Making Bass Drum hits independent from Hi-Hat

[Dauden]

I have A LOT of trouble separating bass drum hits with hi-hats. I have the worst trouble with the simplest beats and it's starting to frustrate me to no end.

Whenever I hit the kick drum off of a hi-hat beat I automatically hit the hi-hat on the kick drum beat. I have tried to slow the tempo down immensely but I still hit the hi-hat with the kick drum.

I doubt I'm making sense with all of this so here are pictures. The 1st one is what I want to do, the 2nd is what I impulsively do.

[Class A Drummer]

Truthfully, its all practice. Unless you do that thing where you shock yourself every time you mess up lol.

[Bossa Nova]

You are making sense, don't worry. Nice diagrams though, BTW.

You can do it-- just slow it down and break it down. Make it so slow that you can not mess it up, even if this is so slow that it makes you question yourself. REALLY SLOW. Then slowly speed it up and have patience.

So, for example, with #1 above: play the two bass drum hits followed by the snare hit, and I'm not talking about within the groove. NO GROOVE--just two bass hits and a snare hit. Then add the first hi hat hit to the first bass hit. Make sure you can do this before adding in the second hi hat to the snare hit. Just speed up this hand and foot combo until you can do it comfortably. Then play the groove SUPER-DUPER slow and incorporate the hand and foot pattern into the end of the groove where it belongs. You can play it in isolation, so just pop it into the groove. You probably won't be able to do it the first time, but don't get frustrated, have patience. There is a speed, possibly incapacitated turtle speed, that you can do it at. Find that speed and slowly get it up to groove speed. Good Luck...

[caprisun3484]

this is something you'll certainly get with time

how long have you been playing

[Fur drummer]

Oh yea, the four way independence thing. Or in this case, two way. I don't know how long you have been playing but I used to do the same thing. What I did was foot exercises just playing the hat and BD. In 4/4 time, the BD on 1 & 3 and the Hat on 2 & 4.

I would start out slow and then would speed up.This got me used to my feet moving independently. After that I would play quarter notes on the BD and 8th notes on the hat and then reverse it. After about a week or two of that, I tried playing doubles and triplets on the BD while playing steady quarter notes on the hat. all with just using my feet, no hands playing the ride or snare. It took a lot of time but I finally got it. Hope this helps.

[zambizzi]

The answer, as it is with anything ANYONE having a problem getting better at something - is slow, slow practice. You can do *anything* at a dramatically low speed...*any* of the crazy chops you see your favorite players doing...if you just do it oh-so-slow. The reality is; you will learn much faster if you do this...trying to start at fast speeds or even musical speeds will just slow your progress.

Start with singles, do them very slowly. Also, check that you're forming a stable tripod between your seat and two feet. If you find yourself leaning or leveraging one foot in favor of the other, you might need to check your seat placement.

Also, I recommend the 4-Way Coordination book. I've been working out of it for a month or so and have seen a drastic difference in my playing. It works!

Good luck! Keep us up on your progress!

[Dauden]

Funny thing is I've been playing for 4 years I think and I basically just worked around this problem. I would say I do some things very well and well some of the basics I don't have down quite yet.

Thanks for all of the advice by the way.

[danander11]

Count, practice, count, practice... SLOWLY!

It will come.

btw.. What program did you use to create your images? I need to find something that I can use. All of my stuff is handwritten and I'm no artist ;-)

[Mr. Pasquini]

SLOW! That's how I've learned all my bass drum technique thus far; be the turtle.

[cnw60]

you can also try breaking it down by playing different combinations of the limbs.

Starting with just two limbs; play feet only, LH/LF only, RH/RF only, LH/RF, RH/LF. Then add one more limb; so the feet with just RH, feet w/ LH, hands w/ LF, hands w/ RF, etc.

once you've practiced all the different permutations - then you're ready to start working everything together.

Practice slow, sit up straight, and breathe...

[Wavelength]

There really is nothing to it. When you really break things down to a microscopic level, there are only three available combinations between the hi-hat hand and the bass drum foot: 1) Just the hi-hat, 2) Just the bass drum, and 3) the hi-hat and the bass drum in unison. Alone, they all should be fairly easy to play, right? The trick here is to learn to play these different combinations in succession.

Like everyone has said before, going slowly is the key. If that part is giving you a terrible head-ache, you should take the last quarter note of the beat and work on it like this:

1) "Okay, the first motion is a combination of the hi-hat and the kick drum; I'll play that right now."
2) "Well, that was pretty easy. Now I should play just the kick drum. *splat* Hey, that wasn't too difficult after all! I wonder what the fuss was all about..."
3) "All I have to do now is to play the hi-hat and the snare drum at the same time -- easy as pie!"
4) "Okay, now I just need to relax for the duration of this last 16th note."

