Black Beauty untunable.

[fingersmazda]

Hey all. First time here, appreciate any thoughts -

I've got a Black Beauty, 5 x14, tube lugs, about 2 years old. Currently has pure sounds, p-85 strainer, hazy snare-side, quality single-ply batter. The damned things refuses to not sound like a trash-can. I've gone through many head types, both snare and batter, and types of snare. Had a friend attempt to tune it as well (claimed he can tune any snare). Still sounds poor. At this point I wonder if it's the poor-quality of some of the hardware.

To wit:
I hate this strainer. Feels weak, hard to tighten those little screws sufficient to hold the snare strings, doesn't like to turn-on without a clever two-hand trick. Think a new throw-off would help? Maybe a Trick, with the adapter plate?

One tension bolt is out of alignment somehow. It came this way. It has no effect whatsoever on tuning/tension of the head. It's tight, but again, does nothing. Another tension bolt only has affect at its tightest point. And that one loosens quite frequently, e.g., after an hour of playing. I'm not sure though what would remedy this - new hoops? new legs? new rod? Any thoughts?

Thinking I got a bum drum, pondering just selling it and getting a Pork-Pie Big-Brass or a Worldmax or something similar.

Thanks.

[fourstringdrums]

It sounds like you may have a bad drum. The tension rod being out of alignment most likely is affecting your tuning even though you say it isn't. If it tightens but does nothing, then that's not good. It could be too that you hoop is not round or is bent. I would put it on a flat surface (formica top is best, not glass, glass isn't always flat) and see if it wobbles anywhere. If it does you can bend it back into shape a bit.

The strainer can affect how the drum sounds. Skitch on here sell both Nickleworks and Trick strainers with a retrofit plate. You can PM him or order one here http://www.dwsnare.com/

Take a look at this video, it might help http://youtube.com/watch?v=tcvQDh7U6Lo

[That Guy]

Thinking I got a bum drum, pondering just selling it and getting a Pork-Pie Big-Brass or a Worldmax or something similar.

Thanks.

Why would you wanna sell a bad drum to someone else? Doesn't that hurt your conscience a little bit?

[fourstringdrums]

Why would you wanna sell a bad drum to someone else? Doesn't that hurt your conscience a little bit?

I think he could sell it but he'd just have to be honest about the drum and be prepared to take a severe loss on it. Some people might want to buy it for cheap and maybe swap out the lugs or hoops or whatever might be causing the problem.

[onemat]

Hi,

A few ideas...

Return to Ludwig for service,

or sell the drum to me!

Did you get it from a Ludwig dealer that has service?

Matt

[GW Drums]

Strange?!? I have the same drum and it sounds fantastic.In fact, this is the first time I've ever heard of a problem from a Black Beauty. I hope it isn't anything major-that should be a drum to last a lifetime. Keep us posted,very strange.

[GW Drums]

Worse case-I would put a 2 ply head or moon gel or something on there before I sold it. Just go for that 70's classic rock sound. I think you should keep it and work out the kinks. I have sold things in the past and now regret it so make sure you think it through.

Good Luck to you.

[fourstringdrums]

Worse case-I would put a 2 ply head or moon gel or something on there before I sold it. Just go for that 70's classic rock sound. I think you should keep it and work out the kinks. I have sold things in the past and now regret it so make sure you think it through.

Good Luck to you.

Especially with the fact that it's a newer BB he'll get screwed on how much money he'll make back on it. I bought a 2007 Supra, sold it a month later and only made $170 out of $350 for it.

[GW Drums]

Especially with the fact that it's a newer BB he'll get screwed on how much money he'll make back on it. I bought a 2007 Supra, sold it a month later and only made $170 out of $350 for it.


Amen, brother! You never seem to get what you paid. No matter how great the gear.

[fourstringdrums]

Amen, brother! You never seem to get what you paid. No matter how great the gear.

Well it depends on what you sell. Ludwig snares are more sought after when it comes to the older drums. Most people would rather pay $300 for a vintage drum than a new one if they honestly felt that it was the better playing and sounding drum.

[GW Drums]

Well it depends on what you sell. Ludwig snares are more sought after when it comes to the older drums. Most people would rather pay $300 for a vintage drum than a new one if they honestly felt that it was the better playing and sounding drum.


