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zappafan
10-07-2007, 02:34 PM
Alright boys and girls, here I go.

I've read in many threads the importance of technique and have read many threads that critique famous drummers technical drumming or lack thereof.

Music for the general public is not about technique. It's about what you hear and how it moves you. Whether it makes you want to grab a beer (AC/DC), or make you want to sit back and relax (Bach).

I understand that technique is important, but to hear the absolute blathering on how bad the technique and skills of everyone from Lars to Portnoy is absolutely ridiculous. Not everyone is Dave Weckl nor do they want to be, although I'm sure I can find stuff here about his skill or lack thereof. You cannot please everyone all the time. I understand that, but c'mon.

Many people on this forum have a great amount of skill. I've watched and heard the vids and clips. But there is a lot of arrogance as well. Not everyone loves to play a clave in 21/17 time or wants to listen to it for that matter.

My point - why do so many guys bash the pros on lack of skill or technique? I'll take playing snare on 2 and 4 in front of 30,000 screaming fans over being able to do a right foot clave while playing 13/3 time with my left hand in front of 7 drunks in a bar.

I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second.

My wife asked me to take out the part about the arrogant jazz players here, but I believe it is the truth, so I'm leaving it in.

That is all.... :)

Peace.

aydee
10-07-2007, 02:46 PM
I buy most of what you're saying.

The part I don't buy is that a lot of drummers, or for that matter musicians, will play what they play in the 7 drunks bars, and will take that over music they don't believe in. Even if that comes with a fat paycheck.

I think the list in the history of music suggests enough examples of 'trail blazers' in every genre, that did'nt sell out, and chose to be themselves and express their inner self through their music.

It might not even be a considered decision. They might not know another way, except to be true to themselves.

Tutin
10-07-2007, 03:02 PM
Alright boys and girls, here I go.

I've read in many threads the importance of technique and have read many threads that critique famous drummers technical drumming or lack thereof.

Music for the general public is not about technique. It's about what you hear and how it moves you. Whether it makes you want to grab a beer (AC/DC), or make you want to sit back and relax (Bach).

I understand that technique is important, but to hear the absolute blathering on how bad the technique and skills of everyone from Lars to Portnoy is absolutely ridiculous. Not everyone is Dave Weckl nor do they want to be, although I'm sure I can find stuff here about his skill or lack thereof. You cannot please everyone all the time. I understand that, but c'mon.

Many people on this forum have a great amount of skill. I've watched and heard the vids and clips. But there is a lot of arrogance as well. Not everyone loves to play a clave in 21/17 time or wants to listen to it for that matter.

My point - why do so many guys bash the pros on lack of skill or technique? I'll take playing snare on 2 and 4 in front of 30,000 screaming fans over being able to do a right foot clave while playing 13/3 time with my left hand in front of 7 drunks in a bar.

I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second.

My wife asked me to take out the part about the arrogant jazz players here, but I believe it is the truth, so I'm leaving it in.

That is all.... :)

Peace.

You're right man. To add to that, I was at a Scottish WFD event last week, and some guys were hitting like 900+ with pretty awful technique and no warm up or previous practice. My point is that DAve Weckyl, this master of technique, who's sold loads of instructional videos, couldn't hit 900.

zappafan
10-07-2007, 03:09 PM
aydee - I hear what you are saying, but just because you are playing in stadiums, does that mean you are not true to yourself? Must you play in only dives and go unnoticed not to be considered a sell out?

I think the stadium bands are doing what they love and are staying true to their respective roots. If you believe in the "Nothing Else Matters" tune and album and the spoils that go along with it, is that wrong? If Metallica hated playing the black album and every tune on it, I doubt they would have recorded it. It seems that making money at music is a bad thing. Go figure.

Peace.

aydee
10-07-2007, 03:41 PM
Sure, like Metallica, there are exceptions that stand out. There are a few in every genre. Playing vibrant incredible, unique, true -to- themselves- music, AND selling out huge stadiums. at the same time
but for every Metallica, there are a 1000 other bands going up and down the highway playing for their dinner and gas for the band van.

If they are lucky enough to get noticed, 'the industry' will tell them to tone it down, get a girl singer, change the guitar player, add some strings... make it more mass...etc

IMO, most popular and successful music is designed to be average so that it is acceptable to many. It has to be, to generate volume sales.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there is the Music Industry then there is the Music
...and ironically, often they are at odds with each other.

AND there are some musicians who don't /can't make that compromise.

mattsmith
10-07-2007, 04:30 PM
Alright boys and girls, here I go.

I've read in many threads the importance of technique and have read many threads that critique famous drummers technical drumming or lack thereof.

Music for the general public is not about technique. It's about what you hear and how it moves you. Whether it makes you want to grab a beer (AC/DC), or make you want to sit back and relax (Bach).

I understand that technique is important, but to hear the absolute blathering on how bad the technique and skills of everyone from Lars to Portnoy is absolutely ridiculous. Not everyone is Dave Weckl nor do they want to be, although I'm sure I can find stuff here about his skill or lack thereof. You cannot please everyone all the time. I understand that, but c'mon.

Many people on this forum have a great amount of skill. I've watched and heard the vids and clips. But there is a lot of arrogance as well. Not everyone loves to play a clave in 21/17 time or wants to listen to it for that matter.

My point - why do so many guys bash the pros on lack of skill or technique? I'll take playing snare on 2 and 4 in front of 30,000 screaming fans over being able to do a right foot clave while playing 13/3 time with my left hand in front of 7 drunks in a bar.

I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second.

My wife asked me to take out the part about the arrogant jazz players here, but I believe it is the truth, so I'm leaving it in.

That is all.... :)

Peace.

Curious, besides the one ill considered thread, who are these legions of tech head drummers you observe slamming every famous drummer under the sun? For instance when I'm scouring youtube, the primary contentious tech heads aren't jazz guys, but that small handful of the metal crowd who make their lists of greatest tech drummers then scream the words jazz snob when they can't articulate their opinion.

I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second.

Now I'm certainly not going to slam Lars U, because that's not where I'm going here. But if you really believe in a million years that Max Roach, Tony Williams or Elvin Jones gave a rip about any of things you mentioned here then you're wrong. Now by me telling you that you're wrong, does that make a snob? If I decide to correct you about the true nature of Bach's music, does that make me a snob?

Music for the general public is not about technique. It's about what you hear and how it moves you. Whether it makes you want to grab a beer (AC/DC), or make you want to sit back and relax (Bach).

Straight up man, the most arrogant thing in the world is to inform someone about what music actually is instead of simply stating that it's your opinion, based on any number of other factors. And to follow up that arrogance with a largely discounted stereotype /jazz guys in trashy bars etc.../ as some kind of supposedly clever poke, is also arrogant.

I've said this before but it bears repeating. This jazzsnob angle that some use when they want to strike out at something but can't quite figure out how to do it is long past old. If you want to make your true point, do it. Just make sure it's actaully a point, and not a veiled stereotype substituting for the real thing.

Honestly, I need to find this deserted island where all these evil jazzsnobs come from.

That Guy
10-07-2007, 04:37 PM
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there is the Music Industry then there is the Music
...and ironically, often they are at odds with each other.

AND there are some musicians who don't /can't make that compromise.

Thats the point exactly Aydee. These 2 entities are not in harmony with eachother to say the least. Very few artists are able to have thier music/art left alone and sold on its own merit that will generate revenue for the industry.

Not many musicians get to understand this point through actual experience. Unfortunately, I am one of them. My heart was broken 10 years ago by the realization of the clash that these 2 entities have with eachother. Thats all I'm going to say about that.

I do understand what Zappafan is trying to relate and he is rightly given the opportunity to state it. He has valid points too. There are always responses to these types of threads that add to the greater picture of the opinon.

GRUNTERSDAD
10-07-2007, 05:01 PM
Quote:
My point - why do so many guys bash the pros on lack of skill or technique? I'll take playing snare on 2 and 4 in front of 30,000 screaming fans over being able to do a right foot clave while playing 13/3 time with my left hand in front of 7 drunks in a bar.

I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second.

Response

Maybe the real problem with "music" today is that the masses will take the 2 and 4 snare along with their beer and pot, and not really have any idea that there is other music out there. Jazz being only one of them. For me to stereotype the big arena rock as all beer drinkers or pot heads is no different than your stereotype of jazz being just in crappy little bars.

The same rights that allow us to like jazz in crappy little bars also allows us to come on this forum, a drummers forum, and criticize or critique ALL drummers. Only by stating and being allowed to state, our opinions, do we cause thought which is what sets us apart from the other beings walking, crawling, or swimming on this planet.

I have met jazz performers and jazz enthusiasts that are educated, hard working, musicians that are anything but ARROGANT. Music and life is about far more than just the size of one's "bank book"

Maybe your wife had a good point...

aydee
10-07-2007, 06:07 PM
Not many musicians get to understand this point through actual experience. Unfortunately, I am one of them. My heart was broken 10 years ago by the realization of the clash that these 2 entities have with eachother. .

Yeah, sorry to hear that, TG,but thats a recurring theme, and lots of us have been wounded in this battle.

I've been in and out of the music biz, and I've seen the machine work at close quarters. The fact is, the business has very little to do with music.

Sure, you'll get a smashing Pumpkins, or an Opeth, or U2 or whatever, just as easily as you might a Norah Jones or a Joshua Redman, or a Wynton Marsailes, but these are the very, very few lucky ones.

To create a band/artist to fill stadiums you cannot do without A-class marketing, big-ticket producers, record labels, videos, demographic and ethnic appeal for the appropriate markets,image managers, stylists, public relations, paparazzi,...and..

maybe some music as well...but even that not essiential...

I hear, and I might be wrong , that 80% of the music heard on stage at an Usher or a Beyonce concert is pre-canned and sequenced. I hear All through her career, Madonna has sung most of her live gigs through Antaris Auto-tune, a real-time pitch corrector hooked up to her microphone live feed.

I'm digressing here, but the point is that theres this whole pile of stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with music, the stuff that can make you weep, sing, move, have a conversation with the universe, or transport you where no drug can.

Gruntersdad says is best, that music and life is a lot more than a bank balance.

Ryukyu
10-07-2007, 06:22 PM
If I understand where you guys correctly, this conundrum takes place at all levels.
It even affects the cover bands that play the local club circuits. The ones that play what they think is challenging and musical, are the ones that don't work a lot. At least around here.
All of the successful bands, again I'm talking here locally, play what the crowds that come out to see them want to hear.
What I've been able to do is to find some interesting variations of things to put into songs that most people wouldn't notice, but it keeps me involved with the music so it doesn't get too mundane. After all, how many times can you play Brick House without going into a coma.
My point is that with some compromise, the two can exist to a certain extent. Probably not what a lot of musicians would want, but there are those that it can work for.

Drummer Karl
10-07-2007, 06:24 PM
Zappafan.......this has to be the account of my drum teacher because this was what we discussed last week. Maybe unbelievable but true. :-)
Well, the big issue: How important is technique.

My drum teacher tought and told me and that is also my opinion that technique is just like a tool box or a key for a door which is called sound and playing. That is for me the importance of technique.

How can I get my sound? Surely with my will, creativity...also with technique. You might laugh but my drum teacher just said: "When I see Steve Gadd I`m so sorry for his orthopedic specialist just ´cause he sits on his kit like wreck." His next sentence was: "And???????? He sounds awesome...and he may sound not so great with a proper sitting position."
Or Bill Stewart`s left hand matched grip. Some technical guys will maybe puke and I`m sure (and sooo is my drum teacher) that it can`t be developed but for certain situation it got my favourite one!

Just two examples.

I had a phase when I was such a big Weckl fan and also a big fan of playing with "perfect" technique. It tought me a lesson: I didn`t get any sound and soul and luckily I noticed that quickly enough and threw that over board.

Then again it is important to teach for example a beginner basic and good techinque and I have to say that my teacher DID a good job but it develops and I discovered some strange ways of holding a stick over time...but just to get the sound I wanna have...on the big search for my sound. And he accepts it.

And purely playing-wise: If the music needs it and it fits, play technical stuff and learn the hardest licks on earth but if you can`t stand it inside yourself...it won`t please anybody.

As I said, technique is a tool or key for me, to open doors, to get my sound...and to develop. But it`s not something I would ever rely on on stage.

Just my $0.002

PS: I`ll simply ignore that Jazz-guys comment. ;-)

Karl

That Guy
10-07-2007, 06:45 PM
Yeah, sorry to hear that, TG,but thats a recurring theme, and lots of us have been wounded in this battle.

I've been in and out of the music biz, and I've seen the machine work at close quarters. The fact is, the business has very little to do with music.

Sure, you'll get a smashing Pumpkins, or an Opeth, or U2 or whatever, just as easily as you might a Norah Jones or a Joshua Redman, or a Wynton Marsailes, but these are the very, very few lucky ones.

Yes sir. You have probably had more experience concerning the interwoven skematic of the way this business works from the inside. I only had my heart broke by it.

I found it really sad when it came to understanding what it really takes to get a company behind you. Pretty much, like you said.. your band doesn't matter. Its all about the numbers lining up, risk factors being profitable, demographic timing, making sure there is a definate 300% kick-back (NO JOKE, thats the average expectancy) for what is spent... it goes on and on. Only if arteries line up and the money flows correctly without any hiccups will a company begin to *think* about investing in you. Then, they draw up a way to make it profitable for themselves (usual photocopy contract thats been done before) and pitch a investment offer to you. Its usually the scummy dross of offers.. especially if you don't have a good manager, lawyer ect. Sadly, many bands and artists have been raped by this initial offer. Remember T.L.C.? It used to be, a band could get a good portion of the merchandising profits, but the powers that be began to see that and put another clause in the contract towards it.

Its a really sad buisiness.. but some are just EXTREMELY lucky to get in. Usually there is a so-called form of selling out if a deal is taken. I can count on 1 hand the bands that admit that they stayed 100% true to themselves. Sacrafices were needed in order to make the money flow. After all, thats why they call it a record deal. Its an agreement between 2 parties and sacrafices and adaptions are needed to make it work. Its a shame that most bands don't realize that the sacrafices and adaptions usually only benefit the investor and only later do they realize that. *bad memories*

Steamer
10-07-2007, 07:52 PM
.

Music for the general public is not about technique. It's about what you hear and how it moves you. Whether it makes you want to grab a beer (AC/DC), or make you waI'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a secondnt to sit back and relax (Bach).


That is all.... :)

Peace.


Well I'll give you some first hand insight from a so called 'arrogant jazz dude".

I'm a working professional jazz musician who has sacrificed more than you will ever imagine to keep my love of jazz drumming/jazz music alive and well at closing in on 50 on a professional,personal,money front than you will ever know. I'm commited to playing jazz and being a true blue jazz drummer because it's my life I breath it every day and your level of disrespect in that regard is truly offensive IMHO You are so dead off with your comments lacking any real understanding of the bigger musical/life experience picture that i'm afraid there is not the time in this life for me to correct your current chain of thought or lack thereof. Enough said...

Steamer
10-07-2007, 08:01 PM
Curious, besides the one ill considered thread, who are these legions of tech head drummers you observe slamming every famous drummer under the sun? For instance when I'm scouring youtube, the primary contentious tech heads aren't jazz guys, but that small handful of the metal crowd who make their lists of greatest tech drummers then scream the words jazz snob when they can't articulate their opinion.



Now I'm certainly not going to slam Lars U, because that's not where I'm going here. But if you really believe in a million years that Max Roach, Tony Williams or Elvin Jones gave a rip about any of things you mentioned here then you're wrong. Now by me telling you that you're wrong, does that make a snob? If I decide to correct you about the true nature of Bach's music, does that make me a snob?



Straight up man, the most arrogant thing in the world is to inform someone about what music actually is instead of simply stating that it's your opinion, based on any number of other factors. And to follow up that arrogance with a largely discounted stereotype /jazz guys in trashy bars etc.../ as some kind of supposedly clever poke, is also arrogant.

I've said this before but it bears repeating. This jazzsnob angle that some use when they want to strike out at something but can't quite figure out how to do it is long past old. If you want to make your true point, do it. Just make sure it's actaully a point, and not a veiled stereotype substituting for the real thing.

Honestly, I need to find this deserted island where all these evil jazzsnobs come from.

Oh ya and what he said. Bravo!!!.

Steamer
10-07-2007, 08:08 PM
.

My wife asked me to take out the part about the arrogant jazz players here, but I believe it is the truth, so I'm leaving it in.


.


You should have listened to your wife's advice since she seems more in touch with reality than you LOL!

Truly sad...

DogBreath
10-07-2007, 09:15 PM
I'll take playing snare on 2 and 4 in front of 30,000 screaming fans over being able to do a right foot clave while playing 13/3 time with my left hand in front of 7 drunks in a bar.
Really? You'd rather have thousands of screaming fans than highly developed technical ability? Huh. I guess it takes all kinds. Me, I'd take the the 7 drunks, especially if they showed up to see a drummer that they truly appreciated, and they stayed long enough to get drunk while I put on the best show I could for my devoted fans. Maybe for you it's more about the adulation and less about the drumming.

danander11
10-07-2007, 09:18 PM
One of the advantages to getting older is that I've found that I worry less about what is wrong with the world, and concentrate more on what is wrong with me...

That is especially true with my playing. I played for about 15 years.. then walked away from it for almost as long.. Now, I am back playing and taking more enjoyment out of it than I ever have.. and my playing is moving through all of the roadblocks I had set up earlier...

Not everything I do is going to please everyone, but I do try to make sure that it pleases me.

DogBreath
10-07-2007, 09:27 PM
One of the advantages to getting older is that I've found that I worry less about what is wrong with the world, and concentrate more on what is wrong with me...
Danander for the win.

mattsmith
10-07-2007, 09:36 PM
Really? You'd rather have thousands of screaming fans than highly developed technical ability? Huh. I guess it takes all kinds. Me, I'd take the the 7 drunks, especially if they showed up to see a drummer that they truly appreciated, and they stayed long enough to get drunk while I put on the best show I could for my devoted fans. Maybe for you it's more about the adulation and less about the drumming.

Exactly, I look at my old man all the time knowing he could have been a millionaire several times over with the people he knows and the opportunities he's had, especially as a conductor and producer. But he walks away from that almost every time to stay right with the music, because he thinks there are things in life more important than personal comfort and a lot of foolish applause that's forgotten about the next day. When I was a little kid I used to get mad at him for turning down all that sell out cash. But as I've gotten older I understand now what the whole thing's all about, knowing that stuff usually straightens itself out in the end.

Zappafan huh? Well of course you know there's two kinds of those.

1.The kind who see him as the misunderstood genius who created great music underground and sealed all that around a cynical cloak of pop music that was a brilliant indictment of the very musicians you admire. This is the one most jazz musicians place on the highest step.

2. The kind who see Don't Eat Yellow Snow as a Wierd Al deal, keep Take Me to the Beach on their Ipod, and are mad when all that instrumental music in Gregory Peccary covers up the singing pig.

I'm sorta betting #1 doesn't resonate.

bballdrummer34
10-07-2007, 09:38 PM
Arrogant jazz players ... I think people say that before they know who Tony Williams is. It's all music ladies and gentlemen.

Steamer
10-07-2007, 09:53 PM
Arrogant jazz players ... I think people say that before they know who Tony Williams is. It's all music ladies and gentlemen.


It's also about being humble, having respect for other musicians or music and always having an open mind and wanting to always learn, improve and better yourself as a musician regardless of what type of music floats your boat. Percieved or actual arrogance and snobery are the property of the uneducated or narrow mined folk that walk the same planet as the rest of us IMO.

Jon Cable
10-08-2007, 01:18 AM
Really? You'd rather have thousands of screaming fans than highly developed technical ability? Huh. I guess it takes all kinds. Me, I'd take the the 7 drunks, especially if they showed up to see a drummer that they truly appreciated, and they stayed long enough to get drunk while I put on the best show I could for my devoted fans. Maybe for you it's more about the adulation and less about the drumming.
DB, Im real sorry but I only started playing so I could get rich and famous....and thats STILL why I play! No offence to the guys who 'live for the music' but thats a real nice position to be in if ya can afford it! Why wouldn't one take the $$$$ offered?
I did a country album of Beatles covers [dont ask] with a band a few years ago and the fat fee more than salved my conscience.
I know I'm coming across as the big mercenary but the only person who feeds my family is me, doesn't it make more sense to sellout and then be a higher being!! And MattSmith; much respect to your Dad for being so principled, I know I ain't got the moral fibre.

KzSgDrummer
10-08-2007, 01:50 AM
doesn't it make more sense to sellout and then be a higher being!!

It doesn't work that way!!

Bud: "..you gotta get to the big time first, then you can be a pillar and do good things."
Lou: "You can't get a little bit pregnant, Bud."
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Wall-Street.html

michael drums
10-08-2007, 02:26 AM
Alright boys and girls, here I go.

I've read in many threads the importance of technique and have read many threads that critique famous drummers technical drumming or lack thereof.

Music for the general public is not about technique. It's about what you hear and how it moves you. Whether it makes you want to grab a beer (AC/DC), or make you want to sit back and relax (Bach).

I understand that technique is important, but to hear the absolute blathering on how bad the technique and skills of everyone from Lars to Portnoy is absolutely ridiculous. Not everyone is Dave Weckl nor do they want to be, although I'm sure I can find stuff here about his skill or lack thereof. You cannot please everyone all the time. I understand that, but c'mon.

Many people on this forum have a great amount of skill. I've watched and heard the vids and clips. But there is a lot of arrogance as well. Not everyone loves to play a clave in 21/17 time or wants to listen to it for that matter.

My point - why do so many guys bash the pros on lack of skill or technique? I'll take playing snare on 2 and 4 in front of 30,000 screaming fans over being able to do a right foot clave while playing 13/3 time with my left hand in front of 7 drunks in a bar.

I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second.

My wife asked me to take out the part about the arrogant jazz players here, but I believe it is the truth, so I'm leaving it in.

That is all.... :)

Peace.

Yea, zappa. I agree with that whole-heartedly. As much as I LOVE DW, I've never understood the amount of "negatives" thrown out at the "successful" professional drummers here, on DW.

I don't know if it's jealousy, actual bad instances meeting them personally, not liking the genre of music they play, or what?

Isn't it more productive to point out the good traits of a certain drummer then to try and "split hairs" about what YOU may believe is not particularly what you find "talented" about him/her?

Point is...let's take a more positive approach and "dance on egg-shells", when describing the pro drummer. They've earned the respect they deserve...


Peace! ;-)

caprisun3484
10-08-2007, 02:27 AM
you should really ask yourself, zappafan (which is ironic in itself), why you do music


but i do agree that we should take it easy on Travis, Joey, Lars and others they're just working can't really blame them. They put money in very high regard.

mattsmith
10-08-2007, 03:01 AM
you should really ask yourself, zappafan (which is ironic in itself), why you do music

Yeah this was the part I just didn't get. Zappa intentionally stayed away from the big money just to make a point about integrity, and actually punked those who didn't do it his way.

but i do agree that we should take it easy on Travis, Joey, Lars and others they're just working can't really blame them. They put money in very high regard

With the exception of youtube trolls, who are special cases, most times the slam is only a reaction to the incredibly dumb Travis, Joey, Lars fanboys who refuse to hear any opinion of their heroes, other than drop dead idol worship. 99% of the time, the negativity is really towards them while on the other hand the drum pros themselves get caught in the crossfire of the stupid argument that always follows.

Steamer
10-08-2007, 03:08 AM
Yea, zappa. I agree with that whole-heartedly. As much as I LOVE DW, I've never understood the amount of "negatives" thrown out at the "successful" professional drummers here, on DW.

I don't know if it's jealousy, actual bad instances meeting them personally, not liking the genre of music they play, or what?

Isn't it more productive to point out the good traits of a certain drummer then to try and "split hairs" about what YOU may believe is not particularly what you find "talented" about him/her?

Point is...let's take a more positive approach and "dance on egg-shells", when describing the pro drummer. They've earned the respect they deserve...


Peace! ;-)


Well i'm still not sure what you are agreeing with in his insulting post IMO since me and the rest of my desert island motley crew of "arrogant jazz dudes" don't spend all there days on forums putting down other drummers playing in different styles or bands or feeling jealous of them or lashing out at them. Got better things to do with my time like to continue to learn and understand new musical challenges always presented to me and always thinking of different ways of how to continually improve as a musician and drummer in the context band than sling mud at other drummers.

The only thing i'm guilty of was recently pointing out that a certain well known prog rock drummer in his past glory had very irregular time constantly rushing then slowing down well playing time. I still stand by that comment since it's very true and not directed as a unrealistic comment just an accurate observation made by me and several of my peers as a constructive observation. We all need to work on our playing and remain humble and keep our ego in check and be realistic with our skills or we stay in the same place and never improve as a player famous or not experience has taught me.

