Matched grip in jazz

[babliku]

Does anyone know of any jazz drummers who play matched grip? I realize all the jazz drummers I know play traditional. Is it weird to play jazz matched? I don't wanna have to learn a new grip for a new genre.

[Mr. Pasquini]

My drum teacher had used Traditional for Jazz for the longest time, but he just recently begun using matched so he wouldn't have to go back and forth as much. He finds that he plays just as well matched as he did traditional.

Not a necessity, just a norm.

[h3r3tic]

I don't play jazz, but I think that it's possible to play anykind of musicle style with either grip...

For example, I thought that traditional grip wasn't the best for rock/metal but since the day that I saw some video of Virgil DonatiI realized that grip shouldn't be an issue, I think that none is better than the other one... It's just a tool. Just use the one that makes you feel more confortable

I used to be blinded by the choice whether than to play macthed or trad but then I realized how much time that I wasted during this indecision instead of improving my drumming skills with the grip I feel most confortable, which is more confortable for me of course ;)

So in conclusion I say choose the grip you feel more confortable!

[Diaz]

I actually switch off for drumset and wahtnot. I've found that coming to Uconn, I had to learn traditional grip for drumline, so why not keep using it for jazz music? I still stick with matched for rock though, I feel more comfortable and able to use a lot more power with matched.

It's all up to you, theres a kid here who plays matched jazz, I did it in high school - it's not gonna make you less of a player.

[Porker69]

When I was at the Berklee summer thing I noticed the majority of players used matched grip and it obviously wont detract from your playing, just look at Ari Hoenig. My teacher plays trad for jazz and matched for rock and switches between the two for other styles, but he said he gets a certain feeling from trad grip that he likes for jazz. I play trad all the time because that's how I started playing years ago, and I don't really like the feel of matched.

Just do what you are comfortable with.

[flugadaflum]

Ari Hoenig plays matched. I would argue he is one of the greatest jazz players to have ever lived. He's IS the state of the art when it comes to jazz nowadays.

Bill Stewart plays matched. I would also argue he is also one of the best.

[jayp]

I play matched albout 80% of the time I play, and I mostly play Jazz but I do however randomly sometimes like to play trad just for the feel and the extra practice, really it depends on my mood and what I'm playin.

But I always do make time to practice both extensively.

[Drummer Karl]

Hi,

It`s no rule for sure. Nobody says that every Jazz drummer has to play with traditional grip. There are so many drummers playing with matched...also in Jazz.
I discovered traditional grip when I watched some videos...so I tried it, learned some things about it I should take care of, some history...and love it. I`m mostly into Jazz music but in the last time I mostly use a matched grip kind of thing. Though I use it when I need it and when I feel it fits and works with the music. Lately that`s the case very often.

For example when practicing comping or doing excercices in general I use traditional grip. I can do bigger movements, they are "rounder".
Then there is this kind of matched grip...I use it when I need more sensibility. It`s timpani-like, a bit more stiff. I also feel that the drums sound and feel different with the matched grip I use/find comfortable, finer...hard to describe.

It`s no need, no rule. I think both grips, matched and traditional get comfortable with the time but (at least for me) it`s a matter of need.
So I would deal with traditional grip, too. It shows you another way, a traditional way. It`ll show you new dorrs I´m sure.
It`s like a tool box Mr. Anderson. ;-)

Karl

[PQleyR]

This might be a bit off-topic, but I found an article the other day that pointed out that matched grip was what people used to use before they had to play marching snare, and then the marching snare technique which was developed so people could play side-slung snare drums while marching ended up being carried over into the early jazz drummers. So strictly speaking matched is the traditional grip, while traditional is a specialized grip for a particular purpose. Interesting, no? The person who wrote it felt that matched was the better one to learn because then you wouldn't have to learn new skills if you wanted to play timbales or timpani, or other percussion. Also that it was the more natural grip, because that's how you hold sticks when you pick them up for the first time.

