The secret techinique no one wants to talk about!

[webstercat]

Memory! Forget the chops and foot speed, what does it matter if you can't remember the arrangement?

For all the thousands of post about chops I'd like to hear from experienced drummers on the process of remembering long complicated arrangements. Reading I understand but I've always been amazed at the skill of remembering long intricate arrangements where the drummer has to play a lot of unison lines and get all the kicks and accents it the correct places.
A sample example is this rather short click of Weckl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmykCWMPWvE

I did read where Weckl said he didn't feel he could play something until he could sing it.

Maybe that is a clue.

I posted the thread a few weeks and not a single person responded. Why!

Thanks for your input!

[Garvin]

Well, that's an interesting question. I'm not a reader, but I've played a lot of Afro-Cuban and West African music and I can tell you that there are an incredible amount of choreographed, or unison type breaks and parts to that music. It is always learned by memory.

Check out this clip at 5:08 and you'll hear an exceptionally long break http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhY7MnSMlbQ

My memory works like this. If I'm learning a 1-2 minute choreography (that's what we call them), I always start with the break, or signal to go into the change. I learn the choreography phrase by phrase and gradually piece it together until I can play the whole thing without any accompanying instruments. Obviously you don't want to do this at a rehearsal, but learn your part seperately then put it all together once everyone has done their homework. It could take ten minutes or ten hours to get it right, so you don't want to be wasting anyone elses time.

I guess the main thing is just taking the time to do it. Once you've really memorized something though, it really tends to stick with you. I remember things I haven't played in years simply because I went through the process of ingraining it in my memory.

[Wavelength]

I have a highly visual memory, and usually remember what certain rhythms look like when notated. Some people remember what the rhythm sounds like, some remember what it feels like -- ideally you should have a firm notion of all three aspects. Memory is a very personal thing, and you have to figure out your own ways of remembering things effectively.

[IDDrummer]

Interesting question. I asked Alan White the same question about some of the complicated Yes arrangements, and he just said practice it til you remember it!

[NUTHA JASON]

structural memory is an essential skill of drumming like tempo memory or keeping tempo. its easy to learn a chop or rudiment because the thing you are learning is clear but these other concepts are more abstract. learning rudiments is like buying roses and chocloate ... not to hard to understand and do, learning temo and structure is more like dating... you just have to keep trying. how did you learn how to hold a steady tempo? apply the answer to this question to yours.

j

[joeysnare]

with me i find its a muscle memory thing,once i know a song i kinda play it subconsciencly,its weird i know, i play in a daze i dont concentrate i just let my body do what it knows how to do.

[JAM]

Ever watch Dennis Chambers go from one fusion band to another and play extremely long, complicated arrangements by memory. I think he's gifted in the memory department.

[dea]

The trick is to come up with an abbreviated layout of your song ( and I mean abbreviated ). The Art of Bop Drumming, or Beyond Bop has examples of this shorthand. I used these examples and tailored them according to my conceptual and memory skills - which is getting worse by the day with age. Hehehe...

Taking advantage of colors, and your own custom notational inventions to trigger your memory. It should not be busy. It should visually flow with minimal thought and keep you at the right place ( color is great to help you visualize your transitions ).

A crude example would be something like,

intro(4bars) | verse(4bars) | chorus(4bars) | solo-sax(4bars) | solo-fill-drum(2bar) | solo-sax(2bars) | solo-fill-drum(2bars) | verse(4bars) | coda, or whatever, etc.

It should be paragraphic in nature, i.e. lay them out horizontally with a consistant number of bars per line. Remember, you want to trigger your mind to flow, not force you to think.

I apologize for iterating throughout this explaination.

Oh yes... Don't include drum notation. Each individual drum fill, or solo should be laid out somewhere else. This is to only keep you on track during your song.

Good luck.

[webstercat]

how did you learn how to hold a steady tempo? apply the answer to this question to yours.
j

Tempo can be somewhat flexible and work. Been working on some David Garibaldi funk stuff and the tempos increase at the end of many songs. I learn tempo by playing with others and tracks.

I suppose the more arrangements you learn the better you are at it, like other skills. I just read so little about it and many times that is the most impressive aspect of a person's playing. Who hasn't been under the pressure to get the arrangement right and not have everyone waiting on you to learn your part. I think it may be one of the most important and overlook gifts a drummer can have.