DogBreath
10-08-2007, 03:22 AM
As much as I LOVE DW, I've never understood the amount of "negatives" thrown out at the "successful" professional drummers here, on DW.


Lol. It always makes me laugh when people talk about this forum like it was the wild west or a room full of monkeys throwing filth at innocent bystanders. It's especially ironic when those comments come from the same people who accuse DW of being run by Big Brother. Seriously, make up your mind before you give me whiplash.

DB, Im real sorry but I only started playing so I could get rich and famous.... I know I'm coming across as the big mercenary but the only person who feeds my family is me.
Hey, it's cool. We all have those types of choices to make. I would sell my blood to take care of my family, but I wouldn't say that I'd prefer to sell my blood than get a paycheck for playing highly skilled drumming for a small room of people. The point is that when you don't have a choice, you do what you have to do. When I quoted Zappafan he was talking about prefering to have thousands of screaming fans for playing begginer rudiments rather than having advanced skill but far fewer fans. He wasn't talking about putting food on his child's plate.

That Guy
10-08-2007, 04:14 AM
Well i'm still not sure what you are agreeing with in his insulting post IMO since me and the rest of my desert island motley crew of "arrogant jazz dudes"

Motley Crue RULEZ!! Tommy Lee is the best EVER!!

Colonel Bat Guano
10-08-2007, 06:21 AM
Perceived Snobbery, Reverse Snobbery, Actual Snobbery, Selling Out... I have a hard enough time remembering the songs in my band to make judgments on other players' motivations. But for the record, I wouldn't mind being Lars Ulrich. That would mean that my girlfriend would be Connie Neilsen.

...

Jon Cable
10-08-2007, 11:28 AM
Biggest problem as I see it is that the guys who are famous aren't necessarily the best technical players; if you ask a 'civilian' to name drummers you're lucky if they know 3 or 4 guys, and they'd be the ones that catch the most flak from this group of monkeys!! [wise words DB, LOL!!]
It depends on your personal motivations; most of us want to be as good as we can get at drums, given restricted practice time, ability, family pressures etc and when we see/hear someone who is obviously not particularly great on drums and who is making millions, its only natural to be a little resentful.
Also, the guys making the big bucks have to be aware that, as a natural consequence, they are gonna get some criticism; constructive or otherwise. I feel glad for anyone who can make their living out of doing what they love, whatever that is, they are very lucky people.

aydee
10-08-2007, 12:08 PM
Wow, Zappafan, you sure stirred up a hornets nest! Though I'm glad it has stirred up some passionate reactions which are fun to read.

People's inner feelings about something as personal as music always interest me.

Don't know if you intended to or not, but I think mistake was in trying to define music, or worse, define successful music, and what it means to people.

Thats a huge can of worms!

What it means to a 15 year old in his first school band, what it means to guys who wished they had pro careers but somehow failed in that pursuit, guys for whom it is a weekend release from other life choices they had to make, and indeed guys who are playing music they hate, in the hope that they can soon put down a mortgage.... ..etc.

Also, going through the responses you got, it has meant a heartbreak for TG, its an honest livelihood for Steamer , its an uncompromised commitment for Matt Smith and Karl, its frustration for me, exhilaration for jon '..and so on...

On the subject of music itself, you have Philip Glass' 20 Minutes of Silence' as a celebrated composition on one hand and Mastadon's 'Blood Mountain' on the other.
Both successful in their intention. Whatever that may have been...no judgments here.

So what are we talking about? Money? Soul satisfaction? Celebrity? the Truth? Skill? Lack thereof ?

Nothing and Everything.

For me, success and musical greatness will always be two different things,...only sometimes, very rarely, overlapping like a solar eclipse.

Jeff Almeyda
10-08-2007, 12:30 PM
How could someone with the name "Zappafan" post anything like what you did? Frank would tear you a new one and ask you to return his records.

Honestly, do you think the man that stood against the onslaught of commercialism would agree with the following quote taken from your post?

"I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second."

Do you think that Frank would leave his "crappy" gig to play with Metallica?

Please change your screen name to something like "PortnoyRULEZ".

BTW, Lars technique is lousy. You don't even need to be a jazz guy to see that.

NUTHA JASON
10-08-2007, 12:57 PM
BTW, Lars technique is lousy. You don't even need to be a jazz guy to see that.


yep, you just have to look at how he sets up his kit. creative in his genre though...once upon a time.

good thread.

for me its all about making money while enjoying the drums and working towards a skill that is respectable and hopefully even a little ground breaking some day. to make a career out of a hobby.

i hope i can play to 30 000 screaming fans now and then as i age turn into a jazz snob like popular cheddar is to a great parmesan

j

abe
10-08-2007, 01:18 PM
Being jazzsnob or croud pleaser is conscious choice. And since when one or another is bad choice?

I learn to play jazz but I appriciate tight simple grooves and I would like to do it very good as well.

There is too things: criticism and bashing.
Though criticism can be subjective, critics usualy don't hate or disrespect player. They just express their thoughts about players approach to technique. I personaly try to be careful with techniqual criticism because of my limited experince. But I DO listen to critics; sometimes they can save you from problems. Just because someone, who is very popular, plays in certain way, doesn't make his technique healthy or advisible for begginer. So when good critics make reasonable coments they can save players fans from tendonitis etc. That doesn't make drummers performance less valuable just you are more careful when copying him/her. And copying is thing that many young drummers do!

Bashing is always subjective because those who do that disrespect or even hate drummer and they usualy don't want to help anyone. They come to forums and say something like this: ''He would beat drummer X any time!'' or ''He can't play listen to this guy he has the best chops!'' I wouldn't say that jazz guys do it more often then metal or fusion fans.

Leadfoot
10-08-2007, 01:23 PM
I would take the dark, smoky bars, and the little cafes in my city or in any town/city in the world than some stadium filled with screaming morons.
Yes, a bar filled with drunk screaming morons is much better.

GRUNTERSDAD
10-08-2007, 01:57 PM
Making yourself a better player can in the long run make you more money, however making more money will never make you a better player.

NUTHA JASON
10-08-2007, 02:26 PM
unless it releases you from a day job and allows you to practice more.

j

ps:

There is too things: criticism and bashing.
Though criticism can be subjective, critics usualy don't hate or disrespect player. They just express their thoughts about players approach to technique. I personaly try to be careful with techniqual criticism because of my limited experince. But I DO listen to critics; sometimes they can save you from problems. Just because someone, who is very popular, plays in certain way, doesn't make his technique healthy or advisible for begginer. So when good critics make reasonable coments they can save players fans from tendonitis etc. That doesn't make drummers performance less valuable just you are more careful when copying him/her. And copying is thing that many young drummers do!

Bashing is always subjective because those who do that disrespect or even hate drummer and they usualy don't want to help anyone. They come to forums and say something like this: ''He would beat drummer X any time!'' or ''He can't play listen to this guy he has the best chops!'' I wouldn't say that jazz guys do it more often then metal or fusion fans.


very good post. i agree.

j

druid
10-08-2007, 03:12 PM
Really? You'd rather have thousands of screaming fans than highly developed technical ability? Huh. I guess it takes all kinds. Me, I'd take the the 7 drunks, especially if they showed up to see a drummer that they truly appreciated, and they stayed long enough to get drunk while I put on the best show I could for my devoted fans. Maybe for you it's more about the adulation and less about the drumming.

Exactly....I thought the same thing....I'd rather be able to improve my own playing..play well...know that I play well and have some sense of my own pride as an artist or performer...than just blindly accept "Hey I must be great...look 50,000 screaming people say so".....thinking like that gives us bands like KISS....who I loved when I was 12.

GRUNTERSDAD
10-08-2007, 04:15 PM
unless it releases you from a day job and allows you to practice more.

j

ps:


very good post. i agree.

j

True, and not to nit pick, but it is the practice that makes you better and not the money.

NUTHA JASON
10-08-2007, 04:30 PM
unless you believe in behaviourism as a learning theory.

smiles

j

brittc89
10-08-2007, 05:02 PM
Ill say flat out, I could care less about anyone who plays in sold arenas when they absolutely suck. I would much rather, any day of my life, go to a small little smokey club with some "arrogant jazz guy" than listen to some idiot who had a friend who wrote a pretty guitar riff and had another friend whos voice could be manipulated in the studio enough to make him almost seem like a good singer, so now they are all famous. There are people who play for the 30,000 fans and still can wail on their instrument. And there are people who can wail on the drums and never play for 250 people. I guess youre shooting for the maybe Ill get lucky and be able to sell my soul and try and play drums real good, but I would like to be good enough to try and tip the scales of luck in my favor.

P.S. Joey Jordison rulezzzz

michael drums
10-08-2007, 05:09 PM
Lol. It always makes me laugh when people talk about this forum like it was the wild west or a room full of monkeys throwing filth at innocent bystanders. It's especially ironic when those comments come from the same people who accuse DW of being run by Big Brother. Seriously, make up your mind before you give me whiplash.


Hey, it's cool. We all have those types of choices to make. I would sell my blood to take care of my family, but I wouldn't say that I'd prefer to sell my blood than get a paycheck for playing highly skilled drumming for a small room of people. The point is that when you don't have a choice, you do what you have to do. When I quoted Zappafan he was talking about prefering to have thousands of screaming fans for playing begginer rudiments rather than having advanced skill but far fewer fans. He wasn't talking about putting food on his child's plate.

WOAH, Dog...

You might wanna read my post again, buddy. Don't think I was giving DW a whiplash. Just some of the members that are always critiqueing the pro drummers as if they're in a position to do so.

And YES, Big Brother "may" wanna over-see the comments/critques made about the pro-drummers. The irony is NOT with me, DogBreath.

Like I've said numerous times before, I DO enjoy the DW site...but that doesn't mean I have to agree with some of the ways that it's run. And I say that with utmost respect to you and ALL the administrators of DW.

Though, I DO support freedom of speech...to a point.

Peace... ;-)

Breadmonkey
10-08-2007, 06:20 PM
I would take the dark, smoky bars, and the little cafes in my city or in any town/city in the world than some stadium filled with screaming morons.

The last part is superfluous and only lends creedence to the OPs point, whatever you're side of the argument.

As DB said it takes all kinds, some people are more empassioned and live in the now for the immediate gratification.
Others are the self-disciplined type who look at the bigger picture and are willing to work and wait for what they want.

I think there is a marked lack of respect from both sides (no one in particular, far be it from me to point the finger as the Lars Ulrich thread would show).

While I may not agree with the OP i think his sentiment of fostering a more respectful attitude has been lost in the feverish reaction to a somewhat clumsily written post.

We could all do with thicker skin and less knee-jerk reactions, myself especially. We all want the same thing here, more respect for the art of drumming, whether that's a kick-ass 4/4 or a bewildering and awe-inspiring display of technical ability or even some incomprihensible mess with incredible feel.

Different strokes for different folks, but when it comes down to it we all feel as passionate as eachother about our chosen instrument.

Hopefully I didn't come across badly in this post, am just trying to see both sides and maybe calm it down a little. If I've annoyed anyone then i apologise in advance.

aydee
10-08-2007, 06:27 PM
Different strokes for different folks, but when it comes down to it we all feel as passionate as each other about our chosen instrument.



Well said, BM!

2020202020202

zappafan
10-08-2007, 08:20 PM
OK.
Matt – it is my opinion of what this music does for me. I did not mean to say this is what it is for everyone with regards to the ACDC/Bach types of music. Words on paper sometimes cannot put thru the way in which something was stated. I understand the reason for that comment. Second, there is a thread I saw a while back stating something to the effect that Ringo cannot play a clave better than me (yes, someone wrote something like that referring to himself. My guess is that it was a jazz dude, not a heavy metal dude). Perhaps I am mistaken. This guy is a moron – that is an opinion. How’s anyone to know what Ringo can or cannot play.. This fool (yes, to me he is a fool) for even suggesting that. This guy will likely only play with himself and nothing more.
I don’t know what Tony Williams would think. I have never asked him. Have you?
I’ll ask you – decide : Porsches and mansions or the city bus and a roach filled apartment?
Correct me all you like about Bach – the only one who could interpret correctly what he meant is him, not me or you. I’d gladly listen to your opinion, though.

Gruntersdad :

So the masses take 2 and 4 – what is the problem with that? You can critique any one you want. Go for it. My point was that the pros who make a handsome living at it seem to get it pretty bad from those who likely wish they could make a great living at it, good, bad or indifferent. You’ve met jazz performers…….I’ve met good doctors, bad ones, great electricians, lousy ones etc. What is your point? There is good and bad in every field of life. I don’t recall saying every jazz player is a stuck up snob.
You say music and life is about more than the size of one’s bank book. Perhaps. To you. If it’s your JOB, don’t you want to be paid for it? Do you work for free?

Karl – cool man. I hear what you are sayin’.

Steamer – don’t you think you are being a little hard on the Beaver. J
You sacrificed this and that. That is your mistake, imo not mine. Lars and Portnoy chose the other route. Whos’ right? Who’s the more intelligent one?

DogBreath – in a heartbeat. Now, c’mon, tell me, the Who asks you to play instead of Ringo’s son on the tour. You gonna say no????

Erik Lund
10-08-2007, 08:35 PM
I figured I would pause from eating my cavier-laden lobster and Crystal and come down to your peoples' level and "get real" or whatever it is the peasants are saying these days.

If a guy is playing in front of 30,000 he's doing something right. Maybe it's his no-frills tight playing or the fact that his hair looks "cool". But it's something.

People keep throwing "jazzsnob" at me (actually in college I was known to everyone, including the professors, as "jazz antichrist") and yet some of my favorite live music right now is Sigur Ros. The drumming is *not* anything fancy or complicated - it's just perfect for the songs (which are perfect too). I'm actually trying to put together something along those lines with some elements of other not-very-complicated bands. Why? Because I like the music.

I'll see drummers playing jazz in front of 6 people and sometimes, I'll think that's 6 people too much. They teach jazz in schools now, so now you have all these people who are trying to play jazz and mimicking (sp?) or just didn't study enough but think they're good enough to play out. I've been called a "snob" in these situations by my friends, 'cause when they ask me, I'll tell them honestly what I think about it. "Oh well you're a snob" - but they're smiling. I'm not going up to the guys and saying "You guys suck"

Sometimes you're lucky and get some good players. Was at a wedding last night and the band was good. Really good (quartet - the sax player was the weak link but the rhythm section was *bad*. And not to say he wasn't good, but not quite on their level) They looked like they could play right from the get go. Then they backed it up. The 150 people there didn't think twice about it though. Couldn't care. Too busy acting fancy and stuck up and trying to figure out which fork to use for the ravioli. At least I got to hear some great music for 2 sets.

These debates always seem to get silly, since I can't think of anyone playing in front of 30,000 people who I think is terrible. I actually think it's great seeing different drummers' playing styles - you can tell who has formal training and such, or whether he started playing with his friends - that kinda thing - and I like seeing their playing. I'm sort of in love with this drummer in this all girl band that plays downtown a lot, and she's self-taught and limited in terms of technique but there are certain things she plays that I wouldn't think to do and I am just smiling (and smitten...she's so cute)

I don't want to turn into a pixiestick post, but isn't the smiling what's important? If some technically limited drummer can supply the beats for an enjoyable night, I could care less. I'm not gonna say "Hold on a sec baby - I gotta go backstage and have a paradiddle competition with that guy"


And I'm back to my Crystal.

zappafan
10-08-2007, 08:42 PM
Mattsmith (round 2)
Something wrong with liking Apstrophe, Overnite Sensation. Hot Rats? I’m aware the Grand Wazoo and others are brilliant jazz albums and I happen to love that album as well. I am aware he was misunderstood as you put it. Who cares? I love his music and he can be a one armed guitar player who can’t read for all I could give a …..He is awesome and to me one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century. I don’t care why. I just know what I like.

Bball – again, did I say all jazz dudes are arrogant?

Jon – thanks bro. I am getting ganged up on…..lol! I do however, respect all opinions. That’s what they are. There opinions. We don’t all have to agree. Let’s just play nice.

Michael – thanks. That is what I was trying to get at. (although not very well, I see)…I couldn’t have put it better. Wait, I didn’t, you did..lol

Caprisan – I do it ‘cause it’s fun, period. I'm not interested in changing the world.
Mattsmith – have you seen Zappa’s house? The one with the amazing studio in the basement? He had no need to go to the food bank any time. Granted, he may have been able to make more, but nonetheless he was wanting for nothing.

DogBreath - “thousands of fans for playing beginner rudiments” – that is absolutely what I was talking about..That, bro is arrogance at it’s best. Just because someone chooses to play those so called beginner rudiments over the complex one’s, does that make them any less of a drummer. I sure as heck can’t do any 11/8 time…so? I guess you are a far better man than I.

Colonel – thanks – great point about his sweetie. Although, DogBreath and others here will take the ugly drunk woman who just finished tossing her cookies in the corner of said smoky bar over Connie apparently. Again, personal choice

Erik Lund
10-08-2007, 09:05 PM
I'm trying to combine both my avant garde stuff with some pop sensibilities. I figure I will have my cake and eat it too (with the lobster and Crystal of course). I want to make enough money to be comfortable, but you know, there's some comfy digs in the 1,000,000 dollar range too. Why settle for the Lazy Boy?

I totally love that you called me Colonel - must have checked out the myspace page! That'll cost you 30,000 dollars. (It's on a trust-system)

zappafan
10-08-2007, 09:07 PM
Jon – round 2
I’ll agree with you as well on post 31. Everything. I’m not that technical, I guess and yes, I need to work on that (as well as the rest of my drumming…lol). The pros are subject to lots of crap. I’d love to see Lars come on here and simply say: “ I have crap technique, my fills are boring, I can’t keep time for the life of me….but I’m in Metallica and you’re not”.

Jeff – wow, you know Frank? Cool. You know what he would have said to me?? Awesome. Frank wasn’t the one commenting on Lars’ lousy technique. It was the half wit who plays in his basement every day. Frank’s gig, imo wasn’t too crappy. He performed for many, many thousands of people. Check out Live In New York, bro.

Canyonbuilder – that’sad. Really pathetic, imo. Bars over stadiums…………

Abe – I didn’t say any choice was bad. To me one is the no brainer, to you , perhaps the other is. I hear what you are saying in the second paragraph. It does seem to me, right or wrong that the constructive criticism is more than just that. There seems to be much jealousy towards some of these pros and it’s like you are looking for something, anything to point out that is negative.

Leadfoot – my point exactly.

Nutha – hold on. We agree..lol on your post 39. Uh oh…..lol

Druid – I’d love to improve my playing as well. Although, whose to say that the last part of your statement applies to all pros. About them saying they must be great..etc. Now I don’t doubt for one second that some may feel that way.

Britt89 – to you they may suck. Your opinion. You’d opt for the crappy little club…..until you’re asked to join ACDC. (hypothetical band and example) for a stadium tour. Btw – that ain’t about to happen, I don’t believe.

Breadmomkey – thanks, I think. OK, clumsily written…lol You are right, but at least you and a couple others get what I was trying to say. Key word “trying”

Thanks for your comments, good, bad or indifferent to mine.

Peace.

Erik Lund
10-08-2007, 09:07 PM
Oh, and I must be some kind of jazz snob - I'm apparently the only one who likes/knows Mark Sanders! (just thought I'd take a swipe at everyone in this thread...)

mattsmith
10-08-2007, 09:09 PM
OK.
Matt – it is my opinion of what this music does for me. I did not mean to say this is what it is for everyone with regards to the ACDC/Bach types of music.

Great man, except you tried to say what music was. Reread your post.

Words on paper sometimes cannot put thru the way in which something was stated. I understand the reason for that comment. Second, there is a thread I saw a while back stating something to the effect that Ringo cannot play a clave better than me (yes, someone wrote something like that referring to himself. My guess is that it was a jazz dude, not a heavy metal dude).

I'll ask it again man. What jazz musician took your lunch money when you were a kid?... because you've got issues here. Your bitterness couldn't be more apparent.


Perhaps I am mistaken. This guy is a moron – that is an opinion. How’s anyone to know what Ringo can or cannot play.. This fool (yes, to me he is a fool) for even suggesting that. This guy will likely only play with himself and nothing more.


Yep, moron it is. They came in all shapes and sizes. But great how you went with it anyway even though you knew that. But really is it not OK just to ask out of curiosity if Ringo can do that?


I don’t know what Tony Williams would think. I have never asked him. Have you?


Nope, not with Tony Williams, but yes to Max Roach and Elvin Jones. But Tony Williams used to have dinner at my house to see Mom and Dad when he came to town on tours. Of course I was too young at the time and he was dead before I was even in school. Look if you want to play this little stunt with the name dropping you will absolutely lose. I'm sorry that you don't get it about musicians having money scruples. But that's your problem not mine. I absolutely know what they said and you absolutely don't. Anything else here?

I’ll ask you – decide : Porsches and mansions or the city bus and a roach filled apartment?
Wrong question there man because it's based on your ridiculous stereotypes. But our family lives by our decisions and believe that certain questions are settled in the hereafter. In fact your observation here is the saddest of all. Don't keep pounding me because you want to sell out. Be comfortable with your choices. You're the adult here right?

Correct me all you like about Bach – the only one who could interpret correctly what he meant is him, not me or you. I’d gladly listen to your opinion, though.


You do know there are these books where he explains this/Bach that is/. You do know it's not a guess. And again, go back and read your own post. I just love it when a guy who thinks he's being clever, sets a fire, then wants to clarify and reinterpret after the flames are already over the house. Classic

Jon Cable
10-08-2007, 09:15 PM
Mattsmith – have you seen Zappa’s house? The one with the amazing studio in the basement? He had no need to go to the food bank any time. Granted, he may have been able to make more, but nonetheless he was wanting for nothing.

So did Frank sell out? If you only make $50million instead of $250million can you be regarded as true to your art? Should WFD be the ultimate accolade as the player has dedicated himself exclusively to his particular skill? Is Joey J the greatest because he's sold kazillions? Does Erik L feel dirty when he mixes with the mortals? Do jazz drummers have more skill, or just higher blood pressure?
We all play cos we love it, apparently for various reasons. I dont wanna be JoJo [12 hours a day practice] I'm extremely happy being JonJon [less than 12hours a day...considerably] but lets be frank; if we could get a drumming job that was acceptable, not our dream but we can handle it and it pays the same as the day job.....wouldn't most of us accept a little compromise??
I'm sure that the 'smoky bar' members would just retreat to their garrets and refuse to touch the dirty thing, but in the real world......Ya know its a good thread when DB gets involved, and even li'l old Nutha....wow!! Wheres Bernhard?? Hasn't anyone been rude about Ringo yet???? LMBFAO!

zappafan
10-08-2007, 09:30 PM
Jon - yer killin' me here...LOL Eric has me busting a gut and my side now hurts from laughing sooooo much.

matt - you seem to be a little uptight......no one ever took my lunch btw. Thanx for caring, though.

Peace.

Erik Lund
10-08-2007, 09:48 PM
"Does Erik L feel dirty when he mixes with the mortals?"

If you must know, yes.

But I will use any excuse to get in my platinum tub for a milk bath.

Jeff Almeyda
10-08-2007, 09:53 PM
If you are saying that great technique doesn't necessarily make a great drummer, OK.

But, is it ok for there to be NO value judgement outside of popularity for those who decide to make drumming their passion and life's work? In other words, is Phil Rudd just as valid a player as Terry Bozzio? I say no.

But Phil has played in front of more people than Terry has. AC/DC is bigger than any band Terry was ever in, and Phil probably has a bigger bank account.

By the measure of popularity or "whatever makes you happy" Phil is just as valid as Terry.

But, even Phil himself would probably say that he was no Terry Bozzio. So there is something else at work here. Something deeper than popularity OR technique. It is the mindset of a musician who has devoted himself to maximizing his God-given potential REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD IS DOING.

THAT is what I respect. Not the fact that someone makes good money off of their music. If that's the case then Britney Spears should be considered valid.

If someone is bashing a guy because they're jealous then that's pathetic. If someone has the balls to tell us that the emperor has no clothes, great.

Erik Lund
10-08-2007, 10:19 PM
"THAT is what I respect. Not the fact that someone makes good money off of their music. If that's the case then Britney Spears should be considered valid."


This is a thread killer but here goes:

Everything is valid.


Musicians got paid to play with her. Her existing has helped others' livelihoods. Okay, she's...a mess, but who cares? I don't. I don't like her music, I have no need for Brit, but she's here, and there are people who will get nostalgic 20 years from now when they access their brainPods' Brittney Spears tracks and remember they were 13 and locking braces with someone...