[Class A Drummer]

My teacher is a great jazz drummer but does not know how to play traditional. I only learned it because i thought it looked cool. But i do play jazz in traditional 95% of the time just because for some reason, i feel more jazzy when i play it haha. But i feel its easier to play sensitivley in traditional, but when i need to be real loud i go to matched.

[foursticks]

I think there is a slight in difference in the tone you produce from either grip, traditional having a more delicate and warmer tone whilst matched more aggresive, but frankly whatever grip does the job is more than good enough and its mainlydown to how you personally play the stroke that produces the tone.

However, it is good practise to learn both grips - more tools for different jobs.

[Class A Drummer]

I think there is a slight in difference in the tone you produce from either grip, traditional having a more delicate and warmer tone whilst matched more aggresive, but frankly whatever grip does the job is more than good enough and its mainlydown to how you personally play the stroke that produces the tone.

However, it is good practise to learn both grips - more tools for different jobs.

As i remember from the big Tony Williams Clinic video, it is a huge tool to have both grips because you play differently with each. He said something about how because your hands are using different grips, your brain thinks different, thus changing your style even the slightest.

[foursticks]

Yes - he also said that he believes every drummer should learn traditional grip and those who refuse to learn it as they say that matched grip tends to be easier to play louder, for rock, etc - are cop outs.
Bold statements, but frankly he had the authority to say that and there is truth in it.

Whilst, we're on the topic of Tony - Alan Dawson apparently said one of the things about Tony when he was learning was that he had no techinque. Looks like practise bloody well payed off.

[cnw60]

Bruford - not known as much for being a jazz drummer, but his matched grip technique has all of the subtlety and nuance required for playing jazz.

Cobham - again - more known as a fusion drummer, but whatever..???

[caprisun3484]

look at Bill Stewart with John Scofield and Larry Goldings, amazing. He uses matched grip

[Jazz]

-Jack Dejohnette is a another. He switched from trad. to match.

It's debatable whether you can call Ari Hoenig's grip matched :D :D :D It's in a league of its own

[broken_symlink]

what about people who play left handed, i've always wondered am i supposed to play traditional with my right hand or just stick with matched grip all the time on set, or setup my set with a ride on the right side and play open handed on the hi hat, (might be interesting to try this).

[maddrummr]

My Band director recommends trad because he doesn't like the sound of a floppy, loud left hand (in reference to the drummers in our school that slam our rock beats 24/7) I personally proved to him that I could control my left hand much better while playing matched rather than trad. Therefore i stuck with matched grip in my jazz class.

Of course theres that random time that i will try it during class for kicks and giggles. It usually doesn't go to well so i will practice it a bit more.

[burnthehero]

I don't play jazz, but I've recently made the switch from matched to traditional. granted I never truly learned proper technique, but traditional already feels more natural than matched grip ever did. the only thing I miss about matched grip is the symmetry around the kit.

[Wavelength]

The traditional grip is great if you want more nuance possibilities from your snare drum, since it facilitates the use of different angles of approach. The matched grip can be just as dynamic and sensitive, but it's more difficult and awkward to change the stick's angle in order to get different timbres from just one point on the head. It's a very subtle thing, but subtle things do tend to add up...

[tak22thegoat]

The traditional grip is great if you want more nuance possibilities from your snare drum, since it facilitates the use of different angles of approach. The matched grip can be just as dynamic and sensitive, but it's more difficult and awkward to change the stick's angle in order to get different timbres from just one point on the head. It's a very subtle thing, but subtle things do tend to add up...

Very true.
I use traditional grip for quite jazz, (trios) but when I play big band, I switch between both.

With traditional grip, it's easy to adjust volume since you only have to raise the height of the hand to get more volume. Also, with traditional grip, it's easy to hit the rim and then hit ghost notes. (Watch Vic Firth lessons Ndge chancler) Also, if you angle your sticks to around 45*(Unless you have ball tip, you get a consistent sound), you get a more jazzy sound.

[babliku]

The traditional grip is great if you want more nuance possibilities from your snare drum, since it facilitates the use of different angles of approach. The matched grip can be just as dynamic and sensitive, but it's more difficult and awkward to change the stick's angle in order to get different timbres from just one point on the head. It's a very subtle thing, but subtle things do tend to add up...