Thanks for the post!

[fat in the middle]

Good question
I tend to write or scribble things down making a cheat sheet, making a time line of the tune, adding dots even, grooves tempo changes etc.. and after enough time i will remember. Like Wavelength, I too have a visual memory, and can even remember the cheat sheet. Little diagrams even work like little eye glasses to keep head up etc...My teacher from past, told me a good exercise is to transpose backwards...never tryed it.

[Erik Lund]

I remembered 160 peoples' names in about 15 minutes and won a plane ticket to anywhere in the country. I used to work at the top sushi restaurant in the country as the head waiter and knew everyone who came in and their preferences... I had a few parties where I memorized everyone's name and their birthday, just 'cause I felt like it...


I am going to Europe for a month on a tour with a band this November because I have no problem memorizing anything. I had about 3 hours prior to the audition to learn the song - I wrote out a rough sketch - with a few parts intricately listed - I played to a click - which I'd never really done (how hard could it be?!?!?!) and nailed each song and according to the band - I played the songs better than the guy who had been playing them for 8 months...

Memorizing is a huge benefit - either in music or business or in the food industry or anything else. If you can make a point to remember something that might possibly be overlooked, you will make a huge impression. I once remembered a sushi customer's name only because I saw a badge in his wallet. I saw him 8 months later and said "Do you want another Sapporo, Michael?" and he later tipped me $100 just because I remembered his name and drink...



GRADY TATE used to get called to a recording session and they'd run through the song. Grady would only play the beat with "time" on the cymbal.... The second time through the song (when they made it a "take") Grady Tate would be playing all sorts of inflections and fills - totally to the music. He'd memorized the songs and all of their hits in the arrangement....Just had a knack for knowing where someone wanted all those hits....

[ablethevoice]

with me i find its a muscle memory thing,once i know a song i kinda play it subconsciencly,its weird i know, i play in a daze i dont concentrate i just let my body do what it knows how to do.

I was reading this thread without any intention of making a comment on it until I read this post. That's exactly how I played! Learning a new song was a bit like learning how to ride a bike. Because I taught myself to play and all new songs were learned by ear, it was muscle memory with me as well. I never learned how to read music BTW. All the way to the end of my career, it was just listen to the piece, find the groove and breaks... then play them. *shrugs* for me it was easy.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

In an interview I read with Neil Peart, he said to learn to sing and not to count time when playing. I can still remember songs from the 60's that I played to back then because I sing to myself as I play. Works great for me. I also learned to hum the bass parts.

[Mr. Pasquini]

structural memory is an essential skill of drumming like tempo memory or keeping tempo. its easy to learn a chop or rudiment because the thing you are learning is clear but these other concepts are more abstract. learning rudiments is like buying roses and chocloate ... not to hard to understand and do, learning temo and structure is more like dating... you just have to keep trying. how did you learn how to hold a steady tempo? apply the answer to this question to yours.

j

Jason, that analogy makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Most of memory is feel for me, ever since I was young feel was my main tool for learning music... While it doesn't work well in chemistry it's great in a groove oriented place.

[dea]

The benefits of singing go far beyond its use as a memory tool - even for folks who can read and write.

Let me explain.

The drums are discrete in nature. When counting, its more natural to retain this discrete feel ( loud and soft ). However, if you sing songs in your mind rather than count them, you will more naturally retain a more analog like feel. Multi level accenting, ties, slurs, crescendo, decrescendo, groupings, and phrasing become more natural and integrated into the piece.

[funkster5TP]

I think it helps if you play with musicians on a regular basis. once a band gets to know each other they soon work out how they will play a peice of improvisational music. for example how long a solo will be or what vamp to play over a solo.

as for certain phrases and stabs in a particular peice of music the best way to do it is to learn every possible variation. play 16th notes in 4/4 and accent 1 16th at a time. for example 1e+a2e, and then 1e+a2e. and so on and so forth. once you learn them all and how to hear them in a bar any peice of music can only use combinations that you've already learnt. also there are only so many possible combinations.

d

[jiltednut]

I like to learn the melody of a track, and then learn where the main accents are. After that I try and build up to a point where I add more to the music. I find that when u add layer after layer and discover the areas in the music to add the layers u remember more because u know the individual track, the layout and where u want to make the presence of the drums known to the audience as opposed to simply keeping time and adding some fills here and there. I suppose its down to taste and opinion on where the drums fit in a musical context, but when u keep thinking "Where can I fit??" in whatever way, u then have a better chance of remembering the time changes, breaks, crescendos etc.... when u rehearse and practice the track over and over,

my two 0.02.