She's valid.


Fortunately for the musical exiles that I like, there are grants and stuff like that that can help. Ken Vandermark got a McArthur Genius Award grant and he put all that money into not only touring with people/projects he wanted to do, but also paid for other tours for people he respected. Just to be nice. I love that he did that.

There are so many great musicians that people don't know about - and it's a shame to me. (Horace Tapscott!!! The Dark Tree!) But I don't look badly at Brittney Spears for it. I look badly at her 'cause she's just a mess...but it doesn't affect me.

GRUNTERSDAD
10-08-2007, 10:25 PM
Gruntersdad :

So the masses take 2 and 4 – what is the problem with that? You can critique any one you want. Go for it. My point was that the pros who make a handsome living at it seem to get it pretty bad from those who likely wish they could make a great living at it, good, bad or indifferent. You’ve met jazz performers…….I’ve met good doctors, bad ones, great electricians, lousy ones etc. What is your point? There is good and bad in every field of life. I don’t recall saying every jazz player is a stuck up snob.
You say music and life is about more than the size of one’s bank book. Perhaps. To you. If it’s your JOB, don’t you want to be paid for it? Do you work for free?

Reply:
I don't remember saying, that you said every jazz player is a stuck up snob.
Again you are mixing ideas. LIFE is not just your job. Does that make it more clear.? Sure I want to be paid for my work and the job I do. And when the day is done and the rest of my Life begins, money won't make me happy. For someone who signs his posts with Peace, you sure seem hostile. You start your post with, "Well here I go...", and end it with
"my wife said to leave out that part" You came looking for an argument, you got one, most of the posters disagreed with you, so move on. I stand by my statement, that no matter how much money you make it wont make you a better drummer. You seem to not care about your skill and that you are only in it for the money. Drum on.
PEACE.

P.S. If I decide to criticize or critique a drummer, whether he be pro or not it will be just that. As long as I'm not doing a character assassination I feel I'm within my rights. And I am only defending an idea since I don't think in my 2000 plus posts I have bashed anyone.

abe
10-08-2007, 10:40 PM
Abe – I didn’t say any choice was bad. To me one is the no brainer, to you , perhaps the other is. I hear what you are saying in the second paragraph. It does seem to me, right or wrong that the constructive criticism is more than just that. There seems to be much jealousy towards some of these pros and it’s like you are looking for something, anything to point out that is negative.

Oh I didn't say that you said that. It was rhetorical question. I do respect many different players and as I said I would love to play like those guys who can keep just a simple groove and make it groove. I don't strive for technique. I want to perform music. So I guess we agree at some points.

Last sentence is bit confussing. I'm not living in States and English is my second language(you probably noticed that from my post) So could you please explain: do you think I'm ''looking for something, anything to point out that is negative''? Sorryt for bit stupid question but my english interpretation aren't perfect at all :(

zappafan
10-08-2007, 10:44 PM
Gruntersdad :

So the masses take 2 and 4 – what is the problem with that? You can critique any one you want. Go for it. My point was that the pros who make a handsome living at it seem to get it pretty bad from those who likely wish they could make a great living at it, good, bad or indifferent. You’ve met jazz performers…….I’ve met good doctors, bad ones, great electricians, lousy ones etc. What is your point? There is good and bad in every field of life. I don’t recall saying every jazz player is a stuck up snob.
You say music and life is about more than the size of one’s bank book. Perhaps. To you. If it’s your JOB, don’t you want to be paid for it? Do you work for free?

Reply:
I don't remember saying, that you said every jazz player is a stuck up snob.
Again you are mixing ideas. LIFE is not just your job. Does that make it more clear.? Sure I want to be paid for my work and the job I do. And when the day is done and the rest of my Life begins, money won't make me happy. For someone who signs his posts with Peace, you sure seem hostile. You start your post with, "Well here I go...", and end it with
"my wife said to leave out that part" You came looking for an argument, you got one, most of the posters disagreed with you, so move on. I stand by my statement, that no matter how much money you make it wont make you a better drummer. You seem to not care about your skill and that you are only in it for the money. Drum on.
PEACE.

P.S. If I decide to criticize or critique a drummer, whether he be pro or not it will be just that. As long as I'm not doing a character assassination I feel I'm within my rights. And I am only defending an idea since I don't think in my 2000 plus posts I have bashed anyone.


You are far to serious, and I shall move on when I am ready to...This your forum? People disagree with me.....oh.....nooooooooooooo.
Does that make them right? Or perhaps they are all wrong and the “few” who agreed are right. These are opinions, not arguments. I don’t agree with you. We agree to disagree. I left the last part in because I believed it just like you believe the stuff that you say. Is it ok that everyone does not agree with you? Evidently not. Chill man. Life certainly is not just your job. I agree (now we are getting’ somewhere). “Well here I go” is just a figure of speech. Man, you take every single word so literally, it’s quite comical to say the least.
Like I said, critique who you like, but I feel that some critiques ARE character assassinations.
Now you get into this total nonsense…”when I am laid to rest”……….I mean, really. I asked why some dudes are so hard on the pros and you are waiting to die and telling the world you have lived a wonderful life and you care not for money. I’m about to lose my Pad Thai and Cantonese Chow Mein……….
BTW I will make no money at any time soon drumming. I am fully aware of that nor do I care. I do it ‘cause it’s fun….and chicks dig drummers…lol Now, please, don’t tell me I should drum for the betterment of society etc…….you play for you , I’ll play for me.

Peace and Love.

mattsmith
10-08-2007, 10:54 PM
wouldn't most of us accept a little compromise??


Of course they would Jon. Great players go with Sting all the time with precisely that in mind. He's a solid performer and a crack businessman, who approaches commercial angles without always selling out. It doesn't have to be Coltrane incarnate every time. In my first years in the business, I will gladly accept any musical styled group that approaches their gig with integrity. In fact I know of no jazz musician who doesn't see it that way.

Actually, when you look at those musicians who play in the dark, behind the name performer, they're almost always jazz musicians, which makes this whole jazz snob angle so naive and hilarious. Come on let's put this out on the table for what it is. A person wants a gig, can't cut it, doesn't get the gig, then blames the mean jazz musician for all his problems. I think we've spent far too much time here trying to make this anything other than what it really is.

To judge your entire musical perspective on head counts, venue sizes and exclusively the bank book, while just assuming that everyone else with any sense sees it the same as you is plain delusional and it always leads to bad stuff. Just watch those VH1 Behind the Music deals. The guys who see it Zappafan's way almost always end up the same way, mostly because they got into music for the wrong reasons. And what's always especially interesting is how they never get it.

Naw, Zappafan made some very authoritative statements upfront in a very black and white manner, never thought to consider all the other shades, made his bitterness and inferiority complex about jazz musicians a public issue, and was genuinely surprised that the negative reaction came from so many different places.

Of course, you have to wonder if he now merely believes that all this negativity comes as a result of his selfless martyrdom as opposed to the actual foolishness it really is.

mattsmith
10-08-2007, 11:02 PM
Does that make them right? Or perhaps they are all wrong and the “few” who agreed are right. These are opinions, not arguments.

Actually yeah man, there are times when you discuss music when you can be 100% wrong. Sometimes it's not always just opinions. Quite often it's either right or its wrong. /straight up no compromise.

Sorry you don't see it that way. And don't set the fire then dictate if it's supposed to be an argument or not. That's not your call. You picked the fight. If you didn't want all that you could have clarified earlier.

zappafan
10-08-2007, 11:05 PM
Actually yeah man, there are times when you discuss music when you can be 100% wrong. Sometimes it's not always just opinions. Quite often it's either right or its wrong. /straight up no compromise.

Sorry you don't see it that way.

And only what you say is always right. Thanx for pointing that out.

zappafan
10-08-2007, 11:10 PM
Yes but you come here and insult people being both working musicians or not calling some of us like me "arrogant jazz dudes" offer no apology and in replies to members today confess complete ignorance to the facts of what you said and what you did. Did I make myself clear enough?.

Like I say i've got your # and not worth much of any of my precious time in a further juvenile debate with you. Live a little longer get some real life experience under your belt and we'll talk further.

How did I insult all working and non working musicians? I called some people (not all) arrogant. That is how I see it. I'm sorry I don't see it your way. I will not apologize if I believe my take on something is correct. You can tell me my drumming sucks.........I'll still sleep tonite. It's just not that big of a deal. I thought it would spark a little debate. That is all. It's drumming. We are not curing cancer. Let people agree and disagree.

Sound fair?

Steamer
10-08-2007, 11:17 PM
How did I insult all working and non working musicians? I called some people (not all) arrogant. That is how I see it. I'm sorry I don't see it your way. I will not apologize if I believe my take on something is correct. You can tell me my drumming sucks.........I'll still sleep tonite. It's just not that big of a deal. I thought it would spark a little debate. That is all. It's drumming. We are not curing cancer. Let people agree and disagree.

Sound fair?

Sorry no. Today you inferred in reply directed at me I was ignorant for not wanting to be a rich famous rock star drummer like the ones you listed instead being a fool for accomplishing my life dream of being a seasoned veteran jazz drummer with at this point a long productive career in music and doing nice money wise thank you very much. Remember that?. Like I say wake up and grow up...

mattsmith
10-08-2007, 11:22 PM
And only what you say is always right. Thanx for pointing that out.

Oh cry me a river.

Why not stop trying to get the last word and actually read the rebuttals. Then this pathetic
self inflicted exercise will go a little better for you.

Sorry no. Today you inferred in reply directed at me I was ignorant for not wanting to be a rich famous rock star drummer like the ones you listed instead being a fool for accomplishing my life dream of being a seasoned veteran jazz drummer with at this point a long productive career in music and doing nice money wise thank you very much. Remember that?. Like I say wake up and grow up...

Steamer, just let the guy stew man. You're obviously the better man. You evidently believe that practice and integrity gets you where you need to be and he wants the short cuts. Come on is anyone really under the illusion that this guy is going anywhere with music? If you're a true professional, then he's not worth your time.

Steamer
10-08-2007, 11:27 PM
Oh cry me a river.

Why not stop trying to get the last word and actually read the rebuttals. Then this pathetic
self inflicted exercise will go a little better for you.

Listen to Matt's sage words. Could save you further grief.

cnw60
10-09-2007, 12:16 AM
It seems this thread should be re-titled -

"lighten up on pro drummers guys, let's bash on each other instead."

My feeling about it is that the pros are the ones who are least concerned about whether or not they're getting bashed in an online forum by ten (or a hundred or even a thousand) posters. Anybody who makes a living playing music most likely has already endured ridicule and rejection first-hand a thousand times on their way to wherever they are today. The simple fact is that the music industry is brutal - if you want to begrudge Lars or Elvin (or Meg White for that matter) the decisions they've made along the way - IMO you're just wasting your own precious energy.

Regardless - this is a drummers forum and it makes perfect sense to me to analyze and criticize well known drummers for the strengths and weaknesses of their technique and to incorporate that knowledge in the quest to better understand our craft.

mattsmith
10-09-2007, 01:01 AM
matt - if you actually read any of my posts, you will note that I am not a good drummer, nor do I care. I do it for fun. This is the 4th time I've said this. I am howling with laughter because I have a "regular" job and have no delusions of "making it" in music. If you want to make it in jazz, good luck to you (no , I am not being sarcastic).



Oh give me a break. Yesterday you thought you were so enlightened. Now today you backpedal to the stone age, make a total fool of yourself, try to spin how all this was a big joke after you got your butt handed to you, then try to put a cherry on top by downsizing those who can do this for a living because you have a regular job. Don't you know that his evil 8/5 boss likes jazz, and that's the reason he comes to drum forums to punk people although he really doesn't care.

If you hadn't cared you would never have gone to all the trouble you did to make your point, then try to defend yourself. Even in my young life I can't count how many times I've seen a frustrated musician talk smack, get called on it, then try to spin that he was only punking the room. You're absolutely no different.

Go get a glass of water man. You need it.

michael drums
10-09-2007, 01:02 AM
It seems this thread should be re-titled -

"lighten up on pro drummers guys, let's bash on each other instead."

My feeling about it is that the pros are the ones who are least concerned about whether or not they're getting bashed in an online forum by ten (or a hundred or even a thousand) posters. Anybody who makes a living playing music most likely has already endured ridicule and rejection first-hand a thousand times on their way to wherever they are today. The simple fact is that the music industry is brutal - if you want to begrudge Lars or Elvin (or Meg White for that matter) the decisions they've made along the way - IMO you're just wasting your own precious energy.

Regardless - this is a drummers forum and it makes perfect sense to me to analyze and criticize well known drummers for the strengths and weaknesses of their technique and to incorporate that knowledge in the quest to better understand our craft.

Yes. Yes. No.

Yes, I agree that we're just bashing each other, or...seem to be.

Yes, I agree that the "pros" have endured some ridicule and rejection during their careers, and that the industry is "cut-throat".

No, I do NOT agree that it makes sense(let alone, perfect), for anyone to analyze or criticize other drummers, whether well known or not. It serves absolutely no purpose for anyone to point out what THEY "think" about someone elses' playing. I mean, come on...isn't that "arrogance" at its' core?

Unless, of course, you're an established drum critic with credentials, cnw60. And that you've been given "carte blanche" from the administrators, to do said critiques.

Not to cause a fuss, cnw60. It just sounds to me like you're being a little brash about this...

Peace...

zappafan
10-09-2007, 01:12 AM
Oh give me a break. Yesterday you thought you were so enlightened. Now today you backpedal to the stone age, make a total fool of yourself, try to spin how all this was a big joke after you got your butt handed to you, then try to put a cherry on top by downsizing those who can do this for a living because you have a regular job. Don't you know that his evil 8/5 boss likes jazz, and that's the reason he comes to drum forums to punk people although he really doesn't care.

If you hadn't cared you would never have gone to all the trouble you did to make your point, then try to defend yourself. Even in my young life I can't count how many times I've seen a frustrated musician talk smack, get called on it, then try to spin that he was only punking the room. You're absolutely no different.

Go get a glass of water man. You need it.

Man , if I was a frustrated musician, I'd be practicing now. I'm waiting for the Yankee game to start at 7:30. And quite enjoying your posts and the attempt, or lack thereof for you to make an intelligent comment.

No matt, yesterday I asked a question. In your own little world, you may make of it what you will. It seems you are the frustrated one, not I. I don't recall saying I have been trying to be a rock star, do you? Please point out where I said that. Why are you so intense? The only one frustrated here is you. It's quite entertaining that you actually believe everything you write and that it's the only and absolutely only truth. It seems you are trying to become a musician and make a living out of it. I never have said that nor will I nor do I care about being one. It's fun for me. It's a job to you, apparently and that's cool too. Understand now?

You seem so bitter as to the fact that apparently you are still not doing well at your desired chosen path being music. That's a shame. (in my best Jerry Seinfeld voice). But, hey you know Max Roach so everything you say is law. I bow before you.....about the arrogance thing, a certain member here comes clearly to mind now and is exactly what I was talking about....Figure it out yet?

Peace and Love. :)

TopCat
10-09-2007, 01:22 AM
http://jj.am/gallery/d/32041-1/CaptainAmericaFacepalm.jpg

DogBreath
10-09-2007, 03:13 AM
OK.
I’ll ask you – decide : Porsches and mansions or the city bus and a roach filled apartment?
All other things being equal, and if those were the only two choices in life, I'd take the mansion and the Porsche. BUT everything else is not equal and those are far from the only two choices in life.


DogBreath – in a heartbeat. Now, c’mon, tell me, the Who asks you to play instead of Ringo’s son on the tour. You gonna say no????
Are you kidding me? I'd play the Spice Girls reunion tour if they called and asked me, but... don't you see that you are creating these completely unrealistic "this or that" scenarios?

Your original point seems to be that the average drummer should stop bashing the pros. I submit that the average drummer looks up to the pros. We admire them, we respect them, we buy their DVDs and heads and sticks, we go to their clinics. If you are saying that immature kids should stop being fanboys, well, great. But you may as well tell the ocean to stop waving at you.

Mom's computer + anonymity + lack of forum moderation = dumb things being posted online. I can only control one of those factors here. Funny that some kids see that as "censorship." A good dictionary might help them with that misconception, but good luck telling anything to someone with that maturity level. This forum is and will remain the single most respected and respectable online community devoted to drummers. It seems strange, therefore, that you would choose this forum over any other to tell us to go easy on the pros. They don't seem to have a problem with us; sorry if you do.

cnw60
10-09-2007, 03:25 AM
Yes. Yes. No.

Yes, I agree that we're just bashing each other, or...seem to be.

Yes, I agree that the "pros" have endured some ridicule and rejection during their careers, and that the industry is "cut-throat".

No, I do NOT agree that it makes sense(let alone, perfect), for anyone to analyze or criticize other drummers, whether well known or not. It serves absolutely no purpose for anyone to point out what THEY "think" about someone elses' playing. I mean, come on...isn't that "arrogance" at its' core?

Unless, of course, you're an established drum critic with credentials, cnw60. And that you've been given "carte blanche" from the administrators, to do said critiques.

Not to cause a fuss, cnw60. It just sounds to me like you're being a little brash about this...

Peace...

A couple things - I don't profess to be an established drum critic, however I don't believe that there's a minimum prerequisite for offering honest and valid criticism in this forum. What is required in any critical discussion is to be very clear in defining the terms, issues and critical framework that form the basis of the criticism. That kind of clarity is what elevates criticism from the level of being simply an opinion to the more valuable realm where one can actually learn something from it. In fact, the act of criticizing should be educational for the critic because defining a critical framework forces you to explore the assumptions that you may have previously taken for granted. It also provides the basis for self-criticism or more importantly, gives you the tools to understand and respond to criticism from others. I will definitely concede that this is a pretty theoretical viewpoint, but hey, that's the kind of guy I am.

And my basic point is still that once someone puts their work out into the public arena, especially when they have achieved some degree of fame and fortune because of it - it's fair game for anyone to use it as fodder for critical analysis. That doesn't mean everybody will be right or will even understand the premise from which the work was offered. But that's where the forum steps in and serves as the great equalizer by having other people who can call BS when somebody misses the mark (kind of how Matt and Steamer have been offering 'corrective feedback' throughout this thread). And the process, at it's best, offers the possibility for increasing the overall understanding and awareness of the community. At it's worst, well let's just say we all know how that plays out...

DogBreath
10-09-2007, 03:27 AM
DogBreath and others here will take the ugly drunk woman who just finished tossing her cookies in the corner of said smoky bar over Connie apparently. Again, personal choice
My friend, I hope you were smiling when you said that because you are about to get tossed out on your rear end.

23 posts deleted for personal attacks or being off topic. The next personal attack gets this thread closed and a free ban for the offender, on the house. Any takers? You guys want to talk about this nicely? Alrighty then.

Ozzy Biz
10-09-2007, 03:52 AM
My friend, I hope you were smiling when you said that because you are about to get tossed out on your rear end.

23 posts deleted for personal attacks or being off topic. The next personal attack gets this thread closed and a free ban for the offender, on the house. Any takers? You guys want to talk about this nicely? Alrighty then.

Well handled. This was getting a bit out of control...

danander11
10-09-2007, 04:27 AM
Where's Rodney King when you need him?

(rofl)

johnnyfivetimes
10-09-2007, 04:29 AM
i think travis portnoy ulrich could take tony williams smith anyday in a potato sack race, imo. whos better, worse, more arrogant....who cares, were all drummers, everybody lighten up

Jusstickinaround
10-09-2007, 05:31 AM
Really? You'd rather have thousands of screaming fans than highly developed technical ability? Huh. I guess it takes all kinds. Me, I'd take the the 7 drunks, especially if they showed up to see a drummer that they truly appreciated, and they stayed long enough to get drunk while I put on the best show I could for my devoted fans. Maybe for you it's more about the adulation and less about the drumming.

If you have great skills and you're only playing for a handfull of people, then you're selling yourself short.

Think about what you're saying, it may so noble, but what's the point of having great technique if no one hears it.

Why can't you have both? Steve Smith, one of the best in the world, compromised his drumming when he joined Journey. He even said that he played differently, with less notes, especially in big arena's. He made his money and now plays what he really loves, jazz, did he sell out?

I don't think a drummer can really sell out anyway, it's not like a songwriter being told to change his music to make it more marketable. I doubt any one of us would turn down a chance to record with a major artist, no matter what type of music it was, or get hired to record for someone unknown, and then tell them you won't play what they want because it doesn't show off your technique.

Do we say guys like Ringo and Charlie don't deserve there success because they can't play blistering solos?

I for one not only started playing drums because I loved them, but also because I wanted to be a star, or at least make a living from it. That didn't happen, but I still play wherever and whatever I can.

mattsmith
10-09-2007, 06:00 AM
i think travis portnoy ulrich could take tony williams smith anyday in a potato sack race, imo. whos better, worse, more arrogant....who cares, were all drummers, everybody lighten up

I'm not going to stir up the hornet's nest again here, but only to say that there is nothing wrong with being passionate about how you feel when it comes to music. There are many less valid things that too many people only think are big deals. There are already too many out there who throw out this It's only music line as if it's some universal understanding that everybody agrees with, when it really isn't. I think it's sad when people feel that way about music, or any kind of art worth fighting for.

I remember being told this story about members of the French Resistance who used to hijack Nazi trains that were trying to smuggle great French art out of the country, and how those guys took bullets to save Picassos, because they believed that art was at the core of who they were as people and as a culture.

I wonder how many of their relatives thought Hey it's only art. What's the big deal?

At the same time many who wear the It's only music shirt are the same ones who totally lose it over non musical practice for prizes events like WFD or some drum contest. Then suddenly they come out of nowhere and become defenders of the faith. After seeing enough of this, you realize that actual motivations are a lot more self driven than some let on...not from everybody, but enough.

Yeah, it got testy today. But it was still good.

Jusstickinaround
10-09-2007, 06:06 AM
My friend, I hope you were smiling when you said that because you are about to get tossed out on your rear end.

23 posts deleted for personal attacks or being off topic. The next personal attack gets this thread closed and a free ban for the offender, on the house. Any takers? You guys want to talk about this nicely? Alrighty then.

Happy Holloween everyone!

aydee
10-09-2007, 06:08 AM
I'm not going to stir up the hornet's nest again here, but only to say that there is nothing wrong with being passionate about how you feel when it comes to music. There are many less valid things that too many people only think are big deals. There are already too many out there who throw out this It's only music line as if it's some universal understanding that everybody agrees with, when it really isn't. I think it's sad when people feel that way about music, or any kind of art worth fighting for.

I remember being told this story about members of the French Resistance who used to hijack Nazi trains that were trying to smuggle great French art out of the country, and how those guys took bullets to save Picassos, because they believed that art was at the core of who they were as people and as a culture.

I wonder how many of their relatives thought Hey it's only art. What's the big deal?

At the same time many who wear the It's only music shirt are the same ones who totally lose it over non musical practice for prizes events like WFD or some drum contest. Then suddenly they come out of nowhere and become defenders of the faith. After seeing enough of this, you realize that actual motivations are a lot more self driven than some let on...not from everybody, but enough.

Yeah, it got testy today. But it was still good.

Well said, Matt. Are you as articulate with your Moller taps? I cant get my softer accents under control. I met Max too, by the way. Forget the drummer bit...What a gentleman!

DogBreath
10-09-2007, 06:26 AM
If you have great skills and you're only playing for a handfull of people, then you're selling yourself short.

Think about what you're saying, it may so noble, but what's the point of having great technique if no one hears it.

Why can't you have both?
Again, it was the original poster who created the artificial dichotomy to which I was responding. These moral dilemmas tend to exist only as mental exercises, not in the real world, thus the perceived need to defend either position, along with the emotional attachment that often accompanies the position, is simply misplaced. Most of us will not have to worry about being in Steve Smith's place, and if we ever are then I would imagine that the choice would be the right one for each of us, not any one single right answer that applies to everyone.

Steamer
10-09-2007, 06:36 AM
I'm not going to stir up the hornet's nest again here, but only to say that there is nothing wrong with being passionate about how you feel when it comes to music. There are many less valid things that too many people only think are big deals. There are already too many out there who throw out this It's only music line as if it's some universal understanding that everybody agrees with, when it really isn't. I think it's sad when people feel that way about music, or any kind of art worth fighting for.

I remember being told this story about members of the French Resistance who used to hijack Nazi trains that were trying to smuggle great French art out of the country, and how those guys took bullets to save Picassos, because they believed that art was at the core of who they were as people and as a culture.

I wonder how many of their relatives thought Hey it's only art. What's the big deal?

