Steve Smith- Drum Legacy "Standing on the Shoulders on Giants" New DVD

[tim1987]

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=88025481

Don't know if anyone's seen this preview clip, but looks great. Looking at some great jazz drummers of the past and the influence that they have on todays drumming language.

Steve and John Riley analyse people like Elvin, Max, Tony etc. I think because Riley's on it makes me want to buy it even more, due to me studying his books. I wish he would release an instructional dvd, it would be such a hit!

Can't wait till it comes out!!!

[NUTHA JASON]

hey, no fair - he's using my catch phrase.

j

[trkdrmr]

Gents,
I have had the pleasure of viewing the 1st 1:45 (through Elvin Jones) of DVD 1.I am about to hit the cot ...I have been at work all week and fighting a cold. So I am a little woozy...so bear with me.

Here are some observations:
I can never think of Steve Smith as anything less than "The master" ever again. His knowledge, fluidity, musicality and articulation are on par with any giant that has ever been. This is the evolved Steve Smith from his early days with Jon-Luc Ponty and Journey. He is far beyond that level now. What more can I say about a guy that both Steve Gadd and Neil Peart said: " I wish I could play like Steve Smith." It's on dvd as well.

This dvd captivated me as much, if not more than Steve's 1st outstanding dvds. Steve should get an honorary doctorate in musical history. This DVD isn't just a drum lesson or a history lesson, it's a musical education.

Some notes:
So far, he articulates the playing of several past masters like Gene Krupa, Philly Jo Jones, Buddy Rich, Max Roach and Elvin Jones.

I had no idea that Bonham was pretty much lifting phrases from Max Roach. I had assumed it was Krupa or maybe even Appice. It's all there...video of Max I have never seen and Steve Smith explaining everything from travelling triplets to stretching the fabric of the quarter note (Elvin).

Steve's playing is glorious. He glides across the kit like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the court. He *owns* that kit and demonstrates a solid understanding of music and all aspects of drumming. He is a great teacher as well. He plays phrases both normal and slowed, with flawless meter. He swings, grooves and he burns!

I can also comment on his kit...love the setup! (my new kit will look just like it's setup)

He plays Sonor sq2's with clear Remo ambs on the toms and some kind of fiberskyn or renaissance batter on a metal snare. Even though he extracts a wonderful open tone, I can hear the slappiness and thinness from the ambs. Were that my kit, it would have g2 clears instead. I can only dream...

He plays mystery DW pedals (with a strap drive I think) and some narrow (doughnut shaped) felt beaters. He has a great mix of Zildjian A's, K's (K custom hybrids) and Armand hats. He has a thick sounding hammered ride with no logo. As of yet, I have not researched what it is. It cuts like mad with a vicious ping, almost like a rude cymbal. He has two other rides, one on the left which is riveted.

He brings voices from the kit and cymbals that are just epic. He also refers to the drums as a "non melodic" instrument. He explains Max Roaches approach as "lyrical."

He steps through his 2006 Modern Drummer performance and his Jazz legacy music. Wonderful performances...very lively and exciting.

And folks, that's only part of DVD 1. More as I see it. So far, it has exceeded expectations.

[Toby_Jackson]

Yeah, great chops, great conversations, but the whole thing seems kind of pointless when the guy can't swing worth a damn.

[trkdrmr]

the whole thing seems kind of pointless when the guy can't swing worth a damn.

You are the only one on the planet who thinks so. That is so pathetically inaccurate it hurts my skull just to imagine such a possibility. The guy is 100% swing pulse. You must have been watching the Neil Peart dvd by mistake. Your opinion seems pointless to me, given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Omar Hakim was even blown away by Steve's swing and chops.

Smith doesn't just swing, he knows how to get in and out of the pocket in any time signature. He can add, bend or shape time to swing, groove or rock. He is one of the very few drummers that can explain every aspect of swing.