[BrynnerAgassi]

Stop thinking, start feeling.....

Thats my saying, but it does come from practice.
There have been gigs for the most simple songs you have ever heard, I remember the to certain extent because they are easy.
But there are a lot of ethnic work I had done years back that we practiced for so long on, havent played these in years, but still remember the parts...

Music theory really has a lot to do with it to, just having the experiance in music and the ability to just feel the song and know where its going while your playing, really helps when not having played the parts in a while.

[a1DrummerT]

Well, that's an interesting question. I'm not a reader, but I've played a lot of Afro-Cuban and West African music and I can tell you that there are an incredible amount of choreographed, or unison type breaks and parts to that music. It is always learned by memory.

Check out this clip at 5:08 and you'll hear an exceptionally long break http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhY7MnSMlbQ

My memory works like this. If I'm learning a 1-2 minute choreography (that's what we call them), I always start with the break, or signal to go into the change. I learn the choreography phrase by phrase and gradually piece it together until I can play the whole thing without any accompanying instruments. Obviously you don't want to do this at a rehearsal, but learn your part seperately then put it all together once everyone has done their homework. It could take ten minutes or ten hours to get it right, so you don't want to be wasting anyone elses time.

I guess the main thing is just taking the time to do it. Once you've really memorized something though, it really tends to stick with you. I remember things I haven't played in years simply because I went through the process of ingraining it in my memory.

yea piece it togehter..but mostly just know where you are in the piece...dont focus on playing the right notes but let it just happen ..eh..bad explanation

[Garvin]

yea piece it togehter..but mostly just know where you are in the piece...dont focus on playing the right notes but let it just happen ..eh..bad explanation

That's a good point that I left out of my response the other day. Technique (the right notes) shouldn't even be a consideration when you are at this point of memorization. Technique should be completely internalized and natural. Not to the point of being lazy, but you really shouldn't have to TRY to be getting the right sound at this point. All of the effort should be put into memorizing the structure or path of the piece. Maybe if your technique is weak or still lacking you can go back and work on that later, but I think for the purposes of memorization, you should be concentrating on only the one thing.

This is mainly my opinion for percussion parts (djembe, timbale, conga) technique is a lifelong pursuit, but you should have your own sound reasonably dialed in by the time you are tackling large choreographies.

[grue]

quiting weed is a technique?

[elpol]

quitting weed is a technique?
better hurry, it's affecting your spelling... ;-)

seriously though, so many different brains and so much great input. one concept that i have always kept close to me is music as language:

we speak, we communicate through music. therefore, in order to fully understand what we are saying/hearing, we make the effort to learn the language. some of us have better skills at language than others. it certaily doesn't call intelligence,into question, i think it more refers to personal strengths and how each of us perceives the flow of information coming in. some of us simply have to work harder than others in order to achieve the same outcome as others who appear 'supernatural' or something of the kind.

whether visual or aural, we also utilize our experience to allow us to anticipate outcomes. clearly, those who have 'more experience' will appear to have an advantage in anticipating an outcome correctly.

in my experience, the trick is coming to grips with how we each learn and retain information. and, never forget the value of sensible and constructive practising.

still, i really do have a hard time with people who have photographic memory. it's really hard to win arguments with them. it's just not fair...

[oops]

Just to bump this thread, with a bit of a different spin:

I'm usually fine with song forms, I can play through the different sections, I get lost sometimes, but it's not usually a problem. The problem I'm having right now is of a different calibre.

I've started transcribing some Bill Stewart comping figures, I pretty much just took 2 choruses of a John Scofield blues he plays over, and wrote it out. Now I can go through and read it straight off the page fine, I can play it up to speed, even read it while the track is playing in the background and it's good.

How can I internalize these ideas? I've been working slowly, just getting the 1st bar down, then the 2nd, then adding the next 2 and so on, but I want to memorize a big block (24 bars in this case) so that I can start playing around with it, working off the ideas, and I don't have to keep referring to the chart I wrote.

