his music lacks any passion and I'm sick of hearing about how much money he has. Okay, not all mainstream is rap, etc. but it tends to lack any passion or meaning as such.

I'm rambling now I guess - but those are my views on it.

Mainstream music? Do you know how many people I play Porcupine Tree for that have never heard them and can't believe that they have never heard them?

If you can write music as mainstream and accessible as PT and still go relatively unnoticed, something is wrong.

Most people know more about Brittany's underwear, or lack there of, than the surge in Iraq, and how the war has cost us 1.3 trillion dollars. Those same people could probably tell you how long Paris was in jail.

Mainstream music, just spend ten minuted listening to FUSE and then talk to me about how its not all crap.

[foursticks]

Mainstream music? Do you know how many people I play Porcupine Tree for that have never heard them and can't believe that they have never heard them?

If you can write music as mainstream and accessible as PT and still go relatively unnoticed, something is wrong.

Most people know more about Brittany's underwear, or lack there of, than the surge in Iraq, and how the war has cost us 1.3 trillion dollars. Those same people could probably tell you how long Paris was in jail.

Mainstream music, just spend ten minuted listening to FUSE and then talk to me about how its not all crap.

We're getting the term 'mainstream' mixed up - I mean't stuff that's in the charts, Britney Spears, that scene, not modern day music as there's some truly great stuff out there, but compare today with 40 years ago where everyone knew who great musicians like Hendrix were or Cream - it's not the same.
Well either way, there certainly are many hardworking great musicians out there, but you still don't hear about them - like you said yourself.

[Deltadrummer]

I think that people today may not be aware that bands like Cream and the Hendrix Experience broke the top 5, Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick was Number One as was the follow up Passion Play, at least here in the States. Mahavishnu Orchestra's Birds of Fire cracked the top twenty back in '73. So in that sense, it was mainstreamed. Regardless of what people will say about how fusion or progressive rock destroyed the 3 minute song, there were plenty of Paul MCartney, Elton John, Carly Simon and John Denver songs breaking the top ten, and people were listening to both.

Then punk came along and people no longer needed to know how to play, and it was validated by its working class ethos; but most of the jazzers, though some were college educated, came from working class families, and many were from rural areas. Dave Brubeck was born on a farm, as was Ian Anderson actually. They learned how to play because they loved music and they loved their instrument. When you separate music from that, you get Britanny Spears.

[Styx]

What you put in, is what you get out.

[Pete Stoltman]

They learned how to play because they loved music and they loved their instrument. When you separate music from that, you get Britanny Spears.

You know Ken, I'm liking you more all the time! LOL Saturday night my band played a gig and when we were done they started playing the house system with this junk by "Soulja Boy" . I can't remember being so offended by what passes for music in today's society. I know this thread is taking a wide turn off the original topic but had to respond to your post. Very insightful.

[fat in the middle]

You know Ken, I'm liking you more all the time! LOL Saturday night my band played a gig and when we were done they started playing the house system with this junk by "Soulja Boy" . I can't remember being so offended by what passes for music in today's society. I know this thread is taking a wide turn off the original topic but had to respond to your post. Very insightful.

Its not just happening in music, its happening in food, conversation and many parts of western culture. To me it seems easy to understand. My nephew is playing videos now, and when asked if he would rather take his playstation or his guitar to a desert island, the video would win.
Other peoples junk is others treasures. Although I would most likely agree with you Pete about Soulja Boy', I am trying to not get into to trap of becoming an old git and dissing things too early. There has always been crap out there, and always will, there just is more access to it now. So to keep on track of this thread, I feel the disipline we need these days is in the art of abstaining from media, Internet, and general things that promote the short attention spans we are producing in the youth and beyond. How easy is it to distract oneself !?

[Deltadrummer]

Its not just happening in music, its happening in food, conversation and many parts of western culture. To me it seems easy to understand. My nephew is playing videos now, and when asked if he would rather take his playstation or his guitar to a desert island, the video would win.
Other peoples junk is others treasures. Although I would most likely agree with you Pete about Soulja Boy', I am trying to not get into to trap of becoming an old git and dissing things too early. There has always been crap out there, and always will, there just is more access to it now. So to keep on track of this thread, I feel the disipline we need these days is in the art of abstaining from media, Internet, and general things that promote the short attention spans we are producing in the youth and beyond. How easy is it to distract oneself !?