Saying he can't swing is like watching "dark knight" and saying "But he doesn't fight anyone in the movie...""

[sshu]

That DVD is an incredible DVD. The performances are spectacular, and there's a ton of things to digest. I have a bunch of drum DVDs, but many of them I don't go back to. I think the Drum Legacy DVD will be a bit of exception for me, as there are many nuggets of info and ideas in there. The PDF file that comes on the DVD is also one of the best I've seen in terms of transcribing and documenting key phases, songs, etc.

I have to say though, after watching Steve play and react to the various requests by John in the Q&A/discussion in real time, it can be a little daunting how Steve can move between so many ideas so effortlessly. I usually try to play stuff that just feels good. But sometimes I don't know whether I've playing 5s, or if I'm playing a particular rudiment, adapted something from another drummer or whatever. I'm just operating at a physical level in some sense. Steve Smith, on the other hand, not only plays stuff that feels good, but he can move in and out of the math, the history, drummers styles, note values, etc. with such clarity. He's got his subconscious, conscious, and body all connected and in high gear. It truly is scary.

If there's anything that I would have liked to see on the DVD, it would have been some of John Riley's playing.

John Riley's knowledge was also scary on the DVD. He was pulling out some history that even surprised Steve Smith.

Steve

[trkdrmr]

That DVD is an incredible DVD. The performances are spectacular, and there's a ton of things to digest. I have a bunch of drum DVDs, but many of them I don't go back to. I think the Drum Legacy DVD will be a bit of exception for me, as there are many nuggets of info and ideas in there. The PDF file that comes on the DVD is also one of the best I've seen in terms of transcribing and documenting key phases, songs, etc.

I have to say though, after watching Steve play and react to the various requests by John in the Q&A/discussion in real time, it can be a little daunting how Steve can move between so many ideas so effortlessly. I usually try to play stuff that just feels good. But sometimes I don't know whether I've playing 5s, or if I'm playing a particular rudiment, adapted something from another drummer or whatever. I'm just operating at a physical level in some sense. Steve Smith, on the other hand, not only plays stuff that feels good, but he can move in and out of the math, the history, drummers styles, note values, etc. with such clarity. He's got his subconscious, conscious, and body all connected and in high gear. It truly is scary.

If there's anything that I would have liked to see on the DVD, it would have been some of John Riley's playing.

John Riley's knowledge was also scary on the DVD. He was pulling out some history that even surprised Steve Smith.

Steve

I hope to see the rest of the dvd tonight/sunday. Steve is like a drumming PHD, and the great aspect that this dvd has, is a feeling of "open" learning. It's not just a guy, sitting on his kit in a basement that plays parts and has you repeat them. He tells you exactly why everything is happening, and how. He clearly demonstrates parts with an impeccable technique. Given the price, you get two dvd's, a cd and a comprehensive book and pdf. It's an amazing value, like a musical education toolkit. And the math hurts my head.

I could only dream of having a drum teacher that good.

[Ekim]

Well now I know what to get with my birthday money!

I had forgotten about this release. I also really want the Brushes video, but that can wait til later I guess.

[Muckster]

Yeah, great chops, great conversations, but the whole thing seems kind of pointless when the guy can't swing worth a damn.

All i can do is just laugh at that ridiculous statement! LOL

[Toby_Jackson]

Sorry guys, I just don't feel it. He's supposedly imitating guys like Roach, Blakey, Philly... but the feel doesn't come anywhere close. He simply CAN NOT swing like the masters.

These days guys like Billy Martin and Stanton Moore that do it for me in the feel department - Smith, while impressive and extremely knowledgeable, never EVER makes me want to dance.

Side note: anyone remember the John Bonham section from one of his other dvds... he pretty much embarrassed himself trying to match Bonzo's deep and heavy grooves.

[Muckster]

Sorry guys, I just don't feel it. He's supposedly imitating guys like Roach, Blakey, Philly... but the feel doesn't come anywhere close. He simply CAN NOT swing like the masters.