I agree.But with the prices now I will have to let my gear age and become a classic (I hope)
on its own. HA! ; )

[KarlCrafton]

I have 3 Black Beauties, 2 have tube lugs, and a World Max with tube lugs.

I've never had a problem with any of them (BB's) sounding bad, or heard of a bad sounding one, so it's probably not the shell itself.

As far as a World Max, or a Pork Pie BB knock off goes....
They are nice drums, but if your problem is just lack of tuning knowledge, a different drum isn't going to solve that.
I'm just sayin'...I'm not trying to be an a-hole.

As far as your drum problems...
You may have some bad hoops that aren't flat.
You can get those pretty inexpensively if they are bad.
Gibraltar make really nice 2.3 hoops.
Check yours on a good formica or marble table top.

If the drum never sounded good, it could be bent hoops damaged in shipping.

Check to make sure all the lugs are straight. If you've been having trouble with those, one or more could be crooked because of shiping damage.
Tube lugs can be funny, and you can strip them if you don't take your time putting in the rods.

If you have one or two rods that back out, Tight Screw tension rods WILL solve that problem.
http://www.tightscrew.com/index.htm
These really do work great, and are inexpensive.

Good advice perviously about the bottom head.
Make sure it's tuned up, or the drum will never sound good.

If it's too loose, your drum will sound like crap. The wires HAVE to be straight, and centered as well, or else ..crap.
If it gets too tight, the drum will choke a bit, and you'd notice that.

I don't know if it's just me, but on 5" drums, I always have the bottom head pretty tight.
42 strand wires sound better to me on the shallow drums too...kinda the opposite of a lot of people I guess.....

You said you tried different heads.
Mine sound great with Coated Emps, Coated CS Black Dot, regular Black Dot, Evans G2, Evans Power Center (I like the top dot version), and my favorite, the Coated Emp with Top Dot (BE-0114-22).

The strainer problem can be fixed cheaper than buying a Trick or Nickleworks (though both are nice).

Switch the P-85 to the Ludwig Millenium strainer.
They are only about $25-30 depending on where you get it--just a little more money than a P-85 replacement.

I switched all my P-85's to this one and have been very happy with the performance (been a couple years now of use, no problems at all).

This one is a way nice strainer than the P-85, has drum key clamping, it's smooth and quiet, and it looks cool as all get out with the engraving on it.

It'll also keep your drum 'stock', which is good if you do sell it.
"Ludwig people" tend to like things stock (as far as holes go), and you don't want to drill a different strainer hole pattern in a Black Beauty.

I'm not positive, but I think the Trick & NW strainers have retro fit plates so you probably don't have to drill.

If all else fails (hoops, tuning, etc...before changing strainers) you can still send the drum back to Ludwig as it's only been 2 years, & the warrantee period is longer than that (3-5 years I think).

I'd go through your local Ludwig dealer for a return, and not Musicians Friend--even though you bought it from them.

Good luck with your drum!

[KarlCrafton]

Well it depends on what you sell. Ludwig snares are more sought after when it comes to the older drums. Most people would rather pay $300 for a vintage drum than a new one if they honestly felt that it was the better playing and sounding drum.

I'd like to see a $300 Black Beauty!
Engraved please :P!!!
Yeah!!!

I'll take a 6.5 w/floral pattern, brass or bronze shell will do.

Will that complete your order sir?

Yes, thank you.

Supras--other than the real old brass shell drums--all have the (basically) same sound, so having a new one, or a Blue/Green badge 70's isn't going to make any difference.
It's gonna sound like a Ludwig Supraphonic--which is an awesome sound.
Now to the person buying it, they may think it's cooler, but in reality, they're still made the same as back then.

fourstringdrums, that sucks about how much you got for that drum.
Did you sell it to someone, or back to the store?
I made the mistake years ago of selling a couple cymbals to a store to get something else....it wasn't a totally suck a$$ deal, but I felt like I got ripped off when I thought about it later.
I was a lot younger and dumber then...

[Stevesmithfan]

I have the same Ludwig Black Beauty as you and I've never had problem with it. Make sure your snares aren't too tight against the bottom head, that could make a drum sound very boxy. Trying loosening the snares.
Good Luck.

[Pete Stoltman]

If all else fails (hoops, tuning, etc...before changing strainers) you can still send the drum back to Ludwig as it's only been 2 years, & the warrantee period is longer than that (3-5 years I think).

