Buying new kit - Opinions?

[Warthog]

Hey all, looking to pick up a new kit to replace my current one. (Well actually, I'd keep my current kit at home, and put the new one in the jam bay). I play mostly metal.

My current kit is a 5 piece Mapex ProM with an iron cobra double pedal, Sabian cymbals. It's fine but I'm looking to move up, specifically, I want to move to double bass drums and get myself some more toms. Also, inspired by Derek Roddy, I want to try out Axis pedals with an EKit trigger. I've never played any triggered drums before so that would be all new to me.

Of course, like most, I'm on a budget. So I spoke with the local drum guy at my closest music store and this is what I got out of him, just wanted to hear other opinions.

First, he recommends the Pearl Vision line. Originally I was looking at ECX but it turns out those are a tad expensive. What I'm a bit concerned about is that the Vision aren't maple, where my ProMs are. Does Birch/Maple really make that much of a difference? I couldn't really tell any playing between a Birch to Maple set at the store, is this just sort of an audophile kind of thing? :) Or is it just me and most drummers could really take a double-blind test and tell the sound difference? Or does Birch versus Maple make any other differences (tolerance to temperature, humidity) that aren't immediately obvious? When I bought my Mapex kit the sales guy was adamant about extoling the virtues of it being maple but didn't really give any reasons why that was a good thing.

Second, for the triggering, I figure if Axis longboards and EKit triggers are good enough for Mr. Roddy then they are plently good enough for me, but, I have no idea what to plug those into. Local store recommends either a Roland TD3 or Allesis DM5, using 2 'Thump' 15 inch powered monitors. (For live playing, local bar gigs and such, no staduims :) ). Any comments on those? Is there a better sound module to use? I'm only going to trigger the bass pedals, at least, that's the plan right now.

Last, I got prices on everything, just wanted to get a sanity check on those. The Pearl VLX Kit is two 22x18 bass drums, 8/10/12/13 mounted toms, 14/16 floor tom, snare, and hardware, for $2k Canadian. Sabian AAX 20" ride, 16" Crash, 14 and 13" Hats, hat clamp and remote hat, for $1k Canadian. Two Thump 15" powered speakers, stands, and DM5 module for $1400 Canadian. They can't get Axis, so I've yet to find a place for that, any recommendations for a place to order those from?

Thanks in advance for any comments/suggestions!

[Class A Drummer]

Dont go for the Vision. In my opinion go with Gretsch. The catalina line is such a great set for the price. Definitley look into them before buying anything.

[nhzoso]

Well I have talked to 2 differeny managers from 2 diffrent stores 1 sells pearl and the other does not but they both said they have heard nothing but good things about those new Pearl Visions. Reading up on them and some of the reviews it looks like they put alot of thought and effort into them.

Any chance you can play on one before buying it?? Sounds like they make everything you want in a kit.

[Warthog]

Any chance you can play on one before buying it?? Sounds like they make everything you want in a kit.

Oh, well it's not really a 'set', I just built it up from one of the 5 piece sets with extra drums.

[Numberonefan]

I can’t say much about the drums other than we chose maple Sonor 3007’s over all other kits in that bracket. Maybe the 2007’s are closer to the visions.
As for the Thumps… Not a great choice at all. Tapco is a low cost Chinese manufacturer of run of the mill unreliable sound gear. In about the same league as the Behringer crap. Tapco hangs everything on it’s association with Mackie but Mackie has nothing to do with the manufacturing of Tapco products otherwise they would put the Mackie name in it and charge you more for it. Since you’re in Canada I’d look at the Yorkville line… Even a powered box like the YX is miles ahead of the Tapco… Solid plywood construction a real warranty, decent drivers the list goes on…
However I’d back up and rethink this…
If you’re playing out in a bar you or the bar will have a PA negating the need for these speakers. In your practice space you certainly will not need to boost the kick.
Second if only for the kick you will need to be in the 40 to 100hz and a full range 15inch with a horn is not the way to go in reproducing these frequencies… What you want is a purpose built sub with a single or double 18 and no horn at all.
Again your or the bars PA should already have this.
If you’re going to trigger the kit I’d spend less on the kit and more on the sound module. You could run a bottom barrel kit as now your sound is reproduced electronically by the module.
You have 1400 in the budget to reproduce the sound of your kick.
My feeling is it would be better spent on a decent quality set of drum mics for the entire kit.
For that kind of money you could have a decent mic on every tom your snare your kick and still have a few bucks to pick up a couple of overhead condensers.
Now the audience can hear your entire kit… now they can hear the grand you dropped in cymbals. Now they can appreciate the 2 grand you dropped on the kit.