Yeah I was watching Dave Weckl on the Vic Firth podcast and that's pretty much exactly what he said. The problem is that I've never noticed this nuance thing, so I think I'm too low level to worry about such issues haha.

[thiscocks]

Omar Hakim uses match

[brittc89]

Eric Harland and Ari Hoenig use matched.

[Eric]

I'm very much in the "use both grips" camp. When I was younger, I agonized briefly over which grip to use, because I was worried that I couldn't develop my speed to it's fullest if I played two different grips. Eventually, I realized I would come up with different ideas with each grip, and having more musical options is ALWAYS more important than speed.

[fat in the middle]

The traditional grip is great if you want more nuance possibilities from your snare drum, since it facilitates the use of different angles of approach. The matched grip can be just as dynamic and sensitive, but it's more difficult and awkward to change the stick's angle in order to get different timbres from just one point on the head. It's a very subtle thing, but subtle things do tend to add up...

I think this is a great point, I found when I changed over to trad from matched, it gave me an incredible amount of options for different sounds. It did take a good couple years. The access to the hihat is also better for drags etc..I also feel with the crash -ride on the left positioned well, the same applies to wavelengths point.

[Drummer Karl]

look at Bill Stewart with John Scofield and Larry Goldings, amazing. He uses matched grip

Yes, agreed. Amazing for sure...and he gave me the idea (besides Ari) to try this grip in Jazz music. I tried to hold the stick like him because it looked interesting to me and seems to give more sensibility...it works so well, love it.
Though his personal way of holding the stick doesn`t look too plausible at first but in the end it works and feels great in my opinion.

Karl

[abe]

Yes, agreed. Amazing for sure...and he gave me the idea (besides Ari) to try this grip in Jazz music. I tried to hold the stick like him because it looked interesting to me and seems to give more sensibility...it works so well, love it.
Though his personal way of holding the stick doesn`t look too plausible at first but in the end it works and feels great in my opinion.

Karl

I watched some of his performance... I watched few clip with Bill Stewart:

1) I'm totatly amazed. He is fantastic drummer

2)I'm ashamed for not nowing him till now.

[BringoDingo]

"but traditional already feels more natural than matched grip ever did"


That's a strange statement, since traditional came about only because of the harnesses of the drummers during the civil war era. If you give your sticks to a child, they will hold the sticks matched, not traditional.

[fat in the middle]

"but traditional already feels more natural than matched grip ever did"


That's a strange statement, since traditional came about only because of the harnesses of the drummers during the civil war era. If you give your sticks to a child, they will hold the sticks matched, not traditional.

true..but the kids may also hold them like clubs, and use thier arms to bang out [unlike jazz so much] Sometimes adapting [harnesses during the cival war] is the mother of invention....?!

[BringoDingo]

"Sometimes adapting [harnesses during the cival war] is the mother of invention....?!"


I like that sentence.

[BringoDingo]

in response to another poster's comments about my first comment here (but his comments are in another thread) - he paraphrases that I say "even babies know to hold the sticks matched". when my nieces and nephews come over (ages 8-11) they pick up the sticks in a matched position...and then proceed to drive everyone but me nuts. Yeah! hit those drums!

they don't pick them up and play traditional because they haven't been taught to hold them any other way. I'm not saying traditional is bad. I was just arguing the semantics of the word "natural" I guess. Perhaps I should have elaborated a little more in my inital post to avoid confusion and confrontation. my internal dialogue's tone is almost always friendly and harmless.

[tomk]

Brian Blade is another one. He switches.

[BringoDingo]

Greg Hutchinson did too I noticed when he came to my school...many many moons ago.