I'd go through your local Ludwig dealer for a return, and not Musicians Friend--even though you bought it from them.

Good luck with your drum!

This is an example of why I encourage guys to buy from a local dealer rather than mail-order discount places. I suspect if you purchased this drum from a store with a decent drum department the problem would already be fixed. Also, I have a problem with guys buying from the lowest price dealer and then going to the local dealer when things go bad. You weren't willing to pay his price for the benefit of having a local connection but when you've got a problem you expect him to take care of you? Sorry, just a personal pet-peeve. I've worked for a number of independent retailers over the years both in and out of the music business and I hate it when guys expect the local to educate them and take care of all their service issues but then spend the money at "the lowest bidder".

[Stevesmithfan]

This is an example of why I encourage guys to buy from a local dealer rather than mail-order discount places. I suspect if you purchased this drum from a store with a decent drum department the problem would already be fixed. Also, I have a problem with guys buying from the lowest price dealer and then going to the local dealer when things go bad. You weren't willing to pay his price for the benefit of having a local connection but when you've got a problem you expect him to take care of you? Sorry, just a personal pet-peeve. I've worked for a number of independent retailers over the years both in and out of the music business and I hate it when guys expect the local to educate them and take care of all their service issues but then spend the money at "the lowest bidder".
Well Said! I couldn't have said it better.

[onemat]

As for Musicians Friend... I bet if you call them, they will do right by you. Better yet, if you have your receipt, call Ludwig. Send it to them.
My BB is the "Brass" Edition with the Millenium Throwoff. Personally I like the look of the Chrome BBs better, Tube Lugs or not, but having the brass edition has been a good investment. I've been offered more than I paid for it on several occasions. I guess there aren't too many left anymore. I haven't heard of problems with ANY newly made American Supras, just the cheap imported ones. I wouldn't epect to get my money out of a newly purchased stock Supra, or any other in-production snare in a short period of time. I have a '65 Supra presently. The only think wrong with my '65 is it had the wrong muffler on it..I replaced it with a baseball bat muffler after the pic below was taken. Contrary to popular belief, they all don't have flaking finishes. Mine isn't flaking and either was my '67. You currently can get a minty Sixties Supra for around $300, an alternative to buying a new one. I never leave them out in the car at night, for fear that cold and damp conditions will start the flaking problem. Actually, I never leave anything out overnight. My Supra and Black Beauty below. I wish I had the money for an engraving job on the BB. ...Matt
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f357/onemat/Share/supra1.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f357/onemat/Share/stickshot.jpg

[Chonson]

Before you sell it, give it a thorough once-over... to quote Gatzen, which has rarely been more accurate in my mind: "Know where your drum is at."

Based on what you're saying and what I've experienced, the very first thing I'd be checking is if your hoops are round and true. Drop a new head in, and see if it's got roughly the same amount of clearance on all sides... rotate it in place, see if that happens. Measure the hoop's diameter at several points to verify that. For trueness, set it on a flat surface and try and wobble it. If you can, you can just bend it back into shape as a quick fix. I had a Gretsch hoop slightly out and it just complicated things immensely.

Failing that, check the drum for roundness and true -- best test for true is the light bulb test.

If the drum passes the test, then you should be able to get a good snares-off tone with relatively minimal effort. May take some head changes to get the real killer combo, but you shouldn't have a lot of difficulty getting an overall good tone. At that point, as mentioned... check your snares to make sure they're in good condition, that they're flat and not bending/twisted in any weird ways.

As an experiment, and I didn't see if you mentioned it clearly. Mark the trouble lug when tuning. Take the head off, rotate the hoop so it's not going on in the exact same position. See if the trouble lug is the same one. If everything else has passed the test, and nothing seems to be right, you may have a lug that's off.

It's a killer drum. I'd fight it a little longer and really examine what's up. I did it with a troublesome gretsch and it was worth the effort. Focus on getting a solid tone without the snares first.

And if you haven't -- check out the Gatzen video. Even if you know how to tune well, there's bound to be some sort of aha moment in there. (There was for me and I've been happy with my tuning for a long time). But he's really meticulous about how to check the drum and make sure everything's solid. Definitely not the most thrilling video, but it is one of the most useful.