These days guys like Billy Martin and Stanton Moore that do it for me in the feel department - Smith, while impressive and extremely knowledgeable, never EVER makes me want to dance.

Side note: anyone remember the John Bonham section from one of his other dvds... he pretty much embarrassed himself trying to match Bonzo's deep and heavy grooves.

Fair enough...thanks for clearing that up...i now see where you are coming from and do agree that no one can copy the feel of another player exactly just as no one can copy the feel of Steve's unique style. My opinion is Steve was not trying to imitate these players more than he was trying to honor them and turn others on to discover / rediscover these great drummers. The dvd certainly got me back into "Philly Jo" mode.

[jamndrummer]

I too have purchased and watched this DVD. Steve has raised the bar high on what a DRUM/MUSIC DVD should contain. It will be really hard to view other instructional DVD's after viewing this one.

Watching this brought me to a high I cant explain.

STEVE SMITH is a giant himself and I only hope we all find that out while he is still alive not in the past.

[Wavelength]

Sorry guys, I just don't feel it. He's supposedly imitating guys like Roach, Blakey, Philly... but the feel doesn't come anywhere close. He simply CAN NOT swing like the masters.

These days guys like Billy Martin and Stanton Moore that do it for me in the feel department - Smith, while impressive and extremely knowledgeable, never EVER makes me want to dance.

I agree. He's a phenomenal technician, he's got flawless time, a vast vocabulary and a set of big ears, but he manages to sound clinical and sterile every time I hear him. That being said, I love his "History of the US Beat" DVD and just ordered "Standing..." from Amazon. There's a wealth of ideas and concepts to learn from him, and from an entertainment and an intellectual perspective he's the 5#17, but artistically... not so much.

[aydee]

I agree with muckster. It isn't imitating in as much as a nod to the masters. He is also acknowledging the source, and keeping it alive in his own way.

[Wavelength]

And you are...who? I don't think anybody short of 30+ years of professional experience having PLAYED swing music, can convey such criticism.

Show me your vids SWINGIN' a big band or even by yourself, and we'll see if we can give some real credence to your statements.

You don't need to be a master musician in order to say how a drummer's playing makes you feel.

[sshu]

FWIW - I have the "History of the US Beat" and the "Art of Playing With Brushes Video". While both of these are great videos, I think the Legacy DVD is a step up in terms of historical analysis and value. Insomuch as I find John Riley's books great in terms of breaking down jazz concepts and acknowledging key vocabularies and philosophies of different players, I find the Legcay work to be an excellent video version of that type of style of analysis. Steve gives a great nod to excellent players, openly analyzes things with John, and exposes people some of the underlying elements (as an intro) in breakdown and performance form.

Steve

[Ian Ballard]

You don't need to be a master musician in order to say how a drummer's playing makes you feel.

But we also don't want to degrade these forums into "YouTube comments" either. I'll leave this be.

I think it's most constructive to deal with the content and purpose of the DVD and leave the ad hominems for some other forum.

[caddywumpus]

I have all 3 of his DVDs, and they're great for what they are: a resource for historical and technical knowledge, but not necessarily a lesson in feel. Steve Smith has his own feel, which is GREAT in my opinion. He uses his tools with expert consideration and with much thought and is a good showman, but I can't bring myself to admit that he swings like the masters...

[blink44]

What more can I say about a guy that both Steve Gadd and Neil Peart said: " I wish I could play like Steve Smith." It's on dvd as well.

that is amazing that gadd/peart said that.

[trkdrmr]

that is amazing that gadd/peart said that.

They are both on video and in print saying it. Steve was actually talking (bemoaning) about the extents of his chops at the time. Neil was commenting on Steve's work after Freddy Gruber.