[sssssssss]

Actually most of them do, at least at a certain point. I've seen Dave Weckl switch to matched grip many times, Steve Smith also... Dennis Chambers for instance plays matched grip full time and it goes the same for Billy Cobham.
Some say there's no difference between the two. The explanation that I found most relevant concerning the difference was Steve Smith's - basically he was saying traditional grip allows for more delicate playing, as most of the hand's weight is under the stick, generating less pressure to the head, less impact. But that same feeling and sound can be achieved by matched French grip, where the hand doesn't stay on top of the stick either, the way it would in the German matched grip (which would be more useful for heavier hits like accents etc.). Weckl said the difference for him is the feeling - when he's playing traditional, he feels like he's hugging the instrument, like a contrabass or cello. Matched has a more agressive feeling for Weckl, which translates into his sound as well - he also usually plays with the butt-end part of the stick in the left hand when using matched.
Basically you can play either one, it's just an emotional decision. Technically, what's to be kept in mind is you'll find ghost notes maybe a bit easier to play in traditional and hard hits not quite as full sounding.
And also, traditional is an excellent grip to experiment in order to get the right feeling concerning the balance point of the stick. For me, it's been crucial in that.

[Deltadrummer]

There are several drummers who swear on traditional because of the feel, including Weckle. But honestly, I can't see the big deal. I remember at a clinic, Tommy Lang saying that he wished he had never learned the god forsaken thing. Weckle said that when you play traditional, the tip of the stick is not fully on the snare head, which is nice for ghost notes. But in matched you can just lift the stick, or you can turn the stick into French grip, like you said, to get a lighter feel. I think matched just offers you more options, unless you just feel more natural playing traditional.

[aydee]

Just curious... So how come more jazzers didnt play matched?

Is it because the music demanded more left handed snare ghost notes, less down beats, and relied more on the right handed ride cymbal?

Trad is so synonimous with jazz, just wondering how it became so?I mean I know the history of the grip, but why did players not experiment more?

[foursticks]

Just curious... So how come more jazzers didnt play matched?

Is it because the music demanded more left handed snare ghost notes, less down beats, and relied more on the right handed ride cymbal?

Trad is so synonimous with jazz, just wondering how it became so?I mean I know the history of the grip, but why did players not experiment more?

It's easier to play softer with traditional as you have the weight of the hand UNDER the stick not on top allowing easier control. Also you can achieve different tones out of the snare with traditional due to difference in the angle. In addition the non symetry of it makes sense in jazz, especially in comping since your left hand is playing differently to the right.

What you said sounds about right too. I s'pose most jazz drummers came from marching since jazz was developed from swinging the straight feel of marching - so I pressume they stuck with that grip. Also like you said, the music is more about the right hand laying it down and the left hand having that finese with the occasional accent of the offbeat, so it makes more sense with trad (as mentioned above).

Hope this helps.

[cnw60]

Just curious... So how come more jazzers didnt play matched?


just a guess - but I would think it's because jazz is more firmly rooted in the traditional style of playing. The early jazz drummers would have learned to play that way because that was considered the correct and proper way to hold the sticks back then. Since then - we copy and mimic the greats who went before us, so if you want to play like Papa Jo, Max, Buddy, Elvin, etc.,then you start by watching and copying exactly what they do.

But I do think that trad guys have always switched back and forth at least a little bit. Just flipping the stick over for cross sticking or playing matched grip with the butt end of the stick to get more power is something that you see everybody do at some point. (actually - the cross sticking example is the ONE time that I really don't like matched grip because you either have to do it with the tip end of the stick (which is weak), or you have to keep flipping the stick around (which is a PITA compared to doing it in trad grip)).

[Deltadrummer]

Just curious... So how come more jazzers didnt play matched?

Is it because the music demanded more left handed snare ghost notes, less down beats, and relied more on the right handed ride cymbal?

Trad is so synonimous with jazz, just wondering how it became so?I mean I know the history of the grip, but why did players not experiment more?


It is all because drumming is a matter of like and death. Well, we all know that anyway.

The story as conveyed by Scott Johnson is that during the Civil War military drummers developed the traditional grip so the they could tie the snare around one leg and run like the BeJesus when the firing started. If that drum were in the center of your body it would be an obstacle toward running; a lot of drummers died that way. The Jojo video tracks this all the way back to 16th century Switzerland, well not surprising. Jojo's Swiss. I think they both developed independently.