Just another option to get you thinking…

[Warthog]

For that kind of money you could have a decent mic on every tom your snare your kick and still have a few bucks to pick up a couple of overhead condensers.
Now the audience can hear your entire kit… now they can hear the grand you dropped in cymbals. Now they can appreciate the 2 grand you dropped on the kit.

Just another option to get you thinking…

Hmm, that's an interesting thought. I was considering the triggers for three reasons, first, I muffle my bass drum quite a bit. I like to have more of a 'tick' noise than a resonant 'boom'. However, this lowers the volume somewhat. In a confined space, with guitar blaring, the exhausting bass pedal work is lost. I figure if I trigger them, I can adjust the pedal hits to the ambient volume. I don't have any volume problems with any other drum.

Second, I was thinking that with two drums, it would be harder to tune them together. With triggers, it's less of an issue.

Third, I was hoping the triggers would give me more beat definition rather than a sort of 'buzz' noise at higher speeds.

If I could do the same sort of thing with mics, maybe that's the way I should go about it. Any recommendations on mics? (Brand, types, placement)?

[konaboy]

Just out of curiosity what has led you to want to go to two bass drums vs the double pedal like you have. Keep in mind Derek Roddy isn't paying what you're paying for his stuff and there's allot more going on behind the soundboard for him than you'll have access to. Don't totally base your decision on what your favorite drummer uses, base it on what your needs really are and the sound you are looking for. Also if you want more of a tick sound go with a harder beater like a wood or plastic with a falam patch on the head. Keep in mind two bass drums equals double the cost when replacing heads and at $50+ a head YIKES!!

[Numberonefan]

Hmm, that's an interesting thought. I was considering the triggers for three reasons, first, I muffle my bass drum quite a bit. I like to have more of a 'tick' noise than a resonant 'boom'. However, this lowers the volume somewhat. In a confined space, with guitar blaring, the exhausting bass pedal work is lost. I figure if I trigger them, I can adjust the pedal hits to the ambient volume. I don't have any volume problems with any other drum.

Second, I was thinking that with two drums, it would be harder to tune them together. With triggers, it's less of an issue.

Third, I was hoping the triggers would give me more beat definition rather than a sort of 'buzz' noise at higher speeds.

If I could do the same sort of thing with mics, maybe that's the way I should go about it. Any recommendations on mics? (Brand, types, placement)?

I am not a drummer. My son is however and my knowledge is primarily limited to what I have needed to learn to support him, as he is very young. My primary role is that of the bands soundman.
Therefore I can’t respond much to the specific drum issues your having but there are many here who can.
As for drum mics there are plenty available to do the job. The Sure beta 91 is my favorite but only used it once. The beta 52 is a great kick mic needing little EQ . The inexpensive PG 52 can also work however this takes a little more fiddling with the EQ to get a sound I like.
From other manufacturers the Audix D6 is a great mic or even the D112.
These manufacturers sell mic packs that are typically a better value than getting them individually.
http://www.audiopile.net/ Sells a very capable inexpensive mic. This is an online retailer of PA equipment with a great reputation. Mark the owner post on http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forumdisplay.php?f=33
Unfortunately they do not ship to Canada… but if you have a friend across the boarder…. :-)

[Warthog]

Just out of curiosity what has led you to want to go to two bass drums vs the double pedal like you have. Keep in mind Derek Roddy isn't paying what you're paying for his stuff and there's allot more going on behind the soundboard for him than you'll have access to. Don't totally base your decision on what your favorite drummer uses, base it on what your needs really are and the sound you are looking for. Also if you want more of a tick sound go with a harder beater like a wood or plastic with a falam patch on the head. Keep in mind two bass drums equals double the cost when replacing heads and at $50+ a head YIKES!!

I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned him, it's not fan worship going on here (I've never even listened to the bands he plays/played for), but I have seen the videos where he explains the ekit trigger and it looks like a really good setup. I suppose I should have said, I want to trigger my bass drum, and thinking about going about it the same way Mr. Roddy did. :). Aside from trying to take a page from his trigger book, the rest of what I'm looking to do has nothing to do with how he does stuff (or if it does, it's unintentional).

As for two separate drums, well, it's mostly a recommendation I've received from local metal drummers. They claim it's 'the' way to do faster double bass. I seem to hold my own with the single drum and double kick, but, I don't own a double setup, so it's hard to give an educated opinion. I've played on double kits, but it's not quite the same as having one and fitting it like a glove after hours and hours of play time. I figure it can't hurt anything, and if nothing else, gives me a place to mount my new toms.