I would be writing this post but I am not because I refuse to be distracted by the internet.:)

I think you put your finger on what people are feeling about contemporary culture.

My feeling is that it is also partly an attitude about music. In other words, Since the 70's there has been a dominant understanding that music was a way to make big money. And for working class kids that is a big incentive. People try to make music and write songs with that incentive alone, never minding trying to give something back to the culture of music making. If you do that long enough, the culture of music making dies.

For me , as a musician, this is not an aesthetic question, but a moral one. There is really not much music that I really hate. And I think I have an unhealthy preoccupation with finding the redeeming quality in everything. But if musicians who devote their lifetime to the craft are having a hard time of it, and Holllywood celebs are making a lot of money in music, there is something morally wrong with the culture at hand. And if you are a kid growing up with all that, why should you want to really learn your instrument; you may feel, that the more you know, the less likely you will be successful.

So the logical question would then be, Do I really need to learn all this?

But if the kids were being exposed to a lot of music with great fills, great grooves, great use of rudiments, great technique, they would be asking, "How do I get to learn all this?"

[zambizzi]

Good discussion.

There was a thread similar to this, not long ago. One of the questions I posed was; is the mainstream music industry just concerned w/ finding something they can make a quick buck with vs. rewarding hard work, talent, and dedication...the obvious answer is "yes". If it has a marketable image (i.e. pretty faces, snappy clothes, and a simple..catchy sound) then the financial reward seems easier. This appears to be the way to "get rich" as an entertainer...at least for 15 minutes. This is why the market is saturated w/ carbon-copies of the same crap. This cycle continues for years until that market collapses (e.g. "boy bands").

Look at all the excellent, talented, hard-working musicians you see in dirty little clubs all over the country (or world, for that matter, I'm sure.) Most of these folks are never heard of outside of their city, community, region, etc. It's not for their lack of dedication or drive, they may just not be as marketable as the rap group, "punk" band, etc. that was tossed together in a corporate meeting room somewhere.

So - what you learn isn't necessarily relative to how you'll be rewarded in terms of fame, fortune, and good times. I guess it can be said that if you work at it - you can be as good as you want. If you don't work at it, you simply will not be as good. If you don't diversify your skills, practice your rudiments, exercises, play with other musicians regularly...your chops won't grow as fast.

[Pete Stoltman]

Thanks guys for an interesting discussion so far. I'll just throw one more thought in about the current "music" scene and then drop it. I have a recording of comedian Sam Kinnison shortly before he died in which he mocked rap music. Essentially he made up some vulgar phrases and then riffed on that. It was pretty funny as he referred to himself as a "rap song writing machine!". Oddly the things that he talked about that I thought was so vulgar at the time is not far from the reality of what I hear today.

[Stu_Strib]

there were plenty of Paul MCartney, Elton John, Carly Simon and John Denver songs breaking the top ten

Why are Paul McCartney, Elton John and others like them still relevant today? Because they made (or still make) great music. Will SouljaBoy, 50 cent, Fall-Out-Boy or the Pussycat Dolls be able to say the same?

[Deltadrummer]

Why are Paul McCartney, Elton John and others like them still relevant today? Because they made (or still make) great music. Will SouljaBoy, 50 cent, Fall-Out-Boy or the Pussycat Dolls be able to say the same?

No doubt they are great song writers. But there were plenty of crappy songs back then too. It just seems that they didn't overshadow real talent.

I was listening to My heart Will Go On the other day in the bagel shop. I never liked Celine Dion, but she is the biggest thing in Vegas, right. She is a horrible singer and that song is a prime example; But she sang for that movie, it was huge so people like here and now she is huge. Compare her to Shirley Bassey.

[DestinationDrumming]

No doubt they are great song writers. But there were plenty of crappy songs back then too. It just seems that they didn't overshadow real talent.