At the same time many who wear the It's only music shirt are the same ones who totally lose it over non musical practice for prizes events like WFD or some drum contest. Then suddenly they come out of nowhere and become defenders of the faith. After seeing enough of this, you realize that actual motivations are a lot more self driven than some let on...not from everybody, but enough.

Yeah, it got testy today. But it was still good.

Good points Matt.

I'm one of those people who takes playing music very seriously and the commitment it takes usually over most of a lifetime to accomplish ones goals as a musician. There's no arrogance or snobery contained in that statement only the realization of what it takes to complete one's own personal goals be it for fame or fortune or for the pure pursuit of an artistic endeavor or personal musical goal. And yes I got testy when the true serious nature of that type of level of commitment to one's art is not understood properly or given any due respect since i've always been ready to stand up for the good fight to stay true to my craft and beliefs and why some would chose such a route,not an easy route I might add on many fronts. We are all individuals with different goals and desires but we should always show each other mutual respect no matter what the personal choice or choices one makes.

michael drums
10-09-2007, 07:27 AM
A couple things - I don't profess to be an established drum critic, however I don't believe that there's a minimum prerequisite for offering honest and valid criticism in this forum. What is required in any critical discussion is to be very clear in defining the terms, issues and critical framework that form the basis of the criticism. That kind of clarity is what elevates criticism from the level of being simply an opinion to the more valuable realm where one can actually learn something from it. In fact, the act of criticizing should be educational for the critic because defining a critical framework forces you to explore the assumptions that you may have previously taken for granted. It also provides the basis for self-criticism or more importantly, gives you the tools to understand and respond to criticism from others. I will definitely concede that this is a pretty theoretical viewpoint, but hey, that's the kind of guy I am.

And my basic point is still that once someone puts their work out into the public arena, especially when they have achieved some degree of fame and fortune because of it - it's fair game for anyone to use it as fodder for critical analysis. That doesn't mean everybody will be right or will even understand the premise from which the work was offered. But that's where the forum steps in and serves as the great equalizer by having other people who can call BS when somebody misses the mark (kind of how Matt and Steamer have been offering 'corrective feedback' throughout this thread). And the process, at it's best, offers the possibility for increasing the overall understanding and awareness of the community. At it's worst, well let's just say we all know how that plays out...

Well, cnw60...

You can suger-coat it all you want with big words and important(sounding) statements, but I'll stick with my views of my post # 71.

Though, I DO agree that Matt and Steamer have been offering "some" corrective feedback, even if some of it was harsh.

I mean no dis-respect to you, cnw60, but we'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess...

Peace Out!

Erik Lund
10-09-2007, 08:16 AM
23 posts deleted? What went on in here? I'm gone for a few hours and all hell breaks loose?


I don't know what was said in the deleted posts, but I've never seen you so spikey, Matt.

Jeff Almeyda
10-09-2007, 08:20 AM
Again, it was the original poster who created the artificial dichotomy to which I was responding. These moral dilemmas tend to exist only as mental exercises, not in the real world, thus the perceived need to defend either position, along with the emotional attachment that often accompanies the position, is simply misplaced. Most of us will not have to worry about being in Steve Smith's place, and if we ever are then I would imagine that the choice would be the right one for each of us, not any one single right answer that applies to everyone.

Nicely put. Especially the zen-influenced bit about the emotional attachment that often accompanies the position.

Frankly, I really couldn't give this thread much credence (which is why I made the " leave Britney alone" comments) when I first read it and I still can't because this conflict was resolved years ago with me.

I would practice just as hard as I do today if I was the only person left alive. Drums and music are part of my being, it's not as if I am doing it for any external reason. Frankly, I refer to those musicians who do it for external reasons as craftsmen and not artists. Certainly respectable and even admirable but NOT representing expression at the highest level.

My happiness is entirely dependent upon me and my reaction to the world. I don't need adulation, as a matter of fact, if someone comes up to me and tells me I'm great I often feel uncomfortable even though I am at a pro level. It's because their definition of "great" is not mine.

So, with that framework in my mind, reading a comment written by some "weekend warrior" that basically views drumming/music as a means to an end and not an end in itself, is just laughable. It's like my teeny bopper cousin calling Mozart "sleepy music". It can't even be replied to seriously.

danander11
10-09-2007, 09:06 AM
(snip) It's like my teeny bopper cousin calling Mozart "sleepy music". It can't even be replied to seriously.

It is a historically proven fact that the term teeny bopper was dervived from the french words, Ti'nee Beaupair.. which translated into english means.. Bay City Rollers.

;-)

NUTHA JASON
10-09-2007, 09:18 AM
Again, it was the original poster who created the artificial dichotomy to which I was responding. These moral dilemmas tend to exist only as mental exercises, not in the real world, thus the perceived need to defend either position, along with the emotional attachment that often accompanies the position, is simply misplaced. Most of us will not have to worry about being in Steve Smith's place, and if we ever are then I would imagine that the choice would be the right one for each of us, not any one single right answer that applies to everyone.


DB, this gets my vote for one of the most intelligent things ever typed up on this forum.

j

Erik Lund
10-09-2007, 10:44 AM
DB, this gets my vote for one of the most intelligent things ever typed up on this forum.


Obviously right behind my post #56.

fat in the middle
10-09-2007, 11:18 AM
All music has a function, The avante garde jazz helped create Zappa, as did Stravinsky, Zappa helped create the spice girls if you dig deep enough...Zappa lobbyied against censership. I find what Dogbreath said a couple posts earlier was indeed very well said. It made me think about how we can be censers without realizing it. How judgement is the bain [or can be] of artists. The moment we have to prove something, creativity goes out the window. Go have a conversation in a coffee shop, or a drum shop. Some say a gig is like 4 practices. A real conversation with people is like 25 posts!



www.paulclifford.moonfruit.com

That Guy
10-09-2007, 03:08 PM
This thread is driving me to go and listen to Justin Timberlake. Help.

Erik Lund
10-09-2007, 03:19 PM
He's got a few good songs. "Cry Me A River" is pretty great...or whatever it's called.

abe
10-09-2007, 03:30 PM
[...]Your bridges were burned, and now it's your turn
To cry, cry me a river
Cry me a river-er
Cry me a river
Cry me a river-er, yea yea[...]

I know that they say
That somethings are better left unsaid[...]

Oh
(Oh)
The damage is done
So I guess I be leaving
Oh
(Oh)[...]

:D I would say, very true lyrics ;)

P.S. Song isn't bad.

Jon Cable
10-09-2007, 06:30 PM
Erik L should go back to his private estate before he's soiled by us, the unclean. Matt and Steamer; you damn jazz snobs should stop posting such articulate and well thought out arguments cos you're making the rest of us look bad!!
Zappafan; love ya bro, good thread, love the fact that we do it for fun and still, despite what some others may believe, have our passion
And DB....please can you pm me the deleted posts cos I think its great when mature adults [???] get the computer equivalent of road rage
MichaelDrums; what the hell are you still doing on here??? LMBFAO!
Love and kisses to all, jc

michael drums
10-09-2007, 06:35 PM
Erik L should go back to his private estate before he's soiled by us, the unclean. Matt and Steamer; you damn jazz snobs should stop posting such articulate and well thought out arguments cos you're making the rest of us look bad!!
Zappafan; love ya bro, good thread, love the fact that we do it for fun and still, despite what some others may believe, have our passion
And DB....please can you pm me the deleted posts cos I think its great when mature adults [???] get the computer equivalent of road rage
MichaelDrums; what the hell are you still doing on here??? LMBFAO!
Love and kisses to all, jc

Oh Jon...you're always good for a witty quote! Hee...hee...

Right back atcha, buddy. ;-)

LMBFAOA!


Awwww Shucks! :-)

Steamer
10-09-2007, 06:37 PM
Erik L should go back to his private estate before he's soiled by us, the unclean. Matt and Steamer; you damn jazz snobs should stop posting such articulate and well thought out arguments cos you're making the rest of us look bad!!
Zappafan; love ya bro, good thread, love the fact that we do it for fun and still, despite what some others may believe, have our passion
And DB....please can you pm me the deleted posts cos I think its great when mature adults [???] get the computer equivalent of road rage
MichaelDrums; what the hell are you still doing on here??? LMBFAO!
Love and kisses to all, jc


Man are you ever funny brother!. Thanks for the good laugh much needed I may add.

Erik Lund
10-09-2007, 07:08 PM
Yes, I shall retire to the manor. Muffy and Buffy need their filet mignon biscotti dog treats.

I played to a crowd of 8 people, but they were all millionaires and left their estates to me (touched by my artistic vision and integrity). And I almost turned down the gig for the Real World marathon...

abe
10-09-2007, 07:27 PM
a crowd of 8 people

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Tim Waterson
10-09-2007, 08:45 PM
Alright boys and girls, here I go.

I've read in many threads the importance of technique and have read many threads that critique famous drummers technical drumming or lack thereof.

Music for the general public is not about technique. It's about what you hear and how it moves you. Whether it makes you want to grab a beer (AC/DC), or make you want to sit back and relax (Bach).

I understand that technique is important, but to hear the absolute blathering on how bad the technique and skills of everyone from Lars to Portnoy is absolutely ridiculous. Not everyone is Dave Weckl nor do they want to be, although I'm sure I can find stuff here about his skill or lack thereof. You cannot please everyone all the time. I understand that, but c'mon.

Many people on this forum have a great amount of skill. I've watched and heard the vids and clips. But there is a lot of arrogance as well. Not everyone loves to play a clave in 21/17 time or wants to listen to it for that matter.

My point - why do so many guys bash the pros on lack of skill or technique? I'll take playing snare on 2 and 4 in front of 30,000 screaming fans over being able to do a right foot clave while playing 13/3 time with my left hand in front of 7 drunks in a bar.

I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second.

My wife asked me to take out the part about the arrogant jazz players here, but I believe it is the truth, so I'm leaving it in.

That is all.... :)

Peace.
First of all there is NOT one drummer who can play everything....
This is why there isare a varietyof STYLE's of music
Sometimes PRO drummers that just GROOVE for the band can play stuff that will make your head spin..........
FYI ...RAY Garraway from CHAOS just plays simnple GROOVES with the band....
but I KNOW first hand that RAY can play way beyond that..

If a MUSICIAN has passion for MUSIC then they will play with their HEART no matter what kind of music they play.
I love the Phil Rudd grooves but I can apprecciate WECKL as well...
There are jazz snobs, blues snobs, metal snobs,etc...
these are just closed minded people and they will be who they are we can't change that..
My 3 cents Im GREEDY...
Tim

abe
10-09-2007, 11:23 PM
Im GREEDY...

So that's the reason why you put FREE educational clips in youtube and give out a lot of useful tips for everyone in this forum :)

By the way your post is great!

Jusstickinaround
10-10-2007, 12:44 AM
So, with that framework in my mind, reading a comment written by some "weekend warrior" that basically views drumming/music as a means to an end and not an end in itself, is just laughable. It's like my teeny bopper cousin calling Mozart "sleepy music". It can't even be replied to seriously.[/QUOTE]

I take a bit of offense to that "weekend warrior" crap.Yes I play with a band mainly on weekends, mainly because I have a day job and it's the only time I can gig. If you're implying guys like me don't have the passion or skills, well, your sadly mistaken. When I'm not playing I'm thinking of playing or practicing, I'm thinking of new ways to interpet a cover song and make it mine.When I do play a gig, usally for 3-4 hours a night, I put every ounce of energy and emotion in to each song, because I don't know when the next gig might be.
Believe me, I'd rather be playing original tunes, but unfortunately where I live if you do all originals you're very limited where you can play. Besides, I've given up the dream of stardom, now I just play because I love being a drummer and playing music.

Jon Cable
10-10-2007, 12:56 AM
I gotta great mental picture of DogBreath playing for the Spice Girls....BaldySpice?....Or DawgySpice???.....Or AdminSpice???.... Or JonYou'reBarredFromDrummerWorldSpice???....Or even DeletedPostSpice???....
what would we be???...MattSmith could be EthicalSpice....Erik L could be IncrediblySpecialSpice.....Michaeldrums could be WhatTheHellAreYouStillDoingHereSpice....I could be FatObnoxiousSpice...Bernhard could be RingoSpice......who could be JazzSnobSpice??
God I wish I took all this seriously.....
PixieStix could be PersonalityDisorderSpice...

Jon Cable
10-10-2007, 12:59 AM
So, with that framework in my mind, reading a comment written by some "weekend warrior" that basically views drumming/music as a means to an end and not an end in itself, is just laughable. It's like my teeny bopper cousin calling Mozart "sleepy music". It can't even be replied to seriously.

I take a bit of offense to that "weekend warrior" crap.Yes I play with a band mainly on weekends, mainly because I have a day job and it's the only time I can gig. If you're implying guys like me don't have the passion or skills, well, your sadly mistaken. When I'm not playing I'm thinking of playing or practicing, I'm thinking of new ways to interpet a cover song and make it mine.When I do play a gig, usally for 3-4 hours a night, I put every ounce of energy and emotion in to each song, because I don't know when the next gig might be.
Believe me, I'd rather be playing original tunes, but unfortunately where I live if you do all originals you're very limited where you can play. Besides, I've given up the dream of stardom, now I just play because I love being a drummer and playing music.[/QUOTE]

Good for you bro, Im sure that Jeff didnt mean any offence by his remarks tho.
Some of us arent lucky enough to play for a living and 'weekend warrior' should be a compliment to our tenacity and dedication and love for playing.

Jon Cable
10-10-2007, 01:03 AM
First of all there is NOT one drummer who can play everything....
This is why there isare a varietyof STYLE's of music
Sometimes PRO drummers that just GROOVE for the band can play stuff that will make your head spin..........
FYI ...RAY Garraway from CHAOS just plays simnple GROOVES with the band....
but I KNOW first hand that RAY can play way beyond that..

If a MUSICIAN has passion for MUSIC then they will play with their HEART no matter what kind of music they play.
I love the Phil Rudd grooves but I can apprecciate WECKL as well...
There are jazz snobs, blues snobs, metal snobs,etc...
these are just closed minded people and they will be who they are we can't change that..
My 3 cents Im GREEDY...
Tim
And to be fair Tim; there are WFD snobs too, agree wholeheartedly with your warm fuzzy sentiments tho.....

Tim Waterson
10-10-2007, 01:41 AM
And to be fair Tim; there are WFD snobs too, agree wholeheartedly with your warm fuzzy sentiments tho.....\
Yes unfortunately there will always be snobs......
One of the reasons a few of us DONT do WFD anymore
WE are drummers FIRST,.,,SPEED is just a means to an end...
BUT it is FUN to be a ble to play fast..LOL
Tim

aydee
10-10-2007, 03:36 AM
I gotta great mental picture of DogBreath playing for the Spice Girls....BaldySpice?....Or DawgySpice???.....Or AdminSpice???.... Or JonYou'reBarredFromDrummerWorldSpice???....Or even DeletedPostSpice???....
what would we be???...MattSmith could be EthicalSpice....Erik L could be IncrediblySpecialSpice.....Michaeldrums could be WhatTheHellAreYouStillDoingHereSpice....I could be FatObnoxiousSpice...Bernhard could be RingoSpice......who could be JazzSnobSpice??
God I wish I took all this seriously.....
PixieStix could be PersonalityDisorderSpice...

Jon, by the unofficial powers entrusted in me, I hereby pronounce you "the unofficial king of of this thread"

Steamer
10-10-2007, 03:56 AM
\
Yes unfortunately there will always be snobs......
One of the reasons a few of us DONT do WFD anymore
WE are drummers FIRST,.,,SPEED is just a means to an end...
BUT it is FUN to be a ble to play fast..LOL
Tim


It's more fun in my view to learn how to play well in a band a true art indeed in my view for a drummer. Okay sorry my age is showing and no arrogance or snobery intended on my part just an observation and comment from one of the old crew that puts the music first. I've got tons of chops it's just a matter of understanding how to use them in a musical manner in the context of the musical situations i'm involved in and that my friends is the real trick and learned skill in my view and more satisfying in the end at least for me from what time and experience has taught me.

Tim Waterson
10-10-2007, 04:03 AM
It's more fun in my view to learn how to play well in a band a true art indeed in my view for a drummer. Okay sorry my age is showing and no arrogance or snobery intended on my part just an observation and comment from one of the old crew that puts the music first. I've got tons of chops it's just a matter of understanding how to use them in a musical manner in the context of the musical situations i'm involved in and that my friends is the real trick and learned skill in my view and more satisfying in the end at least for me from what time and experience has taught me.

STAN,
maybe you dont know? but we ALL play in bands.........
and of course GROOVE and making the music feel good is what its all about.
Tim

Steamer
10-10-2007, 04:13 AM
STAN,
maybe you dont know? but we ALL play in bands.........
and of course GROOVE and making the music feel good is what its all about.
Tim

Okay Tim then that's good then. I just have heard lots of players over the years working on developing amazing technical drum skills but in return don't have a clue how to play in a band. For me this has always been a legitmate concern and observation of mine worth addressing.

Tim Waterson
10-10-2007, 04:23 AM
Okay Tim then that's good then. I just have heard lots of players over the years working on developing amazing technical drum skills but in return don't have a clue how to play in a band. For me this has always been a legitmate concern and observation of mine worth addressing.

STAN were on the same page..LOL
This is why I mentioned RAY Garraway from KAOS as he can play circles around a lot of drummers but KNOWS how just lay back and groove...........
IMHO one of the most under rated drummers.....
Tim

Steamer
10-10-2007, 04:28 AM
STAN were on the same page..LOL
This is why I mentioned RAY Garraway from KAOS as he can play circles around a lot of drummers but KNOWS how just lay back and groove...........
IMHO one of the most under rated drummers.....
Tim

I hear you Tim. Yes I remember Ray from his Vancouver days a few years back now. Yes folks one SERIOUS player for understanding and having the full meal deal agreed Tim.

michael drums
10-10-2007, 05:41 AM
Jon, by the unofficial powers entrusted in me, I hereby pronounce you "the unofficial king of of this thread"

All those in favor, say AYE.


AYE!! ;-)

Erik Lund
10-10-2007, 05:44 AM
"RAY Garraway from CHAOS just plays simnple GROOVES with the band"

...which makes the band name a little amusing, no?




I'm not even going back to re-read everything, but I think the initial idea of this thread has been completely altered, somewhere around Matt getting all huffy, me writing dumb crap, and a few others going off on tangents...

Now it's turned into "weekend warrior says [this]" and everyone jumping to either side...Without even going back, I took the inital post as "Guys who aren't super-technical who are doing well, and that should be okay because they fit in that band that's doing well for a reason. Gosh, maybe all of the people who talk all day about proper wrist movement should ease up on them."

Something like that...

Well, I was gonna get into a long post but my buddy just showed up and we're off to $1.50 pints of Kirin and Saporro.

To be continued...

mattsmith
10-10-2007, 06:58 AM
"RAY Garraway from CHAOS just plays simnple GROOVES with the band"

...which makes the band name a little amusing, no?




I'm not even going back to re-read everything, but I think the initial idea of this thread has been completely altered, somewhere around Matt getting all huffy, me writing dumb crap, and a few others going off on tangents...

Now it's turned into "weekend warrior says [this]" and everyone jumping to either side...Without even going back, I took the inital post as "Guys who aren't super-technical who are doing well, and that should be okay because they fit in that band that's doing well for a reason. Gosh, maybe all of the people who talk all day about proper wrist movement should ease up on them."

Something like that...

Well, I was gonna get into a long post but my buddy just showed up and we're off to $1.50 pints of Kirin and Saporro.

To be continued...

You of all people, the talented 26 year old free jazz drummer, who would rather wait tables then play what you don't believe in---should have seen that first post for what it was as quickly as anyone...which was...

Who do non famous drummers think they are for talking about the technique of famous drummers, when it's so obvious to a non serious musician that you musician people who claim such high principles would actually sell out as fast as I would if you had half the chance... especially you jazz snobs who perch yourselves on flagpoles judging the rest of us, when all you've got are your smokey bars to show for it?

Did I get it about right? I think I did.

And the fact that several people here demonstrated otherwise so passionately was a very cool thing to see.

Nothing was wrong with this thread at all, despite the questionable reasons for its beginning. And the weekend warrior issues are certainly a part of it because we were actually having a dialogue about the implied pecking order and shaky democratic principles associated with posting on drum forums.

And yeah, Tim's participation was cool too, because speed drumming business has blurred the lines of several of us here with a pecking order in a forum that contains more of those guys than any other. Hey, I'm proud of that part of me too, which made the elitist jazz snob label pretty hilarious.

Obviously this thread did a great deal of good, because we had a spirited exchange and 2000 people saw it. I had for all practical purposes given up on seeing good spirited talks here, because it had been so long since it had happened.

I think the true issue is about how forum posters want to label something they either don't understand, or act out when they feel like the parade is passing them by. I really think this is where this jazz snob angle comes from, along with why full time pros downsize weekend players, and why some weekend guys think full time pros don't have real jobs. Yeah, come on...admit it weekend guys. There are a large batch of American pro musicians who are supposed to feel guilty about having full time music careers, because it's part of our culture to be told that real work is only when you move an object from one place to the other.

This stuff will never work its way through on a forum thread, but at least more of us are now aware that these divisions exist.

DogBreath
10-10-2007, 08:52 AM
Yes, we need passionate conversations here, and I know that it's a hard line to walk between passion and getting just a little too carried away. I appreciate those who can walk that line and keep DW interesting.

Bald Spice.

Banned Spice?

I can't decide.

NUTHA JASON
10-10-2007, 09:21 AM
There are a large batch of American pro musicians who are supposed to feel guilty about having full time music careers, because it's part of our culture to be told that real work is only when you move an object from one place to the other.


i can't gig without moving my drums from one place to another.

bashed spice

bored spice

j

Jon Cable
10-10-2007, 01:47 PM
Yes, we need passionate conversations here, and I know that it's a hard line to walk between passion and getting just a little too carried away. I appreciate those who can walk that line and keep DW interesting.

Bald Spice.

Banned Spice?

I can't decide.
I think that WonderfullyForgivingFairModeratorSpice would be the most appropriate....BannedSpice seems so final....and you know you'd miss my boyish good looks and charm......

aydee
10-10-2007, 02:42 PM
Ok jazz snobs and metal heads. lets pull the curtain on the differences.

How about similarities...

14726

Ploum©
10-10-2007, 03:14 PM
I was listening to Zappa's Tinseltown Rebellion just this morning, and reading Zappafan's original post with that song playing in my head was really funny.

I hate reading threads that are basically created to rile up people and get angry reactions, but I believe this one could have been great discussion material.

There's always people who can't see the bigger picture (ie. the actual music), those will bash successful musicians over small details. Obviously though, there is nothing wrong in telling a beginner to not model his playing technique after Lars's.

bballdrummer34
10-10-2007, 03:32 PM
New Rule:
If you play jazz ANY jazz at all, and you make a comment that COULD be, but not NECESSARILYbe negative you have been deemed JAZZ SNOB 2007!!!!!!!!!

bballdrummer34
10-10-2007, 03:34 PM
I take that back, if you make a negative comment you're a jazz snob!!!!!!! Doesn't matter what you play!!!!!!

tune in next time for: Jazz Snobs take over America Next at 11!

rockinrider
10-11-2007, 02:06 AM
You can call me Snob Spice!!!! LOL!

BTW, DB, I live with no dichotomy...I exist in that grey area between Money and Chops. Not enough of either! (But I do have more Chops than Money and I'm happy where I'm at.)

mattsmith
10-12-2007, 04:48 AM
Today I learned that CNN World Headline News wants me to drive down to Atlanta Tuesday as a guest on their show News to Me. It will be shown 4 times in November for a combined worldwide audience of over 60 million people in over 100 countries, or the combined attendence of 3000 sold out 20,000 seat arenas, which if played one show per night 7 nights per week would take over 8 years, or 45% of my entire collective lifetime.

The only reason I'm even mentioning this is to demonstrate the absurd irony of this thread and why the numbers game part of stuff like this is too ridiculous to even care about.

Erik Lund
10-12-2007, 02:40 PM
Matt,

I never said I would rather wait tables. In fact, I pretty much hate it. The only good thing is that I apparently am great at it (dealing with people face to face) and make really good money doing it. I might take a gig with a James Blunt type dude, which isn't what I'm into, but it has potential to do well...Every time I put my apron on at work I think to myself "what a wonderful world"....wait, sorry I think "Gawd, this f-ing sucks. Where did my life go wrong?" If I said otherwise, I was just trying to fool myself or save face or something...It's awful.

I might just have a different definition of "jazz snob" which might be why I'm not really up-in-arms with the first post - and actually remember reading it and agreeing with most of the points/flaming/whatever in it...