Also, try aquarian TC with dot + classic clear snare side. I've got that on my COB Supra and it kills.

[Rickk]

Chonson,
You are right with the Head choice, I have the Aquarian Texture coated and Clear Resonant side on my Black Beauty and I think it sounds Fantastic. huge difference from the stock heads. I tune the Bottom head fairley tight but not too much,
then the top I adjust until I get the sound I like that's when I engage the snares starting loose and then till it sounds good to me.

Rick

[Skitch]

Hey all. First time here, appreciate any thoughts -

I've got a Black Beauty, 5 x14, tube lugs, about 2 years old. Currently has pure sounds, p-85 strainer, hazy snare-side, quality single-ply batter. The damned things refuses to not sound like a trash-can. I've gone through many head types, both snare and batter, and types of snare. Had a friend attempt to tune it as well (claimed he can tune any snare). Still sounds poor. At this point I wonder if it's the poor-quality of some of the hardware.

To wit:
I hate this strainer. Feels weak, hard to tighten those little screws sufficient to hold the snare strings, doesn't like to turn-on without a clever two-hand trick. Think a new throw-off would help? Maybe a Trick, with the adapter plate?

One tension bolt is out of alignment somehow. It came this way. It has no effect whatsoever on tuning/tension of the head. It's tight, but again, does nothing. Another tension bolt only has affect at its tightest point. And that one loosens quite frequently, e.g., after an hour of playing. I'm not sure though what would remedy this - new hoops? new legs? new rod? Any thoughts?

Thinking I got a bum drum, pondering just selling it and getting a Pork-Pie Big-Brass or a Worldmax or something similar.

Thanks.

Lemme jump in on this one since my name was brought up....

Before you make the investment on another throw-off, let's eliminated everything else...Really spend some time checking the head tension. Also, it was brought up about the hoops. Make certain that they are round; take them and compare them to some other hoops or trial fit several different heads in the hoops and the heads should spin fairly free. If the hoops are bent or out of round, nothing you do will help them and you will need to replace it or them.

I would also try to get some new lugs, which you can find at Explorers' percussion in Kansas City and replace any that aren't up to snuff. It sounds like this drum needs so TLC by being taken all the way down to bare shell. Check all of the tension rods and make certain that the rods' threading fits fine in the lugs. You never know - someone may have put a DW finer thread rod in one of the lugs and cross threaded the lug.

Here is what I would do if it were my drum:


Tear the drum apart - it is a black beauty and is therefore worthy of some attention before you give up!.
Check all of the lugs and tension rods - you just don't know if something has been crossthreaded. This can be a big issue with tube lugs because there is no "give" with tube lugs. I have also had some bad tube lugs before or the tension rods were too long and were bottoming out on each other.
Get a brand new head and put on the drum and see if the head spins freely. Don't worry about having a snare side head to do this with - an unused head will work just fine no matter the intended use. What you want to determine is if the shell is out of round.
Repeat step 3 with both hoops. We want some free movement. If you have to force anything, that part is more than likely your culprit and will need to be replaced!


I wouldn't quit on this drum I would just make certain that all of the parts are working as they were intended too.

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[Skitch]

As far as your drum problems...
You may have some bad hoops that aren't flat.
You can get those pretty inexpensively if they are bad.
Gibraltar make really nice 2.3 hoops.
Check yours on a good formica or marble table top.

If the drum never sounded good, it could be bent hoops damaged in shipping.



You never know what happened before it got to you.



Check to make sure all the lugs are straight. If you've been having trouble with those, one or more could be crooked because of shiping damage.
Tube lugs can be funny, and you can strip them if you don't take your time putting in the rods.



The rods could have been hastily put in at the factory; you never know....


Good advice perviously about the bottom head.
Make sure it's tuned up, or the drum will never sound good.

If it's too loose, your drum will sound like crap. The wires HAVE to be straight, and centered as well, or else ..crap.
If it gets too tight, the drum will choke a bit, and you'd notice that.




Good advice here...and centerd means that neither end of the wires is on tp of the bearing edge or extneding out from the drum. On this drum, the wires are suppossed to be on the head and this drum shouldn't be using the "extended" wire sets like the type used on the Pearl Free Floating snares. Also, while we are on the subject, make sure that the soldered side is towards the drum head and not away from it.