Stanton Moore's music is nothing like Steve Smith's fusion. They should not be compared on that level, nor is Stanton Moore's like bigband. Steve is pretty precise in emulating the right amount of swing feel that was in the music he was playing. One should not talk about Steve in terms of what he can't do. Steve is a master drummer, and I am quite sure there is nothing beyond his grasp. He didn't sound clinical at all with Victor Wooten, they jammed.

Stanton's deep grooves are not as busy or technical as Steve's fusion. But that's also the beauty of the two generes. Stanton mines the core of groove. Steve mines the core of chops. Both have a bit of a crossover points but are undeniably superb at what they do best. And no, I would not interchange them.

[Hercraft]

I agree. He's a phenomenal technician, he's got flawless time, a vast vocabulary and a set of big ears, but he manages to sound clinical and sterile every time I hear him. That being said, I love his "History of the US Beat" DVD and just ordered "Standing..." from Amazon. There's a wealth of ideas and concepts to learn from him, and from an entertainment and an intellectual perspective he's the 5#17, but artistically... not so much.

I second this.
Steve is an amazing clinic drummer, and a very good teacher and very good advicer too.
But I percive him very cold when I listen... and... I dont feel the same when I hear
Colaiuta playing fusion... for example.

[Toby_Jackson]

I'm very glad I stimulated some discussion here. Obviously my original post was very one-pointed and biting, but I had to come out and say it because I feel Smith misses something that I consider to be paramount to drumming as an art. When it all comes down, I feel there is one thing that a drummer is supposed to do above all other things, and that is to make the music feel good. To me, everything else should be subservient to this one tenant of drumming.

Now, some of you can sit back and say this is just an opinion, and demand of me videos displaying my other-worldy deep pocket, but the fact of the matter is good bandleaders hire drummers who make their music sound better and help connect it with their audience

And this somewhat relates back to why I hate most modern fusion or prog-rock - it *mostly* only appeals on an intellectual level, focusing very little on having an emotional or physical impact on it's audience, which to me nearly disqualifies it from being called art.

[drumbum1977]

I hope it is better than his clinics.

[Ian Ballard]

One important thing about Steve's videos, is that he definitely gives the histories of drumming that are sorely lacking in most drum teaching curricula, obviously because of time restraints. Even if Steve Smith's "swing" is lacking when compared to the incomparable Chick Webb, he might invite a young drummer to hear Mr. Webb, Big Sid Catlett, Max, Tony, Buddy... etc, etc.

I think it's sad that people have to bring a disparaging tone to the discussion of a master drummer who's passion is showing young drummers why we play drums the way we do today, and how it got there.

Without this knowledge, in my opinion, the art of drumming will not evolve any further. In order to see where we can go, we have to know where we've been and how we got here.

[paramac]

You are the only one on the planet who thinks so. That is so pathetically inaccurate it hurts my skull just to imagine such a possibility. The guy is 100% swing pulse. You must have been watching the Neil Peart dvd by mistake. Your opinion seems pointless to me, given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Omar Hakim was even blown away by Steve's swing and chops.

Smith doesn't just swing, he knows how to get in and out of the pocket in any time signature. He can add, bend or shape time to swing, groove or rock. He is one of the very few drummers that can explain every aspect of swing.

Saying he can't swing is like watching "dark knight" and saying "But he doesn't fight anyone in the movie...""


He ain't the only one, I agree with him.. He is not dissing Steve I think either and he or I aren't dissing you by voicing our opinions...With all due respect to Steve, he's a monster drummer and musician.. I am speaking more as a listener than a musician. As a musician, I have to give respect to a guy who can do a whole lot of stuff I can't but I don't feel his swing either..Either do quite a few pro Jazz drummers I know who can really swing.. If you check out guys like Ralph Peterson Jr, Winard Harper, Rodney Green, Bill Stewart, Al Foster and many more who are around today, these guys swing and in different ways.. I personally think that a video talking about the history of Jazz drummers should of been done by Ralph or Winard or even Kendrick Scott or Victor Jones.. Steve is an amazing Fusion drummer who's checked out the history for sure. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean has is going to have that sound/ vibe..He doesn't surround himself and or play with the really hard swinging purist kind of Jazz musicians.. Sure, those guys in his band are killer musicians but I wouldn't hire them on one of my straight ahead Jazz gigs and I am a nobody but I know what I like in a piano player and a Bass Player.. .I checked out a part of the video when he talks about having to play soft in a smaller club and then a little later it shows him playing pretty loud and over powering the band/ drowning them out. I know he has killer control and can play soft in the physical sense, but he doesn't make the decision to play soft or is aware of it and it is evident in the small part I saw...