The drummers that *I* respect in the jazz/music world, seem to be ..."beyond" the realm of "jazz snob"... They are more about "good music" and seem to have a much larger/broader taste in music than what I consider "jazz snob"...

I will say outright, that my boy Travis is the best sax player in NYC right now. And many big-name guys in town would back me up. If you were to talk only about jazz with him, you might think of him as a "snob", but this is the guy who (out of nowhere, seemingly) said "hey check out this guy. His name's DJ Shadow." or "What do you think of this band? They're Blonde Redhead, they're so amazing" - or "I can't stop listening to U2 these days" At the time (maybe 16 years old) I was amazed that he was checking out this stuff. Because afterward, he'd be transcribing some obscure Dave Liebman solo or listen to Trane's "Transition" 10 times in a row while talking about George Garzone's latest show...

A lot of the "jazz snobs" I come across...I can't talk to them about music because they almost have a chip on their shoulder on what's good/acceptable and I tend to differ with them on taste - and the musician jazz snob...Well, I've heard very few personally who I would care to listen to. I think most jazz-snob players are pretty boring/rote/by-the-numbers...I would much rather listen to the band Tapes & Tapes which has a lot of rough edges but great songs/parts.

I couldn't give a crap about the jazz snobs, since I think most of them are going nowhere. But I see a guy who plays in a band with great songs and no technique...The last possible thing I'm thinking is "this guy can't play"

Used to be, and probably still going on now - is the whole bandwagon "Ringo can't play the drums" thing. When I was younger, I would think "yeah, he *does* stink at the drums" - As I got older, I thought "man, there's so many reasons this is great that I didn't even consider when I was younger"

I know this thread is a sort of response to that one other thread that was not even in the majority but, I feel like I understand the inital jist of zappafan's original post. I used to work in a drum shop, and I have been around drummers a long time, and I hear the worst critiques from drummers I wouldn't give a second thought to...


It is late/early and I keep falling asleep at the keyboard


To be continued (again)....

Deltadrummer
10-12-2007, 03:47 PM
Alright boys and girls, here I go.

I've read in many threads the importance of technique and have read many threads that critique famous drummers technical drumming or lack thereof.

Music for the general public is not about technique. It's about what you hear and how it moves you. Whether it makes you want to grab a beer (AC/DC), or make you want to sit back and relax (Bach).

I understand that technique is important, but to hear the absolute blathering on how bad the technique and skills of everyone from Lars to Portnoy is absolutely ridiculous. Not everyone is Dave Weckl nor do they want to be, although I'm sure I can find stuff here about his skill or lack thereof. You cannot please everyone all the time. I understand that, but c'mon.

Many people on this forum have a great amount of skill. I've watched and heard the vids and clips. But there is a lot of arrogance as well. Not everyone loves to play a clave in 21/17 time or wants to listen to it for that matter.

My point - why do so many guys bash the pros on lack of skill or technique? I'll take playing snare on 2 and 4 in front of 30,000 screaming fans over being able to do a right foot clave while playing 13/3 time with my left hand in front of 7 drunks in a bar.

I'll take Lars' so called lousy technique, stadium tours (and bank book) over the arrogant jazz dudes perfect form and crappy little bars they play in any time. If any one here was asked to play in Dream Theatre, Metallica etc., you'd take the gig in a second.

My wife asked me to take out the part about the arrogant jazz players here, but I believe it is the truth, so I'm leaving it in.

That is all.... :)

Peace.

It is so apropos to say that everyone likes what they like and different strokes fo different folks. But there needs to be some space to recognize that comparing Bach with AC/DC is not rational.


I don't dislike AC/DC; but I can recognize that Bach represents the highest aspiration of what music can be, and AC/DC is just a glorified bar band. Just as Gadd, Weckl or Vinnie represent the highest aspiration of what drumming can be and Lars, Portnoy and Tommy Lee are just guys that happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Let's see, would I rather go to an arena concert of 25,000 screaming drunk fans, or an intimate evening of jazz in a small club, performed by musicians who aspire towards the highest end of what they can be as musicians?

That Guy
10-12-2007, 03:50 PM
Let's see, would I rather go to an arena concert of 25,000 screaming drunk fans, or an intimate evening of jazz in a small club, performed by musicians who aspire towards the highest end of what they can be as musicians?

Depends on the band thats playing.

Deltadrummer
10-12-2007, 04:28 PM
Depends on the band thats playing.


I saw Justin Timberlake in passing on Oprah or one of those shows and he had put together quite a nice band. :)

That Guy
10-12-2007, 04:47 PM
I saw Justin Timberlake in passing on Oprah or one of those shows and he had put together quite a nice band. :)

Now that gave me a good laugh. =) Honestly, I have only heard one J.T. song, and that was the "dance" song. I don't even know if that was the name of it. It kinda had a Michael Jackson feel to it. It wasn't bad though.

I do love good arena rock shows. Especially if they have lots of big pyro! I also love to go down to the local jazz club with my wife and enjoy a lovely dinner and some tunes. Like I said.. it all depends on the band.

Oh ya, this was supposed to be about pro drummers... right?

Deltadrummer
10-12-2007, 05:24 PM
The point I was making was that even though there are many types of music, and many types of artists, there is still a point at which you can say that this one is better that that one. There is a point at which that is opinion or taste and a point where that is fact. I don't really enjoy Weckl's playing, I enjoy Portnoy's playing though, that is a matter of taste. But Weckl is a better drummer. That is a matter of fact.

cnw60
10-12-2007, 05:25 PM
Today I learned that CNN World Headline News wants me to drive down to Atlanta Tuesday as a guest on their show News to Me. It will be shown 4 times in November for a combined worldwide audience of over 60 million people in over 100 countries, or the combined attendence of 3000 sold out 20,000 seat arenas, which if played one show per night 7 nights per week would take over 8 years, or 45% of my entire collective lifetime.

The only reason I'm even mentioning this is to demonstrate the absurd irony of this thread and why the numbers game part of stuff like this is too ridiculous to even care about.

Matt - absurdly ironic numbers aside - this sound cool. Congrats!

What's the format - you'll be playing, right? with somebody else?? solo???

Please let us know when this is going to air.

Eric
10-12-2007, 05:42 PM
DB, Im real sorry but I only started playing so I could get rich and famous....and thats STILL why I play! No offence to the guys who 'live for the music' but thats a real nice position to be in if ya can afford it! Why wouldn't one take the $$$$ offered?
I did a country album of Beatles covers [dont ask] with a band a few years ago and the fat fee more than salved my conscience.
I know I'm coming across as the big mercenary but the only person who feeds my family is me, doesn't it make more sense to sellout and then be a higher being!! And MattSmith; much respect to your Dad for being so principled, I know I ain't got the moral fibre.

I don't think being a sellout is about what gigs you do, but what you walk away from for the money. I do a lot of "art" gigs, but I would have done that beatles record in a heartbeat. The question is, what if they offered you a two year tour and that's all you played for that time? I know a musician who was offered the Yanni gig for two years, pay was either 250K or 500K, I can't remember, but he turned it down. I don't blame him. We all have to find our own balance, and those who judge us for feeding our families can get bent.

Deltadrummer
10-12-2007, 05:54 PM
I I know a musician who was offered the Yanni gig for two years, pay was either 250K or 500K, I can't remember, but he turned it down.


Please, hook me up!!! :)

Bruce M. Thomson
10-12-2007, 07:33 PM
Thank you for sparking a bit of debate, I read all of the responses and I almost feel like saying stop, your both right. Here is my two cents: I won't knock a working musician because they are indeed working. I am a simple drummer who plays mostly rock and soul, blues,R & B, country swing, country and improvisational trio type of music, not too much technique but hopefully with lot's of feel. I listen to a very wide range of music and love jazz and I put those drummers up there on a pedestal, I am amazed by their styling and realize that they do what is required in order to make that vain of music work.

I will never be like them but that doesn't stop me from listening, enjoying and maybe picking up a few things here and there. Technique is not everything there is about drumming but if you have it hopefully you will use it properly, if you don't have an over abundance of it that should not determine if you are a good drummer or not. In the end you should be playing the music you are the most comfortable with and playing it with Pizzazz and heart.

As far as Zappa goes, in his very large body of work there is a vast amount of jazz so I don't think you were knocking jazz drummers per say. There is a whole new crop of drummers these days and quite a few of them are in the jazz field and may have set a new tone and standard that influences other Genres as well; it's all good. I'll keep playing what I play but I still love hearing a drummer that dazzles me; as long as it enhances the music and is not merely a clinic.

.

Erik Lund
10-14-2007, 12:53 AM
"I don't dislike AC/DC; but I can recognize that Bach represents the highest aspiration of what music can be, and AC/DC is just a glorified bar band."



Why?/So?



Also - another point I was trying to say earlier and didn't do well, is that some drummers-with- (gawdforbid) bad-technique-in-good-bands are friends with the band. The whole band is a group of friends who got together to make music and are having fun. I can't think of one instance where a band looking for a drummer hired a stranger who wasn't good.

Deltadrummer
10-14-2007, 07:14 AM
"I don't dislike AC/DC; but I can recognize that Bach represents the highest aspiration of what music can be, and AC/DC is just a glorified bar band."



Why?/So?



Also - another point I was trying to say earlier and didn't do well, is that some drummers-with- (gawdforbid) bad-technique-in-good-bands are friends with the band. The whole band is a group of friends who got together to make music and are having fun. I can't think of one instance where a band looking for a drummer hired a stranger who wasn't good.

The great tradition of European classical tradition really starts with Bach. All the greats looked back toward him: Mozart, Beethoven Chopin, Mendelsohn, Brahms, Hindemith and Schoenberg were all influenced by him. Bach had an impeccable sense of counterpoint and could write multiple lines with ease. His output was stunning, some 600 or 700 works in a variety of genres: church music, concertos, keyboard music, lute music, choral music; he even wrote movements for a Mass.

For the answer to So? read above. The fact that one would need to defend this should answer the question. Or maybe I'll just turn on the news and listen to tonight's headline feature, Brittany Spears and her custody battle.

Erik Lund
10-14-2007, 09:11 AM
I don't need a history lesson on Bach.

Yes, the "Father of Modern Music" should get all the praise in the world for what he did. But in 2007 I wouldn't say his music is "the highest aspiration of what music can be". IMO if this were true (of a guy who has been dead for hundreds of years) then music would be in a sad state...


This reminds me of my arguments with people who say "jazz is dead" and that there aren't any players doing anything original... They harken back to the "glory years" of the 50's and 60's, and if they want to live in the past, that's just fine and dandy. But when they just make a blanket statement, belittling the accomplishments of all the great artists of the past 30-40 years...That's when I get going.


In regards to AC/DC and Bach - I can obviously see the pro-Bach side, but, and this might just be to play devil's advocate (maybe not), I would take AC/DC singing about American thighs rather than a Bach etude...And I'm not a huge AC/DC fan. (But I can play about 50 Bach pieces on the piano from memory...)

Deltadrummer
10-14-2007, 05:44 PM
I don't need a history lesson on Bach.

Yes, the "Father of Modern Music" should get all the praise in the world for what he did. But in 2007 I wouldn't say his music is "the highest aspiration of what music can be". IMO if this were true (of a guy who has been dead for hundreds of years) then music would be in a sad state...


This reminds me of my arguments with people who say "jazz is dead" and that there aren't any players doing anything original... They harken back to the "glory years" of the 50's and 60's, and if they want to live in the past, that's just fine and dandy. But when they just make a blanket statement, belittling the accomplishments of all the great artists of the past 30-40 years...That's when I get going.


In regards to AC/DC and Bach - I can obviously see the pro-Bach side, but, and this might just be to play devil's advocate (maybe not), I would take AC/DC singing about American thighs rather than a Bach etude...And I'm not a huge AC/DC fan. (But I can play about 50 Bach pieces on the piano from memory...)


If you cannot see the pro-Bach side, I think you do need a history lesson.

The distinction I am making is that preferring to listen to AC/DC over Bach is a question of taste. But Bach's historical importance is a matter of fact, whether you or I enjoy listening to him. That is not a matter of taste.

People still listen to Bach and are inspired by him 250 years after his death, as people are inspired by Duke of Parker. That's not to say that Jazz is dead. Taking opera for an example. Opera reached its creative pinnacle sometime in the late nineteenth century with composers like Wagner, Verdi and Puccini. Yet, singers like Pavarotti and Domingo brought it to a new pinnacle almost one hundred years later. So these art forms don't die out.


Bach expresses a very high expression of music whether you listen to him today or three hundred years ago, and since he never wrote an etude I doubt you've can play any of them by memory.

DogBreath
10-14-2007, 07:44 PM
Hey guys, sounds like you're having a fascinating conversation that has nothing to do with pro drummers. Why don't you PM each other for a while so that you won't be bothered by the rest of us. Thanks.

Erik Lund
10-14-2007, 10:30 PM
I should have said "pieces" instead of lazily putting inventions, fugues etc as "etudes".
And I guess you didn't read my last paragraph. "I can obviously see the pro-Bach side, but, and this might just be to play devil's advocate (maybe not)"

As for putting this back into drumming - I love the drumming of Eddie Prevost, and think he is musically (and intellectually) leaps above just about everyone else. I will put on an AMM record and just sit there for an hour straight intently listening. But I don't do this as often as putting on something with an average drummer just playing 2 & 4 and going about my day.

Deltadrummer
10-14-2007, 10:57 PM
I should have said "pieces" instead of lazily putting inventions, fugues etc as "etudes".
And I guess you didn't read my last paragraph. "I can obviously see the pro-Bach side, but, and this might just be to play devil's advocate (maybe not)"

As for putting this back into drumming - I love the drumming of Eddie Prevost, and think he is musically (and intellectually) leaps above just about everyone else. I will put on an AMM record and just sit there for an hour straight intently listening. But I don't do this as often as putting on something with an average drummer just playing 2 & 4 and going about my day.

I misread it; sorry. I wasn't wearing my glasses and I thought you were giving me a hard time just to bust my shoes. (which you were.lol)

We live in a world where it is not the arrogant "jazz snobs" who have the upper hand. It is the lowest common denominator that is consistently exalted; and you are termed a snob if you don't agree. It seems to me there is as much arrogance in that than in anything else. The difference is that if I were to ask you why you like Eddie Prevost, you could give me a detailed account; but I really doubt most could do that for Lars Ulrich.

In rock music, it has been the case that drummers often denied there training. I was reading the article on Portnoy in MD about his nomination into the Hall of Fame. Well and good; he denied that he had ever studied with anyone and made it seem as though all of his success rested on his own laurels, that he had no technique. The great pop, rock and funk drummers had a technical background, and that is why they were so good.

PS For me, the jazz I enjoy listening to was actually composed after 1960, and I still hear a lot of great jazz being recorded and performed these days these days. It is just not getting out there.

Jon Cable
10-15-2007, 01:50 AM
I would argue that if Phil Rudd left ac/dc I might get the gig BUT if Johan Sebastian reformed his roque band he would probably employ either someone he knew or an improvement on the original. If thats relevant then I'm not as drunk as I thought I was!
Wandering from the thread guys, DB watches all!! I think Erik hit the nail tho; a band is usually a group of friends and later, if a friend leaves, they replace them with a musician who is possibly more gifted rather than another friend.
And Erik, thank you for your support about the beatle c&w cover album, and no, I wouldn't have toured with them....hey I'm not a mercenary SOB!!! Am I a [B]jazzsnob now???

Deltadrummer
10-15-2007, 03:52 AM
Bach didn't like drummers. He said he could never find one that was well-tempered.

Erik Lund
10-15-2007, 05:31 AM
You're such a music geek, I love it.

Paul Quin
10-15-2007, 03:05 PM
I I know a musician who was offered the Yanni gig for two years, pay was either 250K or 500K, I can't remember, but he turned it down. I don't blame him. We all have to find our own balance, and those who judge us for feeding our families can get bent.

Someone is yanking your chain on the pay issue!

drflam
10-17-2007, 09:56 AM
This thread reminds me of a joke...

What's the difference between a blues musician and a jazz musician?

A blues musician plays 3 chords in front of a 1,000 people.
A jazz musician plays 1,000 chords in front of 3 people.

Hehehe..

Jon Cable
10-18-2007, 01:05 AM
I've particularly enjoyed the 'who suffers the most for their art' discussion between Erik, Matt and Delta! I was waiting for someone to threaten to surgically remove both their hands before they'd play an AC/DC tune!
I'll continue to be unfairly rude about anyone whos more successful than me...the big qustion is...how do we judge that success??
In jazz snob terms it would be playing fantastically eloquent arrangements to a totally empty room and paying for hire of the venue, apparently. In my terms it would be playing something easily within my comfort zone to a crowd of 30,000 every nite for millions of dollars! Just a personal preference...
And before the more cutting amongst us start to criticise me....morals are a wonderful thing, its very easy to say 'I would never do that' when you don't have to. A few years ago I assaulted a number of people for cash rewards, something I'm neither proud nor ashamed of now, but it was the only way I could provide for my family at that time, so I KNOW there is no such time as never. I don't put this information on here for any other reason than I am sick of being preached to by people who have never been in a situation that pressurised.
Its only drums guys, it ain't life or death.

mattsmith
10-18-2007, 02:01 AM
Its only drums guys, it ain't life or death.[/FONT]

But see Jon this is specifically the issue. For a large number of musicians it is life and death as it should be. There isn't a single innovator in all of percussion who ever thought it was only drums.

And thank God huh?

Now this doesn't downplay others who see it as something less, and I for one have gone out of my way to not to criticize that point of view, and there are even aspects of drumming where I do personally see it as something less.

But read my posts. I'm only responding to the jazz snob BS. Still I think that in the spirit of that there should be more respect for those guys who gave up everything to be permanent contributors, and less of people seeing that as something foolish, because it's really not. And they weren't just jazz guys anyway. It's only another point of view that can only be seen as a positive.

brittc89
10-18-2007, 02:11 AM
Its only drums guys, it ain't life or death.
For you. Those are the key words, for you.

Deltadrummer
10-18-2007, 02:13 AM
I was reading the RIAA top grossest albums of all time, and number six is Back in Black.

It is believed that Kind of Blue is the most well sold jazz album at 3 million. I read several years back that A Love Supreme had only sold 250, 000. Since I had owned four of those copies, twice on vinyl, twice on CD (I went out and bought the 20-bit re-master.) I thought, "how many people have really heard that if many have purchased it more that once."


There is a very important turning point in American music history that is not well-known, the Astor Place Riot. It happened (I think) in July of 1848 at The Astor Place Theater in NYC; it really set the direction of American music, well anyway as I see it. In a nut shell, the masses wanted a popular art, the elites wanted a European based art. I don't remember the exact count but I think 12-13 people died..


Is art a matter of life and death? If you are an artist, it can be a life or death situation.:)

Jon Cable
10-18-2007, 02:24 PM
For you. Those are the key words, for you.

Appreciated, but my point was that there are a number of people on here who critcise the less cerebral drummers out there for their style/abilities etc and, if it is life or death, then do you still only play exactly the style/genre that you want? And if that style/genre doesn't pay the bills, do you then allow yourself to become homeless/friendless/familyless rather than compromise your true beliefs?? No you dont. You get a job that pays the bills and pursue your 'calling' in your spare time.
So not only is it not a matter of life or death for me, its not a matter of life or death for any of us who are sat in our homes [or parents homes] using the internet.
I have no problem at all with someone who is completely dedicated to music/art in any way BUT it should be acknowledged that there are very few people who refuse to compromise in any way and still retain success. Its also very easy to refuse to compromise to achieve further success when you're doing well [hence my Zappa comment]
I stand by my statement that it is not life or death until someone on here dies as a result of refusing to accept less than their personal perfection, because thats what life or death means in this debate.
I work as a nurse now, but at one time in my life was homeless, rejected and suicidal and I would have done ANYTHING to make money then.
Until any of us have stood at the brink we do not know what we are capable of, I pray that none of the forum members fall as far as I did, but to be honest the 'fall' made me a better person. We need to appreciate the work that any pro has put in; some of the 'pop/punk' guys tour in vans for years before they get any sorta break, isn't that as admirable as 'woodshedding' in a comfortable, warm practice room for 4 hours a day??
I dont mean any offence guys, this has been a great thread, but you will never convince me that drumming or any art is a matter of life and death, and if it is to you then I would suggest you re-examine your life as you may not be being realistic.

Jon Cable
10-18-2007, 02:28 PM
I was reading the RIAA top grossest albums of all time, and number six is Back in Black.

I hope you mean 'top grossing', as in sold the most??? Although I'm sure that many on here would agree with the 'grossest' awards too!!! LOL!

aydee
10-18-2007, 02:29 PM
I've particularly enjoyed the 'who suffers the most for their art' discussion between Erik, Matt and Delta! I was waiting for someone to threaten to surgically remove both their hands before they'd play an AC/DC tune!
I'll continue to be unfairly rude about anyone whos more successful than me...the big qustion is...how do we judge that success??
In jazz snob terms it would be playing fantastically eloquent arrangements to a totally empty room and paying for hire of the venue, apparently. In my terms it would be playing something easily within my comfort zone to a crowd of 30,000 every nite for millions of dollars! Just a personal preference...
And before the more cutting amongst us start to criticise me....morals are a wonderful thing, its very easy to say 'I would never do that' when you don't have to. A few years ago I assaulted a number of people for cash rewards, something I'm neither proud nor ashamed of now, but it was the only way I could provide for my family at that time, so I KNOW there is no such time as never. I don't put this information on here for any other reason than I am sick of being preached to by people who have never been in a situation that pressurised.
Its only drums guys, it ain't life or death.

Jon, you are still the best : )!

Jon Cable
10-18-2007, 02:33 PM
Jon, you are still the best : )!
Aydee, you are chairperson of the smallest fan club in the world! Thanx for your support, nice to know I'm not totally despised!! LOL!

mattsmith
10-18-2007, 03:19 PM
Appreciated, but my point was that there are a number of people on here who critcise the less cerebral drummers out there for their style/abilities etc and, if it is life or death, then do you still only play exactly the style/genre that you want? And if that style/genre doesn't pay the bills, do you then allow yourself to become homeless/friendless/familyless rather than compromise your true beliefs?? No you dont. You get a job that pays the bills and pursue your 'calling' in your spare time.
So not only is it not a matter of life or death for me, its not a matter of life or death for any of us who are sat in our homes [or parents homes] using the internet.
I have no problem at all with someone who is completely dedicated to music/art in any way BUT it should be acknowledged that there are very few people who refuse to compromise in any way and still retain success. Its also very easy to refuse to compromise to achieve further success when you're doing well [hence my Zappa comment]
I stand by my statement that it is not life or death until someone on here dies as a result of refusing to accept less than their personal perfection, because thats what life or death means in this debate.
I work as a nurse now, but at one time in my life was homeless, rejected and suicidal and I would have done ANYTHING to make money then.
Until any of us have stood at the brink we do not know what we are capable of, I pray that none of the forum members fall as far as I did, but to be honest the 'fall' made me a better person. We need to appreciate the work that any pro has put in; some of the 'pop/punk' guys tour in vans for years before they get any sorta break, isn't that as admirable as 'woodshedding' in a comfortable, warm practice room for 4 hours a day??
I dont mean any offence guys, this has been a great thread, but you will never convince me that drumming or any art is a matter of life and death, and if it is to you then I would suggest you re-examine your life as you may not be being realistic.

I think we have a communication misunderstanding here. I for one am speaking of the general premise of respecting innovaters who do/did give up everything to push music past barriers, and yeah in some cases that included their lives, without punking that or just calling obvious non sell outs "snobs." Now sometimes that's based on a stupid perception, like Bonham's belief that all those drugs made him a better player. A lot of jazz musicians used to think like that too. But still there are the others who gave up the easier road to pursue artistic excellence at the expense of livelihood that yeah, affected their lives to the point of making their choices life and death choices.

Then there are all those thousands in the former Soviet Bloc and during the Chinese Cultural Revolution who were actually taken out of their homes, imprisoned or shot for not playing state run music at the expense of their own. Or the Swing Kids in the Hitler era who were pulled out of their homes and thrown on front line battlefields without weapons to defend themselves. These weren't hypothetical points made by kids hiding behind computers, they actually happened.

Why do people here have such difficulty understanding the difference or refusing to accept that others see music as life and death simply because they don't?

Jon, I for one am too young and immature to judge you or your life based on your decisions, and I would never want that judgement ever coming my way. But I agree with Britt by saying that yeah drumming is because of your personal understandings not life and death for you. And by saying that we merely acknowledge the issue is not always this way for others... and time and time again history has proven that.