I think this is about the 'mists of time' effect. We forget/play down the crappy songs that were out then. Just have a look at the records that were in the top 40 in the late 60's early 70's some of it is absolute crap. When we look back on this time the same thing will happen. The likes of 50cent (way overvalued in my opinion!) and PC Dolls and that woman who won X Factor this year will disappear. Some of the things we'll remember are Foo Fighters, Keane, Kaiser Cheifs etc etc and many great more. Some we'll like and some we won't. The odd thing (and I think good thing) is that Britney will persevere because her song writers and musicians were the best money could buy...just hit her one more time! Same thing goes for the pop princess Kylie, again she will be remembered because she has great musicians behind her.

Anyway back to the point. I think people ask about the long road to musicianship because, at times, it's a hard road to tread. Sometimes people do need confirmation and support to help them understand that the reason they are finding this particular technique or groove difficult is because 'it is' and not because they are stupid or slow. Remember when playing consistant 16th's on your hi-hat seemed impossible? These people are at the same point. Much better they post here rather than they spit the dummy (pacifier) and give up drumming altogether. I think it is our responsibility (whatever our level of ability or experience) to support people and offer them community spirit.

Remember next week it could be you trying to work out something and finding it really difficult. Then you might need that word of support and confirmation that 'yes it is difficult' and it is right that you are finding it difficult.

Happy New Year to all and good luck with your drumming
Kevin

[Deltadrummer]

This is actually a phenomenon that is happening in all areas of music, and it is argued whether or not it is happening. Broadway, for example, though it is in a Disney upsurge since Rudy redid 42nd St. is not seeing the kind of works written and performed as it did in the hey days of Gershwin, Weill, Rodgers, and Kern, etc. The Concert Hall doesn't seem to be attracting the likes of a Bartok or Stravinsky, never mind a Beethoven or Mozart. Rock music is not creating the type of super talents we saw in the later 60s to mid 70's: The Beatles, Floyd, Zep, Stones, Who. Are there great song writers out there that equal Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon or Carole King.?

It is a fascinating question but if you look at the demise of rock music, it is certainly arguable that it happened with the conglomeration of the recording industry in '73. Broadway is a different story; but certainly financing is a big part of the equation. Nobody is going to invest 2-6 million dollars in a show that may close in two weeks. In the concert hall, it is hard to sell tickets to hear new music, and Beethoven always sells.

So what do you do?

[DestinationDrumming]

Ah Broadway! I'd have to disagree because musical theatre seems to be having a renaissance in the UK largely due to Webber and Rice. Easily as good as Rogers and Hammerstein...although I do prefer the latter.

I think you're right about the music business it has changed. Nowadays 'tinternet has made things much more immediate. The charts used to be made up of record sales at specific record shops. Therefore the chart positions moved less frequently hence Bohemiam Rapsody was at No1 in the UK for, what seemed like, 14 years. So did Bryan Adams with 'Everything I do'. To get to No1 now I think you only need a few hundred sales and a load of downloads, publicity and other things I know nothing about. This makes groups quite fleeting in our eyes and less likely to result in a 'super' group. There are some still about Chilli Peppers and Oasis to name 2.

I also agree with your comments about society in general. People today are in a disposable society. So if you can't master it in a few days/weeks/months then buy a machine that can do it for you or give up and do something else.

"It'll all come right in the wash" as my Mum used to say.

[Deltadrummer]

I hope people don't mind that we are dominating the thread.

It is funny that you picked the person who many people would say exemplifies the decline of musical theater. I like the early stuff; but a lot of the later stuff is just junk. Phantom is rehashed Puccini. I actually like it though because you can get away with piracy in an homage to opera.

Tim Rice is very talented though, and it is no coincidence that ALW did what I would say were his best works with Rice. He also has done a good job with the Disney stuff, which is not really to my taste, but I'm not ten.

I hear your point though and it may be all water under the bridge as the internet continues to change the way music is dispensed. Will it lead to a decline in a sense of a mainstream; like there was ever actually something that 'everybody' liked?