[trkdrmr]

He ain't the only one, I agree with him.. He is not dissing Steve I think either and he or I aren't dissing you by voicing our opinions...With all due respect to Steve, he's a monster drummer and musician.. I am speaking more as a listener than a musician. As a musician, I have to give respect to a guy who can do a whole lot of stuff I can't but I don't feel his swing either..Either do quite a few pro Jazz drummers I know who can really swing.. If you check out guys like Ralph Peterson Jr, Winard Harper, Rodney Green, Bill Stewart, Al Foster and many more who are around today, these guys swing and in different ways.. I personally think that a video talking about the history of Jazz drummers should of been done by Ralph or Winard or even Kendrick Scott or Victor Jones.. Steve is an amazing Fusion drummer who's checked out the history for sure. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean has is going to have that sound/ vibe..He doesn't surround himself and or play with the really hard swinging purist kind of Jazz musicians.. Sure, those guys in his band are killer musicians but I wouldn't hire them on one of my straight ahead Jazz gigs and I am a nobody but I know what I like in a piano player and a Bass Player.. .I checked out a part of the video when he talks about having to play soft in a smaller club and then a little later it shows him playing pretty loud and over powering the band/ drowning them out. I know he has killer control and can play soft in the physical sense, but he doesn't make the decision to play soft or is aware of it and it is evident in the small part I saw...

Steve does swing, and he is not robotic and sterile. I will grant from what I have seen, that he hasn't demonstrated the same depth of swing as some other players. But he got too quickly and completely dismissed on that point.

Let's guage the level of swing (or to assume pocket)

On the robotic/cold side and occassionally middling: Neal Peart (but for good reason, it fits his music)

On the medium, but definate swing: Steve Smith

On the deep groove: Stanton Moore, Questlove, and the aformentioned group above.

I am not without room for debate here. When someone outright dismisses Steve it's exaggerating. Steve swings to a degree.

I am willing to bet that Steve can dig out more if he wants to. And the perception that he doesn't deeply swing doesn't hurt his dvd's. He is great at what he does. Maybe his next DVD will shock his critics by being called "History of the groove."

[Wavelength]

Steve does swing, and he is not robotic and sterile. I will grant from what I have seen, that he hasn't demonstrated the same depth of swing as some other players. But he got too quickly and completely dismissed on that point.

Let's guage the level of swing (or to assume pocket)

On the robotic/cold side and occassionally middling: Neal Peart (but for good reason, it fits his music)

On the medium, but definate swing: Steve Smith

On the deep groove: Stanton Moore, Questlove, and the aformentioned group above.

I am not without room for debate here. When someone outright dismisses Steve it's exaggerating. Steve swings to a degree.

I am willing to bet that Steve can dig out more if he wants to. And the perception that he doesn't deeply swing doesn't hurt his dvd's. He is great at what he does. Maybe his next DVD will shock his critics by being called "History of the groove."

I agree, and I love him for what he is and how he plays. "Clinical" and "not swinging" are coarse exaggarations, but within the lineage of jazz masters he isn't the swingiest of the bunch. He fits very nicely within the fusion genre, which coincidentally tends to feel more sterile and intellectualised than the more traditional forms of jazz music.