I don't know if it's just me, but on 5" drums, I always have the bottom head pretty tight.
42 strand wires sound better to me on the shallow drums too...kinda the opposite of a lot of people I guess.....



I can't say that I agree with you here, Karl, on the 42 strand snares but if it's what you like.....also, the snare drum is pretty much always going to have quite a bit of tension for the crack. I spent much time torturing myself at age 16 trying to get all of those studio recorded snare sounds.



You said you tried different heads.
Mine sound great with Coated Emps, Coated CS Black Dot, regular Black Dot, Evans G2, Evans Power Center (I like the top dot version), and my favorite, the Coated Emp with Top Dot (BE-0114-22).


I'm not positive, but I think the Trick & NW strainers have retro fit plates so you probably don't have to drill.



Yes, that is my purpose for having designed these so that we drummers don't have to butcher a great snare drum. I have seen many botched drums due to impatience. Once you start drilling on a drum, you drill most of the value right out of it. The Trick to Ludwig is by far my best seller followed by the Trick to DW.



If all else fails (hoops, tuning, etc...before changing strainers) you can still send the drum back to Ludwig as it's only been 2 years, & the warrantee period is longer than that (3-5 years I think).

I'd go through your local Ludwig dealer for a return, and not Musicians Friend--even though you bought it from them.

Good luck with your drum!

Karl gives some great advice here and before spending any more of your hard-earned money, follow his suggestions above to make certain that all of the parts are working as intended...don't get me wrong, I would love to sell you one of my kits, but I would rather see you getting it working poroperly first!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[fingersmazda]

Original Poster here -

Thanks very much for all the thorough and considerate advice. It's greatly appreciated.

My time has been pressed this week so I've not been able to follow the advice yet. BUT, I agree with Skitch and the others about giving it a thorough once over before taking any drastic measures. That's this weekends agenda.

One thing I did do is replace the stainless steel snare wires (I.e., the wires connecting the snares to the throw-off) with an original style plastic strip. For some reason, I think the P-85 has a difficult time really holding on to the wires, so the tension is lost very quickly. This helped regain some of the snare *crack*. I do think I'll switch strainers though; this is the last plastic strip I have and can only find stainless wires for replacement.

So, yes, this weekend: test the hoops, the drum for roundness, check the lugs/rods for cross threading, etc.

Regarding heads, I currently have a quality brand (Evans? I forget) coated reverse dot on the batter. This is the third head I think I've tried, and is the best so far.

And finally, to those getting up in arms about wanting local service for a non-locally purchased drum. I certainly hear where you're coming from, and I support the little guy whenever I can, but yes I did buy this online, through GC or Musicians' Friend or something. But walk a mile in a guys shoes before you start to get upset: I don't know if you've drum shopped in NYC, but it ain't pretty. Stock is weak, often typical/low end, or conversely very, very rare/extreme high-end. And I found zero BB's, or any metal Ludwig drum. So I ordered online. If anybody knows any good shops around here, I welcome the input. In fact, I don't even think I've seen a non-corporate drum store around here....?

Otherwise, again much thanks to all those who respond - it is appreciated.

[Pete Stoltman]

Please understand I wasn't upset at you personally (note I said sorry in my post) but just the pervasive attitude in our society to relinquish local support and customer service for cheap pricing. I don't know anything about the drum market in NYC but I always remember hearing about The Modern Drum Shop as a good dealer. I don't know if they stock Ludwig but that could be a possible local connection for future drum gear.

[fourstringdrums]

One thing I did do is replace the stainless steel snare wires (I.e., the wires connecting the snares to the throw-off) with an original style plastic strip. For some reason, I think the P-85 has a difficult time really holding on to the wires, so the tension is lost very quickly. This helped regain some of the snare *crack*. I do think I'll switch strainers though; this is the last plastic strip I have and can only find stainless wires for replacement.

It sounds to me like it's probably not the snares themselves but the strainer. It's not that they're slipping where the strainer holds on, it's that the adjustment knob is loosening up as you play, a common problem with the Ludwig strainers. Once you put a new one on (preferably a Nickleworks or Trick with a retroplate) you'll be good to go I'm sure.

[GW Drums]

I wish I had the money for an engraving job on the BB. ...Matt
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f357/onemat/Share/supra1.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f357/onemat/Share/stickshot.jpg

I would love to get mine done. I have never priced this-what are we talking???