I have yet to see anyone on this thread call you out personally. I think people here like you too much to ever do that. Some here were only ticked off with zappafan for punking others who refused to sell out because he would, although he admitted he wasn't even enough of a player for it to have mattered. That's a big difference. But to paraphrase you: It's only a thread on an Internet drum forum, and it certainly without a doubt isn't life or death.

Back to algebra.

aydee
10-18-2007, 03:22 PM
I think jon brings up the really interesting point about the virtues of a zoned in, single-minded focus on our art and passion, if you can afford that versus having to deal with life, and everything it can throw at you, while and trying to find a manageble compromise with our musical soul.

...thats life, I guess. no blacks or whites...only greys...

mattsmith
10-18-2007, 03:36 PM
I think jon brings up the really interesting point about the virtues of a zoned in, single-minded focus on our art and passion, if you can afford that versus having to deal with life, and everything it can throw at you, while and trying to find a manageble compromise with our musical soul.

...thats life, I guess. no blacks or whites...only greys...

I get that.

I just got the feelin' that he thought people were personally attacking him. And I for one wasn't doing that. I was merely going back to the original intent of the thread, that punked anybody who didn't embrace big bucks and arena shows at the expense of a higher calling of art.

But again let's not refuse to believe that people even to this day don't give up their lives for musical convictions. For example do people really not think that jazz musicians in places like North Korea don't consider the life and death issues every day?
And don't think they don't exist there because they do.

aydee
10-18-2007, 04:08 PM
I think someone on an earlier post talked about money or adulation having absolutely nothing to do with the goose flesh that you get from making a musical moment come alive, playing exactly what turns you on....ideally

But ideal is also rare. Not many have the freedom to be true to themselves.

I, for one who genuinely believes that a true musician cannot help but be true to his/her music, and would fail utterly or wither away and die, if forced to be anything other than...

I also believe that I would have made a life choice to be a professional musician, playing my brand of non - commercial music.I did not. Chickened out, sold out....

Because my life is not my own. the usual story... kids to feed. One of them has medical issues, bills to pay...etc etc..

There are the Gandhis, the Charles Minguses, the Erik Lunds of the world who have the enviable mettle to hold firm and swim against the tide.

We need people like them for inspiration, but not all of us can be like them.




..

DogBreath
10-18-2007, 04:25 PM
It's not just the Gandhis of the world who make the tough choices. There is no right or wrong choice here. We all have our priorities, and no one is in any position to judge us except for ourselves. Playing cover tunes to pay your child's medical bills is not "selling out," and may be just as noble as staying true to your artistic vision in the face of political pressure or unimaginable odds against financial success. We are a brotherhood and I am proud to support all who use a pair of sticks to make their way in this world.

That Guy
10-18-2007, 05:35 PM
We are a brotherhood and I am proud to support all who use a pair of sticks to make their way in this world.

Hey DB, can I borrow $1000 bucks for a deposit on a new house? I'll pay you back.. I promise.

LiveGoat
10-18-2007, 05:43 PM
Amen, DB.

EVERYBODY wants to make a living doing something they love. Very few are able to. Paganini and Mozart were obsessed with their finances. There's no magic recipe for doing it. Whether you have great massive chops or not, you're still gonna have to work your nards off. Unless you don't happen to have nards, in which case you'll have to work something else off, but nevertheless! With regards to standards of the art being upheld, who can say? Are there ever going to NOT be uber drummers out there? Are they really dying out? I see more now than ever and I'm still bored to death by most of them. I just hate the idea of music as some institution with standards that need to be defended against the rabble. Meg white is a drumer. Buddy Rich is a drummer. Vinnie C. is a drummer. I don't care about their chops, all I care is that the music of which they each contribute to making entertains me. Humans love rules. To bad they don't exist in music. Or any of the arts, for that matter.

--LG

Deltadrummer
10-18-2007, 05:47 PM
I was reading the RIAA top grossest albums of all time, and number six is Back in Black.

I hope you mean 'top grossing', as in sold the most??? Although I'm sure that many on here would agree with the 'grossest' awards too!!! LOL!

Talk about a Freudian slip.

dale w miller
10-18-2007, 07:41 PM
Honestly, I need to find this deserted island where all these evil jazzsnobs come from.it's called Manhattan. :)
seriously, jazz has been dying a slow death for sometime now and this comes from a guy who plays in the free jazz/noise genre. the elitist attitude i believe a lot of times is done as a reaction towards most peoples lack of respect for their art and the time & dedication that it takes to be a true master. they see their crowds dwindling while some poorly performed rock music & hip-hop are filling the radio stations & arenas.

I'm trying to combine both my avant garde stuff with some pop sensibilities. I figure I will have my cake and eat it too (with the lobster and Crystal of course). I want to make enough money to be comfortable, but you know, there's some comfy digs in the 1,000,000 dollar range too. Why settle for the Lazy Boy?start a business that runs without you being there so you can play whatever and however you want. i've done both and that is the best angle by far that i've figured out.



But, is it ok for there to be NO value judgement outside of popularity for those who decide to make drumming their passion and life's work? In other words, is Phil Rudd just as valid a player as Terry Bozzio? I say no.

i agreed with most of your comment but this one bothers me. Phil Rudd has influenced as many if not more to play drums with a pocket even Terry will tell you he doesn't have.

Jon Cable
10-18-2007, 09:00 PM
I think we have a communication misunderstanding here. I for one am speaking of the general premise of respecting innovaters who do/did give up everything to push music past barriers, and yeah in some cases that included their lives, without punking that or just calling obvious non sell outs "snobs." Now sometimes that's based on a stupid perception, like Bonham's belief that all those drugs made him a better player. A lot of jazz musicians used to think like that too. But still there are the others who gave up the easier road to pursue artistic excellence at the expense of livelihood that yeah, affected their lives to the point of making their choices life and death choices.

Then there are all those thousands in the former Soviet Bloc and during the Chinese Cultural Revolution who were actually taken out of their homes, imprisoned or shot for not playing state run music at the expense of their own. Or the Swing Kids in the Hitler era who were pulled out of their homes and thrown on front line battlefields without weapons to defend themselves. These weren't hypothetical points made by kids hiding behind computers, they actually happened.

Why do people here have such difficulty understanding the difference or refusing to accept that others see music as life and death simply because they don't?

Jon, I for one am too young and immature to judge you or your life based on your decisions, and I would never want that judgement ever coming my way. But I agree with Britt by saying that yeah drumming is because of your personal understandings not life and death for you. And by saying that we merely acknowledge the issue is not always this way for others... and time and time again history has proven that.

I have yet to see anyone on this thread call you out personally. I think people here like you too much to ever do that. Some here were only ticked off with zappafan for punking others who refused to sell out because he would, although he admitted he wasn't even enough of a player for it to have mattered. That's a big difference. But to paraphrase you: It's only a thread on an Internet drum forum, and it certainly without a doubt isn't life or death.

Back to algebra.
Matt, I certainly wasn't digging at you nor did I feel others were digging at me, and I do agree that, in the cases you've stated, music/art can be life or death BUT we [thank the good Lord] aren't in those positions and should, hopefully never be.
I have been a little agitated for a number of reasons, and this is not a criticism of anyone, but when I was in my late teens and early 20s and still living with my folks I became a 'pro drummer' and it was great; I gigged and toured and had no worries, but then trying to live on my own and pay bills [and eat!] I had to become a 'semipro' cos drums didn't pay enough!!
I admire your passion Matt, and I hope you never lose it, but it is a young mans passion [or a free mans!!]; if you don't work this week there will still be food on the table. Please understand that I am not demanding that everyone leaves home at 15 and pays their own way etc I just know from experience that as I've aged my passions have become a little diluted.
Realism spoils everyones life at some stage, we older drummers need you young guys to kick our a***s now and again and keep us passionate!!
The original thread was asking us to lighten up on the pros, but why should we? If one chooses to be a professional in the public eye [even jazz drummers sometimes perform to an audience! Lol] then one must expect criticism as well as adulation!! I have respect for all who play, either well or badly [me], or amateur or pro, but that gorilla playing like Phil Collins is my fave!!! I have given a link cos I dont think this ad is on US tv....
Matt, is this guy a 'jazz snob'???http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy52yueBX_s

mattsmith
10-18-2007, 09:03 PM
it's called Manhattan. :)
seriously, jazz has been dying a slow death for sometime now and this comes from a guy who plays in the free jazz/noise genre. the elitist attitude i believe a lot of times is done as a reaction towards most peoples lack of respect for their art and the time & dedication that it takes to be a true master. they see their crowds dwindling while some poorly performed rock music & hip-hop are filling the radio stations & arenas.

start a business that runs without you being there so you can play whatever and however you want. i've done both and that is the best angle by far that i've figured out.

i agreed with most of your comment but this one bothers me. Phil Rudd has influenced as many if not more to play drums with a pocket even Terry will tell you he doesn't have.

Good points. I forgot about Manhattan. Those guys are are unique in of themselves. But to be fair they are that way about ALL THINGS...not jazz jazz...or any form of music. And yeah, your reasons for their attitudes about jazz are most likely true but probably misplaced. Its as my grand dad likes to say: Jazz living or dying has nothing to do with what people think or like, especially now. Jazz is what it is and lives or dies on its own terms. In other words it's already out there and it's built to last despite what the public thinks of it now.

When people are looking for traces of us in 10,000 years, they are going to study and write about what they found out about Stravinsky and Coltrane over Britney Spears every time. Now I'm sure there is somebody who will now want to reply Well how do you know, when common sense has to eventually play into this.

mattsmith
10-18-2007, 09:27 PM
Matt, I certainly wasn't digging at you nor did I feel others were digging at me, and I do agree that, in the cases you've stated, music/art can be life or death BUT we [thank the good Lord] aren't in those positions and should, hopefully never be.
I have been a little agitated for a number of reasons, and this is not a criticism of anyone, but when I was in my late teens and early 20s and still living with my folks I became a 'pro drummer' and it was great; I gigged and toured and had no worries, but then trying to live on my own and pay bills [and eat!] I had to become a 'semipro' cos drums didn't pay enough!!
I admire your passion Matt, and I hope you never lose it, but it is a young mans passion [or a free mans!!]; if you don't work this week there will still be food on the table. Please understand that I am not demanding that everyone leaves home at 15 and pays their own way etc I just know from experience that as I've aged my passions have become a little diluted.
Realism spoils everyones life at some stage, we older drummers need you young guys to kick our a***s now and again and keep us passionate!!
The original thread was asking us to lighten up on the pros, but why should we? If one chooses to be a professional in the public eye [even jazz drummers sometimes perform to an audience! Lol] then one must expect criticism as well as adulation!! I have respect for all who play, either well or badly [me], or amateur or pro, but that gorilla playing like Phil Collins is my fave!!! I have given a link cos I dont think this ad is on US tv....
Matt, is this guy a 'jazz snob'???http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy52yueBX_s

1. No that guy can't be a jazz snob. He holds his sticks wrong silly.

2. Jon, you're right about the young man's passion stuff. Absolutely, who am I to judge?

I'm only reflecting on my live at home role models who do lead this life, have made the incredible sacrifices again and again, did all the extra work, kept their noses clean, gave up all the money and continue to stay in this business on their own terms when it would have been so much easier to have gone the other way about a million different times. Let's don't discount them are their POV either because they do exist.

I also agree with what DB said about the hospital bill thing, because they too are high value ethical compromises. But come on, we were originally talking about the premise that anyone would sell out in a minute if they had the chance, and that's supposedly the reason why some don't try as hard. We both know the difference between that and what we're talkin' about there.

Jon Cable
10-18-2007, 10:28 PM
See what ya mean about the gorillas grip, just not right!! LOL! To be honest Matt I still got some principles musically; I really dont like being a student nurse [like the job, hate the studying!!] BUT wouldn't drop it for just any drumming job. It would have to be a job I enjoyed because to simply tolerate it would mean I would be no better off than I am now!
I feel that the Phil Rudds of the world are lucky and cursed; he makes a fortune, hes a star, but does he realise that he's not the best drummer in the world? Does he care? Does Lars Ulrich take lessons and try to improve himself? Cos if he doesn't then he should!!
I would be delighted to be in Metallica but would use the spare time, and some of the money, in trying to be the best that I can be, and if we don't try to do that...then whatever we have is worth nothing.
Matt, you have nothing to justify to me, despite your slightly younger years you have an articularcy and insight to rival a much older guy, I envy your musical knowledge and understanding and wish you nothing but good experiences and happiness.

intooder
10-18-2007, 10:58 PM
Realism spoils everyones life at some stage, we older drummers need you young guys to kick our a***s now and again and keep us passionate!!
You don't need a young guy for that, Jon. Just imagine your profile pic coming to life.

Jon Cable
10-19-2007, 01:39 PM
You don't need a young guy for that, Jon. Just imagine your profile pic coming to life.
I knew I could rely on you to lower the tone, 'tooder!! One of my favourite movies too....

Erik Lund
10-19-2007, 02:28 PM
Matt, can you please add some of your own quotes to the world of music and drumming? I don't want to hear more quotes from people who are so displaced from the world of drumming and music that I need to watch Titanic to get the sense of their feelings...


You keep dropping names and dad's and grandpa's and everyone else inbetween, but I've yet to hear how YOU feel about everything around you. If I were to be extra critical, I would say (of course I'm gonna be extra crtitical) that this might have a reason for why I think that I haven't heard anything yet from you that I feel should be considered as musicality from a musical person, rather than a "hey-check-out-my-fast-hands-and-how-I-sometimes-apply-them".


I feel empty inside *most of the time*. I don't want people to play what's been in front of them...I want people to be scared, I want people to be terrified of what they like...Maybe they'll venture down some path that excites/terrifies them and I won't have to hear their take on the world...they'll be too scared of what's around them to speak about it...

If nobody here has read John Cage's book or Eddie Prevost's' then you should!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hell, read anyone's book - maybe you'll be smarter: read Miles' autobiography, it's a great read and takes about 3 days (Keith Moon's auto too)....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Prévost


I don't know where I'm going with this but.....


My grandfather was the greatest and sweetest man I've ever known. His take on most of the world is how I perceive things. He had this amazing quality to make everyone around him love him - at his funeral there were about 300 people I was sure I'd never met and wondered how he knew them... I never saw so many people-I-didn't-know cry about someone I was totally in love with....He had no business knowing anything about "jazz" but he knew what he liked (" " "" " " " ") and I have never been happier in the aftermath of such a sad/depressing state of affairs... I am not sure where this matters on this board, but let it be known: anything in my world that has been affected by my "Grump" matters more than anything else *not* affected by him... He never met a song stranger than Benny Goodman and yet LOVED my weird "stuff" and wanted more strange endings from me and my friends, as long as he could make some sort of connection to it (one of the happiest moments of my life was when my grandfather told me my music made him happier than anything he'd heard before and wanted me to put out more for him to hear before he passed away...he wanted his grandson to be famous before he passed away, and I achieved a sort of strange realization of that, but not quite how he expected...) Where is this all going? not sure, but if anyone on this board remembers this, then they can expect anything from me and my Grump, emotionally (choked back a few tears...)

mattsmith
10-19-2007, 04:06 PM
Matt, can you please add some of your own quotes to the world of music and drumming? I don't want to hear more quotes from people who are so displaced from the world of drumming and music that I need to watch Titanic to get the sense of their feelings...


You keep dropping names and dad's and grandpa's and everyone else inbetween, but I've yet to hear how YOU feel about everything around you. If I were to be extra critical, I would say (of course I'm gonna be extra crtitical) that this might have a reason for why I think that I haven't heard anything yet from you that I feel should be considered as musicality from a musical person, rather than a "hey-check-out-my-fast-hands-and-how-I-sometimes-apply-them".



Erik when I seek out opinions on the level you attempt, I go to full time professional musicians who avoid the self absorption angle and can actually accept the concept that the earth revolves around the sun and nowhere else.

That's my own quote BTW.

IMO your routine has worn a bit thin while this devaluation snub was off topic anyway. You're a talented guy and I wish you the best.

Steamer
10-20-2007, 01:14 AM
Now i'm back from my recording session and still pissed as hell with Mr Arrogant rock star's comments. I'll add some further comments of my own. It seems to me that the great jazz players like Jack Dejohnette as mentioned as well as countless others have better things to do with their time and could care less about putting down other players no matter what they do or chose to play. It would appear from my experience that it's other players and ignorant weak minded individuals throwing the insults at jazz players for no good reason for whatever reasons only known to them. Who's the arrogant ignorant one in question at the moment well that would be Mr. Steward Copeland who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind you can be rich,foolish,ignorant and insulting all rolled into one when it comes to the subject of jazz players and the music and spitting on the graves of the truly great innovators to boot well your at. Give this guy a one way ticket to space.

That Guy
10-20-2007, 01:18 AM
I'm going to go and drink now. This thread has become multiple personal conversations within itself. It's a great read, but it gives me a headache. Everyone has very valid and substantial points, but they all come down to opinon and flavor my friends. Thats it, thats all. How many times can someone make the same point over and over again and not be able to understand or should I say acknowledge that there is a difference in opinon and taste? It appears that way. Humility allows for learning, and nobody's point is above anyone elses.

There is NO solid truth when it comes to the arguments presented. Only educated and personal opinions.

Bottoms up my friends. :-)

TopCat
10-20-2007, 01:28 AM
I do love Stewart Copeland. What will that crazy kid do next?

Derek
10-20-2007, 01:34 AM
Stewart Copeland said that ? What a disappointment. Proof once again that where you find arrogance , ignorance is very close by.
He must have ate his heart out when Sting used Omar on his first solo album.
Hats off to you jazz musicians.
I'm currently mainly a rock / r&b drummer, but working on my jazz. Maybe someday ...

That Guy
10-20-2007, 01:37 AM
I do love Stewart Copeland. What will that crazy kid do next?

Kinda off topic: Hopefully he will stop bi**ching about Sting's vocals and just commit to the music.

TopCat
10-20-2007, 01:40 AM
Kinda off topic: Hopefully he will stop bi**ching about Sting's vocals and just commit to the music.

I literally just came through the door after seeing them tonight and his vocals were top notch considering. Cracking gig.

That Guy
10-20-2007, 01:51 AM
I literally just came through the door after seeing them tonight and his vocals were top notch considering. Cracking gig.

What Copeland fails to realize is that Sting has never stopped working. Sure, Sting is older, and with age comes somewhat of a breakdown of talent, but Sting is still ontop of his game. Too bad Copeland can't say the same. I love Stewart, I love his drumming, I love the Police... and he needs to support Sting. They aren't getting any younger.

TopCat
10-20-2007, 01:53 AM
What Copeland fails to realize is that Sting has never stopped working. Sure, Sting is older, and with age comes somewhat of a breakdown of talent, but Sting is still ontop of his game. Too bad Copeland can't say the same. I love Stewart, I love his drumming, I love the Police... and he needs to support Sting. They aren't getting any younger.

word.20000000000000000000000000000000000

Erik Lund
10-20-2007, 02:07 AM
It's funny to read that Copeland stuff and have so many people (that I know) refer to him as a jazz drummer or "jazzy" (oh I hate that word).

Deltadrummer
10-20-2007, 02:42 AM
I'm going to go and drink now. This thread has become multiple personal conversations within itself. It's a great read, but it gives me a headache. Everyone has very valid and substantial points, but they all come down to opinon and flavor my friends. Thats it, thats all. How many times can someone make the same point over and over again and not be able to understand or should I say acknowledge that there is a difference in opinon and taste? It appears that way. Humility allows for learning, and nobody's point is above anyone elses.

There is NO solid truth when it comes to the arguments presented. Only educated and personal opinions.

Bottoms up my friends. :-)


Excepting yours I guess.

That Guy
10-20-2007, 02:44 AM
Excepting yours I guess.

Explain please. I would like to know why you disagree with my post.

Deltadrummer
10-20-2007, 04:22 AM
Explain please. I would like to know why you disagree with my post.


If you say, "there is no solid truth when it comes to the arguments presented here. Only educated and personal opinions" You are stating something as "solid and absolute truth." It is absolutely binding.

To say that there is no objective truth is to state an objective truth, so any relativistic argument will always get wrapped up in this fallacy. To say that all arguments are equal or just a matter of opinion is to state an absolutely binding argument to which all other arguments must adhere. So that argument is then not mere opinion but fact.

I make no bones about the way I feel about drummers. Some drummers are better than others. Some music is better than others. Miles Davis is more talented than any of the members of AC/DC, or all put together and it is a tragedy that we get the same crap slammed down our throats year after year while a lot of great music goes unnoticed.

That Guy
10-20-2007, 04:24 AM
If you say, "there is no solid truth when it comes to the arguments presented here. Only educated and personal opinions" You are stating something as "solid and absolute truth." It is absolutely binding.

To say that there is no objective truth is to state an objective truth, so any relativistic argument will always get wrapped up in this fallacy. To say that all arguments are equal or just a matter of opinion is to state an absolutely binding argument to which all other arguments must adhere. So that argument is then not mere opinion but fact.

I make no bones about the way I feel about drummers. Some drummers are better than others. Some music is better than others. Miles Davis is more talented than any of the members of AC/DC, or all put together and it is a tragedy that we get the same crap slammed down our throats year after year while a lot of great music goes unnoticed.

Yup, thats right. No other way around it. I'm not trying to argue an opinon about style, taste, deliverance or who I appreciate more. That makes my opinon factual. So, I ask again... why do you disagree with my post?

Deltadrummer
10-20-2007, 05:24 AM
If you believe your opinion is fact and I believe my opinion is fact and we disagree, then one of us is wrong.

If you are stating that there is a difference between statements of taste, "I like this drummer," and statements of fact, "This drummer is good because he is musical in this way or has done "something for the art of drumming" then we are in agreement.

It is my argument that you must distinguish these in any discussion about art. "I don't like ballet" is a statement of fact about my taste in dance. But I can still recognize that it is a great art form separate from my taste for it. I don't have to like a drummer to recognize his talents as a drummer. But I can certainly tell when somebody is bad. I am a teacher. If I could never make a distinction between the right way and the wrong way to play the instrument, I could never hang out a shingle.

aydee
10-20-2007, 05:53 AM
If you believe your opinion is fact and I believe my opinion is fact and we disagree, then one of us is wrong.



Well, then there is his truth and your truth, his facts and your facts. Is the glass half empty or half full ? are zebra stripes black on white or white on black?


I like Pamela Anderson, but I dont think shes a great actress.

I like Copeland's playing. I dont like what he said. I don't agree with his reasoning.


This is music, my friends.A world in itself.

A large body of work, over a period of time, appreciated by many ( I refuse to say how many ) constitutes greatness in my book.

Many on this thread choose to dissect this greatness and study its individual parts breaking it down to technique, genres etc..


...I for one am quite happy enjoying Copeland's furious up- tempo reggae cross sticking on a friday night, or Billy Higgins' unique swing with Art Pepper on Saturday, Vinnie on a Sunday, Ringo on a monday .........

I have a headache too..

Hey, TG, make me one of whatever your'e drinking.......

Derek
10-20-2007, 06:05 AM
Very well put , Aydee.

Deltadrummer
10-20-2007, 06:05 AM
[QUOTE=aydee;370701]Well, then there is his truth and your truth, his facts and your facts. Is the glass half empty or half full ? are zebra stripes black on white or white on black?


My point is that there is his opinion and my opinion but when we believe that they are, let's not say fact but absolute, then one of us is wrong. If we are talking about taste, then it is all well and good. "I like this, oh, you don't, that's cool." But when you say that the value of all music or art is a matter of taste, than you are saying something else. You are making a relativistic argument about aesthetics but stating it absolutely; and that is a fallacy.

The enjoyment of music is about taste sure, I like this, I don't like this. I like Vinnie on a Sunday night but can't stand him on Monday morning drive to work. My friend used to say this and I thought it was brilliant though he never understood why. "There are only two types of music good and bad; and I enjoy them both."

aydee
10-20-2007, 06:34 AM
"There are only two types of music good and bad; and I enjoy them both."

Good or Bad music , according to whom? If you enjoy bad music as well, then it not so bad, isnt it?

I think we are getting dangerously philosophical and are liable to tie ourselves up in knots with semantics : )!

Who decides whats good, whats bad ? I'm not sure, but I would venture a guess and say : my good and my bad.

If I seek an oracle beyond my sensibilities, I would delve into music that has withstood the test of time. Music that has something perpetually magnetic, a lasting quality. Bach, Beatles, Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, Bob Marley, Led Zepplin, Tito Puente, Zakir Hussain...........

I don't love all of it, but all of it is good. Thats your point about about taste.

so, theres: good/I like, bad/ I like, good/I dont like and bad/ I dont like.