[Pete Stoltman]

Wow, now we're on to musical theatre! Never had a thought that this thread would take such a diverse turn and develop some of the insightful comments I've seen so far.
I think, theater is suffering quite a bit these days too. Not that there aren't good musicals (or at least successful ones) but the music end of things is getting the short end of the stick. How many musicians play in a typical pit these days? Usually it's a fairly small group of people and in some cases playing along with canned background stuff.
I recently saw a documentary about Jerry Herman (Hello Dolly, Mame, etc.) he mentioned that during one of his productions they specifically hired performers for their specific talents and in fact hired a mezzo-soprano just to hit the high notes in a particular piece. Now the performers have to sing, dance, act, etc. Great for versatile people I guess but probably limits folks with specialized talents.

[DestinationDrumming]

I hope people don't mind that we are dominating the thread.
I hear your point though and it may be all water under the bridge as the internet continues to change the way music is dispensed. Will it lead to a decline in a sense of a mainstream; like there was ever actually something that 'everybody' liked?

Can't imagine they would :o)

I think, or hope, it gets the record companies thinking about how they have pimped off artists and the general public for such a long time. Radiohead was a great example of how the internet makes artists rich and not the record companies. Release your album for whatever people want to pay and they made more on this than any other album. Myspace, Youtube all of them have helped to promote bands further than they ever could have but unfortunately most probably never see a dime of profit or even pay for their expenses. Come the revolution!

[DestinationDrumming]

they specifically hired performers for their specific talents and in fact hired a mezzo-soprano just to hit the high notes in a particular piece. Now the performers have to sing, dance, act, etc. Great for versatile people I guess but probably limits folks with specialized talents.

Really interesting thread this Pete, thanks.

In the really old days of B+W movies (1920/30's) they used to get singers in when the actor or actress couldn't sing a note. The singers would record the soundtrack. Mezzo-soprano is a bit high for me....even in these jeans!

[dea]

Have you checked out Disney and Nickelodian? They are pumping out pre-teen musicians like gangbusters.

[Deltadrummer]

I think, theater is suffering quite a bit these days too. Not that there aren't good musicals (or at least successful ones) but the music end of things is getting the short end of the stick. How many musicians play in a typical pit these days? Usually it's a fairly small group of people and in some cases playing along with canned background stuff.
I recently saw a documentary about Jerry Herman (Hello Dolly, Mame, etc.) he mentioned that during one of his productions they specifically hired performers for their specific talents and in fact hired a mezzo-soprano just to hit the high notes in a particular piece. Now the performers have to sing, dance, act, etc. Great for versatile people I guess but probably limits folks with specialized talents.


Jerry Herman, another great. That's why I think it is really problematic to call the Golden Age of Broadway the period that ends with West Side Story. That period is really the Golden Age of Oscar Hammerstein. To insinuate that musical theater somehow died then would be to say the the works of Sondheim, Herman, and Kander/Ebb, or Fosse, Prince and Michael Bennett were all substandard.

So even though Broadway just may be suffering, partly due to AIDS, partly due to just change, all these Disney and the 'high school' musicals are creating a new generation of kids who grew up listening to musical theater. The audience is the most important part of music making after all. :)

[Pete Stoltman]

Hey I just saw a performance on Letterman's show from the cast of "Young Frankenstein". Could this be a new trend? Musical made based on a movie instead of the other way around?

[Deltadrummer]

Hey I just saw a performance on Letterman's show from the cast of "Young Frankenstein". Could this be a new trend? Musical made based on a movie instead of the other way around?


Well, it is certainly a trend but it is not new. The Disney musicals:Lion King, Little Mermaid, Tarzan, (written by Phil Collins) Beauty and the Beast were all movies first. So this has been going on for about ten years now. Chitty, Chitty Bang Bang, Mary Poppins, The Producers, Hairspray, Xanadu and The Color Purple are other examples, and now there is even a one man show of A Bronx Tale with Chazz Palminteri. There have been other movies that have been done as dramatic shows as well: Twelve Angry Men comes to mind. Half of the shows on Broadway are even movies, or since they are revivals, have been done as movies already: A Chorus Line, Cabaret, Grease, Annie Get Your Gun.