[Warthog]

I am not a drummer. My son is however and my knowledge is primarily limited to what I have needed to learn to support him, as he is very young. My primary role is that of the bands soundman.
Therefore I can’t respond much to the specific drum issues your having but there are many here who can.

Hmm, ok, as a soundman, wouldn't the best way to go about it then be to trigger and mic? (Trigger the kicks, and mic the rest?). I'm not really looking to have dynamic kick levels, just consistent.

[Numberonefan]

Hmm, ok, as a soundman, wouldn't the best way to go about it then be to trigger and mic? (Trigger the kicks, and mic the rest?). I'm not really looking to have dynamic kick levels, just consistent.

Not for me. It’s a personal opinion. I’d much rather hear a well miced acoustic drum to appreciate the real sound of the drum rather than an electronic version of what a drum is supposed to sound like. I’m not saying you’ll never get a good sound out of triggers but you may have to spend much more than you think on outboard effects in your rack to tailor the sound after the module. It really depends on your taste and how picky you are. Or the taste of your expected audience.

Maybe an all-electronic kit would fit the bill? Or at the very least you could save a bundle on bass drums and pick up a couple of crapola units, as they will have a much lesser influence on the final sound. :-)

[tomk]

I think it would be a bitch to put up and take down your double bass kit...even transporting it. Especially during shows where the times get XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX up and you have to rush to set up and take down because the promoter tries to stay on schedule...If you aren't playing big clubs, I'd say stick with your current kit, buy a module and triggers, and trigger your single bass drum. Because along with all that stuff, you'll also have to buy a bunch of cases in order to carry everything. For me, I like to bring only what I need for that particular show. I like to set up my kit, play and take it down. I don't have to worry about any peices that I may leave behind or that may get lost or stolen etc. I think since you are introducing sophisticated electronics into the kit, it'd be better to keep it at what it is now. I say if you don't need it, don't bring it. Thats just my opinion. Although a kit of that magnitude would be killer!!! haha

[konaboy]

I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned him, it's not fan worship going on here (I've never even listened to the bands he plays/played for), but I have seen the videos where he explains the ekit trigger and it looks like a really good setup. I suppose I should have said, I want to trigger my bass drum, and thinking about going about it the same way Mr. Roddy did. :). Aside from trying to take a page from his trigger book, the rest of what I'm looking to do has nothing to do with how he does stuff (or if it does, it's unintentional).

As for two separate drums, well, it's mostly a recommendation I've received from local metal drummers. They claim it's 'the' way to do faster double bass. I seem to hold my own with the single drum and double kick, but, I don't own a double setup, so it's hard to give an educated opinion. I've played on double kits, but it's not quite the same as having one and fitting it like a glove after hours and hours of play time. I figure it can't hurt anything, and if nothing else, gives me a place to mount my new toms.

That's cool I've just read so many posts where people want there kits to sound just like their favorite drummer which is impossible. ;-) It can't hurt to have the second one it's true but it does cost to have it in initial purchase, BD's ain't cheap. It's true you can't really tell the difference till you have a kit you can sit down and tailor just the way you want it. Good luck and let us see some pics when you get it!

[metal overlord]

So your a metal drummer, wanting a maple double bass kit?


...Welcome to my world, lol.

Anyway, Check out Ddrum Dominion Maple, they run about 800-1000. And they sound pretty good. Although, the people who work at Ddrum don't like phones. I go to the music store, and it takes the sales guy 2 weeks to actually get ahold of some one who works there. Adding a second kick onto there should'nt cost alot more either.

And, as a metal drummer myself, I recommend a double kick set-up. Sure double-pedals are easier to transport, but 2 beaters on one skin can half its lifetime. Casuing you to buy more skins. If you play aggressive music, then double bass all the way. When you get into faster patterns, the double bass WILL sound much more powerful. Because when you strike the batter head with a double pedal, you strike it again while the drum is still resonating. In a double bass situation, you will have TWO bass drums resonating, unless you completely choke the drums with muffling, which should be a "no no." You see the picture?

[cnw60]

... unless you completely choke the drums with muffling, which should be a "no no." You see the picture?

From his description further up, it sounds like that's exactly what he wants to do. And I agree with you - what's the point of having all that potential for resonance if you're just going to choke it off with mufflers???

[Jazz]

b u y u s e d ! ....................................

[punkdrummer1]

used is a great way to go. I picked up a mint condition 3 peice tama superstar custom a guy only used for about a year for an amazing deal, as I got a free pearl eliminator hat stands, 2 tama cymbals stands (nice ones), a tama snare drum stand (nice one), and a splash boom arm. Buying used it great, and there's always deal's to be had.