Do this over and over and over and over again. You really should count in four and think about those motions and visualise them. See and hear the bass drum going "boom" without the hi-hat. Once you get more comfortable, start increasing speed. This is a tedious approach, but very, very effective if you are having serious coordination problems.

Another option is to separate and develop the 8th note against two 16th notes motion. Just play a single stroke with the hand and a double stroke with the foot. It's best to use a metronome with this. Again, start slowly and increase the tempo as you gain control of it.

[Drummer Karl]

Wavelength explained it really well.
I think there is just something in your head which is called a brain...this guy says NO!!! when you wanna play the original version.

No biggie actually but it is a well-known problem. For example when orchestrating the left hand part of a paradiddle on the hi-hat and stepping the on-beat eight notes one the hi-hat (paradiddle played in 16th notes)...it`s alright when you`re playing the step hit and the paradiddle seperated from each other but Mr. Brain often tends to say NO!!! when executing it in the other explained way.
So, see the general probelm?? It`s is simple...you just have to build up the neccessary synapses to do it.

So start slowly.
Cut out the part you aren`t able to play.
Get basic inside and think logically. It isn`t a big problem: One hit with hi-hat and bass drum, one hit just with bass drum. Once you did it very very slowly, repeat it again and again!
Then try it slowly in the groove context, be relaxed.

It has much of a psychological problem, when getting frustrated or desperate it is even harder to learn it. Keep it relaxed and develop methods how you can learn it in a good, "safe" way.

Karl

[shuffle]

In addition to the "slow down the tempo" advice, you might want to consider a groove practice technique I got from David Garibaldi's Future sounds.

1) Set the metronome at desired tempo

2) Play the first beat of the measure

3) Let the metronome run to the end of the measure, and play the first beat again.

4) Repeat 1-2-3 until you're comfortable

4) Start adding either 8th notes (or 16th depending on the groove) one by one. Wait until you're comfortable before adding another note to the groove.

Much better explanation in the book. Hope this is somehow clear anyway.

David also suggests to count aloud.

[dea]

You just received a ton of great input. Its also okay to talk aloud what each limb is doing. If you do this slowly sometimes stating it can help your mind separate the two. I don't know if I would go off on a tangent with learning another skill in hopes this will just fall out. I would just keep on this specific beat, play it slow and talk each limb through.

No magic. Just be patient. Everyone has these pet dependencies to some extent. It just takes practice to break this dependence.

[zambizzi]

Wow, shuffle, that's simple yet brilliant. I really gotta get Future Sounds. I'm definitely going to try it! Also, dea, that's a very smart technique - teach the brain by speech, only using limbs rather than counting.

Great stuff!

[DestinationDrumming]

I have A LOT of trouble separating bass drum hits with hi-hats. I have the worst trouble with the simplest beats and it's starting to frustrate me to no end.


You're making great sense. I just tried this and Yeah...I can do it!

Oops sorry I didn't want to show off but a couple of months ago I posed a similar question about a similar groove. I have followed the advice these guys gave particularly slowing down and concentrating on each limb and making sure I was getting it right before I sped up. It worked and now I think yeah, it's just practice and by spending time on this groove you'll look back and think the same.

Keep it up, you'll get there. DW is just such a great place.

[Victor_se]

I had that problem too but like some people say

just a matter of time and PRACTICE just practice a lot and keep it up and you'll got it

[Beginer]

you can also try breaking it down by playing different combinations of the limbs.

Starting with just two limbs; play feet only, LH/LF only, RH/RF only, LH/RF, RH/LF. Then add one more limb; so the feet with just RH, feet w/ LH, hands w/ LF, hands w/ RF, etc.

once you've practiced all the different permutations - then you're ready to start working everything together.

Practice slow, sit up straight, and breathe...
Thats what I was thinking about right now.. Now thats my next goal.. And not only I should do the foot hand repeatedly, but start to make rudiments out of it.. After that learned, one more hand/foot should be added.. So there would be thing going on between three of you body elements.. And finnaly add the fourth.. I think this way of learning is very good.. Do you?? I mean drummer wich practiced like that should be very independant..

[cnw60]

Thats what I was thinking about right now.. Now thats my next goal.. And not only I should do the foot hand repeatedly, but start to make rudiments out of it.. After that learned, one more hand/foot should be added.. So there would be thing going on between three of you body elements.. And finnaly add the fourth.. I think this way of learning is very good.. Do you?? I mean drummer wich practiced like that should be very independant..

There definitely are various approaches and books for learning independence. Chapin's book was the first book I worked out of many years ago, and many people here recommend Gary Chester's New Breed book (which I'm not familiar with, but it sounds awesome, same w/ the Garibaldi book - so many cool things to work on and so little time). There's also a great book I use that was written by Bob McKee, 'Drumset Advanced Studies'.