In the "Golden Age of Broadway," the people who went to the theater were largely NYer's. But today the audience is made up of tourists and people from the burbs. They want to see some family entertainment, and something they are familiar with if they are going to lay down 50-100 bucks a ticket.

As an aside, R and H were trying for years to do a musical adaptation of Shaw's Pygmalion. Lerner and Loewe finally completed one as My Fair Lady, which they were able to do because they based the story around an earlier film of the play not the play itself. So there you have an example from way back where film influenced Broadway. My Fair Lady starred Julie Andrews and Mary Martin turned down the role. She was slated to do The Sound of Music. R and H loved Julie Andrews and recommended her for My Fair Lady. Saying that Mary Martin is infamous for turning down good roles is like saying Steve Gadd is notorious for turning down a session when he is recording with Paul Simon or James Taylor.

[Pete Stoltman]

oops, thanks for the reminders. I tend to be partial to the "Golden Age" stuff as you call it. Didn't even think of all the Disney based shows and the others you mentioned. Last night I saw a replay of the Jerry Herman documentary and it got me interested in checking out a couple of the shows that were not as successful. Some great tunes but apparantly suffered at the box office because people were expecting another Mame or Dolly and he took a turn towards a different direction. Not exactly the same "feel good" stuff but wonderful music none the less.

[Deltadrummer]

My mom actually dragged me to see La Cage on Broadway. I was a little clueless though, so I really didn't know what it was about. All I remember was that it was a night of feather boas.

I'm a big Sondheim fan myself. I haven't seen the film Sweeney Todd with Johnny Depp yet, I'm not a Tim Burton fan. But that has got to be my favorite musical, Company was well. If the Golden Age of Broadway was characterized by the operettas of Oscar Hammerstein. The subsequent (Platinum Age?) is definitely the Age of Sondheim. Most musical theater composers are remembered for just a couple of works if not a single work. Kern is remembered for Show Boat, Gershwin for Porgy and Bess. But Sondheim; like Hammerstein really has quite a number of powerful works to his credits.

[jangus]

The average American would much rather skip practicing and get rich with Jack White than work hard to become Dave Weckl and only be a moderate success.

[Pete Stoltman]

Based on the location of questions I see arise on the forums here I don't think I'd limit this scenario to Americans. Truthfully when I started this thread I wasn't thinking just about monetary success but the guys who seem to want to get instant technique by means other than good old woodshedding. It seems to manifest itself in discussion about how an individual can become a good player but not have to do things like take lessons, learn rudiments, practice with a metronome, learn proper grip, etc.
My overall feeling on this is that it depends on where you want to go with music/drumming. If you want to have fun for a few years and bash away in your basement by yourself and maybe some buddies then anything goes. However, if you intend to be somewhat serious about music and learning the instrument you probably need to spend time doing the things that we sometimes think of as mundane. You will, in fact become better, faster by spending time doing these things than you will by avoiding them.

[Deltadrummer]

I know you want to get back on track but I wanted to add that the penchant for doing films as musicals actually dates back to the 1980's with 42nd Street. If you check www.musicals101.com under the 1980's, many of the big musicals were based on films, and some were even adaptations of film musicals.Then Beauty and the Beast hit in 1994 after the 1991 film and its been nothing but Disney since.:)

One could say that we are living in the generation of Disney film musicals, and that probably won't change for another ten years. But when you walk around Broadway, it is nothing but tourists and teenagers. Back when I was a kid, a teenager could not walk around Broadway; not without being propositioned by the ugliest hookers. It certainly was not a safe place.

[DestinationDrumming]

If you want to have fun for a few years and bash away in your basement by yourself and maybe some buddies then anything goes.

Even to do this you'll need to put in some hard work. It's all about making the music sound good.

[cnw60]

Back when I was a kid, a teenager could not walk around Broadway; not without being propositioned by the ugliest hookers. It certainly was not a safe place.

ahh - the good old days... :)