As well, I love the sound of birch, but maple is a bit warmer, when birch has more attack.

[tomk]

So your a metal drummer, wanting a maple double bass kit?


...Welcome to my world, lol.

Anyway, Check out Ddrum Dominion Maple, they run about 800-1000. And they sound pretty good. Although, the people who work at Ddrum don't like phones. I go to the music store, and it takes the sales guy 2 weeks to actually get ahold of some one who works there. Adding a second kick onto there should'nt cost alot more either.

And, as a metal drummer myself, I recommend a double kick set-up. Sure double-pedals are easier to transport, but 2 beaters on one skin can half its lifetime. Casuing you to buy more skins. If you play aggressive music, then double bass all the way. When you get into faster patterns, the double bass WILL sound much more powerful. Because when you strike the batter head with a double pedal, you strike it again while the drum is still resonating. In a double bass situation, you will have TWO bass drums resonating, unless you completely choke the drums with muffling, which should be a "no no." You see the picture?


He wants triggers, so it doesn't matter. Bass drum heads last a loooooong loooooong time. If he's in doubt, he could just get an evans or remo patch to cover the contact points. two bassdrums, for anyone who actually gigs regularily and doesn't have their own drumtech or anything is really a waste. Because a, not every stage is the same size and b, lugging it all around is a bitch. And if he's just gonna triggger them, it really doesn't matter. For me it wouldn't be worth it. But its obviously his decision lol.

[Warthog]

Well, what I ended up doing was ordering the extra drums for my existing Mapex kit, and I just went out and bought a cheaper electric kit for home. So far, I'm quite happy with the electric kit, for home practice, it's perfect. For my acoustic kit, I'm ordering the axis pedals and ekit triggers, going to run those through an alesis dm5, and I'm going to get a set of mics for the rest of the drums. Thanks for all the input everyone, gave me lots to think about and try out.

As for setting up one extra bass drum for gigs.. geeze, do you all need to hit the gym more or what? :) You all make it sound like it's _so_ much more work. :P.

Stage size considerations I do understand, but I've yet to play somewhere where that's a huge problem. When I was playing guitar with a drummer with a double bass kit, if the stage was too small I just set up in front of it, no big deal.

[gretschgal1]

I researched for a solid year before I bought my kit.

I was seriously considering Pearl's MMP series (a six-piece: 10,12,13,14,22,14x3.5), and ended up with a Gretsch 6 piece (10,12,14,16,22, 14x6) CATALINA MAPLE right off the showroom floor for $600.00.

Yeah, it's a shellpack; I don't care. They sound lovely---they look great, and there's 150 years of building these things wrapped up in the company ......so.

I added a ZHT 3-pack, and one K-series Zildjian and I'm all good. Total cost of a brand-new kit? MAYBE $1800.00 It's not a double bass kit; But it is sturdy and I love the sounds I'm getting so far.

Suggestions for the snare? Remo Coated Ambassador (Top) Remo Clear Diplomat (bottom). You should be good to go.

Don't muffle things too much. A fleece blanket inside the kick, and a washcloth maybe inside my 14FT and that's IT. Let the kit ring a little bit.. (most of my muffling's on my snare; but it still rings). I think Gretsch was built to ring a little more....I'm used to it now. ;-))

I wouldn't go double-kick at all because it's just more to cart around. Microphone placement helps a lot with a big kick sound....why use TWO when tuned right, one sounds just as sweet?


My $.02 and a lot of research talkin' here....eventually, the choice is upto the guy layin' down all that cash!!!!!!!!
Good luck.
T

[zachwhite24]

Anybody know how i can get 4 carbon fiber pearl marching snare drums for cheap??

[mind_drummer]

What kind of PRO M ?

Why dont you add a second bass drum to your actual kit and maybe even add some toms and even a floor tom. I'm confused why you want to replace a kit with another one about of the same category level or even maybe downgrading little bit. Mapex Pro M thin shell are 100% maple while the VLX is mix of birch & basswood.

Why dont you save and just update your current kit ???

[Warthog]

What kind of PRO M ?

Why dont you add a second bass drum to your actual kit and maybe even add some toms and even a floor tom. I'm confused why you want to replace a kit with another one about of the same category level or even maybe downgrading little bit. Mapex Pro M thin shell are 100% maple while the VLX is mix of birch & basswood.

Why dont you save and just update your current kit ???

You are 100% correct, and that's what I ended up doing.

[mind_drummer]

You are 100% correct, and that's what I ended up doing.

Good then !

Dont forget to post pics :-)