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Does Mike Mangini use Moeller pumping motion in his playing? And how much, if yes?
Does Mike Mangini use Moeller pumping motion in his playing? And how much, if yes?
To my understanding, the pumping motion is the "pull-out" stroke... and it's usually a reverse/inverted double with the second note accented or any multiple of tap/wrist turn strokes that end with a Moeller accent preceded by an upstroke.
So, with that definition, Mike does a number of them in this awesome clip--
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jLwTkdeResc
Pay close attention to his left hand at about 1:37 ...
Jojo Mayer mentions on the MD fest DVD that this stroke was the most difficult to get down.
It's also an important stroke to get down with the Murray Spivack approach of not opening and closing the middle finger fulcrum in matched grip (the basis of the grip). So it's purely played from the wrist and forearm (try it with the barehands: up/down - up/down).
To my understanding, the pumping motion is the "pull-out" stroke... and it's usually a reverse/inverted double with the second note accented or any multiple of tap/wrist turn strokes that end with a Moeller accent preceded by an upstroke.
So, with that definition, Mike does a number of them in this awesome clip--
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jLwTkdeResc
Pay close attention to his left hand at about 1:37 ...
Jojo Mayer mentions on the MD fest DVD that this stroke was the most difficult to get down.
It's also an important stroke to get down with the Murray Spivack approach of not opening and closing the middle finger fulcrum in matched grip (the basis of the grip). So it's purely played from the wrist and forearm (try it with the barehands: up/down - up/down).
Wow... just as I thought, his hands are too fast for my eyes!!!
Still it looks different from Jojo's or Dom's motion. Does he use some modifications?
Wow... just as I thought, his hands are too fast for my eyes!!!
Still it looks different from Jojo's or Dom's motion. Does he use some modifications?
I don't know Dom's playing too well, but, whereas Jojo rotates the arm (the "pump"), Mike's version is a straight up and down motion from the elbow.
I personally prefer Mike's version as it allows you to more consistently hit the same spot through the up/down strokes (though it takes A LOT of practice!).
Jeff Almeyda
10-09-2007, 12:47 PM
I study with Mike and while he may employ a pumping motion for accents and such, he is definitely NOT a "Moeller guy".
Mike is really a simple wrist guy. (The twitch notwithstanding). He is a proponent of distributing the stress over the entire musculature as opposed to isolating the fingers or anything like that.
When you consider that he can play over 1000 strokes in a minute with his BARE HANDS, you may start to wonder about the ultimate validity of such techniques as finger control, Moeller and push/pull. Mike certainly doesn't need any of those things to play at his speeds.
I see him again on the 26th. I'll ask him a question for you if you wish.
Raymond Bloom
10-09-2007, 01:11 PM
To my understanding, the pumping motion is the "pull-out" stroke... and it's usually a reverse/inverted double with the second note accented or any multiple of tap/wrist turn strokes that end with a Moeller accent preceded by an upstroke.
Actually, you are completely wrong! The pull-out is a completely different part of the Moeller technique, the basic pull-out pattern would be - R r r r R R r r r R etc
The pumping motion is a continuous pattern with one accent, for example: R r r R r r R r r
or: R r r r R r r r etc
the accent is allways on the first beat
check out Jojo's dvd for more info! There isn't any better video lesson about this stuff than his dvd, or if you're very lucky - get a lesson from him, it will change your way of playing dramaticaly!
Erik Lund
10-09-2007, 01:52 PM
"The pull-out is a completely different part of the Moeller technique"
But condoms remain the safest form of Moeller technique. Stay safe kids!
Actually, you are completely wrong! The pull-out is a completely different part of the Moeller technique, the basic pull-out pattern would be - R r r r R R r r r R etc
The pumping motion is a continuous pattern with one accent, for example: R r r R r r R r r
or: R r r r R r r r etc
the accent is allways on the first beat
Ah, okay.
I've never officially studied the Moeller "method."
I follow Murray Spivack's concepts, which does use a whipping motion and three basic strokes-- wrist turn, upstroke, downstroke/accent, but played straight up and down hitting the exact same spot on the drum for each stroke.
But the way I've seen Jojo, Weckl and others describe Moeller is different. IMHO, there actually seems to be an unnecessary and almost inefficient amount of movement in the arm, not to mention the strokes are kind of all over the place... but maybe I need to investigate it more.
I can say though that Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil, Garibaldi, Louie Bellson and Chad Wackerman have followed Spivack's stuff, so I'd also recommend to anyone to look into it.
Raymond Bloom
10-09-2007, 06:36 PM
But the way I've seen Jojo, Weckl and others describe Moeller is different. IMHO, there actually seems to be an unnecessary and almost inefficient amount of movement in the arm, not to mention the strokes are kind of all over the place... but maybe I need to investigate it more.
Well, Jojo showed me that stuff himself! There are plenty of Moeller hybrids and possibilities how to downsize the movement, most of the times Moeller technique is shown with exaggerated motions to understand the concept, Moeller can be downsized to almost push-pull motion
I study with Mike and while he may employ a pumping motion for accents and such, he is definitely NOT a "Moeller guy".
Mike is really a simple wrist guy. (The twitch notwithstanding). He is a proponent of distributing the stress over the entire musculature as opposed to isolating the fingers or anything like that.
When you consider that he can play over 1000 strokes in a minute with his BARE HANDS, you may start to wonder about the ultimate validity of such techniques as finger control, Moeller and push/pull. Mike certainly doesn't need any of those things to play at his speeds.
I see him again on the 26th. I'll ask him a question for you if you wish.
Seriously? I would love to hear his thoughts! Thanks man.
I had an impression from few of his solos that he isn't Moeller guy, well not at least at usual way. Jojo, Dom and Morello looks visualy different from Mangini when executing accents or making Moeller pumping motion. So I was curious to ask this question.
Well, Jojo showed me that stuff himself!
That must've been awesome!
There are plenty of Moeller hybrids and possibilities how to downsize the movement, most of the times Moeller technique is shown with exaggerated motions to understand the concept, Moeller can be downsized to almost push-pull motion
That makes sense.
A lot of Jojo's stuff seems very push-pull. I'm really looking forward to checking out his DVD...
Raymond Bloom
10-10-2007, 03:14 PM
That must've been awesome!
he drastically changed my drumming, I'm able to play things I never even dream about! he's not only a total drum guru and one of the most amazing players today but a very great teacher and a cool guy!
A lot of Jojo's stuff seems very push-pull. I'm really looking forward to checking out his DVD...
He mixes every possible technique there is, very much of his playing is Moeller based, especially his left hand movements, his right hand involves the push-pull concepts a bit more, his ability to switch between Moeller, push-pull, and his own hybrids - Mayer-Moeller, and the Valving technique is simply amazing!
Jojo's dvd is a must have for every drummer!
I see him again on the 26th. I'll ask him a question for you if you wish.
Well, Jeff I hope you didn't forget to ask Mr. Mangini my awkward question :)
What's his own opinion? Does he use moeller pumping motion, also pull outs etc?
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