BTW, good that you dont drive listening to ' I'm tweaked'. Its not safe; )

Deltadrummer
10-20-2007, 06:49 AM
It all comes down to the basic point that nobody seems to want to grapple with. If you make a statement that the value of art lies in taste it is based on a logical fallacy. That is all I am saying. You can enjoy whatever you want and it's all up to you in the end. But if Vinnie Colaiuta says this guy is a great drummer, I think I'll take his word over some guy in the street.

aydee
10-20-2007, 07:00 AM
It all comes down to the basic point that nobody seems to want to grapple with. If you make a statement that the value of art lies in taste it is based on a logical fallacy. That is all I am saying. You can enjoy whatever you want and it's all up to you in the end. But if Vinnie Colaiuta says this guy is a great drummer, I think I'll take his word over some guy in the street.

Sure. I pretended to like Hendrix as a 14 year old hangin' with older musicians." Hendrix is where its at".Yeah!
Inside, I was thinking this is noisy and tuneless.

Years later, he hit me like a bolt of lightning, and Im going; " THIS is what they meant.

and so it continued through Thelonius Monk, Elvin, Bennink and others, as I continue to evolve

You have raised yet another interesting point:

Is greatness determined by the human race at large, or by the specialists / masters of the trade?

good question. I shall ponder it.

aydee
10-20-2007, 02:13 PM
LOL! You mean that evil monster that started this enitier thing? Nope, haven't seen him mate.

What a pyromanic! Lights up this huge fire, never to be heard from again.

off topic-( TG, talking of pyros, I'm waiting for the YAMAHA tags to dry up a little more, before I torch em ; )

GRUNTERSDAD
10-20-2007, 02:21 PM
QUOTE: is greatness determined by the human race at large, or by the specialists / masters of the trade?

good question. I shall ponder it.

That would be like asking if the Peoples Choice Awards, are more realistic than the Academy Awards. The winners of one group of awards is basically a popularity contest, and the other group is basically chosen by one's peers. I would rather be chosen by my peers than by the masses. To me it would be longer lasting, and would be a truer evaluation. Maybe a new thread is in order??

mattsmith
10-20-2007, 05:37 PM
Copeland has been envious of Sting's fame for years, and will do anything to get primary attention.

Does anyone not remember his attention grabbing comments regarding the quality of recent Police reunion performances? That was classic Copeland.

Sting plays with jazz musicians.

Sometimes extensive evaluation is unnecessary.

Deltadrummer
10-20-2007, 05:44 PM
QUOTE: is greatness determined by the human race at large, or by the specialists / masters of the trade?

good question. I shall ponder it.

That would be like asking if the Peoples Choice Awards, are more realistic than the Academy Awards. The winners of one group of awards is basically a popularity contest, and the other group is basically chosen by one's peers. I would rather be chosen by my peers than by the masses. To me it would be longer lasting, and would be a truer evaluation. Maybe a new thread is in order??


I would not say that a the specialists have an absolute say on what quality is. I was just tilting the scales much more favorably in their direction.:) The academy Awards is really an industry award. An award of peers would be more like from the screen Actor's Guild.

rockinrider
10-20-2007, 05:55 PM
...Sometimes extensive evaluation is unnecessary.

The phrase "We hold these truths to be self evident" comes to mind..LOL!

However, I believe the phrase "For the sake of arguement" rules here!

And so it continues....

aydee
10-20-2007, 05:56 PM
Sometimes extensive evaluation is unnecessary.

In Sting's autobiography he talks about using the Police as a vehicle, a stepping stone to reach a place from where he could play his music. Even though he wrote most of the music, he does'nt seem to have bought into the Police as a musical entity at any point.

It seems like the most pre-meditated move in plotting a music career, and creating an iconic band in the process, almost as a by product, just so that he can jam 12 bar blues with Kenny Kirkland, Branford Marsailes, Omar, Vinnie and gang..

It's all so confusing..

the skin man
10-20-2007, 05:58 PM
Steward Copelands take on Miles and Coltrane is a joke which in my mind makes him a joke.

I actually wonder if what he said was just a straight up joke and he didn't mean it at all. That thing about the love supreme vocals being cheesy might have some validity, but everything else he said is pretty ridiculous. Maybe a fair amount of jazz lacks feeling or it is complex for the sake of being complex, but to say that only difference is that those guys just practice more is outrageous.

Jon Cable
10-20-2007, 06:15 PM
Now i'm back from my recording session and still pissed as hell with Mr Arrogant rock star's comments. I'll add some further comments of my own. It seems to me that the great jazz players like Jack Dejohnette as mentioned as well as countless others have better things to do with their time and could care less about putting down other players no matter what they do or chose to play. It would appear from my experience that it's other players and ignorant weak minded individuals throwing the insults at jazz players for no good reason for whatever reasons only known to them. Who's the arrogant ignorant one in question at the moment well that would be Mr. Steward Copeland who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind you can be rich,foolish,ignorant and insulting all rolled into one when it comes to the subject of jazz players and the music and spitting on the graves of the truly great innovators to boot well your at. Give this guy a one way ticket to space.
Is there something thats upsetting you Stan?? LOL! As you say. the great players in any field dont need to badmouth their peers/predecessors, so on that basis; Mr Copeland wouldn't be considered a great player and therefore his opinions are irrelevant!You all know that I will defend anyones right to their opinion, but to be frank, when I read stuff like the Copeland quotes, I wonder if in some cases people shouldn't be allowed to express their innermost thoughts.....Stan, the HELL with Stewart Copeland; the last thing I saw of him he was a 'celebrity judge' on some ridiculous dance show on BBCtv....hard to imagine JDeJ doing something on those lines....I feel that with power comes responsibility [or was that Spiderman??] anyhoos, when one is in the public eye one has to take the criticism and should always be respectful of others; thats just a part of the price to be paid for the success/fame thing...obviously that concept escaped Mr Copeland [/B][who stole all his 'original' drumming from everyone anyways!!]...you may have gathered I was [B]never a huge fan of SC or the Police, but I'm more concerned about ppl getting upset by others and dont think that the Copeland quotes were relevant apart from to upset ppl like Stan, and Stan dont need these upsets at his age!!!

eglantin
10-20-2007, 06:24 PM
I actually wonder if what he said was just a straight up joke and he didn't mean it at all. That thing about the love supreme vocals being cheesy might have some validity, but everything else he said is pretty ridiculous. Maybe a fair amount of jazz lacks feeling or it is complex for the sake of being complex, but to say that only difference is that those guys just practice more is outrageous.

What he means is that lots of practicing make up for lacking of the humane qualities which he describes as necessary for the blues players. This is most certainly true for metal, another complexified music, which, strangely, has a bluesy current and a bluesless one -national socialistic black metal being another problem not related-. Anyway.
Jazz post-WWII seems to have degenerated into a wankfest of epic proportions. I mean, it's all soloing and circonvoluted patterns of brainy creation quite abstract from any cultural data. Who cares about that apart from nerdy critiques and musicians themselves? You can be a respected shredder in the metal world or a respected soloist in the jazz world, and your music might still be bland, lame, tasteless, boring.
On the other hand, you can play like the guys in the Modern Jazz Quartet. But it needs more than just practicing scales and arpeggios.

So, it may be that a large part of the musicians condemning 'sellout', 'incompetent' pros in the music industry resent the fact that their music ,though complex, has no appeal, while less complex music necessitating maybe less practice but more X factor (feel etc) has great appeal on the general public, therefore enriching the aforementioned pros but putting the learned musician in an ungrateful niche.

Steamer
10-20-2007, 06:57 PM
Is there something thats upsetting you Stan?? LOL! As you say. the great players in any field dont need to badmouth their peers/predecessors, so on that basis; Mr Copeland wouldn't be considered a great player and therefore his opinions are irrelevant!You all know that I will defend anyones right to their opinion, but to be frank, when I read stuff like the Copeland quotes, I wonder if in some cases people shouldn't be allowed to express their innermost thoughts.....Stan, the HELL with Stewart Copeland; the last thing I saw of him he was a 'celebrity judge' on some ridiculous dance show on BBCtv....hard to imagine JDeJ doing something on those lines....I feel that with power comes responsibility [or was that Spiderman??] anyhoos, when one is in the public eye one has to take the criticism and should always be respectful of others; thats just a part of the price to be paid for the success/fame thing...obviously that concept escaped Mr Copeland [/B][who stole all his 'original' drumming from everyone anyways!!]...you may have gathered I was [B]never a huge fan of SC or the Police, but I'm more concerned about ppl getting upset by others and dont think that the Copeland quotes were relevant apart from to upset ppl like Stan, and Stan dont need these upsets at his age!!!

I'll always stood up and put up the honest fight for what I believe in the face of insulting ignorance and pure BS Jon always have always will. As you get older you cut people more slack and let people do and please what they want and let things go but this garbage by SC was enough to fire me up big time without letting it pass.

Like I said earlier in the thread be humble and respectful towards others even if it's not your chosen path and especially towards individuals who have chosen to show great dedication and a level of high quality and honesty towards their musical goals and achievements like in this case jazz players such as Miles Davis and John Coltrane well also doing it with a great deal of feeling which some would suggest is not a quality known to a jazz player. Great art can be a combination of many elements of expression and feeling whether it's immediately understood at the first listen or over time and concentrated listening and understanding is a whole other subject for another thread. To presume that feeling and intellectual achievement and expression don't all go hand and hand is a seriously unfortunate misunderstanding and in SC's case a lame excuse to put down something and put himself above it in a very insulting and arrogant manner showing his complete ignorance in the process about what he speaks.

bballdrummer34
10-20-2007, 07:35 PM
It's funny to read that Copeland stuff and have so many people (that I know) refer to him as a jazz drummer or "jazzy" (oh I hate that word).

I hate the word latin too.

TopCat
10-20-2007, 07:40 PM
Close this thread mods, then sticky it.

mattsmith
10-20-2007, 10:02 PM
What he means is that lots of practicing make up for lacking of the humane qualities which he describes as necessary for the blues players. This is most certainly true for metal, another complexified music, which, strangely, has a bluesy current and a bluesless one -national socialistic black metal being another problem not related-. Anyway.
Jazz post-WWII seems to have degenerated into a wankfest of epic proportions. I mean, it's all soloing and circonvoluted patterns of brainy creation quite abstract from any cultural data. Who cares about that apart from nerdy critiques and musicians themselves? You can be a respected shredder in the metal world or a respected soloist in the jazz world, and your music might still be bland, lame, tasteless, boring.
On the other hand, you can play like the guys in the Modern Jazz Quartet. But it needs more than just practicing scales and arpeggios.

So, it may be that a large part of the musicians condemning 'sellout', 'incompetent' pros in the music industry resent the fact that their music ,though complex, has no appeal, while less complex music necessitating maybe less practice but more X factor (feel etc) has great appeal on the general public, therefore enriching the aforementioned pros but putting the learned musician in an ungrateful niche.

Man, how do you know what Copeland means. Did you ask him?

You then extend your supposed mind reading skills to justify stereotypes of the bitter frustrated jazz musician instead of merely asking one, and for no other reason than to ramrod yet another point that goes absolutely nowhere.

No offense man /because I think you really believe what you're writing/ but you're using direct quotes of real anti- modern jazz political agenda guys like Stanley Crouch and Amira Baraka, except totally out of context. It's like those guys who use Bible verses out of context to make any out there point sound real and qualified. FYI-There was only a 10 year period where jazz was even close to being considered popular music. That whole It's really popular music but pseudo artists try to make it more than it is, is the same crock now that it was when non musician smart guys blabbed it decades ago. The same thing goes for this crowd who try to keep jazz and blues totally separate when that bloodline has been fully blended /NOT derived from/ for nearly a hundred years.

In Sting's autobiography he talks about using the Police as a vehicle, a stepping stone to reach a place from where he could play his music. Even though he wrote most of the music, he does'nt seem to have bought into the Police as a musical entity at any point.

It seems like the most pre-meditated move in plotting a music career, and creating an iconic band in the process, almost as a by product, just so that he can jam 12 bar blues with Kenny Kirkland, Branford Marsailes, Omar, Vinnie and gang..

Aydee are you trying to make my point? I wasn't sure, but this obviously confirms just another reason why Copeland always seems so irritated by Sting, combined with his public low regard of Summers' jazz career, and would prompt the goofy attention getting comments that Jon correctly believes aren't worth anybody's time. Come on, Copeland wanted more Police type stuff. He thought that dream was ruined by his fellow band members investigations of jazz, and he ends up odd man out. Now Copeland uses anti jazz cracks to get the attention he used to get playing his drums. I don't even think you need to be a mind reader to figure out that one. AND it's just my opinion. But I believe it. I didn't just state my guess as fact.

Originally Posted by Erik Lund
It's funny to read that Copeland stuff and have so many people (that I know) refer to him as a jazz drummer or "jazzy" (oh I hate that word).

It's especially ridiculous when used as a verb. Back in the 1920s it used to mean sex. I always crack up when I see a headline that says Jazzin it up.

Originally Posted by TopCat
Close this thread mods, then sticky it.

Yeah a sticky will be a good thing. This has been some thread. Talk about the feelings coming out.

eglantin
10-20-2007, 11:56 PM
Man, how do you know what Copeland means. Did you ask him?

You then extend your supposed mind reading skills to justify stereotypes of the bitter frustrated jazz musician instead of merely asking one, and for no other reason than to ramrod yet another point that goes absolutely nowhere.

No offense man /because I think you really believe what you're writing/ but you're using direct quotes of real anti- modern jazz political agenda guys like Stanley Crouch and Amira Baraka, except totally out of context. It's like those guys who use Bible verses out of context to make any out there point sound real and qualified. FYI-There was only a 10 year period where jazz was even close to being considered popular music. That whole It's really popular music but pseudo artists try to make it more than it is, is the same crock now that it was when non musician smart guys blabbed it decades ago. The same thing goes for this crowd who try to keep jazz and blues totally separate when that bloodline has been fully blended /NOT derived from/ for nearly a hundred years..

Just reread Copeland's words. I was trying not to paraphrase him, sorry if i've been obscure.

Thanks for the names of those guys, i've been checking them out and i might find interesting stuff about the (d)evolution of jazz, a music which i've been thinking for a while now as -gasp- whitified. I think big band jazz has always been popular, so that's more 30 years, on a 80 year old music? i'm no music historian though. My layman's opinion is that jazz has lost his swing in favor of complicated harmonies and offtempo soloing, which i find totally unpalatable.


Also, Stewart Copeland is definitely not a jazzman. He plays pizzica, a southern italian dance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugRCjLtuPFA

mattsmith
10-21-2007, 12:53 AM
Just reread Copeland's words. I was trying not to paraphrase him, sorry if i've been obscure.

Thanks for the names of those guys, i've been checking them out and i might find interesting stuff about the (d)evolution of jazz, a music which i've been thinking for a while now as -gasp- whitified. I think big band jazz has always been popular, so that's more 30 years, on a 80 year old music? i'm no music historian though. My layman's opinion is that jazz has lost his swing in favor of complicated harmonies and offtempo soloing, which i find totally unpalatable.


Also, Stewart Copeland is definitely not a jazzman. He plays pizzica, a southern italian dance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugRCjLtuPFA

First of all thanks for the level tone. I'm not a historian either, but I'm related to some although Erik Lund doesn't like hearing that/lol/. It's always nice to discuss things without a lot of craziness flying in both directions. You're definately the better man here maturity wise, because I was about to get testy again. What a thread!

Naw, big band was only a dominant force for a few years, and it was the only time jazz dominated all music. A lot of people start the dominat popularity of big band as 1935 when an event in California made Benny Goodman the top guy. This dominance then goes all the way to a 1942 recording ban that forbid all recordings of instrumental music. When the ban was listed a couple of years later, vocalists were the primary musical force because they were'nt part of the ban, and big band was waving goodbye. The gas rationing during WWII didn't help that big band bus either.

Steamer
10-21-2007, 01:03 AM
. My layman's opinion is that jazz has lost his swing in favor of complicated harmonies and offtempo soloing, which i find totally unpalatable.



Maybe to you but's that's only your personal opinion isn't it?.Isn't that really the truth of the matter?. Personally as a long time professional jazz player following of the developments of the history of the music to it's current state I don't think so and firmly beleve so.

What's unpalatable to one person might be a amazing musical awakening experience to someone else it's all based on subjective personal biases or non-biases and musical taste, experience,education,wisdom etc... That's THE crux of the whole matter and why I always stress to students in keeping a open mind without making any "pre" judgments before checking something out and always listen to all types of music and jazz music in general and decide what you like and don't like and take what you want or don't want to add to your concept and personal sound.

bballdrummer34
10-21-2007, 05:10 AM
I'm kinda getting confused about this argument. Live music is still here. Some of the most popular drummers of today make a good portion of there living playing jazz gigs. I'm sure all of you know cats like Terreon Gully, Steve Smith, Jeff Ballard, Eric Harland, Chris Dave just to name a few. Wynton Marsalis is selling out auditoriums and so is Branford his brother. It amazes me at what some of you can assume. Also, those cats don't just play jazz, they play funk, rock, fusion, all types of music. Are these guys jazz snobs? Jazz isn't what it was 60 years ago, every body knows that. Jazz is al music. I think heavy metal is sweet. If you ask me thats alot harder and more confusing that some off beat jazz tune. But, yet no one talks about the "rock snobs." There's not much difference between that music and a lot of fusion music that's out there. But all music is changing and fusing. Check in to whats going on in the world before just blabbering on forums. And whats up with the history lessons?

GRUNTERSDAD
10-21-2007, 05:25 AM
Right on my fellow drumming brother. Jazz has evolved just like any other genre. The real snobs are the ones that are stuck on metal or rock music and listen to nothing else and somehow have become expert on something of which they know nothing.

mattsmith
10-22-2007, 02:09 AM
Right on my fellow drumming brother. Jazz has evolved just like any other genre. The real snobs are the ones that are stuck on metal or rock music and listen to nothing else and somehow have become expert on something of which they know nothing.

If bballdrummer is referring to me with the history lessons /and I'm not sure he was/, I was just responding to the other incorrect history lesson I felt I was getting that was supposed to provide the supposed proof for why jazz guys are supposed to be snobs. But otherwise, I totally agreed with your last post and GRUNTERSDAD's 100%.

GRUNTERSDAD has this down pat. Few ever slam the metal drummers in drumming per se because everybody knows that there's serious skill required to do all that. But he's right, a lot of those fans are really out there and just say ridiculous stuff. All you've got to do is visit the Roadrunner website and read the comments under the news stories.

You see it all the time where the fans will post their all time drummer lists and they are entirely 100% metal, where Lombardo is considered some old timer from another long ago era as if he's as old as Gene Krupa. No jazz guys, no Bonham, no Gadd, Chambers or Vinnie C. They start with Lombardo /a great player BTW/ and the only colorful things in the fight are if Travis Barker should be included because he's really pop/punk, was Lars ever metal to begin with? or if Jordison still has his metal soul because Slipknot is too popular. In other words, other than George Kollias and about ten others, nobody even qualifies as a real metal drummers to these guys.

It also couldn't be more obvious that a lot of these fans /not all, but a lot/ listen to only one style of music 24/7, and just assume that everyone else shares the same behavior. But because this is all they listen to they assume many things. Sorry, but any time you pin down a famous jazz drummer to those same lists it's always a broad cross section of many different styles of music, and if you go to jazz forums like allaboutjazz, you will find that those people don't just listen to jazz. They hear everything.

But the weirdest part of it all is when an outsider asks some questions about metal, and God forbid you get a terminology wrong or not recognize all the little sub classifications of metal. Then you're an idiot or something far worse...in other words the same hypocrisy they accuse the jazz guys of when they run out of real things to say, and still want to win some lame argument that never mattered in the first place.

I've never met a pro jazz drummer who didn't think highly of any drummer with skills. I was very happy to room with Tim Yeung at Anaheim NAMM and he seems to respect all good players too, although he's a metal icon.

So what's the prob? If the full time pros get along, then maybe we should figure out a way to bring resolution to our own misunderstandings.

That Guy
10-22-2007, 02:23 AM
If the full time pros get along, then maybe we should figure out a way to bring resolution to our own misunderstandings.

Yes sir. But, I don't know how much those full time pro's really get along. I think they are in the same boat as us, except... they have publicists and managers posting responses instead of answering questions and associating with others personally.

I think that we are in a better seat.

Colonel Bat Guano
10-22-2007, 02:28 AM
So what's the prob? If the full time pros get along, then maybe we should figure out a way to bring resolution to our own misunderstandings.

Finally! Thank you for putting into words what has really bothered me the most about this B.S. thread. No offense to the responders who make their living from drumming, but I think it is so very telling that no "famous" professional drummer (jazz, metal, or otherwise) has been dumb enough to wade into this academic/theoretical quagmire. The old theological argument: "How many angels can fit on the head of pin?" comes to mind whenever I try to read this gasbag of a thread for any length of time.


...

Steamer
10-22-2007, 03:10 AM
Finally! Thank you for putting into words what has really bothered me the most about this B.S. thread. No offense to the responders who make their living from drumming, but I think it is so very telling that no "famous" professional drummer (jazz, metal, or otherwise) has been dumb enough to wade into this academic/theoretical quagmire. The old theological argument: "How many angels can fit on the head of pin?" comes to mind whenever I try to read this gasbag of a thread for any length of time.


...


Myself as a older professional jazz player I have always sat at the sidelines and let the cards fall where they may in regards to what i've read on forums in the past but due to a serious level of incorrect information and general level of insultment directed a jazz musicians during the very beginning of this thread and later on by a well known rock star I have voiced my opinions and concerns on the matter because I believe it's important to do so. But i've learned my lesson that it's just to difficult a subject to debate on a open forum being left to further misunderstanding and interpretations.

Back to playing and making music and listening to a very wide variety of music since it's alot more enjoyable and satisfying.

eglantin
10-22-2007, 03:12 AM
Every music has its elitist listeners/players, and metal certainly has amongst the most annoying ones, since it has become a brainy music. There are very few bands who play complicated riffage and manage to sound great. Meshuggah comes to mind. They say they focus on groove.

Problem with contemporary jazz, and why jazz players are a prominent target for jabs, is that we have people firmly asserting that jazz is a popular music, or should be, when it's really too brainy for the average person to get into. Players want it to be elitist so they can feel good playing a complicated music (or critics! to write about it), while hiding behind the excuse that it's really a fun, honest, generous music made for people to have a good time.

How many times have i heard a jazz musician complain "well you know the audience isn't interested... they just bail out if i dare put a few alterations there, but listen it sounds awesome blablaba". Maybe i've met the wrong ones, and i'm sure i have, but there is a nasty tendency in this genre to accuse the audience when the player himself is not delivering the goods (same in all genres, but in the most brainy ones -jazz and metal- its more severe as the player deems himself educated, learned, well-trained)

I've read some articles from Stanley Crouch and Amiri Baraka (whom i didn't know before you mentioned their names, Matt), and i think they have provided a good analysis of what happened to jazz: most of it has lost its swing and its blues, both elements which provided a solid ground for people to rely to and appreciate, get into the music. The music most contemporary players call jazz is not jazz: it's contemporary improvisational music and has more ties with european harmony than anything else.

It has become a musician's music, just as shredder music in the metal genre. Musicians playing musician's music do not get the recognition they think they deserve, in the sense that the general public doesn't care about their scales and won't fatten their wallets. Some feel bitter and that's what the original poster wanted to express.

You can say jazz has evolved, and to everyone his tastes, but jazz is an american heritage of african populations living in the usa and mingling with its people and culture. It's made of blues, and swing. Dixieland was popular music. Jelly Roll Morton entertained audiences of lay people. Jazz was popular for more than 30 years, before it became a soloist's music, before jazz people began to complain that it didn't appeal to the masses anymore.

I don't want to sound africanocentrist or whatever, but listen to the swing in Country music, or compare Cajun and Zydeco. It doesn't feel the same, at all.
The jazz that the layman enjoyed had this "between-triplets-and-eighth-notes" kind of thing which is predominant in reggae and that you can hear everywhere in Africa.
Without this rhythmic pulse, the contemporary "jazz" is bland, if not annoying: most players think they can swing, because they've been studying jazz (a "difficult" music) for x years, but all they do is play on top of the beat, they swing in eights and it sounds unnecesseraly tense. Most of the audience bails out. Players don't understand why Travis Barker is a millionaire (btw, he has excellent groove).



edit: sorry Steamer i wanted to adress this point you made but forgot
"To presume that feeling and intellectual achievement and expression don't all go hand and hand is a seriously unfortunate misunderstanding"

I think that expression can go with both feeling and intellectual achievement, of course. But i'm afraid expression and intellectual achievement can go their own merry common way, without feeling. Now, what is feeling? i'm beginning to think it's the ability to relate to other people, or evoke cultural data, without the use of intellectual concepts. That's what creates a temporary bond between the performer and the audience, thats when it feels good to listen to music, to experience an artistic phenomenon. As a drummer for example i would like an audience to be carried by the pulse in different ways according to the bpm of the part, i would like them to feel good, just as i feel good when i listen to Bernard Purdie, the Modern Jazz Quartet, Kyuss, etc etc. (Which means my performance has to be flawless -the expression- , and my internal pulse relaxed, natural yet uncompromising -the feeling- )

Steamer
10-22-2007, 03:23 AM
Every music has its elitist listeners/players, and metal certainly has amongst the most annoying ones, since it has become a brainy music. There are very few bands who play complicated riffage and manage to sound great. Meshuggah comes to mind. They say they focus on groove.

Problem with contemporary jazz, and why jazz players are a prominent target for jabs, is that we have people firmly asserting that jazz is a popular music, or should be, when it's really too brainy for the average person to get into. Players want it to be elitist so they can feel good playing a complicated music (or critics! to write about it), while hiding behind the excuse that it's really a fun, honest, generous music made for people to have a good time.

How many times have i heard a jazz musician complain "well you know the audience isn't interested... they just bail out if i dare put a few alterations there, but listen it sounds awesome blablaba". Maybe i've met the wrong ones, and i'm sure i have, but there is a nasty tendency in this genre to accuse the audience when the player himself is not delivering the goods (same in all genres, but in the most brainy ones -jazz and metal- its more severe as the player deems himself educated, learned, well-trained)

I've read some articles from Stanley Crouch and Amiri Baraka (whom i didn't know before you mentioned their names, Matt), and i think they have provided a good analysis of what happened to jazz: most of it has lost its swing and its blues, both elements which provided a solid ground for people to rely to and appreciate, get into the music. The music most contemporary players call jazz is not jazz: it's contemporary improvisational music and has more ties with european harmony than anything else.

It has become a musician's music, just as shredder music in the metal genre. Musicians playing musician's music do not get the recognition they think they deserve, in the sense that the general public doesn't care about their scales and won't fatten their wallets. Some feel bitter and that's what the original poster wanted to express.

You can say jazz has evolved, and to everyone his tastes, but jazz is an american heritage of african populations living in the usa and mingling with its people and culture. It's made of blues, and swing. Dixieland was popular music. Jelly Roll Morton entertained audiences of lay people. Jazz was popular for more than 30 years, before it became a soloist's music, before jazz people began to complain that it didn't appeal to the masses anymore.

I don't want to sound africanocentrist or whatever, but listen to the swing in Country music, or compare Cajun and Zydeco. It doesn't feel the same, at all.
The jazz that the layman enjoyed had this "between-triplets-and-eighth-notes" kind of thing which is predominant in reggae and that you can hear everywhere in Africa.
Without this rhythmic pulse, the contemporary "jazz" is bland, if not annoying: most players think they can swing, because they've been studying jazz (a "difficult" music) for x years, but all they do is play on top of the beat, they swing in eights and it sounds unnecesseraly tense. Most of the audience bails out. Players don't understand why Travis Barker is a millionaire (btw, he has excellent groove).

Yes but this is where you have to be careful about making sweeping generalizations. A current group playing within the traditionals of the history of the music well still having elements of swing and serious groove blended with current leading edge advancements in rhythmn and harmony like the Dave Holland Quintet proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that jazz is still very much alive and well with deep feeling,swing,groove etc... combined with a constant desire to evolve within the long held traditions of the music.

Steamer
10-22-2007, 03:50 AM
edit: sorry Steamer i wanted to adress this point you made but forgot
"To presume that feeling and intellectual achievement and expression don't all go hand and hand is a seriously unfortunate misunderstanding"

I think that expression can go with both feeling and intellectual achievement, of course. But i'm afraid expression and intellectual achievement can go their own merry common way, without feeling. Now, what is feeling? i'm beginning to think it's the ability to relate to other people, or evoke cultural data, without the use of intellectual concepts. That's what creates a temporary bond between the performer and the audience, thats when it feels good to listen to music, to experience an artistic phenomenon. As a drummer for example i would like an audience to be carried by the pulse in different ways according to the bpm of the part, i would like them to feel good, just as i feel good when i listen to Bernard Purdie, the Modern Jazz Quartet, Kyuss, etc etc. (Which means my performance has to be flawless -the expression- , and my internal pulse relaxed, natural yet uncompromising -the feeling- )


Yes but in a culture based on 2 minute take out hamburgers and Britney Spears is it any wonder why it difficult to present more challenging music to the masses?.

The jazz I play is not retro jazz but certainly contains tons of feeling, swing, improvisation and it's really fun for player and listener alike well not stuck in the past but has followed the roots of traditions of the music. Just because it didn't take 5 minutes to throw together and is more complicated in nature and challenging for player or listener doesn't mean that it lacks any human feeling,passion,expression, worth or honest musical validation is my point.

bballdrummer34
10-22-2007, 04:01 AM
Yes but this is where you have to be careful about making sweeping generalizations. A current group playing within the traditionals of the history of the music well still having elements of swing and serious groove blended with current leading edge advancements in rhythmn and harmony like the Dave Holland Quintet proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that jazz is still very much alive and well with deep feeling,swing,groove etc... combined with a constant desire to evolve within the long held traditions of the music.

You beat me to it.
As proved here so far, a lot of us know the history. The way you speak of jazz tells me you don't listen to much of it. Are there some cats whose music may be a little to much for the general public YES! But did that stop Scriabin or Schoenberg? NO! (sorry for the history lesson) A lot of cats today are doing what Debussy did, reinvent the harmony to a point that is enjoyable for all. You cannot tell me you can't hear that in music today. The hip hop generation and jazz is merging all the time. EVERYTHING is merging.

bballdrummer34
10-22-2007, 04:04 AM
Yes but in a culture based on 2 minute take out hamburgers and Britney Spears is it any wonder why it difficult to present more challenging music to the masses?.


This is precisely the reason Pat Metheny and Lyle Mays wrote "The Way Up" Most would say it is too long but you took the time to "live" it, you learn that it is a masterpiece. Plus, did you hear Herbie's latest cd? Man, jazz is mainstream. It's just not on TRL.

Steamer
10-22-2007, 04:19 AM
You beat me to it.
As proved here so far, a lot of us know the history. The way you speak of jazz tells me you don't listen to much of it. Are there some cats whose music may be a little to much for the general public YES! But did that stop Scriabin or Schoenberg? NO! (sorry for the history lesson) A lot of cats today are doing what Debussy did, reinvent the harmony to a point that is enjoyable for all. You cannot tell me you can't hear that in music today. The hip hop generation and jazz is merging all the time. EVERYTHING is merging.

I am quite well versed in all developments in jazz including the 20th century new music approach actually. I don't set personal boundaries or bias when it comes to my listening skills but that's not my personal direction in jazz at the moment even though I have many years of professional experience playing free jazz and new music with some quite well known players in the field actually and respect others of my fellow musicians who have chosen to take that route exclusively. It all becomes part of your experience but i'm staying in the tradition right now but with many other influences and approaches going on thrown into the mix too just like always in what makes up the history and long tradition of playing jazz music.

aydee
10-22-2007, 05:10 AM
Aydee are you trying to make my point? I wasn't sure, but this obviously confirms just another reason why Copeland always seems so irritated by Sting, combined with his public low regard of Summers' jazz career, and would prompt the goofy attention getting comments that Jon correctly believes aren't worth anybody's time. Come on, Copeland wanted more Police type stuff. He thought that dream was ruined by his fellow band members investigations of jazz, and he ends up odd man out. Now Copeland uses anti jazz cracks to get the attention he used to get playing his drums. I don't even think you need to be a mind reader to figure out that one. AND it's just my opinion. But I believe it. I didn't just state my guess as fact.





Not making a specific point, really, Matt. Except to say that it is pleasantly surprising to me that a commerically successful superstar, making mega bucks, playing the big stadiums ..achieves the so-called end objective, as defined by the original point of this thread, with the creation of the supersuccessful band, POLICE...

....and then moves on from there because.. THAT was'nt HIS end objective.

Zappafan argued that I would drop everything I do musically, if I ever got a call from METTALICA..


Copeland, if he made those comments ( personally, I dont think he would be stupid enough to say it publically, or if he did, maybe, it was tongue in cheek, and not intended to be taken seriously..)
is an idiot for saying all that.

I agree with Steamer. If any serious musician playing any genre, trash talks another genre, the he really isnt a serious pro, IMO. All it demonstrates is a lack of musical maturity that you can see from miles away.

That Guy
10-22-2007, 03:50 PM
I agree with Steamer. If any serious musician playing any genre, trash talks another genre, the he really isnt a serious pro, IMO. All it demonstrates is a lack of musical maturity that you can see from miles away.

I saw and interview with TOOL just a few days ago. Maynard and Danny Carey in true TOOL fashion *cryptically* slammed the bands Limp Bizkit & Slipknot. When asked why they felt that way they both echoed something along the lines of..."there is no originality or anything that the fan has to work for in that type of music. It's dry, tasteless and plain horrible." Maynard also went on to add... "thats the reason why TOOL controls 100% of its music. Becuase if the record company got involved, TOOL wouldn't be TOOL, it would be another band controlled by someone else and have its direction dictated by the dollar, not by the musicians." They were pretty much trash talking that entire genre of music and the industry in general.

So, that is a lack of musical maturity? Or are these guys dead on and one step ahead of everyone else?

aydee
10-22-2007, 06:27 PM
So, that is a lack of musical maturity? Or are these guys dead on and one step ahead of everyone else?

Teeg! In my view its one thing have internal clarity. I also think its important for musicians to have strong views, and personal standards, what you accept , what you dont etc ....beneath which everything else is BS.

I have my BS list too. and I might even consider all of them on that list to be less evolved musically than me.

But I would have a hard time dissing them publically because I know that fundamentally , everything is valid to at least somebody.

There are millions of tibetian monks that rock on guttural chanting for hours and hours..

Tool, like U2 and some other bands and artists have fought and won against a system, but being viciously protective of their music. They didn't let it be contaminated by the industry definitions or existing trends. Kudos to them.

Therefore, you are right, they are a step ahead, even if they slam Slipknot and LB in the process. It seems to me that they were using these bands as examples of media/industry driven 'fast food' that is dished out indiscriminately . Personally, I dont find that kind of arrogance appealing.

To me, your example is more about TOOLs stand against industry mediocrity, rather than a specific genre of music.

I think I've completely tied myself up in knots.. I hope you understand what I mean.

That Guy
10-22-2007, 07:38 PM
Cool. I understand, and my question was a generally focused on the industry itself, but I was able to tie in some trash talking with it. But, ya... I agree with you 100% and I'm glad that you were able to see my question for what it was.


Teeg.

Deltadrummer
10-22-2007, 08:10 PM
I think that what being a professional musician entails is much different than what people get into playing the drums for. Most guys listen to Tool or Led Zep or the Beatles or Pantera and say that's what I want to do. But for most part, people making a living at the craft compromise, playing music you don't particularly care for: jingles, weddings, etc. to make money so you can play music that you do care for, that Tuesday night jazz gig.

I think the notion that musical creativity is genre specific is a pretty recent notion. Mozart wrote opera, Symphonies, concertos and popular music theater like The Magic Flute. Genre today seems to be a marketing ploy that reacts to the type of elitism and snobbery that people talk about; and let's face it, as said, elitism is not specific to any genre. I think in today's world you find many more people who just listen to popular music ( and maybe just two of three artists in one genre) than you would find people who just listen to jazz or opera exclusively. The ramblings of Maynard or Carey just play into that. It sells records. But it does also speak to the fact that the more you listen to, the less you are going to be blown away by bands that show little or no ingenuity. Those bands tend to be marketed to kids who have little other exposure to music. It is marketed along with rebellion and lifestyle choices. Like the Porcupine Tree song " the music of rebellion really makes you rage; but it's made by millionaires who are nearly twice your age."

What may be considered musical ( or say conventional) in one genre may not be such in another; but there is a level of musicality that rises about the specifications of genre. There is also an aesthetic experience that rises above taste, that one could refer to as a cultivate or learned taste. It certainly does not take any cultivation to enjoy AC/DC or Limp Bizlit. If you listen to a lot of different music, that will bore you quite quickly.

Sting, I think is a a good example of a songwriter who has been able to mix genre (a very Shakespearean thing by the way) and create some good music. Regatta de Blanc was a brilliant mix of reggae and punk styles, and one of the great rock/pop drumming albums in my book.

That being said, I think there is respect to be given for the snobs and elites who seek musical purity though it may not really exist. American music, for example, is a hodge-podge of styles. The purists quest for authenticity drives against the trends of the market; and though we can enjoy the most trite ramblings of the most banal pop star, I think it is foolish not to realize that the expression of music was made for something more.

aydee
10-22-2007, 08:18 PM
Well said, Deltadrummer!

That Guy
10-22-2007, 11:24 PM
Ya Delta, that was very well put. This thread has certainly had its maze of discussion. Thanks Zappafan.

Steamer
10-22-2007, 11:36 PM
Ya Delta, that was very well put. This thread has certainly had its maze of discussion. Thanks Zappafan.

I liked Delta's post too and believe we've covered some good ground during the thread.


What's important to always remember is that we are all have different interest and goals and tolerance and respect for others is the best source and only hope of success to having us all get along in the complex and varied musical world we all live in.

That Guy
10-22-2007, 11:59 PM
I liked Delta's post too and believe we've covered some good ground during the thread.


What's important to always remember is that we are all have different interest and goals and tolerance and respect for others is the best source and only hope of success to having us all get along in the complex and varied musical world we all live in.

Yes sir, thats what I love about controversy. I love being able to find a new respect for differening opinons that I never gave the time of day until I see/hear the convictions of others on the subject. It amazing, but it does take some humility to really see the big picture. Damn that Zappafan.. lol


Teeg.

LinearDrummer
10-23-2007, 12:08 AM
. This thread has certainly had its maze of discussion. .

Lol - yeah I was just thinking maybe I need a drink to help me undesrtand this thread better :P

Jon Cable
10-23-2007, 12:10 AM
Zappafan seems to have deserted us by this stage, he must have lost interest....shame...

That Guy
10-23-2007, 12:17 AM
Zappafan seems to have deserted us by this stage, he must have lost interest....shame...

Ya Jon, it does seem so. In Zappafan's defense... he was flamed beyond belief at the beginning of this thread.. so he might be choosing to stay away for a bit. Maybe he will come back soon and read the entire thread and realize that there is more mature discussion here than nonsensical flaming. In my opinon his thread deserves to be put in the "Archive Of Great Threads - Past And Present"

Zappafan is dearly missed.

aydee
10-23-2007, 03:34 AM
Hey, Zappafan, I think its now safe to return to this thread.: )

What would top off this great thread would be a summation from you. Having gone through all the reactions from pros , ams,semi-pros, do you now feel any differently?

I would love to know.

Steamer
10-23-2007, 03:46 AM
Hey, Zappafan, I think its now safe to return to this thread.: )

What would top off this great thread would be a summation from you. Having gone through all the reactions from pros , ams,semi-pros, do you now feel any differently?

I would love to know.

Guys I think it may not be his choice whether he wants to post or not in the thread he started since earlier in the thread mod DB indicated to him on the open forum that he might be taking a little unplanned vacation from the forum based on some rather unsavory comments directed at said moderator if memory serves me correct. You can go back and find the post in question and read it yourself {post #76}. I think he's gone bye bye and not by his own choice {?}.

That Guy
10-23-2007, 03:02 PM
Guys I think it may not be his choice whether he wants to post or not in the thread he started since earlier in the thread mod DB indicated to him on the open forum that he might be taking a little unplanned vacation from the forum based on some rather unsavory comments directed at said moderator if memory serves me correct. You can go back and find the post in question and read it yourself {post #76}. I think he's gone bye bye and not by his own choice {?}.

I dont' think he's gone, cuz his member name would appear in different font, (Arial - same one we use in our posting) it wouldn't say Senior Member under his name, he wouldn't have an avatar and his post count would be "n/a." I have noticed that when people are banned or thier membership is terminated the results are what I just mentioned.

I think he is just staying away.

DogBreath
10-23-2007, 06:28 PM
Guys I think it may not be his choice whether he wants to post or not in the thread he started since earlier in the thread mod DB indicated to him on the open forum that he might be taking a little unplanned vacation from the forum based on some rather unsavory comments directed at said moderator...
No, he has not been banned. He is free to comment in this or any other thread that he would like as long as he follows the rules and keeps a civil tongue in his head. I find it sad that someone who starts a thread by comenting about the arrogance of others and how in his opinion there is too much bashing going on then resorts to disgusting personal insults when someone disagrees with him. Maybe he just realized what an ass he made of himself and wants to quit while he's behind.

Ozzy Biz
10-24-2007, 03:39 AM
No, he has not been banned. ..... Maybe he just realized what an ass he made of himself and wants to quit while he's behind.

Before he falls even further behind, as he's certainly not going to get up on top in this thread, me thinks. I'd put this debate in the "best just to forget and move on" catergory for Zappafa.

rhythmjunkie
10-24-2007, 04:50 AM
I just came in. What are we talking about?

aydee
10-24-2007, 05:09 AM
I just came in. What are we talking about?

Nothing and Everything.
Music v/s Celebrity,
Skill v/s Genre,
Jazz v/s Arena rock,
Money v/s Integrity,
Purists v/s Amalgamists,
Opinons v/s Facts,
History v/s Trends,
Steamer v/s Zappafan,
Matt v/s Jon,
Erik v/s Erik,
Colts v/s Patriots,
God v/s The Devil
...ans so on.

I highly recommend that you read this thread in its entirety. You will emerge more enlightened, I assure you.

Steamer
10-24-2007, 05:17 AM
Nothing and Everything.
Music v/s Celebrity,
Skill v/s Genre,
Jazz v/s Arena rock,
Money v/s Integrity,
Purists v/s Amalgamists,
Opinons v/s Facts,
History v/s Trends,
Steamer v/s Zappafan,
Matt v/s Jon,
Erik v/s Erik,
Colts v/s Patriots,
God v/s The Devil
...ans so on.

I highly recommend that you read this thread in its entirety. You will emerge more enlightened, I assure you.

My god what a brilliant and hilarious summary aydee.

bballdrummer34
10-24-2007, 05:47 AM
Nothing and Everything.
Music v/s Celebrity,
Skill v/s Genre,
Jazz v/s Arena rock,
Money v/s Integrity,
Purists v/s Amalgamists,
Opinons v/s Facts,
History v/s Trends,
Steamer v/s Zappafan,
Matt v/s Jon,
Erik v/s Erik,
Colts v/s Patriots,
God v/s The Devil
...ans so on.

I highly recommend that you read this thread in its entirety. You will emerge more enlightened, I assure you.


WOW !!!!!!!
20000000000000000

michael drums
10-24-2007, 04:36 PM
Nothing and Everything.
Music v/s Celebrity,
Skill v/s Genre,
Jazz v/s Arena rock,
Money v/s Integrity,
Purists v/s Amalgamists,
Opinons v/s Facts,
History v/s Trends,
Steamer v/s Zappafan,
Matt v/s Jon,
Erik v/s Erik,
Colts v/s Patriots,
God v/s The Devil
...ans so on.

I highly recommend that you read this thread in its entirety. You will emerge more enlightened, I assure you.

Hey aydee...

Nothing and Everything ----> $1,000,000

Steamer v/s Zappafan ----> $1,000,000,000

Erik v/s Erik ------------> PRICELESS!!


OMG! Now that's funny!! ;-)


Hee...hee....


Great one, aydee!

mattsmith
10-24-2007, 06:43 PM
Matt v/s Jon,


Nope, Matt and Jon get along just fine. Why does back and forth discussion about real issues always have to be v/s?

bballdrummer34
10-25-2007, 06:58 PM
I have a proposition for you all:
How about we ban the word "genre" from the dictionary and call it all music?
What do ya think?
Maybe we can think of a new term that is less segregating?

aydee
10-25-2007, 07:10 PM
I have a proposition for you all:
How about we ban the word "genre" from the dictionary and call it all music?
What do ya think?
Maybe we can think of a new term that is less segregating?

Just last week, my teacher, after my lesson, in passing, mumbled something about the existence of a world beat, and played it on the snare rim. All he did was shift the accents, while the beat remained the same.

It moved from a Ghanian african rhythm, to a samba, to a spang-a-lang swing , to arabic/morroccan, rock, to mazambique, to hip-hop, to Indian Bhangra, and many other styles. He'd call out the style and shift the accents slightly, and behold...it was magical.

He was making the same point but It was truly amazing to see him demostrate it like that

p.s.- btw, killer playing, jay.

dale w miller
10-31-2007, 05:55 PM
I saw and interview with TOOL just a few days ago. Maynard and Danny Carey in true TOOL fashion *cryptically* slammed the bands Limp Bizkit & Slipknot. When asked why they felt that way they both echoed something along the lines of..."there is no originality or anything that the fan has to work for in that type of music. It's dry, tasteless and plain horrible." Maynard also went on to add... "thats the reason why TOOL controls 100% of its music. Becuase if the record company got involved, TOOL wouldn't be TOOL, it would be another band controlled by someone else and have its direction dictated by the dollar, not by the musicians." They were pretty much trash talking that entire genre of music and the industry in general.

So, that is a lack of musical maturity? Or are these guys dead on and one step ahead of everyone else?the Hair Metal vs. Thrash Metal was notorious during their heyday in the 80's with was such as Poison publicly getting bashed by bands such as Metallica. Which is why it is so ironic that Metallica went the direction they did.

Vic_Rattledeth
11-02-2007, 08:41 PM
There are arrogant drummers in all genres of music. I have found that while there are SOME jazz snobs, there are far more down to earth humble jazz players. It's the few jazz snobs that leave a lasting impression on people like the thread maker, and make them build up resentment towards them. Thus threads like this are born.

michael h
11-06-2007, 09:31 AM
Wow! I haven't logged on in a while. Funny thing about so called Jazz drummers and I am not making a value judgment but a lot of the great Jazz drummers didn't have amazing technique and a lot of great Jazz musicians really care about how the music feels. A lot of these guys that get arrogant about technique that I see are more like rock, prog rock and fusion guys. It doesn't matter there will always be a ton of drummers that are more concerned about that stuff than playing music. The snobbery I see from Jazz drummers and by that I mean guys that actually play Jazz gigs is more musically based than technical based. I don't know if that is any better. I go to this jamm session in Harlem sometimes, it is an Organ Jazz Jam session and they guys there are concerned with GROOVE and if you ain't got that, you ain't gonna be asked back up to play.. This is Harlem, it doesn't get much better or authentic than that. I get schooled every time I go.. There was one guy that had the worst technique I have ever seen, but man he had a great feel. This is a misconception about Jazz and Jazz drumming and that it is soooo technical and it ain't always the case. Billy Higgins one of the swingingest drummers of all time was not about technique and the technique he had was built on musical ideas. I used to have more technique, ya know real fast singles etc before I got seriously into Jazz but when I got more into it, I realized it was useless and I would better use my time to work on real basic swinging ideas(RIDE CYMBAL) and start piano to understand melody/harmony better. A lot of Rock guys have better technique than Jazz guys if you are thinking in terms of only speed and not thinking about looseness, touch, dynamics, playing melodically etc...

Gilded
11-06-2007, 10:18 AM
It's whether you like the music or not, and it's unfair to stereotype certain music stylists as snobs. It's not like you know them personally. But who cares how good or bad they play it's how good or bad you play yourself. Or maybe everyones a little jealous of their fame and fortune and want to take it away because theyre half a second of beat occasionally.

Erik Lund
11-06-2007, 03:06 PM
"I used to have more technique, ya know real fast singles etc before I got seriously into Jazz but when I got more into it, I realized it was useless and I would better use my time to work on real basic swinging ideas(RIDE CYMBAL)"


This sentence puzzles me...Check out Nasheet Waits and Jim Black and then get back to me on why jazz drummers don't need *ridiculously* fast singles...


"Erik v/s Erik"

I don't get it...But I like it. (must be jazz! ba-dum-bum!)

mattsmith
03-25-2009, 04:19 PM
I just had to ressurect this thread after I happened upon it today. What a great discussion/rant/fight/intellectual exercise. And interestingly enough it covers many of the same topics being discussed now /Copeland thread etc/.

What a battle this was.