Playing 8th note triplets over the Samba foot Ostinato

[tim1987]

Hi,

I am in the Samba section of Kim Plainfield's Advanced Concepts and am find it really challenging, difficult material. I am very stuck on "Samba-Further Study 3", where you play 8th note triplets over the foot ostinato.

The problem I have at the moment is seeing how these patterns fit together because they are two completely separate rhythmical subdivisions. I find that my feet tend to follow my hands!! My co-ordination/independence just isn't up to it.

Is there any method to be able to begin to see how to play these patterns, or is it just dilligent/hard practise? I must admit that I only started trying, but am struggling just to hear triplets and 16ths together.

Thanks

[Jeff Almeyda]

Welcome to the world of polyrhythms!

You need to learn how to hear, feel and play 3:2. Try this:

Play eighth note triplets hand to hand (RLR LRL) with a quarter note bass drum. The bass drum will hit on the first note of each triplet.

Now, while still playing, remove the left hand and keep the right going (and the foot too)

You are now playing 3 notes with your hands in the same space as two with the feet.

Play this many times until you can feel it easily. Learn to play it using any sticking.

The next step would be to play this over the samba ostinato. Rather than trying to figure out every note, just play the samba foot ostinato at the same tempo that you were doing the previous exercise at. While that is going try to play the triplet pattern. Don't try to line up every note but make sure that the hands and feet meet up at the "one" and try to feel it from there.

You should also learn the "polyrhythm formula" but that it not necessary for the simpler polys. (such as this one) Those can usually be felt.

If you have a drum machine, you can program it and hear it from there as well.

[Erik Lund]

One of the best ways to learn subdivisions is to find the number of notes that will fit in a measure with 8th/16th notes that both ratios go into evenly. Spell this out and find where the accents would be - those accents are going to be one limb. The other limb will play the quarter note.

For 3:2 - One measure of 4/4, 8th note triplets get the job done: 12 notes in the measure - 3 and 2 go into both of these.

R.......R.......R.......R
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a
L ...L.....L....L....L.....L



That's 6:4 - half of that is 3:2.


5:4 - okay - both of these go into 20 so I need 5 beats of 16th notes - so writing it out would be in 5/4 at first. Now accent every fifth 16th note

R.............R............R.............R........ ....
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a 5 e + a
L..........L...........L..........L...........L... .....



When working on something like 5:4 - try to get the limb playing the "4" to move evenly and not "snapping" the rhythm - once it starts making sense - that's the goal - get the limbs moving in an even manner.

5:2? look above and take out the 2nd and 4th R - 10 note grouping - 10 note grouping.

You can figure out subdivions this way - using math - rather than put on a metrone and hope for the best.

[Erik Lund]

...I'll look for it tomorrow...

[Jeff Almeyda]

One of the best ways to learn subdivisions is to find the number of notes that will fit in a measure with 8th/16th notes that both ratios go into evenly. Spell this out and find where the accents would be - those accents are going to be one limb. The other limb will play the quarter note.

For 3:2 - One measure of 4/4, 8th note triplets get the job done: 12 notes in the measure - 3 and 2 go into both of these.

R.......R.......R.......R
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a
L ...L.....L....L....L.....L



That's 6:4 - half of that is 3:2.


5:4 - okay - both of these go into 20 so I need 5 beats of 16th notes - so writing it out would be in 5/4 at first. Now accent every fifth 16th note

R.............R............R.............R........ ....
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a 5 e + a
L..........L...........L..........L...........L... .....



When working on something like 5:4 - try to get the limb playing the "4" to move evenly and not "snapping" the rhythm - once it starts making sense - that's the goal - get the limbs moving in an even manner.

5:2? look above and take out the 2nd and 4th R - 10 note grouping - 10 note grouping.

You can figure out subdivions this way - using math - rather than put on a metrone and hope for the best.

I did mention that he should earn the poly formula. But all he asked for was how to learn how to play triplets against a samba.

The poly formula is:

Let's say we want to play 5:4

A: Decide on a time signature using one of the numbers. We'll use a measure of 5/4 time.

B: Subdivide the quarter note by the second number in this case 4

1234 2234 3234 4234 5234

C: using the first number (5), space the accents apart by this number (In other words, accent every fifth 16th note) and then eliminate all the unaccented notes. The quarter note will play five times in the measure and there will be 4 accented hits over that. (Because 4 and 5 both go into 20)

Voila!

Now, what I meant about "meeting on the one" is that you must internalize this rhythym and feel it so that you are not counting every little subdivision. That is the only way to get it up to speed. I

If I'm playing a fast samba and I play a triplet over that I would fall over if I tried to count every little note. In that case, I just make sure that the hit where everything meets (usually "1") is on and then I feel the rest. It's as if you develop the ability to eventually put a limb or limbs on "auto-pilot" and then you just go for it. Because you have worked it out before, you will be able to get it w2ith some practice.