For me - 4 way coordination/independence is probably the hardest aspect of drumming and working on relatively simple patterns in this manner (breaking down all of the combinations of limbs) is a solid approach. And as you suggest - applying rudiments to the idea is good too. Working on maintaining a strong, steady beat with 2 limbs while attempting to play different patterns with either one or both of your other limbs can keep you busy for a long time.

Practicing slowly just can't be emphasized enough.

[AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken]

Looks like you got some good responses, but I just wanted to make a comment:

You'll probably find that this is a problem you see somewhat frequently. I didn't have the problem you describe (actually I probably did, but don't remember), but I recall when learning some left/right foot independence that I had trouble separating my feet. If the song or exercise ever called for me to stomp both feet on a beat, I was completely unable to separate my feet afterwards.

The problem is that you're learning. That is: the problem is exactly the same as the solution. It's the mechanism for how your body learns to "do 10 things at once" - one or more parts of your body go on 'auto-pilot' while you think about a different part. You've essentially established the muscle memory necessary to perform a move, but you haven't distinguished that muscle memory completely so that afterwards your body knows to stop doing the move. You're halfway there!

[drummerchick435]

Just to reinforce for you and all drummers (including me):

1) go slow (don't worry about practicing to a click at first just to get a general idea)
2) separate all the sections (hi hat, bass, snare, toms)
3) add in sections one at a time (to a slow click)
4) then play everything to a moderate tempo
5) gradually increase the tempo until you get the desired tempo

[GrimmReefer]

Just a little story that may help you. In my first year or so of drumming, i remember spending about 2 hours or so sitting in my parents garage in the 110 degree heat, sweating my butt off. I had the song "Go Away" by Godsmack on in my headphones and i just worked and worked until i could match it. After i had that, my foot and hand were officially two seperate units when i came to drums.

Just thought i would share. Good Luck!

[Sable]

I agree that Garibaldi's method is usually very effective. Just remember to use a metronome and start really, really, ridiculously slow.

[ermghoti]

Yup. 30bpm, divide and conquer, repetition, settle for nothing less than perfection before moving the tempo up..

[druid]

I have A LOT of trouble separating bass drum hits with hi-hats. I have the worst trouble with the simplest beats and it's starting to frustrate me to no end.

Whenever I hit the kick drum off of a hi-hat beat I automatically hit the hi-hat on the kick drum beat. I have tried to slow the tempo down immensely but I still hit the hi-hat with the kick drum.

I doubt I'm making sense with all of this so here are pictures. The 1st one is what I want to do, the 2nd is what I impulsively do.


it really is all practice to correct this one....I have had alot of students in the past do the same thing.....the big thing to do would be isolate beat four...just practice that part ....once you have it down insert it back into the measure...you might stumble again a few times but after awhile you will have that "aha" moment and it will fall into place.

[Matt]

I would add that you should try doing the Garibaldi thing, but "backwards." In other words, since your problem is on beat 4, start on beat 4. When you've got it down, back up one beat and start on beat 3. The goal, of course, is to back up all the way to beat 1, and still be able to get beat 4 (or whatever beat is giving you the problem) right by the time you get to it. I do this all the time with my students. Sometimes, they are only having trouble with one particular beat, so instead of wasting time doing the same part of the measure they already know, I'll split the measure in half and have them work on each part seperately. This is usually much more manageable, and proves to them that they are capable of playing what is written, and just need to put it all together through repetition.

I would second Wavelength's suggestion, too. When all else fails and you can't think about counts and independence at the same time, the most basic way to break it down is to simply play the notes one at a time from left to right, and see them as either hitting by themselves or hitting together. When you're comfortable with the physical feeling of this, reintroduce the counting and make sure the rhythm is correct.

[Levon's Pocket]

In addition to the "slow down the tempo" advice, you might want to consider a groove practice technique I got from David Garibaldi's Future sounds.

1) Set the metronome at desired tempo

2) Play the first beat of the measure

3) Let the metronome run to the end of the measure, and play the first beat again.

4) Repeat 1-2-3 until you're comfortable

4) Start adding either 8th notes (or 16th depending on the groove) one by one. Wait until you're comfortable before adding another note to the groove.

Much better explanation in the book. Hope this is somehow clear anyway.

David also suggests to count aloud.
Haven't got the book, but this is exactly what I've been doing when trying out a new groove or pattern. Not because I thought I'd "invent" something cool for practice, but because my independence is poor and I'm forced to do it this way. Trying all together makes me fall off the throne no matter how slow I set the metro. Highly recommended for anyone out there struggling with independence IMHO.

[Enlighted]

Im new to this forum and see a lot of nice responses to the problem.
First this is a practice issue but I have a simple solution to your problem

try playin this slowly


the pattern will be And A 1

And play on the hi hats

A play on the kick

1 play on both hi hats and kick


You can play And A 1 And A 2 And A 3 And A 4 ( then just keep repeating to smooth out the action between foot and hand)

The 4 e and you are trying to achiev is just the reverse of this.