Jazz is firmly rooted in the military drumming, and actually it was the marches of Sousa that supplied the musical context through which ragtime developed. They just ragged those marches. Historians argue that there is no correlation between jazz and ragtime and that jazz developed separately from it. It makes some sense; but I never fully bought that. Maybe someone could explain why. Anyway, these guys knew their rudiments, many had come up through the ranks of the military as both Gadd and Cobham did, later. In the early days Cobham used traditional then switched to matched; but he still played open-handedly.

[aydee]

It is all because drumming is a matter of like and death. Well, we all know that anyway.

The story as conveyed by Scott Johnson is that during the Civil War military drummers developed the traditional grip so the they could tie the snare around one leg and run like the BeJesus when the firing started. If that drum were in the center of your body it would be an obstacle toward running; a lot of drummers died that way. The Jojo video tracks this all the way back to 16th century Switzerland, well not surprising. Jojo's Swiss. I think they both developed independently.

Jazz is firmly rooted in the military drumming, and actually it was the marches of Sousa that supplied the musical context through which ragtime developed. They just ragged those marches. Historians argue that there is no correlation between jazz and ragtime and that jazz developed separately from it. It makes some sense; but I never fully bought that. Maybe someone could explain why. Anyway, these guys knew their rudiments, many had come up through the ranks of the military as both Gadd and Cobham did, later. In the early days Cobham used traditional then switched to matched; but he still played open-handedly.

Gadd was playing trad grip before the army stint, right? Never saw Cobham with a trad grip.. and I've seen him a few times..
The Civil war drums were hooked on a clip at the end of a harness which sat on the hip. You're right, it must have been strapped to the thigh to keep it from wobbling around, and getting in the way of escape.

Ken, is there a good book on all this?( comprehesive history of drums/drumming ) I find it fascinating.

[jjmason777]

If traditional is so great, then how come nobody uses it with both hands?

[BringoDingo]

If traditional is so great, then how come nobody uses it with both hands?


Thank you. That's a large part of my "children would grab the sticks in a matched grip" argument. If it's so good for your left hand, then do it on the right too.

[Wavelength]

If traditional is so great, then how come nobody uses it with both hands?

Different tools for different jobs. You don't see many baseball players with two gloves, do you?

[abe]

Different tools for different jobs. You don't see many baseball players with two gloves, do you?

I totally agree with statement about ''Different tools for different jobs'' , but I don't understand how it goes with second analogy.
Although I have nothing against trad. and I love the way it looks, in music there isn't that kind of sport rules, in music you aim for feel, freedom of expression. Just because it's not allowed to touch ball with hands in soccer, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be more effective if it's allowed.

Sorry for sloppy English :)

[Wavelength]

I totally agree with statement about ''Different tools for different jobs'' , but I don't understand how it goes with second analogy.

Wearing two gloves doubles the chances of catching a ball... and at the same time, makes throwing it very difficult. Similarly using the traditional grip in both hands would essentially cripple the player -- or at least demand a lot of re-thinking the instrument. A baseball player needs his glove to make catching a ball easier (and less painful), and a trad grip player needs his grip in order to use the specific motions and nuances it allows. Both grips have their benefits, shortcomings and uses.

[aydee]

Wearing two gloves doubles the chances of catching a ball... and at the same time, makes throwing it very difficult. Similarly using the traditional grip in both hands would essentially cripple the player -- or at least demand a lot of re-thinking the instrument. A baseball player needs his glove to make catching a ball easier (and less painful), and a trad grip player needs his grip in order to use the specific motions and nuances it allows. Both grips have their benefits, shortcomings and uses.

...yeah, like playing piano with 10 index fingers

...you'd only play " smoke on the water "


: )

[abe]

Wearing two gloves doubles the chances of catching a ball... and at the same time, makes throwing it very difficult. Similarly using the traditional grip in both hands would essentially cripple the player -- or at least demand a lot of re-thinking the instrument. A baseball player needs his glove to make catching a ball easier (and less painful), and a trad grip player needs his grip in order to use the specific motions and nuances it allows. Both grips have their benefits, shortcomings and uses.

