Moeller vs Open/Close...

[h3r3tic]

A friend of mine doesn't have internet at his so he asked me if I could post this question for him so taht he could se for his self the answers of you guys on this forum...

So his question is simple... which technique is better for the drumset? Moeller or Open/Close? that includes in reaching cymbals...

[Wavelength]

Don't worry about specialist techniques. Learn the basic wrist strokes (full, down, tap and up stroke) and use them everywhere. Then learn the finger technique in the thumbs-up position. Work on discovering the stick's rebound and use it to the fullest. Try to move your hands and arms in a relaxed manner. Lead the sticks with your wrists, and lead your wrists with your forearms. You'll develop a natural whipping motion which will help moving around the kit.

The Moeller technique is used for playing two-height passages smoothly. Since you use some forearm to perform it, it works well for moving quickly from one part of the kit to another. The open/close is a small muscle technique which is used for powerful double strokes, and doesn't really affect your facility moving around the kit.

All of these techniques are highly useful, the first described being the most important.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Don't worry about specialist techniques. Learn the basic wrist strokes (full, down, tap and up stroke) and use them everywhere. Then learn the finger technique in the thumbs-up position. Work on discovering the stick's rebound and use it to the fullest. Try to move your hands and arms in a relaxed manner. Lead the sticks with your wrists, and lead your wrists with your forearms. You'll develop a natural whipping motion which will help moving around the kit.

The Moeller technique is used for playing two-height passages smoothly. Since you use some forearm to perform it, it works well for moving quickly from one part of the kit to another. The open/close is a small muscle technique which is used for powerful double strokes, and doesn't really affect your facility moving around the kit.

All of these techniques are highly useful, the first described being the most important.


I agree 100%. You have to realize that more than 80% of the strokes that you make on the kit are simple wrist strokes. THAT is the meat of hand technique.

Here's an example: Play a BASIC fill. (Let's say 4 notes per drum for 4 beats). If you look at your hands, you will see that the motion required for this is the wrist stroke NOT push/pull or open/close or any other "2 for 1" technique.

What Wavelength means when he refers to 2-height passages is ACCENTS. (Have u read Jeff Queen's book, Wavelength?)

The Moeller pull-out is great for accents around the kit. That is about the other 20% of the strokes made on the kit.

If you have those 2 down, you're better than 99% of the other guys out there.

I would also like to take the time to acknowledge Wavelength. He knows what he's talking about and he's always willing to share.

You have to realize the following: Despite all the recent talk about "2 for 1" techniques, the highest speeds are still attained by wrist strokes. Look at Mangini and also at the new crop of young WFD champs. No Moeller, no open/close, just balls.

[Joe P]

What does attaining the highest speed have to do with anything? If you want to play musically on the drumset, you have to have dynamics, and the moeller technique is all about dynamics. So, by all means, learn to use it on the drumset. Heck, learn all the techniques. Then, you can apply them to different situations.

[SEVNT7]

What does attaining the highest speed have to do with anything? If you want to play musically on the drumset, you have to have dynamics, and the moeller technique is all about dynamics. So, by all means, learn to use it on the drumset. Heck, learn all the techniques. Then, you can apply them to different situations.
Thanks Joe P. ........T

[Jeff Almeyda]

What does attaining the highest speed have to do with anything? If you want to play musically on the drumset, you have to have dynamics, and the moeller technique is all about dynamics. So, by all means, learn to use it on the drumset. Heck, learn all the techniques. Then, you can apply them to different situations.

We are talking about a beginner here who needs to be pointed in the right direction. By prioritizing the tasks ahead of him he can make better progress than if he just "learned everything". A beginner needs to get better at a small number of things otherwise you have somebody who can halfway do about 30 different drum techniques yet still can't play a roll at 200 BPM. (and btw, if you can't play a roll at 200 for at least 30 seconds you have no chops, there I said it.)

I didn't say not to use Moeller, as a matter of fact, I told him to. So what's your point? That speed isn't everything? Wow, you sure had an original idea there. In all my 30 years of drumming, I have never heard that before. Give me a break.

Having a reserve of speed is necessary for drummer to sound smooth when performing so it is a crucial factor in hand development. Is it the ONLY thing, no, but who said it was? Not me.

Also, Moeller is about accents not dynamics. Moeller produces 2 distinct sounds which work very well for accents. Actual dynamic shifts such as a crescendo cannot be done with Moeller as they can with formal wrist motion. The Moeller stroke is also limited in that you can't play more than one accent in a row with a hand.

My (and Wavelength's) original points still apply: Learn and develop facility with the basic wrist strokes before attempting to learn the specialized hand technques.

[Raymond Bloom]

Moeller is one of the very basic techniques, more or less, everyone's using Moeller!

What people don't understand is that:
1) Moeller is an accent system, it's ONLY for accents, if you got the Moeller technique down you'll be able to play any kind of accented patterns with minimal effort
2) basically, Moeller technique consists of one whip, how much rebounds you get out of it depends on you
3) Full Moeller whip is absolutely the most powerful stroke ever!