In the end it all boils down to taste and context. When I'm listening to jazz, I like to see and hear some good slop and emotionally driven playing. Steve is always in full control no matter how high he's flying, and while I can hear him swing, I can't feel him swing.

[Toby_Jackson]

When someone outright dismisses Steve it's exaggerating.

I'll grant you this, however exaggeration has it's uses. I wanted to see people's thoughts on this, and while hamfisted, I believe my questionable post has produced more responses than a simple question would have.

And to Wavelength - really digging your responses here (and elsewhere, right on).

[aydee]

.... while I can hear him swing, I can't feel him swing.

Thats the core of the point.

Sometimes I think if some drummers are adept at too many different styles, they tend to become generalists.. as opposed to specialists? Colauita, Gadd, Bissonnette, Marotta etc.. some of the more famous generalists, who are great drummers by any stretch of definition and in many styles, arent the guys you would name as the ultimate in any specific genre..

Do you lose 'something' if your musical focus is too broad, is a question I ask myself. Also another differentiation between the swingers & the SWINGERS for me if when a musician is more focused on the instrument than the music.

I enjoy Steve Smith and more so since he'd gotten into the Eastern rhythmic thing, but I think he is also one of those who is guilty of being too 'drum concious'.

Mah 2 cents...

[Deltadrummer]

Thats the core of the point.

Sometimes I think if some drummers are adept at too many different styles, they tend to become generalists.. as opposed to specialists? Colauita, Gadd, Bissonnette, Marotta etc.. some of the more famous generalists, who are great drummers by any stretch of definition and in many styles, arent the guys you would name as the ultimate in any specific genre..

Do you lose 'something' if your musical focus is too broad, is a question I ask myself. Also another differentiation between the swingers & the SWINGERS for me if when a musician is more focused on the instrument than the music.

I enjoy Steve Smith and more so since he'd gotten into the Eastern rhythmic thing, but I think he is also one of those who is guilty of being too 'drum concious'.

Mah 2 cents...

Both Dennis and Steve talked about this last week at their clinics. (Seeing Dennis Chambers and Steve Smith in clinic in the same week sounds like a dream come true. )

Dennis has played with P-Funk Scofield, McLaughlin and now Santana; but most of his work has been in sound-tracking. He said that it was necessary to know all style in order to make a living at drumming, a story we hear all the time.

Steve said he knew nothing about rock drumming when he joined Journey, and just listened to the guys in the group. A friend of mine was telling me that Steve Perry was a drummer and helped Steve Smith immensely during those days. On much of the stuff that Steve plays, I don't think there is a need to swing. But I would agree that sometimes his technical prowess gets in the way of the music. It's an interesting question, no matter how much you watch what Art Blakey is doing, is there always something that transcends technique, and we all know the answer.

[trkdrmr]

Both Dennis and Steve talked about this last week at their clinics. (Seeing Dennis Chambers and Steve Smith in clinic in the same week sounds like a dream come true. )

Dennis has played with P-Funk Scofield, McLaughlin and now Santana; but most of his work has been in sound-tracking. He said that it was necessary to know all style in order to make a living at drumming, a story we hear all the time.

Steve said he knew nothing about rock drumming when he joined Journey, and just listened to the guys in the group. A friend of mine was telling me that Steve Perry was a drummer and helped Steve Smith immensely during those days. On much of the must that Steve plays, I don't think there is a need to swing. But I would agree that sometimes his technical prowess gets in the way of the music. It's an interesting question, no matter how much you watch what Art Blakey is doing, is there always something that transcends technique, and we all know the answer.

I like the direction of this thread now. It's more of a consensus and less on the polar regions of opinion.

Note 1: I actually read in one forum (maybe this one) someone said "Dennis Chambers can't groove" ...I think that's even more extreme to say that. Dennis is a powerful force of groove. When it comes to groove or swing with Dennis, the word "can't" doesn't exist.

Note 2: Swing, in the context I understand it here, is simply working within the pocket of time , delivering the notes with a certain feel vs mathematical accuracy. There is an "on time but not on time" sense, and this is usually accomplished with not so many notes played, save for the Elvin style of ghost notes around quarter notes.

Note 3: I also caution to be fair: when a drummer is as capable of as many thing's as Steve, to place limits on him from a forumite level is dangerously close to speculation. I cannot definitively say how deep Steve is capable of playing on a swing level. But herein lies (as mentioned) the debate between a technical player (Steve's fusion style) and a Feel player that really swings (Elvin, Art, etc). There is a tendency in the forum world to hold technical players (or technical playing) in contempt as a liability to the swing feel...because of the notes and voices being played tends to be much busier sounding than the traditional 4-pc groove. The perception of overplaying perhaps?

What level does Dave Weckl fit in? perhaps slightly "swingier" than Steve?

[zbdc]

This thread is very interesting. I think it's getting to the idea that the more technical you become, the less musical you become. In my opinion this is true to an extent. If all you worry about is technicality, chops, etc.- yeah, you're gonna lose musicality and groove. I believe that as a drummer, it's all about playing for the music. In my view, the only types of music that really require chops to play it are fusion, prog rock/metal, and jazz- to a point. Jazz is totally different because to "play the music" in jazz you gotta swing, but you cannot play jazz without chops, either (that's one of the many reasons I love jazz).

But yeah, it seems that most drummers that play for the music don't throw a lot of the technical stuff in there, and vice versa. Is it possible to...well..."show off" insane chops and the grooviest groove at the same time? This I don't know.

And to the post above me, I think Smith has much more groove/swing than Weckl.

[Toby_Jackson]

Is it possible to...well..."show off" insane chops and the grooviest groove at the same time?

Listen to Vinnie - we all know his chops are unbelievable, and there's a reason he gets hired to play dozens of super-pop records year in and year out.

[trkdrmr]

if I had to vote for one single drummer on the planet that can play any genre convincingly, and do so beyond reproach, it's Vinnie. What do you say about a guy that goes from a successful Buddy Rich memorial concert, to Sting, to a Steve Gadd/Armand Zildjian tribute and plays heavy metal?

I think as a drummer, Vinnie has it all.

[slingerland755]

I agree, and I love him for what he is and how he plays. "Clinical" and "not swinging" are coarse exaggarations, but within the lineage of jazz masters he isn't the swingiest of the bunch. He fits very nicely within the fusion genre, which coincidentally tends to feel more sterile and intellectualised than the more traditional forms of jazz music.

In the end it all boils down to taste and context. When I'm listening to jazz, I like to see and hear some good slop and emotionally driven playing. Steve is always in full control no matter how high he's flying, and while I can hear him swing, I can't feel him swing.

Very cerebral Wave........right on the money!

[FunkyJazzer]

I agree, and I love him for what he is and how he plays. "Clinical" and "not swinging" are coarse exaggarations, but within the lineage of jazz masters he isn't the swingiest of the bunch. He fits very nicely within the fusion genre, which coincidentally tends to feel more sterile and intellectualised than the more traditional forms of jazz music.

In the end it all boils down to taste and context. When I'm listening to jazz, I like to see and hear some good slop and emotionally driven playing. Steve is always in full control no matter how high he's flying, and while I can hear him swing, I can't feel him swing.


Yes. I love Wavelength.

Still, I feel in no position to criticise any drummer in any shape or form who does even the smallest thing better than me in the smallest way. That's just the way I am. He can still swing like an arsehole and he has an encyclopaedic knowledge that we can all learn from. I bet his new DVD is bangin'.

[Wavelength]

Still, I feel in no position to criticise any drummer in any shape or form who does even the smallest thing better than me in the smallest way. That's just the way I am.

Everyone has the right to criticise anyone (except in China and North Korea, maybe), and receiving and giving positive criticism is an essential part of growing as a human being. Heck, I wish my playing received more constructive criticism!

Everyone's entitled to his own opinion, and unless you're being a total jerk about it, voicing it out will bring something good to the discussion.

[Hercraft]

But yeah, it seems that most drummers that play for the music don't throw a lot of the technical stuff in there, and vice versa. Is it possible to...well..."show off" insane chops and the grooviest groove at the same time? This I don't know.

And to the post above me, I think Smith has much more groove/swing than Weckl.

LIke Toby_Jackson and trkdrmr said, I think Vinni is the answer for your questions.

In the personal level I think Weckl has much more groove/swing than Smith.

I also want to point how important is that Steve Smith brings all the information about the greats of swing and the historical background of the beginning of the drums, and doesnt matter if he swings more or less, his work is very important.... BUT I think some of us
are not convinced with the feel/groove of Steve Smith.... my two cents, sorry my english.

[Deltadrummer]

I've seen perform Steve Smith several times over the years, and he is always enjoyable to see. When I saw him several years back after a Jazz Legacy concert, I actually suggested he put out a DVD on this, outlining the history of some of these styles and drummers. It is important work. It is interesting to get insight that others may have into some of these players, now that jazz has 100 years of history behind it.

I think that technique often gets a bad rep, and you hear this chops vs. feel argument. Technique includes everything you do on the kit,;and to my ears drummers who don't spend time on technique seem coarse and sloppy.

One of the things that Steve has talked about for years is finding a balance between performing, study and practice. Of course performing is the most important part of that triad. It is most interesting when the performers have spent some time in the practice room thinking about what they are doing.

[FunkyJazzer]

I think that technique often gets a bad rep, and you hear this chops vs. feel argument. Technique includes everything you do on the kit,;and to my ears drummers who don't spend time on technique seem coarse and sloppy.

One of the things that Steve has talked about for years is finding a balance between performing, study and practice. Of course performing is the most important part of that triad. It is most interesting when the performers have spent some time in the practice room thinking about what they are doing.


I totally agree. I spend a fair amount of time working on my technique, purely because it allows me to physically manifest the MUSICAL ideas in my head. I don't agree with sacrificing feel and music for chops though. But an equal amount of practice on both things is not over the top I don't think. Anyway, this is drifting off the topic of Steve Smith's awesome new DVD...

[Ian Ballard]

I totally agree. I spend a fair amount of time working on my technique, purely because it allows me to physically manifest the MUSICAL ideas in my head. I don't agree with sacrificing feel and music for chops though. But an equal amount of practice on both things is not over the top I don't think. Anyway, this is drifting off the topic of Steve Smith's awesome new DVD...

Yeah. There is a Steve Smith thread dealing with him as a drummer.

If you guys want to go on and on about "how good/bad Steve Smith's feel is", please go there.

[Deltadrummer]

I totally agree. I spend a fair amount of time working on my technique, purely because it allows me to physically manifest the MUSICAL ideas in my head. I don't agree with sacrificing feel and music for chops though. But an equal amount of practice on both things is not over the top I don't think. Anyway, this is drifting off the topic of Steve Smith's awesome new DVD...

Getting back to the DVD. I really like that he chose John Riley for the DVD. John was a student of Joe Morello and comes from a Big Band and small ensemble background. Steve was a student of Alan Dawson and later Freddie Gruber and has more of a fusion background. You get a meeting of two different schools of jazz studies.

Steve also puts in a nod to Jim Chapin who studied with Moeller and taught Gene Krupa at one point. You hear a lot of empty discussion about feel v. technique or wrist v. rebound or Dawson v. Chapin; but when it comes down to it, the integration of all these ideas without the rejection of some for personal gain or matters of self-importance is what is going to give you the greatest field for being a jazz drummer in my view.

[Ekim]

Ordered mine! It cannot get here fast enough for my tastes!

[sergiozis]

All of great musicians are great performers with great level techniques. Just remember classics like Mozart or Bach.