Any ideas? Should I work on singing the part I'm playing first? Should I memorize bar by bar, or in 4 bar phrases? I just want to commit it to memory as fast as possible.

[DamoSyzygy]

For me, memorizing is simply a bi-product of practise. Over and over!

[Matty G.]

Well, the form has to be beneath your ability, then it's going to seem 'easy' to memorize. If it's above your ability, it's going to seem 'difficult.'

If you have mastery of 4 and 8 bar phrases, that will go a long way. Once you can play those backwards, forwards, in your sleep, w/out getting lost, even if your head gets cutoff, etc. memorizing becomes a lot easier. Take a jazz tune, once you memorize the first 8 bars, you've learned 75% of it, since most jazz tunes are AABA. Then you learn the B (another 8 bars) maybe a tag ending, and you're done. If you have to add in kicks, that's another story, but knowing the initial form will help. Then you can make connections, e.g., the first set of kicks happens on the 2nd bar of the B section, etc. Being able to sing difficult parts is key. (I heard Tony Williams could sing the whole album "Milestones", including the horn solos.)

Then, even if you encounter a tune that has odd phrases, like 7, 9, or 6, a bar of 3/4, or whatever, you can learn by deviation, as in, where the tune deviates from a normal 4 or 8 bar phrase. Odd phrases are more difficult, though. And there's no shortcuts, though. Experience is the only real teacher, here.

[Matty G.]

How can I internalize these ideas? I've been working slowly, just getting the 1st bar down, then the 2nd, then adding the next 2 and so on, but I want to memorize a big block (24 bars in this case) so that I can start playing around with it, working off the ideas, and I don't have to keep referring to the chart I wrote.

Any ideas? Should I work on singing the part I'm playing first? Should I memorize bar by bar, or in 4 bar phrases? I just want to commit it to memory as fast as possible.

I love Bill's playing also. Definitely, you have to go bar by bar initially. But then put them into 4 bar phrases, 24 bars then becomes 6 different phrases. That's the secret to the great players, is that they play longer phrases that are much groovier. Most amateurs are playing on every bar, and exhaust their ideas a lot faster, just like most amateur soloist's are always gravitating towards the 'tonic,' instead of playing the other parts of the chord.

The key to this whole process is that you want to absorb each phrase before moving on. If it's foggy, at all, you'll zone out, and get lost when you try to play it in real time. So take your time and make sure every phrase is crystal clear in your head. Maybe you'll have to work on the first 2 phrases for a week before they truly seep in. Better to go slow and absorb, than to approximate the whole thing. Next time you're laying in bed, can you imagine the phrase, in it's entirety? Any part that is foggy, is the part you need to work on :)

Another thing that's good to do, once you have some 4 bar phrases down, is juxtapose the order. So A,B,C becomes C,A,B etc. When you can do that, in real time, you'll have completed a major step.

[mrchattr]

There are things that you can do to improve your memory, but just like anything else with drumming, there are no real shortcuts...if you practice memorizing music, you will memorize it, and get better at it, and learn what works best for you.

When I got to high school, I had never tried to memorize a piece. I almost quit marching band during the second week of band camp, because I could NOT get the stuff in my head, no matter how hard I practiced it. It was SO frustrating. But I stuck with it, learned my marching band parts, and then kept working on learning other parts I would find online, etc. By the end of my freshman year, I could memorize music pretty quickly. Band camp rolled around for my sophomore year, and I was the first person in the line to memorize the exercises and parts.

Also, if you keep it up, I find that you can remember stuff from years and years ago. I don't remember every note of the marching music I played a decade ago, of course, but I can still sit down any play just about any song I've ever learned on drum set, including originals from 8, 9, 10 or more years ago, which I haven't heard in the intervening years.

[paramac]

Yeah man, you gonna get an over emphasis on technique/speed and not as much on musicality, harmony, melody, memorization etc. on a drum/ drummer discussion board..It's par for the course...Learning piano and standard tunes and learning to sing tunes has helped me to memorize quicker and I'm still working on it.Thanks for an intelligent sensible post..

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I have always been really quick to memorize lyrics (apart from drumming, I play guitar and sing also), and the really good lyrics are MUCH easier to memorize than the bad ones. Here, I define "good" as "makes sense to me".