[KarlCrafton]

I'd love to get my BB's engraved with the floral pattern Ludwig had.

About 10-11 years ago I believe John Aldridge (Not So Modern Drummer) was doing an engraving service, but I don't know if it's available anymore.

It could have been just for dealers, and not for the "general public".

A dealer I know was going to send some drums to him, and asked me if I wanted to send mine too. The price then was $150 or something like that. I'm sure it would be more than that these days.

I could affort that now...but back then no (of course!).

My 6.5 Ludwig Red Sparkle wood snare seems to function best with the standard hoops, and the plastic strap and not strings too.

It has tube lugs, and the Millenium strainer.

I tried it with the straight hoops like I have on a couple of my BB's, but it just didn't sound as cool.

One thing that's funny now, (but kinda embarassing!) was, I was having a hard time getting it to sound good after trying different heads, hoops etc...generally having fun getting to know the drum.

Anyway, the thing was just NOT working, and the snares were sounding really wierd, and no amount of tensioning on the bottom head was doing any good...I was messing with this drum off and on for hours...


....I had the wires on upside down :P :P..............ooops!!

[fingersmazda]

I was not entirely offended about the buy-corporate but service-local rant ; ). Likely because I do like to support the little dude and don't want to be thought to be on the other side. Sometimes though, Starbucks is the only coffee-shop you can find, you know?

As for The Modern Drum Shop, I've seen it, checked it out a bit. A good place for serious repair work, but as a retailer they limit themselves primarily to their in-house custom drums and consignments.

Any other NYr's have a good drum retailer connection?

[fourstringdrums]

I was not entirely offended about the buy-corporate but service-local rant ; ). Likely because I do like to support the little dude and don't want to be thought to be on the other side. Sometimes though, Starbucks is the only coffee-shop you can find, you know?

As for The Modern Drum Shop, I've seen it, checked it out a bit. A good place for serious repair work, but as a retailer they limit themselves primarily to their in-house custom drums and consignments.

Any other NYr's have a good drum retailer connection?

Don't worry about it. A good majority of us buy online from larger places because of the reasons you said, sometimes there is just not a lot of choice where you live. That's the case where I am. Although now I go through online retailers who are a bit smaller like Mass Music, just because they're easier to deal with than MF or GC when you have a problem.

[Skitch]

I'd love to get my BB's engraved with the floral pattern Ludwig had.

About 10-11 years ago I believe John Aldridge (Not So Modern Drummer) was doing an engraving service, but I don't know if it's available anymore.

It could have been just for dealers, and not for the "general public".

A dealer I know was going to send some drums to him, and asked me if I wanted to send mine too. The price then was $150 or something like that. I'm sure it would be more than that these days.

I could affort that now...but back then no (of course!).

My 6.5 Ludwig Red Sparkle wood snare seems to function best with the standard hoops, and the plastic strap and not strings too.

It has tube lugs, and the Millenium strainer.

I tried it with the straight hoops like I have on a couple of my BB's, but it just didn't sound as cool.

One thing that's funny now, (but kinda embarassing!) was, I was having a hard time getting it to sound good after trying different heads, hoops etc...generally having fun getting to know the drum.

Anyway, the thing was just NOT working, and the snares were sounding really wierd, and no amount of tensioning on the bottom head was doing any good...I was messing with this drum off and on for hours...


....I had the wires on upside down :P :P..............ooops!!


We all do that in our own way....I had a Holley carb that I rebuilt and couldn't get it to run right. I had installed a gasket backwards.

Yes, John Aldridge still does engraving....I talked to him at an REO soundcheck last April. I think he has a year's waiting list, but I can't recall well enough to know for certain.

I also quit using the string and stay with the plastic straps myself. The string was originally used for the older P-85s which didn't have the clamp to tighten down. Makes you wonder how any of the drums had a snare sound at all.

And the Millennium strainer is ok; it is just a redesign of the old gladstone-style throw-off as is the DW drop. The inherent problem with the Gladstone style throw-off is that it presses the snares into the head and tend to choke the drum. This is why you see so many DW snares or sale on Ebay. You can't get away from the choked sound using their throw-offs.

I do have a Ludalloy Supraphonic with the Trick Retrokit on it and my new butt retrokit (no more screwdrivers!) and am woorking it over really good!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw