Jazz Rides Redux

[RobertM]

Still testing out jazz rides. My list of interest is currently the following:

- Istanbul Agop Vesir jazz ride (20")
- Bosphorus Masters ride (19" or 20")
- Istanbul Agop SE jazz ride (20")
- Paiste Traditional light ride (20")
- Zildjian K Constantinople medium 20"

I haven't been too impressed with Meinl's new jazz ride ensemble, though I do like Meinl's Byzance Dark hi-hats.

Suggestions?

Regarding hats:

- 15" Paiste Dark Energy
- 15" Zildjian New Beats
- 15" Bosphorus Masters
- 15" Istanbul Agop SE hats

I'm afraid the Paiste DE and Zildjian New Beats may be "too loud," but I know the Paiste DE's would have great chick and presence. I like the Bosphorus Masters, but they sound at times a bit too soft. I also fear that the New Beats 15" may be too loud, but two of my favorite jazz players, Jason Marsalis and Brian Blade, both use 15" A New Beats, according to zildjian.com. (Of course, are those old A's or new A's??)

Thanks for any feedback!

[Bossa Nova]

I think that a 15" anything would be too loud... are you playing big band? If so, a 15" might still be too loud. For combo stuff, I think it's better to use lighter 13"s and have a nice 2" between the hat for a nice firm, resounding chick, than to have heavy 15"s and have to play them spread them like 1/2" apart to lower the volume.

[Steamer]

Still testing out jazz rides. My list of interest is currently the following:

- Istanbul Agop Vesir jazz ride (20")
- Bosphorus Masters ride (19" or 20")
- Istanbul Agop SE jazz ride (20")
- Paiste Traditional light ride (20")
- Zildjian K Constantinople medium 20"

I haven't been too impressed with Meinl's new jazz ride ensemble, though I do like Meinl's Byzance Dark hi-hats.

Suggestions?

Regarding hats:

- 15" Paiste Dark Energy
- 15" Zildjian New Beats
- 15" Bosphorus Masters
- 15" Istanbul Agop SE hats

I'm afraid the Paiste DE and Zildjian New Beats may be "too loud," but I know the Paiste DE's would have great chick and presence. I like the Bosphorus Masters, but they sound at times a bit too soft. I also fear that the New Beats 15" may be too loud, but two of my favorite jazz players, Jason Marsalis and Brian Blade, both use 15" A New Beats, according to zildjian.com. (Of course, are those old A's or new A's??)

Thanks for any feedback!

I'll only add a couple of other Agops not currently on your list.

For rides the Turk Jazz Rides in 20",21" and 22" sizes are amazing jazz ride cymbals. I have one a 22" Turk Jazz Ride at 2250 grams,a real sleaper indeed IMO.

For hats my favorite Agop hats to my jazz ears after testing several different pairs from different Agop lines in both 14" and 15" sizes turned out to be a pair of 14" Agop Signature hats. Mine weigh in at 1025g top and 1200g bottom. Perfect blend of crisp and solid chip {but not to loud and edgy/metalic in regard to the foot sound at all} combined with a very warm/dark/complex and slightly trashy open and closed sound. Jazz high hat perfection for this player.

[Drummer Karl]

For what situation do you need that Ride? Combo playing? As a main Ride...or left side ride?
Also, do you like that washy, smokey sound with woody stick definition, or do you prefer something with more ping and clearance?

Personally I`m going to get myself a light 22" Agop SE Ride if everything works out. I`m very very impressed with that sound, it`s mellow, woody stick, wash, expression...dark.
I`d definitly keep my eyes on those SE rides man. But that is just my preference...

About the hats: Have you already checked out those Agop Turk hats or Signature hats? I wouldn`t worry about 15", a size which can be used in combo playing aswell...just depends on the model.

Another one I could recommend are Agop Traditional hats and Bosphorus Masters hats. All cool pies I think. Let me know what you think... :-)

Karl

[aydee]

For what situation do you need that Ride? Combo playing? As a main Ride...or left side ride?
Also, do you like that washy, smokey sound with woody stick definition, or do you prefer something with more ping and clearance?

Personally I`m going to get myself a light 22" Agop SE Ride if everything works out. I`m very very impressed with that sound, it`s mellow, woody stick, wash, expression...dark.
I`d definitly keep my eyes on those SE rides man. But that is just my preference...

About the hats: Have you already checked out those Agop Turk hats or Signature hats? I wouldn`t worry about 15", a size which can be used in combo playing aswell...just depends on the model.

Another one I could recommend are Agop Traditional hats and Bosphorus Masters hats. All cool pies I think. Let me know what you think... :-)

Karl

Hey Karl, I'm going for my 1st lesson with a new teacher this afternoon.He has a 22" Agop SE Ride! Will let you know what I think.........

[Drummer Karl]

Hey Karl, I'm going for my 1st lesson with a new teacher this afternoon.He has a 22" Agop SE Ride! Will let you know what I think.........

Woah, you almost make me jealous! =)
Yeah, please tell me then...I just love those (of course that depends on the particular pie) but in general they have great sound characteristics!

Thanks aydee.

PS: Have fun there!

Karl

[Steamer]

The 22" SE rides are amazing either the regular lightweight ones as Karl knows or the SE TW model too IMO. I've got a med weight 21" regular SE and a lightweight 22" SE TW model. Both are superb rides. Just added the 20",21" 22" Turk Jazz Rides to the mix since they were not on Roberts's list to try out since I love them too particularly my 22" sample. Choices!.

[RobertM]

Hey All,

Thanks for the great feedback and questions.

My playing situation is jazz combos (quintets/sextets) at my university--but, I do like to dig into Galactic-style funk and blues, too. (Jazz hats and rides should be somewhat versatile, right?) The ride I'm looking for would be for my main ride. Currently, I use a Zildjian A Armand Ride with 3 rivets for my left-side ride, and a Zildjian K Custom Flat-Top Ride (20) and Bosphorus Traditional medium ride (21) on the right side, though I haven't actually used the Bosphorus in a while. It is a bit too pingy for combo jazz and the flat-top ride handles things rather nicely with its darker sound. Also, when we have played concerts, we are usually forced to use the setup that's there, which is a well-used Paiste Traditionals ride. (At our last concert, I actually brought my Armand ride and junked the K dark crash that was on the left side--I wanted some sizzle and flair, something with more tonality! However, I didn't have time to replace the Traditionals ride.)

So, I'm looking for a really good main ride to match up with my current setup. My Bosphorus Traditional medium is pretty multi-functional, but I fear that it is not exactly right for quartet playing. It sounds like I should really give the Istanbul Agop SE cymbals a close listen. I've been checking them out via cymbalsonly.com, and have been comparing them to Bosphorus Masters rides and Istanbul Agop Vesir rides.

The hi-hat question is equally difficult. I currently use a Zildjian K 14" hi-hat (very traditional choice). I got hooked on to 15" hats after listening to and enjoying Jason Marsalis's and Brian Blade's playing (both use 15" hats--and heavier ones at that, A New Beats). The Bosphorus Masters hats sound nice, but I wonder if they would be too "soft"--meaning, the weights on them are usually very light, and I want to make sure my 2 and 4 chick has presence/can cut through. The Paiste hats seem too heavy, by contrast (Dark Energies--sound great, but too loud??). I also thought the Bosphorus Hammer hats (Jeff Hamilton series) sounded nice via the cymbalsonly.com site, though I don't like the rides.

Would the Istanbul Agop SE hats be a good option? Should I consider 14" vs. 15"? The Mel Lewis 1982 hats sound pretty nice, too, but those are 13".

I feel like I'm drawn to, by both sound and recommendation, Istanbul Agops and Bosphorus Masters. The Zildjians, Paistes, and Meinls all come in after these two.

[Steamer]

Trust me TRY OUT the Agop 14" Signature hats in a med. to med. heavy weight class. I tried a couple of pairs of 15's but the 14's in the weight class I picked are THE cat's meow jazz wise. The 15's in several Agop lines were just to slow to respond to my ears and the crisp and present but warm foot chip was just not there in comparison to my dare I say "grail" pair of 14" Sigs for jazz. You should check out the various Agop Turk Jazz Rides too as I suggested along with the SE's. The Turk jazz models are truly amazing rides especially when you hear them with a trio right up to a sextet on the bandstand and out front Robert. They have a very present dark woody and smokey stick sound over a not overly dry dark spread like the heavier regular Turk rides and they have a very good crash sound even my 22 incher which is very responsive to open up when crashed.

[Drummer Karl]

About the ride choice: I think that a Vezir would work with that Armand well.
Oh, and maybe check out those Agop Signature Ride cymbals, they are very lightly lathed, they open up not as much as SE rides and I think they have a bit more ping.

And about those hats: Well, I found that the SE hats have a tone like warm coughing. If you want something pronounced, with a nice clear chick...Signature hats or Turks should please you well.
And like you said Bosphorus Hammer hi-hats are nice aswell. Pretty thin top and a more heavy bottom for a pronounced chick sound.

My point of view...

Karl

[aydee]

About the ride choice: I think that a Vezir would work with that Armand well.
Oh, and maybe check out those Agop Signature Ride cymbals, they are very lightly lathed, they open up not as much as SE rides and I think they have a bit more ping.

And about those hats: Well, I found that the SE hats have a tone like warm coughing. If you want something pronounced, with a nice clear chick...Signature hats or Turks should please you well.
And like you said Bosphorus Hammer hi-hats are nice aswell. Pretty thin top and a more heavy bottom for a pronounced chick sound.

My point of view...

Karl

Karl. sorry I saw it but didnt play it: ). We were on the practice pad working on fixing my Moeller ( my accents,taps need a lot of work,), and playing some marching band solos.

Next lesson will be on the kit. He is in love with it, tho he has some tape on it to control the wash. the drum room is very small so he says the reflection of the sound is the only reason he has the tape. He thinks its the greatest jazz ride he's every played.will keep you posted.

[Jeremy]

if you're looking for a brian blade-ish hihat sound, you're going to get closer with the agops than new beats. he uses some old 15" turkish hihats that are most similar in hammer and lathe pattern to new beats, but sound closer to bosphorus traditional regular/dark hats.

i'll throw in a suggestion for the bosphorus new orleans ride. it's a really interesting sound, with great woody stick sound and a lot of tone in it. the wash is really low when playing in the middle of the bow, and you almost don't notice it until you stop playing and it's gone.

and as you've heard from most others in this thread, the agop se's are just godly pies. i don't know where you live, but if you get to boston, go to a store called adrums. it's around the corner from berklee, and is on the 2nd floor of a building, so you'll only see a glass door that leads up a flight of stairs, making it hard to find. that store has lots of great new and old cymbals, like pre-split istanbuls, very old to brand new zildjians, ufip, and lots of other stuff. they're also a pretty small place and have good prices

[Steamer]

Speaking of Brian Blade there was a picture on another cymbal forum site posted of him early in Feb. or March this year playing in a club in NY with those 15" old K hats just mentioned and for rides he had two current Agops. The one his right was a Agop 22" Signature ride and on his left a Agop 22" Turk Jazz Ride. The thread and related pictures of the kit and cymbals has long been removed from the net for whatever reason. Had a link to a cache version but that's toast now too. Maybe the PR people at Zildjian didn't take to kindly to it since he's an official Zildjian endorser or at least he was at the time the pics were posted early this year.

[RobertM]

This is great feedback, all--thanks!

Steamer, interesting you mention that Blade was using an Agop signature ride. I started thinking about that ride after listening to some sound files of the Turk rides. Another jazz drummer I've listened to recently, Keith Hall, uses Agops, and his main ride, played in a trio setting (piano, bass, drums), was/is an Agop signature. It sounded great.

I think Zildjian's website is very misleading when it comes to describing their jazz artists. For example, their site says that (or used to say that) Roy Haynes and others use(d) A Customs for hi-hats, but they fail to mention that what Haynes and company use are *old* Zildjian A's or K's (from '40s, '50s, or '60s), not new models. I have a feeling that Jason Marsalis, Blade, and others probably use older Zildjians as well. So, I wish Zildjian would make a note of that on their site, because the current New Beats, or A rides, etc., do not sound like the older models! And I've seen and met Jason Marsalis, and his New Beats are definitely old--they look nothing like current New Beats.

I also noticed that in some of those video files on this site of Elvin Jones from 1991 Jones was using Agops, not Zildjians.

Jeremy: thanks for the reference to the Boston shop. I'm not near there at all, but it is good to learn of more specialty shops! And since you mentioned UFIP being at that store, I just discovered today, from a new photo-essay book that's just been published on The Police, that Stewart Copeland was using UFIP splashes all the way through The Ghost in the Machine sessions. I know he was using UFIP and other cymbals in the late '70s, but he joined Paiste in 1981; however, I think many of his classic splash sounds from Regatta de Blanc, Zenyatta Mondatta, and Ghost in the Machine were from UFIP, and not just Paiste. His crashes by then were definitely Paiste RUDEs and others, but I was surprised to see the UFIPs still in the setup! (Just a footnote.)

Again, those official cymbal websites can be misleading indeed!

[abe]

Well Paiste Trads are also wonderful cymbals.

[Steamer]

Steamer, interesting you mention that Blade was using an Agop signature ride. I started thinking about that ride after listening to some sound files of the Turk rides. Another jazz drummer I've listened to recently, Keith Hall, uses Agops, and his main ride, played in a trio setting (piano, bass, drums), was/is an Agop signature. It sounded great.



Well Robert it took at bit of time to put my Agop collection together after many cymbal testing and comparisons sessions so I guess my point is to check out everything that's a possible candidate even ones you never thought would not be in the running. Hence my suggestion on checking out the med./heavy 14" Sig hats and thin lightweight 22" Turk Jazz Ride model since neither were on my original list to ear test but both turned out to be exactly what I was after. The Sig rides are very nice indeed too and might turn out to be exactly what your after. I just found during cymbal testing a couple of SE rides that really caught my attention and ear. I would also suggest listening to the Limited Edition 22" 06 ride too but I think there is only a very small handful of these still around. I believe the Cymbal Shop is the only place in the US that still has a few left in stock with soundfiles too. The local distributor still had a few left to select from, I got a real keeper of a sample being an amazing small group jazz ride. I was in a good position to hook up with the Canadian distributor for Agop and becoming a official Agop endorser so I had the very good fortune of hearing an amazing cross section of Agop cymbals and I picked what sounded best to my ear both standing alone and how I imagined them fitting into different jazz group situations. That's why I have in particular a wide selection of Agop rides to chose from for different settings and a few different kinds of crash cymbals to chose from too. I have a couple more Agops in mind to add down the road to be released around the time of the Winter NAMM coming up but right now i've got a ride for every type of jazz group application and room or studio setting I encounter. If you looking for just the right single ride cymbal right now listen to everything you can and even better if possible in person since soundfiles only tell so much of the true "in the flesh" sound story.


Good luck with the ride hunt and see if it's possible you could go to a well stocked Agop shop. If ever in LA you could possibly arrange a visit to the Agop US office there which has a huge selection of Agops to listen to. Just an idea.