OK I got it! I'm not very familiar with baseball (not popular here) and forgot the trowing aspect :(

[aydee]

Here's a fun read off the web:

"Jazz drummers were esseintally out of work military drummers, post war.

And if you go back to military drumming, you know when all the troops had to march and keep a steady rhythm just to keep everybody motivated, moving at the same time, you probably can imagine…

and then the enemy hears all this coming over the mountain, coming around the bend, and they're curious and fearful of how many men are there, because they hear all these thunderous drums. And as coordinated as they looked, that must be how they fought, so it was very important for those drummers to be able to be heard.

Unfortunately for them, those drums, number one, didn't project very well, and number two, weren't able to be held flat. They wore the drums on slings; But those slings made the drums—because, of course the drummers had to march—they made those drums have to go on the side of their bodies, and as they moved, the drums would move too. Which means the angle of the drumhead wouldn't be flat, it would be on its angle like this, and as they marched it would move with their bodies. And at that kind of an angle, matched grip, would have been impossible.
So what they worked out was a way to get louder sounds, and even get some more complicated rhythms to help out… and this is the grip that they developed.

It was very functional, and they would just use their arm and come down, and some wrist… and over the years they started developing better technique, and they even put snares, what was cat gut or goat gut or whatever animal happened to be for dinner, they would take that gut and they would stretch it along the bottom of the drum, and it'll actually have a rat-a-tat-tat sound, thus the snare drum—those are snares. The history of it is actually… the snares they would use to go snare rabbits for dinner, they would use those too, so they called them snares."

[Deltadrummer]

Here is a clip of Billy w/ Horace Silver in '68 using both:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2VYKgFBH3A

Now the question is, did the military teach him traditional grip for a lefty?

I don't know of a book on this.

it is interesting that jazz seemed to prosper in the years after World War One, The Jazz Age, and then after World War Two with the emergence of Bop, Cool Jazz, Hard Bop and Modal Jazz.

[aydee]

Here is a clip of Billy w/ Horace Silver in '68 using both:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2VYKgFBH3A

Now the question is, did the military teach him traditional grip for a lefty?

I don't know of a book on this.

it is interesting that jazz seemed to prosper in the years after World War One, The Jazz Age, and then after World War Two with the emergence of Bop, Cool Jazz, Hard Bop and Modal Jazz.

Ken, I think the pattern of the human cycle is depression, war, celebration, music..............

[BringoDingo]

"and then the enemy hears all this coming over the mountain, coming around the bend, and they're curious and fearful of how many men are there, because they hear all these thunderous drums. And as coordinated as they looked, that must be how they fought, so it was very important for those drummers to be able to be heard."



not sure how prevalent this is because the "jazz" drummers' wars weren't really about marching over hills with thunderous drums, I think. I could be wrong (probably), but honestly, if in WWII there were drummers marching over hills then I think they would be the first ones mowed down in turret fire...those guys wouldn't get 2 para-diddles off before they hit the dirt.

[Wavelength]

I think the pattern of the human cycle is depression, war, celebration, music.

And the pattern of YouTube video comments is "music, war, depression"... and no celebration!

[Jon Cable]

Strangely...when I practice [rarely!] on my pad or knee, I always use traditional grip, but when I'm on my kit I always use matched...is it Freudian? Am I mast***ating with volume? Would I be shot on the battlefield for being unable to run; from using matched grip? If I went to battle with my pad then I could run away...actually I'm 300lbs so running may be a moot point anyway....

[Deltadrummer]

not sure how prevalent this is because the "jazz" drummers' wars weren't really about marching over hills with thunderous drums, I think. I could be wrong (probably), but honestly, if in WWII there were drummers marching over hills then I think they would be the first ones mowed down in turret fire...those guys wouldn't get 2 para-diddles off before they hit the dirt.