I'd say, for any kind of accented pattern Moeller technique is essential
I wouldn't want to agree with Jeff that Moeller technique is limited about how much accents can you get out of one whip, for example: r R R r. To exectut this, you would want to combine a pull-out and a regular Moeller whip with one accent and one rebound, there are certain hybrids that allow you to get as many accents you need, but YES regular Moeller whip is limited in this thing


Basically, I look at push-pull as a speed technique, it uses small muscle mass (fingers + a bit of wrist) so you will NEVER gain power with it and also, this technique is kind of similar to heel-toe if talking about the sound, you will never get all the strokes perfectly equal, all the upstrokes will sound a bit different from the down strokes

[sssssssss]

As far as sheer speed goes, for me the open-close works significantly better. But fot my overall playing, the Moeller technique is much more appliable, because it works at any dynamic level. However, for me, mastering the open-close has fitted drumsticks in my hands much better than they were staying before that. What I mean is, mastering the open-close will help your technique (and not just your one-hand speed).
And also, when playing 8ths on the hi-hat or ride or whatever, thinking about the motion of the open-close (and I say "thinking about..." because it won't be 100% OC) can get you to play very comfortably and dynamically, especially at faster tempos.
On the other hand, for types of music like death metal for instance, if you want to play really solid and clear blast beats (Morbid Angel, Pete Sandoval style, or Derek Roddy stuff), the Moeller, from my experience, would tend to work better. When playing more than 8 beats per second with one hand (which many call the ideal one hand speed), which not many people do (relaxed I mean, with good technique and no tendonitis:D), like Jojo Mayer does, definitely the open-close looks like the only option for me.

[Wavelength]

I'd say, for any kind of accented pattern Moeller technique is essential.

I wouldn't say it's essential, since upstrokes and downstrokes can be performed with formal wrist motions to a fairly high degree, but yes, the Moeller motion makes these a lot more fluid and relaxed. I think it's best to first learn the formal strokes, then the Moeller. Because the wrist strokes are more straight forward, the concept of "prepping" a stroke is a bit easier to understand and internalise -- at least that's how I learned it, and Moeller came very naturally after working on the formal motions.

[JoePorter]

Here is my opinion.

Two main types of motion = gladstone and moeller. Pushpull is Advanced Gladstone. Gladstone technique is based upon rebound, Moeller uses gladstones concepts in the stroke as well.

The goal is to have 0 tension and be able to play all dynamics from ppp to fff. Gladstone is based upon 1 motion. The downstroke, because of the rebound of a drum like a snare or a cymbal the stick will come back naturally. There are two ways of doing this, 1. With your wrist mostly, 2.With your fingers, when you do finger technique make sure you're fingers are always touching the stick.

(On very low tension surfaces like some floor toms, There is not enough rebound for a proper gladstone stroke, therefor you have to assist it)

Push Pull - Most usefull for Even Double Strokes. Using push pull properly for double strokes will illiminate relying heavily on the rebound for the second stroke, hense getting even doubles. When you practice this Accent the second stroke r R l L , Until you get high speeds the accent will disappear but this will help get the doubles sounding more even. Pushpull can be used for fast patterns in some situations like quick quad's or certain cymbal rhythms. When you use pushpull make sure you're fingers never leave the stick, for maximum speed and control.


Moeller - What do beats need to become grooves? Dynamic levels of everything you are hitting has to be grooving, What makes grooves in many cases Accents. Think about playing Displaced funk with a straight hi-hat(hitting all hi-hats hits equally). Than try to play it Shoulder Tip Shoulder Tip(Moeller), It grooves.

Any rhythm with accents, moeller is key to mastering these. Look at Jim Chapins Advanced techniques book, the comping hand, even with the bass drum eventually Is slamming down these awesome accented patterns. Without moeller, you cant get them up to speed.

[altdrumz]

Im my experience, when I studied with Chapin at Long Island Drum Studio some 20 years ago, Moeller opened up to me a more fluid and relaxed way of playing. Certainly more power, and speed. In 20 years of using it, I believe it has sustained my power and speed, since I get kudos all the time after gigs that I play better than people half my age
(I'm 50 - and play in 3 bands, plus sub. )

Just my opinion...

Then again, one of the most amazing drummers I have witnessed would have been Marvin Dahlgren in 1978, his book "accent on Accent" was a pivotal study for me to.

[Deltadrummer]

Here is my opinion.

Two main types of motion = gladstone and moeller. Pushpull is Advanced Gladstone. Gladstone technique is based upon rebound, Moeller uses gladstones concepts in the stroke as well.

The goal is to have 0 tension and be able to play all dynamics from ppp to fff. Gladstone is based upon 1 motion. The downstroke, because of the rebound of a drum like a snare or a cymbal the stick will come back naturally. There are two ways of doing this, 1. With your wrist mostly, 2.With your fingers, when you do finger technique make sure you're fingers are always touching the stick.

(On very low tension surfaces like some floor toms, There is not enough rebound for a proper gladstone stroke, therefor you have to assist it)

Push Pull - Most usefull for Even Double Strokes. Using push pull properly for double strokes will illiminate relying heavily on the rebound for the second stroke, hense getting even doubles. When you practice this Accent the second stroke r R l L , Until you get high speeds the accent will disappear but this will help get the doubles sounding more even. Pushpull can be used for fast patterns in some situations like quick quad's or certain cymbal rhythms. When you use pushpull make sure you're fingers never leave the stick, for maximum speed and control.


Moeller - What do beats need to become grooves? Dynamic levels of everything you are hitting has to be grooving, What makes grooves in many cases Accents. Think about playing Displaced funk with a straight hi-hat(hitting all hi-hats hits equally). Than try to play it Shoulder Tip Shoulder Tip (Moeller), It grooves.

Any rhythm with accents, Moeller is key to mastering these. Look at Jim Chapin's Advanced techniques book, the comping hand, even with the bass drum eventually Is slamming down these awesome accented patterns. Without Moeller, you cant get them up to speed.

I would say that is basically it in a nutshell.:)