I did not suggest "putting on a metronome and hoping for the best"

[Jeff Almeyda]

One of the best ways to learn subdivisions is to find the number of notes that will fit in a measure with 8th/16th notes that both ratios go into evenly. Spell this out and find where the accents would be - those accents are going to be one limb. The other limb will play the quarter note.

For 3:2 - One measure of 4/4, 8th note triplets get the job done: 12 notes in the measure - 3 and 2 go into both of these.

R.......R.......R.......R
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a
L ...L.....L....L....L.....L



That's 6:4 - half of that is 3:2.


5:4 - okay - both of these go into 20 so I need 5 beats of 16th notes - so writing it out would be in 5/4 at first. Now accent every fifth 16th note

R.............R............R.............R........ ....
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a 5 e + a
L..........L...........L..........L...........L... .....



When working on something like 5:4 - try to get the limb playing the "4" to move evenly and not "snapping" the rhythm - once it starts making sense - that's the goal - get the limbs moving in an even manner.

5:2? look above and take out the 2nd and 4th R - 10 note grouping - 10 note grouping.

You can figure out subdivions this way - using math - rather than put on a metrone and hope for the best.

I did mention that he should earn the poly formula. But all he asked for was how to learn how to play triplets against a samba.

The poly formula is:

Let's say we want to play 5:4

A: Decide on a time signature using one of the numbers. We'll use a measure of 5/4 time.

B: Subdivide the quarter note by the second number in this case 4

1234 2234 3234 4234 5234

C: using the first number (5), space the accents apart by this number (In other words, accent every fifth 16th note) and then eliminate all the unaccented notes. The quarter note will play five times in the measure and there will be 4 accented hits over that. (Because 4 and 5 both go into 20)

Voila!

Now, what I meant about "meeting on the one" is that you must internalize this rhythym and feel it so that you are not counting every little subdivision. That is the only way to get it up to speed. I

If I'm playing a fast samba and I play a triplet over that I would fall over if I tried to count every little note. In that case, I just make sure that the hit where everything meets (usually "1") is on and then I feel the rest. It's as if you develop the ability to eventually put a limb or limbs on "auto-pilot" and then you just go for it. Because you have worked it out before, you will be able to get it w2ith some practice.

I did not suggest "putting on a metronome and hoping for the best"

Although you could use this: http://www.beausievers.com/

Scroll down the page and this guy has a polyrhythmic metronome. I downloaded it to my Mac and it's incredible. It allows you to HEAR the multiple rhythms going at once. It will make the poly formula an academic exercise as this jumps ahead to the actual music part and skips the math.

[JackBennett]

Hi,

I am in the Samba section of Kim Plainfield's Advanced Concepts and am find it really challenging, difficult material. I am very stuck on "Samba-Further Study 3", where you play 8th note triplets over the foot ostinato.

The problem I have at the moment is seeing how these patterns fit together because they are two completely separate rhythmical subdivisions. I find that my feet tend to follow my hands!! My co-ordination/independence just isn't up to it.

Is there any method to be able to begin to see how to play these patterns, or is it just dilligent/hard practise? I must admit that I only started trying, but am struggling just to hear triplets and 16ths together.

Thanks

Hi Tim,

Is what you're trying to do anything like the samples in this video? (excuse the shameful plug this is a demo of a new DVD series im releasing) - but I think its talking about similar things.

www.icanplaydrums.com/latinsample.wmv - its 11mb

(roughly 1/3rd the way through this vid)

I'm sure there are many ways to approach something like this. The way I've always found the easiest is to work the ostinato pattern up to "auto pilot" (as you'll see in the vid), which basically means practice it so much, that you no longer need to think about it, and that gives your brain complete freedom to focus on the task at hand = playing the triplets with your left.

When I'm doing it I'm hearing the pulse and just focusing on my LH being in time with it, im not thinking about the other 3 limbs at all. If anything I find it harder to do this at slower tempos.

Hope this helps, good luck! oh here's a screenshot of what im playing in the vid above..

Jack

[tim1987]

Hi,

Great video.

What I mean is that I'm playing the samba in the feet and then playing alternate 8th note triplets in the hands with loads of different accents. E.g. If I can remember (hope it makes sense):

RlR Lrl RlR Lrl

The accents are in caps; the first step is to play it alternate sticking, then unison sticking and flam sticking. The flams coming where there is a accent.

I tried the thing with playing quarter note triplets over the pattern. I can play the 3 over 2 easy, but it's when I go to the Samba pattern that I end up playing 8th notes in my hands. I'll try the auto pilot idea.

It's a solid book; he goes through the development of three-foot ostinatos. The Samba, Baiao (I love that pattern!) and Tumbao. As well as developing independence in rock, funk, swing, shuffles, Afro Cuban rhythms. That's just the second chapter.

By the way guys, I know a polyrhythmic formula that Kim Plainfield shows in his book. He shows what the numbers actually mean.

For example 7 over 3,

The first number is rhythmic value you’re playing in the polyrhythm, septuplets. The second number shows the time signature and the space between the accents.

For 7 over 3, you're playing septuplets in 3/4, and accenting every 3 notes. If I remember rightly!