"The Gambler" is a perfect lyric, very easy to remember, it tells a story from beginning to end. Bob Dylan's "I and I" has a ton of words in it, but it is very evocative, and speaks to me, so I have no trouble memorizing it. Natalie Imbruglia's "Torn", on the other hand, is relatively short, but the lyric doesn't flow as naturally, and so was a lot harder for me to learn (it is still a beautiful song).

And of course, it is the same with memorizing drum parts. Like everyone said, you should be able to feel where the song is going, but that only works if it is written right. It is an interesting territory, because logically, the composer can do whatever he wants. But there seems to be a natural direction for the piece to go, or perhaps several...

Heavy arrangements are also not always the hardest to remember, simply because a heavy arrangement will keep you on your toes. A 12 bar blues with one hit in an odd place in the 10th chorus can be tougher because you have to count for a long time with no "handles", then suddenly it is there, and it is immediately clear if you made it!

C

[Gyrefalcon]

Has anyone tried using the Method of Loci to memorize a song structure? I am not practiced enough with the method to play around with it, but I see no reason why it would not be an excellent way to remember lengthy and complicated songs.

[stasz]

Interesting thread. I too believe that memorization comes in time like all other things in drumming. I've been in marching band for three years. When I practice mallet percussion for some reason I have a natural tendency to memorize music I'm learning, probably because I don't like playing while not looking at the bars. My point is I've kind of developed some memorization skills and I think there are several keys to it. Like stated before you have to be able to memorize and think of things on several levels (visually, aurally, structurally). Also I believe that things should be memorized into chunks or simplified so that they can be stored in the brain more easily. I was reading a book called This Is Your Brain On Music that talks about the brain's relationship to music and one subject was memorization. The author (a record producer and musician as well as neurologist) said that the brain memorizes things by simplifying them and then using those simplified symbols or representations to remember more complicated things. For example, when a guitarist sees the letter "A" on a lead sheet, they will play that chord. If they've played that chord enough, they won't think of the individual fingers or notes when they see that chord. The chord position and notes of the chord and connected to the letter "A" for that chord in their brain. The letter is the simplified representation of the whole chord and is much easier to remember.

[Class A Drummer]

One tool a drummer can use to increasing their ability is to listen to music. The more you listen, the more beats and grooves you hear. When you hear them enough, it sticks in your memory. When you memorize how the groove sounds, it becomes alot easier to replicate it when you play. I had never realized this until just a few years ago.

[Matty G.]

One tool a drummer can use to increasing their ability is to listen to music. The more you listen, the more beats and grooves you hear. When you hear them enough, it sticks in your memory. When you memorize how the groove sounds, it becomes alot easier to replicate it when you play. I had never realized this until just a few years ago.

Great point. Also important to listen to the other instruments, vocals (including lyrics), and song structure. The more points of reference you have, the better.

John Coltrane said that when he listened to a jazz album, he'd listen once for each instrument; once for drums, once for bass, once for keys, once for soloist, etc. That's the kind of dedication that made him such a consummate musician.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

....John Coltrane said that when he listened to a jazz album, he'd listen once for each instrument; once for drums, once for bass, once for keys, once for soloist, etc......

Wow, that's so interesting. I never knew that. I always have a tendency to listen to drums at the expense of the whole picture, but I never thought of listening to ANOTHER instrument exclusively, and to make a virtue out of it! Cool idea.
C

[Class A Drummer]

Great point. Also important to listen to the other instruments, vocals (including lyrics), and song structure. The more points of reference you have, the better.

John Coltrane said that when he listened to a jazz album, he'd listen once for each instrument; once for drums, once for bass, once for keys, once for soloist, etc. That's the kind of dedication that made him such a consummate musician.

Yeah thats very true. I picked up learning the guitar (a little bass and keyboards too but mostly guitar) and its helped me alot w/ drumming, as has drumming helped w/ guitar. Im able to tell what sort of guitar part or drum part is needed and how they compliment each other alot better than i use to.

[Boomka]

The benefits of singing go far beyond its use as a memory tool - even for folks who can read and write.

Let me explain.

The drums are discrete in nature. When counting, its more natural to retain this discrete feel ( loud and soft ). However, if you sing songs in your mind rather than count them, you will more naturally retain a more analog like feel. Multi level accenting, ties, slurs, crescendo, decrescendo, groupings, and phrasing become more natural and integrated into the piece.

Yes! A quarter note is the entire space between 1 and 2...