The fundamental drum rhythm concept is the march, which of course is a march off to war.
The historical use of drums in warfare is quite an interesting topic. I know guys like Mickey Hart have played a bit with that idea and I'm sure it has been written about.

I guess the drum cycle is something like: garage band, march, bebop, doodle bops, real job, mid-life crisis, new kit, tribute band, swing band . . . bury me with my DW's

[rockinrider]

...he paraphrases that I say "even babies know to hold the sticks matched". when my nieces and nephews come over (ages 8-11) they pick up the sticks in a matched position......


Here's how my 15 month old grand-daughter grabbed my sticks today. This is exactly how she picked up the sticks; no prompting from me. All I did was take the picture.

Look out! She must be a natural jazz talent!..LOL! I'm so proud!

Btw, I use both grips in both jazz and rock. I do like the finger control when using Traditional. I started with Traditional grip many years ago and feel most comfortable with it. I prefer Traditional grip when playing subtle and ghost notes. However, I can get the same power around the set with both grips.

[caprisun3484]

And the pattern of YouTube video comments is "music, war, depression"... and no celebration!


hahaha that's so true

[44Ronin]

Tommy Lang saying that he wished he had never learned the god forsaken thing.

He is the last person on the planet I would hire for a jazz gig (or any gig for that matter)

[Tac3]

Jazz is firmly rooted in the military drumming, and actually it was the marches of Sousa that supplied the musical context through which ragtime developed. They just ragged those marches.

Actually, ragtime and European-style marches developed separately. Ragtime did in fact develop from marches, but not European John Philip Sousa-style marches. It grew out of African-American marching troupes popularized in New Orleans and later New York.

Ragtime utilized the European concept of harmony, but its roots lay in African instrumentation, rhythm, and tonality, drawing heavily from slave work songs. The heritage of ragtime, and later jazz, is profoundly African, not European.

Jazz drummers' technique may have been influenced by European marches, but John Philip Sousa and his contemporaries had nothing to do with the music itself.

[Deltadrummer]

Actually, ragtime and European-style marches developed separately. Ragtime did in fact develop from marches, but not European John Philip Sousa-style marches. It grew out of African-American marching troupes popularized in New Orleans and later New York.

Ragtime utilized the European concept of harmony, but its roots lay in African instrumentation, rhythm, and tonality, drawing heavily from slave work songs. The heritage of ragtime, and later jazz, is profoundly African, not European.

Jazz drummers' technique may have been influenced by European marches, but John Philip Sousa and his contemporaries had nothing to do with the music itself.

Thanks for clarifying that.

I think I should have said jazz drumming is firmly rooted in military drumming. But I think your point is well taken that is was the New Orleans marches for mardi gras and funerals and that type of thing that were important, especially in the root or elemental development of jazz. But later on, perhaps after WWI, I would assume that this type of rudimental drumming associated with the military came to play an important part in jazz drumming. It would make an interesting book. The cover could have Baby Dodds and J Burns Moore trading secrets of the trade.

I never meant that ragtime grew out of Sousa marches but that in fact it was Sousa's marches that provided the fodder for ragging, as well as a lot of other tunes. But from my understanding the Sousa marches were very popular rags. Sousa was tremendously popular at the time.

This has to be a hot issue in jazz studies, since the notion of whether jazz and ragtime are truly African or an amalgam is a heated debate. I would say that the heritage of jazz and ragtime is American, unless of course they had pianos in Africa that I don't know about; in that sense it is an amalgam. One cannot deny that they get their harmonic vocabulary from Europe; I would ask if Joplin's rags were influenced by Sousa's tonalities.

It is interesting to take it back that far since African slaves did serve in the military during the Civil War and therefore may have been exposed to some of the military drumming. Certainly by the late thirties this is important in jazz drumming.

[Tac3]

It is interesting to take it back that far since African slaves did serve in the military during the Civil War and therefore may have been exposed to some of the military drumming. Certainly by the late thirties this is important in jazz drumming.

Good point!

This is one of the few history discussions I've ever actually enjoyed ;)